CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Kris60 on September 17, 2018, 12:23:55 PM
-
Heard Greg McElroy being pretty critical of UNT for doing that. Basically said it was bush league. I hadn’t really thought about it that way but I can see that POV, especially with all the focus on player safety.
I remember covering punts in HS and when you are running down the field, trying to fend off a blocker, and bodies are between you and the return man you can’t always see if a fair catch is signaled.
Was that a bush league play by UNT?
-
Play to you hear the whistle,coaches gotta pay attention to.The return man did a good job of holding the ball high but not high enough to be confused with a fair catch
-
Terrell Buckley (FSU) did this against Syracuse I remember in about '89 or '90. I don't remember his PR TD return being as uncontested as this deke by UNT though. Play to whistle.
-
Yeah, I get the play to the whistle argument too. But we’ve all also seen PR get obliterated on fair catches before the ref had an opportunity to blow the whistle because a cover guy just didn’t see him signal fair catch. And the announcers act outraged and the dude is basically made out to be a savage.
I played with a guy in high school who absolutely knocked a PR out cold on a play like that but legitimately didn’t see the fair catch signaled for. I think if a guy covering a punt is tied up with a blocker coming down the field or has his view obstructed then he will naturally pull up if he sees the returner field the ball and just stand there.
I think this is especially true given the era we are in now where sometimes just hard hits are being flagged. I think what UNT did was perfectly legal but it was also kinda weak sauce. I also think we might see a PR get beheaded this year because someone is unsure if a fair catch was called and doesn’t want to be duped like the Arky guys were.
-
first off, as a bama fan i love gmac. but as a media personality, he's at bit over the top on a lot of his takes. seems he's trying to be a bit of a contrarian oftentimes.
as for the play, you play until the whistle. arky had a dude standing right in front of him, literally asking why hasn't the whistle blown (was in artcile i read yesterday). at minimum, grab him and make the refs blow whistles again.
is it kinda bush league? yeah, it is. but so is wr pick plays, and linemen 3 yd downfield, and fake spikes, etc. they're cheap plays to take advantage of people not paying attention (be it players, refs, or coaches), but they're part of the game. gotta have your head in the game.
-
Good Post " at minimum, grab him and make the refs blow whistles again." - did not think of that
-
I didn't see this one so I don't know the exact situation but I think there should be a rule change to make it clear that if the returner takes any action that could reasonably confused for a fair catch then a fair catch is declared and the ball is spotted where the catch was made.
I do not remember who was playing but I saw a game a few years ago where the returner partially raised his hand, the coverage team pulled up, then the returner caught the ball and took off and the refs let the return stand. On the next punt if I were on the coverage team I think I would tackle him unless I was 10,000% certain that the ref blew the whistle. That could be dangerous!
-
first off, as a bama fan i love gmac. but as a media personality, he's at bit over the top on a lot of his takes. seems he's trying to be a bit of a contrarian oftentimes.
as for the play, you play until the whistle. arky had a dude standing right in front of him, literally asking why hasn't the whistle blown (was in artcile i read yesterday). at minimum, grab him and make the refs blow whistles again.
is it kinda bush league? yeah, it is. but so is wr pick plays, and linemen 3 yd downfield, and fake spikes, etc. they're cheap plays to take advantage of people not paying attention (be it players, refs, or coaches), but they're part of the game. gotta have your head in the game.
I think the difference between the fair catch and the other plays you listed is the fair catch is in place for player safety. Again, I totally see the POV of playing through the whistle but the fact that UNT took advantage of a player safety rule just seems kinda weak, IMO.
-
I didn't see this one so I don't know the exact situation but I think there should be a rule change to make it clear that if the returner takes any action that could reasonably confused for a fair catch then a fair catch is declared and the ball is spotted where the catch was made.
I do not remember who was playing but I saw a game a few years ago where the returner partially raised his hand, the coverage team pulled up, then the returner caught the ball and took off and the refs let the return stand. On the next punt if I were on the coverage team I think I would tackle him unless I was 10,000% certain that the ref blew the whistle. That could be dangerous!
It already exists.
-
I'm guessing we'll be seeing a rule change regarding this for the 2019 season. While technically within the rules, it was kind of a cheap move, and UNT would have won handily anyway.
-
Yeah, the way they whistle everything on defenders now, I don't like it. Hell, the coverage guy bumps into him incidentally, he's probably flagged for 15. If you are going to allow that, then "not hearing the whistle" should be a legitimate excuse to blow up a guy who does call for a fair catch.
Same reason I never found it "saavy" when a QB running towards the sidelines turns up field. If you want to take even borderline hits out of the game, sprinting at the sideline should count as much as giving yourself up as sliding does.
-
It's no more 'bush league' than paying a team a million bucks to come into your house and curb-stomp you. No whistle? Destroy him.
Those 4 Razorbacks standing around the guy wondering about the whistle are displaying why they're at Arkansas in the first place instead of somewhere better.
-
I didn't see this one so I don't know the exact situation but I think there should be a rule change to make it clear that if the returner takes any action that could reasonably confused for a fair catch then a fair catch is declared and the ball is spotted where the catch was made.
I do not remember who was playing but I saw a game a few years ago where the returner partially raised his hand, the coverage team pulled up, then the returner caught the ball and took off and the refs let the return stand. On the next punt if I were on the coverage team I think I would tackle him unless I was 10,000% certain that the ref blew the whistle. That could be dangerous!
A good back judge will move himself in front of the PR after they signal fair catch and the ball is secured, to prevent the KT members from attempting to hit the PR.
As for this play, if the KT member just grabs the guy, even if it was a fair catch, there will be no foul as the refs will determine that the KT member didn't see the fair catch but also didn't take advantage of the situation to justify attempted murder.
-
Ncaa considering make immediate rule on the fake
https://247sports.com/college/north-texas/Article/NCAA-North-Texas-Arkansas-touchdown-fake-fair-catch-punt-rule-change-122046089/ (https://247sports.com/college/north-texas/Article/NCAA-North-Texas-Arkansas-touchdown-fake-fair-catch-punt-rule-change-122046089/)
I’m not a fan of these reaction rules. But I do understand the safety of it.
-
I didn't see this one so I don't know the exact situation but I think there should be a rule change to make it clear that if the returner takes any action that could reasonably confused for a fair catch then a fair catch is declared and the ball is spotted where the catch was made.
I do not remember who was playing but I saw a game a few years ago where the returner partially raised his hand, the coverage team pulled up, then the returner caught the ball and took off and the refs let the return stand. On the next punt if I were on the coverage team I think I would tackle him unless I was 10,000% certain that the ref blew the whistle. That could be dangerous!
He didn’t make any move to look like a fair catch. He just stood there and caught the ball.
I agree on the waving hands rule, even if they’re just telling teammates to move. But that’s not what happened here. This one the pr took a calculated risk to not move at all and just stood there and caught it. Once he caught he he just started walking slowly upfield all while arky defenders were around him. Once past them he took off.
-
A good back judge will move himself in front of the PR after they signal fair catch and the ball is secured, to prevent the KT members from attempting to hit the PR.
As for this play, if the KT member just grabs the guy, even if it was a fair catch, there will be no foul as the refs will determine that the KT member didn't see the fair catch but also didn't take advantage of the situation to justify attempted murder.
Exactly. Same as players do on potential fumbles when it’s somewhat questionable they grab an opp that picks up ball just to make sure. They don’t just smash them though
-
Play to you hear the whistle,coaches gotta pay attention to.The return man did a good job of holding the ball high but not high enough to be confused with a fair catch
As a high school football official, when we hear someone, particularly a coach, say this, we quickly correct him. The whistle does not kill the play, the play is killed by rule. The whistle is only an acknowledgement that the play is over. In fact, the only time a whistle kills a play is an inadvertent whistle. I work as an Umpire and I rarely ever blow my whistle, more often than not I am saying "plays over, plays over" if it is done in the middle of the field. Playing to the whistle, leads to late hits. Players are the majority of the time quite aware when a play is over without the whistle.
I wish I could get this phrase completely out of the game.
-
I didn't see this one so I don't know the exact situation but I think there should be a rule change to make it clear that if the returner takes any action that could reasonably confused for a fair catch then a fair catch is declared and the ball is spotted where the catch was made.
I do not remember who was playing but I saw a game a few years ago where the returner partially raised his hand, the coverage team pulled up, then the returner caught the ball and took off and the refs let the return stand. On the next punt if I were on the coverage team I think I would tackle him unless I was 10,000% certain that the ref blew the whistle. That could be dangerous!
officials should have flagged him for an invalid fair catch signal. anything the resembles, but not a "legal" signal is a penalty.
-
just take the fair catch out of the game
if you touch the ball you get hit or tackled
if you don't want to get hit stay away from the ball
then there's no interpretation of waving or other signs
-
He didn’t make any move to look like a fair catch. He just stood there and caught the ball.
I agree on the waving hands rule, even if they’re just telling teammates to move. But that’s not what happened here. This one the pr took a calculated risk to not move at all and just stood there and caught it. Once he caught he he just started walking slowly upfield all while arky defenders were around him. Once past them he took off.
I watched it and he brings his left hand up twice. He doesn’t go above his shoulder and he doesn’t wave but he does raise his left hand twice. This was all carefully planned out. Even to the point of telling the officials about it beforehand, instructing him to run down the UNT sideline as to not encounter Arkansas players walking on and off the field, and making sure their players didn’t walk onto the field.
I think the hand motion was part of it, too. The extra hand motion I believe was to further place doubt in the Arkansas’ players minds as to whether a fair catch was called or not.
-
As a high school football official, when we hear someone, particularly a coach, say this, we quickly correct him. The whistle does not kill the play, the play is killed by rule. The whistle is only an acknowledgement that the play is over. In fact, the only time a whistle kills a play is an inadvertent whistle. I work as an Umpire and I rarely ever blow my whistle, more often than not I am saying "plays over, plays over" if it is done in the middle of the field. Playing to the whistle, leads to late hits. Players are the majority of the time quite aware when a play is over without the whistle.
I wish I could get this phrase completely out of the game.
Really good post.
-
As a high school football official, when we hear someone, particularly a coach, say this, we quickly correct him. The whistle does not kill the play, the play is killed by rule. The whistle is only an acknowledgement that the play is over. In fact, the only time a whistle kills a play is an inadvertent whistle. I work as an Umpire and I rarely ever blow my whistle, more often than not I am saying "plays over, plays over" if it is done in the middle of the field. Playing to the whistle, leads to late hits. Players are the majority of the time quite aware when a play is over without the whistle.
I wish I could get this phrase completely out of the game.
I agree completely. I worked as head linesman for years on our crew and corrected many coaches. In one game, the team on my sideline had a player that was very close to some late hits on a couple of plays. I warned the player and then told the coach that he may want to pull that player and have a talk with him. The coach responded with "we play till the whistle." I explained exactly what you posted and gave him a chance to correct his player before we (my crew) did. He chose not too. I was about 3 plays later that I got him for a late hit and the coach went ballistic saying the whistle hadn't blown, completely ignoring the conversation I had just had with him.
As to your actions as umpire, I wish you had been ours on a couple of occasions when our umpire decided he needed to blow his whistle. We threatened to take it away from him after his 2nd inadvertent.
-
This "whistle doesn't end the play" stuff is odd, in regards to late hits. For average HS players who tend to look at the ball carrier far too often, no matter what position they're playing, it's fine. But for players who's job doesn't involve the ball or ball-carrier, the whistle is all they have to know the play is over. They'd be guilty of an incredible number of late hits/carrying on otherwise.
-
If a QB slides the play is over. The whistle comes later.
-
100 years of football and we haven't evolved past the whistle?
can't an air horn be used?
-
Good Post " at minimum, grab him and make the refs blow whistles again." - did not think of that
This.
You don't "blow up" a player standing there, but if you don't hear a whistle, or see the fair catch, get yourself in the place to prevent shenanigans.
-
This "whistle doesn't end the play" stuff is odd, in regards to late hits. For average HS players who tend to look at the ball carrier far too often, no matter what position they're playing, it's fine. But for players who's job doesn't involve the ball or ball-carrier, the whistle is all they have to know the play is over. They'd be guilty of an incredible number of late hits/carrying on otherwise.
I think both are true. The rule ends the play for those who saw how the play ended and the whistle ends it for those who didn’t. If a guy is tackled I can’t jump on him on the ground even I beat the ref’s whistle. It’s still a penalty.
But if I’m blocking downfield and the ball carrier is tackled behind me I need the whistle blown to keep me from blowing up some DB.
-
I thought it clever, entertaining, and effective, so I am for it, but I'm sure it will get ruled out because of the potential for player injury in the future.
-
Arkansas will prolly lay someone out next week claiming they didn't here the whistle,see the signal but read it here
-
Not as bad as when UConn actually called for a fair catch, but the refs didn't notice, and then he returned it for a TD.
It was unreviewable. A tleast at the time.
They went on to win the game, the Big East, and played in a BCS Bowl Game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMf5DZOy3Mg
-
I appreciate these posts on whistles and end of play scenarios.
-
I've got a different take for a rule change: a punt returner who has secured the ball is not live until he makes a move to advance the ball (lateral moves count, too). Get rid of this signaling debate altogether, and remove the crushing hits on a player who is defenseless as he's trying to catch the ball. He's not live until he makes a move to advance the ball. That also clarifies for the defense that if he has made an attempt to advance the ball, he's live to hit, so it doesn't matter whether they've seen his fair catch signal as they are fighting off blocks down the field.
-
I appreciate these posts on whistles and end of play scenarios.
Yeah, it's a funny phrase. I coach and referee soccer, and I coach my players to "play to the whistle," but the reality is that most stoppages in soccer (out of bounds) don't involve a whistle so the phrase doesn't make a lot of sense.
Interesting to know that's true in football, too.
-
I've got a different take for a rule change: a punt returner who has secured the ball is not live until he makes a move to advance the ball (lateral moves count, too). Get rid of this signaling debate altogether, and remove the crushing hits on a player who is defenseless as he's trying to catch the ball. He's not live until he makes a move to advance the ball. That also clarifies for the defense that if he has made an attempt to advance the ball, he's live to hit, so it doesn't matter whether they've seen his fair catch signal as they are fighting off blocks down the field.
Yeah, I was thinking something along those same lines. If he doesn’t immediately make a “football move” (to borrow a term from the catch rule) then the play is dead.
-
The CFL doesn't have fair catches, but you have to give the guy a one yard radius to make the catch. If they don't catch it, the kicking team can recover the ball irrespective of whether or not it has been touched by the receiving team.
-
I like it
-
Yeah, I was thinking something along those same lines. If he doesn’t immediately make a “football move” (to borrow a term from the catch rule) then the play is dead.
I could see that getting dicey. Guy was just positioning himself better, and then gets blasted. Or team thinks guy was just re positioning, and then takes off. I just think something like this is similar to that "intent to deceive" or whatever UM got flagged for a couple years ago.
-
too many times the guy catching the punt is on the move, sometimes running forward
-
I'm not a football referee, but if the rule is he cannot be hit until after he has possession of the football, I think it would end the "blow ups" entirely. All defensive players would have to pull up before hitting the returner to make sure he actually has the ball, then makes a move. Even when caught on the run, this should work. We have targeting rules for defenseless receivers, why not punt returners?
Just spit-balling. I think it's workable--at least as workable as the current system--and safer.
-
but, they don't pull up. They try to time the hit exactly when the returner catches the ball
-
I'm not a football referee, but if the rule is he cannot be hit until after he has possession of the football, I think it would end the "blow ups" entirely. All defensive players would have to pull up before hitting the returner to make sure he actually has the ball, then makes a move. Even when caught on the run, this should work. We have targeting rules for defenseless receivers, why not punt returners?
Just spit-balling. I think it's workable--at least as workable as the current system--and safer.
there is a penalty for hitting the returner before they have possession of the ball, catch interference.
I've got a different take for a rule change: a punt returner who has secured the ball is not live until he makes a move to advance the ball (lateral moves count, too). Get rid of this signaling debate altogether, and remove the crushing hits on a player who is defenseless as he's trying to catch the ball. He's not live until he makes a move to advance the ball. That also clarifies for the defense that if he has made an attempt to advance the ball, he's live to hit, so it doesn't matter whether they've seen his fair catch signal as they are fighting off blocks down the field.
i like this, except as others have pointed out, how do you distinguish when a player is coming up to catch ball on run?
-
Watching that UConn play makes me think of a bigger rule change needed: they should not list what can be reviewed, but what specifically cannot be reviewed.
Everything should be reviewable if it hasn't already been thought of. There are so many random-ass, unpredictable things that happen in football - and the refs just shrug and say it's not reviewable. BS.
-
Yeah, the way they whistle everything on defenders now, I don't like it. Hell, the coverage guy bumps into him incidentally, he's probably flagged for 15. If you are going to allow that, then "not hearing the whistle" should be a legitimate excuse to blow up a guy who does call for a fair catch.
Same reason I never found it "saavy" when a QB running towards the sidelines turns up field. If you want to take even borderline hits out of the game, sprinting at the sideline should count as much as giving yourself up as sliding does.
Whattaya know, didn't even take that long.
Dak Prescott tripped on his own guy, so he wasn't down. He popped up quickly, but didn't run. No whistle. Lions defender tackled him...late hit was called. But if after three seconds he had taken off, I guess that's a heads up play?