CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big XII => Topic started by: CharleyHorse46 on August 07, 2018, 09:11:29 AM
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Are there any villains in life, history, literature, film or television who are so compelling compared to the hero that you find yourself rooting for, perhaps even against your better judgment or sense of morality?
I'll name a couple to prime the pump:
1. Ricardo Montalban as Kahn in "Star Trek: the Wrath of Kahn." So he was an actor I had previously only known as Mr. Roark on "Fantasy Island," and as the spokesman for Chrysler Cordobas, and he dominated that film and, indeed, the entire franchise. He tore it up. His quotes were brilliant, his delivery was beyond flawless and he was menacing and dominant. I've seen the movie a hundred times and I'll admit it. I want him to destroy Star Fleet.
2. Harrison Ford is likable and Indiana Jones was a refreshing franchise. But I think it could've been even better if they had not killed off Belloq. I won't go as far as to say I wanted him to prevail over Jones, but I will say his time as a nemesis was too short-lived. With his wit, agreeableness and selfishness above ethos, he set the bar for nemeses at a level that scarcely ever reached again. He was like Lawrence Jamieson and Dan Fielding rolled into one.
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Tony Soprano
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Tony Soprano
Good morning, Drew. How are you? How are the ones you love? I hope this day is beautiful and sunshiny for you and fills your heart with joy and your imagination with delight.
Would you please be so kind as to elaborate for the five or six of us in America who never watched the Sopranos?
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hmm, thought this was a Rolling Stones tune
Seems odd to me that some folks out there have sympathy for the devil and seem to actually worship the devil
very odd - I understand the dark side can have a pull, but really? The devil himself?
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I would certainly be happy to do so... As it was SOMETHING SHINY!!!!! and... well, I just hit 'post' and slinked away..
Tony Soprano, played by now deceased James Gondolfini, was a mid level lieutenant in a crime family from Jersey until his father passed just before the HBO series depicting it all began.. We meet Tony Soprano through his sessions with a shrink- and get to see the inner workings of a deeply disturbed person who demonstrates almost every negative characteristic of a sociopath... He is NOT a 'good fella', even using the filter of a deranged mafioso type... but we get entrapped in his antics as he loots his way through the series, robbing good hard working people, dealing with psychological disturbances, cheating on his wife, murdering his friends, carrying on through a strategic maze of demented tactics... and we're pulling for him at least 99% of the time, much to our own disappointment. he played that role to the bone.
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It is a Rolling Stones song, and not a bad one. But I think the expression was around long before it was a song title. Since 1667 probably when people started asking why John Milton made Satan so ambiguously likable and unlikable in "Paradise Lost."
I think some people are just contrary. Or disenfranchised. They want to be different. If everybody on the sidewalks in Las Vegas is keeping right, some wise guy will keep left just to be that way.
I've never seen a movie or a Twilight Zone episode where anybody ever got what they wanted from the devil. There was always hell to pay.
There was a song about a fiddler named Johnny but he was probably the exception to the rule.
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I would certainly be happy to do so... As it was SOMETHING SHINY!!!!! and... well, I just hit 'post' and slinked away..
Tony Soprano, played by now deceased James Gondolfini, was a mid level lieutenant in a crime family from Jersey until his father passed just before the HBO series depicting it all began.. We meet Tony Soprano through his sessions with a shrink- and get to see the inner workings of a deeply disturbed person who demonstrates almost every negative characteristic of a sociopath... He is NOT a 'good fella', even using the filter of a deranged mafioso type... but we get entrapped in his antics as he loots his way through the series, robbing good hard working people, dealing with psychological disturbances, cheating on his wife, murdering his friends, carrying on through a strategic maze of demented tactics... and we're pulling for him at least 99% of the time, much to our own disappointment. he played that role to the bone.
Thank you, Drew. Now I want to watch the show. Before I spend 10 minutes googling would anybody like to save me all that hard labor and tell me where I can find it? Hulu? Vudu? Netflix?
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One of my favorite bad guys is Bruce Dern
He is so bad ya got to like him
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It's not on anymore but I loved the TV show Heroes when it was running.
Zachary Quinto played Sylar who would sometimes kill people and steal their superpowers. Many of the people he stole powers from were already confused or burdened by their special abilities, so maybe he was doing them a favor by taking away their powers & giving them a chance at normalcy (for the ones he didn't kill). He was super intense and sneaky, and had a hard family life and was just trying to explore more options for his purpose. Too bad it was doing evil stuff, but I really liked his character and Sylar was one of the best characters on the show in general.
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some crazy folks even liked Barry Switzer and Bobby Stoops
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Jack Nicholson's "Joker" wiped the screen with Michael Keaton's "Batman". You really wanted the Joker to prevail.
It's not fair to call Hannibal Lecter the bad guy. He isn't good, but he's more of a pivot in the plot. He's wonderfully evil, though, "Oh, and senator...Love the suit!".
Everybody likes Darth Vader (until his backstory was wussified by Haden Christianson).
I'm personally a fan of Jack Skellington's nemesis, Oogie Boogie.
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Colonel Walter E. Kurtz, portrayed by Marlon Brando in Francis Ford Coppola's film, Apocalypse Now.
Don't think the audience is pulling for Kurtz, but there is obvious sympathy
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Of course, Magneto had a point.
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Thank you, Drew. Now I want to watch the show. Before I spend 10 minutes googling would anybody like to save me all that hard labor and tell me where I can find it? Hulu? Vudu? Netflix?
If you're an Amazon Prime member, Sopranos is available on Prime Video. Or HBO Now/HBO Go if you have a subscription to that.
A handy website for such things is www.justwatch.com/us You type in the name of a show and it will tell you what services, if any, can it be streamed on, and what online outlets let you buy it as well.
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A movie that wasn't all that great but which perfectly demonstrates what you're talking about is "Dracula 2000." Oddly, it came out in 1999, I think. There's the heroes, one is the young male protagonist, and I recall he's just a thorough wuss. I mean a totally whiny, wimpy, unlikable, pansy. The young woman protagonist was okay, but he was just annoying. I think it might have been Jonny Lee Miller, Sherlock Holmes from the highly mediocre CBS show "Elementary." Then when Dracula finally shows up, it's Gerard Butler, who I've liked in most things I've seen him in. I always root for Gerard Butler, even as Dracula. Even when he's killing people, he's just way more likable, and I remember it was the first time I ever saw a fantasy/horror movie and rooted for the bad guy. I wanted him to kill the young man and I hoped he turned everybody else into vampires. Then they gave him a cool ending which made me like him even more, though I won't give it away, in case you ever do see it. Although I really wouldn't waste my time on it. Butler as Dracula was the only cool thing about it, and that's when I was 20 years old, God only knows how much I'd think it a waste of time now.
"Justified" was a great, great TV show where I found it easy to root for a villain, Boyd Crowder. You never root against the protagonist, Raylan Givens--he's way too likable for that--but it's a clear device of the show to make you never truly root against the recurring antagonist. CH, if you didn't catch that while it was on, I think you'd really like it....it's available on Amazon Prime.
Maybe the most glaring recent example I've seen is the recently concluded FX series "The Americans" where the main characters/protagonists technically are the villains, from our perspective. If you've never seen it, it's about a couple who are Russian spies in the 80's, living in Washington D.C. posing as a typical American family. I found the show very unsettling in its first season, because they are clearly the main characters the show wants you to identify and sympathize with, but because of their views juxtaposed with my own views, it was nearly impossible to root for them. It created this cool turmoil that I think teh show means to evoke from the viewer. But that's constantly balanced against how likable they are and how you don't want bad things to happen to them personally, you just don't want them to achieve their goals. It was brilliant. By the second season, things settled down emotionally for me--you get more comfortable with rooting for people who's ultimate ends are at odds with your own--and you just relax into it. The show makes them that sympathetic, and it works that well. It's genius. Also available on Amazon Prime, for those who haven't watched it.
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<br />(https://thumb.ibb.co/h190MK/102854928_alligator.jpg) (https://ibb.co/h190MK)<br />
I haven't been around in ages, but I was checking the news and saw this picture of a recent grad taking pics with an alligator, then saw the TAMU logo on her graduate's scarf and thought, "I guess A&M has gone full SEC now." And that made me think of you guys. so yeah, I got sympathy for you devils.
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Of course, Magneto had a point.
I think Disney/Marvel did a great job with Thanos in Avengers: Infinity War.
But, although I understand his reasoning, I don't understand why, with infinite power, he didn't just snap his fingers and create enough food for everyone in the universe. Or, you know, double the number of inhabitable planets, or something. He really was just painfully stupid and simple-minded, when you think about it.
But I still liked him.
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And I much prefer Running With the Devil to Sympathy for the Devil, so I'll stick to that as my theme.
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Howdy PR, good to see you!
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Utee,
Isn't Thanos just basically a Dad character? I mean his plan is basically just to get rid of half the kids so he can enjoy a fishing trip and nice sunset, right? Yeah, I can get how that resonates as likeable villain.
Good to see you too. Gotta remember to drop by here more often.
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And I much prefer Running With the Devil to Sympathy for the Devil, so I'll stick to that as my theme.
song/group/guitar legends aside
running with the devil is much different than having sympathy for the lord of darkness
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A handy website for such things is www.justwatch.com/us You type in the name of a show and it will tell you what services, if any, can it be streamed on, and what online outlets let you buy it as well.
I think you just changed my life for the good, Amos.
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Utee,
Isn't Thanos just basically a Dad character? I mean his plan is basically just to get rid of half the kids so he can enjoy a fishing trip and nice sunset, right? Yeah, I can get how that resonates as likeable villain.
Good to see you too. Gotta remember to drop by here more often.
Yup, aside from the generations' worth of bloody murder even before he snapped his fingers, he's still just a dude that wants some peace and quiet in the universe. Who can blame him? This one planet is full of more than enough yahoos for my taste, I can't imagine an entire universe's-worth.
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Thought this was another thread about Urban Meyer.Title sounds about right
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why in the wide wide world of Sports did Urban bring that POS with him from Florida?
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I think you just changed my life for the good, Amos.
......again.
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why in the wide wide world of Sports did Urban bring that POS with him from Florida?
Because of Earl Bruce.
Now, can we please keep this stuff quarantined to the Urban Meyer Thread of Doom over in B1G-land? I've been avoiding that thread like the plague.
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Because of Earl Bruce.
just seems like a very lame reason
OK, OK, I'll cease and desist
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Everything we talk about here in Big XII land is about Ohio State and every post is just an allegory. We can't stop thinking about Ohio State we're obsessed.
So to make that illustration, I'm going to mention a few more noteworthy villains.
Hans Gruber in Die Hard - I can't say I liked him or rooted for him but he possessed this certain smug je ne sais quoi that made me delight in his suffering
Samuel L Jackson in just about anything by Quenton Tarrantino - I love Samuel L Jackson. I relate to Samuel L Jackson. I identify with Samuel L Jackson. When I see Samuel L Jackson in anything from a movie to a Citicard commercial a little child inside me jumps up and down and screams, "Hey! There's Samuel L Jackson." So when Quenton Tarrantino puts him in a role as a character with no redeeming values, I'm conflicted. I'm like "I can't believe he's such a hateful, abusive, demeaning, unrepentant jerk." And yet, I watch him with a grin on my face and I enjoy every line he utters. I don't root for him - especially when he's mean to Kerry Washington or Bridget Fonda, but I still find him utterly entertaining.
And Denzel in Training Day. Are you kidding me? Denzel is like Tom Hanks. He's a nice guy. What the heck was he doing in Training Day? Even in the final moments I kept thinking he was actually a good cop pretending to be a bad cop. Come on. It's Denzel! How could they do that to us?
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Speaking of Sam Jackson, he was also a fantastic, over-the-top villain in "Kingsman: The Secret Service." Not a Tarantino joint, but similar in some ways.
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Speaking of Sam Jackson, he was also a fantastic, over-the-top villain in "Kingsman: The Secret Service." Not a Tarantino joint, but similar in some ways.
I've heard other good things about that movie.
I'll have to look for it on Amos' snazzy life changing link.
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I'd recommend it, it was a lot of fun.
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I binged on the Sopranos while a member of my immediate family was experiencing a period of terrible health and in the hospital for a month, which I don't want to go into here. I find myself watching really weird and violent shows like Walking Dead and Lost and Sopranos when things are particularly worrisome in my life. Not sure of the psychology there, but it is what it is. Maybe it's my own inner Bengal tiger (if you've read Life of Pi) trying to cope. It's one of those shows that I'm glad I watched, and I'm also more than glad to never watch again.
Anyway, I never got to the point of actually liking Tony Soprano like Drew. I did feel for his family, who were caught up in his madness, and loved him even in spite of his many flaws. But he was completely deranged, in a somewhat charming way, but ultimately just deranged and completely loathsome in my book. I've later found out that his mental illness is something called "borderline" which has a heavy dose of narcissism in it but also manifests in violent mood swings and paranoia and a complete lack of empathy, and in the story his mother had it too, and probably passed it on to him via both nature and "nurture".
One thing though - the final episode of the Sopranos was full on genius. I won't spoil it for anyone like JCG who might end up watching it, but I'll just say that if you last through all the grotesque violence and madness of the earlier seasons, all six of them, make sure you stay until the end, and don't let anyone spoil it for you. It's one of the greatest endings in the history of television, if not the greatest. And listening to Journey (not a group I care much for, with the exception of Neal Schon's guitar playing, but they're everywhere like Musak, so it's unavoidable) will never be the same.
Oh, and last I looked it's on Amazon Prime.
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I'm just going to say it-- I didn't like The Sopranos. I tried watching it with my i s c & a aggie wife for about a half a season, and I really didn't like it.
I don't like that meth show either, don't remember its name but everyone raved about it. I watched a couple episodes and just turned it off.
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Breaking Bad. Same here. I watched maybe two shows, but it concerns a topic (cancer, not the drugs) that's too close to home. So, that was it for me.
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I don't even watch a couple episodes of some new show that people tell me is worth watching
because it's not
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I really can't get into plots/storylines with anti-heros as the main characters. That includes most mob shows, and shows about thieves and drug dealers and whatnot. I can't detach my judgment from them, so I can never empathize. In the rare cases when I find myself watching one of those, I will typically root for the mobster/criminal/thief to die a horrible, grisly death.
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Like Negan from the WD. He has a lot of appeal to some. One of my Texas in-laws (this is the wife of my sister-in-law's brother) thinks he's such a hunk that she's named her pickup truck Lucile. If you know the WD, you know what I mean, if you don't well, I won't be a spoiler.
Negan is really really bad news though. I'm more in the "die a grisly death" camp for that dude ...
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I've watched some of that show, again because the i s c & a aggie wife likes it. I don't find it all that compelling, but I do know who Negan is and I think he does an excellent job of making you hate him. I'm a big fan of the actor, Jeffrey Dean Morgan, he's quite effective.
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(https://thumb.ibb.co/dKGc6U/med_1486421452_00022.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dKGc6U)
Hot diggity dog!
It's the first episode of season 7 that cements him as one of the truly all-time bad hombres out there.
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Btw, if you put a GB helmet on him, and he's Aaron Rogers ...
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Maybe it's my own inner Bengal tiger (if you've read Life of Pi) trying to cope.
I knew it! Welcome aboard. It's okay to admit that we are your second favorite team. We're everybody's second favorite team, except for the people for whom we're their actual favorite team.
Haven't watched The Sopranos yet, but I know about the ending, too much time has gone by and too much has been said about it. Most people I know who watched it were really pissed off by it. I probably would've been too if I had that much time invested in a story.
I like a lot of shows on FX and AMC, many of the same ones utee94 does not like. I like some stuff on BBCA too. I really like Sherlock, and I wish they did more than 3 episodes every few years.
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Well sure, MDT, I mean... who DOESN'T like corndogs???
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And I've only named two shows I don't like. Sopranos and the meth one.
On AMC I absolutely loved Mad Men, that's one of the finest-crafted television pieces in the history of the medium.
I also really liked its little brother show, Halt and Catch Fire, which was (initially) about the PC revolution in Texas in the early 80s.
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My #2 son claims that the reasons cops in every store or restaurant we go into caress their weapons and watch me warily (they really do) is because I supposedly look (to him) like some guy in the Walking Dead or one of it spinoffs who carries a bat.
I wouldn’t know but I doubt I do. The people who people have said I look like over the years don’t even look like each other so clearly I don’t actually look like anybody.
As for cops they’ve been doing that to me all my life. Long before WD. I always assumed they do that to everybody until people with me started commenting on how strange it is.
Maybe I look like somebody on the Most Wanted list too.
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I knew it! Welcome aboard. It's okay to admit that we are your second favorite team. We're everybody's second favorite team, except for the people for whom we're their actual favorite team.
It's hard not to like tigers ... such powerful sleek and stealthy animals. Well, until they disembowel you and carry your meaty parts away for dinner anyway. At that point, they'd probably drop off my favorite list.
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I have housecat (another grandpet actually) but I am delighted to say he’s a good guy. Grateful, social, mellow.
You really have applaud the cats who are cool because... honestly.. most cats are kind of a-holes.
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My fiance has two cats and an Australian Shepherd. One cat is a Maine Coon, we call her "grandma" because she's 16 years old, a bit testy, doesn't give two shits what you think, and has a perpetual look on her face like the world she grew up in made so much more sense than all the ignorance the rest of us are up to these days.
The other cat is a Siamese, not the new weird looking kind but the classic breed look. He's a handsome, athletic devil. Unfortunately he's got several personality disorders that make him a complete dick. He's got some weird cat equivalent of Sundowner's Syndrome where at dusk he begins to get really weird and spastic for an hour or two. He darts around, either chasing or fleeing from ghosts, and generally stirring up trouble that he doesn't get into any other time. He also doesn't like doors. He stands at doors, meowing away like an inconsiderate prick if you're in the bedroom sleeping. If you get up and let him in, he'll sit at the door and meow to get out. He sits at the cabinet where the cat food is and meows like he's some third world, starved, deprived, mistreated creature, even if you just fed him 10 minutes ago. He can't be happy.
He also occasionally likes to pounce on the grandma cat and put her in--swear to God--a choke hold, at which point the Aussie--Champion of Household Chillness--will immediately step in and put a stop to his antics. If only I could train the dog to do that to him all the time, instead of only when he thinks grandma is in danger. Overall, the dog is a total bro dog. We are homies. I like him better than I like most people.
Shout-out to Erin, she knows what I'm talking about with the Aussie's.
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I have bombay cat Vita who thinks she's a dog, because she came into our home as a 2-mo old kitten and chummed up immediately with our 10 year old golden retriever, Bella. She's a precocious but very lovable little tyke and our golden went from a look of "WTF did you bring this little pest into the house for??" to mild tolerance (while our kitten played constantly with her ever moving fluffy golden retriever tail) to becoming out-and-out pals (sleeping together, but totally platonic) by the time our sweet Bella passed on to the great doggie beyond.
So, Bella's influence on Vita was profound. For example, Vita follows us wherever we go just like Bella did, comes running when I call her just like Bella would, and stays with us when we're sick, just like all our cats have done through the years. Another name we call Vita is "the nurse" ...
She kind of combines the best of both the cat and dog worlds, into one little adorable 8 pound package.
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Btw, if you put a GB helmet on him, and he's Aaron Rogers ...
well, Packers are evil
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Cats fit well into the Sympathy For the Devil topic, for me. CH is right, most cats are kind of a-holes. I'm also allergic to them, I can't be around them at all unless I stay loaded up on antihistamines. They shed everywhere, and unless you de-claw them, they ruin a lot of nice furniture, curtains, etc.
And god help me, I really like cats.
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I'm not a big fan of cats. When we first got married, my i s c & a aggie wife desperately wanted a cat. So we went to a recommended friend who did pet rescue and had a litter of kittens. And my i s c & a aggie wife decided she needed not one, but two kittens, because she didn't want to separate the brothers.
Good Lord what a shite show. One was a tabby-- I had no idea but now I do. Never again.
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I'm a dog person, but I don't need one living in my house
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Have 2 cats
One sleeps at the foot of our bed at night
If we dont go to bed by 10 PM that cat will come remind us its bed time
Im really a dog person but cats are so easy to take care of
and they will remind you if you forget to feed them or when its time to change the cat box