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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: MrNubbz on March 03, 2019, 10:08:45 AM

Title: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 03, 2019, 10:08:45 AM
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[font=Segoe UI, Segoe UI Web (West European), Segoe UI, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Roboto, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif][font=Segoe UI, Segoe UI Web (West European), Segoe UI, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Roboto, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif]A SHOT OF WHISKEY' - In the old west a .45 cartridge for a six-gun cost 12 cents, so did a glass of whiskey. If a cowhand was low on cash he would often give the bartender a cartridge in exchange for a drink. This became known as a "shot" of whiskey.
BUYING THE FARM - This is synonymous with dying. During WW1 soldiers were given life insurance policies worth $5,000. This was about the price of an average farm so if you died you "bought the farm" for your survivors.
IRON CLAD CONTRACT - This came about from the ironclad ships of the Civil War. It meant something so strong it could not be broken.
RIFF RAFF - The Mississippi River was the main way of travelling from north to south. Riverboats carried passengers and freight but they were expensive so most people used rafts. Everything had the right of way over rafts which were considered cheap. The steering oar on the rafts was called a "riff" and this transposed into riff-raff, meaning low class.
COBWEB - The Old English word for “spider" was "cob".
SHIP STATE ROOMS - Travelling by steamboat was considered the height of comfort. Passenger cabins on the boats were not numbered. Instead they were named after states. To this day cabins on ships are called staterooms.
SLEEP TIGHT- Early beds were made with a wooden frame. Ropes were tied across the frame in a crisscross pattern. A straw mattress was then put on top of the ropes. Over time the ropes stretched, causing the bed to sag. The owner would then tighten the ropes to get a better night’s sleep.
SHOWBOAT - These were floating theatres built on a barge that was pushed by a steamboat. These played small towns along the Mississippi River . Unlike the boat shown in the movie "Showboat" these did not have an engine. They were gaudy and attention grabbing which is why we say someone who is being the life of the party is “showboating".
OVER A BARREL - In the days before CPR a drowning victim would be placed face down over a barrel and the barrel would be rolled back and forth in an effort to empty the lungs of water. It was rarely effective. If you are over a barrel you are in deep trouble.
BARGE IN - Heavy freight was moved along the Mississippi in large barges pushed by steamboats. These were hard to control and would sometimes swing into piers or other boats People would say they "barged in".
HOGWASH - Steamboats carried both people and animals. Since pigs smelled so bad they would be washed before being put on board. The mud and other filth that was washed off was considered useless “hog wash".
CURFEW - The word "curfew" comes from the French phrase "couvre-feu", which means "cover the fire". It was used to describe the time of blowing out all lamps and candles. It was later adopted into Middle English as “curfeu" which later became the modern "curfew". In the early American colonies homes had no real fireplaces so a fire was built in the centre of the room. In order to make sure a fire did not get out of control during the night it was required that, by an agreed upon time, all fires would be covered with a clay pot called-a “curfew".
BARRELS OF OIL - When the first oil wells were drilled they had made no provision for storing the liquid so they used water barrels. That is why, to this day, we speak of barrels of oil rather than gallons.
HOT OFF THE PRESS - As the paper goes through the rotary printing press friction causes it to heat up. Therefore, if you grab the paper right off the press it’s hot. The expression means to get immediate information.
There, don't you feel smarter now?
Betcha Didn’t Know ...
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Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: FearlessF on March 03, 2019, 10:23:18 AM
I don't feel smarter
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 03, 2019, 10:30:49 AM
It's those words that left you in such good standing with your professors
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 03, 2019, 10:43:39 AM
Hot off the presses was pretty self explanatory, but I hadn't heard the origin of the others. 
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 03, 2019, 11:24:11 AM
POSH stands for Port Outbound Starboard Home, the preferred cabins for boat trips to India from England because of the breeze and seeing land.

SNAFU and FUBAR you know.

"LASER" you know, "MASER" maybe not.

Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MarqHusker on March 03, 2019, 01:22:59 PM
I love  'go pound sand'    to encourage another to engage in a pointless activity.  It's roots are English IIRC.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Hawkinole on March 03, 2019, 01:49:26 PM
Hold your horses! A law school professor once told us, that early artillerymen did not just say, "Ready, aim, fire!" But before they fired would also holler, "Hold your horses!" I don't know of any evidence to support this; it seems logical.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 03, 2019, 02:01:57 PM
Beyond the Pale
The phrase "beyond the pale" dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=boundary) made of such stakes (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=stakes) or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization (https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=civilization) itself.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 04, 2019, 10:20:14 AM
I love  'go pound sand'    to encourage another to engage in a pointless activity.  It's roots are English IIRC.
I always heard go pound salt but yours could be the original take
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: FearlessF on March 04, 2019, 11:34:51 AM
you hang out with truck drivers
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 04, 2019, 12:50:32 PM
https://www.inklyo.com/english-idioms-origins/

 Hands down(https://www.inklyo.com/wp-content/uploads/Hands-Down-1.jpg)
Meaning: without a lot of effort; by far
Origin: Winning “hands down” once referred to 19th-century horseracing (http://mentalfloss.com/article/53004/42-idiom-origins-explained), when a jockey could remove his hands from the reins and still win the race because he was so far ahead.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 04, 2019, 12:52:05 PM
16. Turn a blind eye
Meaning: to consciously ignore unwanted information
Origin: The phrase “to turn a blind eye” is said to originate with Admiral Horatio Nelson, who allegedly looked through his telescope using his blind eye to avoid signals from his superior telling him to withdraw from battle (https://www.oxford-royale.co.uk/articles/bizarre-english-idioms-meaning-origins.html).
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 04, 2019, 12:52:44 PM
20. Dish fit for the gods
Meaning: a very scrumptious or delectable meal
Origin: We can thank Shakespeare for this expression (found in Julius Caesar), but we can also thank him for “foaming at the mouth” (Julius Caesar), “hot blooded” (The Merry Wives of Windsor), “in stitches” (Twelfth Night), “green-eyed monster” (Othello), “wearing your heart on your sleeve” (Othello), and “one fell swoop” (Macbeth).
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 04, 2019, 01:43:11 PM
you hang out with truck drivers
No,they're usually driving.Too busy to be babbling on sports forums,why you moonlighting?Is that what they say?
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MarqHusker on March 04, 2019, 05:49:27 PM
We all know where Upset comes from don't we?
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on March 04, 2019, 05:50:33 PM
The whole nine yards:

I have heard that this comes from fighter pilots in WWII.  Apparently the .50 cal ammo belts were 27 ft (9 yards) long and if a pilot unloaded all of his ammunition on one target he would say that he "gave him the whole nine yards."  

I wondered about this one for a long time because it makes no sense as a football reference.  
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 04, 2019, 06:10:30 PM
Also heard the 9 yds pertained to sailing.When they wanted more speed they gave it the whole 9 yds."the whole nine yards" comes from an old sailing phrase. a sail was 3 yards three masted ship would let out the "whole nine yards"Heard about the ammo belt stories also
:08:
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 04, 2019, 06:45:36 PM
https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-whole-nine-yards.html

The earliest known example of the phrase in print that I know of is from an Indiana newspaper The Mitchell Commercial, 2nd May 1907:
Quote
This afternoon at 2:30 will be called one of the baseball games that will be worth going a long way to see. The regular nine is going to play the business men as many innings as they can stand, but we can not promise the full nine yards.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 04, 2019, 07:11:39 PM
Supposedly a cement mixer full holds 9 yds
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MarqHusker on March 04, 2019, 08:52:37 PM
Another one I use often, courtesy of my late Grandfather is  'fit to be tied.'      It's usage is easily early 19th century in Britain,  can be observed in mid 1800s U.S. newspaper print as well.  It is to be mean extremely angry, though only in an expressive sense, as the threat of pending violence is meant to be figurative.  I suspect there was likely usage to suggest one who may fit for a straightjacket.

My Grandfather used it when he saw a coach hollering and stomping around on the sidelines.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 05, 2019, 07:06:01 AM
It's interesting how different 9 cubic yards is from 9 linear yards.

Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on March 05, 2019, 07:26:00 AM
Not if you line all the cubes up in a row. 
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: fezzador on March 05, 2019, 08:34:00 AM
not until the cows come home

Not for a long time. Presumably the time referred to is when cows return to the barn for milking. The term has been around since the late sixteenth century. Beaumont and Fletcher's play The Scornful Lady (1610) stated, "Kiss till the cow come home.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Hawkinole on March 07, 2019, 12:45:45 AM
Hold your horses! A law school professor once told us, that early artillerymen did not just say, "Ready, aim, fire!" But before they fired would also holler, "Hold your horses!" I don't know of any evidence to support this; it seems logical.
If you go to Mackinac Island and go atop it to the former U.S. Army installation that was vacated in the 1890s after Canada was deemed not our enemy, they fire a demonstration cannon. This video does not give it the full effect. It is deafening. So of course I was anxious to share my story when we were last there about 10-years ago, about "Hold your horses!" And --- no it is not incorporated into the presentation they give. But then when I was there, they had American re-enactors, not turncoats re-enactors. What gives, ELA?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoO2Kp5NKKc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoO2Kp5NKKc)
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 08, 2019, 11:06:29 AM
One of my old bosses lived in Virginia and was a part of re-enactments down there, and he and his "regiment" had a cannon. He passed away last year, and they actually managed to get his ashes fired out of it at the funeral. He was an interesting boss; probably one of my best.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 08, 2019, 11:36:12 AM
Sounds like he was a blast - pun intended 
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: CWSooner on March 11, 2019, 07:22:13 PM
Hold your horses! A law school professor once told us, that early artillerymen did not just say, "Ready, aim, fire!" But before they fired would also holler, "Hold your horses!" I don't know of any evidence to support this; it seems logical.
It could refer to the old horse cavalry rather than artillery.  When cavalry troopers fought dismounted, every fourth man was a horse-holder who took the horses back to a rear a bit while the other 3/4 of the men fought.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: CWSooner on March 11, 2019, 07:53:29 PM
The whole nine yards:

I have heard that this comes from fighter pilots in WWII.  Apparently the .50 cal ammo belts were 27 ft (9 yards) long and if a pilot unloaded all of his ammunition on one target he would say that he "gave him the whole nine yards."  

I wondered about this one for a long time because it makes no sense as a football reference.  
I'm pretty sure that one is not true.  The length of an ammo belt in a fighter would depend on how much room there was for the ammo.  With rare exceptions, the guns were in the wings, and the more guns per wing, the less room for the ammo boxes, so the fewer rounds per gun.
F4F-3 Wildcat: 4 x .50 caliber, 450 rpg.
F4F-4 Wildcat: 6 x .50 caliber, 240 rpg.
P-51B/C Mustang: 4 x .50 caliber, 350 rpg inboard; 220 rpg outboard.
P-51D Mustang: 6 x .50 caliber, 400 rpg inboard; 270 rpg mid- and outboard.  (The wing was deepened from that on the B and C model, and allowed more volume for ammo, but there was still more room for ammo for the inboard guns compared to the other four.)
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: FearlessF on March 14, 2019, 10:04:05 AM
The purity of gold is measured in carat weight. The term "carat" comes from "carob seed," which was standard for weighing small quantities in the Middle East. Carats were the fruit of the leguminous carob tree, every single pod of which weighs 1/5 of a gram (200 mg)
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 14, 2019, 10:15:24 AM
The term "shrapnel" comes from the name of an English officer, Major (later General) Henry Shrapnel.

The term "flak" is German in origin.

The term "blitzkrieg" was not used by the Germans.  What they employed we'd call "combined arms warfare" today.

The French had more and heavier tanks than did the Germans in 1940, plus the Maginot Line, and the BEF.

Napoleon and Hitler both invaded Russia on June 22.  

Many of our military terms are directly from the French language, enfilade and fort and ambush, for example.

The Britons who inhabited "England" after the fall of the Roman Empire were pushed west by the Saxons and Jutes and Angles who created "Engaland" over time.  Many of the Britons moved to a peninsula on the French coast we now call Brittany, inhabited by Bretons.  The Saxons were then pushed around by the Danes over time into one remaining kingdom, Wessex, which was saved by Alfred the Great, the only English kind called "the Great".  Over time, Wessex consolidated England into a country until 1066 when it was invaded by a "Frenchman" from Normandy., Guillaume le Conquerant".  We call him Bill.  He became King of England and a vassal to the King of France at the same time, which led to all sorts of ructions over the next 800 years.

The terms Tsar or Czar and Kaiser come from the name Caesar.  

Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 15, 2019, 10:23:55 AM
Many of our military terms are directly from the French language
Does that include skedaddle,surrender or retreat? ;D
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 15, 2019, 10:26:32 AM
c. 1300, "a step backward;" late 14c., "act of retiring or withdrawing; military signal for retiring from action or exercise," from Old French retret, noun use of past participle of retrere "draw back," from Latin retrahere "draw back, withdraw, call back," from re- "back" (see re- (https://www.etymonline.com/word/re-?ref=etymonline_crossreference)) + trahere "to draw" (see tract (https://www.etymonline.com/word/tract?ref=etymonline_crossreference#etymonline_v_16846) (n.1)). Meaning "place of seclusion" is from early 15c.; sense of "establishment for mentally ill persons" is from 1797. Meaning "period of retirement for religious self-examination" is from 1756.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 15, 2019, 10:29:10 AM
So your mentally ill if you retire for religious self-examination?
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: CWSooner on March 15, 2019, 10:26:34 PM
The term "shrapnel" comes from the name of an English officer, Major (later General) Henry Shrapnel.

The term "flak" is German in origin.

The term "blitzkrieg" was not used by the Germans.  What they employed we'd call "combined arms warfare" today.

The French had more and heavier tanks than did the Germans in 1940, plus the Maginot Line, and the BEF.

Napoleon and Hitler both invaded Russia on June 22.  

Many of our military terms are directly from the French language, enfilade and fort and ambush, for example.

The Britons who inhabited "England" after the fall of the Roman Empire were pushed west by the Saxons and Jutes and Angles who created "Engaland" over time.  Many of the Britons moved to a peninsula on the French coast we now call Brittany, inhabited by Bretons.  The Saxons were then pushed around by the Danes over time into one remaining kingdom, Wessex, which was saved by Alfred the Great, the only English kind called "the Great".  Over time, Wessex consolidated England into a country until 1066 when it was invaded by a "Frenchman" from Normandy., Guillaume le Conquerant".  We call him Bill.  He became King of England and a vassal to the King of France at the same time, which led to all sorts of ructions over the next 800 years.

The terms Tsar or Czar and Kaiser come from the name Caesar.
"Flak" is short for "flugabwehrkanone": aircraft defense cannon.
"Stuka" is short for "sturzkampfflugzeug": dive-bomber.
The Germans have a way with contractions.
The Germans in 1940 had radios in every tank, so the small-unit commanders could communicate with their subordinates while "buttoned up."  The French tanks did not.  Only the commanders got radios in their tanks, so they had to communicate with their subordinates using signal flags or hand-and-arm signals.  The Germans could react to changes in the situation much more quickly than the French.  This reflected the preferred operational art of the two armies.  The Germans thought in terms of fluid battles where speed and flexibility were important and the goal was to find weak points, penetrate them, and exploit the enemy rear.  The French thought in terms of set-piece battles on linear battlefields where they could keep everything in front of them.
William the Conqueror was a descendant of Vikings (Norsemen) who began raiding the area later named after them (Normandy) in the 8th century.
The Vikings and their descendants loved living in the warmer places they conquered, like Normandy, Sicily, and southern Russia.

Per Wikipedia, the Font of All Wisdom and Knowledge:

"The cognomen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognomen) "Caesar" originated, according to Pliny the Elder (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder), with an ancestor who was born by Caesarean section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarean_section) (from the Latin verb to cut, caederecaes-).[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar#cite_note-11) The Historia Augusta (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustan_History) suggests three alternative explanations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymology_of_the_name_of_Julius_Caesar): that the first Caesar had a thick head of hair (Latin caesaries); that he had bright grey eyes (Latin oculis caesiis); or that he killed an elephant (caesai in Moorish) in battle.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar#cite_note-12) Caesar issued coins featuring images of elephants, suggesting that he favored this interpretation of his name."

My H.S. Latin teacher favored the first explanation, and said that a rough translation of "Caesar" could be the English name "Butcher."
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 16, 2019, 04:23:06 AM
Rollo was the Northman who kept raiding France up the Seine River.  Finally the French King agreed he could have Normandy if he pledged fealty to the king, which he did.  William came along a bit later, a bastard I think.  I visited his castle in Falaise, home of the infamous Falaise Pocket.

So, the English language has influences from Latin, Old French, newer French, Old German, Celtic, and Scandanavian, and who knows what else.

I am slowly learning French and am amazed how many terms we have in common.  It's encroyable.

Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 16, 2019, 09:05:00 AM
Rollo was the Northman who kept raiding France up the Seine River.  Finally the French King agreed he could have Normandy if he pledged fealty to the king, which he did.  William came along a bit later, a bastard I think.  I visited his castle in Falaise, home of the infamous Falaise Pocket.
That the fookin' mongrel Monty halted Gen's Patton's and Haislip's from closing (Aug 13) because the BEF needed a headline and a morale boost.Then the Canadians and BEF didn't finally close until Aug 22.Which is no big deal if you don't mind these 50-125,000 soldiers fighting later at Market Garden and in the Ardennes.Costing God knows how many more casualties and extending the war.Oh and Good Morning CD
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on March 16, 2019, 01:26:46 PM
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[font=Segoe UI, Segoe UI Web (West European), Segoe UI, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Roboto, Helvetica Neue, sans-serif]The kids filed into class Monday morning.  They were all very excited  Their weekend assignment was to sell something, then give a talk on salesmanship.  Little  Sally led off.  "I sold Girl Scout cookies and I made $30" she said proudly.  "My sales approach was to appeal to the customer's civic spirit and I credit that approach for my obvious success."

"Very  good," said the teacher.

Little Debbie was next.  "I sold magazines," she said.  "I made $45 and I explained to everyone that magazines would keep them up on current events."

"Very good, Debbie," said the teacher.

Eventually it was Little Johnny's turn.  The teacher held her breath.  Little Johnny walked to the front of the classroom and dumped a box full of cash on the teacher's desk. "$2,467," he said.

"$2,467!" cried the teacher, "What in the world were you selling?"

"Toothbrushes," said Little Johnny.

"Toothbrushes," echoed the teacher.  "How could you possibly sell enough toothbrushes to make that much money?"

I  found the busiest corner in town," said Little Johnny.  "I set up a Dip & Chip stand and I gave everybody who walked by a free sample."  They all said the same thing, "Hey, this tastes like dog shit."  I would say, "It is dog shit.  Wanna buy a toothbrush?" 

 
I used the politicians method of giving you some crap, dressing it up so it looks good, telling you it's free and then making you pay to get the bad taste out of your mouth.

Little  Johnny got five stars for his assignment.
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Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 16, 2019, 07:26:11 PM
The Britons who inhabited "England" after the fall of the Roman Empire were pushed west by the Saxons and Jutes and Angles who created "Engaland" over time.  Many of the Britons moved to a peninsula on the French coast we now call Brittany, inhabited by Bretons.  The Saxons were then pushed around by the Danes over time into one remaining kingdom, Wessex, which was saved by Alfred the Great, the only English kind called "the Great".  Over time, Wessex consolidated England into a country until 1066 when it was invaded by a "Frenchman" from Normandy., Guillaume le Conquerant".  We call him Bill.  He became King of England and a vassal to the King of France at the same time, which led to all sorts of ructions over the next 800 years.

Interesting... I have a coworker whose name is Guillermo, but goes by Bill. I always wondered how the two were related.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: CWSooner on March 17, 2019, 11:26:37 AM
Interesting... I have a coworker whose name is Guillermo, but goes by Bill. I always wondered how the two were related.
Guillaume is the French equivalent of William.  Guillermo is the same name in Italian.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 17, 2019, 11:44:33 AM
Yeah, in French, it's pronounced something like "Gee-ohm" with a hard G.  I have a friend in Cincy with that name.  He's also from Normandy.

We stayed at a wonderful B&B run by parents of a friend of his in Flottemanville on the peninsula.  I was chatting with the owner and he told me a story about how Dick Winters saved his grandfather.  He had newspaper articles of the two of them meeting up after the war.  He had no real idea who Dick Winters was now.

We're headed back that way in May, but to Brittany which the wife claims is wonderful.    We're touring with two couples from there.  I've only seen the eastern parts like Mont St. Michel and La Baule and a bit around there.

I'd like to see Brest and St. Malo but I'm told there is little left from the war.  We often don't appreciate how much we bombed France, and of course some of our earliest combat in WW II was against French soldiers.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 17, 2019, 11:50:47 AM
https://frenchtogether.com/french-words-in-english/

Other common French words used in English



The vocabulary of warfare and the military include many words of French origin (battalion (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/battalion)dragoon (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dragoon)soldier (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/soldier)marine (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/marine)grenadier (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/grenadier)guard (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/guard)officer (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/officer)infantry (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/infantry)cavalry (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cavalry)army (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/army)artillery (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/artillery)corvette (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corvette)musketeer (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/musketeer)carabineer (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/carabineer)pistol (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pistol)fusilier (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fusilier)squad (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/squad)squadron (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/squadron)platoon (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/platoon)brigade (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brigade)corps (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corps)sortie (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sortie)reconnaissance (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reconnaissance)/reconnoitre (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/reconnoitre)surrender (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/surrender)surveillance (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/surveillance)rendezvous (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rendezvous)espionage (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/espionage)volley (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/volley)siege (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/siege)terrain (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/terrain)troop (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/troop)camouflage (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/camouflage)logistics (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/logistics)matériel (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mat%C3%A9riel)accoutrements (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/accoutrements)bivouac (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bivouac)latrine (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/latrine)aide-de-camp (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aide-de-camp)legionnaire (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/legionnaire)morale (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/morale)esprit de corps (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/esprit_de_corps)cordon sanitaire (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cordon_sanitaire)). This includes military ranks: corporal (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/corporal)sergeant (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sergeant)lieutenant (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lieutenant)captain (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/captain)colonel (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/colonel)general (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/general)admiral (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/admiral). Many fencing terms (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fencing_terms) are also from French.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: CWSooner on March 17, 2019, 12:05:33 PM
CD:

It may be difficult for someone who knows nothing about military history to believe, but once upon a time, when armies were becoming larger and the need for terminology also expanding, French armies--Napoleon's armies--were the standard of the world.

I have thought that "admiral" originated as an Arabic word, and came into European use through Spain.

P.S. Per the Font of All Wisdom and Knowledge:

Quote
Admiral is one of the highest ranks in some navies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navy), and in many navies is the highest rank. It is usually abbreviated to "Adm" or "ADM". The rank is generally thought to have originated in Sicily from a conflation of Arabic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language)أمير البحر‎, amīr (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Am%C4%ABr) al-baḥr, "commander of the sea", with Latin admirabilis[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Admiral#cite_note-1) ("admirable") or admiratus ("admired"), although alternative etymologies derive the word directly from Latin, or from the Turkish military and naval rank miralay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miralay). The French version – amiral without the additional d – tends to add evidence for the Arab origin.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 17, 2019, 03:54:39 PM
As you know, Napoleon adopted tactics suited for conscripts not well trained, while the British army - far smaller - was highly trained.  I'm told at Waterloo the British soldiers killed were in lines where they fought and died, or in square.  The British ability to maneuver was superb.   Wellington's Peninsula Campaigns were as close to brilliant as any in history I think.

"mid 18th century (as a noun in the sense ‘tactical movement’): from French manœuvre (noun), manœuvrer (verb)"

The French military today is more of a punchline, but not well deserved when you go back in time, like Battle of Tour, one of the most significant in Western history.  That one really put the hammer on the "Moors" (Umyyads).

Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: CWSooner on March 20, 2019, 11:16:37 AM
Yep.  British lines and squares vs. French massed columns, preceded by massed artillery fire.

Napoleon wasn't at his best at Waterloo.  Nor were his subordinates.  He was ill and issued unclear orders.  Meanwhile, they continually let him down, what with Grouchy's uninspired "pursuit" of the Prussians that took him out of the battle while letting the Prussians rejoin it, and Ney losing control of himself and acting like a brigadier rather than a Marshal of France.

Napoleon's tactics really came a cropper when they were applied in the age of rifle fire, like in the American Civil War.

When I was teaching at Leavenworth, we published a book subtitled That Fatal Knot (available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Compound-Warfare-That-Fatal-Knot/dp/141021530X (https://www.amazon.com/Compound-Warfare-That-Fatal-Knot/dp/141021530X)), which was what Napoleon called Spain.  The book was on fortified compound warfare, and Wellington's Peninsula Campaign was one of the prime examples.

Since this thread is ostensibly about old sayings and their roots, it's worth noting that the term "Old Guard" comes from Napoleon's army, of course.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Riffraft on March 20, 2019, 12:38:56 PM
Heard one the other day "it is time to pay the piper" Never considered where is came from before then, but figure it must come from the Pied Piper of Hamlet story.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: Cincydawg on March 20, 2019, 02:22:34 PM
The rifled bore was a major change in military operations, obviously, followed not long thereafter with rapid firing breech loading rifles and cartridges.

The French 75 was a significant development, as were of course "tanks", called "Char" in French (after chariot) and panzer in German.

We got to tour part of the Maginot line.  Every tiny village in France has an obelisk with names on it from those KIA in WW I.  I've been in tiny places where they had 50-60 names on the memorial.  The French lost almost the entire generation.  By 1935, their demographics were horrible, and Maginot realized he needed fortifications to enable fewer men to man a longer area between France and Germany, the actual border.  The line of course "worked" on a tactical basis.  The French strategy was to fight the war on the defensive AND in Belgium, as northern France was heavily damaged in the first war.  They adhered to that concept, fine concept as it was, except that the Germans (Manstein) had other ideas.

Had the Germans continued with their modified Schlieffen plan, it's likely the war in France would have lasted quite a bit longer.  Make sure the Right is strong!
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: CWSooner on March 25, 2019, 02:25:18 PM
From the Font of All Wisdom and Knowledge:
"Hoist with his own petard" is a phrase from a speech in William Shakespeare's play Hamlet that has become proverbial. The phrase's meaning is literally that the bomb-maker (a "petard" is a small explosive device) is blown up ("hoisted" off the ground) by his own bomb, and indicates an ironic reversal, or poetic justice.
The phrase occurs in a central speech in the play in which Hamlet has discovered a plot on his life by Claudius and resolves to respond to it by letting the plotter be "Hoist with his own petard." Although the now-proverbial phrase is the best known part of the speech, it and the later sea voyage and pirate attack are central to critical arguments regarding the play.
The phrase, and its containing speech, exist in only one of three early printed versions of the play — the second quarto edition — and scholars are divided on whether this is indicative of authorial intent, or a mere artefact of playhouse practicalities.
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on April 03, 2019, 08:18:18 AM
Sorry,CW but I've never heard that expression
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: FearlessF on April 03, 2019, 09:14:36 AM
not a "Hamlet" lover?
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: MrNubbz on April 03, 2019, 09:26:46 AM
I like ham & eggs
Title: Re: Old sayings and their roots
Post by: CWSooner on April 03, 2019, 01:35:17 PM
Green eggs and ham?