CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => SEC => Topic started by: Drew4UTk on September 18, 2017, 11:52:18 AM
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... not that anyone who matters will read this.
What you've done putting the program back together after the Fooley years is astounding. Truly a great accomplishment. The staff has been adjusted and the talent is there to compete at least in the SEC. There is a vibe with the team and with those close to the program that is positive and determined. that should be praised as well.
the players are committed and have bought into the jive, that is apparent. There are some things that need to be addressed that i'm certain your staff and you are more capable of identifying and executing than some fans ever could. I wager we all appreciate that.
there is an adjustment that needs to be made in your office, though, and it starts and finishes between your own ears. it's a simple thing. confidence.
you guys practice hard, and play hard- but you play in fear of losing or screwing up. that's unfortunate. when you play with your dingle dangle in peril it is apparent what a force your team can be- that is offense, defense, and special teams, all... you can play with anyone. when you play safe, you let people hang around and some steal those W's right out of your pocket.
train them, sir, and let them play the game no matter who they are playing or what the ramifications of winning or losing mean... cut them loose on every down. have the confidence and give it to your boys- don't foster a fear of what happens when you drop a ball or when a play get's busted- just let them play all out and see for themselves they'll be rewarded more than they'll be penalized. this one adjustment, sir, will make everyone inside and outside the program a lot happier, and the wins will come.
for the love of all that's holy, let them eat.
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We all matter...
Who is the next guy to come in and restore the shine to the once shiny helmet?
I don't think it's Butch Jones. I really don't.
(Can say the same about Nebraska, to be honest, with Riley. The shine is gone there too and he's not the answer.)
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should we call it "the curse of Fulmer" or "the Solich curse"? When Nebraska cut Solich after having a bad season I thought it the epitome of dumb to fire him w/o someone in the wings... and then Miami did it... and then my own Vols did it... and none of them have been the same since- with Miami leading the better option of returning under Richt.
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It's just not as easy as Fan Expectations make us think it is. When I ask the average fan what they want, they usually respond with something that sounds a lot like Ohio State, if not Alabama. And I totally get the desire, but it's just not reasonable. There's only one Saban and Urbz, and even the next tier down like Harbaugh aren't plentious.
I remain torn on if LSU should have fired Miles. Yes, I think he began to underperform reasonable program expectations. But that's the thing....HE should have been doing better. That's completely different than saying somebody else could've been doing better. And the other thing to consider is, even if you are dead certain a guy like Miles needs to go, it's not just about him underperforming. It's also a matter of who are you going to replace him with? It's missed on most national fans, and LSU fans for sure....always was much more trendy to goof on Miles.....but honestly LSU experienced not just the best period of LSU history under him, but one of the best overall runs in cfb history. It really was a good time for LSU football. LSU lucked out twice in a row in Saban and then Miles. The law of averages is not an active force, rather merely a description of general occurrences, but it is a description of real factors happening in real life. And the law of averages says LSU's hire, for example, isn't going to get us what we want. No matter who we got.
And again, there's just not a lot of guys out there who can do what we want.
Here's some articles you might find relevant and interesting on this topic. Geared towards LSU, but relevant to all.
The History of Replacing a Declining Coach (https://www.andthevalleyshook.com/2016/10/4/13124874/the-history-of-replacing-a-declining-coach)
The coach you want isn't going anywhere (https://www.andthevalleyshook.com/2016/11/23/13718816/history-suggests-jimbo-fisher-isn-t-leaving-fsu-lsu-coaching-search)
It's interesting you mention Nebraska/Solich while talking about Tennessee. Those are literally the two programs I've thought about over and over during all this.
This is not to say any of these schools should not have fired guys. I'm just saying the idea that even a top level school can easily do appreciably better is false.
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I think the best bet is to shun the NFL model of coaching retreads like the plague. For a variety of reasons, most notably $ and performance and fit, they just aren't going to work out like you hope, for the monetary commitment a school will wind up with.
If you're going to get on the coaching carousel, I think the best bet is to shoot for a rising star....an up and comer who shows signs that they can hack it at a bigger program. A good AD should be able to lock them in for less $ than a "proven commodity" would command, and if (when) they don't work out, you're less in the hole.
Mind you, there's still a high probability you don't get the next Saban or Meyer, but I'm assuming that everyone knows by now that said coaching carousel is likely to be a death trap with some years of heartbreaks prior to finding The Guy.
Tom Herman is a good example of the type of guy I think programs like LSU or Tennessee should go after when they're in the market. I was glad we at least kicked the tires on him, even though he didn't want LSU and we couldn't have gotten into a bidding war with Texas. At least he was on the AD's radar.
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the Saben's and Miles's are accounted for- well, Miles maybe not right now, but you get the idea. they are a lot like drafting players in the NFL- you have something to work with and you gauge carefully- and once in five or six you strike gold.. once in those five or six you find a diamond.
here is the thing about coaching that simply doesn't register with most fans: these guys are in transition constantly too- they don't coach up to a certain level and then discover 'they've arrived' and stop... they are continuously tweaking this or going back to the drawing board on that- making adjustments to better their product/selves constantly. it is when they've hit a rut of some sort and lose perspective on where the oil needs to be applied or to return attention to somewhere they've lost touch when the problems start surfacing.
so it is with Butch- he has focused on 'rebuilding' and trying to get the community pumped- and he's done a good job- seriously. he's always tried to better the product on the field, too- but.... the one caveat about him that kills me, and it's apparent in a big game when he's behind: HE CAN DRIVE HIS TROOPS TO PERFORM- THOSE FELLA'S CAN PERFORM- but... still.. .they don't. they let folks hang around that ought not be in the game, and he always gets scored on first in the big games and THEN reacts. If he cut his troops lose without fear of performance, he'd find greater success is my opinion.. he hasn't grown in this regard that is apparent... if he gains confidence and cuts them lose- UT will be back on the map. Unlike a lot of people, I don't hate on the man at all... I think it's literally that one adjustment... damn the expectations and the immobilizing fear of losing- just play the game.
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From MDT:
"even the next tier down like Harbaugh"
Is he on the next tier down? No conference titles. No division titles. Don't you at least have to win something in college to be on the next tier down?
Sure, he got to a Superbowl (not college).
So did John Fox and Lovie Smith and Bill Callahan and Ken Whisenhunt.
Anyone lining up for those guys?
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should we call it "the curse of Fulmer" or "the Solich curse"? When Nebraska cut Solich after having a bad season I thought it the epitome of dumb to fire him w/o someone in the wings... and then Miami did it... and then my own Vols did it... and none of them have been the same since- with Miami leading the better option of returning under Richt.
Solich got fired for winning 9 games in 2003, and only going 58-19 (0.753) overall. UNL is 0.639 since.
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From MDT:
"even the next tier down like Harbaugh"
Is he on the next tier down? No conference titles. No division titles. Don't you at least have to win something in college to be on the next tier down?
Sure, he got to a Superbowl (not college).
So did John Fox and Lovie Smith and Bill Callahan and Ken Whisenhunt.
Anyone lining up for those guys?
He may be a bad example, so insert your preferred coach. It isn't material to my point.
I was just thinking in terms of he immediately resurrected a crappy Michigan team that had been crappy for several years out of the doldrums, turned them into a top 10 quality team, recruits at a high level and can clearly coach well in other aspects. Michigan was nothing more than Texas Tech for a while. Now they're a team who can compete with anyone, even if they don't win. Much like our situation with Alabama, Michigan may find it hard to win many titles of anything with Ohio State rolling in their division. That doesn't mean he isn't one of the better coaches in cfb.
But again, if he doesn't float your boat, insert whomever.
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Guys like David Shaw, Chris Peterson and Gary Patterson come to mind. Even Dantonio, who had a bad year last season, is in that tier. Franklin?
BUT
Would those guys leave their spot for a job at Tennessee, LSU or Nebraska? That is the big question.
Dabo is probably in that first tier. Maybe Fisher?
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Only 4 active coaches have won NCs. To be in a top tier, you have to start there.
To me, to be on the next tier you'd have to win your conference and maybe go to and/or win multiple BCS/Playoff site bowl games.
After that, you have guys like Harbaugh who bring the hype but not the results as of yet.
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When we talk about helmet schools, there's 7-8-9-10 of them or so, depending on your personal list. There are never, at one time, 7-10 elite coaches at the top of their game. There just aren't. And coaches age out/retire. 3 years ago, there were Stoops, Beamer, Spurrier - they're gone. Name guys. Big-name coordinators have gotten recent looks - Strong, Muschamp and Smart come to mind. Richt gets his walking papers. Strong doesn't work out, but is a get for USF. Muschamp doesn't work out, but USCe takes him in. Meanwhile, guys with success at smaller joints like Herman, Taggert, and McElwain get chances, and we'll see.
It's such a crap shoot. That's why I never jump on an AD at the time of a new hire. All you can do is wait and see. For every great coach who does everything well, there's 10 that do almost everything well. Zook and Muschamp could recruit, but during the game, forget it. Or a guy can know the Xs and Os, but the talent level drops. Or he gets the players, coaches them up, but screws an intern.
Saban succeeded at smaller places (Toledo, MSU), same with Urbs (BG, Utah). Personally, I'd be most comfortable (put the bad odds a little in my favor) by hiring a guy who has been the main man somewhere and done well. I feel like ADs hire coordinators because they're the hot name and the fan base goes nuts. That's a bad reason to hire someone, lol.
VT hires a guy, Fuente, who did a big turnaround at Memphis, then goes 10-4 for the Hokies. Whether it works out or not, VT showed prudence. Urban Meyer wasn't special when he was losing to Ball State in 2001. He became special. He used the better infrastructure at better jobs to lift himself up. If you dropped 2001 Meyer into Gainesville or Columbus, he isn't going 12-1 or whatever.
All you can do is try to make a 12% chance of hitting a home run into a 15% chance imo.
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* There's 2 guys who had great peak seasons at small schools, Doc Holliday at Marshall and George O'Leary at UCF, who dropped off a cliff 2 years later. Lucky no one hired them...or maybe they knew not to hire them. I don't know.
Just making note of that.
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UNL needs to be really careful on how it proceeds in the coming year or so.
Fan are wanting Scott Frost (and Chip Kelly... nope) and if they get a guy like Frost and he fails... Then what? You fire a legend and all that. Who wants the job now?
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Only 4 active coaches have won NCs. To be in a top tier, you have to start there.
To me, to be on the next tier you'd have to win your conference and maybe go to and/or win multiple BCS/Playoff site bowl games.
After that, you have guys like Harbaugh who bring the hype but not the results as of yet.
Eh, I'm not so high on attaching an NC as a must in order for a coach to be recognized as really, really good. A great coach can get and keep a team in the mix, but there are a lot of outside factors that affect teams winning an NC that the coach/team has zero control over. It buys into that whole "whoever has the most rings is the GOAT" mentality, which is terminally dumb.
For me, if a guy can immediately resurrect a floundering blue blood like Michigan and have them in the conversation, can take a perennial joke like Stanford and turn them into a west coast power, and also have NFL success.....you're a very good coach, worth naming on the 2nd tier at least.
Harbaugh is an odd kind of dick, but we hired one of those anyway, and I can tell you which one I'd rather have coaching here if I had my preference.
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Those were more or less guidelines the way I see it. It's hard to apply a simple criteria over 120+ coaches. But if the ultimate goal in a NC, and it is for a helmet school like Michigan, how do you label him elite when he hasn't won or even competed for the big prize?
Shouldn't Harbaugh at least win his division in CFB to be considered elite, or even tier 2? He has hasn't won a conference division. At the same time you can have guys like McElwain who have won divisions but nobody would put him on the same level as Harbaugh. And you can also have a guy like Saban who did average at best in the NFL and is probably the best CFB coach of all time.
It's a case by case basis, and even then there is going to be a pecking order in the same tier.
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I suspect there will be a higher number than usual of "name programs" with openings in December. That is a tough time to do a search obviously. The SEC is going to be on the coaching carousel for a few years I think.
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Well the last carousel was a net coaching downgrade, so maybe the next round will be an upgrade.
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Those were more or less guidelines the way I see it. It's hard to apply a simple criteria over 120+ coaches. But if the ultimate goal in a NC, and it is for a helmet school like Michigan, how do you label him elite when he hasn't won or even competed for the big prize?
Shouldn't Harbaugh at least win his division in CFB to be considered elite, or even tier 2? He has hasn't won a conference division. At the same time you can have guys like McElwain who have won divisions but nobody would put him on the same level as Harbaugh. And you can also have a guy like Saban who did average at best in the NFL and is probably the best CFB coach of all time.
It's a case by case basis, and even then there is going to be a pecking order in the same tier.
Mac needs to climb trees, have a sleepover (creepy) with a recruit, take his team to Rome and hold 5,285 camps in a month, among many other stunts.
Then he can be elite, too.
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Shouldn't Harbaugh at least win his division in CFB to be considered elite, or even tier 2? He has hasn't won a conference division.
He did at Stanford, no? At any rate, he's done enough that I'd put him with the tier 2 coaches below Saban/Meyer/whoever. I'd rather have him than Jimbo, tbh. Your mileage may vary.
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I suspect there will be a higher number than usual of "name programs" with openings in December. That is a tough time to do a search obviously. The SEC is going to be on the coaching carousel for a few years I think.
Someone posted some pics on an LSU site a while back, group photos of all SEC coaches, one current and one about 8ish years ago or so. One is hard-pressed to admit the current group of faces do not measure up to that older group of faces. And it showed in the conference, then and now. The SEC was dominant for a while. Now it's not nearly as tough as it was a few seasons ago.
You could wonder what happened to all these high-caliber coaches, and it's a fair question. I'm inclined to agree with one poster who posited that Saban has basically killed the rest of the SEC. No school's success was good enough in Alabama's wake, and a lot of them have jettisoned coaches, not for not being great coaches, but for not being him. He's run everyone off from their job for failing to beat him or be competitive with Alabama. There's some exceptions, but a few of those faces who are good at their jobs definitely got canned because Alabama is wrecking the curve.
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Okay, but if Urban's heart could handle the pressure in Gainesville, there'd be no reason there couldn't be an east version of Bama, no?
Back in the early 90s, when you had Bama and Florida in the SECCG every year, they could both go 11-1, no problem. Same with Florida-Tennessee even - 2 teams finishing in the top 5 nationally routinely.
If Meyer is still at UF, I'm not going to say he'd have the upper hand vs Saban or even be even with him, but he'd have some successes at that top level.
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He did at Stanford, no? At any rate, he's done enough that I'd put him with the tier 2 coaches below Saban/Meyer/whoever. I'd rather have him than Jimbo, tbh. Your mileage may vary.
No is correct. Best finish was #2 (There were no division back then, but Oregon would be in the same one anyway).
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Also, let's not pretend that Stanford was a nothing before he showed up. They have the 4th most conference championships in the PAC, behind USC, UCLA and Washington.
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Also, let's not pretend that Stanford was a nothing before he showed up. They have the 4th most conference championships in the PAC, behind USC, UCLA and Washington.
They were most definitely nothing before he showed up. Your irrational hatred towards Harbaugh couldn't be more obvious.
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Stanford's history is irrelevant. LSU is the 13th winningest program of all time, it didn't stop a string of crappy coaches from nearly eradicating us from the map in the 90's.
Michigan has more history than almost anybody. And they slid into mediocrity with Carr, then stayed there with RichRod and Hoke. Let's not act like any ol' body can go in there and make them a top 10 team and keep them there.
Stanford was worse than hot garbage when Harbaugh took over. He's taken two college programs from the trash bin to top 10 quality teams, and he's taken an NFL team to a superbowl. As coaching goes, there aren't many guys who can match or beat that.
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Not liking Harbaugh (I never said hate - that word applies only to certain politicians and world leaders) is not irrational at all. It's natural to dislike self-promoting egomaniacs.
The new guy at Minnesota is right there with him in that regard.
RichRod was a terrible hire for a program like Michigan. Talk about square pegs and round holes. That was never going to work. It wouldn't work at a place like LSU either.
Brady Hoke won 11 games in his fist season at Michigan and posted a 31-20 record. He got fired after winning 5 games in 2014. Could he have turned it around? We'll never know.
Lloyd Carr won 9 games in his last season at Michigan, and 11 the year before. The fewest he won in a season was 7. I'm not sure why they pushed him out.
Phil Fulmer and Frank Solich aren't sure why either.
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The quality of Michigan's team has improved greatly. Not sure why you don't see that.
Those Michigan teams, whatever records they achieved, were mediocre. Anybody who watched them knows this. In Hoke's first year when they won however many games you say, I used to watch them for no other reason than to laugh at their secondary and how it looked like some sort of bad high school ball. By the end of Carr's term and in RichRod's, Michigan got blown up by top level teams because they just weren't of that quality. They can compete and win those type of games now. They have better talent, they're better coached, and they are mentally tougher.
Saying RichRod was a bad fit doesn't exactly argue against my point.
I'd be curious to know your list of coaches out there you think are above Harbaugh, sans Saban/Meyer. You obviously think Harbaugh is tier 3 or worse, so who's your tier 2?
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Guys like David Shaw, Chris Peterson and Gary Patterson come to mind. Even Dantonio, who had a bad year last season, is in that tier. Franklin?
BUT
Would those guys leave their spot for a job at Tennessee, LSU or Nebraska? That is the big question.
Dabo is probably in that first tier. Maybe Fisher?
Saban is not in a tier. Saban doesn't need a tier. He's in his own world, with Bryant, Paterno and the other all-time greats.
1st tier is Urban, Fisher and Dabo.
2nd tier is much bigger and includes guys I mentioned above, along with guys like Richt, Snyder, Gundy, Mullen, Leach, Gus, Petrino, Ferentz, and yes, Jim Harbaugh.
Not sure what to do with guys like Fitzgerald and Cutcliffe, and then the other guys who have not done it very long but show great signs.
Then you have a guy like Bielema. Good coach, good program manager? Was his success in Madison because of the program his boss built? It's starting to look that way from where I sit. Where he sits might be getting a little hot.
This reasoning is why I'm not including the current UW coach in that tier - yet. We'll see what happens, but I do know he's had to remake/correct a lot of things when he got back home and that he's not done yet.
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I would hate to be an AD looking for a new HC in 2017/8. I would have a lot of company.
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From the SEC, you're probably gonna have a few. Mizzou? Ole Miss? A&M?
The seats in Fayetteburgh and Knoxboro are probably warming up. Anyone else?
I think all the coaches in the B1G are safe right now, sans Riley at Nebraska.
In the XII maybe a few like Kansas and ISU and Baylor. Who wants those jobs though?
Seems like the only hot seat in the ACC could be NCSU. He's had a lot of time there and hasn't been able to push through. BC maybe?
The PAC has the most, probably. Mora, Andersen, RichRod and Graham are feeling the heat.
The most attractive openings could be A&M, UNL and UCLA.
The guys who coach at places like Memphis and SDSU are licking their chops.
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In the SEC, I'd say ADs will be under pressure to fire and hire at:
Ole Miss
Mizzou
A&M
Tennessee
Auburn
LSU
I'm not saying they will all pull the trigger of course. South Carolina is probably two years away, I'm not at all sold on their coach and their loss at home to UK is pretty bad. Florida, UGA, and Vandy are safe (though the Vandy coach might listen to offers, the other side to this is that a program loses a coach).
But, the other factor is that several of those programs listed above are "name programs" and have some ability to offer megabucks.
Nationally, I think Notre Dame might be looking depending. They are something like 6-19 over their last set of games.
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Is he on the next tier down? No conference titles. No division titles. Don't you at least have to win something in college to be on the next tier down?
So after all that, you agree he's on the next tier down from Urbz.
It's like you want me to waste keystrokes.
If you wanted to note your distinction between Saban and Urbz, you should've done that up front, we could've avoided all this.
I'll say fair enough for now, while noting that Saban's titles at two different schools have come over a longer period of time than Urban has been going at two different schools, and Urban's not done yet. As is Saban. I don't know that there's the distinction you think there is, but I'm not convinced there's not, either.
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CD,
LSU is not going to be looking for a coach at the end of the year. We could go 0-8 in the conference and it's not going to happen. Not even Alleva is that dumb.
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I still don't get rtf4's and Badger's insistence that championships are a definitive criteria. You guys are arguing that Miles is a better coach/higher tier than Harbaugh, you realize that, don't you? I can't see marrying myself to that idea.
This is the type of thinking that says Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan, and Brady is 2.5x better than Manning, who is 2x as good as Brees.
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So after all that, you agree he's on the next tier down from Urbz.
It's like you want me to waste keystrokes.
If you wanted to note your distinction between Saban and Urbz, you should've done that up front, we could've avoided all this.
I'll say fair enough for now, while noting that Saban's titles at two different schools have come over a longer period of time than Urban has been going at two different schools, and Urban's not done yet. As is Saban. I don't know that there's the distinction you think there is, but I'm not convinced there's not, either.
He's pretty far down in that next tier and has a long, long way to go to get in the higher one. Getting into the lower one is probably more likely, in my opinion.
He gets high marks for improving programs, no doubt. It's the "win something" thing that is holding him back.
What do you guys make of my thoughts on Bielema?
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I still don't get rtf4's and Badger's insistence that championships are a definitive criteria. You guys are arguing that Miles is a better coach/higher tier than Harbaugh, you realize that, don't you? I can't see marrying myself to that idea.
This is the type of thinking that says Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan, and Brady is 2.5x better than Manning, who is 2x as good as Brees.
It's not fair to compare player accomplishments with coaching accomplishments.
At some point, your bite has to match your bark and JH is not there yet.
Miles was a great coach. He just got dated. It happens. That run he had, in THAT conference no less, was pretty incredible.
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Miles' issue was that he couldn't keep up with his own history. That happens. If your first 5 years are better than your second 5 years, no matter how good those 2nd-five years are, people start talking. It's not fair, but for the money they get paid, fair doesn't matter.
Fulmer had the same issue.
Personally, more than championships, in college football - specifically - you have to matter in November. Doesn't matter if you're 3rd in the country or 11th or with 2 losses or undefeated, if you routinely get to November with your goals still in play, you matter and you're safe.
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Yeah, Richt also suffered in his last few years compared with his first ten or so. There was the impression the Dawgs were sliding backwards (more than an impression). They were 20-6 in his last two seasons and it wasn't sufficient.
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It wasn't Fulmer, per say.. it was the trio of cutcliff/FULMER/chavis ... together, they were magic. apart, they're just okay.
Miles played with fire constantly... I imagine him sneaking out the back of his folk's house when he was a child with a dollhouse swiped from his sister under one arm, a bottle of grill lighter fluid in the opposing paw, and a magnifying glass in his back pocket headed toward the shed his pa keeps volatile chemicals and explosives in..... so he can have some privacy... Live by the sword, die by the sword- and that's what happened to him by my reckoning.
Richt is an interesting study to me... the man is/was a great OC- and a great just plain human being... His team's were well coached, but his lack of killer instinct manifest itself by giving coaches more rope after they'd proven they weren't up to the task- and speaking of up to the task- Richt's gameplan was his demise imHo. It's NOT that is was bad- to the contrary- it was good bordering great... to the point it required only a little adjustment to break into great... perpetually... and that did it... the 'study' i mentioned is the trap he fell in- he was almost a champion.. enough to believe in what he had going instead of chopping it and going back to the drawing board. a ball bounced this way, or a call wen that way, and his team didn't make the championship- outside his control almost- inside his control were things like doggedly repeating game plans (they worked, why not, right?) and building a well documented attack that could be anticipated and likely not shut down by many (lessor East opponents) but could consistently be shut down by the other SEC threats... it was almost, all the time... and I'd rather have something going that is an obvious failure so that i'd know it needed to be abandoned rather than what he had- something that perpetually almostworked.
what the SEC had a few years ago was amazing... Myer, Saben, Miles, Fulmer, Spurrier, Tubberville, Richt.... I don't know if that could possibly be repeated.
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You guys seem to have a lot more respect for Miles than most of the LSU fans I've ever known. Most of them would tell you all his successes are due to Saban and all his shortcomings were his own doing. As a microcosm of that, every game LSU won was in spite of his coaching and every game LSU lost was because of his coaching. My dad swears that Miles only succeeded because of the strong program Saban left him with, and the historic loss to MSU Saturday was because O is having to deal with the mess Miles left him (10-3 and a talented roster is a mess). I'd have to say he's more the rule than the exception.
I don't know how to argue with that, but you can't deny it is a neat bit of mental gymnastics wherein you create a scenario where your opinion about him can't be wrong.
I heard clips of callers to an Ohio State radio talk show after the OU loss and those idgits were calling for Urban to be fired. Maybe all fans are nuts.
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I still don't get rtf4's and Badger's insistence that championships are a definitive criteria. You guys are arguing that Miles is a better coach/higher tier than Harbaugh, you realize that, don't you? I can't see marrying myself to that idea.
This is the type of thinking that says Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan, and Brady is 2.5x better than Manning, who is 2x as good as Brees.
i'd like to take a second moment to mention that rolltidefan (me, formerly rolltidefan4 or rtf4) and rolltidefan2 are separate people.
second, i agree with both of you to an extent. like rtf2 and badger, i'd say coaches with titles is a good starting point.
but i don't think it's a good end point either. sustaining success, or reemerging from a down period is another strong point. and just because a coach hasn't wont a title doesn't mean he isn't upper echelon. no better example than ksu's snyder, who is arguably one of the best ever.
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You guys seem to have a lot more respect for Miles than most of the LSU fans I've ever known. Most of them would tell you all his successes are due to Saban and all his shortcomings were his own doing. As a microcosm of that, every game LSU won was in spite of his coaching and every game LSU lost was because of his coaching. My dad swears that Miles only succeeded because of the strong program Saban left him with, and the historic loss to MSU Saturday was because O is having to deal with the mess Miles left him (10-3 and a talented roster is a mess). I'd have to say he's more the rule than the exception.
I don't know how to argue with that, but you can't deny it is a neat bit of mental gymnastics wherein you create a scenario where your opinion about him can't be wrong.
I heard clips of callers to an Ohio State radio talk show after the OU loss and those idgits were calling for Urban to be fired. Maybe all fans are nuts.
miles had his issues and i'd be very hesitant to put him at the top with saban, meyer, etc. but he's also far from the 1 hit wonders like chizik and coker (and perhaps malzahn if he doesn't turn it around soon).
lsu was still a power almost all of his tenure, and that's way to long to be just saban left overs. and his recruiting was on par with everyone except maybe bama. he just struggled to adapt philosophy in a changing game.
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This crap is too confusing. I call for a RollTideFan Thunderdome. Two of you enter, one of you leaves.
Besides, it's just weird. It's like when TV shows or movies recast main characters and expect you to not to notice. Sorry, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, everybody noticed when Aunt Viv got 3 shades lighter and 50 lbs. heavier. Did the Dark Knight think it was cool to start with Katie Holmes and then swap her for Maggie Gyllenhaal like everything's normal?
Some dude comes up to me and says "I'm rolltidefan," I say "THE rolltidefan?" and he says in a Robert DeNiro voice "Yeah, sure, whatever, don't worry about it."
Nah bruh. Somebody's gonna get cut.
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Wow, 4 point win over UMass at home.......that's F-ed up.
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We know Afroman. The Vols are very underwhelming. Butch ball is Vandy level ball. We are better than we were when he took over for Dooley but damn. 5 top 15 classes later and we are this damn pathetic. And I wasted good money to watch that shit live today.
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yup... back on topic:
I watched oSu and TCU tangle today... those are two very well coached teams. Being D minded, I especially appreciated TCU's ability to shut down the oSu assault.
but i wondered while watching: when is the last time either of those teams had a top ten class?
I know the answer, and i bet y'all do too.
the D is where the D is supposed to be (TCU's AND oSu's) which tells me the scheme is good. The O's run routes to precision, and the OLine on both teams is capable of opening lanes for the backs.
UT can't do that. They straight up struggle in every aspect of the game. I wager the majority of their points come when they get the opposing D almost to sleep.
Defensively, UT plays when they want to- but only when they want to. there is nothing- notta- zilch disguised with their sets making blocks easy to set-up. then, every once in a while they apply their talent and pressure the O somewhere.
I'd like to think this is exaggerated but it isn't. it's straight up truth.
121 is a bad team and poorly coached.
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Brady Hoke won 11 games in his fist season at Michigan and posted a 31-20 record. He got fired after winning 5 games in 2014. Could he have turned it around? We'll never know.
Lloyd Carr won 9 games in his last season at Michigan, and 11 the year before. The fewest he won in a season was 7. I'm not sure why they pushed him out.
Hoke was in over his head, lost the team, and needed to be fired. Carr was not pushed out. Carr tried to retire after the 2006 season and AD Martin talked him into another year.
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Your is one of many different accounts for what took place in that odd separation. All I know is what I've been told by friends I had that were familiar.
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A lot of fans seem rather fanatical about this sort of thing.
Huh.
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I will be surprised if Lane Kiffen who LSU should have hired and Bobby Petrino are not both in the SEC next year
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The earlier point about fear of making an error is interesting. There seems to be a subtle but important distinction between playing under control but all out and being afraid to play all out lest you get out of control.
I had a bad baseball coach in HS that was always criticizing everyone for anything. We had a talented team my senior year, but it was unpleasant to play baseball, which most of us had done since we were 6. He made us afraid to play because our focus was mostly on trying not to make some kind of error, so of course we made errors.
He had very complicated signs for HS, as if they would be stolen, a preindicator, the sign, and a post indicator. He would give the first two and then sort of brush at his belt for the third indicator for a steal attempt. If you stole, he'd chew you out. If you didn't steal, he'd chew you out. He got fired after that season.
I remember how glad we all were to lose our final game and be done with it. Looking back I wish I had quit the team.
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@Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) , i just read an article yesterday which quoted CBJ as saying "we're working on plays that will set our offense up for success", and i cringed.... literally...
he's still doing it.... playing/coaching scared.
i don't know that he can change either that or the mentality/culture of this on that team it's existed so long and is part of his (CBJ's) identity... if his seat is as hot as it sounds like it is, maybe just maybe he'll say "eff it boys- let's have some fun" which will result in an epiphany for him and his career...
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He seems so far in the hole right now that he has few if any real options.
The team may be in factions, and not a team in any real sense. He's just trying to find words to say to the media that are banal.
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i hate it for the guy- he has his game together, except for the game part. sounds crazy, but it appears to be true to me.
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So....can I cue up the Jon Gruden rumors, then?
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I think Vegas odds have him at 10k:1, and tied with Peyton Manning in that regard, to be HC@UT... they have Kelly leading I think it is, and Tee Martin something like third or fourth on the list. I think Les Miles was like 7th or 8th.
turns out Kelly may have disqualified himself with some of the recruiting tactics employed at Oregon... so, there is that...
..... and I ain't makin' none of that^ up, either.
edit:
Check that... it wasn't Gruden tied with Peyton, it was Peyton tied with Lame Kitten instead... Gruden is below that, with odds of 20k:1. Bob Stoops was around 700:1 and TMartin and LMiles were bracketing him- Miles @ 1k:1... .
these are just odds, obviously- but they're hilarious nonetheless.
it goes:
Kelly
Brohm
Petrino
Stoops
TMartin
Miles
boy, those folks on that hill sure are sure of themselves, are't they?
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Might could get Lane Kiffin, I'm sure Vols would welcome him back, right?
He might even bring Orgeron with him.
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So.. Done now?
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Florida's offense is broken, but UT's is worse. And again, UT ran 3 plays at the end of the game from inside the 5, none were runs by Kelly. I get passing the ball with 9 seconds. But with 4, you figure its the last play run or pass.
UT had 8 total yards in the 2nd half before that last drive vs prevent D. Ouch. Vols go to Bama next week - starting 0-4 in the SEC looks certain. Book it!
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I figure he's out by Monday. Such a shame. He's good every day of the week but Saturday.
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I figure he's out by Monday. Such a shame. He's good every day of the week but Saturday.
Depending on the how the buyout is worded he may be a lame duck until minutes after the Vandy game
I hope to salvage some of the recruiting class they can name some one great quick
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Is there a reason to fire him midseason? It's not as if another coach can really rescue anything IMHO.
I'd keep him until January especially if that saves money.
What is the downside? Lost attendance? Recruiting?
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there is no reason to fire him mid-season, no... i'm just speaking of what i 'think' they'll do,
Bama, LSU, UK, Mizzou, Vandy... they're all almost certain losses if he's fired... they're almost certain WITH him... they like excuses. the entitled bunch who drop lots of coin to be recognized as affiliated with the program will lean on the administration, and CBJ likely being a lame duck already, will rest the rest of this season on the outcome of that pressure.. fair or not...
i like CBJ- i was only a little bit tongue in cheek when i said he just needs to be coached up. hire a staff of advisers to come in and advise- coach the coach.... it would be cheaper, and would also allow them to get a big name to spark the program and retain recruits- and in all seriousness, CBJ may actually learn a thing or two about whatever it is that is failing him.
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If his coaching style based on negativity he's not a good coach no matter what unless he somehow changes spots.
I would keep him on (not just because I'm a Dawg fan) until January. The risk is that somehow the Vols pull out some wins and win a minor bowl game.
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Plus, UT would be at risk of losing out as Champions of Life without Jones at the helm.
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How has it worked in the past for teams that fire their coach midseason?
My very hazy memory is it means the season is pretty much for naught, but then, it would be for naught already.
The Vol schedule is somewhat manageable after next week (which will be bad, very very bad):
@ UK - plausible win (4-4)
USM - call it a win
Mizzou - call it a win, but it might not be (6-4, bowl eligible)
LSU - 6-5, though that could go either way
Vandy - call it a win, 7-5.
Imagine they find some life at Alabama, and then win 4 of those 5 remaining games to go 7-5, however improbable that seems. Would that save CBJ at all? They do need to score the odd TD from time to time.
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if the man lost the conservative BS and played the game without concern for "setting my kids up for success", they would play against anyone in the SEC and come out on top at least one out of two (except Bama)... it's not the team.
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How has it worked in the past for teams that fire their coach midseason?
My very hazy memory is it means the season is pretty much for naught, but then, it would be for naught already.
The Vol schedule is somewhat manageable after next week (which will be bad, very very bad):
@ UK - plausible win (4-4)
USM - call it a win
Mizzou - call it a win, but it might not be (6-4, bowl eligible)
LSU - 6-5, though that could go either way
Vandy - call it a win, 7-5.
Imagine they find some life at Alabama, and then win 4 of those 5 remaining games to go 7-5, however improbable that seems. Would that save CBJ at all? They do need to score the odd TD from time to time.
ya know, Cincy... this is a good question. I'll answer like this:
My daughter, when she was two'ish, wanted something off a shelf... she couldn't reach it... so, she drug a chair over to it and still couldn't. i was watching, and refused to intervene- actually stopped my wife from doing so... I wanted to see her reason through it... she pulled the barbie jeep like little pickup truck in front of it and put the chair in the bed- at what point i told her "that's not a good idea"- she paused and kept going... she still couldn't reach it... so, she walked away. I thought she'd lost interest until she returned with her little plastic stool she uses in the bathroom to brush her teeth.. she put that atop the chair, which was in the bed of the barbie-jeep-like pickup truck, and then climbed up it like some sort of absurd ladder... all the while i'm struggling not to intervene... my thinking: "some lessons need to be learned the hard way"...
damn it... wouldn't you know she was successful? what that means is she'll now have to fail a few times to undo what she did (in her head)... i don't know if that's good or bad... i'm leaning toward bad because i'm a pessimist and super careful where my kid is involved, but at some level i'm proud of her.
anyway... I think it was 93 or so- Majors was out sick at UT and Fulmer took over- and never gave the key's back... that is sorta UT's "absurd ladder" moment... they also cut Fulmer mid season, but let him stick around until after the last home game- that one didn't work out so well. it's happened that fresh blood mid season has worked though i can't pull any statistics together to prove it, but i don't think that is the goal- the goal, by my reckoning, is to make a big fat excuse for a washed season. it's a cowards exit.
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As I see it, the timing on firing CBJ hinges on a few things:
1. This season. Well, not really. Even a 7-5 finish doesn't help much at all (though many of us expected about that).
2. Recruiting. I don't know where this stands though I saw news that one CB decommitted. I don't know if a new coach now or in January impacts that either way.
3. Money - the buy out impact.
4. The chance the Vols turn it around and go 8-5 and some decide to keep CBJ around another season.
Anything else? I think the largest factor is recruiting, but I don't know how best to manage that.
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Plus, UT would be at risk of losing out as Champions of Life without Jones at the helm.
Tennessee lost the trophy of Champions of Life to Florida, who then ceded it to LSU, whose loss to Troy was so bad the Trojans are able to retroactively claim it. Troy then lost their next game, so transitively speaking, South Alabama are the current Champions of Life.
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Tennessee
Alabama -36.5
Helluva line....
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Yeah, we were chatting on another site about that line and whether Tennessee had been that much of a dog EVER since they started with the lines. And I'd take Bama to win by at least 40 myself.
It's going to get ugly barring something incredible. I believe Saban historically doesn't exactly take his foot off the gas, but he does play his 2s and 3s heavily in a blow out.
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I've been super busy this week with work, which has taken a lot of focus of the game and the site..... but the hordes of bama fans and knowing I'm a Tennessee fan has kept me fully aware of the third saturday...
What bothers me most is all the bandwagon bama fans. They're everywhere and claim to always have been a fan, even though I can see the remnants of Clemson stickers on their vehicles. Grrrrr...
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Do Vol fans watch this on TV? For how long?
Do you look for positive signs somewhere?
I think CBJ is going to last out the season.
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I think CBJ is gone already... dead man walking no matter what, and announced as early as end of game. Gruden will be head coach. Madden will be assistant. A massive volunteer force of coaches and assistant.... eh... blah... I don't even feel like joking abput it. I like CBJ, he's done the program a service he won't be paid back for, bit only because that one thing he's apparently incapable of, and that is winning.
I'll watch. Beginning to end. I am and always will be a UT fan, no matter the weather.
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Do Vol fans watch this on TV? For how long?
Do you look for positive signs somewhere?
I think CBJ is going to last out the season.
I watched only because I am a glutton for punishment.
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Well I mean, it wasn't anything unexpected was it? Aside from the long pick-6 and double middle-finger thing, they both 'were who we thought they were'.