Add Will Grier and Yodney Cajuste from WVU to the list.Wow
When you join a team, you play for the team. Period.Then it's for teammate to be upset by, not third party observers whose sense of propriety is offended.
The selfishness displayed by these kids is beyond further comment.
If I’m an NFL vet and my team drafts Grier, I’m making him wear WV’s bowl game t-shirt to every TV interview. You’re the QB, man!I once went to a Camping World Bowl. I wish I'd sat that one out.
Then it's for teammate to be upset by, not third party observers whose sense of propriety is offended.It is a joke, and I use it a lot. My youngest is getting married on July 5th next year. The nerve!!
People have a chance to not risk many thousands of dollars for the sake of entertaining others. They sometimes take it. (I'd point out the note you had about boating and life events, but I think that was a joke)
I once went to a Camping World Bowl. I wish I'd sat that one out.You made a bad decision. I hope you didn't pay for the ticket at least. :57:
I can tell you that missing a game, for any reason, was not tolerated or allowed when I grew up. I also carried this with me to when I raised my own. If you join a team, you play for the team. There is no excuse (unless hospitalized or attending a funeral or wedding).But you see how that decision for an ordinary athlete at an ordinary playing level is obviously not the same thing, right? And recognizing that, you can't promise that you would have played "no matter what" if you were a college player in, say, Rashan Gary's situation, on the verge of being a millionaire in a game of vanishing significance, not too injured to play but not 100% either.
It happens all the time.I think that either you aren't being honest with yourself or you aren't noticing the abstract limits of the analogy -- that it is strictly impossible to GUARANTEE that both clients are as happy as they want. That either ONLY the prospective $10MM client will get that guarantee or ONLY the current, smaller client will get it. Guaranteeing it to both is not possible.
I (and my team) work more hours to make it happen. Every client "thinks" they are my only client, and they are treated equally. That's how it works.
Get it done. You play the "game" with the "team" you signed up for. Whatever it takes. No excuses.
No, I don't. There is no choice in the matter.
You have to pick ONE.
Deandre Baker is going to play in the Sugar Bowl.Bravo. Good teammate.
https://247sports.com/college/georgia/Article/Bulldogs-Deandre-Baker-will-play-in-Sugar-Bowl-vs-Texas-Longhorns-125946650/
No, I don't. There is no choice in the matter.Unless you think that the players who get injured in bowl games chose to, you're deliberately ignoring the purpose of the exercise.
Or, you could make like Bosa and just not play at all. Why play in November? October?This is what cracks me up everyone talk about expansion,while more players are sitting.So I guess they won't find out who the best team is after all and just made the networks/programs more money
That's where this is headed. Just watch.
:96:
I havent researched this, but I'm 99% (invented percentage) that it's true: all these players who sit out bowl games are much more likely to have a career-ending injury driving around in their car than they are in one particular football game. Yet they drive, and if they chose not to drive, at least then they wouldn't be letting down their teammates.Ehh, that’s probably less than true.
Just sayin'.
It's a selfish move. There is no other way to explain it.Bo was miserably hyper-judgmental. Of course he'd make that mistake.
I wonder what Bo "the team the team the team" Schembechler would say. No, scratch that. I know what he'd say.
"I just pulled your scholarship, now get the F out of here!"
Don't confuse "mistake" with old-school. Was it a "mistake" to tell Frieder to pack his things?I'm in no position to say that was right or wrong. I can only say I really enjoy the telling of Frieder's firing. It's good drama. Cocky and finishes with an NC.
Nobody is forcing kids to play college football. It's a choice, and if a kid makes the choice to join a team, the team comes first.This comparison, it is odd.
Just as my son made a choice to join his team (The Marines), the team came first, above all.
T. E. A. M.
I fail to notice an "I" here.
This comparison, it is odd.Is it? How so? Choices are both.
Nobody is forcing kids to play college football. It's a choice, and if a kid makes the choice to join a team, the team comes first.Hmm. You've moved on too soon. I guess it doesn't interest you to counterargue why you think the Bo/Frieder analogy is not broken?
Just as my son made a choice to join his team (The Marines), the team came first, above all.
T. E. A. M.
I fail to notice an "I" here.
Is it? How so? Choices are both.For one, that choice wasn't the only available path for the market value you noticed in your son.
We need the NFL to make a minor league for kids who have no interest in Kolledge. That would solve a lot of stuff.With enough compensation, you're right. It could work. But without enough popularity, I am skeptical it would be able to pay the kids enough (maybe a multiple of 2 or 3 of the poverty line + community college or trade school education after football) to live up to its potential as a thing that could work.
Hmm. You've moved on too soon. I guess it doesn't interest you to counterargue why you think the Bo/Frieder analogy is not broken?It's not broken at all. If a person tells their manager they no longer want to be a part of the team, they're gone. It doesn't matter what the team is. It could be any operation.
It is a joke, and I use it a lot. My youngest is getting married on July 5th next year. The nerve!!It's not that big a deal, and the sun will still rise on those campuses, but I'm with you on this. It's a crappy thing to do to your teammates.
I can tell you that missing a game, for any reason, was not tolerated or allowed when I grew up. I also carried this with me to when I raised my own. If you join a team, you play for the team. There is no excuse (unless hospitalized or attending a funeral or wedding).
A guy like Will Grier knew a long time ago that he had a shot at the NFL. What's so special about skipping this particular game? Why not bag the season after it was clear that they weren't going make the playoffs, or win the conference? Why even come back for the season at all? Some of this still puzzles me.That's been my big question all along. For example, if Justin Layne is going to skip the bowl, why did he play against Rutgers, or even Nebraska for that matter? MSU was 6-4 going into Nebraska. They had already clinched a bowl bid, they weren't winning any title, so how are those games any more important than the bowl game? I have yet to hear a convincing answer other than "they aren't." So I'm assuming that's the next step? To me the only logical answer is "I get it, but I don't like it." Are high school kids going to start sitting out once they commit to programs? Is that going to worry college teams? I don't know the answer. I think the only thing that might change it is NFL teams saying they are marking that as a yellow flag as to how those players will treat a contract year for them
I think the only thing that might change it is NFL teams saying they are marking that as a yellow flag as to how those players will treat a contract year for themI was thinking about this too. If I were a GM, I would not select a player who quit on his team.
I was thinking about this too. If I were a GM, I would not select a player who quit on his team.The NFL could put an end to it by guaranteeing contracts both ways, like the other leagues do, but they don't, because they want to be able to rip up a contract when it no longer benefits them too.
I think the only thing that might change it is NFL teams saying they are marking that as a yellow flag as to how those players will treat a contract year for themProblem is they effed it up themselves by throwing guaranteed cash at free agents instead of implementing an incentive based pay scale
We need the NFL to make a minor league for kids who have no interest in Kolledge. That would solve a lot of stuff.Yup but some Universities will obviously take a financial hit(top 5-10 draws) but across the board that would obviously put a stop to it.The encroachment of NFL popularity timewise is a relatively recent thing.At it's inception both CFB and beisbol were both more popular and by no small margin either.Guys were staying in College because the NFL wasn't paying much better than a sustenance wage that had to be supplemented in the off season.Inadvertently both the NCAA/NFL created todays chaos thru their own wanton greed
I was thinking about this too. If I were a GM, I would not select a player who quit on his team.You would if he filled a hole in your team. We all would. Do you know how many NFL GMs manage with their heart? None, they've all been fired. The moment you take the less-talented guy, you've lost.
Meanwhile, I'd rather not call out these sitting players as exhibiting poor principles. But if a person insists on going that way, it's impossible without highlighting that the system they play in, that arbitrarily refuses their access to personal market value, has an equal and opposite lack of principles.Exactly. I don't like it at all. I personally, from an emotional perspective, consider them as quitting on their teammates. It grates at me.
It's not broken at all. If a person tells their manager they no longer want to be a part of the team, they're gone. It doesn't matter what the team is. It could be any operation.The analogy is broken because Frieder versus these students do not take on the same risk for their self-interested choices. That asymmetry makes it flawed as a thought experiment. Or, to use the cliche I was avoiding, "apples and oranges."
We need the NFL to make a minor league for kids who have no interest in Kolledge. That would solve a lot of stuff.To come back to this. It wouldn't solve anything completely, but letting anyone who's ready go to the NFL draft, be it after HS, one-and-done, etc., would at least diminish some of this.
It's a selfish move. There is no other way to explain it.My words do not need to be twisted and the lines here have nothing written in-between them. My point stands. My opinion and belief on this matter won't change.
I wonder what Bo "the team the team the team" Schembechler would say. No, scratch that. I know what he'd say.
"I just pulled your scholarship, now get the F out of here!"
Then it's not a good "business" to get into, right?I know you "got out" and made a great life for yourself and therefore will always have the mentality that it's 100% pure bootstraps and choices, but that doesn't mean you don't also underestimate your luck or how hard it is for others to be born into a poor family and escape. And the kids you're upset with, the ones who aren't making every correct decision, are largely low in socioeconomic standing. You're a good and impressive person. And they deserve more understanding than this. Both can be true.
My words do not need to be twisted and the lines here have nothing written in-between them. My point stands. My opinion and belief on this matter won't change.What was twisted? You are saying Frieder and these kids are the same kind of selfish. And I'm pointing out how broken your analogy is. Circumstances matter. It's asymmetric because of compensation. Apples and oranges. Maybe there really is a good analogy out there to apples and apples judge these kids. Go find it.
The system is set up to screw these kids out of money they have earned. So whatever they "owe" has already been paid.Precisely.
Your post doesn't have to take the boringly literal form "Frieder is to selfish as the players are to selfish" to be a comparison or analogy.Where did I ever say Frieder was selfish? Show me. Please.
I seriously doubt you didn't mean for comparison. And if you sincerely meant zero comparison between saying Frieder was selfish in one breath and in a separate breath saying the same of these players, then your Frieder inclusion was weird. Off topic.
Only a comparison makes it on topic.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you wrote it on purpose, coherently and on-topic.
Is it? How so? Choices are both.Because it compares life and death public service with semi-amateur sports. And while involvoking the marines adds gravitas, it’s just such a far cry from it.
It wasn't an analogy. That's your choice of how to described my comment - that they are the same kind of selfish. Shit, Frieder WANTED TO COACH MICHIGAN and he was told to go packing. Not even close to an analogy. Good Lord man.I think I agree it’s selfish, becuase it’s someone thinking about themselves. I could also cast playing as selfish, or our desire to highlight it with such irritation.
You responded to my comment with this:
"Bo was miserably hyper-judgmental. Of course he'd make that mistake."
To which I responded:
Don't confuse "mistake" with old-school. Was it a "mistake" to tell Frieder to pack his things?
You can choose to make this an analogy if you like. My post was simply in reference to how Bo Schembechler would respond to anyone not wanting to be on "the team" with him.
My point still stands. Sitting out a game is selfish.
Where did I ever say Frieder was selfish? Show me. Please.Like is said, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you wrote it with intention - coherently and on-topic.
The only reason I mentioned him was to show that Bo had no use for people on his team that didn't want to be there. End of story. Nothing between the lines. Nothing to twist. Nothing to doubt, even seriously.
All done I hope.
But I think you’re putting more weight on the word than I. You’re casting it as a moral failing, I see it as more part of he human condition. You see it as ugly, I see it as somewhat natural, a conservative instinct.That's very well distilled.
I suppose we won’t bridge that, but you know what, that’s OK.
It wasn't an analogy. That's your choice of how to described my comment - that they are the same kind of selfish. Shit, Frieder WANTED TO COACH MICHIGAN and he was told to go packing. Not even close to an analogy. Good Lord man.I think it is the "loaded" word selfish is the issue. I think a better word would be acting in self-interest. I know semantics, but still I think valid. And who can blame a kid for acting in their own self-interest particularly when there are potential life altering things involved.
You responded to my comment with this:
"Bo was miserably hyper-judgmental. Of course he'd make that mistake."
To which I responded:
Don't confuse "mistake" with old-school. Was it a "mistake" to tell Frieder to pack his things?
You can choose to make this an analogy if you like. My post was simply in reference to how Bo Schembechler would respond to anyone not wanting to be on "the team" with him.
My point still stands. Sitting out a game is selfish.
Solve it from both sides:then they will need additional bowl check
Let them be paid ... for the good of the team or the unit.
then they will need additional bowl checkThe don't need a salary. They just need the NCAA to say "you are allowed to collect money on your own in any legal way just like every other American."
or they will sit out waiting for the big money
money makes everything worse, not better
let the kids that love the game play
the kids that love the money can do something else - like sit out
While I don't disagree with allowing them to do that necessarily, I don't think it does anything to change this.I don't vigorously disagree but still do somewhat. Because that kind of CFB economy shifts the equation. At present this is their equation:
Well what about the Senior Bowl? Why not skip that, too? Might get hurt.I have no idea why those games still exist.
LeVeon Bell gave up $14 million guaranteed this year to avoid risking injury to cost him $40 million+I think you're underestimating the power of an extra $5-10K guaranteed versus a 1/1000 chance at losing millions.
If the players don't gain anything and the NFL doesn't view it as a red flag, I don't think a few thousand dollars to pitch used cars will change it. If any of those sponsorships are contingent on playing, maybe, but as it is they can take their money, and sit out and not risk their ability to attain greater riches.
I still ask the question of how the Redbox Bowl is a less meaningful game than the Rutgers game was, or Nebraska? So while I don't like this trend as a fan, I can't blame them, and don't get too worked up. What concerns me is that until someone can convince me that line exists, I do worry about the next step.
Well what about the Senior Bowl? Why not skip that, too? Might get hurt.That's why no one plays in that game unless they feel they are being severely undervalued by scouts and need one last opportunity to show out.
true, if Noah Fant is going to sit out the bowl game, why not also sit out the final big ten game vs Nebraska?Hell, with the way the bowl selections work now, they weren't even playing for that.
the only thing they were playing for that day was a better bowl game
I think you're underestimating the power of an extra $5-10K guaranteed versus a 1/1000 chance at losing millions.I don't get why they can't have both. Just because they got $10k why are they suddenly willing to risk millions for no gain, with no downside to missing? Unless it's some local car dealer/booster who doesn't so much want to have the kid as a pitchman, but as a way to pay a player, and makes the endorsement deal contingent on that. But I can't see those being the types of arrangements
Especially if we need to eat and pay December rent: It's in our nature to take that bet.
As for the line and next step: there probably is no line (except for those on the verge of graduating) and the next steps are obvious. But they can be opposed. I argue that market value economics can even oppose most bowl sit-outs and that it'd do even better to prevent season sit-outs.
they have had room & board taken care of for decades
Especially if we need to eat and pay December rent: It's in our nature to take that bet.
I think the high round draft picks are worth at least 5-10K per month in college. And that the world is dying to give it to them. (Again: Not as a university/AD salary but in terms of out on the streets and in terms of local endorsements, etc.Noah Fant has probably already signed with an agent and the first check was more than $10K
With that perspective it seems almost silly to wonder why they'd play. They'll play to keep their gravy train rolling. Realistically, the payments only derail if they sit. And it's a sure thing. The injury risk is probabilistic.
they have had room & board taken care of for decadesMost of them stop living in dorms after the first year and begin living in houses whose rent exceeds their standard room and board.
if they are done playing, the room & board is done
Noah Fant has probably already signed with an agent and the first check was more than $10KTrue. Embedded in my argument is also the idea that players want to play. Fant isn't sitting out or collecting from an agent because he stopped liking football. He's doing that because playing isn't worth it. All my posts are about making it worth it. And the answers are easy and cost the universities nothing directly.
Most of them stop living in dorms after the first year and begin living in houses whose rent exceeds their stipend.by their choice
by their choiceTrue. Also irrelevant. Unless your goal is to make people stop acting like people. My angle is different ("what's human nature predict for these players' decisions and how can we realistically make them want to choose to play?).
some live in places that are much less than their stipend
by their choice
True. Embedded in my argument is also the idea that players want to play. Fant isn't sitting out or collecting from an agent because he stopped liking football. He's doing that because playing isn't worth it. All my posts are about making it worth it. And the answers are easy and cost the universities nothing directly.what is it worth to the 3 guys invited to the Heisman ceremony?
what is it worth to the 3 guys invited to the Heisman ceremony?I think you missed the other posts on this. This dilemma isn't "how do we pay them millions in college so they stop worrying about their 1/1000 injury risk per game?"
especially if Haskins wants to come back and play another season - the loss could be worth 10's of millions
selling jerseys and autographs isn't going to cover it
I think the high round draft picks are worth at least 5-10K per month in college. And that the world is dying to give it to them. (Again: Not as a university/AD salary but in terms of out on the streets and in terms of local endorsements, etc.If the issue was guys quitting earlier, then maybe. What heavy train is stopping because they don't play in a bowl game, a couple months before entering the draft anyway. I don't think they would miss out on any money by skipping the bowl game anyway, and even if they would, players have already proven they've been willing to miss out on far more than a couple thousand bucks to pursue millions.
With that perspective it seems almost silly to wonder why they'd play. They'll play to keep their gravy train rolling. Realistically, the payments only derail if they sit. And it's a sure thing. The injury risk is probabilistic.
If the issue was guys quitting earlier, then maybe. What heavy train is stopping because they don't play in a bowl game, a couple months before entering the draft anyway. I don't think they would miss out on any money by skipping the bowl game anyway, and even if they would, players have already proven they've been willing to miss out on far more than a couple thousand bucks to pursue millions.Dollar handshakes in the streets and free meals around town are the easy examples. And it wouldn't be unusual if local endorsers had situations like these built into contracts and payment schedules.
I hate that this discussion ALWAYS goes into paying the players. ELA, you said it. A kid getting $10K to peddle used cars doesn't prevent him from sitting out. If the deal stipulates that the kid must play, well, that opens a whole different can.You greatly overestimate the value of what the players get relative to what they are worth. And the conversation goes here because that explains the phenomenon. It's the reason why players don't rampantly sit out even more dangerous NFL games to stay healthy. Because they're already earning a living for one (less vulnerable to financial ruin) and that train ends if they sit to avoid injury (have full incentive).
You play for the team and school you joined, period. The team that help you by catching or throwing a pass, a block, etc. The school that made you what you are, with support, elite training, special diets designed by professionals, etc. Not playing after receiving all of that, in addition to an education, is just selfish.
I agree it's self serving. I don't know if that's a bad thing. I don't have stronger moral opposition to this than I do to coaches jumping ship on kids they made promises to.Yes, humans are selfish, or act in their own self interest most of the time. There is nothing wrong with it inherently unless you harm other humans in doing that.
I just know as a fan I hate it. Which I suppose makes me selfish too, ha.
LeVeon Bell gave up $14 million guaranteed this year to avoid risking injury to cost him $40 million+Le'Veon also had a bit of an axe to grind. It was clear what he wanted: a long-term contract with guaranteed money. Pittsburgh doesn't have a history of doing much of that.
FYI I get really rankled about this from the players' perspective. The "Camping World" Bowl is run by Florida Citrus Sports. As far as I can tell, their existence is to run this game and the Citrus Bowl. Their stated mission is to:Fucking yup.
"Our vision is to become the bowl industry leader in generating economic and exposure impact, providing the best customer experience and to establish Orlando as the nation’s premier neutral site/venue for sports events."
Their board looks to be several Orlando businessmen. They have a staff of 28 fulltime employees. I googled their non-profit statement and found a website which stated their yearly revenue was 4.6 million dollars. They listed their CEO as working 10 hours a week and pulling a salary of 464K. Their CFO works 10 hours a week and make 157K. They have a "Chief Customer Officer" who works 8 hours a week and makes 146K.
How is this possible? How can someone work 10 hours a week and make nearly half a million dollars? IT'S BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY THE PLAYERS FOR THEIR WORK. Money is still being generated, it's just going to some other douchebag who didn't earn it.
another option.... a new break in FCS Div 1 football... Teams/conferences that want to pay players create a new division and basically become the minors for the NFL... not tied in the way MLB is tied, but rather, you're main purpose is to play football and get paid. School is secondary.It's definitely an option but more destructive/less clean (would involve every P5 conference splitting in pieces). It also pretends that the only way for players to be paid is for the ADs to cut checks. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it seemed as written ("...teams/conferences that want to pay the players...").
Others programs, who want academics first, can create their own division and TV contracts.
Without Iowa (or any other P5 school), Noah Fant is "worth" $_.His value without Iowa is certainly more than zero but I'll admit it's less than his worth with Iowa's fan base loving him. This is a shit argument, though. Because if the every Noah Fant skipped out on every Iowa and the playing level were lowered so that you or the average fit undergrad were to replace Noah on the roster, the value of Iowa's football program would bottom out.
Someone fill that in for me.
yes.. Schools cut the checks. Basically, it's a minor league affiliated with a college. It would also break conferences.But schools never need to cut checks for players to receive their full market value. Just let the players collect whatever money they can in meetings or on the street and they'll fully acquire their market value without a single member of the AD needing to lose his job or chop his bloated salary.
But at this point, I believe the payments are being made by many programs (boosters, not schools). Might as well formalize it and let the field become level.
His value without Iowa is certainly more than zero but I'll admit it's less than his worth with Iowa's fan base loving him. This is a shit argument, though. Because if the every Noah Fant skipped out on every Iowa and the playing level were lowered so that you or the average fit undergrad were could replace Noah on the roster, the value of Iowa's football program would bottom out.So you're telling me that college football would bottom out without players like Noah Fant or Rashan Gary? You do understand that about 2% of all FBS players get drafted each year, no? Last year there were 256 players taken in the NFL draft. That makes 192 players. There are 130 schools in FBS, and each has 85 scholarships to hand out. That's 11,050 players.
The current P5 players and programs depend on one other both ways but fair compensation only moves one way.
So you're telling me that college football would bottom out without players like Noah Fant or Rashan Gary? You do understand that about 2% of all FBS players get drafted each year, no? Last year there were 256 players taken in the NFL draft. That makes 192 players. There are 130 schools in FBS, and each has 85 scholarships to hand out. That's 11,050 players.The many, many labor disputes in professional sports gives a good indicator of what the players are worth. In the NFL that's a shade less than half. Iowa athletics brought in about 115 million bucks in revenue last year. So the math says about 55 million bucks should go to the athletes.
And you're calling mine a (bad) argument?
The many, many labor disputes in professional sports gives a good indicator of what the players are worth. In the NFL that's a shade less than half. Iowa athletics brought in about 115 million bucks in revenue last year. So the math says about 55 million bucks should go to the athletes.Iowa has 650 athletes in school. That comes to about $85K per year, per athlete.
Iowa has 650 athletes in school. That comes to about $85K per year, per athlete.Iowa's in state tuition is 8000 bucks. That adds up to 5.2 million bucks. Their budget list about 2 million each for "training services" and "academic and counseling." It's not clear what they are spending on room and board - probably not much but lets say 10 million. We get to about 20 million, which means Iowa is shorting its athletes 35 million in cash. (Actually 55 million in cash)
Seems to be a little less than what they are getting right now, with tuition, materials, room and board, nutrition, training, tutoring, travel, clothing and cost of attendance all factored in.
So, it's all good then.
Iowa has 650 athletes in school. That comes to about $85K per year, per athlete.I'm not sure you are being serious. "If we pay the football players then we also have to pay the swimmers and tennis players the same" is rarely a real argument. It's just a thing people say if they oppose paying the football players and want to grasp at every remaining straw before the conversation ends. Because that's not how capitalism works.
Seems to be a little less than what they are getting right now, with tuition, materials, room and board, nutrition, training, tutoring, travel, clothing and cost of attendance all factored in.
So, it's all good then.
Think about food, rent, clothing, etc. All the things I listed.Tell your employees that you will cut their pay by 35K and instead provide personal training and get back to me on how they feel about that
Then think about what a tutor costs. After that, think about what a training program costs.
I pay $65/hour for a trainer. If I trained 2 hours per day, 5 days per week, that would cost $34K per year.
Tell your employees that you will cut their pay by 35K and instead provide personal training and get back to me on how they feel about thatMy employees don't require personal training to perform their craft, so that argument is silly. I do provide up to $50/month for gym membership though.
So you're telling me that college football would bottom out without players like Noah Fant or Rashan Gary? You do understand that about 2% of all FBS players get drafted each year, no? Last year there were 256 players taken in the NFL draft. That makes 192 players. There are 130 schools in FBS, and each has 85 scholarships to hand out. That's 11,050 players.I'm telling you that if P5 football were to have zero NFL or maybe NFL athletes, and the product quality were lowered to Go5 or Ivy level, the market value for P5 revenue sports would plummet. It's takes no leap of faith to say that current television contracts and ticket sales would not survive in that environment.
And you're calling mine a (bad) argument?
The many, many labor disputes in professional sports gives a good indicator of what the players are worth. In the NFL that's a shade less than half. Iowa athletics brought in about 115 million bucks in revenue last year. So the math says about 55 million bucks should go to the athletes.This is an important post, in terms of anchoring us with real world numbers. Taking those numbers (something between $35MM and $55MM) and dividing by scholarship football (85) and basketball (13) players gives you something between $357,000 and $561,000, on average, per Iowa revenue athlete.
This is an important post, in terms of anchoring us with real world numbers.Those are not even close to real world numbers.
I don't for a minute believe that true fans of college football would back away from the games if the NFL had a minor league and took 250 players away from the college game every year. True fans cheer for the helmet and jersey, not the specific players.Our fanbases are millions more massive than our alumni bases. If our product is Ivy quality, our fan bases will be our alumni bases.
Those are not even close to real world numbers.Tell that to the lawyers involved in professional sports labor disputes.
I don't for a minute believe that true fans of college football would back away from the games if the NFL had a minor league and took 250 players away from the college game every year. True fans cheer for the helmet and jersey, not the specific players.Most sports fans watch sports to fawn over great athletes. I'm the rare breed that watches sports because I like to get behind the local teams and root for them to win.
Most sports fans watch sports to fawn over great athletes. I'm the rare breed that watches sports because I like to get behind the local teams and root for them to win.You're less of a rare breed than you think, and I beg to differ with the first sentence. Sure, you're going to have those fans, and maybe those fans will simply wait for the minor league kid to get to the NFL to fawn, instead of fawning over an 18 y/o kid (kinda creepy, no??).
Tell that to the lawyers involved in professional sports labor disputes.I don't care to discuss professional sports labor disputes, on a college football message board topic involving college athletes. There is enough selfishness in professional sports already, thank you.
I don't for a minute believe that true fans of college football would back away from the games if the NFL had a minor league and took 250 players away from the college game every year. True fans cheer for the helmet and jersey, not the specific players.Couldn’t disagree with you more.
You're less of a rare breed than you think, and I beg to differ with the first sentence. Sure, you're going to have those fans, and maybe those fans will simply wait for the minor league kid to get to the NFL to fawn, instead of fawning over an 18 y/o kid (kinda creepy, no??).Michigan didn’t have Patterson last year. They were pretty damn bad without him.
Taking 250 kids out of the college game will not dilute it very much at all. I mean, we're talking 2 out of 100. So, from, say, Michigan, you're talking about taking away Gary and Patterson. Think about that for a minute. Michigan would still be pretty good, no?
You're less of a rare breed than you think, and I beg to differ with the first sentence. Sure, you're going to have those fans, and maybe those fans will simply wait for the minor league kid to get to the NFL to fawn, instead of fawning over an 18 y/o kid (kinda creepy, no??).We are talking about 32 minor league teams that would pull players away from all of the top teams the teams that people actually watch.
Taking 250 kids out of the college game will not dilute it very much at all. I mean, we're talking 2 out of 100. So, from, say, Michigan, you're talking about taking away Gary and Patterson. Think about that for a minute. Michigan would still be pretty good, no?
Most sports fans watch sports to fawn over great athletes. I'm the rare breed that watches sports because I like to get behind the local teams and root for them to win.Everyone on this board agrees with you.
People like me would enjoy it because I could go watch the games in the Shoe without the gigantic crowd that typically keeps me at bay. The road games would no longer be televised, so that would kind of suck.
They'd probably start streaming the games on their website like D3 schools do, but those aren't exactly ESPN productions. There's like one camera in the press box, and if you are lucky there might be a couple of students calling the game.
Everyone on this board agrees with you.You have to be a pretty die hard CFB fan to post on CFB message boards. We aren't exactly a slice of the average fandom.
Otherwise they wouldn't prefer the second highest level of football available.
You're less of a rare breed than you think, and I beg to differ with the first sentence. Sure, you're going to have those fans, and maybe those fans will simply wait for the minor league kid to get to the NFL to fawn, instead of fawning over an 18 y/o kid (kinda creepy, no??).But that's not what began this side conversation. This conversation began with your incredulity that P5-quality players and P5 teams need one another reciprocally.
Taking 250 kids out of the college game will not dilute it very much at all. I mean, we're talking 2 out of 100. So, from, say, Michigan, you're talking about taking away Gary and Patterson. Think about that for a minute. Michigan would still be pretty good, no?
You have to be a pretty die hard CFB fan to post on CFB message boards. We aren't exactly a slice of the average fandom.It's true. Zero of my Michigan friends** post on Michigan boards. When we see each other, I sincerely doubt they even watch half the games, though that's a whole other matter.
Canada has a pro football league, but they don't even play on Sundays because they can't compete with the NFL even in their own markets. The people that post on the CFL message board don't particularly give a crap about the NFL. But those are the die hards. Not the average "football fans"
There might be enough of us around to keep it on TV for a few decades perhaps, but eventually we will age out and be replaced with a generation that views the Big Ten in the same manner as we view a Conference from D3-FCS.Aging out is a worthy thing to point out. I'd argue the A.D.'s would lose significant revenue immediately if we enacted some scheme that fully drained their rosters and they refilled with Go5 or sub-Go5 level players. But we do have to acknowledge that badge is right that based on habits and traditions, many millions of us would keep watching anyway. Fewer millions than before, but many all the same. Decades later, however, that will have died down to sub-alumni association levels of intense interest. Because of course, not every Michigan or OSU graduate actually cares about CFB. And in those decades, we'd fail to recruit new non-grads as well.
I don't for a minute believe that true fans of college football would back away from the games if the NFL had a minor league and took 250 players away from the college game every year. True fans cheer for the helmet and jersey, not the specific players.1. If so, then I imagine fans would also not care if the players get some cash.
I'm thinking that the resident moderator should change the title of this thread.Those guys are lax. And, asleep at the wheel, apparently.
I'm also thinking of offering a course on business economics and management. The other thing I'm thinking is talking about how "we" got to talking about this stuff. Helmet schools are guilty of paying HUGE money for coaching.
Iowa too. I think it may have started there, with Kaptain Kirk's $4MIL bullet-proof contract after he went undefeated (sans ISU) and got hammered by Pete's highly paid USC "amateur" guys.
1. If so, then I imagine fans would also not care if the players get some cash.HAH!
2. Their is a delusion here that the only players who deserve money are those good enough to play professionally. Jim Tressel ran into issues at Youngstown State involving players getting paid, and none of them were going to be in the NFL. I spent my undergrad at Miami of Ohio and saw players working out ways to get paid, and they also were not NFL prospects. The issue is college football itself, and every player involved, is a product that is being marketed and sold. Every single player on Wisconsin and Iowa could make more money absent the amateurism rules, because they are part of a valuable product. This idea that only college administrators and bowl game CEO's should profit off of the kids' work is, to me, really skeezy.No doubt about that. That common misconception also sidesteps the fact that the pre-NFLers aren't the ones whose lacking compensation is most tragic. It's the "role players." If it weren't for the too small/too slow role players being screwed, threads like these would be scarce because "let's give pre-multimillionaires a few hundred thousand beforehand" is a shit rallying cry.
I'm thinking that the resident moderator should change the title of this thread.(1) We're still on topic ... mostly. More than 90% of this is about players sitting out or the explanation for their motivations. There's no way to have that conversation completely without including their compensation.
I'm also thinking of offering a course on business economics and management. The other thing I'm thinking is talking about how "we" got to talking about this stuff. Helmet schools are guilty of paying HUGE money for coaching.
Iowa too. I think it may have started there, with Kaptain Kirk's $4MIL bullet-proof contract after he went undefeated (sans ISU) and got hammered by Pete's highly paid USC "amateur" guys.
I have no idea why those games still exist.Senior Bowl:
(1) We're still on topic ... mostly. .Not. Even. Close.
My employees don't require personal training to perform their craft, so that argument is silly. I do provide up to $50/month for gym membership though.We’re so off topic, but my last job did that, and man was it a nice touch.
Not. Even. Close."The players sit out because it isn't worth the risk, which is about money."
If someone offered Noah Fant $500K to finish his senior season including a bowl game, would it be worth the risk?Insurance companies make their money by saying yes to questions like that. Always taking the guaranteed decent money at the risk of very rarely losing big. Of course, part of this is personal/emotional, so I can't be 100% sure players would treat it the same way, but that's part of the point. There's nothing unprincipled or (net) unfair about doing the experiment and seeing how they would respond.
I do provide up to $50/month for gym membership though.I'd rather stop for a splash at the local wateringhole.But it would prolly exceed that
Letting kids on a lower middle class or pre-poverty line trajectory collect the few hundred thousand they've already proven they deserve, well that's a completely other thing.I get that but the NFL is in that business.Fairly certain that it is not in a University Charter to advance a non-scholastic grid iron career
People want to watch bonafide stars like Johnny Manzel and Tim Tebow and semi-pro teams like Bama and Ohio State. You don’t have the elite future NFL players in the sport the ratings would fall off a cliff and the next go round of tv contract negotiations all the networks would tell the P5 conferences to go F themselves.Well it's gotten to the point the NFL is going to have to pony up one way or another to develop that talent.I don't think many here realize that University athletic departments by and large are loosing money.There are God knows how many men's and women's sports that have to be funded - those expenses are staggering.There are only 8-9-10 Programs that pocket money after all the other non-revenue generating sports are covered.Universities using FB windfall to cover the cost of tennis,golf,fencing,field hockey,water polo,horseshoes,hand grenade's etc,etc,etc,
I get that but the NFL is in that business.Fairly certain that it is not in a University Charter to advance a non-scholastic grid iron careerIt's also already the case that P5 universities and ADs are financially insulated from one another and a bit of a joke that the ADs get the universities' tax exempt status anyway. Revenue sports aren't just business. They are BIG business.
It's also already the case that P5 universities and ADs are financially insulated from one another and a bit of a joke that the ADs get the universities' tax exempt status anyway. Revenue sports aren't just business. They are BIG business.At this point it's a bit hilarious that all of these large universities get tax exempt status period. UM just bought the land that had always been the lumber store we went to for like $24 million. They wrote a big check, and now 6.1 acres comes off the property tax ledger for the city.
Sports are about tribalism. Most people cheer for their tribe and care much less about how good their tribe is. Though it is always easier to cheer for a winning tribe.This is the truth. Most people I know are fans of a team, a jersey, etc. not for the quality of the product. Would I be happy if Ohio State suddenly became bad? of course not. Would I stop watching? No. As a life long fan of the Browns, too young to remember the last championship, I have never stopped rooting and watching them for the last 52 years in spite of how bad they have been since 1999.
A tax exempt entity can of course make huge profits (at least in theory). That status relates more to how the money is to be spent than that the entity is "nonprofit", which is usually misunderstood.No I get that.
A thing I dislike is for some tax exempt entity to pay CEOs et al. huge sums (on which they pay income taxes of course). I'd prefer to see some kind of limit on that as a function of the size of the entity.
At the risk of putting the thread back on topic, Jones says he's playing.Jones who?
that's the attitude I would expect from these young menYep. People of good character do not turn their backs on their responsibilities. When you make a commitment, you honor it, and if you back out of that, you're selfish. It's black and white.
Yep. People of good character do not turn their backs on their responsibilities. When you make a commitment, you honor it, and if you back out of that, you're selfish. It's black and white.Black and white? To steal a line from you, that’s some bull jive.
agents are not people of good characterIn many cases, That’s true. But this sport is built on bad characters, from the NCAA structure at the top to the fans at the bottom.
In many cases, That’s true. But this sport is built on bad characters, from the NCAA structure at the top to the fans at the bottom.I'm not sure this is black or white either
I'm not sure this is black or white eitherIt's not.
some gray thereTh psychology of that kind of thing is always interesting.
some room between mom gets a Mercedes and mom gets enough to eat to survive
From RS Sophomore Tyler Biadasz:This is nice, a man made a choice about his life. His choice to make. Good on him.
Should Biadasz decide to enter the 2019 NFL Draft before the Pinstripe Bowl, sitting out his final collegiate game isn't an option.
"I want to play one more game with these guys," he said. "I've done too much stuff to not play with this group."
Real slim, yes. Probably should stay off that motor scooter too, eh?
but, risk of injury is real
Black and white? To steal a line from you, that’s some bull jive.It's my opinion and belief here - not everyone likes it. There is no gray, or bulljive.
Responsibilities go beyond a team. You’re responsible to your family. “Mom, I know I said I’d provide for you, but I owed it to go play with my friends one more time. It was the Pinstripe Bowl.”
It’s at the very least complicated. Maybe it’s selfish to want to not jeopardize several hundred thousand dollars. Maybe a few million, especially when that’s not something you’ve been close to in your life.
On the plus side, we know coaches are not people of good charecter. We got that settled at least.
It's my opinion and belief here - not everyone likes it. There is no gray, or bulljive.Fair enough.
Fair enough.I never said things can't be gray. I simply said that my opinion and belief on the subtopic at hand is black and white.
So we can say, it's black and white, Paul Chryst is a man of low character. College football is built on men of low character, and only the athletes can save it. We can also say putting family ahead of other things, sometimes a sign of low character.
I know you'll tell me this is saying things you did not, but when things can't be gray, that's a thing that happens. Things lack flex.
I saw mention today of the Senior Bowl. I was also seeing various and sundry games for HS players out there, Army AA and whatnot. Is the injury potential less in these games?No. A player could get injured in any game. Or any practice. Or any workout. Or on any icy street walking to class.
I never said things can't be gray. I simply said that my opinion and belief on the subtopic at hand is black and white.Fair enough
I happen to believe that Paul Chryst is a man of high character, by the way, but I could be wrong on that. There have been things in the past that didn't have a good look.
I saw mention today of the Senior Bowl. I was also seeing various and sundry games for HS players out there, Army AA and whatnot. Is the injury potential less in these games?Well, these are kind of two different scenarios.
The high school all-star games don’t really have a direct effect on much. If I tear my ACL in that, there is a slim chance I will lose my scholarship, but if I’m good Enough to play in one, it’s very slim.Also note that not participating in either the high-school all-star games nor the senior bowl has any impact on your teammates. This is not choosing to play a game with the guys in the locker room that you've gone to war with for the entirety of spring practice, summer workouts, and a grueling season.
The senior bowl is more interesting. The important part of that event is really the practices. I’m guessing if someone had really big injury worries, they probably feign some kind of minor bump or bruise. There is also a good chance they will play many fewer snaps in the senior bowl as compared to actual bowl.
Justin Layne officially skipping the bowl game for MSUThank goodness he played in that Rutgers game.
Maybe bowl games are just glorified spring games.Players don't sit out Spring games.
Players don't sit out Spring games.Players sit out the Spring game all the time
Players sit out the Spring game all the timeIf injured, or if the coaches decide to sit them, yes. It's not their own decision, and if it was, they'd be gone anyway.
I'm not sure i'd burn a redshirt for a bowl gameI would, if my team needed me.
I'm not sure i'd burn a redshirt for a bowl gameMD said he'd leave it up to the player and his family. Good chance he's not sticking around for a 5th year anyway. He was better than Layne, both last year and this, when he was actually playing.
I'm not sure i'd burn a redshirt for a bowl gameseems foolish
I'm not sure i'd burn a redshirt for a bowl gameAs a kid? Or a coach?
If injured, or if the coaches decide to sit them, yes. It's not their own decision, and if it was, they'd be gone anyway.That's because the universities don't make much money on spring games
Yep. People of good character do not turn their backs on their responsibilities. When you make a commitment, you honor it, and if you back out of that, you're selfish. It's black and white.Likely the best post on the entire forum.
Likely the best post on the entire forum.As long as this holds true, we argree almost every coach is not a person of good charecter. Glad that’s black and white.
As long as this holds true, we argree almost every coach is not a person of good charecter. Glad that’s black and white.I think it's just a matter of coaches having to take chances on kids. They don't want to, and they can be successful up to a point without doing it, but you can't go 7-5 every year with nice boys and keep your job. So you start taking the kids who seem redeemable or the ones that are good at hiding their warts, then get blindsided by their behaviors. Then you act wise to it all and try to go with the non-violent offenders who "only" smoke weed and have 2 kids, etc etc.
I think it's just a matter of coaches having to take chances on kids. They don't want to, and they can be successful up to a point without doing it, but you can't go 7-5 every year with nice boys and keep your job. So you start taking the kids who seem redeemable or the ones that are good at hiding their warts, then get blindsided by their behaviors. Then you act wise to it all and try to go with the non-violent offenders who "only" smoke weed and have 2 kids, etc etc.I meant because many abandon their teams for the bowls. Their responsibilities break before the kids’. Sometimes they even raid their former coaching staffs.
Sign innocent kids who try real hard and lose your job in 2 years, move down 2 levels and go 10-2 every year at Valdosta State, or do what everyone else does and try to win something special before it all goes to hell.