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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: ELA on July 12, 2018, 09:01:03 AM

Title: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: ELA on July 12, 2018, 09:01:03 AM
SYSTEMIC CHANGES
End of TV monopoly
Recruiting coverage
Early NFL Draft entry
SYSTEM RULE CHANGES
Academic ineligibility
CFP
Conference championship games
GAME RULE CHANGES
OT
Narrower hashmarks
Tearaway jerseys banned
GAME PLAY CHANGES
Wishbone
SEC integration
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Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: ELA on July 12, 2018, 09:03:31 AM
I'll vote for the one that at least sort of helps even the playing field.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: utee94 on July 12, 2018, 09:44:50 AM
I like conference networks (and single-school networks :) ) because they bring more sports to my television.

I dislike the resulting realignment moves that are made solely for the money-grab at television revenue.  That has harmed the sport severely over the last decade.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: ELA on July 12, 2018, 09:47:18 AM
I like conference networks (and single-school networks :) ) because they bring more sports to my television.

I dislike the resulting realignment moves that are made solely for the money-grab at television revenue.  That has harmed the sport severely over the last decade.
On one hand yes, but I don't know how much of that is due to the conference networks.  In fact, had conference networks been there earlier, I think we would have seen less realignment, jockeying for space in the conferences with the best national tv contracts.

Hell, the Big XII may only still exist because of the LHN
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: FearlessF on July 12, 2018, 11:15:40 AM
I like conference networks
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: utee94 on July 12, 2018, 01:02:00 PM
On one hand yes, but I don't know how much of that is due to the conference networks.  In fact, had conference networks been there earlier, I think we would have seen less realignment, jockeying for space in the conferences with the best national tv contracts.

Hell, the Big XII may only still exist because of the LHN
The combination of the conference networks and the cable subscriber model drove the B1G's desire for Rutgers and Maryland.  And it drove the SEC's desire for Texas A&M and Missouri.  In those cases, conference networks are the direct cause of the realignment activity that followed.

Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: ELA on July 12, 2018, 01:04:19 PM
The combination of the conference networks and the cable subscriber model drove the B1G's desire for Rutgers and Maryland.  And it drove the SEC's desire for Texas A&M and Missouri.  In those cases, conference networks are the direct cause of the realignment activity that followed.


I think they certainly drove which schools were targeted.  But I think had all conferences had networks earlier, you wouldn't have seen the same type of shuffle.  The Big Ten and then the SEC got the jump on everyone there.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: utee94 on July 12, 2018, 01:08:51 PM
I think they certainly drove which schools were targeted.  But I think had all conferences had networks earlier, you wouldn't have seen the same type of shuffle.  The Big Ten and then the SEC got the jump on everyone there.
You're speculating, when all we know for certain is what actually happened.  I directly blame the conference networks and the money-grubbing conference executives for the choices that have ruined many things I liked about the sport.
But I still voted for it over the facilities arms race, because while conference (and individual school) networks have brought more content to the fans, the facilities arms race has done nothing but force the cost of attending live events to skyrocket.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 12, 2018, 01:22:14 PM
On one hand yes, but I don't know how much of that is due to the conference networks.  In fact, had conference networks been there earlier, I think we would have seen less realignment, jockeying for space in the conferences with the best national tv contracts.

Hell, the Big XII may only still exist because of the LHN
That is for sure speculation. It could also be speculated that the Big 12 would exist as it did in 2010 if it had a full conference network, and no LHN.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: FearlessF on July 12, 2018, 02:26:10 PM
TV revenue is TV revenue

regardless of who owns the network

the grabbing of high demand content to drive up revenue was going to happen regardless what network the conference is negotiating with for a new contract
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 12, 2018, 02:34:28 PM
If Nebraska ever tried to get its own network, the presidents would see to it that they were booted from the partnership known as the Big Ten.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: FearlessF on July 12, 2018, 02:56:53 PM
true, but what if the Buckeyes or the Wolverines wanted their own network?
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 12, 2018, 03:00:39 PM
Same thing. No school is greater than the whole. It works.

Do M and O get some advantages (as in TV coverage and ass kissing from Big Jim)?? Sure they do. But at the table of 14, they have no more of a vote than 1/14.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: utee94 on July 12, 2018, 08:31:43 PM
TV revenue is TV revenue

regardless of who owns the network

the grabbing of high demand content to drive up revenue was going to happen regardless what network the conference is negotiating with for a new contract
The "in-footprint" cable subscriber model changed the calculus significantly.  Some of the B1G fans on this very site (and on this very thread) are some of the biggest opponents to what happened with Maryland and Rutgers.  My point is obvious, self-evident, substantiated, and vindicated by several long-time B1G fans around here.
Conference networks were directly responsible for many of the very bad things happening in college football in the past decade.  Anyone that's going to argue against me on that is... well... delusional, I guess.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: utee94 on July 12, 2018, 08:33:08 PM
If Nebraska ever tried to get its own network, the presidents would see to it that they were booted from the partnership known as the Big Ten.
Nebraska was well on its way to having its own network-- well ahead of Texas-- before the B1G announced expansion and changed everything.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: FearlessF on July 12, 2018, 09:19:37 PM
The "in-footprint" cable subscriber model changed the calculus significantly.  Some of the B1G fans on this very site (and on this very thread) are some of the biggest opponents to what happened with Maryland and Rutgers.  My point is obvious, self-evident, substantiated, and vindicated by several long-time B1G fans around here.
Conference networks were directly responsible for many of the very bad things happening in college football in the past decade.  Anyone that's going to argue against me on that is... well... delusional, I guess.
I agree the BTN wanted the eastern schools for market share.
What I'm saying is that if the BTN didn't exist, the Big Ten may have added Maryland and Rutgers to sweeten the negotiations with ABC/ESPN or any other network bidding on the content
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: utee94 on July 12, 2018, 09:33:02 PM
I agree the BTN wanted the eastern schools for market share.
What I'm saying is that if the BTN didn't exist, the Big Ten may have added Maryland and Rutgers to sweeten the negotiations with ABC/ESPN or any other network bidding on the content
Without the in-footprint cable subscriber model, Maryland and Rutgers don't move the needle.  At all.
The only options to sweeten the deal for Tier 1 media partners, would be big names.  Nobody turns on a television set to see a B1G team play Rutgers, not even if it's Michigan or Ohio State.
That's why Nebraska was a good add for national marketability.  But Maryland and Rutgers were terrible adds that dilute the product and further diminish former regional rivalries.  Their sole value was in-footprint cable subscriber pressure on the carriers.  Which is absolute crap and a severe blow to the sport of college football.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: FearlessF on July 12, 2018, 09:46:48 PM
again I agree

maybe it wouldn't have been Maryland and Rutgers, but the Big Ten would be looking to add high quality content such as Nebraska to enhance their TV contracts - yes a bit different from the BTN with the cable TV subscription model, but it would have caused realignment and additions
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: TyphonInc on July 13, 2018, 02:25:14 AM
Without the in-footprint cable subscriber model, Maryland and Rutgers don't move the needle.  At all.
The only options to sweeten the deal for Tier 1 media partners, would be big names.  Nobody turns on a television set to see a B1G team play Rutgers, not even if it's Michigan or Ohio State.
That's why Nebraska was a good add for national marketability.  But Maryland and Rutgers were terrible adds that dilute the product and further diminish former regional rivalries.  Their sole value was in-footprint cable subscriber pressure on the carriers.  Which is absolute crap and a severe blow to the sport of college football.
Don't lump Maryland in with Rutgers. Rutgers was a pure NYC Media Grab.
Maryland strokes all the right places (State flagship university, top research university, well rounded in numerous sports, continuous state, expands natural footprint, etc.) all except for National Football property.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 13, 2018, 06:42:52 AM
Nebraska was well on its way to having its own network-- well ahead of Texas-- before the B1G announced expansion and changed everything.
Had they been in the Big Ten and well on its way to having its own network, they'd have been looking for a conference. Just sayin'. 
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: utee94 on July 13, 2018, 07:55:13 AM
Had they been in the Big Ten and well on its way to having its own network, they'd have been looking for a conference. Just sayin'.
Obviously, because the B1G already had a conference network at that point.
However, prior to that, individual schools negotiated their Tier3 rights separately.  And in the case of radio and branding rights, they still do. Ohio State's radio and branding deal with IMG pays them far more than whatever Illinois has negotiated, and that revenue is not shared with the conference.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Entropy on July 13, 2018, 08:12:03 AM
Texas killed the big12
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Entropy on July 13, 2018, 08:14:22 AM
If Nebraska ever tried to get its own network, the presidents would see to it that they were booted from the partnership known as the Big Ten.
and it should be if they did that...
UNL would have had the 3rd or 4th best network in the big12 if everyone went their own way.  But the reality, pooling together is worth more to everyone.   Or at least that's how I see it.  
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: utee94 on July 13, 2018, 09:00:53 AM
Texas killed the big12
LMDGMFSBAO

Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 13, 2018, 09:04:01 AM
Texas killed the big12
This I don't believe.
What killed the Big 12 was all the schools (that could) trying to do what was best for themselves without regard for the others. Be it TV, movement, whatever.
A&M was trying to get to the SEC. Mizzou to the Big Ten. Texas to the Big Ten even before the XII happened. 
Had they all put the same energy into the league (partnership) they were in, it might still be what it was. Instead, we have what we have.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Entropy on July 13, 2018, 09:08:14 AM
Texas is the Donald Trump of college football.  You couldn't trust them so you start looking for other options.  The conference was dysfunctional as a result.   Everything seem ended up be drama.   If they had Michigan or OSU's attitude, the 12 never falls apart.   But it was about them...   and everyone started looking for exits as quickly as possible so they wouldn't be stuck without.   Perhaps they over reacted... up to debate, but Texas killed the Big12
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 13, 2018, 09:23:17 AM
I'm not going down that rathole.

Perhaps if the Big 8 schools weren't greedy to add Texas and A&M to the conference when the SWC fell apart, that would still be around too. Or had Arky never left the SWC for greener pastures. Or had the Eastern Indies listened to JoePa about starting a conference, the Big Ten would still be 10.

Or. 

Or.

It all starts somewhere. Cause and effect.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Entropy on July 13, 2018, 10:15:30 AM
or it's texas.... :)
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: TyphonInc on July 13, 2018, 10:31:11 AM
This I don't believe.
What killed the Big 12 was all the schools (that could) trying to do what was best for themselves without regard for the others. Be it TV, movement, whatever.
A&M was trying to get to the SEC. Mizzou to the Big Ten. Texas to the Big Ten even before the XII happened.
Had they all put the same energy into the league (partnership) they were in, it might still be what it was. Instead, we have what we have.
+1, Texas just happened to be the most successful at being greedy.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Hoss on July 13, 2018, 10:50:23 AM
Well, I suppose if by "greedy" you mean acting to ensure their universities didn't get left behind in what would could be a non-P5 conference, then I guess Colorado and Nebraska are guilty as charged. ATM had issues with the LHN that lead to bailing out, but I suppose that could be interpreted as them being greedy as well. Somehow. 

Missou has wanted to bolt since forever and would have no matter what else occurred, but they were replaceable. 

Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: FearlessF on July 13, 2018, 11:01:19 AM
Texas killed the big12
laughing OL that this simple post was edited
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 13, 2018, 12:01:36 PM
Missou has wanted to bolt since forever and would have no matter what else occurred, but they were replaceable.
The biggest problem the Big 12 has is that nobody is replaceable...
...because there's nobody to replace them with.
Nobody is going to leave the SEC or B1G, or PAC, for the B12. The SEC and B1G are huge moneymaking conferences. The PAC needs to figure out its money situation, but it's a stable conference and the AZ schools [the only schools for which it makes any geographic sense absent CO/UT] are not likely to leave the PAC for the B12.
Unless the ACC gets decimated and you have multiple schools looking for a home, nobody in the ACC is going to voluntarily leave the ACC for anything except the B1G or SEC. They're not going to catch the falling knife by trying to revive the B12. 

So who is the B12 going to take? CSU? Boise State? Try to find a way to shoehorn BYU in? 
Nobody they want is trying to join.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Entropy on July 13, 2018, 12:03:04 PM
laughing OL that this simple post was edited
I wrote more, but wanted to be "nice" today.  =)
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Entropy on July 13, 2018, 12:03:59 PM
The biggest problem the Big 12 has is that nobody is replaceable...
...because there's nobody to replace them with.
Nobody is going to leave the SEC or B1G, or PAC, for the B12. The SEC and B1G are huge moneymaking conferences. The PAC needs to figure out its money situation, but it's a stable conference and the AZ schools [the only schools for which it makes any geographic sense absent CO/UT] are not likely to leave the PAC for the B12.
Unless the ACC gets decimated and you have multiple schools looking for a home, nobody in the ACC is going to voluntarily leave the ACC for anything except the B1G or SEC. They're not going to catch the falling knife by trying to revive the B12.

So who is the B12 going to take? CSU? Boise State? Try to find a way to shoehorn BYU in?
Nobody they want is trying to join.

why join a conference that would break up at the snap of Texas' fingers..
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Hoss on July 13, 2018, 02:08:09 PM
The biggest problem the Big 12 has is that nobody is replaceable...
...because there's nobody to replace them with.

Nobody they want is trying to join.
Today, I might agree. In 2010 when the league still had Nebraska, ATM and Colorado in the fold, Missou was replaceable. It would have cost them some points in the St Louis TV market, but maybe you make that up with a strategic pick from outside the P5. That is maybe less a statement about the attraction of the Big 12 than one about the value of Missou, but the end result is the same. 
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 13, 2018, 02:14:13 PM
Had everyone stayed except Mizzou, assuming they finally got what they wanted (into the B1G), I think Arky may have considered moving back into the fold with its old SWC mates.

That's about it though. If not, then perhaps Utah would have been a good add.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Hoss on July 13, 2018, 02:35:19 PM
It would have been TCU. Or SMU. Or UTEP. Or Austin Senior High School, before Arkansas or Utah. 
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: utee94 on July 13, 2018, 04:45:14 PM
Some of you are trolling.

The rest are complete idiots.

That's about all that needs to be said here.
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Hoss on July 13, 2018, 05:38:26 PM
Fake news!
Title: Re: 2018 OT Tourney (1st Round) - Conference Networks vs. Facilities Arms Race
Post by: Anonymous Coward on July 13, 2018, 05:56:28 PM
I'll vote for the one that at least sort of helps even the playing field.
Don't each of these somewhat accomplish that?
For the most part, the networks have evenly fattened the pockets of conference mates. And we seem so far removed from the facilities arms race heyday (which P5 school doesn't have 2-4 shiny and massive buildings central to football these days?) that the old boys are simply tidying up what they already had (paying for fancier new versions to replace the fanciness that had become slightly out of date) while the new money is catching up in a big way (replacing dinginess with new-age fanciness).
There's no building a helmet can construct these days to "change the game" versus other helmets or to uphold a heavy advantage versus the non-helmets. So all new growth, on average, narrows the gap rather than widening it.
That doesn't mean there aren't still arms races. The new arms races seem to be about other things -- as a Michigan fan, I think that assistant salaries and the size/quality of football experts on staff to sit in desks and do film-watching/spreadsheet- or analytics-magic are part of this. I also think trips abroad could become part of this.
We should also note that not every A.D. equally returns their football revenue to football. Some are giving large fractions back to non-revenue sports. Which is almost a form of charity. Not technically, as these are supposedly non-profit entities, but if you were to compare, e.g., the extent to which the Big Ten funds track&field, softball, and swimming facility construction versus that of the SEC, I'd expect a significant difference (in both raw terms and in terms of the fraction of gross revenue diverted to non-revenue construction).