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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: SFBadger96 on January 22, 2019, 07:53:54 PM

Title: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 22, 2019, 07:53:54 PM: What do you guys think? The titular heads of the steroid class have made big gains. Think they end up getting in before their time runs out? I think they all have several years remaining. And Schilling's political missteps seem to have had less impact this year.

Mariano Rivera 100%
Roy Halladay 85.4%
Edgar Martinez 85.4%
Mike Mussina 76.7%
----Cut Line---
Curt Schilling 60.9%
Roger Clemens 59.5%
Barry Bonds 59.1%
Larry Walker 54.6%
Omar Vizquel 42.8%
Fred McGriff 39.8%
Manny Ramirez 22.8%
Jeff Kent 18.1%
Billy Wagner 16.7%
Todd Helton 16.5%
Scott Rolen 17.2%
Gary Sheffield 13.6%
Andy Pettitte 9.9%
Sammy Sosa 8.5%
Andruw Jones 7.5%
Michael Young 2.1%
Lance Berkman 1.2%
Miguel Tejada 1.2%
Roy Oswalt 0.9%
Placido Polanco 0.5%
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: FearlessF on January 22, 2019, 08:07:53 PM: I wouldn't vote for the roid boys
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 22, 2019, 08:19:57 PM: Quote from: SFBadger96 on January 22, 2019, 07:53:54 PM
What do you guys think? The titular heads of the steroid class have made big gains. Think they end up getting in before their time runs out? I think they all have several years remaining. And Schilling's political missteps seem to have had less impact this year.

Mariano Rivera 100%
Roy Halladay 85.4%
Edgar Martinez 85.4%
Mike Mussina 76.7%
----Cut Line---
Curt Schilling 60.9%
Roger Clemens 59.5%
Barry Bonds 59.1%
Larry Walker 54.6%
Omar Vizquel 42.8%
Fred McGriff 39.8%
Manny Ramirez 22.8%
Jeff Kent 18.1%
Billy Wagner 16.7%
Todd Helton 16.5%
Scott Rolen 17.2%
Gary Sheffield 13.6%
Andy Pettitte 9.9%
Sammy Sosa 8.5%
Andruw Jones 7.5%
Michael Young 2.1%
Lance Berkman 1.2%
Miguel Tejada 1.2%
Roy Oswalt 0.9%
Placido Polanco 0.5%
Hmmm. "Corky" Sosa ain't going anywhere. Is Mariano the first 100 percent guy, ever??

(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cubssuckclub.com%2Fwp-content%2Fgrand-media%2Fimage%2Fcubs-cork-logo.jpg&hash=df5b5b787a52ad0ae3ce15a15648ad44)
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 22, 2019, 08:40:01 PM: Each of Schilling, Clemens, and Bonds has until 2022, I think. And they've all had pretty big jumps just in the last couple of years. It's interesting that Schilling isn't quite as tarred with PEDs as Clemens and Bonds, though the evidence against Schilling is every bit as good. Anyway, they're all effectively sitting at the same place with three years to go. I bet all three get voted in, by a hair, in 2022. And I bet there's a lot of teeth gnashing over it.

I understand why they shouldn't get in, but as a Giants fan, it's easy for me to believe that just about everyone of that era was guilty, but only some were caught/labeled. I think they deserve to be in; and I think there should be something prominent about the steroid era.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: FearlessF on January 22, 2019, 09:03:48 PM: I bet all three get in.

I don't agree with it, but I understand it
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 22, 2019, 10:17:12 PM: Yes, Mariano is the first ever to get 100% of the vote. The previous closest was Griffey Jr, at 99.3%. Three people left him off their ballots.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 22, 2019, 10:19:24 PM: Bonds and Clemens are suffering from happening to be the best players to take PEDs. PED users are, most assuredly, already in the HOF. But they're the ones with the targets on their backs, and it's all BS.

In a time when cops didn't pull you over for speeding and it wasn't against the law to speed, Bonds and Clemens are paying for a speeding ticket right now.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 22, 2019, 10:53:10 PM: Steroids should be mandatory in the American League.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: MarqHusker on January 22, 2019, 11:14:27 PM: I'm kind of glad the anti-100% thing is over, there are a handful of inner circle HOFers that weren't even 1st ballot, let alone 100%. This also cleared up the logjam a bit. So the first guy to get 100% blew a Game 7 of the WS. That's a rather amusing twist, and trivial footnote.

The fist pumper will get in next year on ballot #1, I would also vote for Bonds, Clemens and Schilling (probably Walker and Vizquel too). I hope Ted Simmons and Whitaker (and Marvin Miller) get a good shake, now that the Vets made the puzzling decision to put Baines in.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: fezzador on January 23, 2019, 08:05:58 AM: Poor Omar Vizquel got no respect on the Simpsons:

(https://static.simpsonswiki.com/images/1/14/Omar_Vizquel.png)
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 23, 2019, 12:31:27 PM: Frankly, I'm surprised Sosa gets as many votes as he does. While Bonds and Clemens may have led the roid class, Sosa is a microcosm of it. He was a below average outfielder who had a big bat (that was fueled by the juice), had a rather pedestrian career batting average, is 4th all time in strike outs, and whose gaudy numbers correspond perfectly with the height of the steroid madness.

Clemens and Bonds were cheats, but they were among the best in the game before, during, and after. Sosa had a few years of stolen glory.

He was likable and the majority of his career was in a major market. Mostly, he's the poster child--sharing space with Mark McGuire--for the steroid era.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 23, 2019, 12:46:33 PM: To me there is a pretty big difference between getting caught by mlb and "you can just tell that he was roiding?"
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: FearlessF on January 23, 2019, 08:58:28 PM: big difference
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: GopherRock on January 23, 2019, 10:28:04 PM: Neither McGuire nor Clemens got caught with a corked bat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrXVdwIGfuI
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: FearlessF on January 23, 2019, 10:40:17 PM: pine tar, spit balls, sand paper, corked bats.......... all in good clean fun

just keeping the umps on their toes
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 23, 2019, 10:45:43 PM: Who is the worst player to ever find their way into the HoF?
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: FearlessF on January 23, 2019, 10:52:56 PM: worst at what?

cheating?
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 23, 2019, 10:59:12 PM: Worst at playing baseball.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: fezzador on January 23, 2019, 11:10:10 PM: Gotta say Ray Schalk. Tremendous defense, almost literally no offense. Even Ozzie Smith had his redeeming qualities outside of his glove.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: MarqHusker on January 24, 2019, 12:57:53 AM: Paul Waner, High Pockets Kelly, tinkers and evers.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 24, 2019, 01:01:08 AM: Whether it was cheating or not, Sosa & McGwire did revive baseball in 1998 and some people still give them that credit. Sosa hit the most HRs in any 10-year stretch in history - 479. More than Ruth or Bonds or anyone else. Yes, it was during the highest HR era ever and yes it was through murky means, but it still happened. No, just hitting HRs does not a great player make, but it is the best thing a batter can do in any given at-bat, in any situation.

If Sosa had played in the 80s or earlier, his slash line numbers would be great. But because of his run-scoring environment, his 128 career OPS+ is pretty pedestrian. Yet he had over 400 total bases in a season TWICE, which is nuts. The only time that's been done outside Coors Field guys in the last 40 years was Bonds and Luis Gonzalez's big year in Arizona.
Gonzalez is the big all-time DBacks "guy" here in Arizona, but look at a picture of him in 1993 vs 2001 and tell me he wasn't injecting horse tranquilizers into his aortas......but Bonds and Clemens are the only ones good enough to have to "pay" for their transgressions.

Alex Rodriguez comes up for the HOF in 3 years, in Bonds' and Clemens' final years. Won't that be interesting.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 24, 2019, 01:01:31 AM: Quote from: MarqHusker on January 24, 2019, 12:57:53 AM
Paul Waner, High Pockets Kelly, tinkers and evers.
...but High Pockets Kelly has a HOF nickname, so you make allowances...
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2019, 07:24:54 AM: (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DVxtOyqVoAAKQsD.jpg)
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: fezzador on January 24, 2019, 08:19:48 AM: So Swinging Sammy has become a pink Michael Jackson. Strange.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2019, 08:55:00 AM: (https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimages.performgroup.com%2Fdi%2Flibrary%2Fsporting_news%2F59%2Fd6%2Fsammy-sosa-ftrjpg_9cb0vslhkiln10s7xblabl58z.jpg%3Ft%3D-2045177559%26amp%3Bw%3D960%26amp%3Bquality%3D70&hash=0fbc717187e01485f3eb3db92d60e39e)
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 24, 2019, 09:13:31 AM: Perfect look for one of the most selfish players the game ever saw.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on January 24, 2019, 10:44:45 AM: For me, it should be based on what they accomplished on the field, regardless of how they got there and what they did to improve their performance, etc. (I realize that my view is a minority one).

Sure, the stats from the steroids era are wonky, but so are stats from the dead ball era, etc. There's never been a reasonable way to compare stats from different eras, anyway.

If you open cans of worms like "he has weird politics" "he took steroids" and "he gambled," what about cans of worms like "training is more advanced nowadays," "he threw spitballs," and "he didn't have to pitch to black players" or simply "he was an asshole" ?
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: fezzador on January 24, 2019, 11:40:34 AM: If being a "nice guy" was a prerequisite for being in the Hall of Fame, it would look more like a Coffee Table of Fame.

Then again, I also think a lot of players from the bygone era get a bit of a bad rap. Ty Cobb probably carries the stigma of being a jerk more than any other professional athlete, ever, but a lot of those stories about him were either exaggerated or not true at all. Sure, some of his reputation was well-earned, but he wasn't even close to being the biggest a-hole in baseball in the pre-color barrier days. His playing style led other players to believe that he was being excessively aggressive (in his own words, he played that much harder to honor his late father, who never got to see him play professionally). He did maintain several friendships with other players (and even was sort of a mentor to the generation of players that followed him) and had a surprisingly progressive stance regarding black ballplayers (he had positive things to say about Jackie Robinson, and said that Willie Mays was one of a very select few players he'd pay money to watch in person). Was he intimidating? Sure. A bit of a jerk? Probably. But he was not dishonest, he played the game tough and he played within the rules. He'd probably be irate with the current state of sports.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2019, 11:55:59 AM: The Curt Schilling politic drama is indeed odd. There are people in the HoF that refused to play with black players, but Schilling's refusal to just blindly go along with the thought police is a deal breaker?
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: MarqHusker on January 24, 2019, 12:44:43 PM: Writers are often petty and vindictive and are largely of one ideology . It was an eye opening experience for me working in sports media.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 24, 2019, 01:11:57 PM: Pete Rose was a major jerk too.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 24, 2019, 01:20:03 PM: Frankly, I'm always a little surprised when elite athletes are at least kind of jerks. These are people who have a single-minded focus on being better than their peers. That drives them. Is it any surprise that they aren't all warm teddy bears?
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: FearlessF on January 24, 2019, 02:39:45 PM: Quote from: 847badgerfan on January 24, 2019, 01:11:57 PM
Pete Rose was a major jerk too.
and very possibly threw games to make a few bucks
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: fezzador on January 24, 2019, 03:25:59 PM: Quote from: 847badgerfan on January 24, 2019, 01:11:57 PM
Pete Rose was a major jerk too.
He was no mere jerk; he was a lying, conceited jerk. It took him decades to fess up about his gambling habits, but he has not showed an ounce of remorse for his actions. When his professional hit record was threatened (and eventually overtaken) by Ichiro, he did not take that well at all. If it was say, Cal Ripken's consecutive game streak that Ichiro broke instead, the Iron Man himself would have been first in line to congratulate him.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 24, 2019, 04:47:52 PM: This ethical standard stuff in sports is dumb. It seems to be baggage from the good aspect of these guys being heroes and such, but it's unfounded and frankly, odd.
These are regular guys like you and me. They have regular faults and regular decisions. Some % of them are asses and some % of them are saints. Most are in the middle 2/3 and perfectly normal/boring/average/regular.

Honestly, my biggest beef isn't even the Bonds and Clemens numbers, but with Manny Ramirez's. I don't think a guy who cheated and served the suspension penalties should be unofficially banned from HOF consideration when he's probably the best right-handed hitter between Frank Thomas and Albert Pujols, chronologically.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: FearlessF on January 24, 2019, 04:55:56 PM: well, it's a club that is voted on by humans. Therefore, the folks voting can decide if you get in or not. It's subjective.

If you don't like that, just draw a line in the statistics and let the computers form a club
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2019, 05:01:11 PM: That easy, eh?

Well then let's do the stats thing
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: FearlessF on January 24, 2019, 05:09:47 PM: Pete "the Cheat" Rose is IN!
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2019, 05:29:18 PM: Ooooo, those sports writers are gonna be sooooo mad!
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 24, 2019, 07:45:41 PM: I'm just tired of BS parameters that are set up and then completely ignored. Like the Heisman's "most outstanding player", if a baseball player is suspended because of PEDs, then make the penalty 80 games and no longer eligible for the HOF. Instead, we get 10 years of blah-blah for every guy it pertains to.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: FearlessF on January 24, 2019, 08:00:39 PM: are you getting old and grumpy?
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 25, 2019, 10:53:29 PM: I think it's more an issue of going along with disingenuous, unspoken "rules" or norms.
The idea of unwritten rules or the consideration of that which doesn't truly matter, things like that. The wink-and-a-nod, "hush-hush" culture that exists in many corners, including sportswriters and most any 'stewards of the flame'.

Enough with their BS and just be real. Don't change how you award the Heisman or how voters vote, just change the lie of the description of who the award goes to. Don't change how HOF voters vote, just include that those with PED suspensions aren't eligible....because the reality is they're not getting voted in.

I don't understand this aversion to recognizing what is.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 25, 2019, 11:23:10 PM: Someone should write down all of baseball's "unwritten" rules.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: FearlessF on January 26, 2019, 10:00:05 AM: this is a good place for that list

you start
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 30, 2019, 10:28:59 PM: 1. Don't have fun playing baseball anywhere in the vicinity of Brian McCann.
Title: Re: OT: 2019 Baseball HOF Class
Post by: MarqHusker on January 30, 2019, 10:50:46 PM: He is such a heel. Insufferable. Hated turds like that in my playing days. He thinks everybody is out there soiling the game.