CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: ELA on September 18, 2017, 02:18:36 PM
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Last time these two rivals meet until 2026. And considering those are shaping up to be neutral site games, could be the last time we see the Irish and the Spartans and their shared history (Big Ten membership, '66 Game of the Century) in East Lansing for a long, long time.
But at lease I assume Delany can get them replaced by a Wednesday afternoon game in July against Rutgers, at Madison Square Garden, so it's all good.
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Notre Dame leads the all time series 46-29-1.
They have played for the Megaphone since 1949.
Prior to that, Notre Dame went 13-2 vs Sparty from 1897-1921, with Sparty winning 1910, and 1918. Notre Dame also won in 1948, the year before the Trophy emerged.
Notre Dame won the first Trophy game in 1949 as well.
In the 1950s, MSU went 7-1 vs Notre Dame.
In the 1960s, MSU went 6-2-1 vs The Domers
In the 1970s, Notre Dame went 9-1 vs Sparty.
In the 1980s, The Irish went 8-2 vs MSU.
In the 1990s, Notre Dame went 5-3 vs MSU
In the 20ots, MSU went 6-4 vs ND.
So far in the 2010s, Notre Dame is 3-2 vs The Spartans.
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IIRC the road team has done disproportionately well over the past 20 years in the series
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IIRC the road team has done disproportionately well over the past 20 years in the series
The teams took a two-year hiatus in 1995 and 1996 (ND replaced MSU with tOSU, MSU replaced ND with Nebraska and both teams MSU&ND went 0-2).
After that hiatus they played 17 straight years (1997-2013) then did not play in 2014 and 2015 and got back together in 2016. MSU is 4-4 at home and 6-4 on the road. The road team has done disproportionately well due to an odd seven year stretch in which the road team went 7-0:
- 2001 MSU won 17-10 in South Bend
- 2002 ND won 21-17 in East Lansing
- 2003 MSU won 22-16 in South Bend
- 2004 ND won 31-24 in East Lansing
- 2005 MSU won 44-41 in South Bend
- 2006 ND won 40-37 in East Lansing
- 2007 MSU won 31-14 in South Bend
The Spartans had home wins in 2000 (27-21) and 2008 (23-7).
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I will actually be at this game, instead of in Columbus, watching the Buckeyes. I will be listening to Buckeye game on the radio on the way, and then watching this game. Hoping for a good game, and will sorta be saying Go Green/Go White......real real real softly.........lol
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Could be a fun game. Haven't got to watch any of MSU. ND is ok on defense this year, which is a great step after being galactically terrible the last couple years. Offensively, Wimbush has a live arm but his accuracy coupled with the receivers general blahness makes OSU look like the Air Raid. But they do have a physical offensive line and they can run the football - they posted 515 yards rushing against Boston College and 422 against Temple. Georgia held them to 55. Pretty clear game plan for Dantonio - stop the run.
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MSU also putting Kirk Gibson into the Ring of Honor on Saturday night to coincide with his induction into the College Football HOF.
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Knute Rockne, when asked why Notre Dame had lost a game: “I won’t know until my barber tells me on Monday.”
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Could be a fun game. Haven't got to watch any of MSU. ND is ok on defense this year, which is a great step after being galactically terrible the last couple years. Offensively, Wimbush has a live arm but his accuracy coupled with the receivers general blahness makes OSU look like the Air Raid. But they do have a physical offensive line and they can run the football - they posted 515 yards rushing against Boston College and 422 against Temple. Georgia held them to 55. Pretty clear game plan for Dantonio - stop the run.
Does MSU have the DLine to do this?
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#22 in the nation in S&P+ defense
Shut down a Western Michigan run game that ran all over USC the week before, and lead the Big Ten in total defense.
A lot to be determined, but so far, I have no reason to think they don't. Even from the start the question wasn't so much could the DL stop the run, it was whether it could get after the QB. That's been a more mixed bag thus far.
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Does MSU have the DLine to do this?
Indications thus far are that the front 7 can absolutely stop the run.
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Gotcha. I haven't got to see much so far this season because our channels on the boat are limited to broadcast and plain ESPN.
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I will actually be at this game, instead of in Columbus, watching the Buckeyes. I will be listening to Buckeye game on the radio on the way, and then watching this game. Hoping for a good game, and will sorta be saying Go Green/Go White......real real real softly.........lol
RD glad you traversed,some of the old guard trickling in
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Also, this week, and really every week, it's important to remember Brian Kelly killed a kid
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Gotcha. I haven't got to see much so far this season because our channels on the boat are limited to broadcast and plain ESPN.
On re-read that phrasing seems real cocky - not meant to be. Definitely could go the other way fast, but the defense has been a bright spot IMO. We thought the LBs would be solid and they have been. Bachie at MLB has been very, very good. We knew the secondary was young and while they've left some openings that poor QB play hasn't exploited, they've been solid and looked improved week over week. DL hasn't been crazy disruptive, but to my eyes has been better than last season (not saying much, but I'll take it).
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RD glad you traversed,some of the old guard trickling in
Been a bit busy lately, was here when it first went up, and just kept hanging around the other place until they pulled the plug......glad we still a place to discuss this thing called CFB! Hope this one is here a long long time, not sure how many more moves an old guy can make before having to hang up the key..........;)
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If you can stop/control ND's running game and keep Wimbush "in the pocket", you should be able to slow their offense. It also helps if you avoid making costly penalties on third down (which UGA did time and again).
We heard they have an "all world" left side of their OL, but it didn't impress me that much.
And of course stopping the run is the aim of nearly every defense playing nearly every offense with obvious exceptions.
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Write up on MSU's Little Giants fake FG to beat Notre Dame 7 years ago from Rivals
Remember that Staten ovesees the field goal protection unit, which also includes fake field goal plays.
I asked Staten if players have to remember to maintain a poker face when Mark Dantonio calls one of his crazy trick plays.
When watching the TV broadcast of the 2010 MSU-Notre Dame game, the cameras caught the moment when Mark Dantonio told his field goal unit "Little Giants." Dantonio certainly gave the orders with calmness. Freshman Max Bullough can be seen doubling back for a moment to make sure he heard it right.
Dantonio didn't even cover his mouth to give the order because, well, who else would know that the play was called "Little Giants"?
Secondly, if he DID cover his mouth, that might have been a tell for any Irish player paying attention. And they WERE paying attention.
I asked Staten about the importance of keeping a poker face when a gutsy play call is made. Apparently one Spartan player tipped his hand a little bit.
“Well, that’s what Le’Veon did," Staten said. "If you look back at some of the reporting, Manti Te’o said, ‘We saw the wing go up and talk to the holder.’"
Bell, MSU's standout running back at the time, was not on the sideline to get Dantonio's play call. He remained on the field as the rest of the field goal unit trotted onto the field. MSU players had the task of informing Bell of the play call without drawing too much attention to it. But Te'o sniffed it out.
"Le’Veon was on the field and he did not get the communication," Staten said. "So quickly when he got it, he was like, ‘Wait, that can’t be. It’s fourth-and-14. That can’t be happening.’
"So he actually went back (and confirmed it with the holder), so that’s why they (Notre Dame) tackled him."
Irish defensive players weren't fooled by the fake. They obstructed Bell as he tried to make his way downfield. The delay caused the holder, Aaron Bates, to buy some more time and escape the pocket while going to his second read, Charlie Gantt.
"And the guy who never caught the ball in practice, Charlie, ends up making the catch," Staten said.
Te'o knew something was up. But the rest of the Spartan sideline and most of the coaches were in the dark.
“No, they didn’t know," Staten said.
That's the nature of a super duper secret play call. The sideline needs to remain calm. The best way to keep it calm is to keep the orders to those who are on a need-to-know basis. At that time, only the 11-man field goal unit needed to know.
But MSU coaches heard it on the headsets, and some of them caught it.
"When Little Giants was happening, I think Brad Salem was in his first year here, and he said, ‘Did he call it?’
"And I went ' …(silent pause).'
"And he said, ‘Did he call ‘Little Giants?’
"And I just go, ‘Yeah …’
"He (Salem) brings that story up to me, and it’s funny because I don’t even remember that part of it, because when the head coach says, ‘Is it going to work?’ and you’ve got to answer that, ‘Yeah, coach, it’s going to work,’ and you’re going, ‘Man, it’s 4th and 14 and I just told him this play’s going to work, so hopefully it does.’”
And what goes through Staten's mind as a play like that, with his stamp on it, is unfolding?
“It’s just like all you guys who are parents," Staten said. "You’re nervous about your kid’s first day of school. You’re nervous about the first time driving. And the same thing goes with your kids on the football field, and now you’re doing it in front of 75,000-plus and millions and millions on TV.
"It’s a critical moment, and it can be decided on Le’Veon Bell getting tackled. But thankfully, Bates, cool as a cucumber. Calmly looked to his next read, and off it went.”
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I have a feeling that the Domers are quite a bit better than they are getting credit for.
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One of the rare Big Ten non-conference rivalries, one with a rich history in the makeup of the Big Ten, is coming to an end, more or less, after Saturday night. It's a shame. If it were up to me, Notre Dame would play Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, the military academies, USC and Stanford every year, then rotate the rest. But that model was unsustainable, and the need to work out a scheduling agreement with the ACC rendered some of these series dead. Doesn't mean we can't enjoy the final one though. One that has provided a lot of great games over the past 20 years and in it's deep history, most notably the Game of the Century. This game feels important for Michigan State in determining how "back" they are, but as the Lansing State Journal pointed out this week, this game is usually a false barometer, both good and bad, for the Spartans. Remember last year Michigan State held a 36-7 lead in South Bend, before Notre Dame made it close late...and then went 1-9 the rest of the way. In the five seasons in the past 30 years where Michigan State has played Notre Dame and won a Big Ten division and/or conference title, the Spartans lost 4 of the 5 games to the Irish, including in both of their Rose Bowl Championship seasons. Vice versa, in the 12 times Michigan State has won the game in the past 20 years (including last year) they have posted a winning conference record only four times. What's clear is that both teams want to establish the run game, but it's more critical for the Irish. Wimbush isn't the passer Lewerke is, and if Notre Dame can't stay ahead of the sticks, he's going to struggle. His biggest threat obviously is with his legs, setting a school record last week for rushing yards by a quarterback with 207. Fortunately for the Spartans the one pretty consistent strength for Mark Dantonio's defenses has been bottling up running quarterbacks. Wimbush isn't going to need to throw for 300 yards, but his 11-24 for 96 yard day against Boston College probably won't come close to getting it done. The Michigan State defensive line has been better than expected so far, and Western Michigan's offensive line showed against USC it's no slouch. But the left side of that Irish line is probably as nasty as Michigan State will see all year, and I'm not sure they have the speed at linebacker to contain Wimbush like Georgia does. The home crowd, excited for the first big football game in two years, under the lights will carry Michigan State early, but I think Notre Dame wears them down over the course of the second half, and eases the pressure on Brian Kelly very temporarily.
NOTRE DAME 27, MICHIGAN STATE 26
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Referenced article on how unimportant this game actually is to MSU's season from the Lansing State Journal
EAST LANSING – Michigan State’s football game against Notre Dame is always a big deal for the Spartans. It is not always a determining or telling game, though. In fact, in the last 30 years, it is more often a game unto itself, having little to do with how MSU fares in the Big Ten season.
Keep that in mind Saturday night, however it goes.
It is a rivalry. A great one. One that’s ending after 70 years. But it is nothing more.
Consider this: Since 1987, in the five seasons that MSU has won a Big Ten championship, a share of the title or a division title and played Notre Dame in that season, the Spartans are just 1-4 against the Irish.
In the 12 years MSU has beaten Notre Dame since 1997, the Spartans have gone on to have a winning Big Ten record just four times.
There is really only one MSU win over Notre Dame since the 10-10 tie in 1966 that was a sign of good things on the horizon for the Spartans — MSU’s 34-31 overtime win in 2010, capped by the fake field goal touchdown play known forever as “Little Giants.” That victory, in memorable fashion, marked the Spartans’ arrival in the Mark Dantonio era.
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/abc77507a1578ebb10decd33e57891c7cb7d20c9/c=83-0-3299-2418&r=x408&c=540x405/local/-/media/2017/09/21/MIGroup/Lansing/636415777695996705-Herb-Haygood-Notre-Dame.jpg)
Other wins over Notre Dame have simply been a magical night or inspired early season hope. Usually false hope. Think of Jeff Smoker’s game-winning touchdown pass to Herb Haygood in 2000. MSU went 2-6 the rest of the way. Or the flag-planting incident in 2005 in South Bend with John L. Smith at the controls. Also a 2-6 finish. Or even Dantonio’s first season, a 31-14 home win for a 4-0 start. Then, 3-6.
And, of course, the lesson of all lessons — last season. MSU’s 36-28 Sept. 17 win in South Bend fooled everyone. The Spartans would win only once more, two months later against Rutgers.
Conversely, some of MSU’s worst moments against Notre Dame had very little to do with the big picture.
In 1987, the Spartans were thumped by Notre Dame, 31-8 in South Bend. That team went 7-0-1 in the Big Ten and beat USC in the Rose Bowl.
In 2011, MSU was humbled, 31-13, at Notre Dame. The Spartans then won eight of their next nine games and took the Big Ten’s Legends Division, with wins over Ohio State, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa.
Two years later, MSU was called for five pass interference penalties, while its own offense stumbled along searching for a quarterback in a 17-13 defeat. The Spartans didn’t lose again, winning all nine Big
Ten games by double digits, including the Big Ten championship game against unbeaten Ohio State, before a dramatic Rose Bowl victory over Stanford. That MSU team might have won a national title had the College Football Playoff existed a year earlier.
(https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/5c0a10c580a9a3c169beb41ce67485645856651a/c=0-82-2496-1959&r=x408&c=540x405/local/-/media/2017/09/21/MIGroup/Lansing/636415781295875781-Darqueze-Dennard-Notre-Dame.jpg)
Darqueze Dennard and Michigan State's defense were called for five pass interference penalties in a 17-13 loss at Notre Dame in 2013. The Spartans didn't lose again that year, winning the Big Ten title and the Rose Bowl. (Photo: Jonathan Daniel / Getty Images)
One could argue the Notre Dame game in 2013 was an important game within that season. It forced a permanent change at quarterback, turning the offense over to Connor Cook, who found himself as a QB in MSU’s next game, at Iowa. But there was no sign in South Bend that Cook would arrive in time. In fact, based on conversations I had with people who know more about quarterback play than I do, there were doubts then whether Cook could ever be a competent starter.
All of this is a reminder that, while Saturday night is an opportunity for a program rebirth in front of a large television audience, the real work comes later. Next week against Iowa. Then at Michigan. And so on and so forth.
“This is just another game in that regard,” Dantonio said. “This is the next challenge. There are going to be other big challenges that they are going to be able to look forward to throughout their football careers playing here, and that's the kind of place Michigan State is. That's the kind of place Notre Dame is. You're always going to have a big game, the next big game. There's no finality in that.”
There is finality to this series. These two programs won’t meet until 2026 at the earliest.
This is the last time for a long while to embrace the big-game vibe Notre Dame brings with it — even if it’s not really always that big of a game.
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I have a feeling that the Domers are quite a bit better than they are getting credit for.
I think they are an 8-4 kind of team, which would get them ranked 20-25 usually end of regular season, and a minor bowl game.
They should be able to beat the weaker teams like BC on their slate, but teams like Stanford and USC should beat them, and Miami and NCSU can beat them as well. At best, they lose to USC and go 10-2 I think, but that is improbable.
Kelly may be job hunting.
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Well they already beat BC.
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Well they already beat BC.
Obviously, which is why I posted "teams like BC". They have others similar on their schedule, and some not similar.
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I am very interested to see if MSU will fall apart after what happened last year or if they will stand up and fight back.
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If it were up to me, Notre Dame would play Michigan, Michigan State, Purdue, the military academies, USC and Stanford every year, then rotate the rest.
I agree with this, and that seems to be what they were doing. At least as long as I've been watching CFB. Aside from the Military Academies, of which only Navy was on the annual.
It sucks that the Big Ten is losing one of their three ND rivalries. But I understand why this would be the one that ND would sacrifice. It would probably be the one that I would pick as well, if I had to pick one.
The ND-Michigan game is huge. Not only is it a match up of two nearby helmet schools, but it always happened right out of the gate. Both teams are routinely overrated in the preseason polls, and this game would take place before either team had been exposed. So it was always a huge game Nationally. I'm glad they are bringing it back. It was the game that made it feel like the CFB season was officially underway, in my opinion.
The Purdue game has the whole in-state thing going on. I imagine it's a pretty big deal in Indiana.
The MSU rivalry just didn't seem to have all that much pizzaz outside of the Sparty fan base. Sure, it was noteworthy when MSU got the upset, but no more so than any other helmet team getting knocked off by a non-helmet in September.
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Bye week hurt
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0-3 in turn overs for MSU. You don't win many games against decent opponents with that stat.
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0-3 in turn overs for MSU. You don't win many games against decent opponents with that stat.
It's usually the determining factor. MSU outgained them by 150 yards, had more first downs and dominated TOP...and lost by 20.
Particularly when the three turnovers are so directly linked to scores. You have a pick six. A fumble recovery that sets Notre Dame up inside the red zone. A fumble inside the 1 going in for a score. They directly linked to 21 points of swing. They also had an 80 yard drive end in a turnover on downs.
Granted at this point MSU has allowed four non offensive TDs in 3 games, and had two fumbles inside the one. So it's hard for me to say, "if not for the high leverage turnovers" when after three games that simply appears to be a part of who they are, not some one game fluke.
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Very few teams overcome that 3-0 margin. Obviously, an "OSU" could do that playing "Akron", but not in anything reasonably competitive. I view TOs are about 85% random events. A team that pressures the passer and has aggressive DBs will get more INTs than "average", but fumbles often are just helmet meets ball. Even strips are somewhat random when you consider the recovery probability.
ND might be better than MSU, but not by what the score would suggest IMHO. ND has an interesting schedule I think. Miami (OH) and @UNC, and then USC, NC State, Wake, @Miami, Navy, @ Stanford. They should be 5-1 going into the USC game, which could be interesting. I've said from the start that NC State should be a solid team. They dropped the opener to USCe on turnovers then beat FSU at FSU. I don't know how good Miami may be.
A 10-2 ND probably gets a NY6 bowl berth.
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It's usually the determining factor. MSU outgained them by 150 yards, had more first downs and dominated TOP...and lost by 20.
Particularly when the three turnovers are so directly linked to scores. You have a pick six. A fumble recovery that sets Notre Dame up inside the red zone. A fumble inside the 1 going in for a score. They directly linked to 21 points of swing. They also had an 80 yard drive end in a turnover on downs.
Granted at this point MSU has allowed four non offensive TDs in 3 games, and had two fumbles inside the one. So it's hard for me to say, "if not for the high leverage turnovers" when after three games that simply appears to be a part of who they are, not some one game fluke.
How many of those MSU yards were garbage time yards when the game was clearly over?
LJ Scott is so talented, but he's never corrected his case of fumbilitis. It's just who he is at this point as a JR. If he ever fixed that and got his head on straight he's a 1st or 2nd round pick. He's as talented a big back as you'll see.
Lewerke is a dangerous player- for his team and the other team. He's capable of making huge plays for his team but he's also capable of making huge plays for the other team. I don't know if that's due to his youth and inexperience or if that's just who he is. I really like his raw ability and talent- his size, arm strength, and mobility are all very good- but he's got to be more careful with that football.
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How many of those MSU yards were garbage time yards when the game was clearly over?
LJ Scott is so talented, but he's never corrected his case of fumbilitis. It's just who he is at this point as a JR. If he ever fixed that and got his head on straight he's a 1st or 2nd round pick. He's as talented a big back as you'll see.
Lewerke is a dangerous player- for his team and the other team. He's capable of making huge plays for his team but he's also capable of making huge plays for the other team. I don't know if that's due to his youth and inexperience or if that's just who he is. I really like his raw ability and talent- his size, arm strength, and mobility are all very good- but he's got to be more careful with that football.
MSU outgained them by 80 in the 4th quarter and outscored them by 5.
So to outgain then by 150 and lose by 20, or outgain them by 70 and be down by 25, I don't get what your argument is.
Typically you lose the turnover battle, particularly decisively, and when those three turnovers are about as directly linked to 21 points as it gets, the other stats are totally irrelevant. That was all I said.
Also the Scott fumbling issue is new. He had 3 lost fumbles in his first two years combined, now 4 in 3 games this year, two inside the 1 yard line. Something is in his head.
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ND might be better than MSU, but not by what the score would suggest IMHO.
That's how I left the game. I'm more than willing to submit that ND is better, but if that's the case it's not by much.
MSU can still be a very solid team if they start to clean up fixable mistakes. Stuff like lining up off-sides on a 3rd and 1 more so than the LJ fumble. While its super frustrating it popped and even more frustrating that he didn't fall on it, the ND player had a great punch on it there. The two Lewerke turnovers are very fixable.