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Topic: Shouldn't we do likewise?

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fuzzynavol

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2018, 03:32:46 PM »
There are a lot of people that believe that these are Muslim extremists and their violence, in their minds, is done in the name of god.
 
That's the only reasonable explanation for their actions.  There aren't millions of sociopaths in that region of the world, just millions of people who are wrong about god.  Just like Christians are wrong.  It's just that their ideology doesn't presently call for violence.  
Muslims reliably shout "Allahu Akbar" when they're in the process of committing suicide.  Now that's belief.  

Either way, we don't deport people for having thoughts, unless those thoughts translate into breaking the law.

Agreed.  

We should use logic and reason to expose Islam for what it is.  And atheists seem to be the only people in a position to do that.  Since Christians aren't aren't in a position to criticize religious beliefs, they have to lie themselves into believing that Islam isn't a religion (even thought it's a supernaturalist ideology that promises immortality).  

VolRage

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2018, 06:00:36 PM »
Pitch, allah is not God just as buddha isn’t God. 

fuzzynavol

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2018, 07:33:36 PM »
Pitch, allah is not God just as buddha isn’t God.

How dare you, sir.  Allah is every bit as much of a god as Zeus, Thor, Jesus, Ra, Venus, Yahweh, or any of the thousands of others that have come from the imagination of man.  

katmai

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2018, 08:40:33 PM »
It is not a religion:

https://pjmedia.com/blog/is-islam-a-religion/
You may not like it, but it would be impossible for you to find any US legal precedent that disputes Islam's standing as a religion.  One of the few things that you and fuzzy may agree on is that the world would be a better place if Islam didn't exist, but that doesn't change the fact that the very first statement in the Bill Of Rights would prevent this in the US: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
If the imam's or the mosques are posing a real, imminent threat to Austria, there should be plenty of other laws that directly address that threat.

billyboy75

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2018, 08:58:30 PM »
Obviously, I understand that.  I function at a higher level than 6th grade.

What would be needed, and I concede it is unlikely to ever happen, is for an appropriate lawsuit to be brought against a Islamic mosque preaching hate and inciting violence to be sued, civilly or criminally, with the allegation being made that it is not a "reliigion," but something else, such as a political movement, a militaristic philosophy, or a philosophy in general, with religion being a mere pretense.  It would also allege that hate speech, sedition, and jihad are not protected speech under the first amendment.

Then, you put into evidence expert testimony in re the above from scholars and those who have suffered under it, and those who have seen and heard it happen.  You introduce tapes or video of sermons calling for death to non-muslims, subjugation of nonbelievers, extermination of apostates, extermination of gays and deniers, etc etc etc, in order to show it is either not a religion or that it is preaching that its followers engage in acts of violence, murder, illegal discrimination, etc etc, and give the court the option to find that it isnt a religion, or even if it is, that its violent message urging violence, discrimination and mass murder is not protected by the first amendment.

It is a case that, IMO, can be proven.

DunkingDan

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2018, 09:10:07 PM »
You may not like it, but it would be impossible for you to find any US legal precedent that disputes Islam's standing as a religion.  One of the few things that you and fuzzy may agree on is that the world would be a better place if Islam didn't exist, but that doesn't change the fact that the very first statement in the Bill Of Rights would prevent this in the US: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
If the imam's or the mosques are posing a real, imminent threat to Austria, there should be plenty of other laws that directly address that threat.
There has been several churches and synagogues in NE Pa, who have had their services disrupted and violent threats made to the congregations my members of ''The religion of peace''. So far the authorities have done nothing and the MSM will not talk about it.

Most of the mosques in this country are breeding grounds for future problems 
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

fuzzynavol

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2018, 10:36:30 PM »
with the allegation being made that it is not a "religion," but something else, such as a political movement, a militaristic philosophy, or a philosophy in general, with religion being a mere pretense.
 
The arrogance here is so galling.  If anything, Islam is MORE of a religion than Christianity.  It's believers are far more devout - so fully convinced that so many gladly blow themselves up to get to Paradise.  How many Christians would be confident enough to do that, if their doctrines happened to call for it?  

katmai

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #37 on: June 14, 2018, 02:52:41 AM »
There has been several churches and synagogues in NE Pa, who have had their services disrupted and violent threats made to the congregations my members of ''The religion of peace''. So far the authorities have done nothing and the MSM will not talk about it.

Most of the mosques in this country are breeding grounds for future problems
I am not familiar with the situation in NE PA, but my point is that there are already laws that deal with individuals that disrupt and threaten people, whether it is enforced in your situation or not.  The same goes for the examples that billyboy cites.  We already have laws in place to address those that pose a threat to our country.  They can't hide under the cloak of religious freedom.  
If every country passed the same law that Austria did, and applied it to all religions, then there could be no missionary work and no religious-affiliated relief work anywhere in the world.   I don't want those kind of restrictions put on our religious freedoms here in the US. 

P1tchBlack

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #38 on: June 14, 2018, 05:14:42 PM »
Pitch, allah is not God just as buddha isn’t God.
According to Muslims, Allah is God and the Christian deity isn't god.  To me, it's all equally nonsensical.

Muslims believe that Christians are as wrong as Christians believe they are right and vice versa.

billyboy75

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2018, 05:28:33 PM »
Compare and contrast the Koran with the New Testament.

billyboy75

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #40 on: June 14, 2018, 05:29:44 PM »
What other religion teaches that you must submit to it or die?

What other religion teaches that if you drop out and renounce it, you must die?

P1tchBlack

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #41 on: June 14, 2018, 05:43:32 PM »
What other religion teaches that you must submit to it or die?

What other religion teaches that if you drop out and renounce it, you must die?
There are varying levels of crazy concepts in all religions.  Is 72 virgins a little crazier than transforming water into wine or the dead coming back to life?  Probably, but no religion really has a leg to stand on in the 'crazy' argument.
Don't get me started on Mormons....

VolRage

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #42 on: June 14, 2018, 05:47:41 PM »
Fuzzy quote:
Muslims reliably shout "Allahu Akbar" when they're in the process of committing suicide.  Now that's belief.  

Fuzz, it appears you might be saying that Christian faith isn’t as strong as muslim faith simply because we don’t scream “God is good” and then blow ourselves up in a public place while also trying to take everyone out around us. I guess atheists believe blowing yourself up and the innocent people around you is as admirable quality. If so, then maybe your atheist beliefs aren’t very strong either since none of you blow yourselves up while screaming “something from nothing is good” or maybe “Darwinism is good”. Outside of that I'm not sure what you would scream beforehand.   

P1tchBlack

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #43 on: June 14, 2018, 05:57:39 PM »
Fuzzy quote:
Muslims reliably shout "Allahu Akbar" when they're in the process of committing suicide.  Now that's belief.  

Fuzz, it appears you might be saying that Christian faith isn’t as strong as muslim faith simply because we don’t scream “God is good” and then blow ourselves up in a public place while also trying to take everyone out around us. I guess atheists believe blowing yourself up and the innocent people around you is as admirable quality. If so, then maybe your atheist beliefs aren’t very strong either since none of you blow yourselves up while screaming “something from nothing is good” or maybe “Darwinism is good”. Outside of that I'm not sure what you would scream beforehand.  
Fuzz, it appears you might be saying that Christian faith isn’t as strong as muslim faith simply because we don’t scream “God is good” and then blow ourselves up in a public place while also trying to take everyone out around us.

Clearly, but it's not your fault.  If you were offered 72 virgins, maybe you'd be a little more enthusiastic.  All Christians get is eternity with their in-laws.

DunkingDan

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #44 on: June 14, 2018, 06:35:27 PM »
I am not familiar with the situation in NE PA, but my point is that there are already laws that deal with individuals that disrupt and threaten people, whether it is enforced in your situation or not.  The same goes for the examples that billyboy cites.  We already have laws in place to address those that pose a threat to our country.  They can't hide under the cloak of religious freedom.  
If every country passed the same law that Austria did, and applied it to all religions, then there could be no missionary work and no religious-affiliated relief work anywhere in the world.   I don't want those kind of restrictions put on our religious freedoms here in the US.
Katman it has happened in other places as well. The threats are covered by others laws yes, but delivered by a mob that fits a pattern of behavior gives one pause. Likewise the MSM and ingrained institutionalized aversion to begin internal surveillance/spying of mosques where a lot of radicalization and plots are fostered is a public safety failure.
Are their good Muslims? Yes, in secular terminology,  but the radicals are a major concern and their numbers are significant 
President Harry S. Truman said: “The fundamental basis of this nation’s laws was given to Moses on the Mount.  The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings…  If we don't have the proper fundamental moral background, we will finally wind up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the state.”

fuzzynavol

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #45 on: June 14, 2018, 09:55:50 PM »
What other religion teaches that you must submit to it or die?

Well, Christianity teaches you that you must submit to it or face an eternity being tortured in Hell, so I don't get where all your self-righteousness comes from.  

What other religion teaches that if you drop out and renounce it, you must die?

I'm not aware of any others, but all religions are different.  Are you saying that theological uniqueness disqualifies them from being a religion?  If so, what other religion recognizes Jesus Christ as its messiah?  According to your logic, since there are no others, then therefore Christianity isn't a religion.  

fuzzynavol

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Re: Shouldn't we do likewise?
« Reply #46 on: June 14, 2018, 10:04:48 PM »
Fuzzy quote:
Muslims reliably shout "Allahu Akbar" when they're in the process of committing suicide.  Now that's belief.  

it appears you might be saying that Christian faith isn’t as strong as muslim faith simply because we don’t scream “God is good” and then blow ourselves up in a public place while also trying to take everyone out around us.
 
I'm not saying the faith is stronger (Islam vs. Christianity), I'm saying the faith of the followers of Islam is more devout.  I don't think as many Christians, gun-to-their-head, are such "true believers" that they're willing to die for their faith.  

I guess atheists believe blowing yourself up and the innocent people around you is as admirable quality.
 
You'd be guessing wrong.  There's nothing admirable about religious-inspired suicide, ignorance, gullibility, conformity or violence against innocents.  

If so, then maybe your atheist beliefs aren’t very strong either since none of you blow yourselves up while screaming “something from nothing is good” or maybe “Darwinism is good”
 
Atheism is the absence and/or rejection of supernaturalist beliefs.  There is no doctrine of atheism - nothing one is required to believe.  It's simply not being persuaded by the obvious lies of others.  

 

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