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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Temp430 on November 05, 2018, 06:37:17 AM

Title: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: Temp430 on November 05, 2018, 06:37:17 AM
Kickoff is at Noon and the opening line is Ohio State -3.5.    Both teams got their running game going this past Saturday.  Should be a good one.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (3-3, 6-3)
Post by: Cincydawg on November 05, 2018, 07:38:27 AM
Ohio State appears to be a flawed team at the moment (duh) and I have a hunch the issues are in the "clubhouse".

MSU 24  OSU 16
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (3-3, 6-3)
Post by: Temp430 on November 05, 2018, 07:51:28 AM
Ya, they're singing "I don't give a damn about the whole State of Michigan.." a little softer in Ohio right now.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (3-3, 6-3)
Post by: MrNubbz on November 05, 2018, 07:52:58 AM
Um,no they're not :cheer:
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (3-3, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 05, 2018, 08:55:00 AM
Biggest determinant IMO will be if Michigan State can continue to get as much pressure with 4 as they have the past two weekends.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (3-3, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 05, 2018, 09:19:50 AM
Go green!
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 05, 2018, 09:34:42 AM
Has Jeslord Boateng seen any action? 
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on November 05, 2018, 09:35:14 AM
Go White!
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 05, 2018, 10:01:34 AM
Has Jeslord Boateng seen any action?
No, he's redshirting, and doesn't seem to be on the short list of guys they were going to sneak into <4 games.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 05, 2018, 10:05:47 AM
Gotcha. Thanks. 
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 05, 2018, 11:01:22 AM
What's the weather report for this game?  It feels like a complete slog, so we'll see if the weather matches up.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 05, 2018, 11:05:47 AM
What's the weather report for this game?  It feels like a complete slog, so we'll see if the weather matches up.
Cold, but dry.  Temps might be in the upper 20s at kick, but sunny.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on November 05, 2018, 11:11:33 AM
Sparty has the #1 rushing defense, #22 total defense.  The Buckeyes have the #3 passing offense.  All per NCAA.com stats.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 05, 2018, 11:14:52 AM
Um,no they're not :cheer:
Best damn chant in all of sports. 
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 05, 2018, 11:15:15 AM
Sparty has the #1 rushing defense, #22 total defense.  The Buckeyes have the #3 passing offense.  All per NCAA.com stats.
S&P+ defense rose from #14 to #7 this week.  They haven't done the more extensive breakdowns yet.  Last week they were #2 Run Defense S&P+, #40 in Pass D.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Cincydawg on November 05, 2018, 11:21:23 AM
Can anyone play football at all in sub-freezing temperatures?  I thought they'd just cancel it or move it inside or something.

Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 05, 2018, 12:18:19 PM
FWIW, all the hand wringing about MSU's defense post Narduzzi, they finished #4 in S&P+ in 2017, and currently sit at #7.  Not too shabby
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 05, 2018, 12:31:18 PM
OSU switched from a RPO heavy offense to adding more jet sweep action to help the running game.  I wonder if they use even less RPO action - Haskins has a noted issue of never wanting to hand off if he has an option to chuck it.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 05, 2018, 12:40:42 PM
I would say, once you accept the idea that your team kind of sucks, and the pressure is off, it is fun to root for them without much in the way of expectations.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 05, 2018, 12:43:51 PM
I would say, once you accept the idea that your team kind of sucks, and the pressure is off, it is fun to root for them without much in the way of expectations.
It's even more fun when your expectations can be raised to the point of being 8-1, ranked #8, in control of your Big Ten championship destiny qualifies as "kind of sucks"
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 05, 2018, 12:52:59 PM
It's even more fun when your expectations can be raised to the point of being 8-1, ranked #8, in control of your Big Ten championship destiny qualifies as "kind of sucks"
It's been a wacky season.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 05, 2018, 12:57:55 PM

Bama envy is causing a lot of OSU fans to disrelish one of the greatest decades in Buckeye history. 
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 05, 2018, 01:10:31 PM
Bama envy is causing a lot of OSU fans to disrelish one of the greatest decades in Buckeye history.
Oh, overall they've been great.  But this is easily one of the Urban's weakest teams, and the weakest since his first year.  His first year was super fun, because they had no expectations, went undefeated, and were precluded from the postseason so they didn't have to be whipped on a national stage.  The 2014 team was ultra fun, because there were no expectations, and they ended up being extremely good and they were champs.
What I'm saying is expectations can really sour the fun on a season.  I came in thinking they would be really good.  They ain't, and now that we can all see that, it's a lot more fun.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on November 05, 2018, 01:39:08 PM
(https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.99k_oJBvTqS54KBSFjb_QwHaEK&pid=Api)

Nov. 21, 2015 - Special team
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on November 05, 2018, 01:49:57 PM
Go green!
Go White!
Close the door please carrion eating skunk weasels are belching forth
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on November 05, 2018, 01:52:29 PM
Can anyone play football at all in sub-freezing temperatures?  I thought they'd just cancel it or move it inside or something.


What do you think they're not a bunch of  Georgia drivers
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 05, 2018, 01:54:01 PM
Kind of interesting - for B1G purposes, UM is all green.  But for playoff purposes, seems they should be pro-Buckeye.  
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 05, 2018, 01:57:06 PM
I'm glad that the Ttun fans are little brothering in favor of Sparty instead of OSU. 
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 05, 2018, 02:05:28 PM
Were I instead an MSU fan, I wouldn't be too delighted about having the Maize and Blue in my corner. 

That's like a game of hot potato in this match up. 
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on November 05, 2018, 02:08:46 PM
Well, it feels like an upset waiting to happen. Until I start to think about it.  I hope Sparty’s DBs can step it up.  Haskins is going to be throwing it a bunch and he has lots of talent at the other end.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Honestbuckeye on November 05, 2018, 02:17:56 PM
OSU switched from a RPO heavy offense to adding more jet sweep action to help the running game.  I wonder if they use even less RPO action - Haskins has a noted issue of never wanting to hand off if he has an option to chuck it.
good observation. I don't think Ohio State ran many, if any RPO against Nebraska.  Everything was a called pass, often off play action, or a called run.  The OL had been struggling for the reasons you mentioned.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 05, 2018, 04:07:31 PM
Kind of interesting - for B1G purposes, UM is all green.  But for playoff purposes, seems they should be pro-Buckeye.  
I dont think it matters.  They win out, they are in, they don't, they are out.  But at least a Big Ten title and a Rose Bowl are a nice consolation prize in that scenario.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 05, 2018, 04:09:03 PM
The relative strength of Ohio State's offense is passing and the relative weakness of Michigan State's defense is passing so I hope that:

As an Ohio State fan I'd rather see us throw the ball 70+ times than see us end up in a slew of third and eight situations after two runs for two yards against MSU's D.  

On the other side of the ball I think the key is turnovers (not that turnovers aren't important both ways).  Ohio State's defense has given up lots of yards to pretty much every competent offense they have faced but they have usually at least partially made up for it with turnovers.  The notable exceptions are the past two weeks when Ohio State has forced just one turnover in two games.  
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: FearlessF on November 05, 2018, 04:27:47 PM
that turnover Saturday wasn't forced, it was given

bonehead comes to mind
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 05, 2018, 04:29:34 PM
I dont think it matters.  They win out, they are in, they don't, they are out.  But at least a Big Ten title and a Rose Bowl are a nice consolation prize in that scenario.
Most likely, yes.  But if Oklahoma wins out and looks good doing it, or Georgia wins the SEC, or even Washington State or UCF win out, Michigan would like to have some nice wins in their pack pocket for argument's sake.  If the best win is over a crappy looking 9-3 or 8-4 OSU team, that ain't going to be of much impact for voters.  Also, seeding is an issue - getting a three seed would be preferable to a four seed this year if Alabama continues to kill people.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 05, 2018, 04:38:12 PM
https://twitter.com/SolidVerbal/status/1059137273780940800
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 05, 2018, 04:39:46 PM
Who will suck less - OSUs defense or MSU's offense?
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 05, 2018, 04:42:01 PM
I'd bet on the 2nd worst offense sucking more than the 6th best defense.

So can the 2nd best defense shut down the best offense?  If Purdue can do it, there's hope.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 05, 2018, 04:46:12 PM
I'd bet on the 2nd worst offense sucking more than the 6th best defense.

So can the 2nd best defense shut down the best offense?  If Purdue can do it, there's hope.
Not saying that Purdue didn't do it, but it is important to clarify how they did it.  Ohio State got plenty of yards against the Boilermakers but just Purdue flat out shut them down in the red zone.  
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 05, 2018, 05:20:20 PM
Haskins broke Art Schlichter's single game passing record vs the Boilermakers, which had also been set in a loss. 
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 05, 2018, 08:42:20 PM
Most likely, yes.  But if Oklahoma wins out and looks good doing it, or Georgia wins the SEC, or even Washington State or UCF win out, Michigan would like to have some nice wins in their pack pocket for argument's sake.  If the best win is over a crappy looking 9-3 or 8-4 OSU team, that ain't going to be of much impact for voters.  Also, seeding is an issue - getting a three seed would be preferable to a four seed this year if Alabama continues to kill people.
The seeding point matters, but nobody thinks Michigan controls its own destiny to the #3 seed. That would inevitably require help -- for Clemson or ND to lose. We're just arguing that M controls its destiny to #4.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 05, 2018, 08:44:45 PM
The seeding point matters, but nobody thinks Michigan controls its own destiny to the #3 seed. That would inevitably require help -- for Clemson or ND to lose. We're just arguing that M controls its destiny to #4.
Well, they don't
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 05, 2018, 11:54:15 PM
Well, they don't
I'll call Oklahoma flatly irrelevant if Michigan wins out. Maybe Alabama+Georgia *could* finish above if UGa wins out, but only to the extent that neither Michigan nor UGa technically controls its own fate.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 06, 2018, 06:20:18 AM
Georgia definitely controls its own destiny.  If they win out they are in and the question is if Alabama drops out.  I certainly wouldn't call Oklahoma irrelevant.  If they have a stretch like Michigan just had they are right in the conversation, plus they end with likely two games against West Virginia.  That's why I'm sayung Michigan would probably want a good looking OSU team on its resume, which in margin of victory is strong but in quality of opponent is very not strong.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on November 06, 2018, 06:33:11 AM
Ya well I'm not mailing the season in as fodder for M's resume.It's on to E.L.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 06, 2018, 06:34:46 AM
Actually on checking their schedules I'm not sure Michigan wants an OSU victory.  There's a legit shot that OSU is the only ranked team it will have a win over by the end of the season.  Is it better to have one win over a top ten type outfit or 3 wins over top 15-25 type outfits?  Not sure about that but I'm leaning to the latter.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 06, 2018, 07:12:50 AM
Actually on checking their schedules I'm not sure Michigan wants an OSU victory.  There's a legit shot that OSU is the only ranked team it will have a win over by the end of the season.  Is it better to have one win over a top ten type outfit or 3 wins over top 15-25 type outfits?  Not sure about that but I'm leaning to the latter.
This is an interesting question.  
I am starting to think that Oklahoma is a factor and it is largely because of the debacle in the B1G-W.  Northwestern is now 5-4, unranked, and in control in the B1G-W.  If they lose to Iowa this weekend they will drop to just 5-5 but they will still control their own destiny in the B1G-W.  This is a disaster for the B1G-E Champion if said B1G-E Champ needs a quality win in the B1GCG.  A 7-5 Northwestern team that lost by two TD's at home to Dook, at home to Akron, at home to Michigan, at home to Notre Dame, and at Iowa would not be a quality opponent.  
Note that:
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on November 06, 2018, 10:38:47 AM
Who will suck less - OSUs defense or MSU's offense?
that's the $64,000 question.
MSU's defense is excellent. They have to D to make it an ugly, low scoring game. And it's at home. Flip a coin.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: FearlessF on November 06, 2018, 10:54:24 AM
A 7-5 Northwestern team that lost by two TD's at home to Dook, at home to Akron, at home to Michigan, at home to Notre Dame, and at Iowa would not be a quality opponent.  

add to this the fact that Northwestern could give the east champ a helluva close game in Indy
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 06, 2018, 12:09:14 PM
C Matt Allen still out, although I actually think the walk on backup Blake Beuter has been better.  Wouldn't mind sliding Allen over to guard when he is healthy.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2018, 02:13:23 PM
It's unoriginal, but I'm intensely curious of OSU's offensive philosophy. Do they (A) do the far-sighted thing and continue to try to fix the broken run game versus an overwhelming mismatch ... or do they (B) pause that renaissance try to go strength versus weakness and predominantly pass?

I think Michigan fans should either want B or failure at A. The worst case scenario for Michigan is for OSU to actually remember how to have an elite run game.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 06, 2018, 02:29:47 PM
It's unoriginal, but I'm intensely curious of OSU's offensive philosophy. Do they (A) do the far-sighted thing and continue to try to fix the broken run game versus an overwhelming mismatch ... or do they (B) pause that renaissance try to go strength versus weakness and predominantly pass?

I think Michigan fans should either want B or failure at A. The worst case scenario for Michigan is for OSU to actually remember how to have an elite run game.
I think you are dead on here.  If Ohio State somehow conjures up an elite running game they'll win easily until THE GAME and even that will be something close to a toss-up.  Even a middling running game would make the Buckeyes too much for MSU and UMD and something close to a match for the Wolverines.  The thing is, this late in the season, I don't think an elite running game is going to suddenly appear wearing scarlet and gray.  
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on November 06, 2018, 03:08:17 PM
I think you are dead on here.  If Ohio State somehow conjures up an elite running game they'll win easily until THE GAME and even that will be something close to a toss-up.  Even a middling running game would make the Buckeyes too much for MSU and UMD and something close to a match for the Wolverines.  The thing is, this late in the season, I don't think an elite running game is going to suddenly appear wearing scarlet and gray.  
this is how I feel as well. Running game is something that you build through the course of a season. Not something you just magically turn into elite with 3 weeks left to go.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 06, 2018, 03:14:30 PM
It's unoriginal, but I'm intensely curious of OSU's offensive philosophy. Do they (A) do the far-sighted thing and continue to try to fix the broken run game versus an overwhelming mismatch ... or do they (B) pause that renaissance try to go strength versus weakness and predominantly pass?

I think Michigan fans should either want B or failure at A. The worst case scenario for Michigan is for OSU to actually remember how to have an elite run game.
I think of all the things, an Urban Meyer team not trying to run the ball is extremely unlikely.  Not saying they are going to try and pound it against Sparty, but I don't anticipate them abandoning the run game against anyone unless they are down by a big score.  
But still, the line is pretty average run blocking and I don't expect that to change.  They get their yards mostly by chucking it, and that will continue.  If the defense could sort itself out, they could have something.  But that seems like a pretty dreamy wish.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 06, 2018, 03:15:49 PM
this is how I feel as well. Running game is something that you build through the course of a season. Not something you just magically turn into elite with 3 weeks left to go.
I think it will be much improved, but not elite.  Sort of like what Michigan did - by sprinkling in some Shea running they greatly improved their rushing attack.  OSU can't do that, but they can do some things that make it much harder to defend the run game, and they showed some against Nebraska.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on November 06, 2018, 03:25:50 PM
I think it will be much improved, but not elite.  Sort of like what Michigan did - by sprinkling in some Shea running they greatly improved their rushing attack.  OSU can't do that, but they can do some things that make it much harder to defend the run game, and they showed some against Nebraska.
I think the combination of Ed Warriner and Shea's threat as a runner has really opened up the M rushing attack greatly.
Meyer has never had a QB this talented from purely a throwing standpoint. But he's always had QB's that were mobile and the QB run game was always a huge part of his offense. Even back in the day with Harris at BG and Alex Smith at Utah.
Really his worst seasons at Florida were when the greatest RB/QB he ever had- Tebow- left- and Meyer tried going with the 5* pro-style passer Brantley. They were horrible on offense and the team took a nosedive. Meyer should really just stay away from the pocket passers. It's not good for his health. Literally.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 06, 2018, 03:27:54 PM
Josh Butler still out, so even with Josiah Scott back, still likely too much Tre Person on the field.

Also Lewerke back to #1, with no OR with Rocky, and L.J. Scott listed as #1 RB after missing the Maryland game entirely.  Wouldn't think I'd say this, but I'm not sure I'm glad we get a backfield of Lewerke/Scott over Lombardi/Heyward
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2018, 03:49:27 PM
Georgia definitely controls its own destiny.  If they win out they are in and the question is if Alabama drops out.  I certainly wouldn't call Oklahoma irrelevant.  If they have a stretch like Michigan just had they are right in the conversation, plus they end with likely two games against West Virginia.  That's why I'm sayung Michigan would probably want a good looking OSU team on its resume, which in margin of victory is strong but in quality of opponent is very not strong.
I'm not convinced a 1-loss UGa would pass Michigan. And I suspect the odds of OU doing it are significantly more scarce.

I suppose any odds greater than 0.00 are incompatible with "controlling one's fate," in which case neither M, nor the Bama/Bulldog loser, nor OU controls its fate. Which means I have to technically agree with you despite disagreeing in spirit.

Ha, but ya know, now that I'm recalling something -- how vehemently you argued that OSU/PSU would unquestionably finish as the most important Big Ten game of the year (conversation dated to the week after M toppled UW) -- I have to be OK with the clash. Your grasp of the season-to-date and what's next is more questionable than in past season's.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2018, 03:54:18 PM
this is how I feel as well. Running game is something that you build through the course of a season. Not something you just magically turn into elite with 3 weeks left to go.
If I didn't have so much respect for that roster and Urban's offensive chops, I'd say the same.
But...
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2018, 03:57:25 PM
I think of all the things, an Urban Meyer team not trying to run the ball is extremely unlikely.  Not saying they are going to try and pound it against Sparty, but I don't anticipate them abandoning the run game against anyone unless they are down by a big score.  
But still, the line is pretty average run blocking and I don't expect that to change.  They get their yards mostly by chucking it, and that will continue.  If the defense could sort itself out, they could have something.  But that seems like a pretty dreamy wish.
To clarify: I was not talking about quitting the run outright. I was distinguishing between (A) trying until it works (no matter what) and (B) trying just enough to say you did then going trough the air to win.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2018, 04:02:51 PM
I think it will be much improved, but not elite.  Sort of like what Michigan did - by sprinkling in some Shea running they greatly improved their rushing attack.  OSU can't do that
Haskins having Navarre-like mobility is a complication, but of course OSU can still do the read-option run game if they play Tate Martell. In the red zone, for example.
(...) but they can do some things that make it much harder to defend the run game, and they showed some against Nebraska.
They did. Of course, UNL is 92nd in S&P+ run D. Which confounds an easy interpretation. For transparency, I think you could be right. I just think it's premature to conclude it.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2018, 04:07:30 PM
A comment about all of this "Urban has never successfully done the pocket passer thing" debate. That's obvious hogwash, right? Anyone remember Chris Leak?

Of course, that would seem to further argue for young Tate Martell packages in the red zone (just as Leak had with TrFr Tebow)
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Cincydawg on November 06, 2018, 04:19:36 PM
I was ready to chalk up the Purdue game to "one of those things" against an improving Purdue team.  But, after the Nebraska game, I revised my revisions.  I don't think OSU is very good.  They might be an OK team, one with a lot of apparent talent, but they are not an upper echelon team in my view.

This of course means they will beat Michigan.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on November 06, 2018, 04:52:03 PM
A comment about all of this "Urban has never successfully done the pocket passer thing" debate. That's obvious hogwash, right? Anyone remember Chris Leak?

Of course, that would seem to further argue for young Tate Martell packages in the red zone (just as Leak had with TrFr Tebow)
Leak was mobile enough, he wasn't a pocket statue like Brantley or Haskins. Urban also sprinkled in a lot of packages that featured Tebow both rushing and throwing in 2006. Especially on short yardage and red zone situations. Tebow scored 14 total TD's passing and rushing that year.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on November 06, 2018, 04:52:48 PM
I was ready to chalk up the Purdue game to "one of those things" against an improving Purdue team.  But, after the Nebraska game, I revised my revisions.  I don't think OSU is very good.  They might be an OK team, one with a lot of apparent talent, but they are not an upper echelon team in my view.

This of course means they will beat Michigan.
(https://vevmo.com/sites/default/files/upload/take-that-back-now.jpg) (https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi8xtOm4MDeAhWE21MKHc2vDkMQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fvevmo.com%2Fimage%2Ftake-back-nowjpg&psig=AOvVaw3UY8NKmiDHyu-eaE_DySAm&ust=1541627543991473)
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 06, 2018, 05:01:49 PM
I suppose any odds greater than 0.00 are incompatible with "controlling one's fate," in which case neither M, nor the Bama/Bulldog loser, nor OU controls its fate. Which means I have to technically agree with you despite disagreeing in spirit.
FWIW:  When I use the term "controls their own destiny" this is the definition that I am almost always using (I try to point it out if I am using some other definition).  Thus, when I said a few weeks ago that I was not certain that Michigan controlled their own destiny I meant that I thought there was a non-zero chance that a 12-1 B1G Champion Michigan team *COULD* potentially be left out of the playoff because:
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on November 06, 2018, 05:05:26 PM
FWIW:  When I use the term "controls their own destiny" this is the definition that I am almost always using (I try to point it out if I am using some other definition).  Thus, when I said a few weeks ago that I was not certain that Michigan controlled their own destiny I meant that I thought there was a non-zero chance that a 12-1 B1G Champion Michigan team *COULD* potentially be left out of the playoff because:
  • An undefeated Bama would be ahead of them.  
  • An undefeated Clemson would be ahead of them.  
  • An undefeated Notre Dame would be ahead of them.  
  • A one-loss SEC Champion UGA would be ahead of them.  
  • A one-loss non-Champion Bama *MIGHT* be ahead of them.  
  • A one-loss B12 Champion OU *Might* be ahead of them.  
Don't see it.
If Michigan is 12-1, they are in imo. Hard to leave them out when their only loss would've been a 1 score loss ON THE ROAD, AT NIGHT, in the season OPENER with a brand new OL coach and brand new QB that had yet to really gel. Not to mention if ND makes the playoff their only loss would've been to a playoff team.
Would be floored if they got left out if they finished 12-1.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2018, 05:19:42 PM
FWIW:  When I use the term "controls their own destiny" this is the definition that I am almost always using (I try to point it out if I am using some other definition).  Thus, when I said a few weeks ago that I was not certain that Michigan controlled their own destiny I meant that I thought there was a non-zero chance that a 12-1 B1G Champion Michigan team *COULD* potentially be left out of the playoff because:
  • An undefeated Bama would be ahead of them.  
  • An undefeated Clemson would be ahead of them.  
  • An undefeated Notre Dame would be ahead of them.  
  • A one-loss SEC Champion UGA would be ahead of them.  
  • A one-loss non-Champion Bama *MIGHT* be ahead of them.  
  • A one-loss B12 Champion OU *Might* be ahead of them.  

And so long as we specify that, under this rigorous definition, fewer than 4 teams control their destiny for a 4-team playoff, I'm good with the claim that Michigan doesn't control its.
The next logical step for the conversation is which candidate has a plurality of the probability points to be the #4 team if the top three stay locked? And though the chances aren't 1.000 and may or may not even be 0.500, I'd say the highest probability is Michigan's.
And perhaps based on last week's rankings, the CFP committee agrees. Of course, their fickleness is famous ...
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 06, 2018, 06:08:27 PM
I think we are confusing too different concepts. They are likely to be in if they win out, based on math. They do not control their own destiny, in the sense that them winning out makes them impervious to all other teams.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2018, 06:31:35 PM
I don't think we are confusing these concepts. I just think we favor different stringencies. I think there's a 99+% chance that M is in if it wins out. By practical definition, that's controlling one's destiny. Yours is more mathematically rigorous, which I respect logically but find less useful.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 06, 2018, 06:40:39 PM
I don't think we are confusing these concepts. I just think we favor different stringencies. I think there's a 99+% chance that M is in if it wins out. By practical definition, that's controlling one's destiny. Yours is more mathematically rigorous, which I respect logically but find less useful.
I mean by probability, it is unlikely that all these teams win out. It is unlikely Georgia beats alabama, they and Notre Dame otherwise win out. If that does happen, Michigan is probably out. Is the chance of that happening over 1 percent? Probably.
Other scenarios that oklahoma looks great, Michigan doesn't, and Michigan's opponents crap themselves down the stretch. Also hardly outside the realm of possibility.
So yes, definitely think it's overstating the case to say Michigan when there are very real circumstances that would keep them out.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on November 06, 2018, 07:31:37 PM
I mean by probability, it is unlikely that all these teams win out. It is unlikely Georgia beats alabama, they and Notre Dame otherwise win out. If that does happen, Michigan is probably out. Is the chance of that happening over 1 percent? Probably.
Other scenarios that oklahoma looks great, Michigan doesn't, and Michigan's opponents crap themselves down the stretch. Also hardly outside the realm of possibility.
So yes, definitely think it's overstating the case to say Michigan when there are very real circumstances that would keep them out.
Nah.If Michigan wins out, they are in. Big if. That Ohio State is in Columbus. That's a huge hurdle they have to overcome.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 06, 2018, 07:37:22 PM
Wishful thinking. The problem is Michigan's best win is basically what Alabama has done in every game. It's hard to envision the committee leaving them out.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on November 06, 2018, 07:44:20 PM
Wishful thinking. The problem is Michigan's best win is basically what Alabama has done in every game. It's hard to envision the committee leaving them out.
Michigan State, Penn State, and Ohio State will all more than likely finish the regular season ranked in the Top 25. Michigan also played a top 4 ND team in a very close game on the road, at night, to open the season.
Alabama is looking at probably only LSU being ranked. Forget win. Only TEAM they'll have played that finished the season ranked. They are about to spank Miss State and knock them out of the top 25. Then they have The Citadel and Auburn- who sucks. Only team on their schedule that will be ranked is LSU, and LSU isn't done losing yet. They were severely overranked and their QB/offense flat out sucks.
Title: Re: #8 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #24 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 06, 2018, 09:20:12 PM
Yeah, Michigan's SOS is far superior to Bama's. If Bama loses once, they may well fall behind Michigan. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Reyd on November 06, 2018, 11:32:50 PM
Michigan controls it's destiny. The football gods control their fate. Semantics guys.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: bayareabadger on November 07, 2018, 12:53:03 AM
I can’t shake the feeling that I won’t crown Michigan until the clock says 0:00 and they’re up on Nov. 24

Until then, I assume OSU will spoil 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 07, 2018, 02:22:30 AM
Yeah, Michigan's SOS is far superior to Bama's. If Bama loses once, they may well fall behind Michigan.
wut
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 07, 2018, 07:09:23 AM
Haskins having Navarre-like mobility is a complication, but of course OSU can still do the read-option run game if they play Tate Martell. In the red zone, for example.They did. Of course, UNL is 92nd in S&P+ run D. Which confounds an easy interpretation. For transparency, I think you could be right. I just think it's premature to conclude it.
Oh, I don't expect some monstrous run game all of a sudden.  However, they were mostly trotting out last year's run playbook, along with some RPO's, and that wasn't working without a rushing quarterback who always wants to throw.  So they moved to some newer stuff that is more in line with having a dropback quarterback, and they were improved.  In any event, the offense hasn't been an issue - they are 3rd by S&p+ and have only had one game where they gained fewer than 480 yards.  
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on November 07, 2018, 07:59:56 AM
No he doesn't he was sacked 5.5 X and hurried god knows how many times.When you rush the ball 25 X and get 12 yds kinda tells the story of who controlled the Line of Scrimmage.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 07, 2018, 08:15:55 AM
wut
To-date, Michigan has played a better group of teams than Alabama. Full stop.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 07, 2018, 08:20:40 AM
Michigan's SOS according to Bill Connelly: 23rd
Alabama's: 57th
Before LSU this weekend, the Tide hadn't built their resume on *anything* except MOV. They looked like a #1, but they haven't racked up special scalps like a #1 because special teams hadn't been anywhere on their schedule. Now they have played one, singular. It's that basic.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 07, 2018, 08:21:33 AM
Oh, I don't expect some monstrous run game all of a sudden.  However, they were mostly trotting out last year's run playbook, along with some RPO's, and that wasn't working without a rushing quarterback who always wants to throw.  So they moved to some newer stuff that is more in line with having a dropback quarterback, and they were improved.  In any event, the offense hasn't been an issue - they are 3rd by S&p+ and have only had one game where they gained fewer than 480 yards.  
Michigan doesn't want OSU to figure it out to a 2014ish level. Of the options Michigan wants, where OSU does not figure out the run game, I'd bet that abandoning RPOs for a traditional run game is even better for M.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 07, 2018, 09:12:57 AM
Is Willikes working his way from walk on to potential early draft entrant?

https://twitter.com/PFF_College/status/1060165740161089536
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 07, 2018, 10:00:31 AM
To-date, Michigan has played a better group of teams than Alabama. Full stop.
Ah, ok, sure.  But Bama finishes with a much tougher schedule than Michigan, which was what puzzled me about your comment.  It is very unlikely that Michigan will have any sort of SOS argument at the end of the season.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on November 07, 2018, 11:06:58 AM
Assuming Michigan wins out and Georgia beats Alabama in the conference championship....can you imagine the blow back if Alabama edges out Michigan out of the playoff?  Two SEC, the ACC champ Clemson, and Notre Dame (semi-ACC) will piss a lot of people off.  Not sure how I would feel.  The Rose Bowl is a pretty good place to end up.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: FearlessF on November 07, 2018, 11:11:25 AM
and also imagine the reverse......... Georgia beats Bama in a very close game

Bama doesn't make the playoff at #5

chaos 

most would love it, but it would cause some waves
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Cincydawg on November 07, 2018, 11:17:34 AM
ND is the key.  If they lose, things obviously open up for OU and a one loss Bama team.

Were I the committee, I personally would view a conference CG as a play in game, lose and you're out.  You had your shot.  Now this "four best team FOR THE PLAYOFF" wording is interesting to me.  Are the final three words meaningful or just throw ins?

The "four best teams" might different from "TFBT FOR THE PLAYOFF" in some years.

Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: TyphonInc on November 07, 2018, 11:57:47 AM
Was surprised to see so much chatter about the OSU MSU game, only to be disappointed that it's a "Is M*ch worthy of a playoff spot?" thread.

I think OSU has the talent to win the game, but I still have a bad taste from their last road game.
I think Dantonio is an excellent coach, I think he will have MSU off the charts motivated, and it's at East Lansing. 

All that said I hope it's a really good game, and with my heart I hope OSU gets the W. But I'm not confident about that at all.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 07, 2018, 12:02:31 PM
Was surprised to see so much chatter about the OSU MSU game, only to be disappointed that it's a "Is M*ch worthy of a playoff spot?" thread.

I think Dantonio is an excellent coach, I think he will have MSU off the charts motivated, and it's at East Lansing.
Which has not helped MSU in a long time in this series.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: TyphonInc on November 07, 2018, 12:17:25 PM
Which has not helped MSU in a long time in this series.
True~ish. Hasn't Medina showed several times that the better team won regardless of location. OSU has more Recruiting Stars, not sure that translates into a better team. And OSU crapped the bed on it's last road game. 
If this was in Columbus I'd prolly take OSU -7. In East Lansing, I don't know, we could have a Purdue Part Duex.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 07, 2018, 12:30:17 PM
True~ish. Hasn't Medina showed several times that the better team won regardless of location. OSU has more Recruiting Stars, not sure that translates into a better team. And OSU crapped the bed on it's last road game.
If this was in Columbus I'd prolly take OSU -7. In East Lansing, I don't know, we could have a Purdue Part Duex.
Right, that home field isn't a disadvantage, it's just irrelevant.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 07, 2018, 12:32:23 PM
Looking it up, MSU has only won this game in East Lansing twice since the early seventies, and both were prior to the turn of the Millennium. 

1988 and 1999.

They did it twice while Archie Griffin was playing, but only once at any point before that; clear back in 1965. 

So only five home wins total, in 21 tries. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 07, 2018, 12:39:19 PM
My expert prediction for this game:

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 07, 2018, 12:45:22 PM
True~ish. Hasn't Medina showed several times that the better team won regardless of location. 
It was really more ELA than me but here it is:  From 2008 through 2017 the Buckeyes and Spartans have played eight times in ten years.  They did not play in 2009 and 2010.  They were not scheduled to play in 2013 but met in the B1GCG.  In those eight games:

The games:

I would say that the better team is 7-1.  The only clear exception was Ohio State's inexplicable loss in 2015.  In 2008, 2013, 2014, 2015, and 2017 the two teams finished within a few games of each other so there might be some plausible argument as to which was better.  

They have mostly been pretty good games.  You have:
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 07, 2018, 12:51:51 PM
Ah, ok, sure.  But Bama finishes with a much tougher schedule than Michigan, which was what puzzled me about your comment.  It is very unlikely that Michigan will have any sort of SOS argument at the end of the season.
I don't agree that Bama's SOS will inevitably be better. Since this is only relevant if Bama loses and Michigan wins out, let's review it like that: 
It won't be quite that simple (maybe Auburn and MissSt fall out; ditto PSU/UW, as one example), but Michigan could well finish with the better SOS.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 07, 2018, 12:53:29 PM
ND is the key.  If they lose, things obviously open up for OU and a one loss Bama team.
Ditto Clemson. Neither the Irish nor the Tigers get in with 1 loss unless there's chaos before the final vote.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 07, 2018, 12:55:29 PM
True~ish. Hasn't Medina showed several times that the better team won regardless of location. OSU has more Recruiting Stars, not sure that translates into a better team. And OSU crapped the bed on it's last road game.
If this was in Columbus I'd prolly take OSU -7. In East Lansing, I don't know, we could have a Purdue Part Duex.
I agree with this. It's entirely possible that MSU is better than OSU. I don't believe that, but there are weirdly many unknowns this late in the Big Ten season, so the "margin of error" is high.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 07, 2018, 12:58:17 PM
(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quickmeme.com%2Fimg%2F43%2F43116d2331e6adf4a5a44f461d4ea7c3803df3884e479585d87e589e065ae949.jpg&hash=b1a4dd997dbc2bcba68c6111e587e437)
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 07, 2018, 05:30:58 PM
The other thing MSU has going is that IF we can win out, and UM does also, which likely puts them in the CFP, I would think there is a very good chance of MSU winding up in the Rose Bowl, which is never a bad thing.  Hell, maybe a second straight bowl game against the Pirate.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Cincydawg on November 07, 2018, 05:44:00 PM
Alabama's only serious opponents left before the CG are Miss State and Auburn.  If they demolish both, they both likely fall out of the rankings, especially if Auburn loses to UGA (a game which worries me a lot).  If they beat UGA, that is a plus for them of course, but at 13-0 they would not need it.  Only if they lose to UGA does SoS become relevant to anything.  A 12-1 SEC champ is going to make the playoff this year.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 08, 2018, 09:19:51 AM
Sounds like Ian Book is out for ND this week
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 08, 2018, 09:41:26 AM
Sounds like Ian Book is out for ND this week
I put it in the playoff thread.  Granted this thread has steered so far off topic from the game, why not
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 08, 2018, 09:54:24 AM
I put it in the playoff thread.  Granted this thread has steered so far off topic from the game, why not
It's kind of like the World Cup group stage, where you have one eye on your own game and the other eye on everything else.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: ELA on November 09, 2018, 03:08:31 PM

***BIG TEN GAME OF THE WEEK***
#10 Ohio State Buckeyes (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State Spartans (4-2, 6-3)
NOON - East Lansing, MI - FOX
2004.  Aside from the weird 2011 season that was the last time Ohio State lost multiple Big Ten games in the same season.  Also, again 2011 aside, that was the last time Ohio State went into Michigan week playing for nothing but pride.  To keep both of those streaks alive, Ohio State needs to find itself.  On one hand, that tells you just how high the bar is for this program right now, that a team sitting in the top 10, at 8-1, still in control of their own destiny for a Big Ten title, has its fans concerned.  On the other, how can a program that is jockying with Clemson for most talent outside of Tuscaloosa be getting blown out by Purdue, and locked in a fight with a 2-7 Nebraska team?  Both of these programs pride themselves on their ability to run the ball and stop the run.  Michigan State leads the nation in run defense, and Ohio State has been fine enough there.  But neither team can run the ball.  The Buckeyes sit 8th in the Big Ten averaging 4.0 ypc, and the Spartans are down at 12th with 3.6.  Will either team be even competent on the ground, and how long will they try to force it.  The difference is that the Buckeyes haven't minded relying on their passing attack, putting up 368.8 ypg against Big Ten opposition, tops in the conference, and on the season, third nationally.  When you look at the most prolific passing offenses in the country, seeing Mike Leach and Kliff Kingsbury 1-2 is expected, but Urban Meyer #3?  Give him credit for adjusting to fit his personnel.  Dwayne Haskins has already thrown the ball at least 30 times in 7 of Ohio State's 9 games, and at least 38 times in 5 games.  J.T. Barrett attempted 38 or more passes 3 times in his entire career.  Michigan State is certainly more suseptible to the pass than the run, but their pass rush and coverage has improved leaps and bounds over where in was in September.  In conference play the Spartans have held opponents to 6.3 ypa, 5th best in the Big Ten, and have recorded the third most sacks.  Their adjusted sack rate on the year is still lower than you'd expect, but what they've excelled at is getting pressure with just their line, allowing their linebackers to play more in coverage, which they've done a better job at than most past units, when Narduzzi was a pretty strong believer in staying in your base defense.  That jives with Michigan State ranking much higher in standard downs sack rate than passing downs sack rate.  It's against the run though where those front four truly dominate.  Michigan State ranks #1 or #2 nationally in 4 of the 6 metrics that Bill Connolly uses to judge defensive line success against the run.  But while Ohio State has slogged few the past couple weeks, it's been against teams that, despite other weaknesses, could throw the ball on them.  Minnesota, Purdue and Nebraska have the three highest yards per attempt in the conference aside from Ohio State.  Michigan State's 5.8 ypa sits above only Rutgers.  Brian Lewerke is celarly not healthy yet, but the staff thought he was close enough to give him the start against Maryland.  I don't think anybody but Dantonio and offensive coordinator Dave Warner thought he looked healthy enough to go.  Rocky Lombardi showed a lot against Purdue, but he got first team reps all week.  When he came in against Maryland, he looked like a backup.  So while Michigan State may like Option B if Lewerke is still hurt, I'm not sure Lombardi is a guy right now who looks the same coming off the bench as he does getting the start.  So for all of the shakiness of the Ohio State back seven, it's unclear whether Michigan State, with a beat up Lewerke, missing Felton Davis, and playing Cody White with a cast on his hand, can do what Minnesota, Purdue and Nebraska did against it.  But can Ohio State put up big numbers on Michigan State if the Spartans force them to be one dimensional.  They tried that against Purdue, and while they moved up and down the field between the 20s, they slogged down in the red zone.  That has to be Michigan State's strategy as well.  Let the 4 up front hold their own, and don't get beat deep.  Once it becomes a phone booth fight and you can negate Ohio State's athletic advantage, it's a fair fight.  Purdue is good at that, their defense has the third best touchdown prevention rate in the red zone.  Michigan State is one of two schools even better.  Ohio State is more talented than they've shown, and every inch of me seems to think they'll have enough when they need it.  That was my argument in picking them to go into West Lafayette and win, when every sign pointed to Purdue.  Now I'm waiting for Ohio State to show me something that they haven't shown since gutting out that win in Happy Valley.  Win this game, and not only am I a believer, but I think that gives them a ton of momentum with Michigan coming to the Shoe in two weeks.  But again, you have to show me first.  And I hope not to be proven wrong.
MICHIGAN STATE 27, OHIO STATE 26
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 09, 2018, 03:33:59 PM
MSU's current streak of 19 years without a win over OSU in E Lansing is their longest such stretch since they first locked horns there in 1960. 

The next longest drought was 14 years, from 1974-1988. 

Third was an 11 year span from 1988-1999. 

So those three longest streaks have all been back to back to back, following their back to back home wins against Archie's Buckeyes. 

Before that was a 7 year gap from 1965-1972, after kicking things off with a 5 year gap from 1960-65. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on November 09, 2018, 03:51:50 PM
I was but a mere lad watching the '74 game a controversial win 16-13 over No 1 Ohio State.My bad Duffy retired in '72 I guess a coach named Denny Stolz was HC.Duffy was calling the game with Chris Schenkel ah those were the days - and the Prudential College Football Scoreboard and halftime report
https://www.si.com/vault/1974/11/18/618546/the-touchdown-that-didnt-count
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 09, 2018, 04:02:04 PM
(https://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2243661/jim-bollman.jpg?_ga=2.199227693.329801559.1541797291-1842036342.1541453892)
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on November 09, 2018, 04:04:58 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LSNUXTdHyc
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-2, 6-3) Game Week
Post by: TyphonInc on November 09, 2018, 06:14:18 PM
Ahhh... Ashton Youboty, that's a name I don't hear to often. Good times.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 10, 2018, 03:53:37 PM
Excuse the language

https://twitter.com/sparty__88/status/1061360611668451328?s=19
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 10, 2018, 04:04:16 PM
MSU continues to be terrible against OSU in EL.

Odd converse stat, since 2011, MSU has three road/neutral wins over OSU.  The rest of the Big Ten COMBINED has one, PSU in 2011.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 10, 2018, 04:10:19 PM
Next year in EL let's do it again.Tough season for Sparty injury wise.Tough stretch with dismissing some decent players also.Think they'll turn that corner in the off season.Always good when MSU & UW are tough.Hindsight but MD should have tried running Lombardi a little more
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 10, 2018, 04:12:09 PM
Next year in EL let's do it again.Tough season for Sparty injury wise.Tough stretch with dismissing some decent players also.Think they'll turn that corner in the off season.Always good when MSU & UW are tough.Hindsight but MD should have tried running Lombardi a little more
Tough to run a lot of option from your own 1.  Granted it went horribly, but that call really opens you up for a safety 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 10, 2018, 04:51:27 PM
https://twitter.com/RyanSchuiling/status/1061369861996208129?s=19
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 10, 2018, 05:56:28 PM
MSU seemed to give up on fielding punts. Most of them bounced within the 5 yard line. Fielding them -- especially after noticing the great punt/coverage combo pattern!!! -- would have been a game theory win and likely enough to prolong, if not outright prevent, those 2nd half points.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 10, 2018, 07:42:34 PM
***BIG TEN GAME OF THE WEEK***
#10 Ohio State Buckeyes (5-1, 8-1) at #18 Michigan State Spartans (4-2, 6-3)
NOON - East Lansing, MI - FOX
2004.  Aside from the weird 2011 season that was the last time Ohio State lost multiple Big Ten games in the same season.  Also, again 2011 aside, that was the last time Ohio State went into Michigan week playing for nothing but pride.  To keep both of those streaks alive, Ohio State needs to find itself.  On one hand, that tells you just how high the bar is for this program right now, that a team sitting in the top 10, at 8-1, still in control of their own destiny for a Big Ten title, has its fans concerned.  On the other, how can a program that is jockying with Clemson for most talent outside of Tuscaloosa be getting blown out by Purdue, and locked in a fight with a 2-7 Nebraska team?  Both of these programs pride themselves on their ability to run the ball and stop the run.  Michigan State leads the nation in run defense, and Ohio State has been fine enough there.  But neither team can run the ball.  The Buckeyes sit 8th in the Big Ten averaging 4.0 ypc, and the Spartans are down at 12th with 3.6.  Will either team be even competent on the ground, and how long will they try to force it.  The difference is that the Buckeyes haven't minded relying on their passing attack, putting up 368.8 ypg against Big Ten opposition, tops in the conference, and on the season, third nationally.  When you look at the most prolific passing offenses in the country, seeing Mike Leach and Kliff Kingsbury 1-2 is expected, but Urban Meyer #3?  Give him credit for adjusting to fit his personnel.  Dwayne Haskins has already thrown the ball at least 30 times in 7 of Ohio State's 9 games, and at least 38 times in 5 games.  J.T. Barrett attempted 38 or more passes 3 times in his entire career.  Michigan State is certainly more suseptible to the pass than the run, but their pass rush and coverage has improved leaps and bounds over where in was in September.  In conference play the Spartans have held opponents to 6.3 ypa, 5th best in the Big Ten, and have recorded the third most sacks.  Their adjusted sack rate on the year is still lower than you'd expect, but what they've excelled at is getting pressure with just their line, allowing their linebackers to play more in coverage, which they've done a better job at than most past units, when Narduzzi was a pretty strong believer in staying in your base defense.  That jives with Michigan State ranking much higher in standard downs sack rate than passing downs sack rate.  It's against the run though where those front four truly dominate.  Michigan State ranks #1 or #2 nationally in 4 of the 6 metrics that Bill Connolly uses to judge defensive line success against the run.  But while Ohio State has slogged few the past couple weeks, it's been against teams that, despite other weaknesses, could throw the ball on them.  Minnesota, Purdue and Nebraska have the three highest yards per attempt in the conference aside from Ohio State.  Michigan State's 5.8 ypa sits above only Rutgers.  Brian Lewerke is celarly not healthy yet, but the staff thought he was close enough to give him the start against Maryland.  I don't think anybody but Dantonio and offensive coordinator Dave Warner thought he looked healthy enough to go.  Rocky Lombardi showed a lot against Purdue, but he got first team reps all week.  When he came in against Maryland, he looked like a backup.  So while Michigan State may like Option B if Lewerke is still hurt, I'm not sure Lombardi is a guy right now who looks the same coming off the bench as he does getting the start.  So for all of the shakiness of the Ohio State back seven, it's unclear whether Michigan State, with a beat up Lewerke, missing Felton Davis, and playing Cody White with a cast on his hand, can do what Minnesota, Purdue and Nebraska did against it.  But can Ohio State put up big numbers on Michigan State if the Spartans force them to be one dimensional.  They tried that against Purdue, and while they moved up and down the field between the 20s, they slogged down in the red zone.  That has to be Michigan State's strategy as well.  Let the 4 up front hold their own, and don't get beat deep.  Once it becomes a phone booth fight and you can negate Ohio State's athletic advantage, it's a fair fight.  Purdue is good at that, their defense has the third best touchdown prevention rate in the red zone.  Michigan State is one of two schools even better.  Ohio State is more talented than they've shown, and every inch of me seems to think they'll have enough when they need it.  That was my argument in picking them to go into West Lafayette and win, when every sign pointed to Purdue.  Now I'm waiting for Ohio State to show me something that they haven't shown since gutting out that win in Happy Valley.  Win this game, and not only am I a believer, but I think that gives them a ton of momentum with Michigan coming to the Shoe in two weeks.  But again, you have to show me first.  And I hope not to be proven wrong.
MICHIGAN STATE 27, OHIO STATE 26

Halfway nailed it!
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TresselownsUM on November 11, 2018, 05:42:40 PM
Looks like osu is finding a way to grind out some yards which is promising, but why they continue to try and force Haskins into RPO and option plays boggles the mind. It should be completely eliminated when Haskins is in the game. They do fine with straight running plays, o line knows what to do and backs get better runs. Don’t confuse me for asking for Tate, I’m not, Haskins is a potential nfl 1st round pick, but u gotta call plays to his skill set. 

I liked the mix up with Tate, not sure how much you can use it, but 3-5 times a guy is fine. 

White has to stay in the lineup, some guys just know how to play, he just seems to make plays. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on November 11, 2018, 05:55:29 PM
I thought the run game without Tate was failing until MSU's defense broke late and then the traditional sets started working too. Of course, OSU deserves credit for breaking MSU, so this is always complicated. The hard question is whether MSU would have broken on D if their offense were functional. I won't hazard an answer, but whatever the answer is, that's probably how Dobbins/Weber would perform versus Michigan if they played this weekend.
No matter the answer in terms of extent, there's zero question that they've seen improvement since the bye week. UNL didn't mean much, but this one was nice.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TresselownsUM on November 12, 2018, 09:12:45 AM
I think the improvement has been taking away the read option, although they haven’t entirely done it. Also throwing in 2 TE sets, sometimes a 6th o lineman, addition of Tate. 

Now, the O line is still an issue so I still envision all kinds of issues against the team up north and most likely whoever our bowl opponent is. But at least I think it gives us a chance in those games if they can find a way to properly Balance it with the pass game. They still have a penchant for taking a 2 yard loss on run plays to kill drives. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 12, 2018, 09:17:47 AM

They'll be ready for the Wolverines. 

 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TyphonInc on November 12, 2018, 09:34:41 AM
 They [LSU] were severely overranked and their QB/offense flat out sucks.
I disagree, they have a heck of a QB down there.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 12, 2018, 11:21:03 AM
I disagree, they have a heck of a QB down there.
This is a funny bit, and I enjoy it. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TresselownsUM on November 12, 2018, 03:50:52 PM
Burrow is ok, he’s a fighter. He’d prob have Wisconsin at worst 8-2 right now. But he’s not good enough to win a conference title in big or Sec. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 12, 2018, 03:54:08 PM
Burrow is ok, he’s a fighter. He’d prob have Wisconsin at worst 8-2 right now. But he’s not good enough to win a conference title in big or Sec.
Burrow is terrible. He completes 50% of his passes. In today’s game that’s like completing 30% in years past.
Wisconsin’s issues go deeper than the QB. That defense isn’t what it used to be and all of their WR/TE talent from last year is gone.
Burrow wouldn’t have them at any better or worse than Hornibrook.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TresselownsUM on November 12, 2018, 04:00:00 PM
HAve to agree to disagree, I realize his completion percentage is bad, but he’s led some clutch drives like at Auburn, he made plays with his legs against Georgia, he has a decent arm and LSU nation and his team believe in him. He’s no all pro, but he’s good enough. 

I doubt many people believed Craig krenzel was worthy of playing at OSU let alone winning a natty .
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TyphonInc on November 12, 2018, 04:02:30 PM
MSU seemed to give up on fielding punts. Most of them bounced within the 5 yard line. Fielding them -- especially after noticing the great punt/coverage combo pattern!!! -- would have been a game theory win and likely enough to prolong, if not outright prevent, those 2nd half points.
I was screaming the opposite at the start. OSU let the 1st 3 MSU punts bounce for an extra 15~ish yards each. I was worried those 50 yards would come back to haunt them.
I'm not sure why MSU didn't try to field any of those punts at the end. but yah, when the choice is 1st and ten at the 5, or 1st and ten at the 1, those are 4 pretty big yards.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TyphonInc on November 12, 2018, 04:13:23 PM
Burrow is terrible. He completes 50% of his passes. In today’s game that’s like completing 30% in years past.
Wisconsin’s issues go deeper than the QB. That defense isn’t what it used to be and all of their WR/TE talent from last year is gone.
Burrow wouldn’t have them at any better or worse than Hornibrook.
Stepping into a new System/School, Burrow started the season off (1st 3 games) only completing 46% of his passes. The next 5 games his percentage is up to 58% That's pretty remarkable improvement IMHO. (For the Season he is at 54.8%)
And while 58% doesn't win you any awards, it's a far cry from terrible.

EDIT: And for the record he is half a percentage point better than Lewerke and McSorley...
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 12, 2018, 04:17:48 PM
Stepping into a new System/School, Burrow started the season off (1st 3 games) only completing 46% of his passes. The next 5 games his percentage is up to 58% That's pretty remarkable IMHO. (For the Season he is at 54.8%)
And while 58% doesn't win you any awards, it's a far cry from terrible.
He’s not at 58%. And it’s not remarkable.. He’s at 54.8%. And it’s terrible. The way the pass game and the rules are now- under 60 is just awful. Even Tebow and Denard were hitting in the 60%s and their abilities as runners far out exceeded anything Burrow could do. 
Burrow just isn’t that good. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TyphonInc on November 12, 2018, 04:27:50 PM
I made 2 edits to my post while you were typing your reply. "Remarkable improvement" and better than 2 other quarterbacks most consider good.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 12, 2018, 04:44:03 PM
He’s not at 58%. And it’s not remarkable.. He’s at 54.8%. And it’s terrible. The way the pass game and the rules are now- under 60 is just awful. Even Tebow and Denard were hitting in the 60%s and their abilities as runners far out exceeded anything Burrow could do.
Burrow just isn’t that good.
You're quaffing hot dog water if you think Denard could throw better than Burrow.He has had clutch drives I don't know which games you watch.LSU had 12 yds rushing vs Bama,Burrow was sacked 5X and hurried about a hundred.LSU hasn't matched up mano-a-mano against Bama for quite some time.In 2016 Burrow was 22-28 with 0 int's and a QB rating of 169.9 and 9.5 yard avg per attempt.Of course 4 of those linemen are playing on Sundays.There was plenty of controversy about JT playing as he was throwing behind and in front of receivers but URBS wanted an RB at QB.He broke his thumb last season and has some pedigree as  he threw for over 11,000 yds in High School.But ya he sux if you say so
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 12, 2018, 04:52:40 PM
Stepping into a new System/School, Burrow started the season off (1st 3 games) only completing 46% of his passes. The next 5 games his percentage is up to 58% That's pretty remarkable improvement IMHO. (For the Season he is at 54.8%)
And while 58% doesn't win you any awards, it's a far cry from terrible.

EDIT: And for the record he is half a percentage point better than Lewerke and McSorley...
In those five games, he's thrown for four TDs, four picks. His average pass gains 6.9 yards. His average completion gains 11.8. That ain't great. Also worth noting, he's not the first grad transfer, and a lot have done just fine to start the season.
I wouldn't say he's been terrible. But he's not been particularly good. He's had moments, the ones you mentioned, but he hasn't been good (also, Lewerke and McSorley are both kind of in bad shape right now). 
It's sort of a weird thing. He's been by most objective measures, not good. He's leading the No. 70 passing offense and No. 83 total offense in S&P, and that's lifted up by facing a bunch of good defenses. But it seems OSU fans really like him. 
It strikes me as a case of "not my problems." When it's not your problem and you don't live it, you see the good. Barrett got called a sandbagger at one point because his bad was something you felt. An LSU fan will no doubt point out he couldn't lead the offense to a point in the season's biggest game and threw up a 91.6 rating against a kinda good UF team. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 12, 2018, 04:55:47 PM
be interesting to see how many of his O-Line end up in the Sunday league unlike the behemoths in Madison.I'd take Burrow pre-broken thumb
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 12, 2018, 04:56:40 PM
Burrow is ok, he’s a fighter. He’d prob have Wisconsin at worst 8-2 right now. But he’s not good enough to win a conference title in big or Sec.
Might be generous. He might have them 7-3. Maybe if stuff broke right, 8-2. But TBF, one could say the same of Hornibrook. Shoot, if stuff had broken right with Alex, they could be 9-1. But it didn't against BYU, Michigan was a lost cause with how he's playing and NW/PSU are basically who knows because Coan has been very jittery and bad. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 12, 2018, 04:59:27 PM
You're quaffing hot dog water if you think Denard could throw better than Burrow.He has had clutch drives I don't know which games you watch.LSU had 12 yds rushing vs Bama,Burrow was sacked 5X and hurried about a hundred.LSU hasn't matched up mano-a-mano against Bama for quite some time.In 2016 Burrow was 22-28 with 0 int's and a QB rating of 169.9 and 9.5 yard avg per attempt.Of course 4 of those linemen are playing on Sundays.There was plenty of controversy about JT playing as he was throwing behind and in front of receivers but URBS wanted an RB at QB.He broke his thumb last season and has some pedigree as  he threw for over 11,000 yds in High School.But ya he sux if you say so
The bolded part baffles me. He was awesome in garbage time. A year later, the starter put up a a 160 rating playing the actual teams and we only hear about how he missed all the receivers. 
This is just a strange thing. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 12, 2018, 05:04:11 PM
Don't even start with garbage time I watched JT look very pedestrian throwing the ball at receivers feet and wide outs stopping to reach back and catch the ball.Burrow lead receivers in stride.JT was surrounded by a lot of Sunday guys especially last year.Yet he doesn't have an arena league offer.Burrow looked better than Barret when surrounded by the same personnel.What you don't know about Ohio State players is baffling.Of course a few years ago you thought John Cooper was a good coach
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 12, 2018, 05:04:46 PM
be interesting to see how many of his O-Line end up in the Sunday league unlike the behemoths in Madison.I'd take Burrow pre-broken thumb
That group in Madison has been letting QBs get killed all year. LSU's group is young, but the senior was an All-American last year.
He's leading a bad offense and not being productive. I don't know if that makes him bad. But it is what it is. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 12, 2018, 05:16:22 PM
Don't even start with garbage time I watched JT look very pedestrian throwing the ball at receivers feet and wide outs stopping to reach back and catch the ball.Burrow lead receivers in stride.JT was surrounded by a lot of Sunday guys especially last year.Yet he doesn't have an arena league offer.Burrow looked better than Barret when surrounded by the same personnel.What you don't know about Ohio State players is baffling.Of course a few years ago you thought John Cooper was a good coach
The closest game those stats came in was 48-3. The best defense of the group was Tulsa or Nebraska. 
Maybe it is baffling. I dunno. I keep seeing OSU fans who hated HATED this dual-threat QB who capped his career with a statistically impressive season. And those same fans are telling me, "Listen, don't look at the fact Burrow misses passes at a high rate and leads a bad offense." I'm just very confused by it. 
I'm saying this, if Burrow was at OSU doing what he's doing at LSU, fans would want to fire him into the sun. And perhaps if he was on the most talented roster in the county instead of the seventh, he'd be leading a good offense. But he's not. Over more than 28 passes, as an actual starting quarterback, he's been, in an objective sense not productive. He's had good and great moments, and a lot of really not great ones, which seem to come out in the wash with a majestic defense. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 12, 2018, 05:27:20 PM
Last year Barret left the Michigan game down 6 and it should have been more as a M LB dropped a pick that 2 plays later the Bucks scored on.Haskins came in and started threading the needle and the Buckeyes won by 11.When you're surrounded by NFL talent like Barret was for 5 yrs you should put up some numbers.You'd win 6-7 games a year under center,yet JT had no way of getting the ball deep consistently - he simply couldn't stretch the field.For every Penn St game - he had an Iowa game - not what your looking for in a 5th year senior.And I'm fairly certain Burrow has had some problems with that thumb.But this years Ohio St isn't close talent wise to last years or '16s
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 12, 2018, 05:48:42 PM
Last year Barret left the Michigan game down 6 and it should have been more as a M LB dropped a pick that 2 plays later the Bucks scored on.Haskins came in and started threading the needle and the Buckeyes won by 11.When you're surrounded by NFL talent like Barret was for 5 yrs you should put up some numbers.You'd win 6-7 games a year under center,yet JT had no way of getting the ball deep consistently - he simply couldn't stretch the field.For every Penn St game - he had an Iowa game - not what your looking for in a 5th year senior.And I'm fairly certain Burrow has had some problems with that thumb.But this years Ohio St isn't close talent wise to last years or '16s
So this year’s Buckeyes  are notably less talented, on offense, in the previous two? Interesting. 
Anyway,  i’m thinking the Tigers might just have a fair amount of Sunday talent them selves, being they usually do.  And Joe‘s numbers are sitting well below a former Purdue quarterback despite far more stable times. 
 I understand bagging on the old guy. It is the nature of fans to look for the bad . Is probably also the nature of fans to mine for the good of anyone that is not their team,  but in this case, it just seems weird. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 12, 2018, 06:03:44 PM
Yes Billy Price and Jamarco Jones are off the O-Line and in the NFL.But the big change is on that deep defensive line which has an adverse effect when more often than not Barret got the ball back every 4 downs in most games.Tyquan Lewis,Jalyn Holmes,Sam Hubbard,Trace Sprinkle,Michael Hill off of the defensive line(not to mention Nick Bosa).Defensive backs Denzel Ward,Damon Webb,Erik Wright.Linebackers Jerome Baker,Chris Worley and TE Marcus Baugh.Think of that depth lost - the program didn't recover specially the D-Line that was the deepest that I've ever seen coupled with this years starters.All those guys are on NFL rosters except Erik Smith - think about that.5 lineman,2 starting lbs & 3 starting db's - gone.That defense habitually gave the ball back to the offense with Billy Price and J.Jones still blocking.Haskins would look real good with all that help
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: Honestbuckeye on November 12, 2018, 07:01:16 PM
Burrow does throw a LOT of passes away on purpose, under pressure. But he is just “ok” for LSU.

If he was at OSU, he would be doing a lot more read options and QB draws....he is quite the runner.

Interestingly, Haskins still has not broken the single season TD pass record, which is an very impressive 35.  That record is held by none other than J.T. Barrett.  
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 12, 2018, 07:14:55 PM
OSU fans are a crazy bunch. 

Lot of them hated on JT Barrett- who only broke every QB passing and rushing record in the B1G and won like 11-12 games a season. 

Now lotta of them hate on Dwayne Haskins- a kid with a rocket launcher arm and will be a 1st round pick. 

But Joe Burrow is awesome. Lol. Yeeesh.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TyphonInc on November 12, 2018, 07:37:40 PM
OSU fans are a crazy bunch.

Lot of them hated on JT Barrett- who only broke every QB passing and rushing record in the B1G and won like 11-12 games a season.

Now lotta of them hate on Dwayne Haskins- a kid with a rocket launcher arm and will be a 1st round pick.

But Joe Burrow is awesome. Lol. Yeeesh.
Can't speak for other OSU crazies, but I loved JT even if I complained about the lack of down field completions.
I think Haskins is amazing, I'm more frustrated with the coaches calling plays that don't cater to his strengths.
I think Burrows is a step down from Haskins, and yet a marked improvement over what LSU had.
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TresselownsUM on November 12, 2018, 08:45:13 PM
I SI think what probably frustrates most osu fans is that when they had a runner like JT the coaches would inexplicably call 35 passes in a game and when they have a gun slinger they ask him to either run RPO, options or complete abandon the run and throw it 73 times. 

Looking at LSU historically they’ve not coached the offensive side of the ball well, and based on what I’ve read there’s no Landry or Beckham at WR

But make no mistake I’d take probably Haskins 1, then JT and burrow 3
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 12, 2018, 11:08:16 PM
OSU fans are a crazy bunch.

Lot of them hated on JT Barrett- who only broke every QB passing and rushing record in the B1G and won like 11-12 games a season. What many wanted to see was Urbs change it up in obvious passing downs.He won an NC using 2 QB's,after the Clemson whitewashing we knew what wasn't working.Needed a down field game and there were guys on the roster who could provide.JT wasn't going over the top.Look no further than Saban pulling Hurts who was 26-2 as a starter at the half of the NC game.How'd that work out?

Now lotta of them hate on Dwayne Haskins- a kid with a rocket launcher arm and will be a 1st round pick.

But Joe Burrow is awesome. Lol. Yeeesh.Spin doctor much,you said he sux he doesn't,and Denard damn sure wasn't a better passer - Yeeesh
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 13, 2018, 07:35:46 AM
Yes Billy Price and Jamarco Jones are off the O-Line and in the NFL.But the big change is on that deep defensive line which has an adverse effect when more often than not Barret got the ball back every 4 downs in most games.Tyquan Lewis,Jalyn Holmes,Sam Hubbard,Trace Sprinkle,Michael Hill off of the defensive line(not to mention Nick Bosa).Defensive backs Denzel Ward,Damon Webb,Erik Wright.Linebackers Jerome Baker,Chris Worley and TE Marcus Baugh.Think of that depth lost - the program didn't recover specially the D-Line that was the deepest that I've ever seen coupled with this years starters.All those guys are on NFL rosters except Erik Smith - think about that.5 lineman,2 starting lbs & 3 starting db's - gone.That defense habitually gave the ball back to the offense with Billy Price and J.Jones still blocking.Haskins would look real good with all that help
That's a lot of talent lost, to be sure. Is it that much more than average? Not by draft picks. Maybe just a lot of UDFA types in there? Shoot, the talent exoduses after 2015 and 2016 were quite hefty.
Now perhaps that means the replacement talent isn't that good, but it comes as OSU has literally been recruiting better by the metrics. Maybe it'll turn out this group lacks the talent. But I have a strange feeling we'll be seeing a lot of this year's team on the next level, probably at the same rate as most years. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 13, 2018, 07:36:52 AM
I SI think what probably frustrates most osu fans is that when they had a runner like JT the coaches would inexplicably call 35 passes in a game and when they have a gun slinger they ask him to either run RPO, options or complete abandon the run and throw it 73 times.

Looking at LSU historically they’ve not coached the offensive side of the ball well, and based on what I’ve read there’s no Landry or Beckham at WR

But make no mistake I’d take probably Haskins 1, then JT and burrow 3
What would be the issue with running RPO here?
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 13, 2018, 08:41:32 AM
Now perhaps that means the replacement talent isn't that good, but it comes as OSU has literally been recruiting better by the metrics. Maybe it'll turn out this group lacks the talent. But I have a strange feeling we'll be seeing a lot of this year's team on the next level, probably at the same rate as most years.
The O-line has been marginal/pedestrian against the stoudt lines a tad turnstile-ish,recruiting fell off a year.This team will not have the across the board talent on Sunday rosters.The vacuum felt by that exodus in the trenches is obvious.Sadly I don't see the Buckeyes approaching that kind of quality depth anytime soon.Bosa and a sprinkling will get snatched up in the draft but not like previous seasons IMO
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: TresselownsUM on November 13, 2018, 09:44:42 AM
The point of RPO is to keep the defense unbalanced, but when there’s no chance of run, ever, the defense knows this and plays it accordingly. And thats how you wind up throwing 73 times against Purdue. RPO is fine if you have a dual threat, but it’s not Dwayne’s game. He’s a great QB, but he’s pro style. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on November 13, 2018, 09:48:28 AM
RPO's were fine in theory, but Haskins never wanted to hand off, leading to a lot of passes into coverage with poor pass blocking
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 13, 2018, 02:28:50 PM
The point of RPO is to keep the defense unbalanced, but when there’s no chance of run, ever, the defense knows this and plays it accordingly. And thats how you wind up throwing 73 times against Purdue. RPO is fine if you have a dual threat, but it’s not Dwayne’s game. He’s a great QB, but he’s pro style.
This is not how RPOs work, and while a dual threat thing can help them, it’s highly unnecessary. 
They’re not even there to keep the defense off balance, they make the defense wrong/give numbers somewhere. 
All there are is this, a run play where the QB can throw if there’s a certain numbers/talent edge on a quick throw outside. So if you do them right, you never run into a loaded box. So if OSU is doing them right, OSU is unable to run into non-loaded boxes, and that’s a damn issue. 
Title: Re: #10 Ohio State (6-1, 9-1) at #18 Michigan State (4-3, 6-4) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 13, 2018, 05:02:54 PM
I don't care if they're running a wishbone,flying wedge,West Coast "O" or out of the wildcat.Using Leach's Air Raid or Urbz run 1st spread.Like Mike Tyson said Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.How can you say you'll never run into a loaded box.Much of that is predicated on defensive alignment and reaction