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The Power Five => SEC => Topic started by: bamajoe on October 21, 2018, 07:23:17 AM

Title: UT football
Post by: bamajoe on October 21, 2018, 07:23:17 AM
IMHO Tennessee finally has a solid coach and are on the way back to good football. This team although lacking big time in talent is disciplined and tough. They won't win many games this year but Pruitt is putting them through basic training something like Coach Bryant did at Texas A&M IN 1954 and Coach Saban did at Alabama in 2007. Look out in two years.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 21, 2018, 08:21:45 AM
If they can upgrade talent and the OL, they will get back to ten win seasons I think.

That however is an IF.  Florida appears to be more or less back already and Georgia has been recruiting like crazy.

While recruiting isn't everything obviously, it's a big start, and the Vols need to start showing up in the Top Ten.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: gymvol on October 21, 2018, 08:41:18 AM
It doesn't matter how much you upgrade your talent if you don't have the best man running the offense at QB.


Pruitt doesn't and I'll just leave it at that without all the whys and what fors because if you've watched the games you should already know if you know anything about football.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 21, 2018, 09:50:44 AM
I imagine the OC has something to do with how the offense works.

And I probably don't know much about football compared to any of these coaches, not much at all.

Some of the Ohio State fans sound today like Urban should be fired.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: bamajoe on October 21, 2018, 11:17:21 AM
I don't believe this is true. You don't have to have a stud qb to have a successful team. It helps but not a requirement; see Alabama before Tua. If you have a solid team that works together and all the pieces fit you can have a very good team.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: gymvol on October 21, 2018, 04:53:03 PM
I don't believe this is true. You don't have to have a stud qb to have a successful team. It helps but not a requirement; see Alabama before Tua. If you have a solid team that works together and all the pieces fit you can have a very good team.
Georgia was kicking BAMA's ass last year until TUA came in.  This year Saban has changed his offense completely for him.
That shows how important the QB position is. 
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: bamajoe on October 21, 2018, 07:42:54 PM
Even if Alabama had not beaten Georgia, Alabama was still good enough to reach the Championship game without a world beater at qb. In fact they won the NC four times and almost a fifth without a Tua at qb. What I said about not requiring a great qb to have a successful team stands. 
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on October 22, 2018, 04:46:10 AM
That's not exactly a great example, though.  

Oh, you don't need a great QB....yeah, not if you have the best RB, best OL, and best defense.  You're right.  If you have all of that, who cares about the QB?!??

But here in reality, where having all of those things aren't possible, THEN what say you?
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 22, 2018, 07:50:25 AM
OL and DL are the key to winning football. Tennessee ignored the OL for a long time. It shows.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 22, 2018, 08:15:45 AM
OL and DL are the key to winning football. Tennessee ignored the OL for a long time. It shows.
You sound like that other guy who posted this over and over and over about how Jones schemed OL.
It's amazing.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: rolltidefan on October 22, 2018, 10:58:37 AM
That's not exactly a great example, though.  

Oh, you don't need a great QB....yeah, not if you have the best RB, best OL, and best defense.  You're right.  If you have all of that, who cares about the QB?!??

But here in reality, where having all of those things aren't possible, THEN what say you?
it's the best example because it shows not only can you be good without a great qb, you can be outright dominant with marginal qb's. is everyone going to be able to achieve that? no, certainly not. but the argument was it couldn't be done. and that proven patently false. you can have very good teams without a great qb.
lsu is another example.
nd, texas, uf all bouncing back this year without world beater qb's, psu last year, etc.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 22, 2018, 11:38:57 AM
A great QB can make a mediocre-decent team into a top ten team, but they usually drop a couple of games.

A mediocre QB can make a great team into a top ten team that usually drops a couple of games.

I'd rather have a great OL and good RBs and a serviceable QB than any other combination.

Title: Re: UT football
Post by: MikeDeTiger on October 22, 2018, 02:21:40 PM
never understood people trying to make AJ McCarron a marginal QB, or a game manager.  The guy was just good.  
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on October 22, 2018, 03:11:04 PM
He became good.  He was very much a game manager in 2011 when they won the NC.  But his JR and SR years, he was asked to win games, not merely avoid losing them.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: MikeDeTiger on October 22, 2018, 03:21:02 PM
I agree for most of 2011.  But in the rematch NC he made throws that he probably hardly ever made again, a few that most college QBs might have a couple in their careers, let alone several in one game.  He remained very good after that point.  
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: bamajoe on October 22, 2018, 04:05:21 PM
AJ was a very good qb and one of my favorites. He was no where near the talent of a Tua or a Johnny Football or a Cam Newton. That is why he was like a 5th round draft choice and a career back up in the League. We have had other good qbs such as Blake Sims, Greg McElwain, Blake Barnette, and John Parker Wilson but none of these including McCarron were world beaters.

The guy who started this argument says you have to have a great quarterback before you can be successful and cited Tua as an example. I believe that is assinine
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 22, 2018, 04:10:05 PM
Georgia's really good teams have had pretty good QBs were tended not to lose games, nor make flashy plays to win them.

I guess DJ Shockley could be viewed as something of an exception because he was very mobile.

Tarkenton was very mobile also.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on October 22, 2018, 04:20:35 PM
I appreciated when Shockley came in and used his talent to give Florida the win in Jax that one year.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: MikeDeTiger on October 22, 2018, 05:51:57 PM
AJ was a very good qb and one of my favorites. He was no where near the talent of a Tua or a Johnny Football or a Cam Newton. That is why he was like a 5th round draft choice and a career back up in the League. We have had other good qbs such as Blake Sims, Greg McElwain, Blake Barnette, and John Parker Wilson but none of these including McCarron were world beaters.
Johnny Football?  You're kidding, right?  Not being Cam Newton or Tua (so far) does not put you in the same league as Sims, Barnette, Wilson, and jeez...McElroy.  Also using the NFL draft and career to gauge a college QB is erroneous for all kinds of obvious reasons.  McCarron was one of the better QBs the SEC has seen in the past few years.  
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 22, 2018, 08:13:43 PM
Manziel was a pretty good college QB who had some great WRs.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: MikeDeTiger on October 22, 2018, 09:15:59 PM
Maybe I'm just biased against him because of his games against LSU, but he was a scrambler who improvised well, and was not a very good passer.  I'd take McCarron all day every day over Manziel.  
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on October 23, 2018, 12:28:27 AM
I take McCarron if my team is loaded.
I take Manziel if he's going to be carrying the load.



Context, gentlemen.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 23, 2018, 09:10:23 AM
Yeah, the mobile aggressive QB can win games with a less talented team.

He could also lose games.

A solid steady QB would be better for a talented team.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Drew4UTk on October 23, 2018, 10:37:36 AM
it's just my opinion and doesn't mean anything, but... 

a 'flashy' QB who makes plays when plays break down will always get more credit than the QB who is in a system that doesn't often break down.  the QB with the operating system doesn't get the credit deserved as he just 'goes to work'... you'll only see his potential or ability when he encounters the rare break down and recovery.  

Manziel had a lot more opportunity to show his capability than McCarron, plain and simple, and his ability to scramble while maintaining vision of the field (akin to Baker Mayfield's) is what set him apart... both those QB's had targets that were capable of being covered, and their talent on their feet+vision allowed them to make the best of situations apparently chaotic.  Meanwhile, AJ had linemen that protected, backs that blocked or provided the OS dump mechanism, and receivers that ran tight and precise routes- making it only seem that he was 'serviceable, nothing great'... Auburn's Newton had offense sets to highlight his capabilities so he shined, almost in a Randell Cuttingham fashion of play (covered deep? gonna run / spied? gonna pass)... 

if the 'quiet' QB's weren't good enough it would have been obvious, is my contention, as they wouldn't have been able to execute the plays asked of them and those plays wouldn't have appeared as smoothly executed as they were... it's the 'fading' into the machine that makes TEAMS truly great, in my humble opinion, NOT the presence of a handful of playmakers that operate almost detached from the remainder of team.  

in short, i wouldn't take AJ without the rest of the team, and I wouldn't want Johnny Football on a team built like AJ had. 
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: rolltidefan on October 23, 2018, 11:11:52 AM
mccarrons ability wasn't so much his arm strength, accuracy, and certainly not his scrambling ability. his most impressive ability was pre-snap reads and getting us out of bad plays and into better ones. he really came into his own in late 2011, after lsu part 1, and it flourished in 2012 and 13. in lsu part 1 and before, they didn't really let him make many decisions, not many checkdowns and changing plays cause he was a young, first year qb. after lsu part 1, they started to let him loose, and in the bcs title game, they knew they had to take that risk or it'd be another 6-3 game.

this ability, imo, is so much better than any ability to scramble or chunk it 75 yrds.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 23, 2018, 12:00:36 PM
It's a bit "funny" in a way how rarely the names Aaron Murray and David Greene come up in QB conversations of whatever ilk.

I think they also are a case in point about solid QBs who got the teams into the right plays often as not and rarely made mistakes.

They both put up some serious career numbers passing.

I see Fromm as being of their ilk while Fields is more akin to DJ Shockley.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Gigem on October 23, 2018, 12:05:14 PM
It’s easy to say this but as a fellow fan and alumnus of another long suffering school  it’s simply a matter of time and competing factors before UT is back to greatness. Now assuming the facilities are up to par a great coach should be able to upgrade the talent. The other factor is sometimes even when you’ve done everything right you have to wait for your competitors to dip down before you can trend up. 

I would think being in the sec east the road would be a little easier but of course you still get Bama every year. So we might just have to wait awhile until Bama dips a little. I know it seems a long way off but Saban could call it quits anytime he’s ready and still be a legend for 100 plus years. They’ve been that good. 
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Gigem on October 23, 2018, 12:19:46 PM
I think though that the same problem that dogged A&M in the B12 has also dogged UT. For A&M we were too focused on competing with Texas and OU that we failed to compete against Tech and Okie St and Missouri and all the smaller programs. So instead of having two conference losses and a solid 3rd place every year we slipped down to 5th and 6th place. 

We spent so much energy trying to get the same type of recruits and players that the premier programs were getting we lost out on a lot of solid “3 star” players. What we should have done instead was either recruit like TCU does and recruit good solid football players and then cherry picked the occasional 4 and 5 star players that actually showed interest. Instead we had so many reaches on talented but troubled players and some that washed out quickly we played lousy football against “lesser” teams. 

This is kind of stretching it but can you imagine if we fired Slocum a year or two earlier and hired Leach instead of Texas Tech?  I mean our defense pretty well sucked most of the time post 2000 anyway. Leach had a knack for getting guys to fit his system. I feel like we could have been much more successful with him as opposed to more traditional guys like franchione or Sherman. 
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: MikeDeTiger on October 23, 2018, 12:49:54 PM
mccarrons ability wasn't so much his arm strength, accuracy, and certainly not his scrambling ability. his most impressive ability was pre-snap reads and getting us out of bad plays and into better ones. he really came into his own in late 2011, after lsu part 1, and it flourished in 2012 and 13. in lsu part 1 and before, they didn't really let him make many decisions, not many checkdowns and changing plays cause he was a young, first year qb. after lsu part 1, they started to let him loose, and in the bcs title game, they knew they had to take that risk or it'd be another 6-3 game.

this ability, imo, is so much better than any ability to scramble or chunk it 75 yrds.
This, x100.  
But I'll reiterate, maybe I'm just biased because of his two games against LSU, but Manziel wasn't even THAT great a scrambler and improviser against a team with some amount of discipline and talent.  The kid literally had one crazy game against Alabama, which was their annual sleepwalk that Johnny Football just happened to benefit from, and some legend about his greatness was born.  He wasn't a good passer, period, and he was nowhere close to a Vince Young, Cam Newton, Tebow type who could single handedly make things happen against even stout defenses.  He just didn't.  
Also, might be more of my LSU bias, but I completely agree, I'll take the QB who can read a defense and get into the right play.  We've lacked it for 10 years, and while the current guy's numbers tend not to be great, his impact on the offense via checks at the line and reading a defense in motion have been tangible.  I'll take that guy, on any team.  
Because it doesn't matter what kind of team you have.  Manziel will only make you look better against weaker teams, he can't help a flailing roster to more W's.  McCarron on the other hand is worth an extra win or two just by virtue of the fact he can...you know....do quarterback things.  Obviously Bama in particular didn't need the help, but put McCarron on A&M and they stand a much better shot of beating LSU one of those years.  
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Gigem on October 23, 2018, 10:12:30 PM
Bah humbug for hatin’ on JFF. If you recall that first LSU game was decided by a (missed) fg or two and one of the big time LSU linemen were saying “give him the heisman” after the game. 

Johnny also played behind an extremely talented OL and had some first round talent at WR. 

No way Vince was a better passer. 
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on October 23, 2018, 10:41:06 PM
Vince Young wasn't a great passer, period.  He's gotten a halo effect from the Rose Bowl game.  If USC had simply spied him, he wouldn't be nearly as revered now.



Manziel was a better passer, sure, but threw a lot of jump balls.  A quality passer doesn't do that.  



Both QBs' greatest strength was scrambling.  That's good to have, but I'm not sure you want it to be the #1 thing you're good at.  
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 24, 2018, 07:26:09 AM
Well, I think the Vols are on the "way back", but how far they get is unclear to me unless they can start getting top ten recruiting classes.

I know that is a "necessary but not sufficient" thing and some programs do pretty well without top level recruiting, but in the SEC it's rare.

They could be on the way back to 8-5 type seasons.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Drew4UTk on October 24, 2018, 08:56:44 AM
Offensive Biggun's is what UT need's right now... some with some football intelligence, and NOT named Chance Hall.  

With them, UF likely loses this past season's game, or it's at least a helluva lot more competitive, as an example.  Finding freshmen that fit the bill may be difficult at best, so it may be time to poach some jr colleges or lessor tiered schools with components that want to play on national tv... 

UT is okay certainly not great but okay in the skilled positions, has a decent LB corps, and a young secondary that should show improvement by next season.  their D line isn't really all that bad either but cold also use some very attentive work... 

I firmly believe they are no longer push overs with just that 'fix', and can likely be instant 3rd place SEC East as a floor... 
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 24, 2018, 10:25:04 AM
USCe has shown signs of life, and I thought Muschamp was a bad hire.

Mizzou is not right now chopped liver, and UK is dangerous.

If we guess at the rank order 3 years down the road, most would have UGA-UF in the first tier, followed by USCe and Tenn, and perhaps Mizzou.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: MikeDeTiger on October 24, 2018, 12:43:23 PM
Bah humbug for hatin’ on JFF. If you recall that first LSU game was decided by a (missed) fg or two and one of the big time LSU linemen were saying “give him the heisman” after the game.

Johnny also played behind an extremely talented OL and had some first round talent at WR.

No way Vince was a better passer.
Yes, and JFF's miserable game had nothing to do with it being close, it had to do with LSU having a(nother) miserable offense.  He scrambled around and made the D-linemen work for their sacks.  But think about that, if it's linemen running down a legendary QB.
Vince Young set some records at Texas in games, some passing efficiency ones, it was not just the Rose Bowl.  Spying VY....yes, because that worked so well for the teams who tried it.  I don't think Pete Carroll needs to take defensive notes from any of us here.  
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on October 24, 2018, 07:49:45 PM
Name the most prolific passing QB pre-Young.  lol
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on October 24, 2018, 07:50:27 PM
 Spying VY....yes, because that worked so well for the teams who tried it.  I don't think Pete Carroll needs to take defensive notes from any of us here.  
Ehh, did any of them have the talent of USC?  
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: MikeDeTiger on October 24, 2018, 09:29:58 PM
Name the most prolific passing QB pre-Young.  lol
No idea, but the numbers were objectively great.  When you complete nearly 90% of your passes in a game, that's good regardless of who played QB before you.  
People just see NFL washout and assume he was a collegiate running QB who couldn't read a defense or do actual QB things.  And those people did not watch many UT games from that time period either.  
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: MikeDeTiger on October 24, 2018, 09:30:30 PM
Ehh, did any of them have the talent of USC?  
Did any of them have the defensive coaching acumen of Pete Carroll?
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: rolltidefan on October 25, 2018, 11:03:54 AM
pre-2005, vy wasn't a great passer, though he wasn't terrible either. but 2005 he was very good. top 20 in yrds and td:int ratio, top 10 in comp%, top 5 in y/a, top 3 in qb rating.  not to mention his running ability.

i wouldn't say he was a world beater passing, but he was quite good. among the best that season.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on October 25, 2018, 12:01:06 PM
What if Tenn signs a QB of the caliber of say Drew Lock next season?  A guy who starts as a freshman and makes mistakes but shows signs of becoming a very good one.  They might finish say 7-6 next year, but could be dangerous as he matures.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: gymvol on October 25, 2018, 12:29:21 PM

What we have are people who keep blaming poor QB play on the OL because the QB can't read defenses, pick up a blitz and get the ball out quickly.

It's the QB who runs the offense one of his jobs is to let his lineman know what the defense is doing so they can adjust accordingly. That's why UT's OL looks terrible at times with JG at QB.

They're getting the blame for his lack of ability at reading the defense. You can see it in his audibles too.


We saw how much that changed when Chryst came into the game against BAMA.
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: MikeDeTiger on October 25, 2018, 03:06:14 PM
What's the word on Guarantano/Chryst?  

Was JG knocked out of the game or benched?  Is he coming back or is this new guy in the rest of the way?
Title: Re: UT football
Post by: Cincydawg on November 20, 2018, 02:44:14 PM
We seem to have the "good Vols" would beat Auburn and Kentucky and the bad Vols who struggled with Charlotte and were blown out last week.

I think the good version shows up this weekend, perhaps.