CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: MikeDeTiger on November 28, 2022, 12:31:39 PM
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...help me with some background info here.
If I listened to major media, I'd believe that Kelly jumped south because he thinks he can win a championship in BR, and that he can get recruits at LSU that he couldn't at ND.
So I looked up recruiting for the past decade on the 247 composite, and that doesn't seem to lend much support. LSU has generally finished ahead of ND in the composite rankings, but ND is almost always in the Top Ten, I believe falling out of that range only once, and even then I think it was still top 15. That's not a material difference in terms of raw talent.
But he still wasn't contending for championships there, and I read he only had 2 wins against top 10 ranked teams in 9 years there. Talent doesn't seem to be the problem, and schedule certainly wasn't. Doesn't seem to fit the narrative that he can do better at LSU due to more access to talent, particularly when the SEC west schedule typically stands to be rated tougher than the average ND schedule.
I ask all this because there was a lot to like about his first season in Baton Rouge, but also a couple of games where it seemed like he and his staff must've been playing cards all week. No plan to speak of, and some truly head-scratching in-game decisions. Some LSU fans have told me that's been a knock on Kelly, a couple games every year that are poorly coached and have a WTF? feel.
I haven't had much time to pay attention to the Domers in the Kelly era, so if anybody here has thoughts about him, I'm interested to hear them. Going solely by this season I feel far better about him than Orgeron, but if he routinely drops games he "shouldn't" then we're kind of right back at the tail end of the Les Miles era, which was supposed to be unacceptable and still didn't carry this price tag.
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wonder if him jumping ship could have to do with academics restrictions- not being able to admit HS recruit or get transfers he wants in.
probably more to do with just recruiting in general though. Kelly is said to hate recruiting. there is next to no talent in the state of Indiana. Louisiana is loaded with talent every year. and most these kids dream of growing up to stay home and play for LSU.
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Even with the tougher schedule I think he still has a better chance to win an NC in Baton Rouge than he did is South Bend because he'll generally get more chances.
Prior to the aTm loss, LSU probably controlled their own CFP destiny despite having two losses because of that tougher SEC-W SOS and the SECCG.
11-2 SEC Champion LSU is going to the CFP pretty much every time. 10-2 non-Champion Notre Dame might never going to make the CFP.
That, I think, may be the real reason he left.
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yup, he probably figured he could do cornsiderably better with recruiting at LSU
getting a top ten class every season was tough at ND, a top 5 class at LSU would be easier (let the assistants Git'R done)
and yes, Kelly always seemed to have a couple games a year that were head scratching losses to equal or inferior teams
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He was a good recruiter at Notre Dame, but there is a pretty big difference in a top ten recruiting class and a top 3 recruiting class.
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If you win the SEC, yougetintotheplayoffseverytimeIthink.
Unlessyouare10-3.
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ND can be 11-1and miss out.
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Yeah, I view it as an academics thing where he can get anyone into LSU and not just anyone into ND.
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While his recruiting classes at ND were good and all, there was a definite ceiling he hit there. He could go 10-2, but he had like zero wins over elite teams. Whether the recruiting services are wrong or right, programs such as LSU don't ever seem to have that problem. They may get outcoached or injuries or yada yada, but they're never out-talented.
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While we know who ND signed under Kelly, we aren't privy to all the elite recruits he didn't get (and why).
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He was a good recruiter at Notre Dame, but there is a pretty big difference in a top ten recruiting class and a top 3 recruiting class.
ND in large part can help anyone recruit. I don't think any school "recruits itself" but at ND- you can get in any living room and get in any battle anywhere in the country. Freeman has got them in that top 3 range. Why? He's a much better recruiter.
From what I've heard/gathered, Kelly really hates recruiting. Not that he's terrible at it- he just doesn't really try all that hard. He'd rather do other things and let his assistants do 99.99% of it- and that he rarely gets personally involved in many if any recruitments. That's a drastic 180 from how Freeman has attacked things.
At LSU- there are tons of recruits in his back yard- and most of them grew up wanting to play for LSU. He doesn't have to fly all over the country from middle of nowhere Indiana to California, Florida, Texas, GA, PA, NC, SC, etc., etc.. and kiss 17 year olds asses and beg them to come to Notre Dame- a school that is far away and if we're being honest fkn sucks. South Bend is an armpit. He doesn't even have leave his back yard and he'll have plenty of high level recruits from Louisiana begging to go to LSU. He has to beg most kids to come to Notre Dame. Won't have to do that in LSU.
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While we know who ND signed under Kelly, we aren't privy to all the elite recruits he didn't get (and why).
Definitely something I hadn't considered.
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He was a good recruiter at Notre Dame, but there is a pretty big difference in a top ten recruiting class and a top 3 recruiting class.
May be, but the difference could easily be negated by being stuck in a division with the perennial #1 recruiting team, and it's worth noting that LSU doesn't usually land in the top 3. Top 5 pretty often, top 10 most of the time....top 3, iirc, not so much. It also begs the question, if he was recruiting at a top ten level, why couldn't he beat top ten teams? (Granted I don't know how often ND played top ten teams. Only that they mostly didn't win those games when they did play them.)
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Its more difficult to recruit at Notre Dame than at LSU. Recruits need to be fairly solid students as well as gifted athletes.
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Right, but what's in question is that he did recruit top ten classes consistently at ND, with an negligible difference in average than LSU over the same time frame, yet still didn't win big games apparently. Which is why it seems like a flawed narrative to assume that he can do better in Baton Rouge.
I don't mean to be argumentative, I'm just trying to figure out why "they" are so certain he'll be better here than with touchdown Jesus.
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Kelly had not won a national championship after 12 years at Notre Dame. To do so in the SEC has to be at least as hard. Not sure he'll be able to do it for LSU. Expectations at LSU are pretty high just like at Notre Dame. I probably wouldn't have hired him if I was LSU's AD. Or fired Ogeron for that matter.
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maybe Kelly just moved for more $$$
and perhaps he wasn't being treated as well any longer at ND
grass was greener
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Better food. Obviously.
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Kelly needled Notre Dame for more money on more than one occasion. But as to LSU's reasons for hiring him I'm at a loss.
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They are all pressure cookers, but the pressure at ND is pretty intense, even by big football school standards. And at the same time, the school's admin hamstrings the recruiting more than at other schools, like LSU. I suspect that after 12 years, he probably felt like he didn't see an obvious path to a national title at a program that will never truly love him unless he gets one, so decided to pack it up and try somewhere else with a little more money, a little more flexibility, and a bit of a fresh start.
It's a job, and he felt like LSU would be a better job for him at that moment. So he moved.
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Right, but what's in question is that he did recruit top ten classes consistently at ND, with an negligible difference in average than LSU over the same time frame, yet still didn't win big games apparently. Which is why it seems like a flawed narrative to assume that he can do better in Baton Rouge.
I don't mean to be argumentative, I'm just trying to figure out why "they" are so certain he'll be better here than with touchdown Jesus.
There are studies that show ND is by far the most overrated team when comparing preseason rankings to the final, actual rankings.
It's possible it's the same in recruiting.
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Another idea that just popped into my head is that maybe ND's top recruits are at certain positions....TE, G, LB. They have plenty of * but they're not getting the DT that runs a 4.7 forty or anything like that. If none of your 5* guys are CBs or DEs or RBs with speed & size, then it's sort of a waste.
Connected to that point is that I always found it funny that every year, they top 100 players would have like 7 TEs in it, and only about 1.5 of them would become a big contributor. Offenses weren't really built to rely on a TE, but that's changed a bit recently. But the point is that it was silly to include so many TEs at the top end of the bell curve if their ceiling was 30 catches a year.
Anywho, maybe ND's elite talent has mostly been at positions that limit their ability to shine. Idk, I'd have to study it.
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Kelly has had ND in the title game twice I think. Both resulted in SEC smack downs. He’s had them in the CFP, I think he got smacked down there as well.
He probably figured if you can’t beat them, join them. Plus, LSU has won the MNC 3 x this century. Already a bigger blue blood than Neb, OU, ND, etc.
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Kelly has had ND in the title game twice I think. Both resulted in SEC smack downs. He’s had them in the CFP, I think he got smacked down there as well.
He probably figured if you can’t beat them, join them. Plus, LSU has won the MNC 3 x this century. Already a bigger blue blood than Neb, OU, ND, etc.
That's not how you become a blue blood. It's how you become a Miami or Florida State or Clemson.
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21st Century Blue-Bloods
(2000-2021: top 15 win% AND won a NC)
1. Ohio State (2002, 2014)
2. Oklahoma (2000)
3. Alabama (2009, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2017, 2020)
4. Georgia (2021)
5. LSU (2003, 2005, 2019)
6. Clemson (2016, 2018)
7. USC (2004)
8. Texas (2005)
9. Florida (2006, 2008)
10. Auburn (2010)
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Teams with top 10 win%, but no NC: Oregon, Wisconsin, TCU, Miami
Teams with a NC, but lower win%: Florida St
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If I had to give NC bonuses to re-rank those 10 programs this century, it'd look like this:
1. Alabama
2. Ohio St
3. LSU
4. Clemson
5. Oklahoma
6. Georgia
7. Florida
8. USC
9. Texas
10. Auburn.......you could rank FSU 9th maybe, but idk.
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By definition, there is no such thing as a "modern" blue blood.
But it's certainly arguable that being a recently successful program, feels better than being a foundering blue blood.
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That's not how you become a blue blood. It's how you become a Miami or Florida State or Clemson.
It doesn’t really matter what does and doesn’t constitute a blue blood.
What happened in the 1950’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, is history.
Notre Dame, Nebraska, they may never win big again. Michigan may never win big, or USC.
Paradigms shift all the time.
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It doesn’t really matter what does and doesn’t constitute a blue blood.
What happened in the 1950’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, is history.
Notre Dame, Nebraska, they may never win big again. Michigan may never win big, or USC.
Paradigms shift all the time.
I disagree. No matter how much recent success you have had, you are one bad hire away from being irrelevant. On the flip side, the Blue bloods, the true Blue bloods, are immediately well set up, as soon as they get that hire right. Even when they are down, as far as results, the talent is always there
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It doesn’t really matter what does and doesn’t constitute a blue blood.
What happened in the 1950’s, 60’s, 70’s, 80’s, is history.
Notre Dame, Nebraska, they may never win big again. Michigan may never win big, or USC.
Paradigms shift all the time.
I'm not sure where you're going with this. Notre Dame has been in the CFP twice. Michigan was in the CFP just last year and is undefeated with a huge win over its previously undefeated archrival just 2 days ago. That's not the 60s 70s or 80s. That's this week.
And clearly it DOES matter what does and doesn't constitute a blue blood, because we're discussing it now.
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21st Century Blue-Bloods
(2000-2021: top 15 win% AND won a NC)
1. Ohio State (2002, 2014)
2. Oklahoma (2000)
3. Alabama (2009, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2017, 2020)
4. Georgia (2021)
5. LSU (2003, 2005, 2019)
6. Clemson (2016, 2018)
7. USC (2004)
8. Texas (2005)
9. Florida (2006, 2008)
10. Auburn (2010)
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Teams with top 10 win%, but no NC: Oregon, Wisconsin, TCU, Miami
Teams with a NC, but lower win%: Florida St
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If I had to give NC bonuses to re-rank those 10 programs this century, it'd look like this:
1. Alabama
2. Ohio St
3. LSU
4. Clemson
5. Oklahoma
6. Georgia
7. Florida
8. USC
9. Texas
10. Auburn.......you could rank FSU 9th maybe, but idk.
My observation as well. Amazing that Texas still ranks in that list despite being very bad the last dozen years.
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I'm with SFBadger on this, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Good coaches/employees/execs. leave 'good jobs' quite often. The reasons are often not that complicated.
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21st Century Blue-Bloods
(2000-2021: top 15 win% AND won a NC)
5. LSU (2003, 2005, 2019)
it was in 2007 Longhorns won it in 2005.Rose Bowl Vince Young vs USC and Reggie Bush
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can we please bury this thread?
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Well the thread isn't a Budweiser you could have left it alone and perhaps it gets buried.But now utee will be along to bump it just to piss you off :111:
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derned pot stirrin SEC Tiger stickin an ugly Domer thread on the B1G board
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Thanks
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Kelly had not won a national championship after 12 years at Notre Dame. To do so in the SEC has to be at least as hard. Not sure he'll be able to do it for LSU. Expectations at LSU are pretty high just like at Notre Dame. I probably wouldn't have hired him if I was LSU's AD. Or fired Ogeron for that matter.
No, that absolutely had to happen. For more than just on-field reasons, but the on-field stuff was pretty glaring and obvious.
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Notre Dame is in the B1G isn't it? Seems like an appropriate place for this thread.
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By definition, there is no such thing as a "modern" blue blood.
But it's certainly arguable that being a recently successful program, feels better than being a foundering blue blood.
Not to change the subject, but it doesn't overly matter as applies to LSU. They're plausibly a top 10ish all-time program (I've seen various lists using various metrics have them between about 9 to 13 or so....but haven't checked in a couple years and I could never ascertain how they weighted their categories). ymmv on what constitutes a "blue-blood," but there seems to be an erroneous perception that LSU had no history when Saban showed up.
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They are all pressure cookers, but the pressure at ND is pretty intense, even by big football school standards. And at the same time, the school's admin hamstrings the recruiting more than at other schools, like LSU. I suspect that after 12 years, he probably felt like he didn't see an obvious path to a national title at a program that will never truly love him unless he gets one, so decided to pack it up and try somewhere else with a little more money, a little more flexibility, and a bit of a fresh start.
It's a job, and he felt like LSU would be a better job for him at that moment. So he moved.
I get why Kelly moved. Any number of motivations could be behind that.
But the question is why do "they" (pundits) feel so confident he can do more at LSU than he did at Notre Dame? Kelly's reasons for leaving would seem to be immaterial.
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Because Kelly can dance and has a pretty good Southern drawl?
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Not to change the subject, but it doesn't overly matter as applies to LSU. They're plausibly a top 10ish all-time program (I've seen various lists using various metrics have them between about 9 to 13 or so....but haven't checked in a couple years and I could never ascertain how they weighted their categories). ymmv on what constitutes a "blue-blood," but there seems to be an erroneous perception that LSU had no history when Saban showed up.
What would their status be around 1999?
Totally agree that LSU is in that 9-13 range, but they made up a helluva lot of ground in the last ~20 years.
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I get why Kelly moved. Any number of motivations could be behind that.
But the question is why do "they" (pundits) feel so confident he can do more at LSU than he did at Notre Dame? Kelly's reasons for leaving would seem to be immaterial.
I'd say because Les Miles and Ed Orgeron won national championships there, and were otherwise uh...less than stellar coaches.
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I'd say because Les Miles and Ed Orgeron won national championships there, and were otherwise uh...less than stellar coaches.
Les won with a lot of left over players from Nick Saban. He took over a juggernaut well oiled machine.
Ed O was just a literal anomaly. Perfect storm. Getting Joe Burrow with a chip on his shoulder to transfer in. Something like that may never happen again.
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No, that absolutely had to happen. For more than just on-field reasons, but the on-field stuff was pretty glaring and obvious.
Really? let's have it warts and all,did he go all Les Miles?
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I'd say because Les Miles and Ed Orgeron won national championships there, and were otherwise uh...less than stellar coaches.
You know, this does make some sense, given that the perception you outline is in fact a common one.
I still maintain, with plenty of supporting evidence, that Les Miles was a much, much better coach than he ever got credit for, even within--and maybe especially within--the LSU fanbase. And that Orgeron was not nearly as good as 2019 made people think he was, again, with supporting evidence.
But your point stands....if the last 3 coaches won titles there, it may be reasonable to expect the next guy could too.
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Les won with a lot of left over players from Nick Saban. He took over a juggernaut well oiled machine.
Ed O was just a literal anomaly. Perfect storm. Getting Joe Burrow with a chip on his shoulder to transfer in. Something like that may never happen again.
Spot on re: Ed O, imo.
Re: Miles, that's always been a narrative about him, but it's oversimplified. LSU was indeed a talented roster when Miles inherited it. That means less to me because despite what people want to remember, the LSU team Saban inherited from DiNardo was also loaded with over 20 future NFLers, and his first couple of years didn't indicate he was going to become Nick Saban. DiNardo could recruit, he just couldn't coach worth a damn. Saban's final team (the year after his NC) went 9-3 with losses to pretty much every decent team they played (although they certainly weren't a poor team, just not a very good one). Les took that program on a 34-6 3-yr run, the best stretch in LSU history at the time. The 2007 team did have some guys recruited by Saban, but most of them never played for him and weren't developed by his staff. And certainly many major contributors of that team were juniors or below, without redshirts, who were not recruited by Saban at all. Only redshirt juniors and seniors would've even been recruited by Saban. And then factor in that if "Saban's recruits" were what made Miles successful, his own recruiting classes kept him in the same situation. Which is no small part of why he then lead the team to another 34-6 3-yr stretch for a second time, this time far beyond Saban's time period. He did all this in a division with the biggest juggernaut in history overshadowing everything, and he's got the best winning % of any LSU coach in school history, including Saban, and as noted, there's not exactly a lack of history there. His worst season in 11+ years was 8 wins and an .800 win% across 11 years is great for most any team, and as noted, it made him the winningest coach in school history. Make no mistake, a huge portion of our fanbase wants to give credit to Saban for every game he won (and blame Miles for every loss, because that totally makes sense), but the facts indicate Miles was just a good fit for LSU and a great coach for us.
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What would their status be around 1999?
As in, all-time? No idea.
At the time? Hot steaming pile of derping garbage. Like, 3-9 level bad, pretty consistently. The 90's drove a lot of LSU fans to drinking. That's what they blame it on anyway.
At least we had baseball.
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Really? let's have it warts and all,did he go all Les Miles?
I don't know what that means, but he totally lost the team for several reasons I won't get into here, and his personal life suggests somebody who couldn't handle success. Left his wife of many years, the mother of his children, to be spotted with bimbos here and there, taking pictures with them in bed and having them posted on Instagram, etc....running off at the mouth to opposing team like @UCLA, none of which went over with admin well, and ultimately hitting on one of the board's wife at a gas station. By "hitting on" I mean apparently explicitly asking her to have sex with him. It got ugly. He doomed himself no matter what he did on the field, which was bad enough.
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Really? let's have it warts and all,did he go all Les Miles?
What I read:
Had bimbos at practice with him, trying to diddle a pregnant boosters wife to the point of openly harassing her in public.....
Basically, dragging his d*ck through anything and everything in sight, and not doing much in the way of discretion.
But, I'm just a Tenn boy that reads a lot. Mike may can elaborate, and/or nullify everything I just typed.
Edit: Confirmed. LOL
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Spot on re: Ed O, imo.
Re: Miles, that's always been a narrative about him, but it's oversimplified. LSU was indeed a talented roster when Miles inherited it. That means less to me because despite what people want to remember, the LSU team Saban inherited from DiNardo was also loaded with over 20 future NFLers, and his first couple of years didn't indicate he was going to become Nick Saban. DiNardo could recruit, he just couldn't coach worth a damn. Saban's final team (the year after his NC) went 9-3 with losses to pretty much every decent team they played (although they certainly weren't a poor team, just not a very good one). Les took that program on a 34-6 3-yr run, the best stretch in LSU history at the time. The 2007 team did have some guys recruited by Saban, but most of them never played for him and weren't developed by his staff. And certainly many major contributors of that team were juniors or below, without redshirts, who were not recruited by Saban at all. Only redshirt juniors and seniors would've even been recruited by Saban. And then factor in that if "Saban's recruits" were what made Miles successful, his own recruiting classes kept him in the same situation. Which is no small part of why he then lead the team to another 34-6 3-yr stretch for a second time, this time far beyond Saban's time period. He did all this in a division with the biggest juggernaut in history overshadowing everything, and he's got the best winning % of any LSU coach in school history, including Saban, and as noted, there's not exactly a lack of history there. His worst season in 11+ years was 8 wins and an .800 win% across 11 years is great for most any team, and as noted, it made him the winningest coach in school history. Make no mistake, a huge portion of our fanbase wants to give credit to Saban for every game he won (and blame Miles for every loss, because that totally makes sense), but the facts indicate Miles was just a good fit for LSU and a great coach for us.
Oh I think Les was a really good coach for LSU. Just noting the fact that he didn't have to really build it like Saban did. DiNardo was an awful coach. His record at every stop shows that. Nick took over a bad team and built them into an SEC power. Les took over a program that was already realllly good. He kept it going and won a title- so he certainly deserves a lot of credit for that. But he didn't have to build it from the ground up.
Ed O's record everywhere else he's been and without Joe Burrow shows just how mediocre of a head coach he is. Joe had the greatest single season by a college football player ever. I think that isn't even up for a debate. Maybe the only guy who could be in the convo was Barry Sanders' 1988 season- and the QB is far more important than the RB- so yeah- Joe B had the greatest season we've ever seen and probably may ever see from a college player.
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Yeah, pretty much.
The biggest thing Saban did for us was change the culture, and that was no small feat. The 90's were really, really bad, with three consecutive miserable failures of a coach. I don't view him harshly because it took him 4 years to win a title when he inherited a talented team. They just weren't used to winning, and worse, had gotten comfortable with being a bottom feeder. I don't think there was a quick fix for the job he had to do there. And it should be noted that he did leave an even better roster than what he inherited.
Kelly has a somewhat similar challenge. The program as a whole hasn't sunk too far, but the team itself, the teaching, and having an attitude of a consistent winner hit the toilet.
Thus my thread here. I'm just trying to get a read on what expectations should be. Y'all have had some pretty good input. Right now the jury is still out, but it probably depends on what Alabama does anyway. If they remain a juggernaut, they're always going to be an obstacle that's nigh impossible to get past. If they keep having seasons like this one, then I reckon Kelly can consistently field teams that can occasionally challenge.
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Yeah, pretty much.
The biggest thing Saban did for us was change the culture, and that was no small feat. The 90's were really, really bad, with three consecutive miserable failures of a coach. I don't view him harshly because it took him 4 years to win a title when he inherited a talented team. They just weren't used to winning, and worse, had gotten comfortable with being a bottom feeder. I don't think there was a quick fix for the job he had to do there. And it should be noted that he did leave an even better roster than what he inherited.
Kelly has a somewhat similar challenge. The program as a whole hasn't sunk too far, but the team itself, the teaching, and having an attitude of a consistent winner hit the toilet.
Thus my thread here. I'm just trying to get a read on what expectations should be. Y'all have had some pretty good input. Right now the jury is still out, but it probably depends on what Alabama does anyway. If they remain a juggernaut, they're always going to be an obstacle that's nigh impossible to get past. If they keep having seasons like this one, then I reckon Kelly can consistently field teams that can occasionally challenge.
Saban is what, 71? Have to think he's not got that much longer left. Guy just had his 15th straight 10+ win season at Bama and already has 6 Chips at Bama. Nothing left to prove and getting up there in age, can't see him staying around much longer.
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how old was JoePa? Bobby Bowden??
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his personal life suggests somebody who couldn't handle success. Left his wife of many years, the mother of his children, to be spotted with bimbos here and there, taking pictures with them in bed and having them posted on Instagram, etc....running off at the mouth to opposing team like @UCLA, none of which went over with admin well, and ultimately hitting on one of the board's wife at a gas station. By "hitting on" I mean apparently explicitly asking her to have sex with him. It got ugly. He doomed himself no matter what he did on the field, which was bad enough.
He looks and sounds like a yeti but dayum how the hell did he get so many gigs.You think someone would send out some warning flares
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As in, all-time? No idea.
At the time? Hot steaming pile of derping garbage. Like, 3-9 level bad, pretty consistently. The 90's drove a lot of LSU fans to drinking. That's what they blame it on anyway.
At least we had baseball.
Well, what I was referring to is the perception ( on my part) that LSU was sort of a middle road program, not unlike A&M, up until the time that Saban came aboard. I counted 7/8 SEC championships, one MNC in the 50’s. Nothing spectacular really. But in the last ~20 years LSU has really gained some ground in the pecking order. It’s actually really impressive, and as stated they did it in the shadow of the greatest era of the greatest program of all time.
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Not to change the subject, but it doesn't overly matter as applies to LSU. They're plausibly a top 10ish all-time program (I've seen various lists using various metrics have them between about 9 to 13 or so....but haven't checked in a couple years and I could never ascertain how they weighted their categories). ymmv on what constitutes a "blue-blood," but there seems to be an erroneous perception that LSU had no history when Saban showed up.
THE consensus "blue-bloods" of college football are the top 10 programs of all time, by win%:
(in no particular order) ND, UM, OSU, Neb, OU, USC, Tex, Bama, Tenn, Penn St
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Those are the blue-bloods going back to the beginning. It's still those 10. Then after that, you have, as I've noted in the past, the FL teams and other SECers (in order, FSU, UGA, LSU, Florida, Miami, Auburn).
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So it stands to reason that of the 2nd group that have had some kind of major success in the last 22 years, those would be the ones replacing the standard BBs' seats at the table. Nebraska has been down awhile, Tennessee before this year, Texas up-and-down, etc....
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If you're thumbing your nose at the traditional BBs, consider this: while Tennessee is 10th in all-time win% and UGA 12th, the Dawgs only have 3 fewer wins than the Vols, but 20 additional losses. And that's with the disparity in the programs the past few years. It takes a long time to "make up" 20 losses.
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What would their status be around 1999?
Totally agree that LSU is in that 9-13 range, but they made up a helluva lot of ground in the last ~20 years.
All-time win%, LSU was 17th as of 1999.
And the same 10 blue-bloods comprised the top 10 then, as they do now.
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All-time win%, LSU was 17th as of 1999.
And the same 10 blue-bloods comprised the top 10 then, as they do now.
Why is being a blue blood so important? In 2022, LSU seems >>>ND, Nebraska, UTenn, UTex, and probably everybody else except Bama.
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and in your previous post Clemson was not mentioned
for an up & comer that seemingly is headed for Blue Blood status, it doesn't take only a couple seasons not at the top to be forgotten
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- and the QB is far more important than the RB-
Not in the 80s, lol.
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Why is being a blue blood so important? In 2022, LSU seems >>>ND, Nebraska, UTenn, UTex, and probably everybody else except Bama.
I don't think I've said that it's important, just that the same 10 teams comprise that group. Whether it's today or 20 years ago or 50 years ago, it's those same 10 teams.
I suppose one could argue that they could be important in a few different ways.....
a - maybe they're the easiest to win at
b - maybe they're more likely to snowball into juggernauts, once you get them going
c - they definitely have the most pressure to win
d - they may be considered 'destination' jobs for coaches
e - they can and will pay the most money (on the average)
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*If you go back 50 years, Army and Minnesota were in there, but on their way out.
Nebraska and Penn State, replacing them.
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Clemson is 17th now, all-time.
In 1999, they were 35th. Here's who they were looking around at:
33. WV
34. Minn
35. CLEMSON
36. Va Tech
37. Stanford
.
and today, those same programs are:
WV - 23rd
Minn - 38th
CLEMSON - 17th
VT - 21st
Stan - 31st
.
WV +10 spots
Minn - 4
Clemson +18
VT +15
Stan +6
...................
Glancing at it, Clemson has moved up 2nd-most of any program since '99, trailing (I believe) only Oregon. The Ducks have moved up 25 spots (but are still only 36th now).
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and it would seem the Gophers have moved up since Fleck arrived
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You know, this does make some sense, given that the perception you outline is in fact a common one.
I still maintain, with plenty of supporting evidence, that Les Miles was a much, much better coach than he ever got credit for, even within--and maybe especially within--the LSU fanbase. And that Orgeron was not nearly as good as 2019 made people think he was, again, with supporting evidence.
But your point stands....if the last 3 coaches won titles there, it may be reasonable to expect the next guy could too.
Miles was certainly good at LSU, but outside of LSU he was 28-21 at Okie State and 3-18 at Kansas. Not exactly hall of fame numbers. Brian Kelly is a hell of a proven coach who has won everywhere he has gone. If he can outperform what he did at Notre Dame compared to what Les Miles did at Okie State, then that is something.
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Clemson is 17th now, all-time.
In 1999, they were 35th. Here's who they were looking around at:
33. WV
34. Minn
35. CLEMSON
36. Va Tech
37. Stanford
.
and today, those same programs are:
WV - 23rd
Minn - 38th
CLEMSON - 17th
VT - 21st
Stan - 31st
.
WV +10 spots
Minn - 4
Clemson +18
VT +15
Stan +6
...................
Glancing at it, Clemson has moved up 2nd-most of any program since '99, trailing (I believe) only Oregon. The Ducks have moved up 25 spots (but are still only 36th now).
Very impressive. Are you finding these stats ready made, or are you compiling them manually.
I’d bet A&M lost 1-2 spots since ‘99.
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I use the stassen website.
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Miles was certainly good at LSU, but outside of LSU he was 28-21 at Okie State and 3-18 at Kansas. Not exactly hall of fame numbers. Brian Kelly is a hell of a proven coach who has won everywhere he has gone. If he can outperform what he did at Notre Dame compared to what Les Miles did at Okie State, then that is something.
I don't know how any HC can go from swimming in talent and then go to a place like KU and win there.
I'd posit that the exact same HC could win at the lesser program on his way up more easily than he could after he's tasted great success at a superior program.
.
That's what amazed me most about what Spurrier did at Carolina. It made sense that he did well at Duke, THEN did even better at Florida. But it really surprised me that he found success at a lower program afterwards.
.
Basically, it's hard to go back to cheeseburgers, once you've enjoyed steak.
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football is about execution
technique, footwork, fundamentals help with execution
learning and understanding how to execute a play with the proper timing
it's called development
a 3 star athlete can out execute a 4-star and the play can be more successful
coaching is coaching
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I think ND folks have outsized expectations unlikely to be delivered, by any coach. They seem like a 10-2 kind of program, 9-3 and 11-1 on occasion. And 12-1 at LSU means playoff, probably, and 11-1 at ND means nice bowl game.
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ND is like most other helmet programs.
With the right coach, they could go undefeated and get in the playoff
it hasn't been that many years since it happened
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Miles was certainly good at LSU, but outside of LSU he was 28-21 at Okie State and 3-18 at Kansas. Not exactly hall of fame numbers. Brian Kelly is a hell of a proven coach who has won everywhere he has gone. If he can outperform what he did at Notre Dame compared to what Les Miles did at Okie State, then that is something.
Okie State has obvious limitations, even though Gundy has surpassed what Miles was able to do there. Still, he arguably was only able to build on Miles' tenure who definitely elevated them from where they were. Kansas was an utter cluster**** on a level that most people don't understand. They had roster problems that I've never even heard of....short-handed roster and had somehow used some loophole I'd previously never heard whereby they effectively had mortgaged future schollys....they were hamstrung bad. Not saying he did great there, but that place was a wreck.
Doesn't matter. I'm a big believer in "fit" when it comes to coaching. Just because Bill Snyder is a legendary coach at KSU doesn't mean he would've been all-time great at Alabama. Just because Pete Carroll was awesome at USC doesn't mean he'd be awesome at Baylor. Les Miles and LSU just fit together, in a variety of ways. For a while, anyway.
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Dantonio at Michigan State comes to mind. They seemed to work well together, though I'm not sure he would've had the same success at a school of significantly different optics than MSU.
Harbaugh would probably be Harbaugh at a few more schools than just Michigan--I can see his schtick working elsewhere (as it did at Stanford)--but there are also places I think he'd be a very poor fit and it just wouldn't work. Like, put Harbaugh at Oklahoma State and they won't have the same success they've gotten to with Gundy.
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To what extent is "fit" a factor in coaching success? I don't know. Is hiring an alum part of having "fit"? Kelly hardly seems like much of a fit at LSU, but he could well have coaching success. Is Saban a fit at Alabama? How about Riley? Or Fickell?
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To what extent is "fit" a factor in coaching success? I don't know. Is hiring an alum part of having "fit"? Kelly hardly seems like much of a fit at LSU, but he could well have coaching success. Is Saban a fit at Alabama? How about Riley? Or Fickell?
A big part, imo.
Being an alumni probably doesn't mean much, imo. Our best coach in history is a bona fide Michigan Man. Orgeron went to LSU (for about a week before transferring out) and while everybody wanted him to be a "fit"....maybe he was, but he couldn't coach worth a damn so it doesn't matter. But you can be a good coach in the wrong spot and not be as successful. Obviously I'm referring to more than just school resources. However, there may be a decent-size list of places a coach fits....it doesn't just have to be luck that they wind up somewhere doing well, or poorly.
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it's certainly strange
Rhule, who grew up in NYC, might be a better fit at UNL than Frost, who grew up in Wood River, NE
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I think "fit" might be judged by winning percentage and little else.
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not always
Scott Frost was obviously a good fit at UNL
winning percentage be damned
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The Huskers on Thanksgiving 1922 and The Four Horsemen of Notre Dame
https://history.nebraska.gov/the-huskers-on-thanksgiving-1922-and-the-four-horsemen-of-notre-dame/?fbclid=IwAR0eegbDC-H7ayem8sCKl5bpYezJKdEO4SL3ZOfXz1rQXM0CuOjRdyNy2tI (https://history.nebraska.gov/the-huskers-on-thanksgiving-1922-and-the-four-horsemen-of-notre-dame/?fbclid=IwAR0eegbDC-H7ayem8sCKl5bpYezJKdEO4SL3ZOfXz1rQXM0CuOjRdyNy2tI)
It was the final game of the season. Notre Dame came to Lincoln to face Nebraska in front of 16,000 fans who found unusual places to watch the game (see the photos below). It would also be the final time Nebraska would play on Nebraska Field as Memorial Stadium would be constructed the following year. The Fighting Irish showcased a roster which included Harry Stuhldreher, Don Miller, Jim Crowley, and Elmer Layden, who would later be known as the Four Horsemen of Notre Dame in coming years. Head Coach Knute Rockne and Notre Dame entered the game undefeated, posting five shutouts that season. Nebraska had one loss on their record and played the Thanksgiving Day game with heavy emotions.
Team trainer Jack Best, who was 77, was carried wrapped in blankets from his office in Grant Hall to a taxi to Nebraska Field. With his health failing, he was then carried into the Nebraska locker room before the game. Best told the players that this game would be the last one he would see and that he wanted a win. Tears were on the players’ faces as they emerged onto the field and Nebraska used that emotion to take the quick lead. The Cornhuskers slashed Notre Dame with big plays and went up 14-0 in the first half. The Fighting Irish would get 6 in the second half with other opportunities to score, but they could not overcome the Nebraska defense. Best got his wish as the Cornhuskers capped off the 1922 season with a 14-6 win against what would become one of the most iconic teams in college football history.
This was the first of only two losses the Four Horsemen would experience in their entire college football careers. The second loss was to Nebraska in 1923.
(https://web.archive.org/web/20120713095441im_/http://blog.nebraskahistory.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/RG2758-734.jpg)
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UGA has never lost to ND, just sayin' ...
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Huskers lead the all-time series 8-7-1 and have scoreboard, winning the last 3.
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.
Basically, it's hard to go back to cheeseburgers, once you've enjoyed steak.
Juicy Lucy says hello
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https://youtu.be/yEVBHDT6XII
Obama ate there!
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I'd imagine some of us here have mused about coaching somewhere. Would you rather be HC at LSU or ND? Expectations about the same, salary about the same, headaches probably less at ND with players ...
I'd go with LSU, I think expectations are more manageable vis a vis the capabilities and talent available.
ND is to me akin to that woman in a dark bar late at night who kinda looks pretty nice but really is 48 years old.
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I've been to South Bend and the campus - getting cold and snowy this time of the season
Never been to Baton Rouge - too many reptiles and insects
I'd rather coach in Austin, TX - lots of recruits, lots of money, expectations have been lowered
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lulz
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Never been to Baton Rouge - too many reptiles and insects
Right, but if you stay away from the capitol building then you don't really have to deal with those.
zing!
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Right, but if you stay away from the capitol building then you don't really have to deal with those.
zing!
The snow globe encased head of Huey Long is not amused.
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(https://i.imgur.com/FPmuO7c.jpg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/FPmuO7c.jpg)
I loved that one when I first saw it after the election.
I have friends that were stunned that he didn't win. I could only shake my head and say "He NEVER wins."
Anyway, I voted neither for him nor the guy from the other party. Blech.
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Not a ton of difference between them, honestly, other than rhetoric.
If Texas really wanted to go a different direction it likely had its chance with West in the primary. His criticisms of Abbot were pretty valid, I thought.
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good, politics is sure to kill this thread!
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Not a ton of difference between them, honestly, other than rhetoric.
If Texas really wanted to go a different direction it likely had its chance with West in the primary. His criticisms of Abbot were pretty valid, I thought.
Texas clearly doesn't want to go in a different direction. It is what it is.
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The snow globe encased head of Huey Long is not amused.
A Yuengling(or a Shiner's Holiday Cheer) for remembering Huey - he was for the Peoples
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https://youtu.be/yEVBHDT6XII
Obama ate there!
Obama can eat me - the fraud
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Jucy Lucy at Matt's Bar is delicious.
Don't know and don't care who else might have eaten there at one time or another.
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good, politics is sure to kill this thread!
Just because a thread doesn't allow you to pot-stir UT doesn't mean it's a bad thread.
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We had lunch at Farm Burger again, pretty solid.
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I had gringo tacos from Torchy's. Tasty.
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Back to ND ... as noted, they still recruit pretty well generally, but I think no longer does every player at Cincy Moeller dream of playing for them. I think they have lost their uniqueness in large degree. Elite players may have them on their long list, but the competition is severe, and they can't compete at the highest levels, I think, in recruiting. And they don't have a CG. At 12-0, they get in, at 11-1 they'd get in after next year anyway.
I think their shot at a NC is not much better than Wisconsin's. Kelly saw that limit, I suspect. They might win one NC in the next 40 years. MIGHT.
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damn it, Cincy
This thread was ready to die