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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on December 03, 2018, 10:48:44 PM

Title: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 03, 2018, 10:48:44 PM
TE Noah Fant - Iowa
DT Rashan Gary - Michigan
WR Kelvin Harmon - NC State
WR N'Keal Harry - Arizona St
RB Justice Hill - Oklahoma St
DT Ed Oliver - Houston
WR Deebo Samuel - South Carolina
CB Greedy Williams - LSU
G   Larry Williams - Oklahoma St



Add to the list if you know of others.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 03, 2018, 10:51:47 PM
Excluding or including injury? On the fence about including Bosa.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MarqHusker on December 03, 2018, 11:34:54 PM
will this list be longer than the list of players who are suspended or ruled ineligible?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Kris60 on December 08, 2018, 10:45:05 AM
Add Will Grier and Yodney Cajuste from WVU to the list.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 08, 2018, 10:57:22 AM
When you join a team, you play for the team. Period.


The selfishness displayed by these kids is beyond further comment.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 08, 2018, 11:10:24 AM
Add Will Grier and Yodney Cajuste from WVU to the list.
Wow
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 08, 2018, 11:11:51 AM
If I’m an NFL vet and my team drafts Grier, I’m making him wear WV’s bowl game t-shirt to every TV interview.  You’re the QB, man!
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 08, 2018, 12:18:10 PM
When you join a team, you play for the team. Period.


The selfishness displayed by these kids is beyond further comment.
Then it's for teammate to be upset by, not third party observers whose sense of propriety is offended. 
People have a chance to not risk many thousands of dollars for the sake of entertaining others. They sometimes take it. (I'd point out the note you had about boating and life events, but I think that was a joke)
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 08, 2018, 12:19:26 PM
If I’m an NFL vet and my team drafts Grier, I’m making him wear WV’s bowl game t-shirt to every TV interview.  You’re the QB, man!
I once went to a Camping World Bowl. I wish I'd sat that one out. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 08, 2018, 12:31:15 PM
Then it's for teammate to be upset by, not third party observers whose sense of propriety is offended.
People have a chance to not risk many thousands of dollars for the sake of entertaining others. They sometimes take it. (I'd point out the note you had about boating and life events, but I think that was a joke)
It is a joke, and I use it a lot. My youngest is getting married on July 5th next year. The nerve!!

I can tell you that missing a game, for any reason, was not tolerated or allowed when I grew up. I also carried this with me to when I raised my own. If you join a team, you play for the team. There is no excuse (unless hospitalized or attending a funeral or wedding).
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 08, 2018, 12:32:58 PM
I once went to a Camping World Bowl. I wish I'd sat that one out.
You made a bad decision. I hope you didn't pay for the ticket at least. :57:
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 08, 2018, 12:41:22 PM
(https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/36969625_10156093909859998_8758142081295187968_n.png?_nc_cat=103&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=ed5c03aa4994d2669392675ff06794f6&oe=5CB15B08)
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 08, 2018, 03:07:35 PM
I can tell you that missing a game, for any reason, was not tolerated or allowed when I grew up. I also carried this with me to when I raised my own. If you join a team, you play for the team. There is no excuse (unless hospitalized or attending a funeral or wedding).
But you see how that decision for an ordinary athlete at an ordinary playing level is obviously not the same thing, right? And recognizing that, you can't promise that you would have played "no matter what" if you were a college player in, say, Rashan Gary's situation, on the verge of being a millionaire in a game of vanishing significance, not too injured to play but not 100% either.
I know you think you would ("based on principle"), but you don't have the experiences and perspective to guarantee you'd feel the same. In fact, if your circumstances were theirs, you might not even consider this as a matter of PRINCIPLES in the first place. So long as that's possible, and it is, I think it prevents our worthiness to judge them for it.
By the way: I don't like players sidelining themselves for bowl games, either. Hate it, actually. But I'm in no position to judge and find forgiving them pretty automatic. So my dislike gets redirected from the players to the sport.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 08, 2018, 03:13:27 PM
It happens all the time.



I (and my team)  work more hours to make it happen. Every client "thinks" they are my only client, and they are treated equally. That's how it works. 



Get it done. You play the "game" with the "team" you signed up for. Whatever it takes. No excuses.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 08, 2018, 03:17:59 PM
It happens all the time.



I (and my team)  work more hours to make it happen. Every client "thinks" they are my only client, and they are treated equally. That's how it works.



Get it done. You play the "game" with the "team" you signed up for. Whatever it takes. No excuses.
I think that either you aren't being honest with yourself or you aren't noticing the abstract limits of the analogy -- that it is strictly impossible to GUARANTEE that both clients are as happy as they want. That either ONLY the prospective $10MM client will get that guarantee or ONLY the current, smaller client will get it. Guaranteeing it to both is not possible.
Just as for these players, guaranteeing both their maximal earnings in 5 months and guaranteeing their participation this game is not possible.
You have to pick ONE.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 08, 2018, 03:21:35 PM
Deandre Baker is going to play in the Sugar Bowl.

https://247sports.com/college/georgia/Article/Bulldogs-Deandre-Baker-will-play-in-Sugar-Bowl-vs-Texas-Longhorns-125946650/
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 08, 2018, 03:57:36 PM

You have to pick ONE.
No, I don't. There is no choice in the matter.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 08, 2018, 03:57:52 PM
Deandre Baker is going to play in the Sugar Bowl.

https://247sports.com/college/georgia/Article/Bulldogs-Deandre-Baker-will-play-in-Sugar-Bowl-vs-Texas-Longhorns-125946650/
Bravo. Good teammate.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MichiFan87 on December 08, 2018, 05:01:20 PM
It's somewhat understandable for some players, especially if they're injury prone and/or injured this year, as Gary was. For Grier, in particular, I don't really get it, though he is apparently projected higher than I expected despite his size and lack of games against good defenses.

Conversely, some coaches are guilty of not playing their seniors as much in bowl games in favor of returning players, so coaches can't necessarily play the victim role, either.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Kris60 on December 08, 2018, 05:51:14 PM
I don’t love it from a fan POV.  I think it is being overly cautious but I’ve also never been in a position to lose millions of dollars.  If Grier goes out there and cracks his leg in half I’ll say, “Jeez, that sucks” and then be over it in 5 seconds.  He has to live with it.

If his teammates are upset with him then I think they have a right to be.  As a fan I don’t.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 08, 2018, 06:02:38 PM
Or, you could make like Bosa and just not play at all. Why play in November? October?



That's where this is headed. Just watch.




:96:
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 08, 2018, 06:03:54 PM
I havent researched this, but I'm 99% (invented percentage) that it's true:  all these players who sit out bowl games are much more likely to have a career-ending injury driving around in their car than they are in one particular football game.  Yet they drive, and if they chose not to drive, at least then they wouldn't be letting down their teammates.


Just sayin'.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 08, 2018, 06:53:52 PM
No, I don't. There is no choice in the matter.
Unless you think that the players who get injured in bowl games chose to, you're deliberately ignoring the purpose of the exercise.
The choice is either to guarantee something life-changingly big (that one has earned) or risk losing it for little or zero compensation (for sake of congratulating one's principles).
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MrNubbz on December 08, 2018, 07:30:14 PM
Or, you could make like Bosa and just not play at all. Why play in November? October?



That's where this is headed. Just watch.




:96:
This is what cracks me up everyone talk about expansion,while more players are sitting.So I guess they won't find out who the best team is after all and just made the networks/programs more money
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 08, 2018, 07:33:17 PM
Do we actually know that Bosa skipped the season? My understanding is that he may actually have been sufficiently hurt to miss the season on injury alone. Making the only weird thing is that he also skipped town. I'll admit that part is worthy of our furled eyebrows. But without more info, we probably shouldn't lump him into this thread about guys who can play but pick not to.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 08, 2018, 10:06:12 PM

Donnell Greene (http://www.espn.com/college-football/player/_/id/4034773/donnell-greene), OT, Minnesota
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 09, 2018, 07:25:17 AM
For the potential first rounders, especially RBs, playing in a bowl game is a poor financial decision IMHO.  Most players obviously need that bowl game to impress scouts, but some are clearly top players and don't need it, so they can prep for the combine etc.  It's not as if many are sticking around to graduate.

For those who were poor all their lives, the prospects of a major income has to be alluring.  What they do with it is a separate thing of course.

Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 09, 2018, 10:14:09 AM
I havent researched this, but I'm 99% (invented percentage) that it's true:  all these players who sit out bowl games are much more likely to have a career-ending injury driving around in their car than they are in one particular football game.  Yet they drive, and if they chose not to drive, at least then they wouldn't be letting down their teammates.


Just sayin'.
Ehh, that’s probably less than true. 
Let’s say we assume something insanely generous like 10 percent of non-old people suffer one football-career damaging injury in a car. But they’re likely driving thousands of miles per injury. Chances are you’re gonna get hurt more often in two years of football than two years of driving, even if you drive far more than you football. 

Now he counter would be that not that many kids suffer really draft-stock damaging injuries in bowls, but it depends the situation, the player etc. I can say, the chances are low, but if something costs me $800,000, I’m probably not gonna do it. Football at its heart remains a violent game with bodies falling all over legs often. I’d guess injury history might factor in as well. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 09, 2018, 11:29:31 AM
Okay, but death counts as a career-ending injury, too. I don't think people realize how many people die in car accidents each year.  And for college-age males, HALF their deaths are in car accidents.  A torn-up knee isn't really career-ending anymore, unless it's like Milton's or Marcus Lattimore's...and yet he even came back and played some in the pros, albeit at a less-effective level.



I'm just saying that there are insurance policies all over the place, they're sitting out bowl games, sitting out more than bowl games (Bosa), but they're driving every day.  The odds you get hurt badly in one football game (bowl) are insanely low.  Why play any games?  Just put together a video like Uncle Rico, showing how you can throw the ball over that mountain.



All I'm saying is that the act of sitting out is an overreaction and probably isn't a statistically valid move.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 09, 2018, 11:44:41 AM
It's a selfish move. There is no other way to explain it.



I wonder what Bo "the team the team the team" Schembechler would say. No, scratch that. I know what he'd say.




"I just pulled your scholarship, now get the F out of here!"
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 09, 2018, 12:06:52 PM
It's a selfish move. There is no other way to explain it.



I wonder what Bo "the team the team the team" Schembechler would say. No, scratch that. I know what he'd say.




"I just pulled your scholarship, now get the F out of here!"
Bo was miserably hyper-judgmental. Of course he'd make that mistake.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 09, 2018, 12:17:13 PM
Don't confuse "mistake" with old-school. Was it a "mistake" to tell Frieder to pack his things?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 09, 2018, 01:43:48 PM
Don't confuse "mistake" with old-school. Was it a "mistake" to tell Frieder to pack his things?
I'm in no position to say that was right or wrong. I can only say I really enjoy the telling of Frieder's firing. It's good drama. Cocky and finishes with an NC.
The comparison is broken, though. Frieder made his self-serving decision after years of receiving market value compensation. These players have never once received market value compensation.
It's the difference between big number/big number and big number/zero. The players' ratio is larger meaning their stakes are significantly riskier -- and if any of them felt desperate about those risks, it's understandable.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 09, 2018, 01:47:17 PM
Meanwhile, I'd rather not call out these sitting players as exhibiting poor principles. But if a person insists on going that way, it's impossible without highlighting that the system they play in, that arbitrarily refuses their access to personal market value, has an equal and opposite lack of principles.
And these players likely would have chosen very differently if they weren't aggressively incentivized to play the NCAA's same ("it's all about numero uno") shitty game.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 09, 2018, 09:01:03 PM
Nobody is forcing kids to play college football. It's a choice, and if a kid makes the choice to join a team, the team comes first. 



Just as my son made a choice to join his team (The Marines), the team came first, above all. 



T. E. A. M. 



I fail to notice an "I" here.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 09, 2018, 09:14:15 PM
Nobody is forcing kids to play college football. It's a choice, and if a kid makes the choice to join a team, the team comes first.



Just as my son made a choice to join his team (The Marines), the team came first, above all.



T. E. A. M.



I fail to notice an "I" here.
This comparison, it is odd. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 09, 2018, 09:44:59 PM
I just hate how the coaches are forced to go along with it, in order to not alienate the top recruits.  Ugh.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 09, 2018, 10:55:44 PM
This comparison, it is odd.

Is it? How so? Choices are both.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 09, 2018, 10:56:47 PM
We need the NFL to make a minor league for kids who have no interest in Kolledge. That would solve a lot of stuff.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 12:10:21 AM
Nobody is forcing kids to play college football. It's a choice, and if a kid makes the choice to join a team, the team comes first.



Just as my son made a choice to join his team (The Marines), the team came first, above all.


T. E. A. M.


I fail to notice an "I" here.
Hmm. You've moved on too soon. I guess it doesn't interest you to counterargue why you think the Bo/Frieder analogy is not broken? 
As for the new comment: As a society, we are pretty consistent about pushing kids into the field that brings them the most market value. So this argument doesn't work, either. For very worryingly many of these kids, football is obviously their #1 source of market potential. And when that's the case, CFB isn't exclusively a choice anymore. Because this is the only pathway: HSFB -> CFB -> beyond. 
Unfortunately for its participants, it's one of the rarest paths in america, in that accepts all comers with market value and then forbids them from cashing in on theirs.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 12:13:07 AM
Is it? How so? Choices are both.
For one, that choice wasn't the only available path for the market value you noticed in your son.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 12:21:22 AM
We need the NFL to make a minor league for kids who have no interest in Kolledge. That would solve a lot of stuff.
With enough compensation, you're right. It could work. But without enough popularity, I am skeptical it would be able to pay the kids enough (maybe a multiple of 2 or 3 of the poverty line + community college or trade school education after football) to live up to its potential as a thing that could work.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 10, 2018, 07:36:23 AM
Then it's not a good "business" to get into, right?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 10, 2018, 07:38:18 AM
Hmm. You've moved on too soon. I guess it doesn't interest you to counterargue why you think the Bo/Frieder analogy is not broken?

It's not broken at all. If a person tells their manager they no longer want to be a part of the team, they're gone. It doesn't matter what the team is. It could be any operation.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on December 10, 2018, 08:24:13 AM
It is a joke, and I use it a lot. My youngest is getting married on July 5th next year. The nerve!!

I can tell you that missing a game, for any reason, was not tolerated or allowed when I grew up. I also carried this with me to when I raised my own. If you join a team, you play for the team. There is no excuse (unless hospitalized or attending a funeral or wedding).
It's not that big a deal, and the sun will still rise on those campuses, but I'm with you on this.  It's a crappy thing to do to your teammates.
At Maryland we seem to lose a lot of athletes who go pro early.  I understand and accept the argument that you can't turn down millions of dollars if they are available.  But this seems different to me.  It's letting down your teammates by not showing up when you committed to showing up.  Like I said, the sun will still, rise, but...
A guy like Will Grier knew a long time ago that he had a shot at the NFL.  What's so special about skipping this particular game?  Why not bag the season after it was clear that they weren't going make the playoffs, or win the conference?  Why even come back for the season at all?  Some of this still puzzles me.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MaximumSam on December 10, 2018, 08:34:54 AM
The system is set up to screw these kids out of money they have earned.  So whatever they "owe" has already been paid.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 10, 2018, 08:37:38 AM
A guy like Will Grier knew a long time ago that he had a shot at the NFL.  What's so special about skipping this particular game?  Why not bag the season after it was clear that they weren't going make the playoffs, or win the conference?  Why even come back for the season at all?  Some of this still puzzles me.
That's been my big question all along.  For example, if Justin Layne is going to skip the bowl, why did he play against Rutgers, or even Nebraska for that matter?  MSU was 6-4 going into Nebraska.  They had already clinched a bowl bid, they weren't winning any title, so how are those games any more important than the bowl game?  I have yet to hear a convincing answer other than "they aren't."  So I'm assuming that's the next step?  To me the only logical answer is "I get it, but I don't like it."  Are high school kids going to start sitting out once they commit to programs?  Is that going to worry college teams?  I don't know the answer.  I think the only thing that might change it is NFL teams saying they are marking that as a yellow flag as to how those players will treat a contract year for them
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 10, 2018, 08:47:08 AM
I think the only thing that might change it is NFL teams saying they are marking that as a yellow flag as to how those players will treat a contract year for them
I was thinking about this too. If I were a GM, I would not select a player who quit on his team.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: JerseyTerrapin on December 10, 2018, 08:53:47 AM
I would like to add that Anonymous Coward's thoughts on this subject definitely resonate and strike a chord  with me (gee, can I think of another cliche?).  I honestly don't know how I feel about this.  And who really cares what I think, anyway?  I'm not even sure I do!
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 10, 2018, 09:23:17 AM
I was thinking about this too. If I were a GM, I would not select a player who quit on his team.
The NFL could put an end to it by guaranteeing contracts both ways, like the other leagues do, but they don't, because they want to be able to rip up a contract when it no longer benefits them too.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MrNubbz on December 10, 2018, 09:24:31 AM
 I think the only thing that might change it is NFL teams saying they are marking that as a yellow flag as to how those players will treat a contract year for them
Problem is they effed it up themselves by throwing guaranteed cash at free agents instead of implementing an incentive based pay scale 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MrNubbz on December 10, 2018, 09:35:20 AM
We need the NFL to make a minor league for kids who have no interest in Kolledge. That would solve a lot of stuff.
Yup but some Universities will obviously take a financial hit(top 5-10 draws) but across the board that would obviously put a stop to it.The encroachment of NFL popularity timewise is a relatively recent thing.At it's inception both CFB and beisbol were both more popular and by no small margin either.Guys were staying in College because the NFL wasn't paying much better than a sustenance wage that had to be supplemented in the off season.Inadvertently both the NCAA/NFL created todays chaos thru their own wanton greed
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 10, 2018, 12:12:46 PM
If I had a son positioned to be a 1st day pick in the draft and the team was playing in a fairly meaningless bowl game, I would probably counsel him to sit it out.

I'd let him decide on his own, but if he asked, I would say sit.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 10, 2018, 12:33:21 PM
I was thinking about this too. If I were a GM, I would not select a player who quit on his team.
You would if he filled a hole in your team.  We all would.  Do you know how many NFL GMs manage with their heart?  None, they've all been fired.  The moment you take the less-talented guy, you've lost.
This is why this issue sucks so hard.  College coaches have to abide by it, as to keep the talent rolling in.  The NFL GMs have to pretend not to care, to keep the talent rolling in.
My issue with it is purely statistical.  Whether you've been hurt already or not, even in this violent game, what are the odds your career will be at-risk in the next 60 snaps?  Very little.  If you're a baller, do the insurance thing and have at it.  Go have fun, play hard, etc.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 10, 2018, 12:41:06 PM
Meanwhile, I'd rather not call out these sitting players as exhibiting poor principles. But if a person insists on going that way, it's impossible without highlighting that the system they play in, that arbitrarily refuses their access to personal market value, has an equal and opposite lack of principles.

Exactly. I don't like it at all. I personally, from an emotional perspective, consider them as quitting on their teammates. It grates at me.
But I have to look at the bigger picture, and realize that even though I don't like what they're doing, they're basically locked into a crap system that puts all the risk [injury] on their shoulders and doesn't adequately compensate for that risk. I can't blame them for doing what is best for them, when the system is designed to make it impossible for playing the game to be what's best for them. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 01:17:01 PM
It's not broken at all. If a person tells their manager they no longer want to be a part of the team, they're gone. It doesn't matter what the team is. It could be any operation.
The analogy is broken because Frieder versus these students do not take on the same risk for their self-interested choices. That asymmetry makes it flawed as a thought experiment. Or, to use the cliche I was avoiding, "apples and oranges."
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 01:24:36 PM
We need the NFL to make a minor league for kids who have no interest in Kolledge. That would solve a lot of stuff.
To come back to this. It wouldn't solve anything completely, but letting anyone who's ready go to the NFL draft, be it after HS, one-and-done, etc., would at least diminish some of this. 
In other conversations quite outside this thread: 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 10, 2018, 01:26:55 PM
It's a selfish move. There is no other way to explain it.



I wonder what Bo "the team the team the team" Schembechler would say. No, scratch that. I know what he'd say.




"I just pulled your scholarship, now get the F out of here!"
My words do not need to be twisted and the lines here have nothing written in-between them. My point stands. My opinion and belief on this matter won't change.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 01:31:25 PM
Then it's not a good "business" to get into, right?
I know you "got out" and made a great life for yourself and therefore will always have the mentality that it's 100% pure bootstraps and choices, but that doesn't mean you don't also underestimate your luck or how hard it is for others to be born into a poor family and escape. And the kids you're upset with, the ones who aren't making every correct decision, are largely low in socioeconomic standing. You're a good and impressive person. And they deserve more understanding than this. Both can be true.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 01:33:05 PM
My words do not need to be twisted and the lines here have nothing written in-between them. My point stands. My opinion and belief on this matter won't change.
What was twisted? You are saying Frieder and these kids are the same kind of selfish. And I'm pointing out how broken your analogy is. Circumstances matter. It's asymmetric because of compensation. Apples and oranges. Maybe there really is a good analogy out there to apples and apples judge these kids. Go find it.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 01:40:08 PM
The system is set up to screw these kids out of money they have earned.  So whatever they "owe" has already been paid.
Precisely.
That's the inevitable direction of this thread. Because the judgment here is entirely different if the players were market compensated.
Detractors are judging each uncompensated player (with maximal financial vulnerability for themself and family) as if a salaried NFL player is being insolent or cowardly and sitting out to stay healthy. And that's not correct until the players are compensated.
Once they are market value compensated, I expect to reverse my perspective on this - likely the full 180*.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 10, 2018, 01:45:31 PM
It wasn't an analogy. That's your choice of how to described my comment - that they are the same kind of selfish. Shit, Frieder WANTED TO COACH MICHIGAN and he was told to go packing. Not even close to an analogy. Good Lord man.


You responded to my comment with this:

"Bo was miserably hyper-judgmental. Of course he'd make that mistake."


To which I responded:

Don't confuse "mistake" with old-school. Was it a "mistake" to tell Frieder to pack his things?



You can choose to make this an analogy if you like. My post was simply in reference to how Bo Schembechler would respond to anyone not wanting to be on "the team" with him.


My point still stands. Sitting out a game is selfish.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 01:53:47 PM
Your post doesn't have to take the boringly literal form "Frieder is to selfish as the players are to selfish" to be a comparison or analogy.
I seriously doubt you didn't mean for comparison. And if you sincerely meant zero comparison between saying Frieder was selfish in one breath and in a separate breath saying the same of these players, then your Frieder inclusion was weird. Off topic.
Only a comparison makes it on topic.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you wrote it on purpose, coherently and on-topic.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 10, 2018, 02:27:39 PM
Your post doesn't have to take the boringly literal form "Frieder is to selfish as the players are to selfish" to be a comparison or analogy.
I seriously doubt you didn't mean for comparison. And if you sincerely meant zero comparison between saying Frieder was selfish in one breath and in a separate breath saying the same of these players, then your Frieder inclusion was weird. Off topic.
Only a comparison makes it on topic.
I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you wrote it on purpose, coherently and on-topic.
Where did I ever say Frieder was selfish? Show me. Please.

The only reason I mentioned him was to show that Bo had no use for people on his team that didn't want to be there. End of story. Nothing between the lines. Nothing to twist. Nothing to doubt, even seriously.

All done I hope.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 10, 2018, 02:39:02 PM
Is it? How so? Choices are both.
Because it compares life and death public service with semi-amateur sports. And while involvoking the marines adds gravitas, it’s just such a far cry from it. 
The teamwork being a soldier requires involves making the choice to possibly leave one’s own a child parentless and a spouse a widow or widower for the sake of recovering the body of a fallen comrad. 
One has real stakes, the other, it just matters so much less. 
(I am now trying to figure out what the camping world bowl of life and death military missions is. If we have any ideas)   
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 10, 2018, 02:42:13 PM
It wasn't an analogy. That's your choice of how to described my comment - that they are the same kind of selfish. Shit, Frieder WANTED TO COACH MICHIGAN and he was told to go packing. Not even close to an analogy. Good Lord man.


You responded to my comment with this:

"Bo was miserably hyper-judgmental. Of course he'd make that mistake."


To which I responded:

Don't confuse "mistake" with old-school. Was it a "mistake" to tell Frieder to pack his things?



You can choose to make this an analogy if you like. My post was simply in reference to how Bo Schembechler would respond to anyone not wanting to be on "the team" with him.


My point still stands. Sitting out a game is selfish.

I think I agree it’s selfish, becuase it’s someone thinking about themselves. I could also cast playing as selfish, or our desire to highlight it with such irritation. 
But I think you’re putting more weight on the word than I. You’re casting it as a moral failing, I see it as more part of he human condition. You see it as ugly, I see it as somewhat natural, a conservative instinct. 
I suppose we won’t bridge that, but you know what, that’s OK. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 06:41:32 PM
Where did I ever say Frieder was selfish? Show me. Please.

The only reason I mentioned him was to show that Bo had no use for people on his team that didn't want to be there. End of story. Nothing between the lines. Nothing to twist. Nothing to doubt, even seriously.

All done I hope.
Like is said, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you wrote it with intention - coherently and on-topic.
You've been talking about "team, the team, T.E.A.M." In many posts. Even in that specific post about Bo. That seemed like a natural linker. The natural implication is that Frieder was not a team player and that could only be relevant here if these players are also not team players. Which is a synonym for selfishness.
But yeah, I guess this is resolved if you insist you were either not being coherent or on-topic. That you actually were not making this relevant comparison. But you'll have to forgive me for expecting that you were.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 06:45:58 PM
But I think you’re putting more weight on the word than I. You’re casting it as a moral failing, I see it as more part of he human condition. You see it as ugly, I see it as somewhat natural, a conservative instinct.
I suppose we won’t bridge that, but you know what, that’s OK.
That's very well distilled.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 10, 2018, 07:26:31 PM
So am I. I'm old-school.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 10, 2018, 11:14:12 PM
sitting out a bowl game maybe somewhat natural and conservative, but it's not what the program they've been a part of has preached to them since they arrived.

Sacrifice for the good of the team or the unit
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 10, 2018, 11:30:45 PM
Solve it from both sides:

Let them be paid ... for the good of the team or the unit.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Riffraft on December 11, 2018, 10:21:19 AM
It wasn't an analogy. That's your choice of how to described my comment - that they are the same kind of selfish. Shit, Frieder WANTED TO COACH MICHIGAN and he was told to go packing. Not even close to an analogy. Good Lord man.


You responded to my comment with this:

"Bo was miserably hyper-judgmental. Of course he'd make that mistake."


To which I responded:

Don't confuse "mistake" with old-school. Was it a "mistake" to tell Frieder to pack his things?



You can choose to make this an analogy if you like. My post was simply in reference to how Bo Schembechler would respond to anyone not wanting to be on "the team" with him.


My point still stands. Sitting out a game is selfish.

I think it is the "loaded" word selfish is the issue. I think a better word would be acting in self-interest. I know semantics, but still I think valid. And who can blame a kid for acting in their own self-interest particularly when there are potential life altering things involved. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 11, 2018, 04:00:05 PM
Solve it from both sides:

Let them be paid ... for the good of the team or the unit.
then they will need additional bowl check
or they will sit out waiting for the big money
money makes everything worse, not better
let the kids that love the game play
the kids that love the money can do something else - like sit out
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 11, 2018, 09:54:42 PM
then they will need additional bowl check
or they will sit out waiting for the big money
money makes everything worse, not better
let the kids that love the game play
the kids that love the money can do something else - like sit out
The don't need a salary. They just need the NCAA to say "you are allowed to collect money on your own in any legal way just like every other American."
Do that and the incentive to sit is significantly diminished. Right now these pre-draft players take on all the financial risk for zero of the financial benefit.
The bowl season is quite different if you change that ratio so zero can stop being in their denominator. And it won't require salary or "an extra bowl check." It's realistic that anything the pre-draft players are worth they will get with minimal effort. 
And if any of them want more than their market value, we can have a thread like this one except with every single poster opposing the player.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 11, 2018, 10:04:35 PM
While I don't disagree with allowing them to do that necessarily, I don't think it does anything to change this.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 11, 2018, 10:14:21 PM
While I don't disagree with allowing them to do that necessarily, I don't think it does anything to change this.
I don't vigorously disagree but still do somewhat. Because that kind of CFB economy shifts the equation. At present this is their equation:
By playing:
By sitting out:
Re: "making zero dollars in the bowl" you could argue I'm glossing over the sort of revenue structure that would keep a player incentivized after the regular season. That's mostly because I've been restraining myself from too much imagination here.
Still, I guess these would be my responses:
(a) it still would matter that the players would by this date have accrued, even if modest, some career income (a "cushion")
(b) the player's market value on campus drops to zero and so would December through April income if he chooses to stop playing for the people who love that campus.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 11, 2018, 10:24:03 PM
LeVeon Bell gave up $14 million guaranteed this year to avoid risking injury to cost him $40 million+

If the players don't gain anything and the NFL doesn't view it as a red flag, I don't think a few thousand dollars to pitch used cars will change it.  If any of those sponsorships are contingent on playing, maybe, but as it is they can take their money, and sit out and not risk their ability to attain greater riches.

I still ask the question of how the Redbox Bowl is a less meaningful game than the Rutgers game was, or Nebraska?  So while I don't like this trend as a fan, I can't blame them, and don't get too worked up.  What concerns me is that until someone can convince me that line exists, I do worry about the next step.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 11, 2018, 10:26:43 PM
Well what about the Senior Bowl?  Why not skip that, too?  Might get hurt.  
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 11, 2018, 10:29:17 PM
Well what about the Senior Bowl?  Why not skip that, too?  Might get hurt.  
I have no idea why those games still exist.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 11, 2018, 10:32:46 PM
true, if Noah Fant is going to sit out the bowl game, why not also sit out the final big ten game vs Nebraska?

the only thing they were playing for that day was a better bowl game
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 11, 2018, 10:36:02 PM
LeVeon Bell gave up $14 million guaranteed this year to avoid risking injury to cost him $40 million+

If the players don't gain anything and the NFL doesn't view it as a red flag, I don't think a few thousand dollars to pitch used cars will change it.  If any of those sponsorships are contingent on playing, maybe, but as it is they can take their money, and sit out and not risk their ability to attain greater riches.

I still ask the question of how the Redbox Bowl is a less meaningful game than the Rutgers game was, or Nebraska?  So while I don't like this trend as a fan, I can't blame them, and don't get too worked up.  What concerns me is that until someone can convince me that line exists, I do worry about the next step.
I think you're underestimating the power of an extra $5-10K guaranteed versus a 1/1000 chance at losing millions.
Especially if we need to eat and pay December rent: It's in our nature to take that bet.
As for the line and next step: there probably is no line (except for those on the verge of graduating) and the next steps are obvious. But they can be opposed. I argue that market value economics can even oppose most bowl sit-outs and that it'd do even better to prevent season sit-outs.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 11, 2018, 10:37:12 PM
Well what about the Senior Bowl?  Why not skip that, too?  Might get hurt.  
That's why no one plays in that game unless they feel they are being severely undervalued by scouts and need one last opportunity to show out.
It should be enough to say that game doesn't matter but it also shouldn't be affected here. It's completely insulated from the motivations that see high draft picks sit out bowls.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 11, 2018, 10:53:27 PM
true, if Noah Fant is going to sit out the bowl game, why not also sit out the final big ten game vs Nebraska?

the only thing they were playing for that day was a better bowl game
Hell, with the way the bowl selections work now, they weren't even playing for that.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 11, 2018, 10:55:47 PM
I think you're underestimating the power of an extra $5-10K guaranteed versus a 1/1000 chance at losing millions.
Especially if we need to eat and pay December rent: It's in our nature to take that bet.
As for the line and next step: there probably is no line (except for those on the verge of graduating) and the next steps are obvious. But they can be opposed. I argue that market value economics can even oppose most bowl sit-outs and that it'd do even better to prevent season sit-outs.
I don't get why they can't have both.  Just because they got $10k why are they suddenly willing to risk millions for no gain, with no downside to missing?  Unless it's some local car dealer/booster who doesn't so much want to have the kid as a pitchman, but as a way to pay a player, and makes the endorsement deal contingent on that.  But I can't see those being the types of arrangements
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 11, 2018, 11:06:21 PM
I think the high round draft picks are worth at least 5-10K per month in college. And that the world is dying to give it to them. (Again: Not as a university/AD salary but in terms of out on the streets and in terms of local endorsements, etc. 
With that perspective it seems almost silly to wonder why they'd play. They'll play to keep their gravy train rolling. Realistically, the payments only derail if they sit. And it's a sure thing. The injury risk is probabilistic.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 11, 2018, 11:08:44 PM

Especially if we need to eat and pay December rent: It's in our nature to take that bet.
they have had room & board taken care of for decades
if they are done playing, the room & board is done
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 11, 2018, 11:10:28 PM
I think the high round draft picks are worth at least 5-10K per month in college. And that the world is dying to give it to them. (Again: Not as a university/AD salary but in terms of out on the streets and in terms of local endorsements, etc.
With that perspective it seems almost silly to wonder why they'd play. They'll play to keep their gravy train rolling. Realistically, the payments only derail if they sit. And it's a sure thing. The injury risk is probabilistic.
Noah Fant has probably already signed with an agent and the first check was more than $10K
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 11, 2018, 11:11:19 PM
they have had room & board taken care of for decades
if they are done playing, the room & board is done
Most of them stop living in dorms after the first year and begin living in houses whose rent exceeds their standard room and board.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 11, 2018, 11:13:45 PM
Noah Fant has probably already signed with an agent and the first check was more than $10K
True. Embedded in my argument is also the idea that players want to play. Fant isn't sitting out or collecting from an agent because he stopped liking football. He's doing that because playing isn't worth it. All my posts are about making it worth it. And the answers are easy and cost the universities nothing directly.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 11, 2018, 11:14:37 PM
Most of them stop living in dorms after the first year and begin living in houses whose rent exceeds their stipend.
by their choice
some live in places that are much less than their stipend
by their choice
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 11, 2018, 11:17:51 PM
by their choice
some live in places that are much less than their stipend
by their choice
True. Also irrelevant. Unless your goal is to make people stop acting like people. My angle is different ("what's human nature predict for these players' decisions and how can we realistically make them want to choose to play?).
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 11, 2018, 11:18:53 PM
True. Embedded in my argument is also the idea that players want to play. Fant isn't sitting out or collecting from an agent because he stopped liking football. He's doing that because playing isn't worth it. All my posts are about making it worth it. And the answers are easy and cost the universities nothing directly.
what is it worth to the 3 guys invited to the Heisman ceremony?  
especially if Haskins wants to come back and play another season - the loss could be worth 10's of millions
selling jerseys and autographs isn't going to cover it
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 11, 2018, 11:23:32 PM
what is it worth to the 3 guys invited to the Heisman ceremony?  
especially if Haskins wants to come back and play another season - the loss could be worth 10's of millions
selling jerseys and autographs isn't going to cover it
I think you missed the other posts on this. This dilemma isn't "how do we pay them millions in college so they stop worrying about their 1/1000 injury risk per game?"
The dilemma is "how do we guarantee them *enough* to offset their concern about a 1/1000 injury risk per game?"
Since a few million dollars is quite large but the risk of losing it all is quite small, this can be offset with a reverse of the same math employed by insurance agencies:
Guarantee them a medium amount of money no matter what so long as they play.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 11, 2018, 11:26:47 PM
I think the high round draft picks are worth at least 5-10K per month in college. And that the world is dying to give it to them. (Again: Not as a university/AD salary but in terms of out on the streets and in terms of local endorsements, etc.
With that perspective it seems almost silly to wonder why they'd play. They'll play to keep their gravy train rolling. Realistically, the payments only derail if they sit. And it's a sure thing. The injury risk is probabilistic.
If the issue was guys quitting earlier, then maybe.  What heavy train is stopping because they don't play in a bowl game, a couple months before entering the draft anyway.  I don't think they would miss out on any money by skipping the bowl game anyway, and even if they would, players have already proven they've been willing to miss out on far more than a couple thousand bucks to pursue millions.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 11, 2018, 11:32:53 PM
well, when there's an easy way to do this with the #3 or #14 rated O-lineman in the coming draft  I might still be alive and interested

those guys can sell some jerseys in Lincoln, but probably not so much other places
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 11, 2018, 11:35:43 PM
If the issue was guys quitting earlier, then maybe.  What heavy train is stopping because they don't play in a bowl game, a couple months before entering the draft anyway.  I don't think they would miss out on any money by skipping the bowl game anyway, and even if they would, players have already proven they've been willing to miss out on far more than a couple thousand bucks to pursue millions.
Dollar handshakes in the streets and free meals around town are the easy examples. And it wouldn't be unusual if local endorsers had situations like these built into contracts and payment schedules.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 05:59:48 AM
What is the market value of a player, without a helmet and jersey to put on?



What is Noah Fant's value had he never wore this?


(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fimages%2Fi%2F262446908349-0-1%2Fs-l1000.jpg&hash=d04e40eedb910b6dd1042b238555ba87)


?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 12, 2018, 07:42:46 AM
ESPNU radio this morning was crushing Grier for his decision, saying a QB sitting out makes no sense, because (a) the system they play he never gets hit and (b) the types of questions GMs ask QBs, this will 100% hurt his draft stock.  Greg McElroy said the question he was most asked in the draft lead up was whether he loved football or what football had given him, and that that was a very common question of QBs, because (as we've discussed with Aaron Rodgers) arm talent only gets you so far at that position.  For a guy who already screwed over one team by getting busted for PEDs to then do this to the team that gave him a second chance, on top of being able to answer that question, they were in agreement that while they totally get Ed Oliver not going out there to play Army's cut blocking, that they thought Will Grier was making a terrible decision for his draft stock, no matter how you feel about players skipping bowls.

Ron Dayne said something similar to my thought, why the bowl game?  Even if you are going to do that, why not the last few games if you are just a .500ish team?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 08:12:09 AM
I hate that this discussion ALWAYS goes into paying the players. ELA, you said it. A kid getting $10K to peddle used cars doesn't prevent him from sitting out. If the deal stipulates that the kid must play, well, that opens a whole different can.


You play for the team and school you joined, period. The team that help you by catching or throwing a pass, a block, etc. The school that made you what you are, with support, elite training, special diets designed by professionals, etc. Not playing after receiving all of that, in addition to an education, is just selfish.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 12, 2018, 08:20:20 AM
I agree it's self serving.  I don't know if that's a bad thing.  I don't have stronger moral opposition to this than I do to coaches jumping ship on kids they made promises to.

I just know as a fan I hate it.  Which I suppose makes me selfish too, ha.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 10:43:27 AM
I hate that this discussion ALWAYS goes into paying the players. ELA, you said it. A kid getting $10K to peddle used cars doesn't prevent him from sitting out. If the deal stipulates that the kid must play, well, that opens a whole different can.


You play for the team and school you joined, period. The team that help you by catching or throwing a pass, a block, etc. The school that made you what you are, with support, elite training, special diets designed by professionals, etc. Not playing after receiving all of that, in addition to an education, is just selfish.
You greatly overestimate the value of what the players get relative to what they are worth. And the conversation goes here because that explains the phenomenon. It's the reason why players don't rampantly sit out even more dangerous NFL games to stay healthy. Because they're already earning a living for one (less vulnerable to financial ruin) and that train ends if they sit to avoid injury (have full incentive).
The college players have neither. The are doing the thing you hate *because* the NCAA is a crook. Of course, you spend a lot of time wanting the NCAA to be this kind of crook (prevent players' access to market value) and that also paints your perspective.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 12, 2018, 10:50:38 AM
I agree it's self serving.  I don't know if that's a bad thing.  I don't have stronger moral opposition to this than I do to coaches jumping ship on kids they made promises to.

I just know as a fan I hate it.  Which I suppose makes me selfish too, ha.
Yes, humans are selfish, or act in their own self interest most of the time.  There is nothing wrong with it inherently unless you harm other humans in doing that.
I also dislike the practice, but as a father I would lean to it were it my son involved.
We'd all prefer the sport be "clean" but it simply isn't.  I'm surprised it's as clean as it is frankly.
It doesn't take to much effort to ignore or minimize what is ugly about it.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MaximumSam on December 12, 2018, 12:02:23 PM
FYI I get really rankled about this from the players' perspective.  The "Camping World" Bowl is run by Florida Citrus Sports.  As far as I can tell, their existence is to run this game and the Citrus Bowl.  Their stated mission is to:

"Our vision is to become the bowl industry leader in generating economic and exposure impact, providing the best customer experience and to establish Orlando as the nation’s premier neutral site/venue for sports events."

Their board looks to be several Orlando businessmen. They have a staff of 28 fulltime employees.  I googled their non-profit statement and found a website which stated their yearly revenue was 4.6 million dollars.  They listed their CEO as working 10 hours a week and pulling a salary of 464K.  Their CFO works 10 hours a week and make 157K.  They have a "Chief Customer Officer" who works 8 hours a week and makes 146K.

How is this possible?  How can someone work 10 hours a week and make nearly half a million dollars?  IT'S BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY THE PLAYERS FOR THEIR WORK.  Money is still being generated, it's just going to some other douchebag who didn't earn it.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 12, 2018, 12:09:25 PM
LeVeon Bell gave up $14 million guaranteed this year to avoid risking injury to cost him $40 million+
Le'Veon also had a bit of an axe to grind. It was clear what he wanted: a long-term contract with guaranteed money. Pittsburgh doesn't have a history of doing much of that. 
Le'Veon should have been in free agency prior to the 2017 season. He was not "under contract" with the Steelers. They used the Franchise Tag to keep him exclusive, didn't give him an acceptable long-term contract, and then basically ran him into the ground with 400 touches without any long-term guarantee. Granted, he did make $12M for the 2017 season, but I think he wanted the right to negotiate a contract outside of Pittsburgh.
Then in 2018, Pittsburgh did the same thing, even though Bell said he didn't want to play under the tag a second year without a long-term contract, and would consider sitting out the season or even retiring. Pittsburgh again gave him a contract with very little guarantee, so he didn't sign it, and they gave all indication of wanting to run him into the ground a second year in a row without long-term compensation. 
I think part of what Bell did was to save his body for the future contract. But another portion of it was IMHO to prove a point. He wanted to highlight that the Franchise Tag allowed the teams to basically force a player into playing on THEIR terms, when that player should rightly be in free agency. He was as much making an economic calculation for the future as he was throwing up a gigantic middle finger to the Steelers organization and the NFL for creating a system where he was effectively being forced into their way or the highway. He chose the highway. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Entropy on December 12, 2018, 12:22:51 PM
another option.... a new break in FCS Div 1 football...   Teams/conferences that want to pay players create a new division and basically become the minors for the NFL... not tied in the way MLB is tied, but rather, you're main purpose is to play football and get paid.   School is secondary.  

Others programs, who want academics first, can create their own division and TV contracts.   
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 01:07:13 PM
FYI I get really rankled about this from the players' perspective.  The "Camping World" Bowl is run by Florida Citrus Sports.  As far as I can tell, their existence is to run this game and the Citrus Bowl.  Their stated mission is to:

"Our vision is to become the bowl industry leader in generating economic and exposure impact, providing the best customer experience and to establish Orlando as the nation’s premier neutral site/venue for sports events."

Their board looks to be several Orlando businessmen. They have a staff of 28 fulltime employees.  I googled their non-profit statement and found a website which stated their yearly revenue was 4.6 million dollars.  They listed their CEO as working 10 hours a week and pulling a salary of 464K.  Their CFO works 10 hours a week and make 157K.  They have a "Chief Customer Officer" who works 8 hours a week and makes 146K.

How is this possible?  How can someone work 10 hours a week and make nearly half a million dollars?  IT'S BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY THE PLAYERS FOR THEIR WORK.  Money is still being generated, it's just going to some other douchebag who didn't earn it.

Fucking yup.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 01:11:04 PM
Without Iowa (or any other P5 school), Noah Fant is "worth" $_.



Someone fill that in for me.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 01:15:56 PM
another option.... a new break in FCS Div 1 football...   Teams/conferences that want to pay players create a new division and basically become the minors for the NFL... not tied in the way MLB is tied, but rather, you're main purpose is to play football and get paid.   School is secondary.  

Others programs, who want academics first, can create their own division and TV contracts.  
It's definitely an option but more destructive/less clean (would involve every P5 conference splitting in pieces). It also pretends that the only way for players to be paid is for the ADs to cut checks. Maybe that's not what you meant, but that's how it seemed as written ("...teams/conferences that want to pay the players...").
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Entropy on December 12, 2018, 01:16:58 PM
yes..  Schools cut the checks.   Basically, it's a minor league affiliated with a college.   It would also break conferences.

But at this point, I believe the payments are being made by many programs (boosters, not schools).   Might as well formalize it and let the field become level.  
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 01:24:06 PM
Without Iowa (or any other P5 school), Noah Fant is "worth" $_.



Someone fill that in for me.
His value without Iowa is certainly more than zero but I'll admit it's less than his worth with Iowa's fan base loving him. This is a shit argument, though. Because if the every Noah Fant skipped out on every Iowa and the playing level were lowered so that you or the average fit undergrad were to replace Noah on the roster, the value of Iowa's football program would bottom out.
The current P5 players and programs depend on one other both ways but fair compensation only moves one way.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 01:34:31 PM
yes..  Schools cut the checks.   Basically, it's a minor league affiliated with a college.   It would also break conferences.

But at this point, I believe the payments are being made by many programs (boosters, not schools).   Might as well formalize it and let the field become level.  
But schools never need to cut checks for players to receive their full market value. Just let the players collect whatever money they can in meetings or on the street and they'll fully acquire their market value without a single member of the AD needing to lose his job or chop his bloated salary. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 02:11:13 PM
His value without Iowa is certainly more than zero but I'll admit it's less than his worth with Iowa's fan base loving him. This is a shit argument, though. Because if the every Noah Fant skipped out on every Iowa and the playing level were lowered so that you or the average fit undergrad were could replace Noah on the roster, the value of Iowa's football program would bottom out.
The current P5 players and programs depend on one other both ways but fair compensation only moves one way.
So you're telling me that college football would bottom out without players like Noah Fant or Rashan Gary? You do understand that about 2% of all FBS players get drafted each year, no? Last year there were 256 players taken in the NFL draft. That makes 192 players. There are 130 schools in FBS, and each has 85 scholarships to hand out. That's 11,050 players.
And you're calling mine a (bad) argument?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MaximumSam on December 12, 2018, 04:25:17 PM
So you're telling me that college football would bottom out without players like Noah Fant or Rashan Gary? You do understand that about 2% of all FBS players get drafted each year, no? Last year there were 256 players taken in the NFL draft. That makes 192 players. There are 130 schools in FBS, and each has 85 scholarships to hand out. That's 11,050 players.
And you're calling mine a (bad) argument?
The many, many labor disputes in professional sports gives a good indicator of what the players are worth.  In the NFL that's a shade less than half.  Iowa athletics brought in about 115 million bucks in revenue last year.  So the math says about 55 million bucks should go to the athletes.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 04:41:52 PM
The many, many labor disputes in professional sports gives a good indicator of what the players are worth.  In the NFL that's a shade less than half.  Iowa athletics brought in about 115 million bucks in revenue last year.  So the math says about 55 million bucks should go to the athletes.
Iowa has 650 athletes in school. That comes to about $85K per year, per athlete. 

Seems to be a little less than what they are getting right now, with tuition, materials, room and board, nutrition, training, tutoring, travel, clothing and cost of attendance all factored in.

So, it's all good then.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MaximumSam on December 12, 2018, 05:07:21 PM
Iowa has 650 athletes in school. That comes to about $85K per year, per athlete.

Seems to be a little less than what they are getting right now, with tuition, materials, room and board, nutrition, training, tutoring, travel, clothing and cost of attendance all factored in.

So, it's all good then.
Iowa's in state tuition is 8000 bucks.  That adds up to 5.2 million bucks.  Their budget list about 2 million each for "training services" and "academic and counseling."  It's not clear what they are spending on room and board - probably not much but lets say 10 million.  We get to about 20 million, which means Iowa is shorting its athletes 35 million in cash.  (Actually 55 million in cash)
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 12, 2018, 05:30:29 PM
FWIW, Iowa itself lists full cost of attendance as $24,464 in state; $46,430 out of state.

I picked two sports at random; baseball, and womens soccer.  Baseball had 22 of 35 in state (63%); but soccer was only 9 of 29 (31%).  Let's just for the sake of argument say half of their athletes are in state.

So that total actually comes out to about $23 million.  But it's not that simple, because that's assuming all 650 athletes are on full scholarship, and that's not even close to the case.  I find it hard to believe they spend $2 million on training, I would guess it to be much higher than that.  Then there's things you can't put a price on, so long story short, it's not a thing you can probably just calculate.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 06:15:11 PM
Think about food, rent, clothing, etc. All the things I listed.


Then think about what a tutor costs. After that, think about what a training program costs.


I pay $65/hour for a trainer. If I trained 2 hours per day, 5 days per week, that would cost $34K per year.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 12, 2018, 06:24:34 PM
The only solution would be a minor league system, which the NFL would never pay for as they already get to use the NCAA for free. 

If it ever did happen it would essentially turn FBS into D3, which we already have and nobody watches. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 06:31:32 PM
Iowa has 650 athletes in school. That comes to about $85K per year, per athlete.

Seems to be a little less than what they are getting right now, with tuition, materials, room and board, nutrition, training, tutoring, travel, clothing and cost of attendance all factored in.

So, it's all good then.
I'm not sure you are being serious. "If we pay the football players then we also have to pay the swimmers and tennis players the same" is rarely a real argument. It's just a thing people say if they oppose paying the football players and want to grasp at every remaining straw before the conversation ends. Because that's not how capitalism works.
If you are being serious -- and as a businessman who likes capitalism I doubt it again -- only those players participating in revenue sports are likely to have any market value, let alone large market value. So failing to compensate revenue athletes is the only injustice. If the NCAA were to wave its wand and let every athlete collect on his/her own market value, the Power 5 football and basketball players are the *only* ones who'd absolutely receive more than they get now. Depending on the school, some baseball and hockey teams would add into that.
So your math (your denominator) is off by ~500 students.

Using Sam's reasoning about sports labor disputes: Iowa's 35 to 55 million should be split among its 120 or football and basketball players, perhaps adding in the baseball roster, if they turn a revenue that exceeds expenditure. Each athlete gets its per capita share of half of what its sport earned. If your sport's figure -- [team revenue] divided by [player number] is greater than another sport's figure -- plain text capitalism will have us paying you proportionately more.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MaximumSam on December 12, 2018, 06:34:33 PM
Think about food, rent, clothing, etc. All the things I listed.


Then think about what a tutor costs. After that, think about what a training program costs.


I pay $65/hour for a trainer. If I trained 2 hours per day, 5 days per week, that would cost $34K per year.
Tell your employees that you will cut their pay by 35K and instead provide personal training and get back to me on how they feel about that
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 06:37:28 PM
Tell your employees that you will cut their pay by 35K and instead provide personal training and get back to me on how they feel about that
My employees don't require personal training to perform their craft, so that argument is silly. I do provide up to $50/month for gym membership though.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MrNubbz on December 12, 2018, 06:37:42 PM
I'd love for the NCAA to shove it up the NFL's ass.The Nfl has shoved it up Clevelands,Baltimores,Oaklands,San Diegos & St Loius's ass along with the average paying customer.If they can throw 49 million per to that pathetic pedant Goodall's way - that name is a damnable misnomer,they can pay for player development.Or simply throw the the funds needed to do so the Universities way
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 06:38:20 PM
So you're telling me that college football would bottom out without players like Noah Fant or Rashan Gary? You do understand that about 2% of all FBS players get drafted each year, no? Last year there were 256 players taken in the NFL draft. That makes 192 players. There are 130 schools in FBS, and each has 85 scholarships to hand out. That's 11,050 players.
And you're calling mine a (bad) argument?
I'm telling you that if P5 football were to have zero NFL or maybe NFL athletes, and the product quality were lowered to Go5 or Ivy level, the market value for P5 revenue sports would plummet. It's takes no leap of faith to say that current television contracts and ticket sales would not survive in that environment.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 06:44:41 PM
The many, many labor disputes in professional sports gives a good indicator of what the players are worth.  In the NFL that's a shade less than half.  Iowa athletics brought in about 115 million bucks in revenue last year.  So the math says about 55 million bucks should go to the athletes.
This is an important post, in terms of anchoring us with real world numbers. Taking those numbers (something between $35MM and $55MM) and dividing by scholarship football (85) and basketball (13) players gives you something between $357,000 and $561,000, on average, per Iowa revenue athlete.
Whether they'd deserve the high or low end is dependent on the value of Iowa's other services (for revenue athletes only). It's also contingent on more athletes not being lumped in (do any other Iowa sports have revenue exceeding expenditure - baseball?).
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 06:52:34 PM
I don't for a minute believe that true fans of college football would back away from the games if the NFL had a minor league and took 250 players away from the college game every year. True fans cheer for the helmet and jersey, not the specific players.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 06:54:10 PM
This is an important post, in terms of anchoring us with real world numbers.
Those are not even close to real world numbers.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 06:57:24 PM
I don't for a minute believe that true fans of college football would back away from the games if the NFL had a minor league and took 250 players away from the college game every year. True fans cheer for the helmet and jersey, not the specific players.
Our fanbases are millions more massive than our alumni bases. If our product is Ivy quality, our fan bases will be our alumni bases.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 06:58:31 PM
Those are not even close to real world numbers.
Tell that to the lawyers involved in professional sports labor disputes.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 12, 2018, 06:59:29 PM
I don't for a minute believe that true fans of college football would back away from the games if the NFL had a minor league and took 250 players away from the college game every year. True fans cheer for the helmet and jersey, not the specific players.
Most sports fans watch sports to fawn over great athletes. I'm the rare breed that watches sports because I like to get behind the local teams and root for them to win. 
People like me would enjoy it because I could go watch the games in the Shoe without the gigantic crowd that typically keeps me at bay. The road games would no longer be televised, so that would kind of suck. 

They'd probably start streaming the games on their website like D3 schools do, but those aren't exactly ESPN productions. There's like one camera in the press box, and if you are lucky there might be a couple of students calling the game. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 07:27:15 PM
Most sports fans watch sports to fawn over great athletes. I'm the rare breed that watches sports because I like to get behind the local teams and root for them to win.  
You're less of a rare breed than you think, and I beg to differ with the first sentence. Sure, you're going to have those fans, and maybe those fans will simply wait for the minor league kid to get to the NFL to fawn, instead of fawning over an 18 y/o kid (kinda creepy, no??).

Taking 250 kids out of the college game will not dilute it very much at all. I mean, we're talking 2 out of 100. So, from, say, Michigan, you're talking about taking away Gary and Patterson. Think about that for a minute. Michigan would still be pretty good, no?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 07:31:01 PM
Tell that to the lawyers involved in professional sports labor disputes.
I don't care to discuss professional sports labor disputes, on a college football message board topic involving college athletes. There is enough selfishness in professional sports already, thank you.

Let's stick to apples and apples. Cheer for the jersey, and all that.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Mdot21 on December 12, 2018, 07:34:56 PM
I don't for a minute believe that true fans of college football would back away from the games if the NFL had a minor league and took 250 players away from the college game every year. True fans cheer for the helmet and jersey, not the specific players.
Couldn’t disagree with you more. 
This game is and always has been about the players.
You take the elite players out of the equation and the product will suffer. The die hard fans buying jerseys and going to the games isn’t what drives the sport anymore. It’s the tv contracts. IF you lose the marquee players that drive those ratings the whole thing would crumble. People want to watch bonafide stars like Johnny Manzel and Tim Tebow and semi-pro teams like Bama and Ohio State. You don’t have the elite future NFL players in the sport the ratings would fall off a cliff and the next go round of tv contract negotiations all the networks would tell the P5 conferences to go F themselves.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: SFBadger96 on December 12, 2018, 07:36:08 PM
Sports are about tribalism. Most people cheer for their tribe and care much less about how good their tribe is. Though it is always easier to cheer for a winning tribe.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Mdot21 on December 12, 2018, 07:40:13 PM
You're less of a rare breed than you think, and I beg to differ with the first sentence. Sure, you're going to have those fans, and maybe those fans will simply wait for the minor league kid to get to the NFL to fawn, instead of fawning over an 18 y/o kid (kinda creepy, no??).

Taking 250 kids out of the college game will not dilute it very much at all. I mean, we're talking 2 out of 100. So, from, say, Michigan, you're talking about taking away Gary and Patterson. Think about that for a minute. Michigan would still be pretty good, no?
Michigan didn’t have Patterson last year. They were pretty damn bad without him. 
The recruiting sites do a top 250, 247, and 300 lists every year. Michigan has more kids from those lists than just Patterson and Gary. 
Let’s say majority of those kids went to the minor leagues every year instead of going to P5 schools. The sport would most definitely suffer. A lot.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 12, 2018, 07:42:13 PM
You're less of a rare breed than you think, and I beg to differ with the first sentence. Sure, you're going to have those fans, and maybe those fans will simply wait for the minor league kid to get to the NFL to fawn, instead of fawning over an 18 y/o kid (kinda creepy, no??).

Taking 250 kids out of the college game will not dilute it very much at all. I mean, we're talking 2 out of 100. So, from, say, Michigan, you're talking about taking away Gary and Patterson. Think about that for a minute. Michigan would still be pretty good, no?
We are talking about 32 minor league teams that would pull players away from all of the top teams the teams that people actually watch. 
I agree that people like us would still watch them. But I don't think that we make up that big of a percentage of the "viewers" 
ELA is a huge soccer fan, but he doesn't give a crap about the Pittsburg team or even the MLS. He watches soccer from halfway around the world because those are the "best athletes." While I don't employ that approach myself, most sports fans do. 

There might be enough of us around to keep it on TV for a few decades perhaps, but eventually we will age out and be replaced with a generation that views the Big Ten in the same manner as we view a Conference from D3-FCS. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 12, 2018, 07:51:33 PM
Most sports fans watch sports to fawn over great athletes. I'm the rare breed that watches sports because I like to get behind the local teams and root for them to win.
People like me would enjoy it because I could go watch the games in the Shoe without the gigantic crowd that typically keeps me at bay. The road games would no longer be televised, so that would kind of suck.

They'd probably start streaming the games on their website like D3 schools do, but those aren't exactly ESPN productions. There's like one camera in the press box, and if you are lucky there might be a couple of students calling the game.
Everyone on this board agrees with you.
Otherwise they wouldn't prefer the second highest level of football available.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 12, 2018, 08:03:26 PM
Everyone on this board agrees with you.
Otherwise they wouldn't prefer the second highest level of football available.
You have to be a pretty die hard CFB fan to post on CFB message boards. We aren't exactly a slice of the average fandom. 
Canada has a pro football league, but they don't even play on Sundays because they can't compete with the NFL even in their own markets. The people that post on the CFL message board don't particularly give a crap about the NFL. But those are the die hards. Not the average "football fans"
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 08:34:37 PM
You're less of a rare breed than you think, and I beg to differ with the first sentence. Sure, you're going to have those fans, and maybe those fans will simply wait for the minor league kid to get to the NFL to fawn, instead of fawning over an 18 y/o kid (kinda creepy, no??).

Taking 250 kids out of the college game will not dilute it very much at all. I mean, we're talking 2 out of 100. So, from, say, Michigan, you're talking about taking away Gary and Patterson. Think about that for a minute. Michigan would still be pretty good, no?
But that's not what began this side conversation. This conversation began with your incredulity that P5-quality players and P5 teams need one another reciprocally. 
In which case taking away two, twenty, or two hundred of them is beside the point. If you want to have the thought experiment necessary to understand whether the P5 derives value from all of them, you have to imagine what it would be like with none of them.
And it'd be peanuts. Pleasant peanuts. But certainly never $100MM peanuts per school.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 12, 2018, 08:37:12 PM
With a minor league team for each franchise it would completely decimate the rosters of the top 25. Any player with serious pro potential would play there instead of college. Particularly the players that are good enough to leave after three years without much concern of getting a degree. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 08:38:03 PM
You have to be a pretty die hard CFB fan to post on CFB message boards. We aren't exactly a slice of the average fandom.
Canada has a pro football league, but they don't even play on Sundays because they can't compete with the NFL even in their own markets. The people that post on the CFL message board don't particularly give a crap about the NFL. But those are the die hards. Not the average "football fans"
It's true. Zero of my Michigan friends** post on Michigan boards. When we see each other, I sincerely doubt they even watch half the games, though that's a whole other matter.
**(guys I used to live with in A2, who still meet up on holidays and/or when I come to town for a tailgate) 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 08:42:57 PM
There might be enough of us around to keep it on TV for a few decades perhaps, but eventually we will age out and be replaced with a generation that views the Big Ten in the same manner as we view a Conference from D3-FCS.
Aging out is a worthy thing to point out. I'd argue the A.D.'s would lose significant revenue immediately if we enacted some scheme that fully drained their rosters and they refilled with Go5 or sub-Go5 level players. But we do have to acknowledge that badge is right that based on habits and traditions, many millions of us would keep watching anyway. Fewer millions than before, but many all the same. Decades later, however, that will have died down to sub-alumni association levels of intense interest. Because of course, not every Michigan or OSU graduate actually cares about CFB. And in those decades, we'd fail to recruit new non-grads as well.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 12, 2018, 08:53:28 PM
We are also assuming only one minor league team for each franchise. It's possible they'd have two or more tiers where players would work their way up the minors into the big leagues. With two tiers it would be 64 teams filling up their rosters with players that would otherwise be in college. 

Then there'd be the trickle down effect. Big Ten schools would be recruiting the players that would otherwise play in the MAC, and so forth. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 12, 2018, 09:07:58 PM
I'm not making an argument for or against paying players, btw. I'm staying out of that one. 

Just sorta jumped in mid thread. Carry on.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 09:27:57 PM
I'm thinking that the resident moderator should change the title of this thread.



I'm also thinking of offering a course on business economics and management. The other thing I'm thinking is talking about how "we" got to talking about this stuff. Helmet schools are guilty of paying HUGE money for coaching. 



Iowa too. I think it may have started there, with Kaptain Kirk's $4MIL bullet-proof contract after he went undefeated (sans ISU) and got hammered by Pete's highly paid USC "amateur" guys.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MaximumSam on December 12, 2018, 09:47:51 PM
I don't for a minute believe that true fans of college football would back away from the games if the NFL had a minor league and took 250 players away from the college game every year. True fans cheer for the helmet and jersey, not the specific players.
1. If so, then I imagine fans would also not care if the players get some cash.
2. Their is a delusion here that the only players who deserve money are those good enough to play professionally.  Jim Tressel ran into issues at Youngstown State involving players getting paid, and none of them were going to be in the NFL.  I spent my undergrad at Miami of Ohio and saw players working out ways to get paid, and they also were not NFL prospects.  The issue is college football itself, and every player involved, is a product that is being marketed and sold.  Every single player on Wisconsin and Iowa could make more money absent the amateurism rules, because they are part of a valuable product.  This idea that only college administrators and bowl game CEO's should profit off of the kids' work is, to me, really skeezy.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: utee94 on December 12, 2018, 09:53:13 PM
I'm thinking that the resident moderator should change the title of this thread.



I'm also thinking of offering a course on business economics and management. The other thing I'm thinking is talking about how "we" got to talking about this stuff. Helmet schools are guilty of paying HUGE money for coaching.



Iowa too. I think it may have started there, with Kaptain Kirk's $4MIL bullet-proof contract after he went undefeated (sans ISU) and got hammered by Pete's highly paid USC "amateur" guys.
Those guys are lax.  And, asleep at the wheel, apparently.
You get what you pay for, I suppose... :)
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 09:58:19 PM
1. If so, then I imagine fans would also not care if the players get some cash.
HAH!
2. Their is a delusion here that the only players who deserve money are those good enough to play professionally.  Jim Tressel ran into issues at Youngstown State involving players getting paid, and none of them were going to be in the NFL.  I spent my undergrad at Miami of Ohio and saw players working out ways to get paid, and they also were not NFL prospects.  The issue is college football itself, and every player involved, is a product that is being marketed and sold.  Every single player on Wisconsin and Iowa could make more money absent the amateurism rules, because they are part of a valuable product.  This idea that only college administrators and bowl game CEO's should profit off of the kids' work is, to me, really skeezy.
No doubt about that. That common misconception also sidesteps the fact that the pre-NFLers aren't the ones whose lacking compensation is most tragic. It's the "role players." If it weren't for the too small/too slow role players being screwed, threads like these would be scarce because "let's give pre-multimillionaires a few hundred thousand beforehand" is a shit rallying cry. 
Letting kids on a lower middle class or pre-poverty line trajectory collect the few hundred thousand they've already proven they deserve, well that's a completely other thing.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 10:03:55 PM
I'm thinking that the resident moderator should change the title of this thread.



I'm also thinking of offering a course on business economics and management. The other thing I'm thinking is talking about how "we" got to talking about this stuff. Helmet schools are guilty of paying HUGE money for coaching.



Iowa too. I think it may have started there, with Kaptain Kirk's $4MIL bullet-proof contract after he went undefeated (sans ISU) and got hammered by Pete's highly paid USC "amateur" guys.
(1) We're still on topic ... mostly. More than 90% of this is about players sitting out or the explanation for their motivations. There's no way to have that conversation completely without including their compensation.
(2) Bloated administrator and coach salaries are only inevitable because, after the cable bundle/BTN era dawned, these non-profits had a wealth of revenue and the majority of their workforce isn't allowed to collect, and those salaries filled the void.
The idea that it'd have been extended instead to fans by lowering ticket prices or cable costs always ran counter to human nature.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Reyd on December 12, 2018, 10:33:25 PM
Scott the best goalkeeper (parody) youtube. Stay to the end boys, specially for no money.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 10:50:45 PM
I have no idea why those games still exist.
Senior Bowl:
 - Beau Benzschawel
 - Michael Deiter
 - Alec Ingold

East-West Shrine Game
 - Andrew Van Ginkel
 - Ryan Connelly


Maybe they don't agree? Pretty sure there is at least one 1st or 2nd round guy in that group... of seniors.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 12, 2018, 10:52:33 PM
(1) We're still on topic ... mostly. .
Not. Even. Close.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 12, 2018, 10:55:52 PM
My employees don't require personal training to perform their craft, so that argument is silly. I do provide up to $50/month for gym membership though.
We’re so off topic, but my last job did that, and man was it a nice touch. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 12, 2018, 11:02:49 PM
got nothing to do with NCAA coaches salaries or how much money an education is worth

sitting out a bowl game or multiple games once a kid has proven himself worth a draft pick, especially a 1st or 2nd round pick, is all about the risk of injury vs the opportunity to sign his name and instantly become very wealthy.

If someone offered Noah Fant $500K to finish his senior season including a bowl game, would it be worth the risk?

A few years from now Noah could possibly be banking much more than Gronk.

My issue isn't with Noah and his family.  My issue is with his decision to leave his team, his coaches, his fans, the U of I, and the game he loves.  Probably at the urging of his agent, and financial advisors.

Understanding that his team, his coaches, his fans, the U of I, and the game he loves are responsible for his opportunity.

I like $$$ as much or more than most folks.  If it was my son, I'd look him in the eye and tell him to play the game if he wanted to play the game.  Hell take out the insurance policy for the bowl game.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 11:19:47 PM
Not. Even. Close.
"The players sit out because it isn't worth the risk, which is about money."
Outlining how the last few pages have been on-topic takes one easy sentence.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 12, 2018, 11:39:25 PM
If someone offered Noah Fant $500K to finish his senior season including a bowl game, would it be worth the risk?

Insurance companies make their money by saying yes to questions like that. Always taking the guaranteed decent money at the risk of very rarely losing big. Of course, part of this is personal/emotional, so I can't be 100% sure players would treat it the same way, but that's part of the point. There's nothing unprincipled or (net) unfair about doing the experiment and seeing how they would respond.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MrNubbz on December 13, 2018, 06:27:49 AM
 I do provide up to $50/month for gym membership though.
I'd rather stop for a splash at the local wateringhole.But it would prolly exceed that
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MrNubbz on December 13, 2018, 06:49:36 AM
Letting kids on a lower middle class or pre-poverty line trajectory collect the few hundred thousand they've already proven they deserve, well that's a completely other thing.
I get that but the NFL is in that business.Fairly certain that it is not in a University Charter to advance a non-scholastic grid iron career
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MrNubbz on December 13, 2018, 07:05:19 AM
People want to watch bonafide stars like Johnny Manzel and Tim Tebow and semi-pro teams like Bama and Ohio State. You don’t have the elite future NFL players in the sport the ratings would fall off a cliff and the next go round of tv contract negotiations all the networks would tell the P5 conferences to go F themselves.
Well it's gotten to the point the NFL is going to have to pony up one way or another to develop that talent.I don't think many here realize that University athletic departments by and large are loosing money.There are God knows how many men's and women's sports that have to be funded - those expenses are staggering.There are only 8-9-10 Programs that pocket money after all the other non-revenue generating sports are covered.Universities using FB windfall to cover the cost of tennis,golf,fencing,field hockey,water polo,horseshoes,hand grenade's etc,etc,etc,
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 13, 2018, 07:52:36 AM
We have coaches who say "F you" to the recruits who they made promises to, and jump at the next better offer; so I don't see why we have a problem with players saying "F you" to their teammates and to the fans whose support pays for their scholarship.  But that's why I then also don't have a problem as a fan, saying from from a competition perspective, I don't like either the idea of big programs being able to pay to swing the balance even farther in their favor, or the idea of players skipping bowl games.  I can understand it, and not blame them for it, and still dislike it.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on December 13, 2018, 08:57:49 AM
I get that but the NFL is in that business.Fairly certain that it is not in a University Charter to advance a non-scholastic grid iron career
It's also already the case that P5 universities and ADs are financially insulated from one another and a bit of a joke that the ADs get the universities' tax exempt status anyway. Revenue sports aren't just business. They are BIG business.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 13, 2018, 09:21:26 AM
It's also already the case that P5 universities and ADs are financially insulated from one another and a bit of a joke that the ADs get the universities' tax exempt status anyway. Revenue sports aren't just business. They are BIG business.
At this point it's a bit hilarious that all of these large universities get tax exempt status period.  UM just bought the land that had always been the lumber store we went to for like $24 million.  They wrote a big check, and now 6.1 acres comes off the property tax ledger for the city.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 13, 2018, 09:29:09 AM
A tax exempt entity can of course make huge profits (at least in theory).  That status relates more to how the money is to be spent than that the entity is "nonprofit", which is usually misunderstood.

A thing I dislike is for some tax exempt entity to pay CEOs et al. huge sums (on which they pay income taxes of course).  I'd prefer to see some kind of limit on that as a function of the size of the entity.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Riffraft on December 13, 2018, 10:02:42 AM
Sports are about tribalism. Most people cheer for their tribe and care much less about how good their tribe is. Though it is always easier to cheer for a winning tribe.
This is the truth. Most people I know are fans of a team, a jersey, etc. not for the quality of the product. Would I be happy if Ohio State suddenly became bad? of course not. Would I stop watching? No.  As a life long fan of the Browns, too young to remember the last championship, I have never stopped rooting and watching them for the last 52 years in spite of how bad they have been since 1999.
Sorry nothing you all can say would convince me that most people would stop watching college football if they product lost 250 top end players.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 13, 2018, 10:16:56 AM
We wouldn't stop watching because we like CFB more than the average schlub.

The Chicago Maroons were once in the Big Ten. Today they play in front of sparse crowds.

 If pageantry and tradition were the driving force, then the Ivy League would have a gigantic TV contract. They don't. 



Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 13, 2018, 10:38:41 AM
A tax exempt entity can of course make huge profits (at least in theory).  That status relates more to how the money is to be spent than that the entity is "nonprofit", which is usually misunderstood.

A thing I dislike is for some tax exempt entity to pay CEOs et al. huge sums (on which they pay income taxes of course).  I'd prefer to see some kind of limit on that as a function of the size of the entity.
No I get that.
I just see a problem with that entity continuing to buy up an entire city.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 13, 2018, 01:56:53 PM
At the risk of putting the thread back on topic, Jones says he's playing. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 13, 2018, 02:18:57 PM
At the risk of putting the thread back on topic, Jones says he's playing.
Jones who?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 13, 2018, 02:57:13 PM
Dremont (sp?)
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 13, 2018, 03:06:05 PM
just because coaches do bad things doesn't make it ok for players to follow suit.

just because the NFL is paying players the caliber of Tebow and Mansiel way too much money doesn't mean it's the best thing for the NCAA

back in the 70s and 80s not many star players were sitting out bowl games.  not the only reason, but one reason is because the NFL wasn't paying rookies as much $$$
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 13, 2018, 05:48:24 PM
From RS Sophomore Tyler Biadasz:



Should Biadasz decide to enter the 2019 NFL Draft before the Pinstripe Bowl, sitting out his final collegiate game isn't an option.

"I want to play one more game with these guys," he said. "I've done too much stuff to not play with this group."
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 13, 2018, 07:04:32 PM
that's the attitude I would expect from these young men

I assume the agent is the chicken shit, counting his $$$
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 13, 2018, 11:29:28 PM
that's the attitude I would expect from these young men
Yep. People of good character do not turn their backs on their responsibilities. When you make a commitment, you honor it, and if you back out of that, you're selfish. It's black and white. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 13, 2018, 11:38:59 PM
agents are not people of good character
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 13, 2018, 11:48:34 PM
Yep. People of good character do not turn their backs on their responsibilities. When you make a commitment, you honor it, and if you back out of that, you're selfish. It's black and white.
Black and white? To steal a line from you, that’s some bull jive.
Responsibilities go beyond a team. You’re responsible to your family. “Mom, I know I said I’d provide for you, but I owed it to go play with my friends one more time. It was the Pinstripe Bowl.”
It’s at the very least complicated. Maybe it’s selfish to want to not jeopardize several hundred thousand dollars. Maybe a few million, especially when that’s not something you’ve been close to in your life. 
On the plus side, we know coaches are not people of good charecter. We got that settled at least. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 13, 2018, 11:53:51 PM
some gray there

some room between mom gets a Mercedes and mom gets enough to eat to survive
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 13, 2018, 11:54:15 PM
agents are not people of good character
In many cases, That’s true. But this sport is built on bad characters, from the NCAA structure at the top to the fans at the bottom. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 13, 2018, 11:54:44 PM
hopefully the coach's mom can sleep in a warm place
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 13, 2018, 11:55:50 PM
In many cases, That’s true. But this sport is built on bad characters, from the NCAA structure at the top to the fans at the bottom.
I'm not sure this is black or white either
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 14, 2018, 12:01:05 AM
I'm not sure this is black or white either
It's not. 
It's got some good, and some bad. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 14, 2018, 12:08:34 AM
some gray there

some room between mom gets a Mercedes and mom gets enough to eat to survive
Th psychology of that kind of thing is always interesting.
We're telling someone else how to act. I guess not really telling, more like loudly complaining and judging. This person should play in this game because it aligns with my sense of propriety. There's sort of a judgement, a person isn't entitled to what someone might pay them if they don't spend it the way we think they should. 
A few hundred grand is potentially life-changing money for a lot of folks. Sometimes it's not, often because of a lack of expertise in how to handle money. In some ways, it's not so surprising. If you put me behind the wheel of Badge's boat, I wouldn't know how to drive. If I was living lean all my life, I might not have a clue how to turn that much money into a sense of security. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 14, 2018, 12:13:10 AM
From RS Sophomore Tyler Biadasz:



Should Biadasz decide to enter the 2019 NFL Draft before the Pinstripe Bowl, sitting out his final collegiate game isn't an option.

"I want to play one more game with these guys," he said. "I've done too much stuff to not play with this group."

This is nice, a man made a choice about his life. His choice to make. Good on him. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 14, 2018, 12:18:24 AM
obviously there are different ways to act on playing in a bowl game

situations are different, we don't know and can't understand all the factors or the thinking

judging them isn't fair

but, fans will develop opinions w/o all the information

most fans would like to think the situation for the family monetarily isn't so grave as to bail on the program that gave them this opportunity for a small risk of injury

but, risk of injury is real
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 14, 2018, 06:24:28 AM

but, risk of injury is real
Real slim, yes. Probably should stay off that motor scooter too, eh?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 14, 2018, 06:42:55 AM
Black and white? To steal a line from you, that’s some bull jive.
Responsibilities go beyond a team. You’re responsible to your family. “Mom, I know I said I’d provide for you, but I owed it to go play with my friends one more time. It was the Pinstripe Bowl.”
It’s at the very least complicated. Maybe it’s selfish to want to not jeopardize several hundred thousand dollars. Maybe a few million, especially when that’s not something you’ve been close to in your life.
On the plus side, we know coaches are not people of good charecter. We got that settled at least.
It's my opinion and belief here - not everyone likes it. There is no gray, or bulljive.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 14, 2018, 08:40:04 AM
It's my opinion and belief here - not everyone likes it. There is no gray, or bulljive.
Fair enough. 
So we can say, it's black and white, Paul Chryst is a man of low character. College football is built on men of low character, and only the athletes can save it. We can also say putting family ahead of other things, sometimes a sign of low character. 
I know you'll tell me this is saying things you did not, but when things can't be gray, that's a thing that happens. Things lack flex. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2018, 08:42:46 AM
I saw mention today of the Senior Bowl.  I was also seeing various and sundry games for HS players out there, Army AA and whatnot.  Is the injury potential less in these games?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 14, 2018, 11:25:24 AM
Fair enough.
So we can say, it's black and white, Paul Chryst is a man of low character. College football is built on men of low character, and only the athletes can save it. We can also say putting family ahead of other things, sometimes a sign of low character.
I know you'll tell me this is saying things you did not, but when things can't be gray, that's a thing that happens. Things lack flex.
I never said things can't be gray. I simply said that my opinion and belief on the subtopic at hand is black and white. 

I happen to believe that Paul Chryst is a man of high character, by the way, but I could be wrong on that. There have been things in the past that didn't have a good look.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 14, 2018, 11:26:51 AM
I saw mention today of the Senior Bowl.  I was also seeing various and sundry games for HS players out there, Army AA and whatnot.  Is the injury potential less in these games?
No. A player could get injured in any game. Or any practice. Or any workout. Or on any icy street walking to class.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 14, 2018, 12:34:31 PM
I never said things can't be gray. I simply said that my opinion and belief on the subtopic at hand is black and white.

I happen to believe that Paul Chryst is a man of high character, by the way, but I could be wrong on that. There have been things in the past that didn't have a good look.
Fair enough
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 14, 2018, 12:40:43 PM
I saw mention today of the Senior Bowl.  I was also seeing various and sundry games for HS players out there, Army AA and whatnot.  Is the injury potential less in these games?
 Well, these are kind of two different scenarios. 
 The high school all-star games don’t really have a direct effect on much.  If I tear my ACL in that, there is a slim chance I will lose my scholarship, but if I’m good   Enough to play in one, it’s very slim. 
The senior bowl is more interesting.  The important part of that  event is really the practices. I’m guessing if someone had really big injury worries, they probably feign some kind of minor bump or bruise.  There is also a good chance they will play many fewer snaps in the senior bowl as compared to actual bowl. 
 The most simple part of it, is that the decision makers who make the picks and hand out the obnoxious salaries feel those practices are important, and do not treat bowls in the same manner. If future employers  placed a level of importance on ballgames, this wouldn’t even be a thing. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on December 14, 2018, 01:00:51 PM
The high school all-star games don’t really have a direct effect on much.  If I tear my ACL in that, there is a slim chance I will lose my scholarship, but if I’m good   Enough to play in one, it’s very slim.
The senior bowl is more interesting.  The important part of that  event is really the practices. I’m guessing if someone had really big injury worries, they probably feign some kind of minor bump or bruise.  There is also a good chance they will play many fewer snaps in the senior bowl as compared to actual bowl.
Also note that not participating in either the high-school all-star games nor the senior bowl has any impact on your teammates. This is not choosing to play a game with the guys in the locker room that you've gone to war with for the entirety of spring practice, summer workouts, and a grueling season.
Not so sure on the high-school all-star game. But the senior bowl, to me, is often an audition for 2nd-tier NFL hopefuls trying to get noticed and improve their draft stock. I honestly don't know how often the projected 1st-rounders actually play in that game. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 14, 2018, 02:32:37 PM
Yeah, the Senior Bowl strikes me as a try out.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Benthere2 on December 18, 2018, 05:22:13 PM
so is there a list or do you have to go through all the pages and get info here and there?
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 18, 2018, 07:08:06 PM
FAU RB Singletary leaving early.  No all-time rushing TD record for him, I guess.
Memphis RB who averaged 8.9 ypc this year, Henderson, coming out early.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 19, 2018, 02:52:17 PM
Justin Layne officially skipping the bowl game for MSU
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 19, 2018, 03:54:35 PM
Obviously becoming common place.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 19, 2018, 04:33:09 PM
Justin Layne officially skipping the bowl game for MSU
Thank goodness he played in that Rutgers game.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 20, 2018, 09:27:29 AM
Given how many "one's" are sitting out, how many "two's" are almost as good?  I realize this hurts depth, but perhaps these twos have more to play for now, and can come out highly motivated and be better than a more experienced one who is going through motions.

And even freshmen at this point have decent game experience if they have talent.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 20, 2018, 09:39:30 AM
For MSU, having Layne sit really hurts.

Josiah Scott played in 4 games this year, missing the first 8 with injury.  He sits the game, he comes back next year as a redshirt sophomore, he plays, he's going to be a junior.  Sounds like he's playing.  Tyson Smith retired in August due to ongoing medical issues.  Josh Butler hasn't been cleared to play yet.

So of the two deep we went into camp with, the only one who could play has to burn a redshirt to do so.  Sounds like we have a bunch of little used 2nd year guys back there with Shakur Brown, Tre Person and Dominique Long.  We could also play true freshman Kalon Gervin without burning his redshirt.  Not exactly the secondary you want to throw out there against the guy projected to be the first QB taken in the draft next year if he comes out.

As for other teams, it's mixed.  I don't think Michigan misses Gary at all, I didn't notice when he did or didn't play this year.  Higdon is the big loss, particularly with Samuels getting booted off the team last week.  Evans is not an every down back.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 20, 2018, 11:47:18 AM
Maybe bowl games are just glorified spring games.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 20, 2018, 11:58:28 AM
Maybe bowl games are just glorified spring games.
Players don't sit out Spring games.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Entropy on December 20, 2018, 12:08:49 PM
I'm not sure i'd burn a redshirt for a bowl game
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MaximumSam on December 20, 2018, 12:20:55 PM
Players don't sit out Spring games.
Players sit out the Spring game all the time
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 20, 2018, 12:56:15 PM
Players sit out the Spring game all the time
If injured, or if the coaches decide to sit them, yes. It's not their own decision, and if it was, they'd be gone anyway.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 20, 2018, 12:56:45 PM
I'm not sure i'd burn a redshirt for a bowl game
I would, if my team needed me.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: ELA on December 20, 2018, 12:57:07 PM
I'm not sure i'd burn a redshirt for a bowl game
MD said he'd leave it up to the player and his family.  Good chance he's not sticking around for a 5th year anyway.  He was better than Layne, both last year and this, when he was actually playing.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: Cincydawg on December 20, 2018, 01:18:45 PM
I do not think any player chooses on his own to sit out a spring game.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 20, 2018, 02:37:17 PM
I'm not sure i'd burn a redshirt for a bowl game
seems foolish
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: rolltidefan on December 20, 2018, 03:08:05 PM
i really don't like players sitting out bowls. not that anyone cares what i think.

but i liken it to players transferring midseason. you're quitting on your teammates. going back on a commitment.

i do understand why they do both. there's a risk to their careers (either injury or lack of play time), which i can appreciate. but i don't understand what suddenly made this 1 game more risky than the last couple of the season?

for the transfers, i think there's a relatively easy fix - make it 5 years to play 5 - but not going to get into that here.

on players sitting out, i have no idea how to fix it. i know if i were a gm i'd be cautious drafting a player that sat out. i wouldn't drop them completely just for that, but it'd definitely be a red flag and i'd want it discussed with the player.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 20, 2018, 04:15:27 PM
I'm not sure i'd burn a redshirt for a bowl game
As a kid? Or a coach? 
His dad seems real excited, and to be honest, his dad should be the most concerned. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MaximumSam on December 20, 2018, 05:32:33 PM
If injured, or if the coaches decide to sit them, yes. It's not their own decision, and if it was, they'd be gone anyway.
That's because the universities don't make much money on spring games
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 21, 2018, 05:04:33 PM
except for the one in Lincoln NE
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: SuperMario on December 22, 2018, 11:47:10 AM
Yep. People of good character do not turn their backs on their responsibilities. When you make a commitment, you honor it, and if you back out of that, you're selfish. It's black and white.
Likely the best post on the entire forum.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 22, 2018, 11:51:28 AM
Likely the best post on the entire forum.
As long as this holds true, we argree almost every coach is not a person of good charecter. Glad that’s black and white. 
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 22, 2018, 03:57:40 PM
I think there is more good than bad in that business. But, the bad ones are REALLY bad.


Coaches are hired to eventually be fired, and they all know it. Some leave before it happens. Many more don't.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: MaximumSam on December 22, 2018, 04:52:45 PM
It's really just the sense of entitlement. Colleges want the benefit, but they don't want to pay the costs.  If amateurism is what we live by, then the colleges should support players sitting out once they are ready to be professional.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 22, 2018, 05:19:30 PM
If they are ready to be professional, they should just leave. You're on your own, kiddo pro. Go shop at Kroger for your food and work out at the Y like all the other Joes.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 23, 2018, 12:54:33 AM
As long as this holds true, we argree almost every coach is not a person of good charecter. Glad that’s black and white.
I think it's just a matter of coaches having to take chances on kids.  They don't want to, and they can be successful up to a point without doing it, but you can't go 7-5 every year with nice boys and keep your job.  So you start taking the kids who seem redeemable or the ones that are good at hiding their warts, then get blindsided by their behaviors.  Then you act wise to it all and try to go with the non-violent offenders who "only" smoke weed and have 2 kids, etc etc.
Sign innocent kids who try real hard and lose your job in 2 years, move down 2 levels and go 10-2 every year at Valdosta State, or do what everyone else does and try to win something special before it all goes to hell.
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 23, 2018, 12:56:05 AM
This is why I said none of us would even be decent HCs at a helmet school in that other thread.  There's so much peripheral BS, and plenty more that we don't even know about, that the Xs and Os would become irrelevant.  
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 23, 2018, 09:24:07 AM
there are plenty of good coaches out there

fine characters

plenty of good players as well

it's just that we concentrate on the bad

and the people we're talking about on this thread are not horrible, just selfish and trying to protect themselves
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: bayareabadger on December 23, 2018, 09:37:56 AM
I think it's just a matter of coaches having to take chances on kids.  They don't want to, and they can be successful up to a point without doing it, but you can't go 7-5 every year with nice boys and keep your job.  So you start taking the kids who seem redeemable or the ones that are good at hiding their warts, then get blindsided by their behaviors.  Then you act wise to it all and try to go with the non-violent offenders who "only" smoke weed and have 2 kids, etc etc.
Sign innocent kids who try real hard and lose your job in 2 years, move down 2 levels and go 10-2 every year at Valdosta State, or do what everyone else does and try to win something special before it all goes to hell.
I meant because many abandon their teams for the bowls. Their responsibilities break before the kids’. Sometimes they even raid their former coaching staffs.  
Title: Re: List of players sitting out their bowl game
Post by: FearlessF on December 23, 2018, 09:47:11 AM
from this week in Husker history:

1933: Nebraska’s Dana X. Bible becomes president of the American Football Coaches' Association, and the group decides to investigate “unfair” firings of coaches.
 
1948: Pay for play? Nebraska coach George “Potsy” Clark says it's counterproductive.