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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: CatsbyAZ on September 21, 2017, 09:33:59 AM

Title: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: CatsbyAZ on September 21, 2017, 09:33:59 AM
Anyone in the mood to discuss Offensive Lines? Specifically how bad the Sunday pros are?

Along with the NFL's attendance problem, the offensive lines are receiving as much negative attention.

It was interesting to watch how aggressive NFL GMs went after the small crop of OL free agents this past offseason. They'd rather bring aboard proven, coached-up lineman than risk 1st or 2nd round draft capital on franchise tackles. Gone are the days that a first round pick could guarantee a 5 or 10 season anchor at the LT position. This past draft had only two OL drafted and the first off the board went as late as 20th (to the Broncos.) GMs and coaches are complaining that the latest collective bargaining agreement cuts into the time needed to coach up their OLs which traditionally require the most intensive development. In turn, it's DLs, requiring less coaching, that are running OLs off the field. It certainly doesn't help, as has been widely pointed out, that the spread and quick-snap offenses of so many college programs offer no preparation for the NFL's behind-center Pro style.

It is an irony that in an offense-minded league driven by fantasy stats and talent searches for the next superstar QB it's the defenses now dictating much of the on-field product.

<br />(https://thumb.ibb.co/j3wR8k/OL.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j3wR8k)<br />
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: ELA on September 21, 2017, 09:37:02 AM
A big part of the problem is the lack of padded practices.

These guys have no idea how to run block, and their cohesiveness in pass blocking is lacking now too.

That has been the biggest detriment to the game with those rule changes, but I guess if we are going to 7 on 7 anyway, who cares.

I think as the units work together, and these games are the limited de facto practice time they get, you'll see improvement.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: Entropy on September 21, 2017, 10:16:19 AM
The NFL has decided years ago they want more passing and more "excitement".
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: MaximumSam on September 21, 2017, 10:50:48 AM
With the rules favoring passing, road grading offensive linemen aren't as effective, and instead they get guys who mostly just try to get in the way of uber-athletic pass rushers.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 21, 2017, 11:00:57 AM
I stopped watching the NFL the day that the Browns named Johnny Football the starter. 

I haven't looked back. No regrets. 
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: Mdot21 on September 21, 2017, 12:50:29 PM
think it has a lot to do with spread offenses in college and with high school teams not preparing it's linemen for college. A lot of high schools run option or spread option and rarely ever pass the ball.

OL recruiting for college and drafting OL in the NFL is the biggest crap-shoot it's ever been. It's almost a complete crap-shoot really. That's why I really don't pay much attention to OL recruiting or fret too much about it. It doesn't matter. The OL coaching and player development and S&C program matter far more.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: MarqHusker on September 21, 2017, 01:09:54 PM
Quote from: Mdot21 on September 21, 2017, 12:50:29 PM
think it has a lot to do with spread offenses in college and with high school teams not preparing it's linemen for college. A lot of high schools run option or spread option and rarely ever pass the ball.

OL recruiting for college and drafting OL in the NFL is the biggest crap-shoot it's ever been. It's almost a complete crap-shoot really. That's why I really don't pay much attention to OL recruiting or fret too much about it. It doesn't matter. The OL coaching and player development and S&C program matter far more.
I'm not sure where you're watching/following HS football,   I've observed that passing has proliferated like wild fire in the twenty ish years since I played HS football.   Perhaps I see it more, since I've moved closer to the south.  I rarely see the power I anymore and almost never see the Wing-T.   That was easily 75%+ of the offensive sets when I was in HS in the mid 90s in the state of WI.
I fully support your other points.   Scouts routinely discount run blocking when rating players (because nobody runs in the pros) and thus, the run blocking stinks on Sunday.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on September 21, 2017, 02:37:03 PM
I've been shocked by how defenses have been so predominant in the early weeks of this NFL season. For a league which wants passing touchdowns and excitement, it seems like they're getting sacks and interceptions instead. Well, I guess if you call pick-sixes passing touchdowns, it counts, right?
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: ELA on September 21, 2017, 02:43:55 PM
Quote from: bwarbiany on September 21, 2017, 02:37:03 PM
I've been shocked by how defenses have been so predominant in the early weeks of this NFL season. For a league which wants passing touchdowns and excitement, it seems like they're getting sacks and interceptions instead. Well, I guess if you call pick-sixes passing touchdowns, it counts, right?

I think it's been more bad offense than good defense.

I think each new offensive innovation has a wave.  You get a few guys doing it, and it's sparse but successful.  Leads to more people doing it, and frequently at a low execution level, but it still works because defenses haven't caught up.  Once defenses do, you have this.  I think you've seen some very vanilla offense in the NFL, due to lack of practice, and player movement, and the fact that running a lot of this HUNH with west coast principles was working.  Brady and Manning are not doing anything mind blowing.  Just a bunch of quick slant, and heavy uses of rubs and pick plays.  Led to a lot of the league doing the same thing.  But defenses always start to figure it out.  That's where we are now.  A lot of vanilla offense against defenses that have seen it enough that you can't get away with running it at a low level.

Just look at how yards per completion keeps dropping.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 21, 2017, 03:12:04 PM
Quote from: Mdot21 on September 21, 2017, 12:50:29 PM
OL recruiting for college and drafting OL in the NFL is the biggest crap-shoot it's ever been. It's almost a complete crap-shoot really. That's why I really don't pay much attention to OL recruiting or fret too much about it. It doesn't matter. The OL coaching and player development and S&C program matter far more.
You could be a spokesman for UW.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: Mdot21 on September 21, 2017, 03:19:34 PM
Quote from: 847badgerfan on September 21, 2017, 03:12:04 PM
You could be a spokesman for UW.
UW is a great example of it. They just keep churnin' 'em out. Not like they are signing 5* OL's every class either.
Michigan went through a stretch with Hoke when they were signing SO many 5* and 4* OL's and virtually none of them panned out. LTT got kicked off the team, Bosch went mental and transferred, David Dawson couldn't crack the two-deep, Kalis looked like a 5* but played like a 3* - the best OL they had was Glasgow- a walk-on.
I think things will start to change for the Michigan OL going forward- but it won't be because of any STARZ they sign. It'll be because they have a head coach in Harbaugh who develops players- and they basically two OL coaches- both of whom have good reps for developing OL's in Drevno and Frey.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: Temp430 on September 21, 2017, 03:24:33 PM
Two years ago Penn State's OL was abysmal.  Now Coach Franklin claims they're the best in the Big Ten and he may be right.  Same kids I think.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: Geolion91 on September 21, 2017, 04:22:40 PM
Quote from: Temp430 on September 21, 2017, 03:24:33 PM
Two years ago Penn State's OL was abysmal.  Now Coach Franklin claims they're the best in the Big Ten and he may be right.  Same kids I think.
There has been some addition by subtraction, noteably the Predator, Paris Palmer
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/036459f54a302fcc86169915d1606de6a2c8aab7/c=16-0-1265-939&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2016/11/09/YorkDispatch/YorkDispatch/636143121134953111-12-ot-paris-palmer-pg-600.jpg)
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 21, 2017, 04:46:52 PM
The guy that was a human turnstile against Temple's two man rush? 


(https://cdn2.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/Ur-S7-MslN0iZfPhvtx4wRVp0Ss=/cdn0.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/6268613/temple.0.0.gif)
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: PSUinNC on September 21, 2017, 04:50:49 PM
Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on September 21, 2017, 11:00:57 AM
I stopped watching the NFL the day that the Browns named Johnny Football the starter.

I haven't looked back. No regrets.
I couldn't tell you the last time I watched a non-Steelers NFL game in its entirety, including the Super Bowl.  I probably watch one full Steelers game, playoffs included, per year.  
The NFL is not entertaining in the least bit to me.  
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: Honestbuckeye on September 21, 2017, 09:02:01 PM
Quote from: PSUinNC on September 21, 2017, 04:50:49 PM
I couldn't tell you the last time I watched a non-Steelers NFL game in its entirety, including the Super Bowl.  I probably watch one full Steelers game, playoffs included, per year.  
The NFL is not entertaining in the least bit to me.  
Agreed. I could not love football more than I do. Grew up with it. Played it, coached, followed it.
Yet, I find the NFL nearly unwatchable.   It just seems so.... So... Contrived, and now the way the players act both on and off the field both during and before the games, it is almost offensive.  
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: ELA on September 21, 2017, 09:04:04 PM
Quote from: Honestbuckeye on September 21, 2017, 09:02:01 PM
Agreed. I could not love football more than I do. Grew up with it. Played it, coached, followed it.
Yet, I find the NFL nearly unwatchable.   It just seems so.... So... Contrived, and now the way the players act both on and off the field both during and before the games, it is almost offensive.  
I used to feel that way.
Now I can barely tell a difference as college football constantly tries to NFLize itself.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: BMF on September 21, 2017, 10:17:59 PM
Quote from: CatsbyAZ on September 21, 2017, 09:33:59 AM
Anyone in the mood to discuss Offensive Lines? 
So I had my annual checkup at the doc's last week.  New doctor.  When it came time for the cough cough routine, he said "Looks like a Pen!s, only smaller."  I thought that was a pretty bad and borderline offensive line.   
:)
Oh... you meant football?  My vote goes to the Saints.  I just hope they don't get Drew Brees killed this year.  No defense, and now the OL is bad too.  On top of that, they trade Cooks to the Pats during the off season.  
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on September 21, 2017, 10:30:21 PM
I haven't sat through a non-SB NFL game in a few years.  Last year was the first SB I simply didn't care to even watch any of.  I'm not sure why, I just don't give a damn.

I'm as critical of OL play as anyone, as that's what I played in HS.  I'm almost never impressed by any OL I watch.  If a guy gets a good block one play, he's just as likely to whiff the next, it seems.  I played left tackle, and as limited as I was, there are LTs getting paid millions of dollars who flat out suck.  They don't seem to have a plan at all.  I honestly want to blame height, of all things.

We know that the taller the basketball player, the better...up to a certain point.  Shaq was a revelation because he was coordinated in the paint AND 7'0", with strength.  You start getting up to 7'2", 7'4", 7'6" and they're guys who would BE comedic and a danger to themselves on roller skates.  Gawky.  Awkward.  Just a mess.

NFL left tackles (esp LT) are now 6'7", 6'8", 6'9".....and they suck.  I don't care if your arms are 40" long, ARE YOU COORDINATED ENOUGH TO USE THEM?!?  
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: CatsbyAZ on September 22, 2017, 09:30:08 AM
Quote from: Temp430 on September 21, 2017, 03:24:33 PM
Two years ago Penn State's OL was abysmal.  Now Coach Franklin claims they're the best in the Big Ten and he may be right.  Same kids I think.

Maybe Penn St's awful OL play two years ago had something to do with the Pillar of Salt they were blocking for? Understandably so.

But props to James Franklin for turning the OL into a strength rather than letting it linger as a weakness like so many other coaches do. Cough cough Andy Reid's clock management.

Was thinking that if you're an NFL GM do you turn exclusively to the pro-style college programs with a track record of plentiful NFL lineman? I'm thinking Stanford and Iowa as opposed to banking on a potentially better athlete and physical build from Oregon or Texas A&M? A dependable interior Guard shouldn't be such a headache to find and develop.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 22, 2017, 10:12:25 AM
Last week Cleveland announced that Joe Thomas had taken his 10,000th straight snap. As in, he has not missed a snap since he started in the NFL.

That is incredible.

Hasn't missed a pro bowl either. The record was 7 for an OL to start a career, but now Joe has the record at 10 (and counting). He's been all-pro 8 times.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 22, 2017, 10:34:33 AM
He's on the expansion Browns' Mt Rushmore. 
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: ELA on September 22, 2017, 11:31:10 AM
Quote from: 847badgerfan on September 22, 2017, 10:12:25 AM
Last week Cleveland announced that Joe Thomas had taken his 10,000th straight snap. As in, he has not missed a snap since he started in the NFL.

That is incredible.

Hasn't missed a pro bowl either. The record was 7 for an OL to start a career, but now Joe has the record at 10 (and counting). He's been all-pro 8 times.
That's the big one.

Pro Bowls, meh.  SUper Bowl participants now all have to be replaced, and so many guys opt out, I think one year they were down to the 7th choice QB to fill out the roster.

But man, 8 All Pros?  That's crazy.  And 6 of them are 1st team.  Only 24 players in NFL history have been First team All-Pro 7 or more times, only 9 primarily offensive linemen.

He gets a 7th, he joins Forrest Gregg, John Hannah, Bruce Matthews, Randall McDaniel and Bulldogs Turner.

OSU alum Jim Parker is the lone offensive lineman with 8.

Ron Mix and Anthony Munoz have 9.

Then Jim Otto (a Wisconsin native) is the gold standard with 10.

I think you can pretty easily say Joe Thomas (at worst) is the best NFL lineman since Randall McDaniel, and the best tackle since Munoz.  He could very well be 2nd all time to Munoz.  Granted prior to the 80s, you tended to put your best linemen inside to be road graders, and not til it really started opening up was tackle, namely left tackle, the premier offensive line position.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 22, 2017, 11:49:51 AM
He might have been all-pro even more in the days when the NFL was so many less teams and players to choose from. Who knows.

He's the best lineman since he came into the league. Just a shame he'll never get a ring as an NFL player. He's starting to talk about memory loss now too...
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: CatsbyAZ on September 25, 2017, 09:30:28 AM
Two of about the worst OLs are taking the field every other Sunday in Seattle and Indianapolis. And is it any wonder when their erosion started? Back when their star QB's rookie contracts expired and cap money become tied up on their much larger second contract. Seattle looks like a team invested in Russell Wilson, the defense, and nothing else because that's in fact where Pete Carroll directed the money. For now Wilson's feet can keep drives alive, but how much longer can his feet be counted on? Look at these other rookie-contract QBs with nice OLs. Marcus Mariotta and Dak Prescott taking snaps behind the two of the NFL's better OLs. Just like Wilson did. Once both are granted pricier contracts the roster will have to take a hit somewhere. Credit the Packers and Patriots for giving Rodgers and Brady strong OLs, but especially in the case of the Packers, it's been at the expense of depth on the Defense. Of course pricier QB contracts or salary cap limitations DON'T explain why there are so many bad lineman across the NFL, but it does get at how certain leakier OLs were back-burnered by GMs. Accurate of the Giants too.
Title: Re: Bad Offensive Lines
Post by: CatsbyAZ on December 12, 2022, 09:59:08 AM
Quote from: BMF on September 21, 2017, 10:17:59 PM
So I had my annual checkup at the doc's last week.  New doctor.  When it came time for the cough cough routine, he said "Looks like a Pen!s, only smaller."  I thought that was a pretty bad and borderline offensive line. 
:)
Oh... you meant football?   


(https://i.imgur.com/6GxF3e6.png)