CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Kris60 on February 20, 2023, 09:38:55 PM
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The one that will garner the most attention is the clock still running after an incomplete pass, which, honestly, seems ludicrous to me. A running clock after a first down would also be a significant change, but something we’ve all seen forever in the NFL.
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I think the 3 rules changes will happen, but not the running clock after an incomplete pass. That'd remove like 10-15 plays per game. That's a lot.
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I don't totally mind the clock running after a first down for most of the game, but would very much like the current rules in in the last five minutes of halves (frankly, I think they should go further and require advancing the ball to roll the clock in the last two minutes, but no one wants that Arena rule, but me).
Incomplete seem silly. I'd also favor a 45 second cap on replays, cut halftime, cut some commercials. Assuming we want shorter games, which honestly seems like a sort of silly goal
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They CLAIM they want shorter games due to safety (ie - fewer plays, not necessarily fewer minutes).
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https://www.si.com/college/2023/02/20/college-football-shorter-game-rules
Sorry. Meant to post a link in my original post and forgot to.
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They did this like 15 years ago, and had the clock run when the ball was kicked, and continue running after the special teams play, it was stupid and they got rid of it after a year.
I think Bielema gamed it one time.
I would get rid of any automatic reviews, and go to a 100% challenge system. You get it right, good on you, you get it wrong, you lose a time out. If you are out of timeouts, you cant challenge anything.
I would also be fine with the clock not stopping on first downs anymore
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They did this like 15 years ago, and had the clock run when the ball was kicked, and continue running after the special teams play, it was stupid and they got rid of it after a year.
I think Bielema gamed it one time.
I would get rid of any automatic reviews, and go to a 100% challenge system. You get it right, good on you, you get it wrong, you lose a time out. If you are out of timeouts, you cant challenge anything.
I would also be fine with the clock not stopping on first downs anymore
Yes, he did, and it really pissed off JoePa.
Why are people constantly trying to wreck the game? Do they hate us that much?
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Yes, he did, and it really pissed off JoePa.
Why are people constantly trying to wreck the game? Do they hate us that much?
It's all about the Benjamins. The fewer plays they can have in a game, the more time for commercials and thus, the more revenue from the sponsors. The networks only care about 1 thing and it is not football.
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Badgers' ploy exploits new rule vs. PSU https://archive.triblive.com/news/badgers-ploy-exploits-new-rule-vs-psu/ Man, I remember JoPa was furious.
A couple of things stood out from the SI article Kris60 linked:
1) Non-televised games are only two minutes shorter than televised. I call Bull sh!t, on that.
2) The college game on average last 11 minutes longer with 25 more plays.
3) college half time is 20 minutes, where the NFL is only 12. (Gosh there are 8 minutes (75%) that can get made up with out changing a thing.
I'm intrigued by the clock keeps running on an incomplete pass rule. The game changes so much in those last 2-4 minutes of a game, it becomes pass only. I think this rule will change how those last few minutes are played out. (Everything to the outside so you can get out of bounds and shorter passes so everyone can get back to the line faster.)
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I'd rather have more plays and fewer delays
I'd be fine with no reviews for refs.
call it like you see it like the old daze
yes, they get some wrong, they have replay and still get them wrong
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There would be fewer last-minute comebacks. Most would say that's a loss of entertainment. I like fewer comebacks, personally. I think the team that earned the lead playing "normal" football should win as often as possible. It's kind of lame that a team can win the game, playing 7-on-7 in the last 90 seconds.
But I'm in the minority, I know.
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Good points OAM, how dare you draw attention to residual outcomes!
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There would be fewer last-minute comebacks. Most would say that's a loss of entertainment. I like fewer comebacks, personally. I think the team that earned the lead playing "normal" football should win as often as possible. It's kind of lame that a team can win the game, playing 7-on-7 in the last 90 seconds.
But I'm in the minority, I know.
As you said, you are most likely in the minority.
I would counter with there is a reason the game is 60 mins long instead of 58 mins and 30 secs. If a team is able to come back and pull out a win in the last 90 secs, that makes for a great game. Teams have to play all 60 mins.
That is the same as when people complain about a penalty being called in the last couple of mins in a game. If it was a foul in the first 58 mins, it is a foul in the last 2. And no, the refs didn't decide the game, the person committing the penalty caused the flag. Now I don't care for refs that call a foul late in the game when they let that same foul happen earlier in the game. Officiate every play the same regardless of who commits the foul or when it is committed.
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Right.
There are no rules stopping a team from playing the first 58 minutes the way they might play the last 2 during a comeback. Nothing more than a longstanding convention to play more conservatively, early. But why?
And the spread of the HUNH is showing that more coaches are willing to play "riskier" football earlier in the game, anyway.
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the 2 minute drill at the end of each half is part of the game just as the first drive of the game or the 2nd half
but, if you want to eliminate time outs and clock stops after first downs that's fine with me
if could turn into the 3 minute drill
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Right.
There are no rules stopping a team from playing the first 58 minutes the way they might play the last 2 during a comeback. Nothing more than a longstanding convention to play more conservatively, early. But why?
And the spread of the HUNH is showing that more coaches are willing to play "riskier" football earlier in the game, anyway.
I mean, the HUNH is the 2-minute offense all game.
I know CFB already has some OOB clock rules that are tied to the end of half stuff. Expand those.
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I guess I am missing something. What's wrong with the clock running after an incomplete pass? I mean, If it's OK for the clock to run after a running play or a completed pass, why shouldn't it keep running after an incomplete pass?
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it's fine if you want to shorten the game and run fewer plays
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I guess I am missing something. What's wrong with the clock running after an incomplete pass? I mean, If it's OK for the clock to run after a running play or a completed pass, why shouldn't it keep running after an incomplete pass?
Basic structure of the game as it is and has been constructed?
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I guess I am missing something. What's wrong with the clock running after an incomplete pass? I mean, If it's OK for the clock to run after a running play or a completed pass, why shouldn't it keep running after an incomplete pass?
Basic structure of the game as it is and has been constructed?
I wonder if the original intent of the rule, was to give the refs more time to retrieve and set the ball, since an incomplete pass is often further away from where the two squads end a play, compared to a running play or even a completed pass? And, now that they have multiple balls they can sub in from the sidelines, it's a bit antiquated?
Beyond that, I agree with LittlePig-- it's always seemed arbitrary to me that an incomplete pass stops the clock. I understand that changing the rule and making it consistent across all types of plays could dramatically change the way games are played, especially in the final minutes of a half. But... so what?
In general I'm in favor of consistency in the rules, and against arbitrary carve-outs that are meaningless with respect to the regular sporting intent of the on-field play.
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Right, if you can't stop the clock in the last 2 minutes, it just means you better start running your 2-minute offense a little sooner.
With that said, I would not mind this change. I would get rid of all timeouts and have a rule that says the clock stops after every play in the last minute only. This would be true regardless of whether the offense is ahead or behind. If the offense is ahead, they can not simply kneel down to end the game. If the offense is behind, they will have a chance to score without needing to call time-outs or get out of bounds.
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Right, if you can't stop the clock in the last 2 minutes, it just means you better start running your 2-minute offense a little sooner.
With that said, I would not mind this change. I would get rid of all timeouts and have a rule that says the clock stops after every play in the last minute only. This would be true regardless of whether the offense is ahead or behind. If the offense is ahead, they can not simply kneel down to end the game. If the offense is behind, they will have a chance to score without needing to call time-outs or get out of bounds.
Just as I don't see why a clock rule should be different for an incomplete pass compared to a running play, I also don't see any reason to change a clock rule for the final minute of the game. If the rule was appropriate for the first 59 minutes, it is appropriate for the final minute.
The rulebook needs to be smaller, not larger. Make them all consistent. Make them the same for every type of play, and at every point in the game.
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Just as I don't see why a clock rule should be different for an incomplete pass compared to a running play, I also don't see any reason to change a clock rule for the final minute of the game. If the rule was appropriate for the first 59 minutes, it is appropriate for the final minute.
The rulebook needs to be smaller, not larger. Make them all consistent. Make them the same for every type of play, and at every point in the game.
Fair enough. How do you feel about time-outs? Should teams get any time-outs?
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I wonder if the original intent of the rule, was to give the refs more time to retrieve and set the ball, since an incomplete pass is often further away from where the two squads end a play, compared to a running play or even a completed pass? And, now that they have multiple balls they can sub in from the sidelines, it's a bit antiquated?
Beyond that, I agree with LittlePig-- it's always seemed arbitrary to me that an incomplete pass stops the clock. I understand that changing the rule and making it consistent across all types of plays could dramatically change the way games are played, especially in the final minutes of a half. But... so what?
In general I'm in favor of consistency in the rules, and against arbitrary carve-outs that are meaningless with respect to the regular sporting intent of the on-field play.
I think that probably was the original intent of the rule, but I think it’s still valid. How often do you see a QB zip a pass over a guy’s head over the middle and it goes skipping 20-30 yards downfield? I get that there is a ball boy ready with a new ball but someone still has to retrieve the ball that might end up 50 yards past the LOS. You can’t just leave it in the middle of the field. It just seems weird to punish the offense with a ticking clock while a 60 year old with a pot belly slow jogs to get the ball.
Idk. I don’t worry about the length of games as much as some others do I guess. I usually reserve my dinners with world leaders during the week so I can watch the games I want to on Saturday. 😁
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Who is complaining about the length of football games in the first place?? Aside from the 7-overtime goofball games, I have literally never even considered a game being too long.
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Who is complaining about the length of football games in the first place?? Aside from the 7-overtime goofball games, I have literally never even considered a game being too long.
Same. Years ago I watched an interview with John Madden and the reporter asked him about the length of games. He said he had never watched a really great football game and afterwards said, “Holy shit, that took forever!” That’s always sort have been my take on it.
If I’m watching a game on a Saturday it’s usually my main priority that day anyway. I’m not checking my watch if it goes past the 3 hour mark.
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Fair enough. How do you feel about time-outs? Should teams get any time-outs?
I'm fine with timeouts, as long as everything about them is equal and equitable. Both teams have the same amount, they can be used at any point in time during the game, they're always the same length, etc. 3 per half seems to have worked okay for my lifetime but I suppose that number could be up for discussion.
Idk. I don’t worry about the length of games as much as some others do I guess. I usually reserve my dinners with world leaders during the week so I can watch the games I want to on Saturday. 😁
I'm not overly concerned about the length of the games either. I just think it's strange and arbitrary to stop the clock after one type of play, but not after others. I don't really think there's a whole lot of danger in keeping the clock running after a deep incompletion, there are plenty of people to retrieve the ball downfield, and plenty of other people to toss the refs a fresh ball. I consider this to be a complete non-issue.
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3 TOs is fine
one being a 30 sec TO
it's the zebras with replay and the TV commercials that are too long
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Nothing will ever be done about TV commercials but I'm fine with eliminating replay review. I don't think it's helped much and in some ways it makes things worse, because when things are slowed down that much, even things that look apparent at speed, become questionable. Catch vs. no-catch in utlra slow-mo is always going to look weird. So just stop reviewing it. It's silly and subjective Kill it off, fine with me.
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yup
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I'm not overly concerned about the length of the games either. I just think it's strange and arbitrary to stop the clock after one type of play, but not after others. I don't really think there's a whole lot of danger in keeping the clock running after a deep incompletion, there are plenty of people to retrieve the ball downfield, and plenty of other people to toss the refs a fresh ball. I consider this to be a complete non-issue.
Regardless of how it began, the clock stopping after an incompletion is now a major part of the strategy of the game. While it may be antiquated in the functionality of the game, it's now a pivotal part of the end of each half.
So while it's a non-issue to change it, it's also an odd stance to insist it goes away.
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I'm not in favor of changing the clock stoppage after in incomplete pass
if you want to run clock, run the ball or use high percentage passes
if you want to stop the clock throw the ball downfield
not for any other reason than it's been that way for a long time
I don't see a reason to change
if you want to speed up the game and make it more enjoyable for fans, get rid of instant replay
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If the trend continues towards more and more streaming, I would like to see them eventually going with 2 streaming options. One where you pay extra to watch the game ad-free with no commercial interruptions. The other where you pay for the basic service and the broadcast breaks away to show ads while live action continues. Then when it comes back from commercials, it shows all the replays of plays missed until it catches up.
The main reason I like this option is the actual game goes quicker for the fans in the stands.
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Who is complaining about the length of football games in the first place?? Aside from the 7-overtime goofball games, I have literally never even considered a game being too long.
You obviously did not watch any Iowa games last season. That 7-3 punt fest against SDSU was tough to watch.
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This game is about moving parts of different purposes into concert and achieving singular goal. It's components in terms of beef is just a part. Strategies and tactics are another and equal to beef. Then there is the clock. This is just gameday- this isn't all the preparations and rehearsal.
You spike or throw a low percentage pass to stop the clock, you've just given up a down. You're odds of gaining the 1st down are seriously diminished. Your odds of scoring on a longer field are as well- as you're going to have to reach into the bag of tricks to score or get the down. That tips your opponent today and next week of your capabilites and that too is part of the game.
Leave the damn game alone. Changing things is a transparent intent to benefit the very few if not the singular. And it eliminates advantages hard fought for and secured by the established winners while allowing a crevice for something new to emerge. New ain't always bad, but let that shit develop and seep into the game all by themselves, for crying out loud.
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They changed when the play clock starts to move things along. That was a great tactic to abuse in late game situations, as a team could kill another four to eight seconds or more per play by simply running outside the hash marks.
The extra cleanup time in order to spot and place the ball for the refs was an easy way to choke the life out of the clock.
These are all arbitrary ways of playing no different than 90 foot base paths and 60 feet 6 inches. They don't have to be any way.
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I think going to a full challenge replay system is an easy fix.
My other issue is the hurry up and wait. You want to go fast? Cool. I hate running up to the line so that the defense can't substitute, to then look over to the sidelines and stand there for 25 seconds signalling the play to everyone, while nothing happens.
I learned more football from the analysts breaking the previous play down during the huddle than from watching the game itself. Then I learned what to look for. That has been removed so we can watch a QB tap his helmet for 25 seconds, just in case he snaps the ball.
I'm not sure what the easy fix is to that though. The analytics show that you are better off running a simple offense against a gassed defense. Like most sports, the math has showed us that the most efficient way to play the game is generally the least enjoyable version. It's why basketball has turned into a 3 point shooting contest, and baseball is just a bunch of home runs and strike outs
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I think going to a full challenge replay system is an easy fix.
The analytics show that you are better off running a simple offense against a gassed defense. Like most sports, the math has showed us that the most efficient way to play the game is generally the least enjoyable version. It's why basketball has turned into a 3 point shooting contest, and baseball is just a bunch of home runs and strike outs
Ehh, the history of the sport has also shown us the simplest ways are usually the best, regardless of pace. Kids have to learn less, kids play faster and freer, better final results.
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Looking forward to less football and more commercials where football used to be.
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I actually don't see this being replaced by more commercials. Does anybody watch commercials? If it's an MSU game, I'm locked on to the channel, otherwise I'm flipping around. I think that's why a lot of sports have gone to the split screen brief commercials during brief stoppages.
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Who is complaining about the length of football games in the first place?? Aside from the 7-overtime goofball games, I have literally never even considered a game being too long.
I don't believe these proposed rule changes have anything to do with people complaining about the length of the game. This is about carving out more time from the game for commercials for the networks to pay more money to the conferences for TV rights. The less game the actual game is played, the more commercials they can squeeze into the 3 or so hours allotted.
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I'm not overly concerned about the length of the games either. I just think it's strange and arbitrary to stop the clock after one type of play, but not after others. I don't really think there's a whole lot of danger in keeping the clock running after a deep incompletion, there are plenty of people to retrieve the ball downfield, and plenty of other people to toss the refs a fresh ball. I consider this to be a complete non-issue.
But what about the receivers and DB's that are 50 yds downfield and have to run back to get set for the next play? Also, the side judges and back judges have to hustle back to their positions before the ball is marked ready for play. With a running clock after a long incompletion and game time expiring, if you team was behind and the clock was running out trying to get everyone back to the LOS, you would/could be furious.
Having been a HS official for 30 years, I understand the mechanics involved in ending one play and being ready to begin another. From my perspective, it is intuitive that the clock stops after an incomplete pass. Anything else would just feel weird.
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3 TOs is fine
one being a 30 sec TO
it's the zebras with replay and the TV commercials that are too long
Exactly! Do away with instant replay and the games will be shortened without have to change a bunch of other rules.
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I actually don't see this being replaced by more commercials. Does anybody watch commercials? If it's an MSU game, I'm locked on to the channel, otherwise I'm flipping around. I think that's why a lot of sports have gone to the split screen brief commercials during brief stoppages.
They don't care if you watch the commercials, they just need to get them in to charge the customer.
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But what about the receivers and DB's that are 50 yds downfield and have to run back to get set for the next play? Also, the side judges and back judges have to hustle back to their positions before the ball is marked ready for play. With a running clock after a long incompletion and game time expiring, if you team was behind and the clock was running out trying to get everyone back to the LOS, you would/could be furious.
Having been a HS official for 30 years, I understand the mechanics involved in ending one play and being ready to begin another. From my perspective, it is intuitive that the clock stops after an incomplete pass. Anything else would just feel weird.
But don't the WRs that ran 50 yards downfield have to get back to the line for the next play regardless of whether the clock stops or not? Unless you are talking about the last 2 minutes of each half. Otherwise I don't see the issue if the clock keeps running after an incomplete pass.
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But what about the receivers and DB's that are 50 yds downfield and have to run back to get set for the next play? Also, the side judges and back judges have to hustle back to their positions before the ball is marked ready for play. With a running clock after a long incompletion and game time expiring, if you team was behind and the clock was running out trying to get everyone back to the LOS, you would/could be furious.
Having been a HS official for 30 years, I understand the mechanics involved in ending one play and being ready to begin another. From my perspective, it is intuitive that the clock stops after an incomplete pass. Anything else would just feel weird.
On a 50-yard completion in-bounds, the o-line and QB and probably d-line at the very least, and the side judges and back judges, have to run 50 yards the other way, to set up the next play, and yet the clock doesn't stop, other than enough time to reset the chains assuming it was a first down, right?
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But what about the receivers and DB's that are 50 yds downfield and have to run back to get set for the next play? Also, the side judges and back judges have to hustle back to their positions before the ball is marked ready for play. With a running clock after a long incompletion and game time expiring, if you team was behind and the clock was running out trying to get everyone back to the LOS, you would/could be furious.
Having been a HS official for 30 years, I understand the mechanics involved in ending one play and being ready to begin another. From my perspective, it is intuitive that the clock stops after an incomplete pass. Anything else would just feel weird.
I am all for starting the clock on the ready after an incomplete pass. Not to have it keep running throughout the process
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On a 50-yard completion in-bounds, the o-line and QB and probably d-line at the very least, and the side judges and back judges, have to run 50 yards the other way, to set up the next play, and yet the clock doesn't stop, other than enough time to reset the chains assuming it was a first down, right?
Starts on the ready, not necessarily when the chains are set if there was a first down. Many times in a HS game, we will wound the clock when just the box is set but not the chains.
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I am all for starting the clock on the ready after an incomplete pass. Not to have it keep running throughout the process
Starts on the ready, not necessarily when the chains are set if there was a first down. Many times in a HS game, we will wound the clock when just the box is set but not the chains.
Gotcha. So yeah, I don't see any reason why you couldn't wind the clock on the ready after an incomplete pass, same as any other play. I don't see a legitimate, functional, or sporting reason why it should be treated any differently.
Now historically, obviously there are reasons. And a lot of current strategy is built on these regulations.
But so what?
To keep a rule just because that's the way it's been for a long time? Eh. I'd rather see inconsistencies eliminated and the rulebook shortened.
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Gotcha. So yeah, I don't see any reason why you couldn't wind the clock on the ready after an incomplete pass, same as any other play. I don't see a legitimate, functional, or sporting reason why it should be treated any differently.
Now historically, obviously there are reasons. And a lot of current strategy is built on these regulations.
But so what?
To keep a rule just because that's the way it's been for a long time? Eh. I'd rather see inconsistencies eliminated and the rulebook shortened.
Every year in HS there are rule changes, some are safety, some are to make us more like College. It use to be that the NFHS wanted to make as few "exceptions" as possible with HS Rules, but it seems like most of the rules that are changed are to make exceptions to the current rules and just making the rule book even larger. Personally I stay in the rule book most of the year and am the rule "expert" for my crew but each year it gets harder and harder to keep up with it. It's not the rules, in general, it is all the exceptions that keep being added year after year. I am all for simplification, but ain't going happen, It just like the gov't simplifing the tax code.
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On a 50-yard completion in-bounds, the o-line and QB and probably d-line at the very least, and the side judges and back judges, have to run 50 yards the other way, to set up the next play, and yet the clock doesn't stop, other than enough time to reset the chains assuming it was a first down, right?
Correct. At least the clock stopped giving the Refs, chain crew and both teams time to get downfield for the next play. But if they change that rule, it would NOT stop on an incompletion.
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Every year in HS there are rule changes, some are safety, some are to make us more like College. It use to be that the NFHS wanted to make as few "exceptions" as possible with HS Rules, but it seems like most of the rules that are changed are to make exceptions to the current rules and just making the rule book even larger. Personally I stay in the rule book most of the year and am the rule "expert" for my crew but each year it gets harder and harder to keep up with it. It's not the rules, in general, it is all the exceptions that keep being added year after year. I am all for simplification, but ain't going happen, It just like the gov't simplifing the tax code.
I was the rules interpreter for out officials association for a few years. To pile on the NFHS exceptions, the state would also have it's exceptions confusing the matter even further.
Being as I retired from officiating a few years back, I have not kept up with the recent rule changes.
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Correct. At least the clock stopped giving the Refs, chain crew and both teams time to get downfield for the next play. But if they change that rule, it would NOT stop on an incompletion.
Again, there's no reason it couldn't be treated the same way as any other play. Stop the clock long enough to get set, then wind it. There's no reason other than history, for an incomplete pass to have different rules.
Simplify the rulebook, eliminate exceptions, place less of a burden on the officials to remember a bunch of inconsequential details.
And yes I realize these things are unlikely to happen. But what are message boards even for, if not to discuss such matters?