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Topic: Where to go to school

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HK_Vol

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Where to go to school
« on: March 15, 2019, 04:54:32 AM »
Excellent article by Peggy Noonan in the WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/kids-dont-become-success-robots-11552604595

Kids, Don’t Become Success Robots
Tennessee Tech is an amazing school, and nobody breaks the law to get admitted.

SNIP:
A few thoughts on the college admissions scandal in which wealthy and accomplished parents allegedly lied, cheated and bribed to get their kids admitted to elite universities.

I bet your reaction was like mine: An electric sense of “I didn’t know that was going on!” followed by an immediate “Of course that was going on!” Because there’s a lot of crazy money in dizzy hands, and there’s a lot of status involved in where your kids go to school.

It must be stressed that this is a scandal not of kids but of adults, fully functioning and wildly successful ones who knew what they were doing.

Here is something I think is part of the story. In the past decade or so I’ve observed a particular parenting style growing prevalent among the upper middle class and wealthy. It is intense. They love their kids and want the best for them, they want to be responsible, but there’s a degree to which one wonders if they don’t also see them as narcissistic extensions of themselves. They are hyper-attentive, providing meticulous academic grooming—private schools, private tutors and coaches, private classes in Chinese language and cello. They don’t want their children fat—that isn’t healthy, by which they mean attractive. They communicate the civilized opinions of the best people and signal it would be best to hew to them.

They aim their children at the best colleges, which are, to them, basically brands. The colleges too market themselves that way—“Well, we are Harvard.” Get in there and you’re branded too.

I believe a lot of parents do all this not only so their children will do well but so they will look good.

They are status monkeys creating success robots.

I’ll tell you where I saw success robots. I go to schools a lot, have taught at universities and seen a ton of great kids and professors who’ve really sacrificed themselves to teach. A few years ago I worked for a few months at an Ivy League school. I expected a lot of questions about politics, history and literature. But that is not what the students were really interested in. What they were interested in—it was almost my first question, and it never abated—was networking. They wanted to know how you network. At first I was surprised: “I don’t know, that wasn’t on my mind, I think it all comes down to the work.” Then I’d ask: “Why don’t you just make friends instead?” By the end I was saying, “It’s a mistake to see people as commodities, as things you can use! Concentrate on the work!” They’d get impatient. They knew there was a secret to getting ahead, that it was networking, and that I was cruelly withholding successful strategies.

In time I concluded they’d been trained to be shallow, encouraged to see others as commodities. They didn’t think great work would be rewarded, they thought great connections were. And it was what they’d implicitly been promised by the school: Get in here and you can network with the cream of the crop, you’ll rise to the top with them.

Here is a school that is an antidote to that. Three years ago I went to a smallish school that enrolls mostly students who are the first in their families to go to college. It was Tennessee Technological University in Cookeville. A lot of the kids are local, a racial and ethnic mix, immigrants and children of immigrants. They were so mature—gracious, welcoming, quick with smart questions on presidents and policy. 

I came away from Tennessee Tech thinking what I always think when I see such schools: We’re going to be OK.

And now, because you’d be lost without it, my advice to students still considering college in the year 2019. Avoid elite universities if you can; they’re too often indoctrination mills anyway. Aim at smaller, second-tier colleges, places of low-key harmony, religiously affiliated when possible—and get a real education. Every school has a library. Every library has books. That’s what you need.

You’ll be with a better class of people—harder-working, less cynical, more earnest. First-generation college students who are excited to be there and committed to study. Immigrants who feel grateful to be there. Home-schooled kids with self-possession and dignity, who see the dignity in others.

Do not network. Make friends. Learn about the lives of others.







TREX

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2019, 06:48:25 AM »
Shared this with a bunch of people.

Thanks

fuzzynavol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2019, 06:54:25 AM »
religiously affiliated when possible—and get a real education.


billyboy75

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2019, 07:34:29 AM »
My brother and my brother in law are TTU grads.  One is an engineer, the other a physician.  My sister lives in Cookeville.   My mother moved there before she died.

I have spent some time there.  The people are normal and refreshingly wholesome.   Much like my chosen town of Greeneville, where we have an aspiring religious affiliated college, Tusculum, which is flourishing and doing very good things.

I could have attended Harvard, one of my law partners did.  He says he got a good education to be the lawyer he is, but he was one of the few conservatives on campus and had to consciously avoid the effort at indoctrination.

I am glad I didn't go.  The Ivy League schools have lost their way.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 08:21:02 AM by billyboy75 »

HK_Vol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2019, 08:12:41 AM »
Dartmouth's grad schools are still okay.
Thayer for Engineering and Tuck for an MBA.
But those are professional schools with students who have been in the real world for years prior - so they have little to no time for this nonsense.

The Tuck Dean told me that two students came up demanding a "safe space."
The Dean simply said "no" - the entire campus is a safe space - everyone is safe to state their own opinions.
As long as that mentality continues, I'll support the school.

As for the undergrad programs, I think they've gone the way of their Ivy brethren.  As for years Dartmouth was known as the only "conservative" school among the Ivy League.  That has obviously changed.


HK_Vol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2019, 08:16:16 AM »
religiously affiliated when possible—and get a real education. 

If I was going to go to a liberal arts college, I'm pretty sure my first choice would be Hillsdale.

https://www.hillsdale.edu/

SNIP:
For more than 170 years, Hillsdale College has promoted “the diffusion of sound learning” as the best means of preserving “the blessings of civil and religious liberty and intellectual piety.” Your support is essential to the College. To maintain our independence in every regard, Hillsdale does not accept one penny of state or federal taxpayer funding—even indirectly in the form of student grants and loans. 


Business Insider: Top 100 Smartest Private Colleges
Kiplinger: Top 25 Best Value Liberal Arts Colleges Nationally
Forbes: Top 200 Colleges in the U.S.

HK_Vol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2019, 08:18:25 AM »
religiously affiliated when possible—and get a real education.

There's something "wrong" with schools such as these?

Boston College, Chestnut Hill, Massachusetts
Kenyon College, Gambier, Ohio
DePauw University, Greencastle, Indiana
University of Notre Dame, Notre Dame, Indiana
Hampden-Sydney College, Hampden-Sydney, Virginia
Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia
Davidson College, Davidson, North Carolina
Rhodes College, Memphis, Tennessee
Furman University, Greenville, South Carolina

Cincydawg

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2019, 08:33:46 AM »
Networking is how the less capable get into high paying jobs.

I knew a guy at work, younger fellow, who asked me every time we had a new VP if he was a member of this or that country club.  Whatever club that VP was in, this guy would try and join (at times they would be elite and not accept members).  Some folks would do anything they could to get noticed and "friendly".

And it often worked.

HK_Vol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2019, 08:41:15 AM »
When my daughter was applying to her school and had an interview, my wife sat next to another mother whose child was being interviewed (at age 5 of course).  She told my wife, "My daughter just has to get in.  Just think of the connections we will make!"  I'm pretty sure that girl didn't get in.

But she was right.  We've made tons of very impressive connections.  But that was in no way the motivating factor in getting our daughter into the school. We wanted her to be in a bilingual school - (and it is the best in Hong Kong).  But parents' motivations can be absurdly callous and greedy.

I've been invited to join prestigious clubs, but turned it down because I didn't think I'd use it much at all - i.e. bad value.  But there are other clubs I would like to join.  I applied to one club about 10 years ago and am still on the waiting list.  I'm told I have about another 15 years to wait.


fuzzynavol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2019, 08:57:19 AM »

There's something "wrong" with schools such as these?

University of Notre Dame...

HK_Vol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2019, 09:02:45 AM »

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/university-of-notre-dame-152080/overall-rankings

University of Notre Dame Rankings

#18 in National Universities
#11 (tie) in Best Undergraduate Teaching
#22 in Best Value Schools
#12 (tie) in High School Counselor Rankings
#27 in Most Innovative Schools
#10 (tie) in Business Programs
#7 (tie) in Accounting
#12 in Marketing
#43 (tie) in Best Undergraduate Engineering Programs


Oh - now I know why you resent Notre Dame:

#3 in Logic

:88:

BrownCounty

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2019, 09:15:34 AM »
Hmm... The article sounds like a lot of rationale.

fuzzynavol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2019, 09:16:25 AM »


Oh - now I know why you resent Notre Dame:

#3 in Logic
Logically, academic excellence doesn't excuse the affiliation with, and the promotion of, the Catholic Church.

BrownCounty

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 09:20:53 AM »
Oh - now I know why you resent Notre Dame:

#3 in Logic

"Logic" is actually a ranked program?

In what sense?  Engineering?  Philosophy?  Linguistics?

HK_Vol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2019, 09:31:18 AM »
https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/university-of-notre-dame-152080/overall-rankings

#39 in Mathematics (tie)
   - #3 in Logic


Best Logic Programs:
For students who enjoy reasoning, a graduate degree in logic will help them understand theories and methods and may prepare them for teaching jobs, research appointments and government positions. These are the best math schools for logic.

https://www.usnews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-science-schools/logic-rankings

University of California--Berkeley
#1 in Logic

University of California--Los Angeles
#2 in Logic

University of Notre Dame
#3 in Logic

University of Illinois--Chicago
#4 in Logic (tie)

University of Illinois--Urbana-Champaign
#4 in Logic (tie)

Cincydawg

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2019, 09:43:15 AM »
I'm sure a secular person can get a good education at Notre Dame or BC or wherever else.  Or not, a lot depends on the individual obviously.

A college degree for many jobs today just indicates that the graduate had the gumption to get out of bed and get to class on time, mostly.

We send something like 67% of HS grads to college.  In Europe the figure is more like 37%.  It's a rather key statistic I think.

gymvol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2019, 10:10:03 AM »


I look at 535 people in both house of congress and I wonder how so many who are supposedly highly educated people can act so stupid without any common sense.

It doesn't speak well for our institutions of higher learning when we have someone like Ocasio-Cortez with a four year degree that couldn't pour water out of a bucket if the instructions were written on the bottom.

I also look at look at how young people act today and I have come to the conclusion a lot of them wasted their time in college because they aren't educated.

I had a friend who worked for a large corporation tell me starting back in the nineties they had to raise hiring requirements on technical jobs to a minimum of two years of college to get the level of education they used to get with high school grads twenty five years earlier.

I guess by now it would be a four year degree.


Cincydawg

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2019, 10:19:24 AM »
I don't view a person in Congress as being "supposedly high educated" at all.  Some are, probably, and many are not.  We typically don't elect highly educated brilliant people.

fuzzynavol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2019, 10:22:45 AM »
I'm sure a secular person can get a good education at Notre Dame...  
Academic excellence doesn't excuse the affiliation with, and the promotion of, the Catholic Church.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2019, 10:29:19 AM »
Why does it need excusing?  If you don't want to go there, simple enough, don't go.


HK_Vol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2019, 10:31:47 AM »
Fuzz - exhibition of bias and bigotry.
He'd be denouncing it as such if a Christian held a view that disagreed with any sort of "progressive."


Cincydawg

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2019, 10:38:19 AM »
The Catholic affiliation of ND and other schools is well known, so I fail to see a problem here that needs any sort of excuse or remedy.

fuzzynavol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #22 on: March 15, 2019, 12:53:13 PM »
Why does it need excusing?  If you don't want to go there, simple enough, don't go.
Whether or not someone chooses to go there has nothing to do with what's wrong with it.  
Again, he asked what was wrong with Notre Dame.  My answer is its affiliation/promotion of catholicism.  He pointed out its academic excellence, and I pointed out that doesn't excuse what's wrong with it.  
I can choose to go there and its affiliation/promotion of catholicism would still be wrong.  Or I could choose not to go there, and its affiliation/promotion of catholicism would still be wrong.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2019, 12:56:02 PM »
It is wrong in your opinion.  Maybe you want an excuse for it, fine with me.

In my opinion, I don't care, a bit.

Thus, there is nothing to excuse, for me.  

fuzzynavol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2019, 12:56:39 PM »
Fuzz - exhibition of bias
 
You consider the moral condemnation of the institutional, deliberate perpetuation of child rape to be "bias?"

and bigotry.

How do you figure bigotry?

He'd be denouncing it as such if a Christian held a view that disagreed with any sort of "progressive."

How much did you pay for that crystal ball of yours?

fuzzynavol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2019, 01:00:24 PM »
It is wrong in your opinion.
 
Yes, that's what people come here to do - express their opinions.  

Maybe you want an excuse for it, fine with me.

Am I supposed to be grateful for your approval?

In my opinion, I don't care, a bit.

Then why did you post asking the question?  

Thus, there is nothing to excuse, for me.  

I don't care, and am not asking you why.  Therein lies the difference.  

BrownCounty

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2019, 01:41:50 PM »
University of California--Berkeley
#1 in Logic

University of California--Los Angeles
#2 in Logic

Cal-Berkeley.  Where the most "logical" people graduate.

And if that's not enough, UCLA.  Where the 2nd most logical people graduate.

US News academic rankings.  Crock.

Cincydawg

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2019, 01:44:41 PM »
Cal-Berkeley is often regarded as the best public university in the country.  That could be true even if the student body is "left leaning".

I still don't see why ND needs some excuse for being affiliated with a religion, but whatever.  If they had what I wanted in a university, I'd go there if they'd have me and I could afford it.

I surmise for some here, having any affiliation with a religion is somehow damning.

fuzzynavol

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2019, 02:03:12 PM »

I still don't see why ND needs some excuse for being affiliated with a religion

It doesn't - it's a successful institution of higher learning.  If someone asks me "what's wrong with it," then I'll tell them.  

You have chosen to dismiss the history of moral failings of the Catholic Church as "my opinion," and ignore the complicity of all its promoters and enablers.  

If they had what I wanted in a university, I'd go there if they'd have me and I could afford it.

It's difficult for me to imagine a scenario that would have me going there, but if I did, I would join the movement to form an atheist student organization that, so far, the university has rejected sanction.   

I surmise for some here, having any affiliation with a religion is somehow damning.

Any affiliation with science-denying, supernaturalist cults/religions is antithetical to education.  I chose to highlight the prominent catholic institution, Notre Dame, from HK's list because I expected its moral irredeemability to be uncontroversial.  HK chose to push back by citing its academic prominence, which is irrelevant to "what's wrong" with it.  You chose to side with his argument, which you've probably realized by now was a mistake.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Where to go to school
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2019, 02:05:10 PM »
I don't have a clue what your point is, and don't really care either.

Maybe if it was a Muslim affiliated school of peace you'd be happier, whatever.

I don't have a problem with Notre Dame or their affiliation.  If you do, take it up with them, or post confusing burfle about it here.

 

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