Jamel Dean, who ended up a two-year starter at Auburn, ran a 4.31.I think that's guy who was at Ohio St but transferred with a bad knee?After he verballed to tOSU as a H.S.JR. he injured his knee twice.Then again when he got to Auburn - I think that's him.Just looked him up ya that's him
I think that's guy who was at Ohio St but transferred with a bad knee?After he verballed to tOSU as a H.S.JR. he injured his knee twice.Then again when he got to Auburn - I think that's him.Just looked him up ya that's himYep. If I recall, he was a centerpiece of one of my favorite UM-OSU kerfuffles.
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/college-football/2019/03/102833/after-being-medically-disqualified-by-ohio-state-jamel-dean-bounced-back-at-auburn-to-become-an-nfl-prospect
Yeah, I still don't like him more than Haskins, and certainly not #1 overall, particularly when you just took one last year. Go take Bosa or Williams, and you'll have more pieces when you find a QB worth drafting high, as you'll probably be right back there again next year.I wonder how much of this is just buzz because he's interesting. Like, he's fun to talk about and people REALLY like reading about him.
Before we turn him into a poop sandwich, keep in mind:I don't think anyone is saying he's a poop sandwich. Questioning his long term prospects in the NFL and whether or not he's a 1st round pick isn't calling him a poop sandwich.
he had the best yards per attempt in history
he had the 2nd best rating in history
while rushing for 1,001 yards
And if you believe in Baker Mayfield, Murray did it on the same team in the same offense against the same competition (largely).
538 has its detractors and won't be confused by anyone for having football expertise, but its reputation with numbers and logical regression are fine or better. Here, they compare various statistical college measures that are most predictive of NFL success, find it's completion percentage that tracks best, and then improve that measure to reward players whose average pass goes farther or whose conference DBs are best (since 2011, the Big Ten has tracked as best in pass efficiency defense). The product is CPOE - completion percentage over expected - and it has an argument to make for Kyler Murray.538 is useless garbage.
https://mobile.twitter.com/friscojosh/status/1100870134678327296
The QBs available next year could be epic. I'd wait one. Get Drew Lock in the 3rd if you need a QB. Maybe 2nd.Not sure I agree. Haskins is better than any QB that'll be available in the 2020 draft imo.
No Dawgs of note this year other than the DB. Holyfield ran a slow time but he looks decently fast on the field. But he probably would not start in college next year.
538 is useless garbage.Well he certainly isn't the Gold Standard in player evaluation that he thinks he is
Not sure I agree. Haskins is better than any QB that'll be available in the 2020 draft imo.Rooting interests aside if Haskins feet can keep him out of trouble he just might pan out.Is Murray a plug in and play guy for a decade? - I'm not seeing it.IMO if Kingsbury taps Murray with the very 1st pick he will rightfully earn a place along side of Mike Martz or Marty Mornhinweg amongst the sideline coaching litter.
I'd take Haskins over any and all of those and not have to think twice about it. Trevor Lawrence in 2021 is going to be the next real prize and the best prospect since Luck.
really don't get all the Kyler Murray going #1 overall hype. Yeah he measured 5'10". So what. He's got short arms and small hands and he looks small. He's not built like Russell Wilson. Wilson looked like a MAN day one in the NFL. Murray still looks like a little boy. He's smallish. Not sure he has the arm strength of Russell Wilson either. Everyone always wants to compare a 5'10 QB to Russell Wilson. He's the exception, not the rule. Just because he's succeeded in the NFL, doesn't mean Kyler Murray will. Wilson went in the 3rd round by the way, he wasn't the #1 pick let alone a 1st rounder.I don't think Russel Wilson has that much arm strength, he's just insanely accurate on deep balls. Actually I really don't think arm strength matters that much w/ deep balls. You know who threw a nice deep ball back in the day, noodle arm Chad Pennington. Arm strength is more important in the 10-20 yard routes where the windows are tight. A big reason why Wilson succeeded, well just watch him play. You'll notice that no one ever gets a clean shot on the guy even though he's had some putrid OLs in seattle.
Yeah, Murray is a great college QB in a great system playing for maybe the best offensive mind in CFB- but he also plays in a leauge that plays zero defense and is designed for stat padding. Not knocking Murray, he's a great college player but that doesn't mean he'll be a great NFL player. He has real physical limitations. Not sure he's worth a 1st round pick let alone the #1 pick.
Cardinals would be much better off trading down and stock-piling picks or just going with the surest bet- Nick Bosa- and pair him up with Chandler Jones to establish a wicked pass rush tandem. That'd instantly make them a better team and Bosa is a 10 year starter at a Pro Bowl level barring injury and off-field. He's as plug and play as there is in any draft. Sure thing.
The QBs available next year could be epic. I'd wait one. Get Drew Lock in the 3rd if you need a QB. Maybe 2nd.Lock is considered a mid-late 1st round pick. There are even some rumors that Oakland will take him at #4.
No Dawgs of note this year other than the DB. Holyfield ran a slow time but he looks decently fast on the field. But he probably would not start in college next year.
I don't think Russel Wilson has that much arm strength, he's just insanely accurate on deep balls. Actually I really don't think arm strength matters that much w/ deep balls.This is scientifically untrue. If you've ever played outfielder in baseball, you'd understand better. It's not an either/or situation with accuracy/ball placement vs arm strength. Throwing any ball (including a deep ball) deep with accuracy is good, throwing it with accuracy and greater speed is better.
So the Steelers get a 3rd and a 5th for AB.Turns out not bad for the Raiders who pick up a replacement for Amari Cooper whom the received a No 1 for.What was Belichick offering for Brown?I'd be surprised if the Pats didn't offer more or better picks. My guess is they offered a better deal to the Steelers but they weren't willing to give Brown that fat guaranteed contract the Raiders were- that's really not BB's style- he don't like to pay players- so Brown nixed any potential deal to the Pats. Buffalo acutally came to an agreement with the Steelers first for a trade for AB and he nixed the deal.
What I don't understand is where Oakland is getting the money to pay him at all? The rumors I'd heard was that the team didn't have a lot of money to throw around, and that's one of the reason they tried to get rid of both Khalil Mack and Amari Cooper. Not a salary cap issue; an "ability to make payroll" issue...Not sure I buy that "they don't have the money" argument. Mark Davis could get a loan from anyone and anywhere to raise capital if need be. That team is worth at least $3 billion. At least. If the freaking Clippers of the NBA went for $2 billion on the open market, no doubt about it the Las Vegas Raiders would go for much more. NFL teams are infinitely more valuable than NBA teams, no matter the market. Raiders are probably worth even more now that they are moving to Las Vegas and getting a brand new $1.8 billion stadium.
Get rid of them and rebuild the team with draft picks on [cheap] rookie contracts.
But then picking up AB and giving him a big contract seems to be counter to that.
Yeah that was the issue, it was the best deal among teams willing to give him that big extension.I don't think they over-paid Antonio Brown at all. His cap # averages out to $16 million a year I think. Actually think it was a great move for them. He's as elite as it gets at his position. Even with his new contract they'd only be #3 in the NFL at spending on WR's in 2019 as it stands right now.
Did Oakland overpay him? Sure. But that always gets a bad label, and it's not necessarily a bad thing. They have guys on rookie contracts, and 4 of the first like 34 picks in the draft, so they can afford to overpay for guys. They might sign Bell too, and overpay him. But they'll have them. Then in 3 years, when they have to start paying their guys, they'll cut Bell and Brown. No harm done.
I guess this has become also the NFL Offseason thread, why not.I didn't really like any of the signings except Amendola. Amendola is a hell of a slot WR. Solid, reliable, clutch. Will move the chains. That's if Stafford's ass can find him and hit him in stride on time.
Lions are oddly all in in free agency today. Danny Amendola, meh. But they signed the top rated TE, DE and nickel on the market. Not exactly sure why, but whatever. I guess might as well do what you can while you've got Stafford, and see if it all falls into place.
Not sure I buy that "they don't have the money" argument. Mark Davis could get a loan from anyone and anywhere to raise capital if need be. That team is worth at least $3 billion. At least. If the freaking Clippers of the NBA went for $2 billion on the open market, no doubt about it the Las Vegas Raiders would go for much more. NFL teams are infinitely more valuable than NBA teams, no matter the market. Raiders are probably worth even more now that they are moving to Las Vegas and getting a brand new $1.8 billion stadium.
They made out like bandits trading Cooper- don't think that was anything to do with money. That was to do with his poor declining performance and fleecing the Cowgirls and Jerry Jones for a 1st round pick. I'd have never traded Mack in a million years- but when you pay one defensive player that much money it really starts to hamper the roster. You only pay a franchise QB that kind of money. They made the right choice in the long run, I think.
I don't think they over-paid Antonio Brown at all. His cap # averages out to $16 million a year I think. Actually think it was a great move for them. He's as elite as it gets at his position. Even with his new contract they'd only be #3 in the NFL at spending on WR's in 2019 as it stands right now.I don't think he's worth it at all. He was on a team built around a great OL, great RB, pretty solid QB play, and so he could feast.
Yes- he's a diva. But Mike Tomlin isn't a real coach and Ben Roehtlisberger is the biggest douchebag piece of shit in maybe the history of sports. I'd bet that Brown will get along much better with Gruden and Carr. Gruden demands respect, he's not trying to be your homeboy like Tomlin is. And Carr is actually a good guy, he's not a sniveling cumstain of a human being like Big Ben is.
What I don't understand is where Oakland is getting the money to pay him at all?Ya but who knows with an Al Davis descendant.Don't think Al had the coin to keep up with today's Robber Baron's but he prolly had tons of Apple Stock or simply avoided taxes - that's prolly it
They made out like bandits trading Cooper- don't think that was anything to do with money. That was to do with his poor declining performance and fleecing the Cowgirls and Jerry Jones for a 1st round pick.Cooper has racked up 1,000 yds receiving 3 of his 4 seasons.That's not a fleecing...but I hope it turns into one.He was hurt for a while the season he didn't get there.Seeing as Jerry is prolly the biggest prima donna amongst owners I really hope it doesn't work out.
Yes- he's a diva. But Mike Tomlin isn't a real coach and Ben Roehtlisberger is the biggest douchebag piece of shit in maybe the history of sports.Oh c'mon that's a stretch even for you.Ben's a buttcrack for sure but Brown would be bagging groceries if not for Football.They deserve each other.Brown won't get near the numbers in Oak/LV .He is what 9 yrs in or sumsuch probably his last contract - which isn't to shabby
Eh, he's a terrible human being, but he's a talented one. Carr sucks. Most of the top QBs are just such easily dislikable bad people, Ben, Rodgers, Brady, etc... but they win. Carr might be nice, but that doesn't help you when he airmails another one 5 feet over your head.Derek Carr has had his ups and downs, but he definitely does not suck. He had no help at all last year. Carr is still young, only 26, with big upside still ahead of him. Give him AB and sign LBell and he'll take off imo.
Derek Carr has had his ups and downs, but he definitely does not suck. He had no help at all last year. Carr is still young, only 26, with big upside still ahead of him. Give him AB and sign LBell and he'll take off imo.Aaron Hernandez and Ray Lewis murdered dudes.
Gonna have to disagree big time on the second part. Rodgers is a little whiny bitch whose teammates don't like him, but even he is a FAR CRY from Big Ben. Big Ben is probably the biggest piece of shit in the history of the NFL.
Aaron Hernandez and Ray Lewis murdered dudes.Ray Lewis murdered no one. He covered for two of his buddies that committed murder. Aaron Hernandez was mentally ill and had severe CTE. Supposedly was one of the worst CTE cases ever seen. Both of those guys' teammates actually really liked them by the way. Do any of Roethlisberger's teammates even like him?
Browns trade their 2019 1st round pick and Jabrill Peppers to the NYG for OBJ. WOW. Talk about a power play move. They already signed Kareem Hunt, they just got OBJ to pair him up with his BFF Jarvis. That Browns offense gonna be EXPLOSSSSSIVE.Are the Browns now the clear favorite in the division?
I'm going to LOL at the Giants if they pass on Dwayne Haskins.
Le'Veon Bell to the NY Jets. 4 years, $52.5 million, $35 million guaranteed. Deal is worth up to $61 million with incentives.Could he have gotten at least $21 million guaranteed playing last year barring a catastrophic injury? That's how it should be judged. He should have probably used the same agent as his former college QB, because I think he could have, absent totally blowing out his knee.
Stafford is the anti-Murray, right? And his franchise has surrounded him with pieces, trying to win big during his career - all based on his big arm.I think that's a matter of seeing patterns and turning it into parable.
I hold fast to the idea that a team (NFL and/or college) can be held hostage by elite QB talent.
The Tennessee Vols tied all their flags to the Manning boat and never won their division. The year after he left, playing a diverse offense that utilized multiple players instead of emphasizing one - they won the national championship.
The Lions' flags are all tied to the USS Stafford and it's yielding nothing. His big arm has held his franchise's resources hostage.
But I'm probably wrong.
Are the Browns now the clear favorite in the division?They absolutely are in my opinion.
Fascinating points about Stafford up above, a team being in effect hostage to a great arm.hostage to a contract and a salary cap
Ray Lewis murdered no one. He covered for two of his buddies that committed murder. Aaron Hernandez was mentally ill and had severe CTE. Supposedly was one of the worst CTE cases ever seen. Both of those guys' teammates actually really liked them by the way. Do any of Roethlisberger's teammates even like him?Buttcrack Ben didn't rape anyone,played serious grab ass maybe even attempted to .That doesn't compare to covering up for murder even though the guy that got whacked wasn't exactly innocent.If that evidence was there the league would have ran him and he'd be in the slammer
Ben Roethlisberger is the ultimate finger-pointer, blame defecting, never takes responsibility, it's always someone elses fault- throwing teammates under the bus douchebag in the history of the game. Plus he raped multiple women and got away with it. Even the former pornstar who had the fling with Trump said she was scared to death of Rapelisberger when Trump introduced her to him.
Browns trade their 2019 1st round pick and Jabrill Peppers to the NYG for OBJ. WOW. Talk about a power play move.Ya know the shame of that is Peppers actually was pretty solid last season and I was looking forward to watching him
hostage to a contract and a salary capYes, better phrasing. Big Arm led to large contract.
Le'Veon Bell to the NY Jets. 4 years, $52.5 million, $35 million guaranteed. Deal is worth up to $61 million with incentives.
Could he have gotten at least $21 million guaranteed playing last year barring a catastrophic injury? That's how it should be judged. He should have probably used the same agent as his former college QB, because I think he could have, absent totally blowing out his knee.I think he came out ahead.
Buttcrack Ben didn't rape anyone,played serious grab ass maybe even attempted to .That doesn't compare to covering up for murder even though the guy that got whacked wasn't exactly innocent.If that evidence was there the league would have ran him and he'd be in the slammerrape was definitely "alleged" not proven
Ya know the shame of that is Peppers actually was pretty solid last season and I was looking forward to watching himyou can still watch him, he'll be the guy wearing blue
hostage to a contract and a salary capThe point stands (if it stands at all) in college football as well.
Fascinating points about Stafford up above, a team being in effect hostage to a great arm.What does this mean? Just that having a talented QB and using him a bunch is bad for a diverse offense? That a strong armed QB might be overvalued talent-wise?
The point stands (if it stands at all) in college football as well.well the coach has a fat contract, but there's no salary cap
What does this mean? Just that having a talented QB and using him a bunch is bad for a diverse offense? That a strong armed QB might be overvalued talent-wise?I guess it's a case of departure from what you'd ordinarily do. If you have a QB with an arm like Wuerffel, you don't feel pressured to throw any more than you ordinarily would. We know Wuerffel threw the ball plenty under Spurrier, but that's the norm for Spurrier.
If I give Stafford Brady’s arm strength and Peyton in college Wurrfuls’s how does the dynamic change?
Stafford's always had a big arm, but why not special results? Because he's not a great QB.The short answer is becuase almost no QBs become great QBs.
He wasn't "good" at UGA until his 3rd year as starter. The year after he left, the QB was Joe Cox (who?) and his first season as starter was better than either of Stafford's first two.
QBs become #1 draft picks because of their arms, not their results. Their potential gives scouts hard-ons, because they think that arm talent can be made into a great QB...but it's far from a given. In the NFL, Stafford has a losing record and the only bold stats he's lead the league in is completions (once) and attempts (twice). Not rating, not comp%, not yards per attempt (important stats). The Lions have leaned on him plenty and it hasn't yielded any of their goals.
Everyone wants to gauge QBs by their wins and championships, so their lack of success must mean something as well, no?
If you look at #1 overall QB picks, they all have one thing in common: arm strength. What they don't have in common was that they were quality overall QBs when they were drafted or even developed into quality QBs during their career.
87 - Testaverde (90-123-1)
89 - Aikman (94-71)
90 - George (46-78)
93 - Bledsoe (98-95)
98 - Manning, P. (186-79)
99 - Couch (22-37)
01 - Vick (61-51-1)
02 - Carr (23-56)
03 - Palmer (92-88-1)
04 - Manning, E. (116-114)
05 - Smith (94-66-1)
07 - Russell (7-18)
09 - Stafford (66-75)
10 - Bradford (34-48-1)
11 - Newton (68-53-1)
12 - Luck (53-33)
15 - Winston (21-33)
16 - Goff (24-14)
18 - Mayfield (6-7)
Yes, these were drafted by bad teams. No, they shouldn't be expected to save their franchises. But over a career, as the best of the best, they should be winners. But look, it's a crapshoot. Why don't more guys with cannon arms become great QBs?
Because it takes so much more than that.
I guess it's a case of departure from what you'd ordinarily do. If you have a QB with an arm like Wuerffel, you don't feel pressured to throw any more than you ordinarily would. We know Wuerffel threw the ball plenty under Spurrier, but that's the norm for Spurrier.I think this is to a degree more interesting than the NFL one. And I think that because there's a kernel of truth. Big arm dudes are given more and earlier chances. They get more leeway. That might lead to some poor play. They also get absorbed into more bad situations more often.
With a QB with special arm talent, you feel pressured to use him more, perhaps too much - you may even ignore the makeup of your team. Tennessee from 1997 to 1998 - most of the linemen were the same, most of the same RBs, same WRs, but a big difference at QB. They ran the ball a lot more because that's what the roster dictated, and they won all of their games.
We all know you should play to your team's strengths and the key to what I'm saying is that you shouldn't blindly pass more than normal just because your QB has a big arm, just when you have a great overall QB...and even then, only to a small degree. Even if I have a Brady or a Montana, I need to run the ball plenty.
But the defense improved from 22 points allowed in 97 to 14.5 in 98. They had more rest throughout the game.I shy away from the offense-defense question simply because I am short data. For all I know, running more lowered the pace of games significantly, or the schedule that was easier helped. I don’t dispute that COULD be the case, but to decide it was felt like putting the conclusion ahead of the process.
And how did Travis Henry and Travis Stephens, good RBs, help UT to a better ypc average in 98 than big, bad Jamal Lewis in 97? Yes, Martin's rushing helped some, but still, even if it's a draw, the Travises weren't as good as Lewis.
was it Ford or Houston that was lined up offside?it was Ford. Yup, both gone. Ford is only 27 and Houston 30. Not exactly like either were dinosaurs. Both have lots of good football left.
hell, doesn't matter, they're both gone
The short answer is becuase almost no QBs become great QBs.Joe Flacco sucks. He had a couple years where he played like shit in the regular season then got hot in the playoffs. Fluke playoff runs. It happens. See: Manning, Eli. And just like Eli, everything else about him basically sucks.
It’s a fallacy to isolate one part of the group and say “look how bad it is.” Most QBs fail.
And by this metric, you have Cannon-arm Joe Flacco at 96-67. Dude was drafted for that cannon, has a great record, and there’s just not that much to deduce from it.
Joe Flacco sucks. He had a couple years where he played like shit in the regular season then got hot in the playoffs. Fluke playoff runs. It happens. See: Manning, Eli. And just like Eli, everything else about him basically sucks.Correct. Most everyone sucks. So if you make a list of cannon arms and 25 percent of them were some kind of solid, you’re ahead of the numbers.
Correct. Most everyone sucks. So if you make a list of cannon arms and 25 percent of them were some kind of solid, you’re ahead of the numbers.Most of the all-time greats didn't have the rocket arm. I'd argue the 3 greatest QB's I've ever seen were Brady, Peyton, and Montana. None of them had a cannon. Neither did Steve Young or Drew Brees or Kurt Warner and those are also 3 all-time greats. Elway and Marino were really the only all-time greats with the cannon arms. Rodgers will be in that convo when he's finished for sure. Maybe Favre too, but I honestly think he's a little overrated. He has big stats but he played for 21 years. Favre also threw more INT's than anyone in history and he lost more big playoff games than he actually won. I just have so many memories of the guy choking and throwing INT's in the worst moments of big games.
Haskins has question marks about his ability to face pressure and read zone defenses. But he had some Tom Brady like abilities to quickly read the defense and deliver a really accurate ball.Every pocket QB struggles when they are pressured all game long. Even Brady and Peyton have had some absolute stinker games when they were pressured all game long. No one is perfect. Haskins good far outweighed his bad.
Most of the all-time greats didn't have the rocket arm. I'd argue the 3 greatest QB's I've ever seen were Brady, Peyton, and Montana. None of them had a cannon. Neither did Steve Young or Drew Brees or Kurt Warner and those are also 3 all-time greats. Elway and Marino were really the only all-time greats with the cannon arms. Rodgers will be in that convo when he's finished for sure. Maybe Favre too, but I honestly think he's a little overrated. He has big stats but he played for 21 years. Favre also threw more INT's than anyone in history and he lost more big playoff games than he actually won. I just have so many memories of the guy choking and throwing INT's in the worst moments of big games.I think Manning had a big arm. Warner threw deep a ton. Rogers deep ball is plenty majestic. Montana, Brady and Brees are probably in the good enough arm category.
QB'ing is just about so much more then arm strength. It's really only meaningful when the guy has everything else. Which is why I think Haskins is so special. He seems to have the stuff you really need- good pocket presence, reading defenses fast and making smart, quick decisions and throwing the ball accurately with timing. He just happens to also have the cannon.
Dwayne Haskins carried a team that was marred in a coaching controversy where the head coach was suspended for 4 games, had difficulty running the football for most of the season, lost it's best defensive player for the entire year, and had a mostly terrible defense for 90% of the season- to a 13-1 record.To a large degree, I agree with this.
Let that sink in for a second. He literally carried that team to 13-1 with his right arm. There were games where if he wasn't throwing for 400 yards and 4 or 5 TD's, Ohio State would lose. He absolutely shredded the then #1 defense in the country and dropped 60 on them. This kid just threw for 4,900 yards and 50 touchdowns vs only 8 INT's and shattered every single season passing record in a conference that actually plays defense- unlike the Big 12.
He measured 6'3-3/8" and 231 pounds at the combine. Basically 6'3 1/2. Over 230 pounds. Rocket arm. Deadly accurate. By far the best pure passer/thrower of the football in this draft.
HOW THE F is he not considered a lock for the #1 pick? I honestly don't get it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06yu8jfZwZI
I think Manning had a big arm. Warner threw deep a ton. Rogers deep ball is plenty majestic. Montana, Brady and Brees are probably in the good enough arm category.Manning’s arm was nothing special. Same for Warner. Rodgers definitely has a bazooka though.
I wonder if there’s a selection bias. The guys we think about a “big arms” is in some way linked to that being more notable than their actual success.
Also, if we assume 90-plus percent of QBs are not great, we can look at the greats and realize there’s no pattern beyond just being super good at playing QB. Shoot, that’s the bet, wrong or right on Murray.
The guys we think about a “big arms” is in some way linked to that being more notable than their actual success.This is the crux - we expect the results to match the arm, and it almost never does.
Here's the thing - there are other players in their class, but since they didn't pan out and don't have the name recognition, we don't cite them. (Jeff George, Leftwich, Russell, Ryan Leaf). Leaf vs Manning was only a thing because while Manning had intangibles, Leaf had the rocket arm. Looking back, it was a silly debate, but because of Manning's decision-making and accuracy, not his superior arm strength.
Marino had the best arm I’ve ever seen. Elway probably next up. Rodgers is right in that convo as well though.
Correct. Most everyone sucks. So if you make a list of cannon arms and 25 percent of them were some kind of solid, you’re ahead of the numbers.Isn't this because decision-making and accuracy are hard to gauge?
That's a small sample size. Same for Murray. Good reason to be wary.
In 22 games played and 14 starts, Haskins has thrown for 5,396 yards, completed 70% of his passes, and thrown for 54 TD's vs. 9 INT's. That's insanity.
This is the crux - we expect the results to match the arm, and it almost never does.You misunderstand.
decision-making + accuracy > arm strength
but NFL GMs insist on the arm strength, to this day.
You obviously want all three, but if you can only have two, why to NFL GMs always pick arm strength first?
Hell, doesn't good decision-making and a quick release basically equal out to a strong arm? Think Aikman, Manning, those types. If they know where to go with the ball and get rid of it quickly, a stronger arm becomes superfluous, no?
Haskins had one of the quietest extremely good seasons I can recall. Maybe he didn't have enough "highlight plays"? I'd see a quick blurb with his passing for a completion, fine, done.It was weird. He got a lot of milage out of crosses and screens, but also dropped some pure dimes.
That's a small sample size. Same for Murray. Good reason to be wary.Neither of them were rated as the best pro prospect on the board either.Actually had McCoy been bigger he would have been very good,he had guile,moxie,leadership - he started I believe all 4 seasons on the 40 acres.Maybe the best game manager I've seen in CFB.Let's just have a look at Tom Brady shall we - does Kyler Murray most resemble him?No Murray most resembles Lamar Jackson or Johnny Football,so meh.Murray may make a big splash but that will slow to a ripple after a few seasons
Haskins' season rates between the best seasons by Bryce Petty (Baylor) and Colt McCoy (Texas). How are they doing in the NFL?
You see the Browns making waves? They took Paul DePodesta, formerly under Beane with the A's in MLB. He's turning knobs and flipping switches. There are AMPLE inefficiencies in talent evaluation in the NFL and he might just be the guy to take advantage.Take advantage of exactly what?John Dorsey is calling the player personnel shots in Cleveland :017:.DePodesta was brought in as an organizational guy
Marino had the best arm I’ve ever seen. Elway probably next up. Rodgers is right in that convo as well though.Perhaps but Bradshaw could flip his wrists and the pigskin sailed 70yds.I know I've seen him do it in old Cleveland Stadium about 4-5 times.Flacco is another one he could launch it.Namath had a great arm also of course when your knees are oatmeal you can't plant very well.Testaverde,Kelly,Everitt were others that come to mind.Also totally forgot about Bert Jones,had like 3 great years before ripping the shoulder.He definitely had a howitzer
Take advantage of exactly what?John Dorsey is calling the player personnel shots in Cleveland :017:.DePodesta was brought in as an organizational guyWhat does that mean? He's just an anonymous guy at a desk shuffling paperwork around? Who is supplying Dorsey with information that is unique and helpful?
I'm glad in your enchanted kingdom you understood it.Because it still red the same shitty way.DePodesta has been part of the problem not the solutionSorry, but Depodesta has been a great part of the solution. I suppose you are one of those that thing Sashi had no role in the great position that the Browns are in right now.
You're kidding right Reverend?Not in the least bit. As the architect of the plan to turn the Browns around I am a big Sashi, DePodesta Supportor. No Doubt Sashi had player evaluation issues, but his plan was correct and Dorsey has built brilliantly upon it. The major problem with his plan was the coach that Haslam hired despite most of the front office opposed to it.
Here's the thing - there are other players in their class, but since they didn't pan out and don't have the name recognition, we don't cite them. (Jeff George, Leftwich, Russell, Ryan Leaf). Leaf vs Manning was only a thing because while Manning had intangibles, Leaf had the rocket arm. Looking back, it was a silly debate, but because of Manning's decision-making and accuracy, not his superior arm strength.I was talking about the best arm of the great QBs. I probably should’ve been more specific there.
That's a small sample size. Same for Murray. Good reason to be wary.I don’t really look at stats alone. You have to look at physical traits and how they piled those stats up (system, competition level, coaching, surrounding talent) as well when projecting for the NFL.
Haskins' season rates between the best seasons by Bryce Petty (Baylor) and Colt McCoy (Texas). How are they doing in the NFL?
I'm glad in your enchanted kingdom you understood it.Because it still red the same shitty way.DePodesta has been part of the problem not the solutionNo idea why you're getting pissy. The Browns were a dumpster fire, hired a smart guy to help out, and now matter. Chin up.
Not in the least bit. As the architect of the plan to turn the Browns around I am a big Sashi, DePodesta Supportor. No Doubt Sashi had player evaluation issues, but his plan was correct and Dorsey has built brilliantly upon it. The major problem with his plan was the coach that Haslam hired despite most of the front office opposed to it.OK if going 1-31 over two seasons works for you,great ,tis better to give than receive.In 2016 the drafted 4 wr's and a TE with holes all over the roster.Depodesta was part of that.Dorsey immediately righted the ship after sashi brown oversaw probably the worst drafts/teams since Matt Millen in Detroit.
No idea why you're getting pissy. The Browns were a dumpster fire, hired a smart guy to help out, and now matter. Chin up.Not getting pissy just pointing out an inaccuracy - In spite of DePodesta and Sashi best efforts John Dorsey is righting the ship.In 14 months he got a 1-31 team to one game under .500 then just acquired one of the top 3 WR in football in trade.And acquired free agent Pro Bowl DT Sheldon Richardson - 28 yrs old.And now Vegas has the Browns rated as the 3rd highest AFC to make the Big Dance.I hope they are right,it has been a long row to hoe
You have a really short-sighted scope of things...any fixing the Browns' franchise needed would obviously be a multi-year job. You cite 2018's improvement to a guy that had been there for one year and saddled the losing of 2017 to a guy who has been there 2 years. That's childish. You should know better.You should go on Browns' fan sites there divide between Sashi was an idiot and Sashi put the plan in place that lead to this is great. Personally I don't see how anybody can't see it, but as you can see there are those.
OK if going 1-31 over two seasons works for you,great ,tis better to give than receive.In 2016 the drafted 4 wr's and a TE with holes all over the roster.Depodesta was part of that.Dorsey immediately righted the ship after sashi brown oversaw probably the worst drafts/teams since Matt Millen in Detroit.they went 1-31 because of the coach more than anything else. There was no reason to go 0-16 except for the ineptness of Hue
You have a really short-sighted scope of things...any fixing the Browns' franchise needed would obviously be a multi-year job. You cite 2018's improvement to a guy that had been there for one year and saddled the losing of 2017 to a guy who has been there 2 years. That's childish. You should know better.When you're in a hole quit digging.AGAIN 1-31,better be thought stupid than to open up ones mouth and remove all doubt.You obviously can't grasp what you write of an organization you know nothing about.Two guys getting paid millions of dollars who supposedly graduated form Harvard drafting 4 wr's and a TE with holes all over the roster.Think there are two guys left from that draft 3 seasons ago.Dorsey still had to go out and get two WR's Beckham and Jarvis Landry who had 3 straight pro bowl seasons and a Franchise tag.Dorsey gave the Dolphins a 4th & 7th round picks,that's a steal.He's 28 and had 976 yds his 1st season in Cleveland.These are moves that the previous ebola chimps could have but did not make
I guess this has become also the NFL Offseason thread, why not.Its like the Pats retirement home, or the Pats AAF team, dunno.
Lions are oddly all in in free agency today. Danny Amendola, meh. But they signed the top rated TE, DE and nickel on the market. Not exactly sure why, but whatever. I guess might as well do what you can while you've got Stafford, and see if it all falls into place.
What percentage of first rounders become starters, at least? Is this somewhat equivalent to five star HS players?Most all 1st rounders get a shot to be starters. How many stay starters or produce at a high level is a different question. I'd say that is much less than 80%.
I'm going to guess 80% become starters or significant contributors over a career (other than those ended by injury). If so, that's a pretty good ratio, and suggests NFL teams aren't dumb.
What percentage of first rounders become starters, at least? Is this somewhat equivalent to five star HS players?Playing your first round pick is a self-fulfilling prophecy, though. They get playing time because of talent, yes, but also because you’re paying them a lot of money and you don’t want to acknowledge making a poor draft choice.
I'm going to guess 80% become starters or significant contributors over a career (other than those ended by injury). If so, that's a pretty good ratio, and suggests NFL teams aren't dumb.
Professional teams play a substandard player because they pay him a lot when they have an alternative available who is better?Yup. Happens all the time.
Hmmmmmmm,
Yup. Happens all the time.When we talk about recruiting and drafting, that is something that I think about, but no real solution. We know guys don't get as much opportunity based on those factors, but it can be hard to measure that into something quantifiable. A great example is JJ Watt, who was very lightly recruited and passed over initially by Wisconsin, so he played for Central Michigan. Butch Jones wanted him to be an offensive tackle. Instead, he left to walk on at Wisconsin, found time on the scout team at defensive end, and here we are. What if he played good soldier and never left CMU? Probably no one would have ever heard of him.
GMs don’t want to admit they were wrong and when they invest a high 1st round pick and lot of money in a player they give that player multiple opportunities to fail.
Do you think you could do a pretty good job with draft talent eval and reccos if that were your primary job?I’d love that job and hell ya I think I could do it better than 90% of GMs.
Would you want that job?
Do you think you could do a pretty good job with draft talent eval and reccos if that were your primary job?I'd like a shot at that job and the salary
Would you want that job?
Professional teams play a substandard player because they pay him a lot when they have an alternative available who is better?Uhh, yeah, all the time, and in every sport.
Hmmmmmmm,
Do you think you could do a pretty good job with draft talent eval and reccos if that were your primary job?Depends on the owner. I wouldn't work for Jerry Jones if another job was available. Not that I dislike him or anything, but if I'm the GM, then I need to be the GM. Meddling owners can capsize a franchise faster than any bad pick or trade can.
Would you want that job?
I think it one evaluates a player at say #5 at his position and he runs an unexpectedly fast 40, or whatever else, it makes sense to move him up some, or might.But why? Are you aware of any studies to suggest such an act is prudent? (besides 'faster is better than slower')
If you invest 50X more in a player, he merits second and third chances, especially if you are not playoff bound. That 5th rounder is probably no loss anyway if he didn't show some upside. My own notion would be to get top players in the lines and find "skill players" who would look good behind great lines.Amen. I would do the same. Good RB's look great if they've got enormous holes to run through. Good QB's look great if they've got tons of time to read the defense before they throw. Good LB's look great in run support if you've got a bunch of DL who can shed blocks and disrupt plays in the backfield. Good DB's look great if you have a DL that can get pressure on the QB rushing 4 and not needing to blitz much.
I don't know how much difference there is between the top RB in the league and the 32nd best RB, especially if the latter is platooned and fresh. He is the 32nd best RB in the country, same with QB. They should still be elite. "We" always hear about the Bradys of the world, but maybe the Big Uglies make Brady Brady.
But why? Are you aware of any studies to suggest such an act is prudent? (besides 'faster is better than slower')I'm unaware of any such studies. I'm stating something obvious though, I think. If a player is low ranked because we think he's slow, then he runs a fast 40, it seems rational to upgrade him. If we think he's fast and he runs a slow 40, we might wonder if he's hurt, or is bad off the blocks and finishes, whatever.
. . .Long ago I read a hilarious parody of a Consumer Reports car test. It included such jewels as "Innocent grasshopper impaled on dangerous hood ornament," complete with a picture of the same.
When I started working back in the day, I recall looking at how Consumer Reports evaluated laundry detergents, which was what I worked on at the time. Suffice it to say their techniques were amateurish at best and often misleading as to what tests they ran and how. Some were laughable compared to our tests which had been developed over decades.
Their recommendations were similarly laughable, to us, even if in cases they liked one of our products. The folks who did the work were off doing TVs or vacuum cleaners the next week. They just wanted to look impressive and sell magazines.
Depends on the owner. I wouldn't work for Jerry Jones if another job was available. Not that I dislike him or anything, but if I'm the GM, then I need to be the GM. Meddling owners can capsize a franchise faster than any bad pick or trade can.Or ignorant - that was my point with the Browns.Haslem hired 3 Harvard grads 3 years ago.Probably to placate critics,when anyone one with any football acumen could immediately see the weasel in the woodpile.Jimmy Johnson went to Arkansas,Chuck Noll grew up in working Class Cleveland,Bill Walsh went to San Jose I believe.Lombardi went to Fordham.God only knows where Tex Schramm,Tom Landry,Al Davis,George Halas went - point being they weren't Ivy League Grads and it was never looked on as a slam dunk if you did you'd be successful.I've long stated that i could hand pick 4-5 guys from this board and put together a hell of a Collegiate Scouting/Talent Evaluation Dept.
I don't know how much difference there is between the top RB in the league and the 32nd best RB, especially if the latter is platooned and fresh. He is the 32nd best RB in the country, same with QB. They should still be elite. "We" always hear about the Bradys of the world, but maybe the Big Uglies make Brady Brady.I'm sorry but this line of thinking is just asinine to me. Could a good line make a QB or RB look better? Of course. But it doesn't make them elite and it doesn't separate the elite from the mediocre or the shitty. There have been plenty of shitty QB's and RB's that played behind great OL's.
Amen. I would do the same. Good RB's look great if they've got enormous holes to run through. Good QB's look great if they've got tons of time to read the defense before they throw. Good LB's look great in run support if you've got a bunch of DL who can shed blocks and disrupt plays in the backfield. Good DB's look great if you have a DL that can get pressure on the QB rushing 4 and not needing to blitz much.Truly elite, great players are great no matter who else is around them. IF you've got a chance to take a guy you think is that good- you take him. Always go best player available. That's why I don't think the Giants screwed up by taking Saquon over Darnold. Saquon is a potential HOF player. Darnold sucks to me.
Get the OL and the DL sorted, first, with the best players you can get. Big uglies make everyone else look prettier.
The Packers f***ked up royally by taking Tony Mandarich with the 2nd pick when the next 3 picks were....Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas and Deion Sanders. Barry never really had a great line and still dominated. Deion could cover anyone one on one in his sleep. Derrick Thomas was a HOF LB'er with not much else around him for many years in KC.When I think of the 1st rounders the Browns have pissed away :88:.......it's just nauseating.At least the Packers got to the NFL Championship Game 3 times since.The Browns..... :banghead:
OL's bust out all the time. The Packers f***ked up royally by taking Tony Mandarich with the 2nd pick when the next 3 picks were....Barry Sanders, Derrick Thomas and Deion Sanders. Barry never really had a great line and still dominated. Deion could cover anyone one on one in his sleep. Derrick Thomas was a HOF LB'er with not much else around him for many years in KC.The Chiefs made the wild card five times during Derrick Thomas' career and won their division twice. They had one conference championship appearance in all of those years.
Ed Oliver ran the same shuttle time as DeSean JacksonYeah but would you draft him? The 2nd half of the season, all I saw was injuries and him bitching at coaches....
When I think of the 1st rounders the Browns have pissed away :88:.......it's just nauseating.At least the Packers got to the NFL Championship Game 3 times since.The Browns..... :banghead:yeah but the Packers going to 3 Super Bowls had a lot to do with the QB and a defensive f/a signing. Both SB runs.
The Chiefs made the wild card five times during Derrick Thomas' career and won their division twice. They had one conference championship appearance in all of those years.No my example was this: take the best player available. If any of those teams had taken an OL or DL instead of the players they did take- they'd have missed out on truly all-time great players for...what? For my money Barry is the best RB to ever touch a football and Deion is the best CB to ever lace them up. Derrick Thomas might not be the best LB ever, but he's in that conversation for sure.
The Lions had 5 wild card game losses in Sanders' span, and one divisional title (lost in conference championship game).
Deion only played in Atlanta from 1989-1993 (the only time that his draft history matters IMHO), and in that time the Falcons had one wild card appearance (win) but lost in the next round.
Mandarich was a head case, and was cut after 3 seasons in Green Bay. And those were bad teams as well, so I can't say that they were otherwise a well-run team (that was the era of Lindy Infante, and Holmgren replaced him in 1992 when Mandarich was cut). He was certainly a draft bust, that's sure. But it's not like the draft strategy of the Chiefs, Lions, or Falcons proves that taking those great players is the key to success.
The strategy isn't necessarily "how to draft", but "how to build a successful team". I may be wrong that OL/DL are the first priority to create a successful team, but your examples of Sanders/Thomas/Deion certainly didn't prove me wrong.
So what if in the 1990 draft, the Lions were up to pick and the best player available in the 1st round was another stud RB? And then in 1991 the best player available was another stud RB?Yeah, I think you're taking what I said a bit too literally. Obviously need always plays into it. But if you already have a great RB and the best option at the pick is another stub RB, you trade down. Pick best player available while also keeping need in mind OR trade down and stockpile more picks. Staying put and reaching just because you want to draft on need never works out. Ever.
Would you have wanted the Lions to be taking stud RB after stud RB, stockpiling them, instead of drafting positions of need?
I think there's value in taking best player available. But it has to be balanced against need. If you want to build a team, you need to fill all 22 positions (plus special teams). Sometimes if you have a stud RB already, and the choices in the first round are another stud RB or the next-best player, a stud OG that will pave the way in run-blocking for your stud RB, you take the OG. (Or perhaps trade your pick to a team that needs to reach for a stud RB and make up the picks elsewhere to build out your roster).
For my money Barry is the best RB to ever touch a football and Deion is the best CB to ever lace them up. Derrick Thomas might not be the best LB ever, but he's in that conversation for sure.He's in the convo - Payton,Martin,Tomlinson,Dickerson,Brown,Campbell.Always liked DT.Sanders actually ended his career with 1 more winning season than losing I remember reading I doubt Payton reached that.Well check that upon further review Sanders had 5 winning/losing seasons each.
B - actually, yes, you do take the RB if he's the best player on the board if you already have Barry Sanders and you immediately trade him - at the absolute maximum leverege possible. You'd extract more from any team trying to trade up to your spot by securing his rights with the pick first, so then the team wanting him has to give you whatever you ask for. If a team did that in 3 straight drafts, it'd make a killing.Lions actually did that 3 straight drafts. They took WR's Charles Rogers, Roy Williams, and then Mike Williams in the 1st round in 3 straight drafts. They didn't exactly make a killing. Rogers and Mike Williams were huge busts, and while they were able to trade Roy Williams to Dallas for multiple draft picks, they absolutely bungled that hit by taking mediocre players with all those picks.
My favorite Barry Sanders stat is that he had the most carries for no gain or a loss in NFL history.Yeah, like it's totally his fault 9 times out of 10 there were guys in the backfield as soon as he took the snap? His OL's were garbage and his QB play was garbage for most of his career.
Lions actually did that 3 straight drafts. They took WR's Charles Rogers, Roy Williams, and then Mike Williams in the 1st round in 3 straight drafts. They didn't exactly make a killing. Rogers and Mike Williams were huge busts, and while they were able to trade Roy Williams to Dallas for multiple draft picks, they absolutely bungled that hit by taking mediocre players with all those picks.They didn't do what I prescribed.
Yeah, like it's totally his fault 9 times out of 10 there were guys in the backfield as soon as he took the snap?This seems like a made up stat... His OL's were garbage and his QB play was garbage for most of his career.
And he STILL ran for 15,269 yards in just 10 seasons, averaged 5.0 yards per carry for his career, averaged over 1,500 yards rushing a season, and ran for over 1,100+ yards a season for 10 straight seasons. The only year he didn't have at least 1,300+ yards rushing in a season was the year he was hurt and missed the final 6 games of the season and ran for 1,115 yards in 10 games.A major reason there hasn't been another Barry Sanders is because no coach would teach his RB to run like he did.
I will still to this day never forget a play he made against the Vikings. John Randle and two other Vikings DL had him dead to rights 5 yards behind the LOS before Barry ever touched the ball. They were in the backfield right after the snap ready to hit Barry for a loss immediately. Barry stopped his feet then jumped back as soon as he got the ball, did a crazy 360 spin move, jumped backwards again made all 3 of them look like fools then hit the juice and went straight up the middle for a 10 yard gain on what should have absolutely been a 5 yard loss. Any other RB- that's a 5 yard loss. Barry Sanders did crazy shit like that every single game. Every single game. His OL was a disgrace. He was literally unbelievable. You had to watch him to believe it. The things he could do, no one else could do. To this day.
A major reason there hasn't been another Barry Sanders is because no coach would teach his RB to run like he did.You can’t teach what he could do. Barry Sanders’ ability to stop and start and get to full speed from 0-60 and cut and juke and accelerate through cuts is virtually unparalleled. I’ve only seen two guys even a little bit close in LeSean McCoy and Saquon Barkley and even then those guys fall well short of Barry Sanders.
Payton had 6 winning seasons, 5 losing, and 2 at .500.I didn't look it up I just seemed like the Bears being very bad for many years from the mid '70s to the early '80's
You can’t teach what he could do. Barry Sanders’ ability to stop and start and get to full speed from 0-60 and cut and juke and accelerate through cuts is virtually unparalleled. I’ve only seen two guys even a little bit close in LeSean McCoy and Saquon Barkley and even then those guys fall well short of Barry Sanders.I think what he’s saying (and he can correct me if I’m wrong) is Sanders had a very feast or famine approach to carrying the ball. All those negative and zero yardage carries weren’t always poor line play. It was sometimes Sanders not willing to take a 3 yard gain. WVU had a back named Noel Devine that had a very similar approach. When he left school I believe he had 7 career runs that went for over 70 yards and no other back in school history had more than 2.
You can’t teach what he could do. Barry Sanders’ ability to stop and start and get to full speed from 0-60 and cut and juke and accelerate through cuts is virtually unparalleled. I’ve only seen two guys even a little bit close in LeSean McCoy and Saquon Barkley and even then those guys fall well short of Barry Sanders.I assume you've seen all-time RB shows or clips about Sanders and the Lions' coaches and players would even say they'd design plays where this guy is blocked and that guy goes there, and then that LB, Barry will get past him, etc., right?
I assume you've seen all-time RB shows or clips about Sanders and the Lions' coaches and players would even say they'd design plays where this guy is blocked and that guy goes there, and then that LB, Barry will get past him, etc., right?I don’t know if I totally buy that. To begin with, every running play in the history of football is designed with the hope/belief that the ball carrier can make one guy miss. That’s just sheer numbers. But I find it hard to believe the Lions would leave defenders unblocked that schematically should be blocked because they just simply believed Sanders would find a way to make them miss.
That's the problem, they were actually designing plays where they didn't try to block it how they should. The Lions didn't feel the need to improve their OL, which was stupid. They didn't design sound running plays, which was stupid. Barry Sanders ran like he did because he had to, and 29 other teams were smarter than that. 29 other teams tried improving their OL over time. 29 other teams had sound blocking schemes. 29 other teams taught their RB to hit the hole hard.
Sanders was a great, unique talent, because he had to be. He was a victim of circumstance as much as he was a great talent.
You can’t teach what he could do. Barry Sanders’ ability to stop and start and get to full speed from 0-60 and cut and juke and accelerate through cuts is virtually unparalleled. I’ve only seen two guys even a little bit close in LeSean McCoy and Saquon Barkley and even then those guys fall well short of Barry Sanders.Joe Washington should be on that list somewhere.
I figure every non-230 lb RB's highlight tape has Sanders-esque plays in it. If you remove all of the huge-hole runs that having nothing to do with what the RB did, they're all elusive, aren't they?some are MUCH more elusive than others
he got a few nice blocksJohnny the Jet? 1971, Norman, OK?
the late punt return looked a bit familiar to the famous one by the Jet
Johnny the Jet? 1971, Norman, OK?after ripping his knees up - no
Here's the longest-ever punt return for a 3-yard loss (https://youtu.be/U1Ms_37TWBI).
Washington did go on to have a decent NFL career. I don't think he quite had the top-end speed that a small-ish guy needs in that league.
Barry was great at stoping/starting but this was magnified on artificial turf.When the Browns had Eric Metcalf he made 5 guys miss him - on turf.Sanders was special no doubt but the guys mentioned are all equal in there own ways.Knock on Sanders is he was actually a shade under 5'8".Class act all the way.He could have easily made 1-2 thousand yards morethis is actually a myth. Sanders' numbers were virtually the same on grass.
some are MUCH more elusive than othersEmmitt was more slithery I feel like. He was great at hiding behind his big OL's and just bounced off defenders. It was often like he was covered in grease and the defenders would get to him but just couldn't bring him down. Emmitt was an all-time great RB who really doesn't get the credit he deserves imo. He just happened to play in the same era as Barry Sanders.
highlights of Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders are not comparable
some are MUCH more elusive than othersWhy would they be? If Emmitt ran like Barry in that offense, he'd be benched.
highlights of Emmitt Smith and Barry Sanders are not comparable
Emmitt was more slithery I feel like. He was great at hiding behind his big OL's and just bounced off defenders. It was often like he was covered in grease and the defenders would get to him but just couldn't bring him down. Emmitt was an all-time great RB who really doesn't get the credit he deserves imo.I was thinking about Emmitt and how difficult it must've been to give him ratings in a video game like Madden. Not a 99 in speed or breaking tackles or agility or whatever, but how do you rate things that Smith did have? Vision was probably his biggest asset, but also juking - not like Sanders did, but earlier in the run and more minor.
Why would they be? If Emmitt ran like Barry in that offense, he'd be benched.if Barry ran behind that line in that offense his numbers would have been outrageous
yup,Sooner fans can find at least three clips on that return, but who's counting? :'(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtzRZxnVLU4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtzRZxnVLU4)
if Barry ran behind that line in that offense his numbers would have been outrageous only if he ran differently
Emmett was a very good back that had a great line and offense and with that, you'd expect him to have all-time great numbers, which he did
Barry was one of the all-time greats - no comparision they were both all-time greats, which is why we can compare them, lol
Barry's career was 10 years. He was the 3rd pick in the '89 draft.Great post. Emmitt gets disrespected way too much. Yes his OL was great and he played with a HOF QB and WR, but he made all those guys better too. He did a lot of stuff on his own. Just watch the highlights.
Let's compare that to Emmitt's first 10 years. Smith was the 17th pick in the '90 draft, behind Blair Thomas of Penn State.
Barry (10 yrs)
151 games started
3062 carries
15,269 yards
99 TD
5.0 ypc
100 yards per game avg
20 carries per game avg
352 receptions
2912 yards receiving
8.3 ypc
10 rec TD
-
Emmitt (first 10 yrs)
153 games started
3243 carries
13963 yards
136 TD
4.3 ypc
90 yards per game avg
21 carries per game avg
442 receptions
2728 yards receiving
6.2 ypc
11 rec TD
-
-
Thankfully, 10 is a nice, round number.
Barry was a guy who'd get 306 carries for 1,5227 yards and 10 TD for you every year.
Emmitt would have 324 carries for 1,396 yards and 13-14 TD.
They'd both provide around 40 catches for 280 yards and a TD as well.
Let's not pretend these guys aren't comparable. I'm a whore for yards per carry, but the TD thing matters. Either DET didn't think Barry would score in short-yardage due to his running style OR they didn't want to expose him to goal line punishment...either way, it's a knock on him.
*And remember, this ignores the additional 4,392 yards and 28 TDs Emmitt had the rest of his career, on top of this comparison. Barry was still super-productive when he quit, but he did quit. This "he couldda, wouldda, shouldda" doesn't matter.
Great post. Emmitt gets disrespected way too much. Yes his OL was great and he played with a HOF QB and WR, but he made all those guys better too. He did a lot of stuff on his own. Just watch the highlights.Sanders’ and Smith’s year 10 ypc was almost identical. 4.3 for Sanders and 4.2 for Smith but I do think Smith’s workload was starting to catch up with him by then. By his tenth year Smith had 4,080 regular season and playoff touches compared 3,526 for Sanders. That’s more than a full season’s worth of extra wear and tear despite the same tenure in the league.
Barry did a lot of short yardage diving over the goal line stuff in college at Oklahoma State. A lot. He did score like 40 touchdowns that junior year, and they weren't all 60 yard TD runs. For some reason whenever the Lions got into the goal line situations, Wayne Fontes' brilliant genius coaching idea was to pull him out of the game. I'm 100% sure if Fontes would've just lined Barry up in the I-form near the goal-line with a FB in front of him, he'd have plenty more touchdowns.
What makes what Barry Sanders did for 10 straight years so impressive is he didn't have a whole lot of help. Their OL at best was pretty good some years- not great just pretty good- and other years it was flat out terrible. He never had a dominant OL like the Dallas/Denver lines of the 90s. The guy played 80% of his career with Wayne Fontes as his head coach. Yuck. The guy played with 10 different starting QB's, and most of them were flat out scrubs. Andre Ware, Rodney Peete, an 89 year old Dave Krieg with a bum shoulder, Charlie Batch, Scott Mitchell, Erik Kramer, Bob Gagliano, Eric Hipple, Don Majowski, and Frank Reich. Seriously? No Troy Aikman's there. Scott Mitchell was probably the best he had, and Mitchell was a turd that had a couple good years and was hated by most of his teammates and often played his smallest in the biggest moments. Herman Moore and Brett Perriman were a really good WR duo, so Barry definitely did have some help there.
Barry probably had a lot more juice left physically. He never took the big hits, most defenders were content just getting a hand on to him to bring him to the ground. Most were afraid to try and give him the big lick for fear of Barry making them look stupid and having them tackle nothing but air. His 9th year in the NFL after Bobby Ross came in and took over the Lions and gave Barry a FB, Barry only ran for 2,053 yards- and the next year- his 10th year- he ran for 1,491 yards- less than a first down shy of 1,500. In year 10. Which by the way is the most yards a RB has ever had following a 2,000 yard season. The others following a 2,000 yard season: Jamal Lewis (1,006 yards), Chris Johnson (1,364 yards) , Adrian Peterson (1,266 yards), Terrell Davis (211 yards), OJ Simpson (1,115 yards), and Erick Dickerson (1,234 yards).
Emmitt was showing some signs of erosion in year 9 and 10. Emmitt had 4 seasons in Dallas where he'd averaged 3.7 to 3.9 yards per carry. Barry was still at the top of his game year 9 and 10, and he never averaged less than 4.3 yards per carry a season- even with the 0 or negative gains- remove those and his YPC probably sky rockets to something ridiculous.
Sooner fans can find at least three clips on that return, but who's counting? :'(and as a Husker fan, I can find one instance of what a Sooner might call a clip, but that would be wrong. No clip
"Holy Moly, man, woman and child!" An all-time classic call.
5 yards per carry with the entire defense focused on him from the time he gets off the bus.
Barry (10 yrs)
5.0 ypc
-
Emmitt (first 10 yrs)
4.3 ypc-
Let's not pretend these guys aren't comparable. I'm a whore for yards per carry, but the TD thing matters. Either DET didn't think Barry would score in short-yardage due to his running style
I'm sure he also had the most playoff carries2nd in carries, 50 behind Franco Harris, but with more yards. Emmitt's ypc is actually higher in the playoffs than during the regular season for his career. So against the best teams in the league, he was at his best.
by a wide margin
he has the stats, because he has the attempts
I'm not saying he wasn't a great back, he's just not in my all-time top 10
you, sir, are ranking Emmett by how his stats look and not by how he performed on the field uhhh, these are the same thing, lolWho the hell is Gil Brandt?!? He has Sanders 7th and Bo Jackson 4th. You sure you want to marry his rankings? Yeesh.
not just my opinion, Gil Brandt shares my opinion
http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000815786/gil-brandt's-25-greatest-nfl-running-backs-of-all-time (http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000815786/gil-brandt's-25-greatest-nfl-running-backs-of-all-time)
I guess if Emmitt wasn't that good, then other players would've done what he did, right? I mean, in 98 years, dozens of franchises, tens of thousands of team seasons, whatever Emmitt Smith did would almost be common.I don’t think anyone is making the argument Smith was ordinary. I think the debate is was he better than Sanders? I would take Sanders although both were unquestionably great. I think anyone who takes Sanders does so thinking he played under circumstances that probably made his stats harder to achieve than Smith’s were (even though Smith’s stats were great). Doesn’t mean we are right in thinking that but I do think, in general, that’s the mindset.
But looking at Sanders first:
Barry ran for 99 TDs. That's a lot. Nine other players have more than that.
He ran for 15,000+ yards. Wow! Two players ran for more.
He also carried the ball 3,000+ times in his career. Incredible! Six other players have more.
Smith? Yawn.
164 rushing TDs. The most ever.
18,000+ yards. Number one.
4,400+ carries. No one had more.
If Emmitt was so ordinary, taking a back seat to others, why is he at the top of all the major lists? Just lucky, I guess.
Who the hell is Gil Brandt?!? He has Sanders 7th and Bo Jackson 4th. You sure you want to marry his rankings? Yeesh.Dude,
I haven't said once that Emmitt was better than Sanders. But we've got people here saying he wasn't one of the 10 best in history, which I have to simply label trolling with how absurd it is.Well, he showed you a former NFL executive who didn’t have Smith in his top 10. No one is right or wrong in doing that. Everybody values different things.
Who the hell is Gil Brandt?!? He has Sanders 7th and Bo Jackson 4th. You sure you want to marry his rankings? Yeesh.Gil Brandt is a former Vice President of player personnel in the National Football League for the Dallas Cowboys from 1960 to 1988. He is a graduate from the University of Wisconsin.
Emmitt is also the all-time leader in playoff rushing yards and TDs, with no one currently near him. I'm not exactly sure what more he was supposed to do.
I'm sure he also had the most playoff carriesFor me, any sort of "all-time leader in playoff rushing yards and TDs", despite being only 2nd on the all-time playoff carries list, tells me something:
by a wide margin
he has the stats, because he has the attempts
I'm not saying he wasn't a great back, he's just not in my all-time top 10
Gil Brandt is a former Vice President of player personnel in the National Football League for the Dallas Cowboys from 1960 to 1988. He is a graduate from the University of Wisconsin.Ah, I see. So he's about as objective about this as I am. Thanks, makes sense now.
Dude,The fact you can't seem to spell his name correctly seems petty.
These rankings are subjective opinions. Just using Gil as an example of someone that shares the single view that Emmett was not one of the top ten backs.
you have your opinion, so does everyone else.
Stating that my opinion is hilarious and ignores what actually took place on the field. Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.
The fact you can't seem to spell his name correctly seems petty.Really?That fact you would bring that up on this board is worse.
oh heck, anyone that has read my posts for more than a month knows derned well I'm a shitty spellerI'm honestly not an Emmitt Smith fanboy, and I view Sanders' '88 season at OKST as hollowed, but Emmitt gets the short end of the stick. Why don't people do the same to Jerry Rice? He had 2 HOF QBs throwing him the ball. He had the most yards/catches of all time. He was "too slow", etc.
and I sure as shootin don't care about it, don't care if I can't spell and don't care if someone knows about it
Heck, the AfroMAn knows all this, he just doesn't like my opinion of his Gator glory boy
if he was smack talking Roger Craig I might be checking his spelling
Any one of us with even an elementary understanding of modern passing games would wipe the floor with Noll's Steelers or Landry's Cowboys back then.Swan,Stallworth and Bennie Cunningham struck at anytime and Bradshaw got it to them.I know I've watched them do it to beat the Browns.Hell Cliff Branch a raiders receiver set the NCAA record for the 100 meters.He had Daryle Lamonica and later Ken Stabler getting him the long ball.But with each passing generation the players get a little bigger and faster.So not really accurate to compare them.Too bad society can't get any smarter
you, sir, are ranking Emmett by how his stats look and not by how he performed on the fieldGil, who has seen a thing or two, likes the old man who has been left out of this discussion.
not just my opinion, Gil Brandt shares my opinion
http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000815786/gil-brandt's-25-greatest-nfl-running-backs-of-all-time (http://www.nfl.com/photoessays/0ap3000000815786/gil-brandt's-25-greatest-nfl-running-backs-of-all-time)
I'm honestly not an Emmitt Smith fanboy, and I view Sanders' '88 season at OKST as hollowed, but Emmitt gets the short end of the stick. Why don't people do the same to Jerry Rice? He had 2 HOF QBs throwing him the ball. He had the most yards/catches of all time. He was "too slow", etc.Here’s my two cents on that. First of all, I think you have a point that Smith’s numbers are probably a little more unappreciated than they should be because of all the talent around him. I think you might be exaggerating it a little but I think the perception is there.
Swan,Stallworth and Bennie Cunningham struck at anytime and Bradshaw got it to them.I know I've watched them do it to beat the Browns.Hell Cliff Branch a raiders receiver set the NCAA record for the 100 meters.He had Daryle Lamonica and later Ken Stabler getting him the long ball.But with each passing generation the players get a little bigger and faster.So not really accurate to compare them.Too bad society can't get any smarterDid they even have route trees back then? It was run the ball 8 times then chuck it deep. Repeat.
Did they even have route trees back then? It was run the ball 8 times then chuck it deep. Repeat.Defenses adapt to what the offenses are doing. If offenses were running the schemes we see today, those DCs probably would have adjusted to them. They weren't idiots.
-
I honestly believe anyone who grew up playing football video games would be a world-beater OC in the 70s. Let's get to work on those time machines.
Here’s my two cents on that. .........Good post.Emmitt Smith had great balance also which is hard to graph.Sanders on the other hand did more damage in the open field not between the tackles.Jimmy Brown,pffft - end of conversation
Defenses adapt to what the offenses are doing. If offenses were running the schemes we see today, those DCs probably would have adjusted to them. They weren't idiots.Yeah, but if you're the only one with the space-aged passing game, it'd be a massive advantage.
If a video-game world, yeah, the old defenses would fail against today's offenses. But real football is played on a real field by real people who can adapt to circumstances.
Yeah, but if you're the only one with the space-aged passing game, it'd be a massive advantage.Yep.
Tressel Ball stopped Chip Kelly's high Octane HUNH offense in the Rose Bowl in 2010.Played smash mouth,power football playing keep away the one time I can honestly say the Vest fooled everyone.He pretty much ran the ball between the tackles all season.We thought tOSU would get killed.Turns out he was sand bagging got creative opened it up along with a strong running game.Pretty well stifled an explosive offense.Took them out of their rhythm and forced them to play from the heels Buckeyes had twice as many 1st downs,T.o.P.,and 150 more total ydsOf all OSU games to get weirdly mythologized, this remains the weirdest.
I look at it like this if you put barry back in the 50's he wouldn't have had all of the physical conditioning/nutritional programs available to make such an impact.A Bobby Mitchell or a Lenny more,Sure he'd be fast but Brown would be to and able to run over guys also (https://www.cfb51.com/Smileys/fantasticsmileys/040.gif).Have to compare guys in that time frame.Brown still retired averaging over 5 ypc and 100 yds per game.I remember NFL Films did a series on all-time greats at every position.They showed Brown dragging 4-5 Eagles into the endzone with him.If there wasn't any room Jimmy made some.Artie Donovan was 300 lbs,Gino marchetti what 285,forget what sam Huff and his ilk weighed in at.That's just the point Brown was freak in his time more so than Barry was in his.Brown also started his career playing 12 game seasons for 4 years,then 14 games.Brown was also an All-American Lacrosse player
As for the Barry vs. Jim Brown debate, that one is close. I look at it like this- Brown would not be the same player he was in the era Barry played or in todays game. You put Barry in any era and he's making everyone look like a fool. You put Barry in the late 50's and 60's- oh my god. He'd dominate that era even more than he did in the 1990s. You put Barry in todays game and he's still dominating. He's timeless. You put Jim Brown in the 90s or todays game- he's just not the same guy. Brown was playing in an era when he was 6'2, 225 and he was pretty much bigger and stronger than virtually all of the defensive linemen and linebackers that were tasked with trying to tackle him. He'd be a big back in the 90s or todays game- but certainly pale in comparison to the size of the DL's and LB's tackling him. This is a great point that the HOF RB Curtis Martin made about why he thinks Barry is the GOAT over Brown, and it's a point that I agree with him on.
Of all OSU games to get weirdly mythologized, this remains the weirdest.I think humanity could live on for tens of millions of years, and people will still think providing one contrary example rebukes a larger point. :57:
General consensus by some fellows at NFL.com:the only picks out of any of those I like is Bosa to San Fran, Williams to Oakland, and Sweat to Detroit. All pretty much sure things and good value picks.
1 - ARI - Murray, QB, Oklahoma
2 - SF - Bosa, DE, Ohio St
3 - NYJ - Allen, DE/LB, Kentucky
4 - OAK - Williams, DT, Alabama
5 - TB - White, LB, LSU
6 - NYG - Gary, DE, Michigan
7 - JAX - Taylor, T, Florida
8 - DET - Sweat, DE/LB, Miss St
. . . Kyler Murray is going to be a giant flop if Arizona does take him #1 imo. I am not buying him as an NFL QB for even a second. They'd be way better off trading down and trying to build out the roster. Tampa Bay needs a hell of a lot more than a LB. No disrespect to White. He's a very good player, but Top 5 pick? Don't see it. That's LT/Derrick Thomas territory. Same goes for Allen out of Kentucky, who I think is being ridiculously over-hyped. Jacksonville needs more than a OT, and Nick Foles is not an answer, he's a stop gap. If they pass on Dwayne Haskins they are flat out stupid. . . .A year ago that was a widespread opinion about Baker Mayfield, and he's turned out OK.
The Giants have a long, recent history of taking freak defensive linemen, even with severe needs elsewhere.
NY Giants need a QB in the worst way. IF they pass on Haskins for Rashan Gary, dear god are they stupid. I love Gary. Rashan Gary is a great person with 0 baggage and an absolute FREAK of nature who at 6'4.5", 280 could realistically play anywhere along the line of scrimmage, but he's had a couple injury issues with his shoulder the last two years in a row and he's flat out raw. He never developed his pass rush or his hands, he just relied on his incredible physical talent. I wouldn't take him in the top 10 because he's not going to be an instant impact player. He's going to take a year or two to really hit his stride, but when he does, look out. Still- that doesn't justify taking him that high or passing up a franchise QB in Haskins. Eli Manning will be like 40 years old after next season and he flat out sucks and has flat out sucked for YEARS. If they don't move all in Haskins they are just beyond stupid.
Kyler Murray is going to be a giant flop if Arizona does take him #1 imo. I am not buying him as an NFL QB for even a second. They'd be way better off trading down and trying to build out the roster.Not sure if he flops,I can see him being used like The Squeelers use to use Kordell Stewart - he has ability.I just don't see him being a plug in and play at that position for a decade.I'd hang on to Rosen,too many teams hit the panic button after one season if a prospect doesn't match Marino's '83 season.This could be a smoke screen also to snag additional draft picks.But with societys inability to keep it's mouth shut via social media - I doubt it
Raiders doing Raiders thingsThey should just call the Gruden hotline. I'm sure Tony Romo is trustworthy.
https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1119274857080991745
| 1. | Cardinals | DT Quinnen Williams, Alabama |
| 2. | 49ERS | DE NICK BOSA, OHIO STATE |
| 3. | Jets | OLB Josh Allen, Kentucky |
| 4. | Raiders | DE Montez Sweat, Mississippi State |
| 5. | Buccaneers | ILB Devin White, LSU |
| 6. | Giants | QB Kyler Murray, Oklahoma |
| 7. | JAGUARS | TE T.J, HOCKENSON, IOWA |
| 8. | Colts | DT Ed Oliver, Houston |
| 9. | Bills | OLB Brian Burns, Florida State |
| 10. | BRONCOS | ILB DEVIN BUSH, MICHIGAN |
| 11. | Bengals | T Jawaan Taylor, Florida |
| 12. | PACKERS | TE NOAH FANT, IOWA |
| 13. | DOLPHINS | DE RASHAN GARY, MICHIGAN |
| 14. | Falcons | DE Clelin Ferrell, Clemson |
| 15. | Panthers | T Jonah Williams, Alabama |
| 16. | REDSKINS | QB DWAYNE HASKINS, OHIO STATE |
| 17. | Giants | T Andre Dillard, Washington State |
| 18. | Vikings | G Chris Lindstrom, Boston College |
| 19. | Titans | DT Christian Wilkins, Clemson |
| 20. | Steelers | WR D.K. Metcalf, Ole Miss |
| 21. | Seahawks | CB Byron Murphy, Washington |
| 22. | Broncos | QB Drew Lock, Missouri |
| 23. | Texans | G Cody Ford, Oklahoma |
| 24. | Raiders | CB Greedy Williams, LSU |
| 25. | Eagles | RB Josh Jacobs, Alabama |
| 26. | Lions | CB Deandre Baker, Georgia |
| 27. | Patriots | DT Dexter Lawrence, Clemson |
| 28. | Chargers | DT Jeffery Simmons, Mississippi State |
| 29. | Chiefs | FS Nasir Adderly, Delaware |
| 30. | Packers | WR Marquise Brown, Oklahoma |
| 31. | Rams | C Garrett Bradbury, NC State |
| 32. | Raiders | G Dalton Risner, Kansas State |
| 33. | Cardinals | WR N'Keal Harry, Arizona State |
| 34. | Lions | TE Irv Smith Jr., Alabama |
| 35. | RAIDERS | OLB CHASE WINOVICH, MICHIGAN |
| 36. | 49ers | WR A.J. Brown, Ole Miss |
| 37. | Vikings | C Erik McCoy, Texas A&M |
| 38. | Jaguars | QB Daniel Jones, Duke |
| 39. | Buccaneers | CB Rock Ya-Sin, Temple |
| 40. | Bills | WR Deebo Samuel, South Carolina |
| 41. | Ravens | ILB Mack Wilson, Alabama |
| 42. | Packers | FS Chauncey Gardner-Johnson, Florida |
| 43. | Cowboys | DT Jerry Tillery, Notre Dame |
| 44. | BENGALS | DT DRE'MONT JONES, OHIO STATE |
| 45. | FALCONS | CB JUSTIN LAYNE, MICHIGAN STATE |
| 46. | Eagles | FS Juan Thornhill, Virginia |
| 47. | Panthers | WR J.J. Arcega-Whiteside, Stanford |
| 48. | Dolphins | SS Johnathan Abram, Mississippi State |
| 49. | BROWNS | CB AMANI ORUWARIYE, PENN STATE |
| 50. | GIANTS | WR PARRIS CAMPBELL, OHIO STATE |
| 51. | Buccaneers | FS Deionte Thompson, Alabama |
| 52. | Steelers | CB Trayvon Mullen, Clemson |
| 53. | Redskins | SS Taylor Rapp, Washington |
| 54. | Texans | T Greg Little, Ole Miss |
| 55. | Texans | CB Julian Love, Notre Dame |
| 56. | Patriots | WR Hakeem Butler, Iowa State |
| 57. | Eagles | WR Kelvin Harmon, NC State |
| 58. | Lions | DE Zach Allen, Boston College |
| 59. | COLTS | FS DARNELL SAVAGE JR., MARYLAND |
| 60. | Chargers | T Kaleb McGary, Washington |
| 61. | CHIEFS | RB MILES SANDERS, PENN STATE |
| 62. | SAINTS | WR TERRY MCLAURIN, OHIO STATE |
| 63. | Chiefs | DE Jaylon Ferguson, Louisiana Tech |
| 64. | Patriots | DE L.J. Collier, TCU |
| 65. | CARDINALS | G MICHAEL DEITER, WISCONSIN |
| 66. | Steelers | OLB Jachai Polite, Florida |
| 67. | 49ers | CB Sean Bunting, Central Michigan |
| 68. | Jets | WR Riley Ridley, Georgia |
| 69. | Jaguars | WR Andy Isabella, Massachusetts |
| 70. | Titans | TE Jace Sternberger, Texas A&M |
| 71. | Ravens | C Elgton Jenkins, Mississippi State |
| 72. | Raiders | RB Damien Harris, Alabama |
| 73. | Patriots | OLB Vosean Joseph, Florida |
| 74. | Bills | DE Oshane Ximines, Old Dominion |
| 75. | Packers | T Yodny Cajuste, West Virginia |
| 76. | Redskins | WR Emanuel Hall, Missouri |
| 77. | PANTHERS | G CONNOR MCGOVERN, PENN STATE |
| 78. | Dolphins | T Bobby Evans, Oklahoma |
| 79. | Falcons | DT Khalen Saunders, Western Illinois |
| 80. | Browns | G Nate Davis, Charlotte |
| 81. | GIANTS | SS AMANI HOOKER, IOWA |
| 82. | Texans | RB Darrell Henderson, Memphis |
| 83. | Steelers | TE Dawson Knox, Ole Miss |
| 84. | Seahawks | DE Ben Banogu, TCU |
| 85. | Ravens | RB David Montgomery, Iowa State |
| 86. | Titans | DE Charles Omenihu, Texas |
| 87. | Bears | DT Gerald Willis III, Miami |
| 88. | Lions | OLB D'Andre Walker, Georgia |
| 89. | Lions | RB Devin Singletary, Florida Atlantic |
| 90. | LIONS | T DAVID EDWARDS, WISCONSIN |
| 91. | Chargers | CB Lonnie Johnson, Kentucky |
| 92. | Chiefs | CB Joejuan Williams, Vanderbilt |
| 93. | Jets | DT Isaiah Buggs, Alabama |
| 94. | Rams | DT Renell Wren, Arizona State |
| 95. | Giants | RB Justice Hill, Oklahoma State |
| 96. | Redskins | OLB Germaine Pratt, NC State |
| 97. | Bengals | TE Kaden Smith, Stanford |
| 98. | Jaguars | T Tytus Howard, Alabama State |
| 99. | PANTHERS | DE ANTHONY NELSON, IOWA |
| 100. | Rams | ILB David Long Jr., West Virginia |
| 101. | Patriots | TE Kahale Warring, San Diego State |
| 102. | Ravens | WR Mecole Hardman, Georgia |
ELA has 8 of ten. QB and TEFor better or worse, they are all in on Cousins. Might as well protect him, and see if it works better.
and I don't know, but I doubt it.
I love the idea that the Vikings could take OL with their first 2 picks, but they've needed to fix the OL for 5 or 6 years at least have I don't think they've taken an O-lineman in the first or second round in 6 or 7 seasons
they usually don't draft who they should draft
and Zimmer just loves defensive players
| 103. | Cardinals | OLB Bobby Okereke, Stanford |
| 104. | 49ers | DT Daylon Mack, Texas A&M |
| 105. | JETS | CB DAVID LONG, MICHIGAN |
| 106. | Bengals | QB Will Grier, West Virginia |
| 107. | TITANS | G MICHAEL JORDAN, OHIO STATE |
| 108. | Giants | G Ben Powers, Oklahoma |
| 109. | Jaguars | SS Mike Edwards, Kentucky |
| 110. | Bengals | DE Joe Jackson, Miami |
| 111. | Bills | TE Josh Oliver, San Jose State |
| 112. | Lions | G Chuma Udoga, USC |
| 113. | Ravens | OLB Christian Miller, Alabama |
| 114. | Packers | RB Trayveon Williams, Texas A&M |
| 115. | Panthers | C Lamont Gaillard, Georgia |
| 116. | DOLPHINS | G BEAU BENZSCHAWEL, WISCONSIN |
| 117. | Falcons | T Max Scharping, Northern Illinois |
| 118. | Packers | OLB Terrill Hanks, New Mexico |
| 119. | Browns | RB Rodney Anderson, Oklahoma |
| 120. | Vikings | RB Benny Snell, Kentucky |
| 121. | Titans | WR David Sills, West Virginia |
| 122. | Steelers | ILB Jahlani Tavai, Hawaii |
| 123. | Ravens | QB Ryan Finley, NC State |
| 124. | Seahawks | SS Marquise Blair, Utah |
| 125. | Ravens | TE Foster Moreau, LSU |
| 126. | Bears | OLB Chase Hansen, Utah |
| 127. | Redskins | ILB Te'Von Coney, Notre Dame |
| 128. | Cowboys | CB Isaiah Johnson, Houston |
| 129. | Colts | CB Jamel Dean, Auburn |
| 130. | Chargers | G Dru Samia, Oklahoma |
| 131. | Bills | CB Corey Ballentine, Washburn |
| 132. | Colts | WR Miles Boykin, Notre Dame |
| 133. | RAMS | OLB BLAKE CASHMAN, MINNESOTA |
| 134. | Patriots | CB Jimmy Moreland, James Madison |
| 135. | Vikings | WR Penny Hart, Georgia State |
| 136. | Cowboys | FS Sheldrick Redwine, Miami |
| 137. | FALCONS | RB DEVINE OZIGBO, NEBRASKA |
| 138. | Chargers | QB Tyree Jackson, Buffalo |
| 139. | Cardinals | CB Kris Boyd, Texas |
| 140. | Bengals | OLB Drue Tranquill, Notre Dame |
| 141. | Steelers | SS Jaquan Johnson, Miami |
| 142. | Giants | CB Saivion Smith, Alabama |
| 143. | Dolphins | QB Jarrett Stidham, Auburn |
| 144. | Browns | DT Terry Beckner Jr., Missouri |
| 145. | Colts | DE Maxx Crosby, Eastern Michigan |
| 146. | Lions | WR Anthony Johnson, Buffalo |
| 147. | Bills | DT Demarcus Christmas, Florida State |
| 148. | Broncos | OLB Sione Takitaki, BYU |
| 149. | Redskins | TE Drew Sample, Washington |
| 150. | Packers | ILB Joe Giles-Harris, Duke |
| 151. | Giants | DT Greg Gaines, Washington |
| 152. | Steelers | RB Ryquell Armstead, Temple |
| 153. | Bengals | WR Gary Jennings Jr., West Virginia |
| 154. | Redskins | CB Michael Jackson, Miami |
| 155. | Browns | T Dennis Daley, South Carolina |
| 156. | Broncos | TE Caleb Wilson, UCLA |
| 157. | Titans | OLB Justin Hollins, Oregon |
| 158. | Browns | SS Will Harris, Boston College |
| 159. | Seahawks | WR Antoine Wesley, Texas Tech |
| 160. | Ravens | CB Mark Fields, Clemson |
| 161. | Texans | C Ross Pierschbacher, Alabama |
| 162. | BEARS | T ISAIAH PRINCE, OHIO STATE |
| 163. | Eagles | ILB Cameron Smith, USC |
| 164. | Titans | CB Jordan Brown, South Dakota State |
| 165. | Cowboys | DE Austin Bryant, Clemson |
| 166. | Eagles | T Mitch Hyatt, Clemson |
| 167. | Chiefs | WR Darius Slayon, Auburn |
| 168. | Saints | DE Jalen Jelks, Oregon |
| 169. | Rams | DE John Cominsky, Charleston |
| 170. | Bills | FS Marvin Tell III, USC |
| 171. | Giants | TE Dax Raymond, Utah State |
| 172. | Falcons | WR Dillon Mitchell, Oregon |
| 173. | Redskins | RB Bryce Love, Stanford |
| 174. | CARDINALS | QB CLAYTON THORSON, NORTHWESTERN |
| 175. | Falcons | ILB Joseph Tauaefa, UTSA |
| 176. | 49ers | FS Malik Gant, Marshall |
| 177. | Saints | TE Isaac Nauta, Georgia |
| 178. | Jaguars | DT Trysten Hill, Central Florida |
| 179. | Cardinals | T Olisaemeka Udoh, Elon |
| 180. | Giants | ILB Tre Lamar, Clemson |
| 181. | Bills | OLB Sutton Smith, Northern Illinois |
| 182. | Broncos | DT Kingston Keke, Texas A&M |
| 183. | BENGALS | ILB T.J. EDWARDS, WISCONSIN |
| 184. | Lions | ILB Tre Lamar, Clemson |
| 185. | BENGALS | CB KENDALL SHEFFIELD, OHIO STATE |
| 186. | Falcons | TE Alize Mack, Notre Dame |
| 187. | Rams | T Martez Ivey, Florida |
| 188. | TITANS | RB MIKE WEBER, OHIO STATE |
| 189. | Browns | ILB Gary Johnson, Texas |
| 190. | Vikings | DT Chris Slayton, Syracuse |
| 191. | RAVENS | DE SHAREEF MILLER, PENN STATE |
| 192. | Steelers | DE Jonathan Ledbetter, Georgia |
| 193. | Ravens | FS Lukas Denis, Boston College |
| 194. | Packers | QB Brett Rypien, Boise State |
| 195. | Titans | QB Gardner Minshew II, Washington State |
| 196. | Jets | TE Tommy Sweeney, Boston College |
| 197. | Eagles | CB Derrick Baity, Kentucky |
| 198. | BENGALS | RB KARAN HIGDON, MICHIGAN |
| 199. | Titans | ILB Cody Barton, Utah |
| 200. | Eagles | G Alex Bars, Notre Dame |
| 201. | Chiefs | ILB Ben Burr-Kirven, Washington |
| 202. | Saints | OLB Emeke Egbule, Houston |
| 203. | Panthers | CB Iman Marshall, USC |
| 204. | LIONS | QB TRACE MCSORLEY, PENN STATE |
| 205. | Buccaneers | DE Carl Granderson, Wyoming |
| 206. | Redskins | G Nate Herbig, Stanford |
| 207. | Falcons | G Tyler Jones, NC State |
| 208. | Patriots | QB Easton Stick, North Dakota State |
| 209. | Vikings | T William Sweet, North Carolina |
| 210. | Bengals | SS Zedrick Woods, Ole Miss |
| 211. | Bengals | FS Mike Bell, Fresno State |
| 212. | 49ers | RB Jordan Scarlett, Florida |
| 213. | BENGALS | G RYAN BATES, PENN STATE |
| 214. | Chiefs | DT Daniel Wise, Kansas |
| 215. | Patriots | RB James Williams, Washington State |
| 216. | Chiefs | SS Evan Worthington, Colorado |
| 217. | Jets | RB Myles Gaskins, Washington |
| 218. | RAIDERS | TE ZACH GENTRY, MICHIGAN |
| 219. | Steelers | DT Dontavius Russell, Auburn |
| 220. | TEXANS | DE BYRON COWART, MARYLAND |
| 221. | Bills | RB Dexter Williams, Notre Dame |
| 222. | Bears | CB Hamp Cheevers, Boston College |
| 223. | Bengals | C Bunchy Stallings, Kentucky |
| 224. | LIONS | SS KHARI WILLIS, MICHIGAN STATE |
| 225. | Lions | DT Albert Huggins, Clemson |
| 226. | Packers | DE Wyatt Ray, Boston College |
| 227. | Bengals | WR Jakobi Meyers, NC State |
| 228. | Bills | T Trey Pipkins, Sioux Falls |
| 229. | Lions | FS Ugo Amadi, Oregon |
| 230. | Falcons | OLB Tyrel Dodson, Texas A&M |
| 231. | Saints | OLB Dakota Allen, Texas Tech |
| 232. | GIANTS | ILB RYAN CONNELLY, WISCONSIN |
| 233. | Giants | DE Jordan Brailford, Oklahoma State |
| 234. | Giants | K Cole Tracy, LSU |
| 235. | RAIDERS | SS D'COTA DIXON, WISCONSIN |
| 236. | Jaguars | OLB Jake Bailey, Stanford |
| 237. | BRONCOS | WR STANLEY MORGAN JR., NEBRASKA |
| 238. | Bears | RB Elijah Holyfield, Georgia |
| 239. | BUCCANEERS | OLB ANDREW VAN GINKEL, WISCONSIN |
| 240. | Vikings | OLB Cole Holcomb, North Carolina |
| 241. | Cowboys | WR Hunter Renfrow, Clemson |
| 242. | Chargers | S Jah'Shawn Johnson, Texas Tech |
| 243. | Buccaneers | RB Tony Pollard, Memphis |
| 244. | Saints | CB Jamal Peters, Mississippi State |
| 245. | Giants | WR Jalen Hurd, Baylor |
| 246. | Patriots | P Mitch Wishnowsky, Utah |
| 247. | Vikings | TE Trevon Wesco, West Virginia |
| 248. | Cardinals | RB Jalin Moore, Appalachian State |
| 249. | CARDINALS | FB ALEC INGOLD, WISCONSIN |
| 250. | Vikings | QB Jordan Ta'amu, Ole Miss |
| 251. | Rams | WR Preston Williams, Colorado State |
| 252. | Patriots | FS Darius West, Kentucky |
| 253. | Redskins | DT Armon Watts, Arkansas |
| 254. | Cardinals | DE Jamal Davis II, Akron |
The Redskins' front office would literally orgasm on the war room cam if Haskins was there at 16. Messy stuff, not fit for children.They need to send a thank you card to the Giants
Wouldn't want to be the custodian at Washington camp tonight....
good for them, they got who they wanted.
Here's hoping that McTerps is also a Redskins fan.I was when I was a kid. I remember watching Mark Rypien and Art Monk Darrell Green many others, Doug Williams play for Super Bowls.
I'm curious...did Darnell Savage get mentioned in the Big Ten "team" threads?Yup, he was there to vote for, he just never got voted. I voted for him twice, and both times I was the sole vote. If you had voted for him, he would have made the team. But as is American tradition, we are better about complaining about voting results than we are at voting.
Yup, he was there to vote for, he just never got voted. I voted for him twice, and both times I was the sole vote. If you had voted for him, he would have made the team. But as is American tradition, we are better about complaining about voting results than we are at voting.Well, that might change if an individuals vote actually counted.
Well, that might change if an individuals vote actually counted.Yes, a second team All-Big Ten player was treated as such for voting.
As for the poll in question, viable candidates with all factors in mind may have kept more interest in it, other than voting for helmets.
Way to reach on a 4th round talent in the 2nd round LionsThey wasted their 1st rd pick too. Lions sucking ass in the draft. As usual.
They need to send a thank you card to the GiantsI am beginning to think that the Giants GM is an actual retard. I don’t say that lightly. Mind. Boggling.
Way to reach on a 4th round talent in the 2nd round LionsThat assessment just might be generous.Does someone have Millen on speed dial?
most TEs ever taken in the draft?The Jets took a WVU TE. I honestly didn't even know WVU had a TE.
WR was the right pick, but Fulgham wasn't the right guy. Then Ty Johnson I had further down the board, but I REALLY like how he fits with Kerryon Johnson, so I actually am good with that pick.Harris could be a good player so I won't knock that but damn Butler was still on the board.
WR was the right pick, but Fulgham wasn't the right guy. Then Ty Johnson I had further down the board, but I REALLY like how he fits with Kerryon Johnson, so I actually am good with that pick.Glad he got in.
Ya I think so too seems like he wised up and kept his mouth shut and handled things maturely.The Fins have stocked piled like 10 picks for next year so not giving up much.Also AZ's O-Line resembled a full clothes line in a west Texas windstorm last season so maybe Murray will fit in being the better runner.IMO I still think Rosen has much more upside in staying under center for the duration than Murray
Getting Rosen was a good pickup for the Dolphins IMO. Plus his signing bonus is paid out, cap hit of only 3M/year, which is low for backups.
Purdue ends 21-year steak of having at least one player drafted. Final indictment of Darrell Hazell and his recruiting IMHO. Can we fire him again?the Husker's 56 year streak is over
Shocked Ozigbo didn't get pickedGreat catch there I noticed awhile back that he averaged like 7 yds ypc his last season.It's not like he was the 7th rated QB in the ACC or anything.So ya this is a :017:.Damn wished Cleveland scooped him up
"Purdue ends 21-year steak of having at least one player drafted. Final indictment of Darrell Hazell and his recruiting IMHO. Can we fire him again?"I'll admit that for Purdue, the streak itself was more anomaly than it would be for some other schools. There were more than a few years in those 21 where we were saved by a single player in the late rounds getting drafted.
To a degree, I understand this matters, but also does this matter?
I mean, if it weren't for Ryan Russell, the streak would've broken a while ago. For Nebraska, it took Tanner Lee to extend it to this year. I get that it's an indicator of the talent, but if you took what each program did the past few years, plus threw in some coaching changes and the advance rates of attrition these days, I feel like continuing these streaks is pretty much a crapshoot.
I also know more of these have come to an end of late, including Tennessee and Texas. I wonder how much of that stems from the advances in digital scouting. Like finding an interesting wide receiver or developmental defensive end from Augsburg College must be worlds easier than even a few years ago. And that guy replaces, the "well, he's an OK guy from the Big 10" types.
Hmm. The drag and drop isn't working for me. But that image combines impressively with the fact that 17/32 first rounders were former 4- and 5-stars. To enrich that group that much requires either (1) outrageous coincidence or (2) significant predictive power for recruiting rankings, depending on your world view.Agreed. And it's always easy to find outliers... Sure, there might be some players who some GM was really high on that gets drafted 2 rounds earlier than predicted via mock. And there might be players that in player interviews come off as a head case and fall a few rounds lower than predicted via mock.
(https://twitter.com/Ryan_McCrystal)I loved the pick. I can’t quite figure out why he slipped so much.
Ryan McCrystal
If the Browns kept the 17th overall pick and selected Greedy Williams it would be an A grade.
Ryan McCRYSTAL tweeted this he works for bleacher report but use to an insider with ESPN - hope he is right
He was 7th in ACC QB ratings.Not sure anyone had him pegged in the 2nd.It's not mob mentality could have traded and got Rosen who most agree has a higher ceiling.And it's that GM blowing a lot of smoke and none of it really believableOkay, but at this point, all the GM is guilty of is not going along with the consensus. How dare he!
Okay, but at this point, all the GM is guilty of is not going along with the consensus. How dare he!This isn't about being going along with the consensus - they're happy as hell he probably blew the pick.FWIW many believe the cardinals screwed the pooch also by picking a smallish QB no 1 over all and sending rosen packing.Time will tell it's just that's a draft position you can't swing and miss on.I know the Browns do it with distressing frequency.I was livid when they used 1st rd picks on both Weeden and Manziel.One turned 29 his rookie year and the other a pixie who even had he not misbehaved still would have gotten curb stomped
He won't be vindicated nor his stupidity confirmed for years, so this knee-jerk criticism is silly.
THIS,there was no indication by either Washington or Denver they were leaning that way nor did they elude to it.Gettleman is pulling conjecture out of his backside.Obviously he is feeling unsure because the fans are jaded with the pick and explanation
Now the second part is when he was taken. That, and the ensuing explanation, suggest he was not going along with the consensus. If Jones was not valued by consensus, he would've been available later on. So that could be value lost.
Even in these seemingly cut-and-dry cases, there's such much noise in the system that I don't think we can be certain about anything.
Love the Lions getting Oruwariye! So we took a 5th round talent in the 2nd, and got a 2nd round talent in the 5th*https://www.prideofdetroit.com/2019/5/1/18525947/detroit-lions-nfl-draft-pff-biggest-steal-amani-oruwariye (https://www.prideofdetroit.com/2019/5/1/18525947/detroit-lions-nfl-draft-pff-biggest-steal-amani-oruwariye)*