CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on July 14, 2018, 09:48:33 PM
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College only - this is not a slam dunk. At least it shouldn't be.
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If you watch SNL in the 80ies, this is a slam dunk.
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(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/37779795/heh-heh-you-said-weiner.jpg)
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I went with Butkus
Rimmington also a fine choice
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I went with Rimmington.... best center ever to play the game of CF
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The Butkus Award, instituted in 1985, is given annually to the top linebackers at the high school, collegiate and professional levels of football.
3 levels honor this guy for his efforts throughout his career
I think it might be a slam dunk
not saying the other guys are not deserving of greatness but .....
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I went with Rimmington.... best center ever to play the game of CF
I think that's fair, and he too has an award named for him. To me, Dick Butkus is in the conversation as "best ever" regardless of position. Rimington is not that.
Butkus could have played any position on the OL, FB, any position on the DL and any position along the LB front. He was so damn football-smart too.
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I guess that's the question for me.
I feel Rimmington was the best ever at his position. Of course by position it's center not o-line.
Rimmington would have also been a great guard, but wasn't suited for O-tackle
Was Butkus the best MLB ever? or better yet, best LB ever?
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Butkus is almost all reputation. I'm not saying he wasn't an all-time great, but we don't KNOW if he was. We don't have stats on him for tackles or forced fumbles or sacks. We have grainy footage and a bunch of guys saying he was intimidating. We have newspaper articles that built his reputation up.
I don't want to detract from how good he was, but we're lacking a big pile of evidence here. We just are. One must acknowledge that he was merely a pretty god or even average LB who played dirty. I'm not saying it's likely, but it's certainly possible.
What if he was a better center than a LB? We don't know that, either. There's so much we don't know - writers back then were all trying to be the next Grantland Rice, filling their columns with hyperbolic word salad, that Butkus and others benefitted from being built up in the minds of all the readers. It's as if Mickey Mantle was especially revered (as he is), but with no HR or batting average numbers.
All that being said, there's not exactly a ton of statistical evidence for a center in 1980, either, lol.
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Butkus is almost all reputation. I'm not saying he wasn't an all-time great, but we don't KNOW if he was. We don't have stats on him for tackles or forced fumbles or sacks. We have grainy footage and a bunch of guys saying he was intimidating. We have newspaper articles that built his reputation up.
I don't want to detract from how good he was, but we're lacking a big pile of evidence here. We just are. One must acknowledge that he was merely a pretty god or even average LB who played dirty. I'm not saying it's likely, but it's certainly possible.
What if he was a better center than a LB? We don't know that, either. There's so much we don't know - writers back then were all trying to be the next Grantland Rice, filling their columns with hyperbolic word salad, that Butkus and others benefitted from being built up in the minds of all the readers. It's as if Mickey Mantle was especially revered (as he is), but with no HR or batting average numbers.
All that being said, there's not exactly a ton of statistical evidence for a center in 1980, either, lol.
That's what it came down to for me. It's basically two guys, with positional trophies named after them, that I'm purely judging by reputation. It's not like I'm going to defend or argue against either choice. I have no basis for that. It's not like Butkus versus some guy we have more tangible evidence of.
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Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with voting on reputation when it's all we have. But Butkus (and maybe all the guys on this list) are lacking in the evidence department. And it's not disrespectful to say so. Butkus may very well have been the best MLB ever...but we just don't KNOW.
Those who are out there selling certainty, with just about anything, aren't to be trusted, lol.
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true, we have some old footage - both players film is very impressive
not that one player makes and offense or defense, but we do have offensive numbers for Nebraska in 1980, 81, and 82, and defensive numbers for Illinois (maybe not)
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...and one player on each side of the ball is 1/11 of that. Meh.
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College career[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dick_Butkus&action=edit§ion=2&editintro=Template:BLP_editintro)]
Butkus played center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_(American_football)) and linebacker from 1962 through 1964 at the University of Illinois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Illinois) for the Illinois Fighting Illini football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Fighting_Illini_football) team. In his first year on the varsity team, he was named to the 1962 All-Big Ten Conference football team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_All-Big_Ten_Conference_football_team) as the third-team center by the Associated Press (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press) (AP) and second-team center by United Press International (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Press_International) (UPI).[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-8)[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-9) In 1963 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Illinois_Fighting_Illini_football_team), Illinois compiled an 8–1–1 record and defeated Washington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Washington_Huskies_football_team) in the 1964 Rose Bowl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Rose_Bowl). Butkus was named the team's most valuable player for the season, and was awarded the Chicago Tribune Silver Football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tribune_Silver_Football) as the Big Ten's most valuable player.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-10) He was a unanimous choice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unanimous_All-Americans_in_college_football) as a center for the 1963 College Football All-America Team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_College_Football_All-America_Team), earning first-team honors from all seven major selectors.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-11)
As a senior in 1964 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Illinois_Fighting_Illini_football_team), Butkus was named the team's co-captain along with safety George Donnelly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Donnelly_(American_football)).[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-Liska-12) UPI deemed Butkus college football's Lineman of the Year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPI_College_Football_Lineman_of_the_Year) for 1964,[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-13) and he was named the player of the year by the American Football Coaches Association (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Football_Coaches_Association) and The Sporting News (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sporting_News).[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-14) For the second consecutive season he was deemed the Illini's most valuable player. He was chosen for the 1964 All-America team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_College_Football_All-America_Team) by five of the six major selectors. In a cover story for Sports Illustrated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_Illustrated) that season, sportswriter Dan Jenkins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Jenkins) remarked, "If every college football team had a linebacker like Dick Butkus of Illinois, all fullbacks soon would be three feet tall and sing soprano."[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-Rosenthal-15) Butkus also finished sixth in Heisman Trophy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisman_Trophy) balloting in 1963 and third in 1964, rare results both for a lineman and a defensive player.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-Britannica-16)
According to statistics kept by the university, he completed his college career with 374 tackles: 97 in 1962, 145 in 1963, and 132 in 1964.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-17)
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Apparently chumps do not wear #50.
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Dave Rimington
Center
1979-1982
Omaha, Neb.
1981 and 1982 Outland Trophy Winner
1982 Lombardi Award Winner
The only player ever to win the Outland Trophy in consecutive years (1981 and 1982), Dave Rimington is one of the most decorated offensive linemen in college football history.
The 6-foot-3, 290-pound center was a two-time first-team All-American in 1981 and 1982 and is one of just 13 Huskers to have his jersey retired. He was inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame in 1997, while his No. 50 jersey was retired by Nebraska in 1982.
A three-time first-team All-Big Eight choice from 1980 to 1982, Rimington was named the Big Eight Offensive Player of the Year in 1981, marking the only time in conference history that a lineman has earned the prestigious honor. During his career, the Omaha South grad helped the Huskers win back-to-back Big Eight titles in 1981 and 1982, as Nebraska led the nation in rushing during his senior season.
A four-year letterman and three-year starter, Rimington was named team captain and capped his senior season by winning the 1982 Lombardi Award. Also, a two-time first-team academic All-American, Rimington was honored by the NCAA as a Top-Five Student-Athlete and was selected as a National Football Foundation and College Football Hall of Fame Scholar-Athlete in 1982. He was also a three-time first-team academic All-Big Eight choice from 1980 to 1982. In 1999, he was selected to the Walter Camp All-Century team.
Most recently, Rimington became the first Nebraska student-athlete in history to be inducted into the CoSIDA Academic All-America Hall of Fame. Rimington claimed that distinguished honor in 2004.
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None of that mentions how good he was on defense.
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College career[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dick_Butkus&action=edit§ion=2&editintro=Template:BLP_editintro)]
Butkus played center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_(American_football)) and linebacker from 1962 through 1964 at the University of Illinois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Illinois) for the Illinois Fighting Illini football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Fighting_Illini_football) team. In his first year on the varsity team, he was named to the 1962 All-Big Ten Conference football team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_All-Big_Ten_Conference_football_team) as the third-team center by the Associated Press (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press) (AP) and second-team center by United Press International (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Press_International) (UPI).[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-8)[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-9) In 1963 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Illinois_Fighting_Illini_football_team), Illinois compiled an 8–1–1 record and defeated Washington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Washington_Huskies_football_team) in the 1964 Rose Bowl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Rose_Bowl). Butkus was named the team's most valuable player for the season, and was awarded the Chicago Tribune Silver Football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tribune_Silver_Football) as the Big Ten's most valuable player.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-10) He was a unanimous choice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unanimous_All-Americans_in_college_football) as a center for the 1963 College Football All-America Team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_College_Football_All-America_Team), earning first-team honors from all seven major selectors.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-11)
As a senior in 1964 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Illinois_Fighting_Illini_football_team), Butkus was named the team's co-captain along with safety George Donnelly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Donnelly_(American_football)).[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-Liska-12) UPI deemed Butkus college football's Lineman of the Year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPI_College_Football_Lineman_of_the_Year) for 1964,[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-13) and he was named the player of the year by the American Football Coaches Association (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Football_Coaches_Association) and The Sporting News (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sporting_News).[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-14) For the second consecutive season he was deemed the Illini's most valuable player. He was chosen for the 1964 All-America team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_College_Football_All-America_Team) by five of the six major selectors. In a cover story for Sports Illustrated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_Illustrated) that season, sportswriter Dan Jenkins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Jenkins) remarked, "If every college football team had a linebacker like Dick Butkus of Illinois, all fullbacks soon would be three feet tall and sing soprano."[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-Rosenthal-15) Butkus also finished sixth in Heisman Trophy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisman_Trophy) balloting in 1963 and third in 1964, rare results both for a lineman and a defensive player.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-Britannica-16)
According to statistics kept by the university, he completed his college career with 374 tackles: 97 in 1962, 145 in 1963, and 132 in 1964.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-17)
I saw this, too. It has both good and the bad I mentioned. The tackles numbers are nice to have. He was thought highly of by his teammates.
I think what it was mostly is that Illinois stunk in '61. They were bad in '62 - on offense and defense, when Butkus first played. Then the next year they go to the Rose Bowl. So we have a team that went from winless to awful to Rose Bowl, so we credit the best player by eye test.
Nothing wrong with that.
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None of that mentions how good he was on defense.
didn't have the opportunity - different era
just as Butkus didn't have the opportunity to win the Lombardi - established in 1970
Butkus did have a shot at the Outland - didn't win one
Rimmington has 2
and you know I voted Butkus
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Well Dick never won the Butkus, and Dave never claimed the Rimington award, so there's that.
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if playing both sides of the ball is a key differentiator, then players from the 1960's and earlier should win more of these votes when that was more common.
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I'm visiting a friend in Vegas, I'll be home tomorrow. Will try to get this going again.