CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: CatsbyAZ on February 14, 2019, 11:55:19 AM
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More discussion to be had here than on the actual Pac 12 board – from what little you guys probably follow of the West Coast’s flagship conference, what are your thoughts as of late?
I’ll start by saying that football & basketball-wise the Pac 12 is in a major decline. Stanford’s 9 win seasons would be 6-6 if played in the Big Ten or SEC, USC is nearing a recruiting generation away from the Bama-level recruiting and conference domination they had under Pete, Chip Kelly is off to an awful start in Westwood and his recruiting is mediocre or worse two years running now, and the consistently best team in Washington can’t make plays downfield with the conferences most dependable QB. That’s just a start.
When it comes to basketball, there’s not a single ranked program, and as whole uncertainty is dragging on with NCAA scandals (Arizona and USC), midseason coaching firings (UCLA), and generally unremarkable play and lack of promise from both experienced and new coaching staffs alike.
In both sports attendance is down across the board.
And the Pac 12 Network, which was supposed to generate millions per school isn’t panning out. The network has only a fourth of the reach of ESPN/Fox Sports, nor anywhere close to the audience reach of the Big Ten and SEC Networks, with actual ratings proportionally far less than those networks, and with many live airings generating a ZERO viewership share beyond the event’s local market: https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/09/21/p12n-xxxxx/ (https://www.mercurynews.com/2017/09/21/p12n-xxxxx/)
It’s easy to blame the commissioner’s (Larry Scott) emphasis on promoting Olympics sports (that’ve never really had a TV following) and his focus on globalizing the Pac 12’s brand in places like China, but I highly doubt that even amidst a decline in ratings and attendance Larry Scott will be pressured to move on from those who can show him the door.
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I do think that part of the issue is just cultural. Living out here, people don't care. Here in SoCal, basketball is 90% Lakers/Clippers unless you or a family member attended UCLA. College football is slightly bigger, but I expect that will trend down a lot now that we have two Los Angeles NFL teams. I suspect a lot of USC fans [non-students and non-alum] will more naturally shift to the Rams or Chargers than continue to follow USC.
California in general has an extremely robust college system, with a BUNCH of UC schools outside of the two who have real sports (UCLA / Cal), and USC and Stanford are small elite private schools. Most people who go to college end up at any number of other UC campuses, at Cal State campuses, or any number of other private schools.
I think AZ, OR, WA are better culturally for college football, as those states basically have two "big" schools vying for eyeballs instead of the multitude in CA. But I think compared to the 800-lb gorilla (CA population), it's not enough to move the needle of a PAC-12 network.
I think there's a cultural problem, and I'm not sure how to fix it.
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I don't understand the Pac 12 "Networks." There is more than one? I read an article on this recently and couldn't really understand how that system was supposed to work. The B1G Network has a lot of dog programming, but at least there is just the one channel.
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Youth participation is waning on the Left coast due to concussions, and the CA culture largely condemns the level of manliness that is necessary in order to be competitive at College FB on a National level.
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Youth participation is waning on the Left coast due to concussions, and the CA culture largely condemns the level of manliness that is necessary in order to be competitive at College FB on a National level.
Don't forget, we like granola and kale too. :96:
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I'm also torn for a rooting interest. Arizona used to be my favorite Pac 10 team, but then they added my favorite Big XII team along with my favorite Mountain West team. And if that wasn't bad enough, they stuck all three into the same division.
I'm kinda leaning towards the Utes I suppose, but mostly due to the fact that they are 3-0 vs the last three Michigan coaches.
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I agree with @bwarbiany (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) . I think it is mostly a cultural issue and I'm not sure that there is a magic fix available.
There are LOTS of sports teams on the West Coast and I think that creates a saturation issue. I think the fans, such as they are, tend to follow whoever is doing well and ignore everybody else. You can see that with USC. When they were a perennial NC contender under PC they had fans but now they aren't and as far as I can tell they don't have any substantial quantity of fans anymore.
I think there are two other things that play into it. Schools like USC, Stanford, and Miami (FL) are relatively small private schools. They don't have a lot of alumni and I think that alumni are typically your hardiest fans. I'm an Ohio State alum so I'll always be an Ohio State fan. Even if they suck, I'll still be an alum, that doesn't change. I think it is different for more casual fans. Non-alums can change allegiance where alums really can't.
I think there are two other problems for the PAC that involve demographics. There are a LOT of people in California but how many are truly "Californians"? I would guess that a substantial percentage of them were born in another state or another country. That isn't as common in the midwest. I'm an Ohioan. I was born here and I've lived here for almost 44 years. Both of my parents were born here. Two of my grandparents were born here (the other two moved here from Oklahoma and Georgia more than 100 years ago). How many people are that rooted to California? I would guess less than the number that are that attached to Ohio. My point is that I would guess that a substantial percentage of California's population roots for teams from back home (like @bwarbiany (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) ) or roots for soccer teams or whatever.
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There are LOTS of sports teams on the West Coast and I think that creates a saturation issue. I think the fans, such as they are, tend to follow whoever is doing well and ignore everybody else. You can see that with USC. When they were a perennial NC contender under PC they had fans but now they aren't and as far as I can tell they don't have any substantial quantity of fans anymore.
I think there are two other things that play into it. Schools like USC, Stanford, and Miami (FL) are relatively small private schools. They don't have a lot of alumni and I think that alumni are typically your hardiest fans. I'm an Ohio State alum so I'll always be an Ohio State fan. Even if they suck, I'll still be an alum, that doesn't change. I think it is different for more casual fans. Non-alums can change allegiance where alums really can't.
I'm closest to USC, and I think a lot of this is spot on.
USC's fan base here in SoCal is *heavily* people who have no actual connection to the school. I think this fan base had a lot to do with the fact that USC was the closest thing we had to a pro team for a very long time, AND because they were really good. Now neither of those things are true. We have two pro teams in LA, and they're both good. It really is a "pro" town, and now that we have actual NFL teams, I think it will revert to caring a lot more about the Rams than the Trojans.
I think there are two other problems for the PAC that involve demographics. There are a LOT of people in California but how many are truly "Californians"? I would guess that a substantial percentage of them were born in another state or another country. That isn't as common in the midwest. I'm an Ohioan. I was born here and I've lived here for almost 44 years. Both of my parents were born here. Two of my grandparents were born here (the other two moved here from Oklahoma and Georgia more than 100 years ago). How many people are that rooted to California? I would guess less than the number that are that attached to Ohio. My point is that I would guess that a substantial percentage of California's population roots for teams from back home (like @bwarbiany (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) ) or roots for soccer teams or whatever.
I think this is somewhat true, but not as much as you think. While we joke that everyone in California is from somewhere else, this is still a state of almost 40M people. I did a little quick googling and apparently 27% of the state (twice the national average) is foreign-born. And maybe another 25% was born outside of CA. But that's still 20M people. The only other states in the entire US with over 20M people are Texas and Florida. That should be more than enough to support sports fandom.
I think the issue is more cultural than a matter of where these people are from. College football just isn't particularly important here. People don't grow up, like they do in Alabama, having to declare allegiance to the Tide or the Tigers. People don't sit around the office on Friday discussing USC's matchup for Saturday. And that's not a population issue; it's a culture issue. CFB just isn't pervasive here the way it is elsewhere.
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I find the notion that the Midwest is just football crazy to be somewhat exaggerated. I work at a sports related company, in Columbus, and out of 50 employees that might be about a half a dozen of us that are Buckeye crazy. There are another dozen or so that are "casual" Buckeye fans. They watch the big games and enough highlights of the other games that they can make it to and from the water cooler without making a complete ass out of themselves if one of us die hards are nearby. These people would be unable to delve even an inch beneath the surface. Their eyeballs would gloss over if you asked them to list the teams in the Big Ten East. The other two dozen or so employees don't even pretend to give a crap about sports. They are just grateful to have gained employment in an industry that values their ill-advised art degree. If you try to broach the topic of sports with one of these people, they will just roll their eyes and shake their head.
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The best fans are probably the ones in Oregon (both schools) and Utah, from what I've seen (former) and noticed on TV (latter). Washington does pretty well because it has a large alumni base, but Seattle always has a Seahawks buzz. The bay area is 49'ers (and the lame duck team to the East). LA is now the Rams. Phoenix is made up almost entirely of people not from Phoenix. I'm not sure what Colorado cares about besides the Broncos.
Maybe USC needs to move to San Diego.
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The best fans are probably the ones in Oregon (both schools) and Utah, from what I've seen (former) and noticed on TV (latter). Washington does pretty well because it has a large alumni base, but Seattle always has a Seahawks buzz. The bay area is 49'ers (and the lame duck team to the East). LA is now the Rams. Phoenix is made up almost entirely of people not from Phoenix. I'm not sure what Colorado cares about besides the Broncos.
Maybe USC needs to move to San Diego.
Or it needs to move to the opposite side of the country. In the Southeast, pro teams are, at best, on equal footing with their NCAA counterparts.
Hypothetically, if the NFL expanded into Birmingham, it would end up relocating within a decade because Alabama and Auburn would completely drown it out, support-wise.
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Or it needs to move to the opposite side of the country. In the Southeast, pro teams are, at best, on equal footing with their NCAA counterparts.
Hypothetically, if the NFL expanded into Birmingham, it would end up relocating within a decade because Alabama and Auburn would completely drown it out, support-wise.
Hostile takeover over the other USC?
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Yes. Corporate merge. CFB isn't big enough for two USCs.
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Lots of people (not guys like us) didn't know there was another one until Lou Holtz showed up. Serious.
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I don't understand the Pac 12 "Networks." There is more than one? I read an article on this recently and couldn't really understand how that system was supposed to work. The B1G Network has a lot of dog programming, but at least there is just the one channel.
There’s a lot to be spoken for in later posts, especially when it comes to the disinterested culture of PAC 12 sports, but bringing up the PAC 12 “networks” is a bone I particularly wanted to pick. Whereas the BIG & SEC are available nationally for their regional coverage, the Great Lakes and the South respectively, the PAC 12 was unrolled with the Fox Sports regional channel format in mind – i.e. FS Arizona, FS Detroit, FS Carolinas – which to me seemed like splitting a pie, already smaller than the BIG & SEC, too many ways. The PAC 12 “networks” tried (sub)regionalizing Arizona, LA, Oregon, etc, which is really upsetting when I’m in LA during an Arizona basketball game and flip on the PAC 12 “networks” to instead find it’s the PAC 12 LA version, airing old UCLA Vs SC replays.
The bigger reason the PAC 12 network was never going to work as well as the BIG & SEC networks was due to spread of fan support. There are “Chicago Bars” all over Phoenix, for example, hosting large Sunday morning brunches for the local Bears fans. Same for the Vikings. And same for the Packers and Steelers to an even larger extent. And any number of sports bars across Tucson and Phoenix open at 9AM on Fall Saturdays to serve all the Great Lakes transplants the BIG Network’s noon EST kickoffs.
Meanwhile, pick any city east of the Mississippi. Other than NYC and DC, there’s almost no PAC 12 alumni clubs. UCLA does not have an alumni club in, say, Baltimore for Bruins fans to catch the 10PM EST kickoffs. Nor is there a Washington Huskies alumni club in Pittsburgh for doing the same. Or an Arizona Wildcats fan club in Charlotte airing all the 9PM weeknight basketball tipoffs. In other words, there’s no market for PAC 12 viewers going East.
Meanwhile, throughout Phoenix and Tucson, there are NUMEROUS bars dedicated to Badger, Buckeye, Wolverine, Hawkeye, and Nittany Lion kickoffs, all drawing large, native crowds. Looking at all the houses of my parent’s subdivision outside of Phoenix there are numerous flags, bumper stickers, and welcome mats for Big Ten Schools.
It cannot be stated enough that a huge disadvantage the PAC 12 “networks” ignored was the lack of PAC 12 followings spilling readily into other time zones.
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I've had great times at Badger bars in Newport, LA, Seattle and Scottsdale. I think the last one is my favorite. That place rocks on football Saturdays. But they are all really cool, and absolutely packed.
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I think the issue is more cultural than a matter of where these people are from. College football just isn't particularly important here. People don't grow up, like they do in Alabama, having to declare allegiance to the Tide or the Tigers. People don't sit around the office on Friday discussing USC's matchup for Saturday. And that's not a population issue; it's a culture issue. CFB just isn't pervasive here the way it is elsewhere.
The “culture” reason is too simplified of an answer without asking why the comparatively lesser culture is further waning. Why are PAC 12 sports declining from a solid option B entertainment to option C or D? The crosstown rivalry game doesn’t sell out anymore. Like your Alabama/Auburn example, I remember as a six year old in Florida getting asked by my fellow first grade buddies whether I was a Gator (“yes”) or a Nole (“no”). The sports following of the South fosters fan followings that transcends the alumni bases. You’ll hear Baptist pastors reference yesterday’s game and local car dealers incorporate the rivalries into their marketing. That doesn’t happen in Southern Cal for UCLA Vs USC. Save for SC’s Leinart/Bush dynasty 10-15 years ago, the Bruin and Trojan fandoms are only contained to their alumni bases. You’re a Trojan or Bruin when admitted into those schools whereas you’re a Gator or Nole by the time you turn six.
For Southern programs, the fan support and attendance through plateaued periods will emerge from dormancy and roar back when a good product is back on the field. This isn’t the case out West. To use UCLA as example, the Bruins are in the midst of losing out on a generation of younger fans due to twenty years of mediocre, uninspiring football and basketball. Those younger fans whose parents might be Bruins aren’t laying in hibernation and due to wake up when the Bruins might be good again – they’ve moved on if they were ever in the door and won’t be paying attention if UCLA regains their past successes.
To continue with UCLA, compare their current student allegiances to those of Alabama or Auburn whose students who grew up learning the program histories and are planning on attending the pep rallies and games. UCLA continues to foster such a large foreign student body a lot of their incoming students have no idea what it’s like to attend a college football game, don’t know the names of coaches or players, and don’t stay Bruins in the sense of following their sports programs after graduation. (Compare this to Michigan’s very sizable foreign student population who do in fact participate in Michigan’s sports culture).
Another hurdle the PAC 12 is dealing with is the different nature of regional sports coverage out West, which I want to address in a later post.
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An on-campus stadiette (50K or so) might help UCLA. The Rose Bowl is too big and it's pretty damn far away from campus. And traffic.. Yuck.
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That doesn’t happen in Southern Cal for UCLA Vs USC. Save for SC’s Leinart/Bush dynasty 10-15 years ago, the Bruin and Trojan fandoms are only contained to their alumni bases. You’re a Trojan or Bruin when admitted into those schools whereas you’re a Gator or Nole by the time you turn six.
I disagree that they're only contained to their alumni bases. For example, my wife is barely a college sports fan at all (going to UCSB will do that to you). But she backs UCLA over USC, more out of hating USC. And there are a lot of fans of USC here that have NO connection to USC, because for a while it was the closest equivalent to an NFL team in SoCal.
I think for the older generation of native Angelinos [although I hate that word], I do think USC/UCLA had some of that rivalry swagger that extended beyond the alumni base into the rest of the city. USC is "helmet" in football, and UCLA had the Wooden domination years in basketball. The Rose Bowl is an event, and MANY years it was either USC or UCLA in it, so the locals had a prominent national event on a national holiday to root for a team. But I think it has waned, and it's nearly gone now. And the re-emergence of NFL football here will make everyone forget it ever existed.
For Southern programs, the fan support and attendance through plateaued periods will emerge from dormancy and roar back when a good product is back on the field. This isn’t the case out West. To use UCLA as example, the Bruins are in the midst of losing out on a generation of younger fans due to twenty years of mediocre, uninspiring football and basketball. Those younger fans whose parents might be Bruins aren’t laying in hibernation and due to wake up when the Bruins might be good again – they’ve moved on if they were ever in the door and won’t be paying attention if UCLA regains their past successes.
This I do agree with. I think in the Southeast, that culture of "you're a fan of one team or the other, starting with childhood", still exists. I don't think it exists out here on the West Coast, and I don't think it's coming back.
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USC Alumni Club of Atlanta. 734 likes. Connecting members of the Trojan Family in the greater Atlanta area!
That's a Facebook page, don't know how active they are. Atlanta may be something akin to CA, hardly anyone is from here.
College football is less than it used to be other than out in the 'burbs. MSL soccer is huge, they routinely get over 70 K at a game, and the games look amazing on TV. I'm going to try to attend one.
I live about 2 miles from the GT campus but I sense they have a lot of foreign students now for whom CFB is not cultural. Folks are building a LOT of new high rise private dorms on this side of the freeway, maybe their enrollment is climbing. GT used to be very interested in CFB.
I see a lot of SEC team license plates around, GA has special plates for nearly every SEC team. Making money.
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I disagree that they're only contained to their alumni bases. For example, my wife is barely a college sports fan at all (going to UCSB will do that to you). But she backs UCLA over USC, more out of hating USC. And there are a lot of fans of USC here that have NO connection to USC, because for a while it was the closest equivalent to an NFL team in SoCal.
I agree, especially given the history of the SC-UCLA rivalry. Come to think of it I know a few USC fans who went elsewhere for school. It seems now though, their once readily available followings have eroded to the point it now takes SC football or UCLA basketball gaining national attention before the local market gives their notice, which is another angle I wanted to get to with how the local sports coverage creates yet another hurdle for fostering PAC 12 fan support.
In your first post when you said “Here in SoCal, basketball is 90% Lakers/Clippers unless you or a family member attended UCLA,” it’s also more accurately that the local coverage is 90% Lakers/Clippers regardless of what the actual fan followings are. Because most of the PAC 12 schools are schools centered in large metro areas the attention paid to them on the local radio, newspaper, and news broadcasts are completely drowned out by the emphasis on the Pro teams. The Seahawks receive 90% of talk radio attention in Seattle. As do the Cardinals in the Phoenix, the Broncos in Denver, and the Niners/Raiders in the Bay Area, leaving Huskies, Sun Devils, Buffalos, and Stanford & Cal lucky enough to receive 1 or 2 radio segments throughout an entire in-season week of almost all NFL talk.
It thus takes a specific interest in the college teams coupled with a willingness to dig for the nearly underground coverage their college teams receive from a few beat writers, dedicated podcasts, and the postgame call-ins. In NFL/NBA markets out West, college sports are treated like niche interests, similar to Golf and Bicycling. And when have Golf and Bicycling received unavoidable coverage? When a transcendent figure takes over the sport – Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong. That’s my point with the PAC 12 out west – it takes something like USC’s dynasty first receiving national attention before the local markets are willing to divert their attention from their format of 90% NFL/NBA coverage.
Conversely take Detroit’s WXYT (97.1) CBS Sports radio station: the local voice of the station, Mike Valenti, gives as much (probably more) commentary and call-in requests for Michigan and Michigan St commentary as he gives to the Lions, Piston, Tigers, & Wings, especially as those two college programs provide him entertaining material to spend time on – Bush kicking up the Spartans logo, Harbaugh’s setbacks vs OSU, Dantonio’s lack of offense, Beilein in the Final Four.
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@CatsbyAZ (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1532) I can't really argue with any of that. Well said.
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There are SEVEN PAC 12 schools without a single NFL combine invite - more than half the conference! Football is passing the West Coast by.
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Wow, that's bad. Illinois and Purdue are the only B1G school without invites.
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Pac 12 “in shambles,” so says 538:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-pac-12-is-in-shambles/
“As it currently stands, the conference would be lucky to receive two bids to the tournament, with the Huskies projected to be a No. 9 seed and Arizona State possibly squeaking in as a 12 seed. It’s been a quarter-century since a major conference produced a one-bid campaign.”
“If recent history serves, next month’s tournament will reinforce what many already know: The Pac-12, which hasn’t won a national title since Arizona cut down the nets in 1997, has fallen off considerably in terms of prestige.”
“The Pac-12 is also struggling in college football. Over the past two seasons, the conference is a combined 4-12 in bowl games, with three wins coming by a combined 4 points.”
“Oregon State has arguably been the worst Power Five football team for two consecutive years, and programs like Oregon, Stanford and USC, which traditionally have been competitive on a national level, have fallen off considerably. Washington’s good-but-not-good-enough seasonal cadence seems to have run its course, too.”
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Listening to Bill Walton last night during the Zona-Oregon game, the conference of Champions is solid and preparing to send many great teams to the tournament
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Larry Scott spends Vegas in a $7500/night ARIA suite
The ADs have been bellyaching for years about “limo Larry’s” expenses. The conference is lagging behind its Power Five Conference peers (https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/john_canzano/2018/11/pac-12-larry-scott-leftout-part1.html) when it comes to financial distributions to members. The men and women responsible for budgeting for athletics on their own campuses would like to examine the financials.
https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/2019/03/canzano-the-view-from-the-pac-12-conferences-imperial-palace-lacks-visibility.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/2019/03/canzano-the-view-from-the-pac-12-conferences-imperial-palace-lacks-visibility.html)
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Does their commish really make over twice as much as the next highest?
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Larry Scott spends Vegas in a $7500/night ARIA suite
The ADs have been bellyaching for years about “limo Larry’s” expenses. The conference is lagging behind its Power Five Conference peers (https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/oregonian/john_canzano/2018/11/pac-12-larry-scott-leftout-part1.html) when it comes to financial distributions to members. The men and women responsible for budgeting for athletics on their own campuses would like to examine the financials.
https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/2019/03/canzano-the-view-from-the-pac-12-conferences-imperial-palace-lacks-visibility.html (https://www.oregonlive.com/sports/2019/03/canzano-the-view-from-the-pac-12-conferences-imperial-palace-lacks-visibility.html)
I liked one of the comments to the article best:
Wouldn't it be ironic if Scott's luxury suite only came with DirecTV?
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no wonder Delaney is retiring
doesn't get equal compensation with a dope like Larry
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Worthwhile perspective on the State Of College Football in LA, from ESPN for anyone interested:
https://www.google.com/amp/www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/26237490/usc-ucla-state-college-football-los-angeles%3fplatform=amp (https://www.google.com/amp/www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/26237490/usc-ucla-state-college-football-los-angeles%3fplatform=amp)
As I’ve said in other threads, Chip Kelly’s taking the reigns at UCLA is going as poorly as possible.
And as for SC, in additions to the Medical school scandal and the underachieving football program, add the FBI blowing the lid off the national fraud scheme to enroll their kids in prime universities. I never thought of USC as elite enough to risk $50K in fraud and faked SAT scores to get your kid into. But evidently Lori Laughlin thought it was worth the risk if it widened her daughter’s options beyond Arizona State, writing as much in an email presented as evidence in the scheme: “We just met with our older daughter’s college counselor this AM. I’d like to maybe sit with you after your session with the girls as I have some concerns and want to fully understand the game plan and make sure we have a roadmap for success as it relates to our daughter and getting her into a school other than ASU!”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azcentral.com/amp/3141574002 (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.azcentral.com/amp/3141574002)
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Six Pac teams have already made ELA's rankings. That isn't a good showing, needless to say. What happened out there? Lack of interest? Money? Talent?
Is this just a down phase or is it something of a more lasting nature?
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Pac 12 “in shambles,” so says 538:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-pac-12-is-in-shambles/
“As it currently stands, the conference would be lucky to receive two bids to the tournament, with the Huskies projected to be a No. 9 seed and Arizona State possibly squeaking in as a 12 seed. It’s been a quarter-century since a major conference produced a one-bid campaign.”
“If recent history serves, next month’s tournament will reinforce what many already know: The Pac-12, which hasn’t won a national title since Arizona cut down the nets in 1997, has fallen off considerably in terms of prestige.”
“The Pac-12 is also struggling in college football. Over the past two seasons, the conference is a combined 4-12 in bowl games, with three wins coming by a combined 4 points.”
“Oregon State has arguably been the worst Power Five football team for two consecutive years, and programs like Oregon, Stanford and USC, which traditionally have been competitive on a national level, have fallen off considerably. Washington’s good-but-not-good-enough seasonal cadence seems to have run its course, too.”
I don't know how far "tradition" goes back, but that seems like a bit of an overstatement on Oregon. Oregon was not competitive on the national level until the 2000 season, unless you go back to the 1910s.
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We all appreciate how conferences go through phases, but is this one more of a terminal descent?
The SEC seemed down - to me - for a couple of years, but shows some signs of being back.
The ACC needs a second team of some note from somewhere. Miami? FSU? VT?
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We all appreciate how conferences go through phases, but is this one more of a terminal descent?
Maybe, but I think it's premature to call the time of death already.
California is still a big state of 40M people. It's a very fertile recruiting ground. USC and UCLA can both be considered sleeping giants (although UCLA is more of a basketball school, they do have history on the gridiron), and Stanford/Cal are probably sleeping ogres... Oregon and Washington have a lot of population as well and if they can lock down their own state recruiting-wise, can at least be pretty darn good.
It was just 10 years ago that USC, Stanford, Oregon, and UCLA were all pretty good. Problem is that coaching turnover put all of them into bad paths at the same time, and the only really elite coach the conference has today might just be the one who was at Boise State 10 years ago and at Washington now [hence why they're the top of the conference right now].
I just don't see how this is some terminal decline unless it's a matter of the popularity of football waning and left-coasters being on the leading edge of that wane. If so, that affects all of us as fans. But if not, I'd say it's just a matter of time before the right coaches land at a few of these schools and they return to prominence.
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I agree with your analysis, not that it matters. I'd like to see the Pac have 2-3 teams of note each year, at least. It's good for the sport.
Colorado is still around are they not?
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I agree with your analysis, not that it matters. I'd like to see the Pac have 2-3 teams of note each year, at least. It's good for the sport.
Colorado is still around are they not?
Yes, but Colorado football has been unremarkable for a while. I left them, Utah, and the AZ schools out if it, just as I left out OrSU and Wazzu.
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Off-topic, but what’s with Washington and quarterbacks named Jacob or Jake? Jacob Fromm is transferring in, plus they have 3 more QBs named Jake or Jacob already. Not to mention they recently had Jake Locker and Jake Browning.
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Jacob Eason, not Jake Fromm ... State Farm.
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Latest round of Michael Avennati's attention-whoring involves tweeting Pac 12 dirt:
"Ask DeAndre Ayton and Nike about the cash payments to his mother and others. Nike’s attempt at diversion and cover-up will fail miserably once prosecutors realize they have been played by Nike and their lawyers at Boies. This reaches the highest levels of Nike."
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"Bol Bol and his handlers also received large sums from Nike. The receipts are clear as day. A lot of people at Nike will have to account for their criminal conduct, starting with Carlton DeBose & moving higher up. The diversion charade they orchestrated against me will be exposed"
Ayton and Bol Bol signed with Arizona and Oregon respectively, for a fee.
Granted Washington and Oregon can look back on strong seasons, but it's pretty sad that Pac 12 Basketball is as unremarkable as it is even after buying the best prospects.
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Ayton and Bol Bol signed with Arizona and Oregon respectively, for a fee.
Granted Washington and Oregon can look back on strong seasons, but it's pretty sad that Pac 12 Basketball is as unremarkable as it is even after buying the best prospects.
Francis Okoro, a forward/center who is a freshman at Oregon, is from Normal, IL. He reportedly valued education very highly during his recruitment, and was planning to study computer science. He was considered highly in play for both the Illini and the Boilermakers [two schools with very highly respected CS programs, Illini ranked #5 and Purdue #20 according to US News]. Both schools were recruiting him HARD.
Then he ended up at Oregon, ranked #64 in CS, and ranked well below Illinois and Purdue in the national university rankings. And he walked into a situation where there was a log-jam of players at the 4 and 5.
Seems he might have valued something a little more than education...
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Little late to post, but with college basketball clearly in the rear view mirror, the tournament went better than expected for the PAC 12, with three teams qualifying and all winning a game - Washington, Oregon, and Arizona St.
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speaking of culture:
https://www.huskermax.com/watch-sites/arizona/ (https://www.huskermax.com/watch-sites/arizona/)
Husker watch sites in Arizona.
http://fightonline.usc.edu/s/657/alumni/16/interior.aspx?sid=657&gid=5&pgid=2257&crid=0&calpgid=1590&calcid=3091 (http://fightonline.usc.edu/s/657/alumni/16/interior.aspx?sid=657&gid=5&pgid=2257&crid=0&calpgid=1590&calcid=3091)
USC watch site for SPECIFIC GAMES in arizona
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Long article but descriptive history on How USC Became The Most Scandal Plagued Campus in America - from Los Angeles Magazine: https://www.lamag.com/citythinkblog/usc-scandals-cover/
A brief timeline:
Sept 2014: Fund manager Steve Cohen buys his daughter’s admission for $5 Million
Oct 2015: Steve Sarkisian fired for public intoxication at football team events and pep rally’s
Mar 2016: The Medical School Dean resigns after investigation reveals his hosting of Meth and Ecstasy fueled parties for associates, one of whom ODed in his presence
Jun 2016: AD Pat Haden steps down after investigation reveals his pocketing of $2.4 Million in charitable donations from foundation for underserved youth
Jun 2017: Campus building named after OJ Simpson’s getaway driver
Oct 2017: Vice President Carrera forced to step down amid multiple claims of sexually harassing female colleagues
Oct 2017: Replacement Medical School dean is ousted after surfacing of sexual harassment case from 2003
May 2018: USC gynecologist George Tyndall resigns with hefty payout amidst investigations into three decades of sexually abusing patients; Settlements are expected to cost USC upwards of $500 Million
Feb 2019: And, of course, we all know about USC finding itself at the center of the FBI’s national admissions bribery investigation
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Wow! What a stellar combination of criminality and stupidity. Over and over again.
"Jun 2017: Campus building named after OJ Simpson’s getaway driver" How stupid does it get?
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The best fans are probably the ones in Oregon (both schools) and Utah, from what I've seen (former) and noticed on TV (latter). Washington does pretty well because it has a large alumni base, but Seattle always has a Seahawks buzz. The bay area is 49'ers (and the lame duck team to the East). LA is now the Rams. Phoenix is made up almost entirely of people not from Phoenix. I'm not sure what Colorado cares about besides the Broncos.
Maybe USC needs to move to San Diego.
:s_laugh:
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Two quotes from a 'California culture vs. Football' thread on a Bama board.
"I had to work in Anaheim for about two months. I've heard it said about California's lack of interest in watching and enthusiasm for college football is about the weather, beaches, and mountains. People have other things they want to do. That probably is true, but I have another takeaway from being there.
California has a very diverse international mix of people. A big percentage have grown up never watching football. For instance, on vacation in Yosemite I wore several of my Alabama championship tee shirts. You wouldn't believe how many people didn't understand. I had one lady ask me "What did you win a championship in?" After explaining, without taking offense, that is was college football, she asked me if I still had a good back. Btw, I'm 59, Lol. I had another guy tell me story about the the Braves when they were the Milwaukee Braves after seeing my shirt. I didn't have the heart to correct him."
...
"After living in a very rural part of the state for over three years I can say that the interest just isn't there like it is in the south. I can say the same about Illinois. Pro sports get some attention.
There are a few college fans here. By and large, though, they just don't care. Thank God for the butcher even though he's a Ducks fan. Since I dropped Frontier internet I don't see the USC fan so much."
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Wow! What a stellar combination of criminality and stupidity. Over and over again.
Forgot to also mention the USC basketball program’s implication in the nationwide basketball recruiting scandal.
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https://twitter.com/InsideTheTeam_/status/1139248322521305088
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Holy wow. That's gonna leave a mark.
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a wildcat or sun-devil probably hacked an account
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"The Winningest Conference in the Country"
https://twitter.com/InsideUSC/status/1143233422845833216
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wasn't from Bill Walton, he would have mentioned basketball
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USC Football scheduled their first ever FCS opponent - UC-Davis for the 2021 season. AD Lynn Swann released the news this past Friday, hoping, I guess, nobody would notice. Notre Dame and UCLA are the last two FBS programs to have never played an FCS program. Trojan fans are bemoaning this as USC Football losing yet another distinction. What’s next - putting players names on the backs of Trojan jerseys? Meanwhile the SEC averages just under one FCS opponent per program per season going back about 15 seasons.
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It does help the FCS program with funding of course, and in reality, playing an FCS team or bad FBS team is not really different from a half decent team.
Back when it was Div. IIA, was there a Div. IIB?
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Yes, not knocking on SEC scheduling at all - they are doing just fine. Having attended Auburn home games with their season ticket holders, another good thing about the FCS home games is that so many tickets are given away by the regulars to a lot of recipients that otherwise would never get to go to an Auburn game, mostly to the youngins - high school football teams, after school development programs, scout troops, church youth groups, JR ROTCs.
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I think some SEC scheduling merits being knocked.
But, anyone who plays at least 10 FBS teams a year is OK with me.
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https://twitter.com/InsideTheTeam_/status/1139248322521305088
Yeah UCLA is a mess. Their recruiting branding has been called impossibly bad, too. They have this one day, on June 8th, when they offer recruits. It's called 8Clap8th (https://247sports.com/LongFormArticle/UCLA-Football-UCLAs-June-8Clap8th-Offer-Candidates-132647387/). It's such a bad name that just thinking about it threatens to break my brain.
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Going back I always liked the Bruins
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“Top Recruits are flocking to the Northwest...
https://twitter.com/WestCoastCFB/status/1150809284327817220
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Going back I always liked the Bruins
Same here. I always rooted for them to beat the Trojans.
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“Top Recruits are flocking to the Northwest...
https://twitter.com/WestCoastCFB/status/1150809284327817220
Must be global warming making LA uninhabitable...
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Pac12 considering a few 9am local kickoffs this season. Ouch. I love my late night Pac12 menu.
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Must be global warming making LA uninhabitable...
It's not the warming.
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Pac12 considering a few 9am local kickoffs this season. Ouch. I love my late night Pac12 menu.
Eh, 1 a week I don't think would be a terrible thing. Sometimes I like late night Pac 12, sometimes I'm exhausted by a full day of football, and want to watch/do something else. When you've got 4 every week, you can't be getting a ton of east coast eye balls.
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So east coast fan will now watch Arizona at Utah at noon, instead of Maryland at Purdue? Or Syracuse vs NC St. Meanwhile Pac 12 fan is ...happy about this?
I suppose they are conditioned to watch NFL and other leagues at 9am as it is.
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I think if they were going to move all of their games it would be stupid. But playing 4 in primetime, sometimes as many at 10 or later, makes as little sense as the Big Ten playing all of their games at noon. I hate MSU-WMU, or whatever, being "prime time" but I'm surprised it took so long for conferences to start spreading their games out more. Off the top of my head, it does feel like the ACC and SEC were ahead of the curve on that one.
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So east coast fan will now watch Arizona at Utah at noon, instead of Maryland at Purdue? Or Syracuse vs NC St. Meanwhile Pac 12 fan is ...happy about this?
I suppose they are conditioned to watch NFL and other leagues at 9am as it is.
NFL is never before 10 AM.
But yeah, college football fans out here are conditioned to the 9 AM start times. I still don't think it's a good idea to actually have local games that start at 9 AM though. I think that will cause a lot of issues with filling the stadium, and potentially quiet the environment as there won't exactly be time to tailgate.
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NFL is never before 10 AM.
But yeah, college football fans out here are conditioned to the 9 AM start times. I still don't think it's a good idea to actually have local games that start at 9 AM though. I think that will cause a lot of issues with filling the stadium, and potentially quiet the environment as there won't exactly be time to tailgate.
Do Pac 12 fans outside of the northwest go to games?
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Do Pac 12 fans outside of the northwest go to games?
Most? No.
But the Los Angeles and Inland Empire metro areas have a combined 16M residents. That's plenty to actually put butts in seats even if a low percentage of fans actually attend.
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Most? No.
But the Los Angeles and Inland Empire metro areas have a combined 16M residents. That's plenty to actually put butts in seats even if a low percentage of fans actually attend.
Yeah but it's also a big number of tv viewers. If it gets more eyeballs nationwide, I doubt they care about the atmosphere at schools that traditionally struggle with attendance.
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If I tune into a game with 10 K fans and quiet applause, I get the notion it must not be very important.
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Most? No.
But the Los Angeles and Inland Empire metro areas have a combined 16M residents. That's plenty to actually put butts in seats even if a low percentage of fans actually attend.
A number of UCLA and SC alums I know won’t attend the games anymore because “it’s a nightmare.” The city traffic, fighting for parking, expensive parking, increasing ticket prices, and easier experience of watching on TV are the different excuses I’ve heard. Of course these are excuses I’ve heard from all fanbases but I think traffic/parking is a particularly severe battle for the LA schools.
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A number of UCLA and SC alums I know won’t attend the games anymore because “it’s a nightmare.” The city traffic, fighting for parking, expensive parking, increasing ticket prices, and easier experience of watching on TV are the different excuses I’ve heard. Of course these are excuses I’ve heard from all fanbases but I think traffic/parking is a particularly severe battle for the LA schools.
I hate going to LA for anything, at any time. So I get it.
We went to a Dodger game last Saturday, and leaving from our friends' house in Long Beach it took us well over an hour to go about 23 miles. Not rush hour, not even a weekday, and it was hell.
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perhaps self driving cars can save the city
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Pirate ain't getting up early
https://twitter.com/Coach_Leach/status/1155226480202280960?s=19
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PAC after dark will get a bigger audience.What are these idgits thinking?
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So who has good attendance? UDub, Oregon, and the MTZ teams, minus Arizona?
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2018 Average Home Attendance:
- Washington - 69,816
- UCLA - 57,492
- USC - 55,565
- ASU - 51,745
- Oregon - 51,456
- Utah - 46,716
- Arizona - 45,356
- Colorado - 44,587
- Cal - 40,907
- Stanford - 38,514
- OSU - 34,735
- WSU - 29,727
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https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/uw-husky-football/how-the-pac-12s-attendance-and-tv-ratings-compared-with-other-conference-title-games/ (https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/uw-husky-football/how-the-pac-12s-attendance-and-tv-ratings-compared-with-other-conference-title-games/)
Pac-12 (Washington vs. Utah)
Time: 5 p.m./FOX (Friday)
Levi’s Stadium capacity: 67.500
Announced crowd: 35,134
Percentage filled: 52
TV rating: 3.1
Note: Up 15 percent from last year (Stanford vs. USC/ESPN) but down 21 percent from 2016 (UW vs. Colorado/FOX).
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Week 14 College Football TV Ratings
| RTG | VWRS
(+ STREAM) | GAME | CONF | DATE/TIME | NET |
| 10.1 | 17.499M | ALA-UGA | SEC Champ. | 12/1, 4:00p | CBS |
| 6.2 | 10.155M
(10.299M) | OKLA-Texas | B12 Champ. | 12/1, Noon | ABC |
| 5.0 | 8.659M | OSU-NWSTN | B1G Champ. | 12/1, 8:15p | FOX |
| 2.5 | 4.236M | CLEM-Pitt | ACC Champ. | 12/1, 8:00p | ABC |
| 2.6 | 4.059M | WASH-Utah | P12 Champ. | 11/30, 8:20p | FOX |
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San Jose St once played a 7:00 AM (Pacific) game, back in their WAC days.
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I don't like starting a CFB game at 9 AM local at all. Ratings wise, it runs right into any number of eastern conference games which will likely be of more interest BACK EAST.
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I know an OU fan who is much better-informed than I am who thinks that the Pac-12 is going to kick out Colorado and Utah, then merge with Texas, Texas Tech, OU, fOSU, KU, and K-State.
He says that the 9:00 start time is a sign that the Pac-12 is failing and knows that it is failing.
I don't buy it, but maybe someone else here does.
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Kinda hard to keep that under wraps with at least 8 programs involved and instant media at our finger tips :106:
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A fan can be much better informed about stuff in general and still not know about some major conference shake up and just be guessing.
I agree it would be tough to keep such a thing under wraps.
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I don't like starting a CFB game at 9 AM local at all. Ratings wise, it runs right into any number of eastern conference games which will likely be of more interest BACK EAST.
Eh, if FOX is serious about moving big games back to noon, then yes. If not, I'd rather watch a decent Pac 12 game than Wisconsin-Illinois at noon, as the east coast has abandoned playing solid games at noon.
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I know an OU fan who is much better-informed than I am who thinks that the Pac-12 is going to kick out Colorado and Utah, then merge with Texas, Texas Tech, OU, fOSU, KU, and K-State.
He says that the 9:00 start time is a sign that the Pac-12 is failing and knows that it is failing.
I don't buy it, but maybe someone else here does.
I mean if bad results and terrible ratings is your idea of failing, then sure.
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I found some pretty interesting noon games last year aside from when my team was -playing.
I might watch say Florida-Vandy on SEC-N and get a clue (probably not) about how good they are, and watch Vandy get a 3 TD lead and squander it somehow.
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San Jose St once played a 7:00 AM (Pacific) game, back in their WAC days.
Was it @ Hawaii?
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Was it @ Hawaii?
No it was a home game against Boise State. This was like 2003ish, before every game was available to everyone, and espn2 aired it nationally, which was a big deal back then. I remember them showing live shots during Gameday of students wearing pajamas to the game.