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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Anonymous Coward on October 14, 2018, 04:31:55 PM

Title: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 14, 2018, 04:31:55 PM
The Line opens at Michigan -5 (http://www.vegasinsider.com/college-football/odds/las-vegas/line-movement/michigan-@-michigan-state.cfm/date/10-20-18/time/1200#BT). Seems fair. On paper, Michigan is the better team. I haven't looked but assume Bill Connelly has this one closer to M -8/12 on paper (it was M -10.5 with a 73% probability before this weekend). That's not really worth getting into, though. Away games versus ... anyone, but especially ranked teams, have been a Michigan bugaboo for a decade. This team has something that might let it turn the tide. The acid tests continue. Prove it.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (6-1, 4-0) at #24 MSU (4-2, 2-1)
Post by: Mdot21 on October 14, 2018, 04:34:27 PM
It’s in East Lansing. Harbaugh sucks on the road.

There’s NO WAY that Michigan wins this game. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (6-1, 4-0) at #24 MSU (4-2, 2-1)
Post by: MrNubbz on October 14, 2018, 04:57:12 PM
Sorry but you just used a NO WAY,no way are no ways allowed in consecutive weeks.Might even be an annual allocation!
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (6-1, 4-0) at #24 MSU (4-2, 2-1)
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 14, 2018, 06:06:47 PM
Just found this injury database: (http://www.donbest.com/ncaaf/injuries/)

Michigan
[th]Date[/th]
[th]Pos[/th]
[th]Player[/th]
[th]Injury[/th]
[th]Status[/th]
10/14/18DLMichael DwumfourLegis "?" Saturday vs Michigan State
10/14/18DLRashan GaryArmis "?" Saturday vs Michigan State
09/25/18DBBenjamin St-JusteUndisclosedis out for season
09/17/18QBJacob WestACLis out for season
09/11/18DLAubrey SolomonKneeis out indefinitely
09/09/18PBrad RobbinsBackis out indefinitely
09/03/18WRTarik BlackFootis out indefinitely
 
Michigan State
[th]Date[/th]
[th]Pos[/th]
[th]Player[/th]
[th]Injury[/th]
[th]Status[/th]
10/14/18FBCollin LucasUndisclosedis "?" Saturday vs Michigan
10/14/18GKevin JarvisAnkleis "?" Saturday vs Michigan
10/14/18RBLJ ScottHamstringis "?" Saturday vs Michigan
10/14/18WRJalen NailorUndisclosedis "?" Saturday vs Michigan
10/10/18PJake HartbargerLegis out for season
10/07/18WRCody WhiteHandis out indefinitely
10/07/18GDavid BeedleArmis out indefinitely
09/20/18DTMufi HuntKneeis out indefinitely
08/06/18CBJosiah ScottLegis out indefinitely
08/04/18CBTyson SmithMedicalis out for season
 

But it's not perfect. For Michigan it misses on Aubrey Solomon (who played last night, looked fine) and - probably - on Tarik (who may not be back but is practicing and seems poised for this one).
How does MSU's injury reality compare?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (6-1, 4-0) at #24 MSU (4-2, 2-1)
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 14, 2018, 06:25:42 PM

(https://mgoblog.com/sites/default/files/users/user136434/8A458F82-3A73-48A2-9A17-3AB817616D49.gif)
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 15, 2018, 12:34:05 AM
For those who don't know, Bill Connelly is basically a version of medina who started as a cult favorite but with increasing fame became a national innovator of interpreting CFB games statistically. Maybe like Nate Silver, except #nopolitics. Anyway, one of his many weekly staples is a piece called The Five Factors (YPP, field position, points per scoring opportunity, turnover luck, and "success rate"), which are well defined many places, including SBNation or Football Study Hall (https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2014/1/24/5337968/college-football-five-factors) if you're curious.**

**(no, my name is not Bill Connelly, nor am I his mom,shamelessly trying to bring you to my site)

Anyway, he does this analysis for every game nationally and then points out five of the most extreme examples for each factor. And guess which two teams featured this week?:

Top 5 points per scoring opportunity margins (vs. FBS)
Goodness, just imagine how bad the Wisconsin-Michigan game could’ve been if Michigan had finished drives...
Top 5 turnovers luck margins (vs. FBS)

Translation: Michigan State had a turnover margin that was +4.1 ahead of where national averages suggest it should have been. As each turnover is worth approximately five points, that means the Spartans enjoyed about a 20- to 21-point boost thanks to turnovers luck. In a four-point win. I swear, that happens every single time Sparty plays PSU, Michigan, or Ohio State, doesn’t it...

Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 15, 2018, 12:38:04 AM
Of course, MSU technically deserved more turnover luck, given the uncalled fumble(s). We all saw at least the one by Sanders that was never reviewed before the snap.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on October 15, 2018, 05:03:33 AM
Sparty run D is outstanding.

Dwumfour and Solomon played against Wisconsin.  Gary and Black expected back soon.  Maybe this Saturday?  Haven’t heard about Michigan Safety Kinnel who left the Wisconsin game with an injury.


Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 15, 2018, 07:54:29 AM
Just found this injury database: (http://www.donbest.com/ncaaf/injuries/)























Michigan
[th]Date[/th]
[th]Pos[/th]
[th]Player[/th]
[th]Injury[/th]
[th]Status[/th]

10/14/18
DL
Michael Dwumfour
Leg
is "?" Saturday vs Michigan State

10/14/18
DL
Rashan Gary
Arm
is "?" Saturday vs Michigan State

09/25/18
DB
Benjamin St-Juste
Undisclosed
is out for season

09/17/18
QB
Jacob West
ACL
is out for season

09/11/18
DL
Aubrey Solomon
Knee
is out indefinitely

09/09/18
P
Brad Robbins
Back
is out indefinitely

09/03/18
WR
Tarik Black
Foot
is out indefinitely



Michigan State


[th]Date[/th]
[th]Pos[/th]
[th]Player[/th]
[th]Injury[/th]
[th]Status[/th]

10/14/18
FB
Collin Lucas
Undisclosed
is "?" Saturday vs Michigan

10/14/18
G
Kevin Jarvis
Ankle
is "?" Saturday vs Michigan

10/14/18
RB
LJ Scott
Hamstring
is "?" Saturday vs Michigan

10/14/18
WR
Jalen Nailor
Undisclosed
is "?" Saturday vs Michigan

10/10/18
P
Jake Hartbarger
Leg
is out for season

10/07/18
WR
Cody White
Hand
is out indefinitely

10/07/18
G
David Beedle
Arm
is out indefinitely

09/20/18
DT
Mufi Hunt
Knee
is out indefinitely

08/06/18
CB
Josiah Scott
Leg
is out indefinitely

08/04/18
CB
Tyson Smith
Medical
is out for season





But it's not perfect. For Michigan it misses on Aubrey Solomon (who played last night, looked fine) and - probably - on Tarik (who may not be back but is practicing and seems poised for this one).
How does MSU's injury reality compare?
Starting WR Darrell Stewart is also out.  He might play this week, but I would assume questionable at best considering he didn't make the trip last week.  Him, Nailor and Jarvis are the three who might return this week.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 15, 2018, 08:08:16 AM
Sounds like Jarvis and Stewart are going to try to go, Nailor was a non contact knee injury in practice.  No word, but those are typically not good.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 15, 2018, 09:56:04 PM
Hopefully both teams are as healthy as possible just in time.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on October 16, 2018, 07:43:39 AM
The weather forecast for Saturday in East Lansing at this time, over 4 days in advance, is for a high of 47 with a 40% chance of showers and wind, 21 mph WNW.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on October 16, 2018, 10:36:18 AM
Should be a fun game.  MSU a little more equipped defensively, and Dantonio usually has a few tricks for Michigan.  Hopefully MSU still has something in the tank after a big win, though.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 16, 2018, 10:55:25 AM
For whatever reason Michigan doesn't get up for this game like MSU does. One team is playing like it is their Super Bowl, the other is just playing not to lose. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 11:00:34 AM
For whatever reason Michigan doesn't get up for this game like MSU does. One team is playing like it is their Super Bowl, the other is just playing not to lose.
Lol
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 11:14:35 AM
game scares the hell out of me because it's on the road. Harbaugh just flat out sucks on the road. There really is no other way to put it. We have years of evidence of this now. He doesn't get his team up for the road games and he plays things way too conservative.

Michigan is the better team and SHOULD win, but I really think they lose. I just don't see any way they win this game on the road.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 16, 2018, 11:15:49 AM
Lol
Lol? 
ELA's account appears to have been hacked by a 12 year old girl. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 11:17:35 AM
sounds like Joel Klatt and Gus Johnson will be doing the game. Thank god. Last Michigan game on Fox was Tim Brando's drunk ass who kept mispronouncing all the players' names. That guy should probably just retire.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 11:26:29 AM
PFF's list of the highest rated CB's from the P5 conferences who have limited receivers in coverage. Michigan's David Long #1 on that list. Again.

Fewest yards allowed, per coverage snap.

1) David Long, Michigan - 0.15
2) Julius Brents, Iowa - 0.23
3) Maurice Smitherman, Miss State - 0.26
4) Innis Gaines, TCU - 0.30
5) Derrick Baity Jr, Kentucky - 0.38
6) Alontae Taylor, Tennesee - 0.41


https://twitter.com/PFF_College/status/1051876105592827905/photo/1


Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 11:40:51 AM
Lol?
ELA's account appears to have been hacked by a 12 year old girl.
Not a fan of shorthand?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 11:41:17 AM
sounds like Joel Klatt and Gus Johnson will be doing the game. Thank god. Last Michigan game on Fox was Tim Brando's drunk ass who kept mispronouncing all the players' names. That guy should probably just retire.
Harbaughs biggest fan boy in the house 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on October 16, 2018, 11:44:37 AM
Harbaugh's only victory over State was in East Lansing.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 11:49:16 AM
Harbaugh's only victory over State was in East Lansing.
against a really crappy 3-9 team. Which he should've buried and was on the route to burying until the team let up the gas and let them kind of get back in it.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 11:50:45 AM
Harbaughs biggest fan boy in the house
you just sound like a hater. he's way better than 99% of the other people who do his job imo. I'd much rather have him call a game than Tim Brando's old drunk ass calling Josh Metellus Josh Martless.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 16, 2018, 11:55:49 AM
Not a fan of shorthand?
I take it that you disagree with my assessment? 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 12:23:13 PM
you just sound like a hater. he's way better than 99% of the other people who do his job imo. I'd much rather have him call a game than Tim Brando's old drunk ass calling Josh Metellus Josh Martless.
We had this discussion last year when someone else made the claim during a UM broadcast that Joel Klatt sounded like a weird Harbaugh homer, and I went through and dug up all of the pro-Harbaugh articles that Joel Klatt had written for FOX in just the previous like 6 months.
Not that there's anything wrong with it, but he is
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 12:24:07 PM
I take it that you disagree with my assessment?
The UM is MSU's "Super Bowl"?
Yeah
UM is MSU's Ohio State.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 12:28:25 PM
We had this discussion last year when someone else made the claim during a UM broadcast that Joel Klatt sounded like a weird Harbaugh homer, and I went through and dug up all of the pro-Harbaugh articles that Joel Klatt had written for FOX in just the previous like 6 months.
Not that there's anything wrong with it, but he is
From the SoC last year during the UM-OSU game...

Klatt has yet to not question every call that went against UM, or didn't get called.  He is a big UM guy.  Everyone knows that.  
Lol? What? He's probably the only guy worth a shit in the CFB game since Speileman went to call the NFL.
And he's a Colorado guy fyi.
Klatt 2015  - Harbaugh is the best coach in college football

http://www.freep.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2015/08/19/michigan-football-jim-harbaugh/31993261/

Klatt in July - Harbaugh is the best developer of talent in college football

https://saturdaytradition.com/michigan-football/klatt-harbaugh-best-developmental-coach-america/

Klatt in October - If you think Harbaugh as underachieved, you are "false and petty"

https://www.foxsports.com/the-herd-with-colin-cowherd/video/1070254147600

Klatt this week - UM giving Harbaugh a lifetime contract makes sense

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/the-herd-with-colin-cowherd/video/1101885507554

I'm not sure he's so much pro-UM, as he is jealous he didn't get a Quinn Nordin experience with ol Jimmy
Lol.. ELA is still a ninja with information. 
Klatt is a tool
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on October 16, 2018, 12:29:11 PM
I would really like to see Make Hart as Michigan's running backs coach if only for this game.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 12:31:36 PM
I would really like to see Make Hart as Michigan's running backs coach if only for this game.
It's too bad he's coaching at another Big Ten school, because otherwise, if they made him honorary captain, I'd have to applaud that level of trolling.
I'd like to see MSU use Jalen Watts-Jackson in that role this year, now that he's medically retired.  Need to get some dirt on Blake O'Neill and blackmail him into being our captain.  That would probably be the only trump card.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 16, 2018, 12:35:58 PM
The UM is MSU's "Super Bowl"?
Yeah
UM is MSU's Ohio State.
I don't follow. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: FearlessF on October 16, 2018, 01:02:24 PM
We had this discussion last year when someone else made the claim during a UM broadcast that Joel Klatt sounded like a weird Harbaugh homer, and I went through and dug up all of the pro-Harbaugh articles that Joel Klatt had written for FOX in just the previous like 6 months.
Not that there's anything wrong with it, but he is
Klatt is a Ralphie loving Colorado Buffalo
so consider the source
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 01:10:06 PM
I don't follow.
Is Michigan Ohio State's Super Bowl?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 16, 2018, 01:14:18 PM
Should be a fun game.  MSU a little more equipped defensively, and Dantonio usually has a few tricks for Michigan.  Hopefully MSU still has something in the tank after a big win, though.
Not clear, but I think you are saying that MSU has a better overall defense than M. Or are you saying they are a step up from what Michigan has seen since ND?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 16, 2018, 01:16:00 PM
sounds like Joel Klatt and Gus Johnson will be doing the game. Thank god. Last Michigan game on Fox was Tim Brando's drunk ass who kept mispronouncing all the players' names. That guy should probably just retire.
My favorite duo in CFB.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 16, 2018, 01:17:15 PM
against a really crappy 3-9 team. Which he should've buried and was on the route to burying until the team let up the gas and let them kind of get back in it.
Meh, he did bury them. And then Dantonio played for defeat-with-dignity. Still a 2-score game and the eye test said it was less close than that. Definitely not a good team, though.
Of course, you could argue that neither 2016 (MSU was better than 3-9) nor 2017 (MSU seemed worse than 9-3) worked out in proportion to the team.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 16, 2018, 01:19:34 PM
We had this discussion last year when someone else made the claim during a UM broadcast that Joel Klatt sounded like a weird Harbaugh homer, and I went through and dug up all of the pro-Harbaugh articles that Joel Klatt had written for FOX in just the previous like 6 months.
Not that there's anything wrong with it, but he is
Isn't he a homer for every helmet he writes on?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 16, 2018, 01:22:09 PM
PFF's list of the highest rated CB's from the P5 conferences who have limited receivers in coverage. Michigan's David Long #1 on that list. Again.

Fewest yards allowed, per coverage snap.

1) David Long, Michigan - 0.15
2) Julius Brents, Iowa - 0.23
3) Maurice Smitherman, Miss State - 0.26
4) Innis Gaines, TCU - 0.30
5) Derrick Baity Jr, Kentucky - 0.38
6) Alontae Taylor, Tennesee - 0.41


https://twitter.com/PFF_College/status/1051876105592827905/photo/1
Love this backfield. I'm surprised there are no LSU guys on there. Miami, either. I know they're great. Makes me think this is cherry-picking a bit (not against you, MDot, but PFF). They really do a good job baiting us sometimes.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 01:32:10 PM
Meh, he did bury them. And then Dantonio played for defeat-with-dignity. Still a 2-score game and the eye test said it was less close than that. Definitely not a good team, though.
Of course, you could argue that neither 2016 (MSU was better than 3-9) nor 2017 (MSU seemed worse than 9-3) worked out in proportion to the team.
Huh?
The problem wasn't kicking the field goal, it was missing the field goal.
If he had made that FG, it would have been a 10 point game when MSU had the ball 4th and goal from the 8, rather than a 13 point game.  Then MSU could have kicked the chip shot FG and made it a 7 point game.  Instead cutting it from 13 to 10 was irrelevant, and they had to go for it, and not only didn't get it, but Peppers broke Lewerke's leg on the sack, ending his season.
Therefore when MSU got the ball back, and scored with 1 second to go, they were down 13 instead of 7.  If they had made that FG though, then it would have allowed them to kick the FG the next possession.  Now I'm not going to say they would have gone down and scored the tying touchdown, the way they did, because obviously UM defends the field much differently with a 7 point lead vs. 13.  But they would have at least had a shot.  Missing that FG took that shot away.  It's not like it was 4th 3.  It was 4th and goal from the 17.  That's a nearly impossible conversion.
And yes, it was a 2 score game, because then the dumb decision he did make was to go for 2 to make it a 5 point deficit, and instead Peppers returned the 2 point conversion to make it 9, when just kicking the PAT would have made it 6.
But no, I agree with MDot, he didn't bury them at all.  UM kicked the FG to go up 30-10 with 14:40 left.  From that point on, UM had 3 drives, two of them were 3 and out.  For the rest of the game, they had 13 plays for 41 yards and 1 first down.  MSU from that point ran 30 plays for 256 yards.  That is about as poor a job as closing out a game as one can have.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 16, 2018, 01:38:17 PM
Is Michigan Ohio State's Super Bowl?
In your various half assed sentence fragments, are you trying to suggest that OSU is to Michigan as Michigan is to Michigan St? 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 16, 2018, 01:44:43 PM
I was just commenting on how MSU had that beautifully scripted drive to go up 7-0 but then found itself down 27-10 in the 4th and Michigan just salted it away**, but The State News apparently thought they saw something competitive. This boggles:

(https://i.imgur.com/YW7n7lg.jpg)

**(always smart; many fans hate it, but it's the lowest variance solution. Only bad coaches go for high variance when they're up big)
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 16, 2018, 01:45:49 PM
But no, I agree with MDot, he didn't bury them at all.  UM kicked the FG to go up 30-10 with 14:40 left.  From that point on, UM had 3 drives, two of them were 3 and out.  For the rest of the game, they had 13 plays for 41 yards and 1 first down.  MSU from that point ran 30 plays for 256 yards.  That is about as poor a job as closing out a game as one can have.
We strongly disagree on the significance of those margins.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 02:01:50 PM
You are falsely equating style with results, the right thing to do was to salt the game away.  But to do it while getting outgained by 210 yards in a quarter, while having 2 of your 3 drives go 3 and out, burning less than 2 minutes on 2 of the 3 drives, is a piss poor execution of a fine strategy.

Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 02:06:06 PM
In your various half assed sentence fragments, are you trying to suggest that OSU is to Michigan as Michigan is to Michigan St?
A half assed take deserves only a half assed response.  But I'm not sure what you still aren't getting to be honest.
UM is not MSU's Super Bowl.  MSU doesn't play in or for the Super Bowl.  They play for CCGs, Rose Bowls and CFPs, all of which they have played for recently.  And maybe, hopefully a national title game at some point.
Saying that this game is anything more than just our biggest rival is a lazy take.  Saying this is "MSU's Super Bowl" is as lazy a take as saying OSU is UM's Super Bowl.  Except there it actually makes a little bit more sense because they haven't actually played for any of the things I mentioned in a long, long time.
Yes, it's MSU's biggest rival.  No, it isn't UMs.  That's it.  If there is still some sort of motivation deficit after a decade of wishing they were having MSU's success, that's not on some sort rivalry disparity, that's on the players and coaches.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 16, 2018, 02:14:04 PM
You are falsely equating style with results, the right thing to do was to salt the game away.  But to do it while getting outgained by 210 yards in a quarter, while having 2 of your 3 drives go 3 and out, burning less than 2 minutes on 2 of the 3 drives, is a piss poor execution of a fine strategy.


Yeah, the finishing execution fell out. But that mattered for style points only. My argument is that the game was never actually in doubt.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5534/30042408423_e1351de422_o.gif)
I get irrationally worried that all kinds of Michigan leads will flip. Down to the last second, that kind of worry wasn't part of this game. The UW-M game from this last weekend, though? I was worried maybe even after the Lavert INT and was absolutely still anxious at 24-7. Versus MSU in 2016, 27-10 felt entirely different.
The fact that 7 of those 10 for MSU came on their opening drive was BIG part of my confidence deep in the 4th. That one was a beautifully scripted and heavily repped drive ... and it did not compare to anything State accomplished for the rest of the game.
Maybe not in final score (margin: 9), but absolutely in feel, the game was a blowout.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 02:27:51 PM
The way it played out, no.  MSU only made it a 1 score game with :01 to play.  Which is what made that 2 point conversion all the more moronic.  Yes, it would have required a clean onside kick recovery with no time off the clock, followed by a hail mary, and yes, what resulted to push it from 7 to 9 was very fluky, but still, why be petty enough to cut it from 6 to 5 to even make it an issue, when the resulting play killed even that 0.0000001% chance.

But had MSU made that 34 yard FG, which would have allowed them to kick the chip shot 25 yarder the next possession, they at least have the ball back with a shot.

Again, I mostly agree, I just think they went a little too conservative a little too early, and due to a missed FG and a broken leg, MSU never fully pushed them on it.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on October 16, 2018, 02:33:00 PM
“Defeated with Dignity.”  That was funny.  I forgot about that.  Thanks for the reminder Anonymous Coward.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 02:41:24 PM
Judith Martin approved of our handling of that game

Also everything EDSBS does is good, but even MSU fans who grimaced hard at that headline, had to laugh

https://www.everydayshouldbesaturday.com/2016/10/31/13480346/don-t-do-this-michigan-state

It's like you should have a panel of fans approve anything that goes out.  I had a bunch of UM fans face palming that the UM football end of game Tweet after the ND loss this year just said "We never gave up."  Nobody wants to read that crap after a loss.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 16, 2018, 02:48:31 PM
A half assed take deserves only a half assed response.  But I'm not sure what you still aren't getting to be honest.
UM is not MSU's Super Bowl.  MSU doesn't play in or for the Super Bowl.  They play for CCGs, Rose Bowls and CFPs, all of which they have played for recently.  And maybe, hopefully a national title game at some point.
Saying that this game is anything more than just our biggest rival is a lazy take.  Saying this is "MSU's Super Bowl" is as lazy a take as saying OSU is UM's Super Bowl.  Except there it actually makes a little bit more sense because they haven't actually played for any of the things I mentioned in a long, long time.
Yes, it's MSU's biggest rival.  No, it isn't UMs.  That's it.  If there is still some sort of motivation deficit after a decade of wishing they were having MSU's success, that's not on some sort rivalry disparity, that's on the players and coaches.
Okay, so you were simply objecting to the "Super Bowl" cliché through a thick layer of condescending snark. Got it. Had you said so off the bad we could have easily avoided all this useless back and forth. Instead you said "UM is MSU's Ohio State." 
That makes zero sense. For one thing, MSU is in a division with both UM and Ohio St. So on it's face you would appear to be claiming that MSU approaches both games exactly the same. Or perhaps that they approach all games exactly the same as the Michigan game. None of which I'd agree with. 
Now claiming that Michigan is to MSU as OSU is to Michigan is also horribly inaccurate. In order for that to be the case, MSU would have to be losing most of their games to Michigan, and would have to care about the rivalry quite a bit less than Michigan does, which is also obviously not the case. 
But yes, I do consider Michigan to be OSU's Super Bowl. If they lose that game then the season is a complete and total bust no matter what else happens. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 03:52:16 PM
Now claiming that Michigan is to MSU as OSU is to Michigan is also horribly inaccurate.
agreed.
Michigan State is an annoying little brother that as of late has stepped up to become a real pain in the ass. I don't really see them as Michigan's rival. Just being honest. They are more of a nuisance than anything. Really wish we didn't even play them. Nothing to gain by beating them and everything to lose by losing to them. I see ND as a bigger rival than MSU to be honest.

Ohio State is the rival. Period. That is the only game that truly matters in my mind.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 03:57:28 PM
AC- the game felt like a blowout but then Michigan took it's foot off the gas. They just went into cruise control while Sparty never quit fighting and got right back into it. They should've won that game by 30+. They didn't. They let Sparty hang around instead of ending their life and digging their graves. It was embarasing.

Part of that is on the players, but I think a bigger part of that is on Harbaugh. His teams really seem to play like crap on the road and he really seems to lack a killer edge. One thing I've always admired about Meyer is he doesn't give a shit. If he's up 30-10 he'll try and embarrass a team and just bury them and run up the score. I love that in a coach. Jimmy Johnson was infamous for this. He always tried to pour it on. That's what you should do. Winning isn't enough. Destroying the other team and embarrassing them is what you should do. No mercy. Always admired those Jimmy Johnson Miami and Cowboys teams because they'd beat the shit out of you and then let you know they whooped your ass. That's what this game is all about. Ultimate test of will. How badly do you want to destroy the other team.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 04:00:23 PM
I would really like to see Make Hart as Michigan's running backs coach if only for this game.
I would really like him to be Michigan's RB coach period. I think he's got HC in his future and he's a hell of a recruiter already. Jim is messing up here. Mike Hart would take that job if offered in 2 seconds flat.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 04:11:17 PM
haven't heard anything, but I'd bet that Gary plays and Black gets some limited reps as well. If Black gets some reps this game, he'll probably be starting vs Penn State. If not- doubt he really plays vs Penn State.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 04:20:24 PM
agreed.
Michigan State is an annoying little brother that as of late has stepped up to become a real pain in the ass. I don't really see them as Michigan's rival. Just being honest. They are more of a nuisance than anything. Really wish we didn't even play them. Nothing to gain by beating them and everything to lose by losing to them. I see ND as a bigger rival than MSU to be honest.

Ohio State is the rival. Period. That is the only game that truly matters in my mind.
Huh?  He said Michigan is to Michigan State what Ohio State is to Michigan.
I agree.
He said he actually disagrees because Michigan State actually beats Michigan, whereas Michigan never beats Ohio State.  His words, not mine.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 16, 2018, 04:26:27 PM
ELA is exceptionally grouchy today. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 04:31:16 PM
Grouchy in clarifying a post?

Sorry, I'll just sit back and let the men discuss little brothers and whatnot.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 16, 2018, 04:37:10 PM
Whether you like the "Super Bowl" cliché or not, it is quite commonplace in colloquial CFB vernacular. I used it with far more clarity than your rebuke of it, which was vague and confusing as all get out.

"Lol" and "UM is MSU's Ohio State" are the exact antithesis of expressing your distaste of that term with clarity. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 04:41:41 PM
Whether you like the "Super Bowl" cliché or not, it is quite commonplace in colloquial CFB vernacular. I used it with far more clarity than your rebuke of it, which was vague and confusing as all get out.

"Lol" and "UM is MSU's Ohio State" are the exact antithesis of expressing your distaste of that term with clarity.
I'm sorry the meaning "UM is MSU's Ohio State" in response to "UM is MSU's Super Bowl" wasn't clear to you.  I clarified.

And yes, it is common place, when used correctly.  UM was our Super Bowl when we were 3-9 and had nothing to play for but pride.  But saying UM IS our Super Bowl is just flat wrong.  It's not a matter of not liking the cliche, it's a matter of using the cliche correctly that I disagreed with.  MSU has played in enough much bigger games than a rivalry game over the past decade, that going with that narrative there is lazy and outdated....you know like Michigan football.  :)
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 16, 2018, 05:07:52 PM

Oh okay. Sounds fair. 

**smiles, nods, backs away slowly**
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Reyd on October 16, 2018, 05:28:14 PM
MSU hates UM as much as UM hates tOSU. I thought that was easy to figure out.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 16, 2018, 05:38:11 PM
MSU hates UM as much as UM hates tOSU. I thought that was easy to figure out.

I'm not sure hate is the right word for M-OSU. I'm not being cute "about needing a bigger, darker word" or anything either. It's intense but generally respectful.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Reyd on October 16, 2018, 05:52:12 PM
Players have much more respect for their opponents than most fans do.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 16, 2018, 06:22:13 PM
Players have much more respect for their opponents than most fans do.
I'm not sure how much respect there is between M and MSU. Whenever I watch it looks like the dirtiest contest in CFB that year.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 10:39:44 PM
Players have much more respect for their opponents than most fans do.
not sure the fans or players for Michigan-Sparty respect one another.
Michigan-OSU is just different. It's not comparable. At all.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 16, 2018, 10:47:07 PM
again...this game scares the hell out of me. Leaning towards Sparty unfortunately. Just not a believer in Jim Harbaugh on the road. The outcome of this game could be a big difference in how Michigan's season unfolds rolling into Columbus for the final game of the season. They win this one, they're rolling into Columbus 10-1. I'm supremely confident of that.

Lose it? That craters the entire season. They'll be 6-2 and down in the dumps mentally and emotionally and that 6-2 could turn into 6-3 or 6-4 before you know it.

This is the most important game of the season. It's a make or break game. Win it. You're 10-1 rolling into C-bus with a chance to play for it all. Lose it? Bye bye birdie.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 16, 2018, 11:40:28 PM
I'm torn between MSU by 3 or less or UM by 14+.

The points are irrelevant to me, I don't see a UM win that fails to cover.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Reyd on October 17, 2018, 02:22:18 AM
As goes Detroit so goes the nation (1930s). As goes Detroit so goes Michigan (1960s). As goes Detroit so goes Detroit (current).  
Detroit is Detroit. Everything outside Detroit and it's sphere of influence is Michigan. That makes UofM Detroit and MSU Michigan. Detroit held economic influence over the state and slighted everything outside of it and it's influence including MSU. That is the emotion MSU taps into for the rivalry. That makes it a little closer to home and primal.
My opinion and mine alone.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 17, 2018, 07:29:38 AM
I'm torn between MSU by 3 or less or UM by 14+.

The points are irrelevant to me, I don't see a UM win that fails to cover.
So "NO WAY" in other words
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 17, 2018, 07:33:05 AM
I'm not sure how much respect there is between M and MSU. Whenever I watch it looks like the dirtiest contest in CFB that year.
not sure the fans or players for Michigan-Sparty respect one another.
That's why this game is watched for it's fire & intensity,like Bama-Auburn or Fla-Fl.St use to be and will be again.In state rivals have a hatred all their own.Of course Mike Hart bumping his gums and the arrival of MD have ratched things up
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 17, 2018, 07:45:34 AM
UM attracting future honorary captains left and right

https://www.wxyz.com/news/fmr-iranian-president-mahmoud-ahmadinejad-tweets-support-for-michigan-football
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 17, 2018, 09:39:57 AM
Ha, I saw that. One of the only negatives to having a world audience is that you attract ALL kinds of people. I'm not sure the story with him but my early guess is that he has M alumni as close friends/advisers.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 17, 2018, 11:23:45 AM
Ha, I saw that. One of the only negatives to having a world audience is that you attract ALL kinds of people. I'm not sure the story with him but my early guess is that he has M alumni as close friends/advisers.
Don't say Unabomber...don't say Unabomber...don't say Unabomber
Darth Vader?

(https://i0.wp.com/insidethemagic.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Vader.png?resize=800%2C400&ssl=1)
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on October 17, 2018, 11:36:00 AM
If Michigan scores a touchdown I'm shouting allahu akbar.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 17, 2018, 11:37:00 AM
If Michigan scores a touchdown I'm shouting allahu akbar.
If Michigan doesn't, I will
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 17, 2018, 04:23:19 PM
Don't say Unabomber...don't say Unabomber...don't say Unabomber
Darth Vader?

(https://i0.wp.com/insidethemagic.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Vader.png?resize=800%2C400&ssl=1)
Hah. Don't let me ruin a good joke with a serious response, but I meant other Iranians or even Palestinians, Iraqis, Syrians, and Turks. I don't actually know the numbers, but in undergrad it was my best guess that very many well-to-do Middle Easterners (Persia and beyond), send their children to Ann Arbor to get a leg up on the world. And how could I be surprised if some end up in politics?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: msufan23 on October 17, 2018, 06:38:31 PM
Harbaughs biggest fan boy in the house
https://twitter.com/TheHerd/status/1052643408441819136
Am I too late to add to the Klatt info??
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 17, 2018, 06:56:51 PM
Gary is out. 

Man did they mishandle that shoulder injury. Should’ve had him on ice to start the season. 

Sounds like he won’t be back til Penn State.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 17, 2018, 07:00:27 PM
FWIW, and some of these kids are getting really good at trolling their own face bases on social media, but Josiah Scott put out today just a picture of his feet with cleats on.

Let the wild speculation begin.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 17, 2018, 08:18:34 PM
Gary is out.

Man did they mishandle that shoulder injury. Should’ve had him on ice to start the season.
(1) Have you reviewed his medical charts since the last time you said that?
(2) It's not impossible that Gary does not return this year. And it could still have been entirely reasonable to play him full through UMd
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 17, 2018, 11:19:49 PM
I used to enjoy this Daily v. TSN piece every year, but it's gotten quite ... stale isn't the right word, bad isn't quite it, either ... but definitely repetitive and unfunny. 

It used to be like a comedy roast battle and the question was whose jokes were more clever and actually landed. Now, the Michigan Daily guy dryly collects examples of The State News's literary mistakes, without caring how many stereotypes he's reinforcing about himself, and both sides drone forever about the annual all-newspaper-staff football game that no one reading cares about.
I'm not ready to assume the good versions are gone forever, but it sure doesn't feel likely they'll ever come back.
https://www.michigandaily.com/section/football/dueling-columns-michigan-daily-vs-state-news-2
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on October 18, 2018, 08:42:55 AM
Any good Sparty podcasts out there?  I'd like to listen in on the enemy.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 18, 2018, 01:21:14 PM
Any good Sparty podcasts out there?  I'd like to listen in on the enemy.
As far as I know, no.
There are 3 that I'm aware of...
1.) Enlightened Spartan - his only advantage was being first to the blog thing.  He was on that back when Saban was at MSU.  But he's not particularly good, and is absolutely disconnected from the program.  Not even entirely sure he still has a podcast, but when he did, it wasn't better than his blog.
2.) I can't remember the name, but there's one that I can't stand out there, namely because the host used to be a poster on a private MSU board I used to participate in.  His level of arrogance is unbearable.  And his connections were mainly on the basketball side.  His co-host is also somehow dialed into the MI HS basketball scene, which was valuable maybe even a decade ago, but with the rise in AAU, and all of the top end MI recruits trnasferring to out of state prep schools, a deep dive into MI HS hoops has a very limited audience.
3.) Valenti's radio show.  Valenti is at time obnoxious, even to MSU fans.  I think he has a place, and I know MSU fans appreciate a lone pro-MSU voice in the Detroit media, but I can't imagine as a rival there's anything worth listneing to there.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 18, 2018, 01:59:29 PM
(1) Have you reviewed his medical charts since the last time you said that?
(2) It's not impossible that Gary does not return this year. And it could still have been entirely reasonable to play him full through UMd
He's been dealing with the same nagging shoulder injury since the 2nd half of last season. Instead of leaning on him to get surgery and rehab in the off-season - they didn't.

He re-aggravated the shoulder in fall camp a week before the season started and instead of shutting him down they let him "show his toughness" and play through it and all that happened was they made it worse and aggravated it more and he's missed the last 3 games and will miss this one as well. The "insiders" are saying there's a chance he won't play rest of the year. Which is flat out crazy. Could be seeing another Nick Bosa situation. Gary has nothing to gain by playing and everything to lose. Even if he doesn't play another down he's a 1st round pick in the 2019 draft.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 18, 2018, 02:03:56 PM
UM attracting future honorary captains left and right

https://www.wxyz.com/news/fmr-iranian-president-mahmoud-ahmadinejad-tweets-support-for-michigan-football

He's just trying to get the madman to bring his kids to Iran for vacation this spring.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 18, 2018, 02:14:01 PM
He's just trying to get the madman to bring his kids to Iran for vacation this spring.
I was thinking he was a heavy contributor to the UM money laundering...I mean endowment fund
#rivalryweek
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 18, 2018, 02:22:53 PM
Gary has nothing to gain by playing and everything to lose. Even if he doesn't play another down he's a 1st round pick in the 2019 draft.
I dunno,potentially sure but do you think his body of work up to this point exceeds Hands(4th rd) or Hursts(5th rd)?IMO it hasn't which of course doesn't mean it won't on Sunday's.So I suppose it depends on draft depth at the position and team needs heading in
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 18, 2018, 02:25:17 PM
I dunno,potentially sure but do you think his body of work up to this point exceeds Hands(4th rd) or Hursts(5th rd)?IMO it hasn't which of course doesn't mean it won't on Sunday's.So I suppose it depends on draft depth at the position and team needs heading in
Of course it exceeds Da'Shawn Hand's. Hand was a pretty bad college player who never started at Alabama.
Hurst is killing the NFL and the only reason he fell to the 5th round was because of the heart condition.
Rashan Gary is a 1st round pick even if he doesn't play another down.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 18, 2018, 02:28:29 PM
He's been dealing with the same nagging shoulder injury since the 2nd half of last season. Instead of leaning on him to get surgery and rehab in the off-season - they didn't.

I have some training in this area. Since his shoulder isn't permanently drooped and he could play at all, we have some sense of the "grade" of this AC injury. Injuries of those grades tend not to have a surgical option, tend not to progress, and "merely" present as painful. I haven't seen his charts, so of course it's somewhat irresponsible for me to say this. But no more irresponsible than promising that he was mismanaged.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 18, 2018, 02:30:33 PM
I have some training in this area. Since his shoulder isn't permanently drooped and he could play at all, we have some sense of the "grade" of this AC injury. Injuries of those grades tend not to have a surgical option, tend not to progress, and "merely" present as painful. I haven't seen his charts, so of course it's somewhat irresponsible for me to say this. But no more irresponsible than promising that he was mismanaged.
if he's really having that much of an issue and it doesn't require surgery they should've sent him to Panama to get stem cell treatments.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 18, 2018, 02:31:53 PM
Of course it exceeds Da'Shawn Hand's. Hand was a pretty bad college player who never started at Alabama.
Hurst is killing the NFL and the only reason he fell to the 5th round was because of the heart condition.
Rashan Gary is a 1st round pick even if he doesn't play another down.
Ya just looked that up hadn't paid any attention to bama as tOSU never met them.Isn't he playing decent for the Lions though?Gary & Hursts stats were almost identical last season - which was pretty good.Forgot about the heart condition
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 18, 2018, 02:37:02 PM
Hurst was a generational player. I'd call him the best DT in america last year (sorry, Ed Oliver) without flinching. Certainly was the best Michigan guy since I've been a fan (sorry Branch, Watson, and Glasgow).
It was pretty funny (except for Hurst's bank account) to watch so many NFL teams think that they were the first to spot this or that they cared more about Hurst and his health than Michigan. If a player plays for Michigan, he's been cleared by one of the best medical complexes on Earth. Everyone can sleep soundly that Hurst's heart was diagnosed, then vetted thoroughly, if not excessively.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 18, 2018, 02:42:56 PM
if he's really having that much of an issue and it doesn't require surgery they should've sent him to Panama to get stem cell treatments.
What he needs is a year of rest. Given his position, market value and aspirations, he could never allow himself to never practice or play. 
Until he gets paid, he's stuck.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 18, 2018, 02:57:02 PM
And of course now the rumors are going the other way, that he's practicing and this week or next, will play.

Is Harbaugh messing with us or is this real? No one knows.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 18, 2018, 03:08:05 PM
And of course now the rumors are going the other way, that he's practicing and this week or next, will play.

Is Harbaugh messing with us or is this real? No one knows.
if he was playing it’d have been announced. 
Gamesmanship is all this is. Make Sparty prepare for Gary. 
Have my doubts he plays. 
I hope to hell he prays. If he does could wind up being M’s version of that 2013 game where Sparty just overwhelmed M at the LoS and they finished the game with like -48 yards rushing. If Gary can go, not sure how MSU will block that Michigan front. It’s the weakest OL unit Dantonio has had in years and this might be the best M front 7 in ages with a healthy Gary.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 18, 2018, 03:19:15 PM
I will say versus Wisconsin, Paye was excellent in run defense. Various grades coming out this week put him as the most productive M DL versus the Badgers - even over Winovich. And his pass rush is a "+" also. Can't really afford to keep descending down the depth chart, though.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 18, 2018, 03:22:57 PM
I will say versus Wisconsin, Paye was excellent in run defense. Various grades coming out this week put him as the most productive M DL versus the Badgers - even over Winovich. And his pass rush is a "+" also. Can't really afford to keep descending down the depth chart, though.
Winovich is pretty bad at setting the edge. Both of Wisc long runs on those end arounds were pretty much his fault. 
I’d start Gary and Paye and use Winovich as a pass rush specialist.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 18, 2018, 03:27:06 PM
this might be the best M front 7 in ages with a healthy Gary.
2016 was deeper Line with Charlton,Wormley,Mone,Hurst,Glasgow,Gary,Glasgow.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 18, 2018, 03:28:49 PM
As for Michigan, since we finally have LBs, that could be true. Though the 2016 DL was filthier than this. Taco/Wormley/Gary/Winovich at end. And then it was Glasgow/Godin/Hurst and someone I'm forgetting. That was a DL for the ages. I mean, Hurst may have been the most impactful player on his few snaps AND HE WASN'T EVEN A STARTER.

The LBs thing might make you right, though. The 2016 LBs were "fine." I still remember how that season began. That team could have played with a starting DL, Peppers, all DBs and still gotten those early shut outs. Obviously offenses would have changed their calls if Michigan were only using 9 guys on defense. But what I mean is that, with how well the DL+Peppers were playing, the LBs didn't even need to be there.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 18, 2018, 03:35:44 PM
As for Michigan, since we finally have LBs, that could be true. Though the 2016 DL was filthier than this. Taco/Wormley/Gary/Winovich at end. And then it was Glasgow/Godin/Hurst and someone I'm forgetting. 
Mone
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 18, 2018, 03:41:44 PM
Winovich is pretty bad at setting the edge. Both of Wisc long runs on those end arounds were pretty much his fault.
I’d start Gary and Paye and use Winovich as a pass rush specialist.
The jet sweep TD was primarily on the CB (Watson) who didn't crack replace when Kinnel came up to run through a crack block (Watson needed to back off but got confused).
Later on, UW called the same play, the safety again came down to run through a crack block, and finally Watson replaced. The result: 2 yards. This one was with a little more than 2min remaining in the 3rd.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 18, 2018, 08:30:46 PM
well, now the insider chat is Gary will be back. Wtf. Who knows what to think. If he is back, that's a big plus for Michigan. Not sure there is a better DE at setting the edge against the run than Gary in the entire nation.

State was probably going to have trouble running the ball even if he wasn't starting. If he is actually starting? Man. They will have to really get creative and lucky to get any yards on the ground.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 18, 2018, 08:34:16 PM
well, now the insider chat is Gary will be back. Wtf. Who knows what to think. If he is back, that's a big plus for Michigan. Not sure there is a better DE at setting the edge against the run than Gary in the entire nation.

State was probably going to have trouble running the ball even if he wasn't starting. If he is actually starting? Man. They will have to really get creative and lucky to get any yards on the ground.
Isn't that what you and I were talking about in this thread today ~3PM?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 18, 2018, 08:35:41 PM
2016 was deeper Line with Charlton,Wormley,Mone,Hurst,Glasgow,Gary,Glasgow.
Not sure it was as talented or explosive. Outside of Hurst. Gary and Mone both honestly rarely played in 2016 so I wouldn't exactly include them in there.
Winovich, Paye, Uche, Dwumfour, Gary, and even Aidan Hutchinson are all way more explosive than Charlton, Glasgow, or Wormley ever dreamed of being.
The only guy who matched that kind of explosion is Hurst and he wasn't a starter on that line 2016.
This line is better imo.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 18, 2018, 09:33:10 PM
I think this DL is better sliiiightly on the outside. But there's NO WAY it is better on the inside. Just compare Wisconsin's success on the ground versus Michigan these two seasons.
The Badgers earning that many 5-6 yard runs against Michigan last weekend made me sick. Yes, they have the best OL in the nation and perhaps the best RB. But that doesn't mean they are unstoppable. Glasgow was far more immoveable than anyone we have now.
The interior pass rush may be better this year (*maybe*), but the run D is like 8 ladder rungs away.
It could/will get closer with Solomon getting back to full strength. He was clearly our best interior lineman versus UW, albeit on very few snaps.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 18, 2018, 09:40:20 PM
well, now the insider chat is Gary will be back. Wtf. Who knows what to think. If he is back, that's a big plus for Michigan. Not sure there is a better DE at setting the edge against the run than Gary in the entire nation.

State was probably going to have trouble running the ball even if he wasn't starting. If he is actually starting? Man. They will have to really get creative and lucky to get any yards on the ground.
I think it's possible we are underestimating MSU's run game (seeing as they've never played a game this season with their full preseason OL starter list ... but right now, they'll have 4 of those 5 back. They'll take a step forward. And they always find some way to smack Michigan. This feels like a doublesmack.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on October 19, 2018, 07:33:47 AM
If Gary is not back I have a lot of confidence in Paye who has been playing very well.  If Michigan's DL was able to limit Wisconsin's run game they should be able to handle Sparty's.  Lewerke does add a new dimension with his feet that Wisconsin did not have.  He's likely better throwing on the move too.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2018, 07:45:40 AM
I think it's possible we are underestimating MSU's run game (seeing as they've never played a game this season with their full preseason OL starter list ... but right now, they'll have 4 of those 5 back. They'll take a step forward. And they always find some way to smack Michigan. This feels like a doublesmack.
Have you heard more about Jarvis?  I haven't heard one way or the other whether he'll play.
I think what we are missing more might be Madre London, who took a grad transfer to Tennessee to get more PT.  We basically got a game and a quarter out of LJ Scott.  I think La'Darius Jefferson will be good, but he's a true freshman, and Conor Heyward is ok, but I still think his move to RB was 100% need based, and it can't be his best position.  Behind a line like this, we could use a back with better vision.  Jefferson as a true freshman who was playing QB last year, and Heyward, who most thought would wind up at LB, simply don't have it.  Don't get me wrong, the OL, for whatever reason has been awful in run blocking, but their poor vision hasn't helped matters.
Lewerke may throw the ball 50 times.  And with White still out, and Stewart and Nailor unclear, that may not be a winning strategy either.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 19, 2018, 10:00:27 AM
Winovich, Paye, Uche, Dwumfour, Gary, and even Aidan Hutchinson are all way more explosive than Charlton, Glasgow, or Wormley ever dreamed of being.
The only guy who matched that kind of explosion is Hurst and he wasn't a starter on that line 2016.
This line is better imo.
Charlton had  like 10 sacks on the season and like 14 tfl's,that's pretty damn explosive.Have to wait to the end of the year to tally this groups numbers.I just remember that defense being pretty damn stoudt as a unit.Not sure about Sparty's O-Line but this year's edition of tOSU's has been underwhelming after losing 3 starters from last year.So not sure how M's line can be graded there.ND got Tommy Kraemer and Liam Eichenberg the top two players in Ohio in 2016 and it has panned out handsomely(for them).Man was I fooking P.O'd when they both left the state.So ND is the barometer for the season.And this could be the year M faces them again
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 19, 2018, 10:20:16 AM
I haven't heard. But this week I don't think we would have learned nuggets like that from the inside this week. And he's seemed close for weeks. Not exactly 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 19, 2018, 10:21:39 AM
Charlton had  like 10 sacks on the season and like 14 tfl's,that's pretty damn explosive.Have to wait to the end of the year to tally this groups numbers.I just remember that defense being pretty damn stoudt as a unit.Not sure about Sparty's O-Line but this year's edition of tOSU's has been underwhelming after losing 3 starters from last year.So not sure how M's line can be graded there.ND got Tommy Kraemer and Liam Eichenberg the top two players in Ohio in 2016 and it has panned out handsomely(for them).Man was I fooking P.O'd when they both left the state.So ND is the barometer for the season.And this could be the year M faces them again
Yeah, by the end of the year, especially against OSU, Taco was an all-timer like Brandon Graham or Woodley. He didn't have the full career like them, but he ended at the same level.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 19, 2018, 01:31:47 PM
Lewerke may throw the ball 50 times.  And with White still out, and Stewart and Nailor unclear, that may not be a winning strategy.
May not be? If he throws it 50 times that sounds like it’d be a disaster for MSU.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2018, 01:36:22 PM
May not be? If he throws it 50 times that sounds like it’d be a disaster for MSU.
Obviously if he doesn't have to throw it's better, but he's thrown it 50+ times to beat Penn State each of the last two years.  So they CAN win by doing that, and the delta between their run blocking and pass blocking seems astronomical right now.  I think a big portion of that is Chewins' back injury.  It seem like he feels better moving and finding a guy to put a body on, rather than going straight up in run blocking.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 19, 2018, 01:39:55 PM
Obviously if he doesn't have to throw it's better, but he's thrown it 50+ times to beat Penn State each of the last two years.  So they CAN win by doing that, and the delta between their run blocking and pass blocking seems astronomical right now.  I think a big portion of that is Chewins' back injury.  It seem like he feels better moving and finding a guy to put a body on, rather than going straight up in run blocking.
Penn State’s defense does not equal Michigan’s defense. They are in completely different lanes. 
Lewerke got away with like 5 ints alone vs Penn State. Balls that were thrown right to defenders that should’ve been picked. Michigan’s DBs are not dropping those. He throws the ball to them, they will catch it.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2018, 02:23:47 PM
Penn State’s defense does not equal Michigan’s defense. They are in completely different lanes.
Lewerke got away with like 5 ints alone vs Penn State. Balls that were thrown right to defenders that should’ve been picked. Michigan’s DBs are not dropping those. He throws the ball to them, they will catch it.
I don't get the point.  Yes, Michigan's defense is a lot better, against both pass and run.  It's not like UM is back 4 loaded and PSU is front 4 loaded.  With the central point still being that MSU doesn't only throw the ball when down multiple scores.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2018, 04:32:04 PM

***BIG TEN GAME OF THE WEEK***
#6 Michigan Wolverines (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State Spartans (2-1, 4-2)
NOON - East Lansing, MI - FOX
I've gone back and forth all week on this one.  On paper, Michigan looks better, maybe substantially better.  But that is about par for the course.  Michigan has been favored in 6 of the last 9 matchups, and they've lost 4 of those times they were favored.  The Spartans have won 8 of 10 outright, and covered in all 10.  So that's been a decade straight where Michigan has not performed up to the pregame expectations.  This week Michigan is favored for the 7th time in 10 games, by 7 points.  Michigan doesn't care if they make it 11 straight years losing against the spread if they get the W.  Michigan State shouldn't care about that number either, there's no "Defeat with Dignity" here.  Granted there's also no referendum on them if they don't win.  That certainly isn't the case for Michigan, which has to get a win here and/or in Columbus to prevent the offseason roars from becoming deafening.  But they also can't make this game about that, this team is too good.  Last weekend's craziness has ensured Michigan controls their own destiny when it comes to the College Football Playoff.  So while beating Michigan State and Ohio State is important, that's not what defines the second half of this season.  It's a season split between six cakewalk games and six massive tests to Harbaugh's program.  Through the first three of those tests, Michigan is 2-1.  What looked impossible in the preseason looks a little different now.  Northwestern, Wisconsin, Michigan State and Penn State for sure do not look as formidable as they did preseason, and while it seems weird to say this about the #2 team in the nation, neither does Ohio State.  The Spartans circled the wagons last week and pulled out a shorthanded stunner in Happy Valley, their 5th win in the last 6 games in the "rivalry," after losing 8 of the previous 10.  If there's one thing Mark Dantonio has figured out, it's how to get his teams up for their three huge divisional games.  Michigan State got slightly more creative with the playcalling than they had in previous weeks, trying to generate something from an offense that was down a starting running back, starting fullback, both starting guards, and was playing with one healthy scholarship receiver.  They didn't get a ton of offense, but they got just enough.  I doubt Michigan makes the same mistakes, leaving Felton Davis in single coverage far too often.  Granted I kind of hope we see another battle between an MSU wide receiver and a UM cornerback like the show that Aaron Burbridge and Jourdan Lewis put on in 2015.  Nobody is doing anything against this Michigan defense right now though.  Michigan State's defense has been mostly up to the task too.  They played better against the pass last week, the emergence of Khari Willis at safety has really helped there.  Josiah Scott, the Spartans' best cornerback, who has missed the entire season, left some hints on social media that he'd be dressing, but if he's been practicing at all, it's been kept under wraps.  Shea Patterson has looked more and more comfortable each week, and as he's done so he's looked like more and more a threat in the running game.  The offense with him rolling out of the pocket is just so much better than when they try to force him into being the type of quarterback Harbaugh wants, which I think is the exact same type Bo wanted.  Michigan State's defense has to prove they've improved a lot from Week 2, because what Manny Wilkins brought to the table is similar to what Patterson will.  A great thrower, who is mobile enough to keep you honest, but still would ideally keep his head up and find the open receiver downfield.  Wilkins missed on a couple of those, that Michigan State can't bank on Patterson missing.  Granted Michigan doesn't have anyone, right now, like N'Keal Harry.  A lot of what worked for Arizona State were the short crossing routes.  Not the quick stuff that Clayton Thorson nickel and dimed Michigan State to death with, but longer developing plays, taking advantage of Wilkins buying extra time, and of Michigan State's lack of speed at the safety position.  Patterson can hurt them the same way.  So how can Michigan State win?  Trade 3s for 7s.  Michigan State is going to have some three and outs.  I'd be shocked if Michigan doesn't win the yardage battle.  So the Spartans have to convert the limited red zone shots they have, and keep force Nordin on to the field plenty for Michigan, who has struggled some this year.  This is not without precedent, Michigan is only scoring touchdowns on 52.6% of their red zone possessions.  Only Rutgers (50%) is worst.  Conversely, Michigan State has only allowed touchdowns on 33.3% of their defensive red zone possessions, best in the conference, Michigan has allowed them on 75% of theirs, fifth worst.  That's probably the only way this will happen, because I have a tough time seeing Michigan State generating much.  But after picking Michigan to win this three years in a row, and being wrong twice, maybe I'll trust Michigan State in this rivalry until Michigan proves me wrong.  I also already picked Michigan State to beat Northwestern comfortably, but lose to Indiana and badly to Penn State, so I clearly don't know my own team anyway.
MICHIGAN STATE 27, MICHIGAN 26
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 19, 2018, 05:05:25 PM
Michigan’s DBs are not dropping those. He throws the ball to them, they will catch it.
Proclamations you think your db won't drop passes - there is a reason they're not WR's.And didn't you call MSU getting slain last week?Hope it's a 1 pt game settled with time running out.Just saw that ELA,Atta Boy Sparty,early game i may not even have a frosty before it's over
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 19, 2018, 06:49:44 PM
Posters on the Red Cedar saying LJ'll be there
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 19, 2018, 07:23:57 PM
Posters on the Red Cedar saying LJ'll be there
Report out tonight saying he is.  Sound like it may have been turf toe?  I mean, he's a senior, leaving anyway most likely.  Might as well give it a try.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2018, 10:26:09 AM
Apparently Devin Bush went out and started tearing up the midfield logo with his cleats during walk through this morning until an MSU assistant AD stopped him.  Pretty fiery for a non rivalry
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2018, 10:53:29 AM
Apparently Devin Bush went out and started tearing up the midfield logo with his cleats during walk through this morning until an MSU assistant AD stopped him.  Pretty fiery for a non rivalry
https://twitter.com/DeeMac02/status/1053652592566460416?s=19
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: MaximumSam on October 20, 2018, 10:53:49 AM
MSU is Michigan's Super Bowl
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2018, 11:07:08 AM
https://twitter.com/DeeMac02/status/1053652592566460416?s=19
Yeah, not a big fan of Bush kicking up the Spartan at centerfield like that. Maybe something preceded it that could make me feel somewhat differently, but either way, no, that's pretty dumb. Makes us look bad.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2018, 11:07:37 AM
I'm glad I worded that cautiously because now we see video of MSU team walking right over a few Michigan players warming up on the field.
I feel like had there been enough stadium staff around, that never happens.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2018, 11:11:20 AM
I hate that we hate canned answers but then get mad when something like this happens. It's passion I actually like it
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2018, 11:23:07 AM
I hate that we hate canned answers but then get mad when something like this happens. It's passion I actually like it
I've never considered it like that - interesting.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2018, 11:24:54 AM
I've never considered it like that - interesting.
It's not like he took a cheap shot, or tried to injure some guy.  You do stuff like this, you should probably back it up. And if you don't, and are ok answering for it, I really have no issue with it.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2018, 12:18:07 PM
It's not like he took a cheap shot, or tried to injure some guy.  You do stuff like this, you should probably back it up. And if you don't, and are ok answering for it, I really have no issue with it.
Like getting posterized by a stiff arm on your second play is not an ideal follow.up.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: CatsbyAZ on October 20, 2018, 12:34:09 PM
Well crap how long is this weather delay going to take?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 20, 2018, 12:41:17 PM
MSU is Michigan's Super Bowl
think it's the other way around buddy.
The players and staff of Sparty look way more fired up. Kind of disappointed in how lackadaisical the Michigan coaches/players have looked.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2018, 12:46:39 PM
Offensively, yes.  Defensively, Bush, Long and Mettellus look like they want to eat someone's young on every play.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (4-0, 6-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-1, 4-2) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 20, 2018, 12:49:26 PM
Offensively, yes.  Defensively, Bush, Long and Mettellus look like they want to eat someone's young on every play.
those guys kinda always play like that though. Especially Bush.
Harbaugh looks like he's on some kind of antidepressant meds honestly. Wouldn't surprise me at all if he because: he's a crazy person. Dude has just lost his edge completely.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2018, 05:01:42 PM
I didn't realize he was striking the Bunyan pose:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dp-t6UdWkAA2smg.jpg)
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 20, 2018, 05:23:57 PM
Yeah but it was Sparty. Harbaugh's already beaten them before. So that's nothing new. He just does it a little bit less inconsistently now.

He still hasn't beaten Notre Dame since he was at Stanford, nor OSU since he was a player.

And Bowl Games....
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on October 20, 2018, 05:35:19 PM

Harbaugh looks like he's on some kind of antidepressant meds honestly. Wouldn't surprise me at all if he because: he's a crazy person. Dude has just lost his edge completely.
For the most part he has some good assistants.So he has some solid help.So I hope things work out if he's on meds
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2018, 05:42:56 PM
For the most part he has some good assistants.So he has some solid help.So I hope things work out if he's on meds
I wouldn't go away thinking what MDot said about Harbaugh's health is true.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2018, 05:50:00 PM
Yeah but it was Sparty. Harbaugh's already beaten them before. So that's nothing new. He just does it a little bit less inconsistently now.

He still hasn't beaten Notre Dame since he was at Stanford, nor OSU since he was a player.

And Bowl Games....
They got the "Top 25 road win" monkey off their back. That's not everything but it's a key milestone that is far better to pass now than later.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on October 20, 2018, 05:51:46 PM
I wouldn't go away thinking what MDot said about Harbaugh's health is true.
Well the dude is different......Harbaugh/MDoT (https://www.cfb51.com/Smileys/fantasticsmileys/grin.gif)
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 20, 2018, 05:56:02 PM
I wouldn't go away thinking what MDot said about Harbaugh's health is true.
I would. He's not the same guy that used to be a psycho on the sidelines. I'd bet good money he's on some sort of meds. The guy is crazy after all.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2018, 05:58:29 PM
I would. He's not the same guy that used to be a psycho on the sidelines. I'd bet good money he's on some sort of meds. The guy is crazy after all.
Or he just decided getting irate at refs was doing his team more harm than good ... or maybe the health of his youngest child has him distracted ... or ... or.
The point is that it's reckless to say "oh definitely, it's mental health" just because something is consistent with that but then you don't account for the fifty other things that it's also consistent with.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2018, 06:01:19 PM
Not bad:
(https://mgoblog.com/sites/default/files/users/user17561/horniboi.jpg)
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2018, 06:30:45 PM
It would be funnier if that hadn't just been who Lewerke has been thisbyear, Utah State and Penn State games aside.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on October 20, 2018, 06:59:39 PM
LOL Chase Winovich acting like they just knocked off the 85 Bears
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: TyphonInc on October 20, 2018, 07:07:28 PM
It's not like he took a cheap shot, or tried to injure some guy.  You do stuff like this, you should probably back it up. And if you don't, and are ok answering for it, I really have no issue with it.
Our MSU fan doesn't have a problem with it, I don't have a problem with it.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 20, 2018, 08:31:59 PM
LOL Chase Winovich acting like they just knocked off the 85 Bears
They were the better team, and as I said, I don't mind anything Devin Bush did, backed it up, respect to him.  But good Lord Winovich and his VH1 Divas hair are about as dislikable a player as UM has trotted out in a long, long, long time.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 20, 2018, 09:22:10 PM
Really? I think he keeps his nose clean and comes off well. I'll admit he keeps taping over-zealous post-games. Did it after UW, too. I think the take away is that Chase is an over-hyper puppy (who happens to play football at an All-American level). But really, if some of the positive PR out there is to be believed, there are a few indications he's a nice guy.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: SuperMario on October 21, 2018, 10:16:32 AM
They were the better team, and as I said, I don't mind anything Devin Bush did, backed it up, respect to him.  But good Lord Winovich and his VH1 Divas hair are about as dislikable a player as UM has trotted out in a long, long, long time.
Really? I’m confused by this. There’s been Michigan players that I’ve disliked as a M fan because of their character or personality. Winovich seems like a really good kid. He was one of the most vocal leaders and advocates of the team supporting Chad tough last year. I think it’s easy to assume passion is arrogance. Seems like a good kid from almost all accounts.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: SuperMario on October 21, 2018, 10:18:57 AM


He still hasn't beaten Notre Dame since he was at Stanford, 
The ND v Michigan game was on a hiatus. This is the first game Harbaugh coaches at Michigan vs Notre Dame. A close loss to open the season on the road, at ND, is pretty understandable.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Temp430 on October 21, 2018, 12:40:29 PM
ESPN College Football Final did a number on Dantonio over the pre-game bush league BS.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 21, 2018, 12:46:28 PM
Judging by the posts above, Buckeye fans seem more fired up about Michigan than Spartan fans do.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 21, 2018, 01:26:20 PM
No matter what, as of Oct-2018, this game doesn't appear to have much of an emotional/motivational asymmetry. It sure used to. So now there'll be less variance maybe? Seemed like that yesterday.

Then again, Michigan did land two deflection receptions. That's at least half good fortune. It was fun to have some luck in this series again.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 21, 2018, 01:48:17 PM
A lot of attention will be paid to MSU's 94 yards of total offense, but you have to remember how injured they are and the defense they went up against. Maybe that should have been the prediction. 
Over on the other side of the ball is what we should really be looking at - the Michigan run game versus MSU's #1 overall run defense. That was surprising!
We all knew Warriner was working, but whoa the OL took a step up in this game.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Temp430 on October 22, 2018, 01:26:41 PM
Harbaugh goes off on Dantonio again.


[url=https://www.freep.com/videos/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2018/10/22/jim-harbaugh-goes-off-michigan-state-mark-dantonio/1728514002/]https://www.freep.com/videos/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2018/10/22/jim-harbaugh-goes-off-michigan-state-mark-dantonio/1728514002/ (https://www.freep.com/videos/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2018/10/22/jim-harbaugh-goes-off-michigan-state-mark-dantonio/1728514002/)[/url]

Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 22, 2018, 01:33:14 PM
Good for him, glad he's still thinking about it 48 hours later.

The right response from MD now is exactly that.  Go full snark.  That he's happy for their players, to see them rush the field like that, it's good for them.  A program win.  They haven't had a win like that in 12 years, so he's glad they are still enjoying it and thinking about it 2 days later.

I doubt that's what we get, but that's what I'm rooting for.

I do find it funny that a little bit of gamesmanship both ways is still somehow a story 2 days later, but whatever.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Temp430 on October 22, 2018, 01:48:18 PM
It sounds like Dantonio and his team were intentionally out of place.  If that is the case the league should get involved.  Given the bad blood between the two teams it needs to be managed from the moment the team buses roll onto campus until they leave.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 22, 2018, 01:50:41 PM
Good for him, glad he's still thinking about it 48 hours later.

The right response from MD now is exactly that.  Go full snark.  That he's happy for their players, to see them rush the field like that, it's good for them.  A program win.  They haven't had a win like that in 12 years, so he's glad they are still enjoying it and thinking about it 2 days later.

I doubt that's what we get, but that's what I'm rooting for.

I do find it funny that a little bit of gamesmanship both ways is still somehow a story 2 days later, but whatever.
Except they had a win like that 2 years ago. In 2016. Harbaugh is now 2-0 in East Lansing. Would be 3-1 against Sparty if not for that fluke blocked punt return for TD with 8 seconds left in the game. That will haunt me forever.

I honestly think a better play call than a punt there would've been to call a pass out of the shotgun with your most athletic QB and just tell the QB to sit in the pocket for 2-3 seconds, then run around for 2-3 more seconds and to roll out of the pocket to avoid an intentional grounding penalty and then at the last possible second to launch a ball as high and as far as he can in the air towards the sideline.

MSU probably wouldn't have gotten the ball back at all if you pull it off right and if they do get the ball back they'd have 1 second left max.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 22, 2018, 01:51:40 PM
I mean beating a ranked team on the road.  What was it like 17 in a row?  I just like answering snark with snark.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 22, 2018, 01:55:46 PM
I have no problem with Michigan players talking smack after the win. They earned the right to talk shit. They backed it up on the field.

I have a problem with Dantonio or MSU players or coaches acting like a bunch of sour pussies after the loss. You lost. Be a man and shut up and take the loss.

Got no problem with Chase talking smack to that dumb MSU fanboy reporter on twitter. None.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 22, 2018, 01:57:13 PM
And for the record I like the MSU players acting like this is our house and I liked Devin Bush cleating up the logo. Hell if I was him I would've dropped my pants and taken a fat shit right on the logo.

I like the attitude and the disrespect these guys have for one another. I love it actually.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 22, 2018, 02:02:33 PM
I have a problem with Dantonio or MSU players or coaches acting like a bunch of sour pussies after the loss. You lost. Be a man and shut up and take the loss.

I think your aim is a little off on which coach is still whining.

And FTR, I said pregame I had no problem with anything Devin Bush did, or anything that happened pregame
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 22, 2018, 02:11:07 PM
I think your aim is a little off on which coach is still whining.
Nah.
Dantonio clearly lied with his BS comment. There is video evidence he was just a few yards behind his team laughing his ass off.
And he also lied about Lewerke not practicing. Said he didn't practice. The OC Warner said he practiced all week. I think the OC would know.
Looks like he's just looking for lies and excuses for his juvenile behavior and his teams shitty performance. Injuries aren't an excuse. Every team has injuries. Maybe Mark just needs to shut up and start recruiting better in order to build depth. Really amazes me he doesn't recruit as well as he should. He's built a very good program, they have nice facilities and a nice stadium, they are in one of the two premier conferences (the other being the SEC) and he's put lots of guys into the NFL. He should be having top 25 classes every single year. His last 3 classes: #36, #31, and right now it's at 24th but that's largely because he landed the 5* in-stater Dobbs and his teammate the 4* DB Barnett. You remove them from that equation and their class would fall to #43. Every other commit he has besides those two are 3*'s.
Mark just needs to recruit better.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 22, 2018, 02:23:15 PM
The video also shows 3 UM players still on the field which lines up with the statement that they were asked to back up for a second and all of them except 3 did.  Granted I'm surprised they were able to still play after taking such a vicious "clothesline" following "an orchestrated stormstrooper "march."  You know one they've done 100+ times without issue.

https://twitter.com/DavidHarns/status/1054400986624811008

I just enjoy he's still so concerned about it 48 hours later AFTER A WIN.  This is the type of shit MSU used to do that would drive me crazy.

It's gamesmanship.  Clearly there was something miscommunicated.  MSU did their walk at the same time they always do.  They left their hotel at exactly 9:45, as they always do for a 12 game, takes about 15 minutes, there were 3 players who stayed on the field, they weren't going to back down, MSU wasn't going to back down and not do their walk.  It was what it was.  Bush did what he did.  I'm fine with it.  That's where the story ends.  Unless you are still whining about it 48 hours later.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Temp430 on October 22, 2018, 02:34:46 PM
Well, I don't want to see them swinging helmets at each other like in Miami a few years ago.  So pre-game contact obviously needs to be managed.  That should have been the coaching staff's job but if they're not doing it then the ADs and Big Ten need to get involved.   If Dantonio had his team out there intentionally for their line dance when they were suppose to be elsewhere he should be reprimanded.   Which I'm sure he'd wear as a badge of honor.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 22, 2018, 02:42:53 PM
Well, I don't want to see them swinging helmets at each other like in Miami a few years ago.  So pre-game contact obviously needs to be managed.  That should have been the coaching staff's job but if they're not doing it then the ADs and Big Ten need to get involved.   If Dantonio had his team out there intentionally for their line dance when they were suppose to be elsewhere he should be reprimanded.   Which I'm sure he'd wear as a badge of honor.
All we know regarding the timing is that MSU publicises they do their team walk from the hotel at 9:45.  They advertise it.  It usually takes about 15 minutes, they walk the field, then it's done.  UM came out at 9:50.  MSU arrived at 10:02.  My guess is someone from UM asked what time they did the walk at, they were told 9:45.  Somewhere someone probably should have clarified or asked what that meant.  UM comes out at 9:50, assumed they walked the field at 9:45 and are done, MSU arrives 10 minutes later.  MSU officials try to clear the field.  All except Bush, Hudson and one other player do.  They play a weird game of chicken.  Hudson, and whoever was walking where he was accommodated each other, unlocked arms and he turned sideways.  Whoever was lined up with Bush wasn't going to do that, Bush wasn't going to do what Hudson did, and you get what happened.  Bush goes crazy.  He's a captain.  His teammates voted him captain.  They know who he is.  They know that's what they like from him.  It fires them up.  Cool beans.  That's what captains do.  End of story, or not.  But certainly no big deal, either way, as I said on here Saturday morning.  I like everyone to be who they are.  97 guys on UM's roster are like, hey, let's step over here for a second.  Bush and Hudson say nah, but when it comes down to it, Hudson, and whatever MSU players walked around him have a limited level of asshole, and both sort of back down.  Bush, and whoever was over there didn't.  But it's authentic, and harmless.  Despite any hilarious attempts to play it up into something more.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 22, 2018, 03:13:42 PM
Love this. Rivalries are meant to be bitter. And I guess when you are the winning side of it you will love it. Michigan is finally as petty and vindictive as Coach D and Sparty have been for the last 8-9 years. It has fueled the "Spartan Dawgs" mantra and Dantonio's "60 minutes of unnecessary roughness" culture he has built. Finally Michigan is taking it seriously, fighting back, and beating the Spartans at their own game. Minus a couple miscues, this one would have been an absolute route. This was a more dominant performance than the Wisconsin game. 

The one thing I found odd is the Spartans rolling out with warmups on + their helmets. I know we have time stamp specialists and zapruder film specialists on each side really trying to break this down. Some of those specialists have highlighted previous instances of the Sparta walk where they did it without helmets, which makes sense when you recognize it's 90 MINUTES before a game and you have street clothes on. They knew the S***storm they wanted to create when they started this, and I don't dislike it. Good for the Michigan guys to stand their ground on their side of the 50. Devin Bush got his Tianemen Square Insta photo out of it too. 

Michigan can hang on it for a day or two while they rest up, and then move on to Penn State prep. 2 big games left + a sneaky one with Indiana. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 22, 2018, 03:19:53 PM
Devin Bush got his Tianemen Square Insta photo out of it too.
If I were him, that picture is blown up and hanging in my house forever
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 22, 2018, 03:25:24 PM
Lost in all of the bluster is the fact that Mark Dantonio is 13-12 since the beginning of the 2016 season. 3-6 against Michigan, Penn State, and Ohio State.

I know the Offensive Coordinator sits on a very hot seat right now, but that was a recognized problem going into the season. MD chose to roll with it. Crowley Sullivan should have plenty of loaded questions for the next Dantonio presser. I get the heat on Harbaugh. The jury is still out on how this season plays out. Does Dantonio face some heat now? He built the empire, but it has some cracks in the foundation, and like Harbaugh, it appears loyalty and stubbornness might be holding him back to some degree.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 22, 2018, 03:35:11 PM
Lost in all of the bluster is the fact that Mark Dantonio is 13-12 since the beginning of the 2016 season. 3-6 against Michigan, Penn State, and Ohio State.

I know the Offensive Coordinator sits on a very hot seat right now, but that was a recognized problem going into the season. MD chose to roll with it. Crowley Sullivan should have plenty of loaded questions for the next Dantonio presser. I get the heat on Harbaugh. The jury is still out on how this season plays out. Does Dantonio face some heat now? He built the empire, but it has some cracks in the foundation, and like Harbaugh, it appears loyalty and stubbornness might be holding him back to some degree.
While he SHOULD be, unfortunately I don't think he is.  Dantonio's loyalty will be the end of him.  Not in terms of a hot seat, he'll retire in East Lansing, MSU fans are not unrealistic as to what they are.  Basically we were hoping Dantonio would be our Ferentz, make us Iowa, and he's exceeded that.  We are the #2 program in a state without a ton of high school talent, with a helmet school within our state as well as both border states (excluding the UP touching Wisconsin).  2013-2015 so vastly exceeded expectations, but I don't think anyone thought those days were going to last forever when you are in a division with 3 helmet schools.

Honestly, any year we finish higher than 4th in the division, we've exceeded expectations, and most MSU fans know that.  If Dantonio does just as good a job as Meyer, Harbaugh or Franklin, MSU will finish 4th.  He has to be better than all 3, every year, and that simply isn't realistic.  And that's ok.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 22, 2018, 03:43:29 PM
MSU was #10 in S&P+ offense in 2013.  Since then...#31, #66, #92, #96.  Yet Dave Warner is still there.

I don't want another retread in Don Treadwell, but he's back on staff as an advisor, make him the OC for the rest of the year, and then go hire one in the offseason.  He was MSU's OC from 2007-2010, taking over a dumpster fire program, and only finished outside the top 25 in Offensive S&P+ once, when they were #41.  Hell, back then we wondered when Dantonio would fire Narduzzi and go get a real DC to stop squandering Treadwell's offenses.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 22, 2018, 03:54:46 PM
You bring up a good point on Dantonio having to be be better than the other bunch. He is a better developer of talent than the other three. Motivator too. But, you need Assistant's that help support it all. MD might be lagging a bit in that area for the first time in forever. Loyalty can be the death of many Head Coaches. Urban paid a dear price this last offseason. It has hampered Harbaugh as noted. Thankfully the O-Line change finally happened. 

Sidenote, I follow the offensive coaching staff at Michigan State very closely. Brad Salem recruited and coached a family member of mine at his last stop. I am genuinely intrigued with his career path and success with the QB's. I will be curious to see where he lands in any shakeup.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Honestbuckeye on October 22, 2018, 04:50:52 PM
I think your aim is a little off on which coach is still whining.

And FTR, I said pregame I had no problem with anything Devin Bush did, or anything that happened pregame
no doubt.  Simple factual question:  who started whining after the game?  Answer- Booger eater, just like always.  Whining about the refs or whining about the other team...seems like it never stops with him.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on October 22, 2018, 05:51:26 PM
Question:

Why is it Warner and not Bollman getting the blast? I'm admitting my ignorance here, but is there an indication Warner is the main guy?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 22, 2018, 06:02:45 PM
Question:

Why is it Warner and not Bollman getting the blast? I'm admitting my ignorance here, but is there an indication Warner is the main guy?
I'd be good with both of them gone, but Warner calls the plays.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 22, 2018, 06:37:30 PM
no doubt.  Simple factual question:  who started whining after the game?  Answer- Booger eater, just like always.  Whining about the refs or whining about the other team...seems like it never stops with him.
I always find it juvenile when grown adults throw out childish nicknames for coaches or schools, Michigan fans included. It cheapens all of what follows. It’s something  you see with frequency in the Twitter sphere and ESPN, but not often here.
It also must be quite the paradox for an Ohio State fan to critique a coaches press conferences. Glass houses and all. On the other hand who better to critique, given Urban Meyer’s run of failed offseason press conferences and statements, each time clarifying the previous one’s “misstatements.”
There has been a lot of back and forth in this Michigan and Michigan State rivalry between coaches and players. It’s what i would expect of a rivalry. The most agitated party appears to be some Ohio State fans. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Reyd on October 22, 2018, 07:02:22 PM
Can I whine about the whiner whining about the whiner?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on October 22, 2018, 07:27:32 PM
I'd be good with both of them gone, but Warner calls the plays.
Ahh, makes sense. 
I forgot Treadwell had been that good. Give him the job. Enos was interesting for a year or two, but then Arky went south. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 22, 2018, 07:32:44 PM
Ahh, makes sense.
I forgot Treadwell had been that good. Give him the job. Enos was interesting for a year or two, but then Arky went south.
well Enos was at Michigan for about 30 minutes then bolted for Alabama. Alabama's offense looks the best it ever has. Enos might be a name to watch for bigger jobs in the future if Alabama/Tua keep playing like this. And I see no reason why to think they won't keep smashing offensive records.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Honestbuckeye on October 22, 2018, 07:42:33 PM
I always find it juvenile when grown adults throw out childish nicknames for coaches or schools, Michigan fans included. It cheapens all of what follows. It’s something  you see with frequency in the Twitter sphere and ESPN, but not often here.
It also must be quite the paradox for an Ohio State fan to critique a coaches press conferences. Glass houses and all. On the other hand who better to critique, given Urban Meyer’s run of failed offseason press conferences and statements, each time clarifying the previous one’s “misstatements.”
There has been a lot of back and forth in this Michigan and Michigan State rivalry between coaches and players. It’s what i would expect of a rivalry. The most agitated party appears to be some Ohio State fans.
Well I am glad you feel that way. UM fans are the kings of juvenile nicknames.
But I find your response odd..in a thread where people are debating Harbooger and Dantonio, you feel the need to inject Meyer??
Have at it.  You can’t say anything about him that has not been said. It’s well documented that he is a horrible coach, the words biggest liar, a big phony, etc etc.
But I can’t remember a single case since he was at OSU where he whined about the other team or the officiating. The Michigan coach just can’t help himself, he can’t even take the high road after a big win.  But go ahead, blame it on Dantonio or Meyer or Ohio State fans.  
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 22, 2018, 07:55:29 PM
Well I am glad you feel that way. UM fans are the kings of juvenile nicknames.
But I find your response odd..in a thread where people are debating Harbooger and Dantonio, you feel the need to inject Meyer??
Have at it.  You can’t say anything about him that has not been said. It’s well documented that he is a horrible coach, the words biggest liar, a big phony, etc etc.
But I can’t remember a single case since he was at OSU where he whined about the other team or the officiating. The Michigan coach just can’t help himself, he can’t even take the high road after a big win.  But go ahead, blame it on Dantonio or Meyer or Ohio State fans.  
you're joking right?
Guy whined about too many camera men on the sideline after a win. Guy whined in front of the national media to get his Florida team in to the BCS title the year the Gators smoked Ohio State.
Dantonio is a complete asshole. I have no problem with his attitude/behavior. And I have no problem with Harbaugh calling him out. Most of these top coaches- newsflash: they are assholes. You don't become a great football coach being Mr. Rogers- hey everybody let's hold hands and sing songs.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 22, 2018, 07:59:11 PM
Enos was never OC at MSU.  Rumors are him and MD don't get along anyway, so I think that ship has sailed.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Honestbuckeye on October 22, 2018, 08:10:43 PM
you're joking right?
Guy whined about too many camera men on the sideline after a win. Guy whined in front of the national media to get his Florida team in to the BCS title the year the Gators smoked Ohio State.
Dantonio is a complete asshole. I have no problem with his attitude/behavior. And I have no problem with Harbaugh calling him out. Most of these top coaches- newsflash: they are assholes. You don't become a great football coach being Mr. Rogers- hey everybody let's hold hands and sing songs.
I clarified about Mira only since he’s been at OSU. When he was told how Barrett got injured because of too many cameramen on the sideline all he said was we need to look into that. Hardly whining. He doesn’t cry after a loss like hardball does and complain about the officiating. But we do agree that most successful head coaches are assholes. I would probably debate you on Dantonio who I think has more class than most coaches combined but that’s just me
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: SuperMario on October 22, 2018, 09:30:44 PM
People grouping together and hating all Michigan fans again. Must mean Michigan is good again. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2018, 09:48:11 PM
Granted I'm surprised they were able to still play after taking such a vicious "clothesline" following "an orchestrated stormstrooper "march."
Well ... storm troopers are mostly famous for their incompetence, right?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 22, 2018, 09:55:25 PM
In general, I think both teams managed this fine. Michigan didn't used to think MSU deserved notice. That drama like this (or even "caring" about MSU) was below them. And then came Pride Before the Fall and a decade of indirect begging that Michigan take MSU head-on. And now they have the rivalry they asked for. 
It's a pill Michigan fans may continue to enjoy watching go down. But no matter that future, 2018 has been the most evenly maxed out year in the emotions of this series.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Honestbuckeye on October 22, 2018, 10:10:53 PM
People grouping together and hating all Michigan fans again. Must mean Michigan is good again.
Meh- those truths were always true, and my position on Harbaugh has been rock solid from day one.   Good coach, real asshole.  Same way you feel about Meyer.
If a player from another team did and said what Winovich has, you would be ALL OVER
That player.   
Let’s not get the “ we can dish it out but we can’t take it” going on.    
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: SuperMario on October 22, 2018, 10:46:50 PM
Meh- those truths were always true, and my position on Harbaugh has been rock solid from day one.   Good coach, real asshole.  Same way you feel about Meyer.
If a player from another team did and said what Winovich has, you would be ALL OVER
That player.  
Let’s not get the “ we can dish it out but we can’t take it” going on.    
Nah, Harbaugh is just a really weird dude, whereas Meyer is a snake and a liar and a person that steps on others to raise himself up. That opinion was formed in Bowling Green 17 years ago and nothing I’ve seen since has changed that.
If I was an opposing fan, I’m sure I wouldn’t like Winovich if that interview  was mostly what I knew of him. Nearly everyone that comes across him loves his energy and his upbeat spirit towards life. Seems to be a very high character guy. He had an immature moment after a big win.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: FearlessF on October 22, 2018, 11:17:58 PM
I like it

I enjoy it

 a little more attitude and emotion creates more value

no one swung a helmet, no one was injured, no one suspended or punished

all in good clean fun

good for the B1G
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Reyd on October 22, 2018, 11:23:59 PM
The nervous chicken story is going to have lasted longer than this dust-up. This tiff was mentioned and most outside the local hate area are already moving on to the tOSU will they make the playoffs or not if they win out story.
 Harbaugh is/was posturing for the state recruits. He wants them to believe he is as tuff as Dantonio.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Honestbuckeye on October 23, 2018, 12:04:42 AM
Nah, Harbaugh is just a really weird dude, whereas Meyer is a snake and a liar and a person that steps on others to raise himself up. That opinion was formed in Bowling Green 17 years ago and nothing I’ve seen since has changed that.
If I was an opposing fan, I’m sure I wouldn’t like Winovich if that interview  was mostly what I knew of him. Nearly everyone that comes across him loves his energy and his upbeat spirit towards life. Seems to be a very high character guy. He had an immature moment after a big win.
So we agree to disagree who the real snake is.  It’s all good.  If I had an athlete primed to play in the big, there is only one coach I wouldn’t allow him to play for.  Reason being, one of my biggest teachings is the - no whining, no excuses, and be humble.  Harbaugh fails all three consistently.  But to you that is just weird I guess.  No harm no foul.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 23, 2018, 12:18:52 AM
So we agree to disagree who the real snake is.  It’s all good.  If I had an athlete primed to play in the big, there is only one coach I wouldn’t allow him to play for.  Reason being, one of my biggest teachings is the - no whining, no excuses, and be humble.  Harbaugh fails all three consistently.  But to you that is just weird I guess.  No harm no foul.
Values that a program instills are critically important to uphold. I can definitely see where you are coming from. They are so important they should be plastered at the front entrance of your complex to remind you to honor them each day.

When you were lobbing that pitch across the plate, let me tell you, it looked like a beach ball.


<br />(https://thumb.ibb.co/k97RWV/29902534-4312-437-E-81-CB-A2-C021360167.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k97RWV)<br />
(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fblob%3Ahttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.cfb51.com%2Fb5cac57b-f239-4f93-ad51-d4813b49fb64&hash=4f7dc9f3d8620391fdde77abf84ad66f)
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 23, 2018, 12:53:51 AM
So we agree to disagree who the real snake is.  It’s all good.  If I had an athlete primed to play in the big, there is only one coach I wouldn’t allow him to play for.  Reason being, one of my biggest teachings is the - no whining, no excuses, and be humble.  Harbaugh fails all three consistently.  But to you that is just weird I guess.  No harm no foul.
Not sure I follow.
Harbaugh was never one billed as having character issues. The guy grates on people and I'd bet good money he's on the autistic spectrum- but no one has ever accused him of being a snake. Meyer? There's a mountain of evidence that guy is a snake. Great football coach though.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on October 23, 2018, 10:08:49 AM
Pretty sure Harbaugh has been a snake and a liar, too.  Ask Erik Swenson.  Also Harbaugh has been arrested multiple times.  If he coached under Urban then Urban would get flak for hiring him.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2018, 10:29:55 AM
Pretty sure Harbaugh has been a snake and a liar, too.  Ask Erik Swenson.  Also Harbaugh has been arrested multiple times.  If he coached under Urban then Urban would get flak for hiring him.
My interest here isn't in this womp-womp crap fight about the morals of Meyer v. Harbaugh v. Dantonio, just in accuracy about the Swenson thing. 

Erik was explicitly told he needed to work out in front of the staff to keep his offer. This happened the summer before he was to sign. He blew the coaches off and months later had his offer rescinded as promised. That wasn't a story of lying. It was a story of Harbaugh woefully mismanaging a kid and his expectations. Put another way, it was an honest mistake that was also unacceptable in that things like this can't be allowed to happen.

(I.E., Harbaugh made the bad mistake [a mistake of style and timing] but also told the truth when he said come work out now or risk losing your offer.)
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on October 23, 2018, 10:43:45 AM
We all have opinions, but I have no problem calling a coach a liar if he knows a kid thinks he has a scholarship offer when he doesn't.  So I have no problem calling Harbaugh a liar for that.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 23, 2018, 10:44:20 AM
Pretty sure Harbaugh has been a snake and a liar, too.  Ask Erik Swenson.  Also Harbaugh has been arrested multiple times.  If he coached under Urban then Urban would get flak for hiring him.
Or once. 15 years ago with a .09 OVI. From which he called a team meeting and met with administration the next day and apologized for his mistakes. Facts are hard to come by, I guess. A good lesson for Urban on personal accountability actually
Love how a Michigan / Michigan State game thread has turned into Ohio State fans whining about Jim Harbaugh whining. Don’t let your kids play for a complainer, but definitely send them to a staff that includes Meyer, Schiano, Zach Smith, and Wilson. Ohh, the skeletons. Righteous indignation!!
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on October 23, 2018, 10:49:31 AM
Or once. 15 years ago with a .09 OVI. From which he called a team meeting and met with administration the next day and apologized for his mistakes. Facts are hard to come by, I guess. A good lesson for Urban on personal accountability actually
Love how a Michigan / Michigan State game thread has turned into Ohio State fans whining about Jim Harbaugh whining. Don’t let your kids play for a complainer, but definitely send them to a staff that includes Meyer, Schiano, Zach Smith, and Wilson. Ohh, the skeletons. Righteous indignation!!
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1988-05-31-8801040010-story.html
BEARS` HARBAUGH IS ARRESTED ON DISORDERLY CONDUCT CHARGE
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2018, 11:18:14 AM
We all have opinions, but I have no problem calling a coach a liar if he knows a kid thinks he has a scholarship offer when he doesn't.  So I have no problem calling Harbaugh a liar for that.
I try to judge behaviors as themselves rather than judge people for their behaviors. So whereas I believe in lies, I don't have any use for blanketly calling a person a liar/smelly/failure/success. I only have use for specifically pointing out the times they lied/smelled/failed/succeeded. 

And (aside from the benefit of limiting my judginess) here is another situation where the distinction seems to matter. You're noticing  that Swenson was told that he had to do X to get Y, didn't do X (work out in front of coaches), lost Y (his scholarship), and are effectively responding that "this thing that wasn't a lie feels like the sort of crummy thing liars would do."
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: FearlessF on October 23, 2018, 11:20:10 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1988-05-31-8801040010-story.html
BEARS` HARBAUGH IS ARRESTED ON DISORDERLY CONDUCT CHARGE
oooh, that's a huge crime
same with drunken driving with no damage or victim, imo
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2018, 11:24:08 AM
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1988-05-31-8801040010-story.html
BEARS` HARBAUGH IS ARRESTED ON DISORDERLY CONDUCT CHARGE
For sure, DUI is pretty terrible. Not irredeemable, and I'm glad he's turned it around, but wreckless/dangerous. 
It'd be good if fanbases could consistently say that whether it's people on their side or the "other" side that have the DUI.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Honestbuckeye on October 23, 2018, 11:24:47 AM
Or once. 15 years ago with a .09 OVI. From which he called a team meeting and met with administration the next day and apologized for his mistakes. Facts are hard to come by, I guess. A good lesson for Urban on personal accountability actually
Love how a Michigan / Michigan State game thread has turned into Ohio State fans whining about Jim Harbaugh whining. Don’t let your kids play for a complainer, but definitely send them to a staff that includes Meyer, Schiano, Zach Smith, and Wilson. Ohh, the skeletons. Righteous indignation!!
It was a thread about Harbaugh and Dantonio. Who turned it into an OSU thread? YOU!!
 Talk about righteous indignation LMAO and not having your facts correct !!
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on October 23, 2018, 11:26:50 AM
I try to judge behaviors as themselves rather than judge people for their behaviors. So whereas I believe in lies, I don't have any use for blanketly calling a person a liar/smelly/failure/success. I only have use for specifically pointing out the times they lied/smelled/failed/succeeded.

And (aside from the benefit of limiting my judginess) here is another situation where the distinction seems to matter. You're noticing  that Swenson was told that he had to do X to get Y, didn't do X (work out in front of coaches), lost Y (his scholarship), and are effectively responding that "this thing that wasn't a lie feels like the sort of crummy thing liars would do."
No, I'm saying that the coaching staff, with Harbaugh's approval, never told him he was losing his offer up until they squeezed him out.  I think that is lying.  They didn't tell him he would lose his offer if he didn't show up to camp.  It is also extremely obvious that he thought he was in the class and wasn't losing his spot.  The coaching staff felt comfortable going along with that until they wanted other players.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on October 23, 2018, 11:28:06 AM
oooh, that's a huge crime
same with drunken driving with no damage or victim, imo
It is not a huge crime - my point was that Urban would get a lot of heat for having a coach on his staff who has been arrested multiple times. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: FearlessF on October 23, 2018, 11:33:46 AM
Urban only gets that heat when things come to light

until then Urban just keeps on keeping on
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2018, 11:34:18 AM
No, I'm saying that the coaching staff, with Harbaugh's approval, never told him he was losing his offer up until they squeezed him out.  I think that is lying.  They didn't tell him he would lose his offer if he didn't show up to camp.  It is also extremely obvious that he thought he was in the class and wasn't losing his spot.  The coaching staff felt comfortable going along with that until they wanted other players.
Ah, then you are just mistaken. Prior to the summer camps Michigan hosted 6+ months before signing day, they told Erik he had committed to the last staff but needed to work out for the new staff or that his scholarship could be taken at any time. From there, the situation was mismanaged by both sides. Harbaugh made bad mistakes of style and timing (should have pulled the trigger a month sooner). But his original warning stood as precisely true and delivered well in advance.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on October 23, 2018, 11:36:06 AM
Ah, then you are just mistaken. Prior to the summer camps Michigan hosted 6+ months before signing day, they told Erik he had to work out or that his scholarship could be taken at any time. From there, the situation was mismanaged by both sides. Harbaugh made bad mistakes of style and timing (should have pulled the trigger a month sooner). But his original warning stood as precisely true and delivered well in advance.
Harbaugh himself doesn't give that version of events.
https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/news/harbaugh-tells-his-side-of-story-in-erik-swenson-saga/
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2018, 11:41:43 AM
I just read it. His story and mine are identical, except he shares more details. Would you benefit if I copy/paste the sections where Harbaugh retells how he asked Erik to attend multiple camps so that Erik (a Hoke commit) could be evaluated by Harbaugh's staff and Erik multiply declined?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: SuperMario on October 23, 2018, 11:52:52 AM
Like I said earlier, Michigan is clearly fielding a good football team again. If Harbaugh is the ONLY coach in the Big Ten you wouldn't let an athlete play for, then you have questionable judgment of character at best. 

I'm good with a guy that passes along the message of his mentor "when you guys come back 15, 20, years from now and we know what kind of men you are, what kind of husbands you’ve become, what kind of fathers you are, then we’ll now how good this football team is.”

I see Harbaugh taking his team to Rome and trip trying to shape who they are as people as much as he's trying to shape them as athletes. That's the one guy you wouldn't want someone to play for? Really? 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on October 23, 2018, 11:59:16 AM
I just read it. His story and mine are identical, except he shares more details. Would you benefit if I copy/paste the sections where Harbaugh retells how he asked Erik to attend multiple camps so that Erik (a Hoke commit) could be evaluated by Harbaugh's staff and Erik multiply declined?
I don't think that is necessary.  You said the staff told him if he didn't come to camps he could lose his offer.  It doesn't appear they told him that until just before pulling his offer, based on Harbaugh's own words.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on October 23, 2018, 12:01:49 PM
Like I said earlier, Michigan is clearly fielding a good football team again. If Harbaugh is the ONLY coach in the Big Ten you wouldn't let an athlete play for, then you have questionable judgment of character at best.

I'm good with a guy that passes along the message of his mentor "when you guys come back 15, 20, years from now and we know what kind of men you are, what kind of husbands you’ve become, what kind of fathers you are, then we’ll now how good this football team is.”

I see Harbaugh taking his team to Rome and trip trying to shape who they are as people as much as he's trying to shape them as athletes. That's the one guy you wouldn't want someone to play for? Really?
I don't have any major problems with him.  At the end of the day, coaches spend 99% of their energy on winning football games, and it's all this other stuff that they don't care about that gets thrown around.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2018, 12:10:22 PM
I don't think that is necessary.  You said the staff told him if he didn't come to camps he could lose his offer.  It doesn't appear they told him that until just before pulling his offer, based on Harbaugh's own words.
That was your take-away? It would have struck me as unnecessarily inflammatory for him to say that explicitly to a reporter ("and as soon as he declined to come to camp for us for the second time, he put himself in the bucket where he could lose his offer, at any time, just like we said"). All that mattered is that he said it to Swenson.

Meanwhile, even without that part in this article, Swenson comes across as multiply insubordinate. Even if we trust the "pretty please" tone in the article (I seriously doubt it was that nice), being asked to pretty please camp in Ann Arbor, then pretty please camp in Indianapolis, and then have an uncharacteristically loafish fall season despite being asked that he had better pretty please "turn it on" ... Swenson was playing with fire. 
Again, the mistakes of style and timing still fall to Harbaugh, but "not being clear months earlier, in the lead-up to summer camp season" wasn't one of those mistakes. Elsewhere, Swenson made his own bookshelf of mistakes. Therefore commenceth the foofaraw.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: SuperMario on October 23, 2018, 12:22:18 PM
I don't have any major problems with him.  At the end of the day, coaches spend 99% of their energy on winning football games, and it's all this other stuff that they don't care about that gets thrown around.
Wasn't directed at your. My only question is was Urban under the microscope prior to everything that happened with Zack Smith? He took a lot of heat IMO because of his smugness at his press conferences. He stands up and says the PC answer, I don't think it's that hot in the kitchen. 
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Reyd on October 23, 2018, 01:35:05 PM
Cherry picking complaint. Why is ND considered a rivalry and Penn State isn't when stating w/l records? Should UofM complain they(Penn State} are being treated like lil bros?
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 23, 2018, 01:48:59 PM
They actually aren't rivals in the traditional sense. It's not a longstanding contest and neither claims the other as one (PSU technically claims no rivals; that's one of the meanings of their "#unrivaled" line).

In the more in-the-moment sense, I suppose you could call anyone a rival so long as they consistently stand between you and a championship. That would grow Michigan's rival lost to include PSU and UW. Harbaugh is 2-1 versus each of those (with another PSU match fast approaching). 

That'd go for a tentative 6-8 record versus "rivals," which is still bad for Michigan In Maintenance Mode. But of course Michigan isn't yet in maintenance mode. And maybe 6-8 is exactly what you'd expect for a helmet in Rebuilding Mode.

Whether near or far, I'm really looking forward to the time Michigan next returns to maintenance mode.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Reyd on October 23, 2018, 07:42:39 PM
So it depends on where you drive the stake into the ground?  That was my point. Every opponent wants to rip the stake out of their logo and plant it in your logo. Competitive sports are what the name implies. My team beats on your team within the rules. We fans and writers will argue those rules until the cows come home. If that doesn't trip your palate then go watch the Hallmark channel.

The whines are free but we have to pay for the cheeses.

Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 23, 2018, 08:36:24 PM
I've always thought a rivalry is any game that means more than if you pared it down to just the tangible standings importance of the game
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 23, 2018, 09:27:26 PM
I've always thought a rivalry is any game that means more than if you pared it down to just the tangible standings importance of the game
That’s a good way of summarizing it. Rivalries can evolve too. Michigan / MN isn’t what it was in the 60’s & 70’s, even though it’s a cool trophy game with history. On the other end there are some newer forced rivalries with expansion that may not have gained the appropriate steam to meet the standard too.
Notre Dame - Michigan never had the real fire people make it out o be either. It’s non-conference, early in the season, and has been forced build-up. My disappointment isn’t the same as is with a loss to Michigan State or Ohio State.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Temp430 on October 25, 2018, 07:34:44 AM
Big Ten fines Sparty $10K.....

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/big-ten/2018/10/24/big-ten-fines-msu-10-k-reprimands-dantonio-harbaugh-bush/1756031002/ (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/big-ten/2018/10/24/big-ten-fines-msu-10-k-reprimands-dantonio-harbaugh-bush/1756031002/)
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 25, 2018, 07:36:08 AM
Big Ten fines Sparty $10K.....

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/big-ten/2018/10/24/big-ten-fines-msu-10-k-reprimands-dantonio-harbaugh-bush/1756031002/ (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/big-ten/2018/10/24/big-ten-fines-msu-10-k-reprimands-dantonio-harbaugh-bush/1756031002/)
And repremands Dantonio, Harbaugh and Bush for conduct.
Hopefully this is the end of this non story.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Anonymous Coward on October 25, 2018, 10:07:23 AM
And repremands Dantonio, Harbaugh and Bush for conduct.
Hopefully this is the end of this non story.
Yeah, yesterday the Big Ten office kind of ruined what was entirely fine rivalry stuff. It was also contradictory. How do you reprimand one team for what you've fined the other team for (and vice versa)? 

It felt to me like another "There are two personal fouls - One on each team ... They offset. Second down" situation.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: HailHailMSP on October 25, 2018, 01:31:44 PM
Sometimes the suit’s in the league office want to let everyone know they are there. That’s what this comes off as. At least it’s not the PAC 10 officiating scandal.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: FearlessF on October 25, 2018, 05:58:52 PM
sounds like Harbaugh cried to the league office and Dantonio got to write a check
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: Reyd on October 26, 2018, 01:10:07 AM
Miami game riot oct 14, 2006. These things are no big deal until they are.
Title: Re: #6 Michigan (5-0, 7-1) at #24 Michigan State (2-2, 4-3) Post Game
Post by: FearlessF on October 26, 2018, 10:52:45 AM
There could be a problem someday in the future in the B1G, but hopefully we don't have any program with issues like the 2006 and earlier Canes.

I don't think we do.