College football players and politics ....
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Topic: College football players and politics ....

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TexasFan

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longhorn320

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2018, 09:55:48 AM »
Id stop watching
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FearlessF

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2018, 10:19:05 AM »
3 cornhuskers did take a knee a couple seasons ago

in a very RED state
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Mr Tulip

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2018, 10:57:36 AM »
I don't really feel the need to get worked up over the symbolism in "taking a knee".

The patriots that built, formed, and now sustain this nation wanted all voices (however the society defined them in time) to count. Taking a knee is, to me, a reminder that some voices have been deliberately silenced or marginalized throughout this history and that we still have work to do.

I can think of no better way to honor America by acknowledging that we are a collection of differing voices, and that we see our flaws as well as our virtues.

After this recognition, the players return to their bench and engage in the sporting event I came to see. We're all still on good terms.

utee94

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2018, 11:21:17 AM »
I don't really feel the need to get worked up over the symbolism in "taking a knee".

The patriots that built, formed, and now sustain this nation wanted all voices (however the society defined them in time) to count. Taking a knee is, to me, a reminder that some voices have been deliberately silenced or marginalized throughout this history and that we still have work to do.

I can think of no better way to honor America by acknowledging that we are a collection of differing voices, and that we see our flaws as well as our virtues.

After this recognition, the players return to their bench and engage in the sporting event I came to see. We're all still on good terms.
Mostly I agree with this.
However I do know several people that either served in our armed forces previously, or are still doing so, that find it highly offensive.
And not one person in this country has the right to tell them they should NOT be offended.  Their opinions are every bit as valid as the people who choose to take a knee.

Drew4UTk

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2018, 11:26:38 AM »
I don't really feel the need to get worked up over the symbolism in "taking a knee".

The patriots that built, formed, and now sustain this nation wanted all voices (however the society defined them in time) to count. Taking a knee is, to me, a reminder that some voices have been deliberately silenced or marginalized throughout this history and that we still have work to do.

I can think of no better way to honor America by acknowledging that we are a collection of differing voices, and that we see our flaws as well as our virtues.


After this recognition, the players return to their bench and engage in the sporting event I came to see. We're all still on good terms.
personally, i swore to defend the United States and the Constitution against enemies foreign and domestic.  That Constitution begins with the first ten amendments, which is the Bill of Rights, and which describes the protection of individual freedoms, not to be infringed, and regardless of what the majority opinion is... it's what sets us apart and makes this country great.  
i've no problem with individuals exercising their individual rights and though i strongly disagree with them they have that right and it's something we should all be proud of.  i DO have a problem with 'organizing' such an activity.... if someone wants to make a statement, good on them... if someone wants to pressure others into making statements it smells too much like mob rule- and this is the line the NFL flirted with then crossed a few times while seeking some appeasement of both sides... 
if you stand for nothing you'll fall for anything.  this is their 'rights'.  i don't mind telling them i disagree with them while applauding their actions in principle.   

UT-Erin03

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2018, 11:32:36 AM »
If you want everyone to stand for the national anthem, move to North Korea. 


That's all I'm gonna say about that, and I will continue watching my favorite sport regardless of what's happening before the kickoff. 

FearlessF

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2018, 11:35:01 AM »
the flag is a symbol - it means different things to different people

the anthem is a symbol - it means different things to different people

taking a knee is a symbol - it means different things to different people

the folks that started and are still taking a knee should be educated regarding the symbols of the flag and the anthem.

The flag and anthem are symbols of freedom and equal rights.  They symbolize the exact thing the knee takers are protesting about.

If they want to bring attention to their cause, there are just other, much better ways to bring attention w/o pissing off huge groups of good people.
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utee94

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2018, 11:40:10 AM »
Why would you suggest silencing the voices of those that find it offensive by telling them to move to North Korea?  That sounds pretty fascist and dictatorial to me. 

MikeDeTiger

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2018, 11:40:57 AM »
This illustrates one of the most maddening things I find about contemporary politics in my corner of the world.  Maybe I don't know the right people or read the right articles, and maybe I'm a dumbass.  S'been several times in my life I've been sure that must be the case.  So consider the source.

It looks to me like the "left" does little other than focus on perceived injustices, ranting, wailing, crying foul, and just generally being annoying as hell because the world does not 100% fit whatever their definition of Just is, which only makes them sound insane because the majority of them opine relativism, saying what's right for you isn't necessarily right for me, by which they have lost the right to criticize anybody, really, for anything.  

And the "right" does little other than marginalize any perceived problem or injustice, loudly and rudely disputing that any inequities exist or need addressing, and talk at length about how ignorant and confused people are who have any gripes about our society.  

IMO they both miss the biggest part of the point.  I'll happily concede a point to each of them; to the left I'd say sure, there are things wrong with this country that need addressing, and to the right I'd say sure, it's debatable as to what those things are and how best to go about fixing them.  But I'd like to tell both of them, collectively, to not solely focus on the problems they find with the world and each other, and remember to appreciate the 90% this place got right.  I mean, hell...the USA sure ain't perfect, but DAMN if it isn't the coolest social experiment ever contrived.  It has no equal in the recorded history of the world, and just to remind ourselves I sometimes think we ought to go spend time in some other parts of the world, just to...you know...get our attitude's asses kicked a little.  

Never stop trying to fix the 10%.  Die on every hill you can climb, if you want, and fight like hell for what you believe.  But I'd recommend spending the proportionate amount of our mental energy appreciating the 90%.  

UT-Erin03

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2018, 11:53:15 AM »
Just sayin' that I appreciate being in a country where national pride isn't forced or punishable for those who choose not to participate. There's other places where that is forced if someone is so concerned over patriotism.


And I'm not telling  anyone to do anything, merely making a suggestion that's been offered to me at times when I was not agreeing with such things. 
« Last Edit: July 20, 2018, 11:57:36 AM by UT-Erin03 »

Mr Tulip

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2018, 11:53:32 AM »
I would not approve of "protest message creep".

Athletes, both college and pro, occupy a position of status granted to them by the consensual hallucination that what they do matters. Ultimately, they're playing an unnecessary activity that doesn't save lives or advance technology. However, we've given them a platform.

The taking of a knee is brief, minimally disruptive, and on point. Whatever one might think, the action disappears once the game starts.

I would think less of a player that disrupted the environment by, say, yelling over the National Anthem, dancing, wearing other garb other than the team uniform, or expanding messaging activities into the contest (e.g. holding up sideline banners).

longhorn320

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2018, 01:15:37 PM »
Why on earth would somebody protesting a perceived injustice want to poke the bear by kneeling during the National Anthem.

All this does is alienate many who would otherwise be sympathetic to their cause

Its like they want to shove patriotism back in the face of the fan

Its a no win situation for the protesting player so I hope they find another way to exercise their right of free speech
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Mr Tulip

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2018, 02:03:21 PM »
Why on earth would somebody protesting a perceived injustice want to poke the bear by kneeling during the National Anthem.

All this does is alienate many who would otherwise be sympathetic to their cause

Its like they want to shove patriotism back in the face of the fan

Its a no win situation for the protesting player so I hope they find another way to exercise their right of free speech
I guess I don't really hear the message with that hard of a tone.
I hope we can agree that the respect shown to the National Anthem must be voluntary. If not, it's meaningless. Vendors still sell beers during the Anthem. Folks still text and chat. I appreciate those who stand still and cover their heart, but I'd be living in a different America (I hope) if an effort to enforce it were made.
When I see (or hear of) a player kneeling during the Anthem, I hear that as an acknowledgement that he knows of an America where those ideals don't exist. I know that this other America exists, but I don't have a lot of experience with it. I don't feel insulted or guilty to be reminded of it. I'm not directly personally responsible for it, but I add to the greatness of America's future when I accept the responsibility of striving to improve it.

BrownCounty

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2018, 03:25:43 PM »
So first off, if Tom Herman expresses any contempt for this, his recruiting is done at Texas.  So there's that.

Secondly... the National Anthem before sporting events was not instigated as some sort of evil Hitlerian plot.  It was just a nice way for us to come together and honor our Flag and Country before a ball game.  Back in the pre-social media days of World Wars, Vietnam, factory jobs and farming, people had respect for our Country.  Not because they were forced to, but because they appreciated what separated America from other places, and they appreciated the sacrifice it takes to maintain.

Fast-forward to today, a bunch of low-IQ millionaires that play ball for living like we all wish we could do, have found a reason to be discontent.  Mostly due to being goaded by an anti-American undercurrent, which resents being back-seated now that voters have assessed what's going on.

So now on to Lil' college kid football player Humphrey, who of course couldn't attend U of Texas in his wildest dreams lest it be for his exceptional God-given athletic ability that the vast majority were not blessed with.  How many people were denied admission to UT with scores and grades twice that of Lil Jordan?

If being patriotic is just too much to ask anymore, we should discontinue the National Anthem before games.  Here's hoping Lil' Jordan is a just college flash who never plays a down in the NFL.  He doesn't deserve pomp and glory and millions, he deserves the humble life that most of us are blessed with.  And we stand for the Anthem.

Mr Tulip

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2018, 03:45:56 PM »
Playing the National Anthem isn't some plot to authoritarianism. Neither is kneeling for the anthem a rejection of America or its ideals.

You give those players the stage. You give them the "pomp" and the "millions". None of them do anything more than play a game, yet you watch. You care.

NFL players are free to negotiate whatever fee the market will bear for their services. Because of their unique skills (and the affection the public shows for them), that's usually a lot of money. However, some of them wish to use the light they're given to cast light on members of America not afforded those freedoms. Some were shot and killed because the organ of authority thought they looked dangerous. While these are isolated incidents and can't be used to condemn any systems in the whole, America gets stronger when we realize that part of America exists, and we work to lift it up.

BrownCounty

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2018, 04:27:07 PM »
You give those players the stage. You give them the "pomp" and the "millions". None of them do anything more than play a game, yet you watch. You care.

NFL players are free to negotiate whatever fee the market will bear for their services.

I think it's only fair to say no - no I don't watch, and no I don't care.  The NFL that is.

I agree that players are free to negotiate a contract, and I don't begrudge that in the least.  Any country that affords one the right to be a millionaire while playing a game should seem like Utopia to said ball player.  But alas, the venomous re-programming of identity politics can poison the purest of its consumers.

The market is also free to say the heck with this, and the market is also free to create the XFL where players are forced to stand, and anyone with a criminal record is not allowed to be employed.

I'll cheer for the market.


CharleyHorse46

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2018, 04:32:50 PM »
Eh

The world is full of stupid people with stupid notions who get butt hurt over stupid things.

Meanwhile the truly machiavellian ones just love the distractions.

I'd rather live, let live, mind my own business and talk football.

BrownCounty

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2018, 05:37:51 PM »
I'd rather live, let live, mind my own business...

Yeah I agree, that's the best way to be.  I just had a slight relapse.

I think that guy that started the "you know what I hate" thread started rubbing off on me.

I need to play it cool like you do.

CousinFreddie

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2018, 02:34:54 PM »
I agree with Erin's take. 
And, I'll add that kneeling in front of the flag is not a sign of disrespect.  They're not flipping off or mooning the flag or doing a drunken Rosanne Barr rendition of the anthem, and it's not intended against the country or anything any one of us who have served in the armed forces have defended.  It's simply a passive and respectful posture to state that something in their opinion is not right and needs to get fixed in this free society we have.  In fact, it's the kind of freedom we hope to have, to be able to express one's opinion respectfully in a free and open society. 
If we want to talk respect for the flag, what I was taught in the USMC is that you're not to treat the flag like clothing or let it drag on the ground or present it a flippant way or the like.  Yet you see people from all walks of life doing this, using the image of the flag for a beer coozy or a bandana or a pair of pants, and yet no one criticizes them.  I personally don't offended by that, but I find it ironic when you see someone who is literally using the flag as a pair of britches criticize someone else for disrespect for that same flag. 
And, I'll have to say that I'm really tired of the over-patriotizing and over-politicizing of sporting events in general.  It used to be that we had a single national anthem and we all recognized the country and then we got on with the fun of the game and that was it.  Now, you go to a MLB game and every time you turn around, it's time to honor another veteran (all well deserved of course, but still), and in the 7th inning stretch now we're told to stand and take off our caps and honor the country for God Bless America, which we just got through doing 6 and half innings ago with the anthem.  What happened to Take Me Out to the Ballgame?  What happened to being able to go to a game and just lose yourself in it?  A game is supposed to be a fun and carefree time, not a constant reminder of duty and sacrifice.

utee94

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2018, 03:22:28 PM »
I agree with Erin's take.  
And, I'll add that kneeling in front of the flag is not a sign of disrespect.  They're not flipping off or mooning the flag or doing a drunken Rosanne Barr rendition of the anthem, and it's not intended against the country or anything any one of us who have served in the armed forces have defended.  It's simply a passive and respectful posture to state that something in their opinion is not right and needs to get fixed in this free society we have.  In fact, it's the kind of freedom we hope to have, to be able to express one's opinion respectfully in a free and open society.  
If we want to talk respect for the flag, what I was taught in the USMC is that you're not to treat the flag like clothing or let it drag on the ground or present it a flippant way or the like.  Yet you see people from all walks of life doing this, using the image of the flag for a beer coozy or a bandana or a pair of pants, and yet no one criticizes them.  I personally don't offended by that, but I find it ironic when you see someone who is literally using the flag as a pair of britches criticize someone else for disrespect for that same flag.  
And, I'll have to say that I'm really tired of the over-patriotizing and over-politicizing of sporting events in general.  It used to be that we had a single national anthem and we all recognized the country and then we got on with the fun of the game and that was it.  Now, you go to a MLB game and every time you turn around, it's time to honor another veteran (all well deserved of course, but still), and in the 7th inning stretch now we're told to stand and take off our caps and honor the country for God Bless America, which we just got through doing 6 and half innings ago with the anthem.  What happened to Take Me Out to the Ballgame?  What happened to being able to go to a game and just lose yourself in it?  A game is supposed to be a fun and carefree time, not a constant reminder of duty and sacrifice.

But you see, neither you nor I get to tell the people that are offended by it, the people that believe to be disrespectful, that their opinions are wrong.  That's the whole point of it all. The kneeling protesters are free to their beliefs, but the people that find it disrespectful are free to theirs as well.
I can't tell the "kneeling protester" that he shouldn't feel aggrieved by the problems he sees in society, but I also can't tell the "offended patriot" that he shouldn't find it disrespectful.  You don't get to make that determination.  None of us do.
In general, I agree with the sentiment of your post.  But what I highlighted above and what I responded to, are something really key that the "kneeling protesters"-- and those that agree with them-- just keep on missing.
It's important to point out that the kneeling protesters are doing this deliberately, in order to gain attention and press their point.  They're not doing it unknowingly, it's precisely because it's such a volatile issue, that they choose to do it.  So let's not pretend they're just casually kneeling around. I don't seem them doing it during the Budweiser commercial or the Dr. Pepper halftime football toss contest to win $20,000 and free Dr. Pepper for life.  They're choosing to do it specifically during the singing of the national anthem, because they know that is the most highly charged choice they can make, and therefore gain attention for their cause.
All of that is fine from a First Amendment perspective, the government can't throw then in jail for it.  But that doesn't mean that their choices and political statements won't have consequences.  One of which, is that it IS considered disrespectful by, and it DOES offend, various groups of American citizens.
And nobody-- NOBODY-- has the right to tell them they can't be offended by it.

CousinFreddie

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2018, 03:41:09 PM »
I agree that this cuts both ways.  I never said anything about those offended by the protests.  They have the right to counter-protest, of course, in the same passive, non-violent way at least.  No argument from me.

By the same token, of course, I have the right to my opinion that it's not a sign of disrespect to kneel (the text you highlighted).

We should be able to agree to disagree agreeably.  Society should remain civil and we can air our differences.  That's the whole point.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:46:20 PM by CousinFreddie »

FearlessF

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2018, 03:46:45 PM »
But that doesn't mean that their choices and political statements won't have consequences. 


there ya go
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utee94

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2018, 03:57:34 PM »
I agree that this cuts both ways.  I never said anything about those offended by the protests.  They have the right to counter-protest, of course, in the same passive, non-violent way at least.  No argument from me.

By the same token, of course, I have the right to my opinion that it's not a sign of disrespect to kneel (the text you highlighted).

We should be able to agree to disagree agreeably.  Society should remain civil and we can air our differences.  That's the whole point.


But what I see primarily, is a complete lack of sympathy/understanding on the part of the kneelers and the kneeling-sympathizers.
You asserted that "kneeling in front of the flag is not a sign of disrespect" but that's not only a charged statement, it's also a fundamentally incorrect one.
The way to say it, is "I don't find it disrespectful."
Disagreeing agreeably can only begin with text that is open to the disagreement and not assertive in nature.
And while I do find the kneeling mildly disrespectful, I'm not going to turn off a football game or stop watching certain players if they're doing it.  As long as they're doing it peacefully, it's fine with me.  But I'm sympathetic to those that find it offensive, and I know and their rights to enact that however they see fit as long as they, too, are peaceful and respectful.

utee94

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2018, 04:34:24 PM »
But I completely agree on the over-patriotism and over-politicizing of sporting events, which are supposed to be fun, and an escape.

Although I really like the singing of the national anthem, if it's going to become divisive, then perhaps it's no longer a useful activity at a sporting event.

And I also agree that there are people that are paying lip service to "disrespecting the flag" in this specific case, either because they simply want to be contentious, or they are overtly racist, or various other reasons.  Using the flag as a koozie, or as a bandana, could certainly be viewed as disrespectful to the flag.  Similarly, continuing your purchase of a hot dog, or your conversation, or leaving your hat on your head, could also be viewed as disrespectful of the national anthem.  

I have no problem if people apply their views consistently, but calling out NFL players for kneeling, while simultaneously purchasing a soft pretzel and stuffing your pie hole with it during that song, is hypocrisy of a high order.

CousinFreddie

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2018, 04:43:27 PM »
But what I see primarily, is a complete lack of sympathy/understanding on the part of the kneelers and the kneeling-sympathizers.
You asserted that "kneeling in front of the flag is not a sign of disrespect" but that's not only a charged statement, it's also a fundamentally incorrect one.
The way to say it, is "I don't find it disrespectful."
Disagreeing agreeably can only begin with text that is open to the disagreement and not assertive in nature.
And while I do find the kneeling mildly disrespectful, I'm not going to turn off a football game or stop watching certain players if they're doing it.  As long as they're doing it peacefully, it's fine with me.  But I'm sympathetic to those that find it offensive, and I know and their rights to enact that however they see fit as long as they, too, are peaceful and respectful.
I was just stating my opinion, and whether I put "I don't find it" in front of that opinion or not changes nothing - it's just an opinion. 

I am not offended by the kneeling, and think they have a right to do so, and expressed that as opinion that "it's not a sign of disrespect".  Obviously that's a subjective statement and an expression of my point of view. 

I didn't say anything about those who feel differently.  They obviously have the right to their opinions, and I don't need them to say "I find it to be" in front "it's a show of disrespect" for their opinion to be legitimate.

Believe me, I am related to a number of people who are offended, and I don't think anything lesser of them because they are.  It's their right to be offended.  But I'm not.

utee94

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2018, 07:05:33 PM »
Fair enough.

Kneeling when the national anthem is played is disrespectful.


CousinFreddie

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2018, 07:26:19 PM »
Fair enough.

longhorn320

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2018, 07:55:04 PM »
Simper Fi Fred

Hoooo Ra
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CousinFreddie

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2018, 08:04:58 PM »
Semper Fi 320


 

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