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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2022, 09:44:56 AM

Title: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 20, 2022, 09:44:56 AM
AXE week is here. Lots of hate. Lots of disdain. Lots on the line.

Goophs had a chance at West this season and shit the bed. That is so Gooph.

The worst Wisconsin team in a LONG time. Like 2001 or so. Maybe 2008.

Senior day. Rough season to say the least. Lots of motivation. And playing against this clown...

(https://i.imgur.com/jyjdmAy.png)
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 21, 2022, 09:44:16 AM
Badgers open as 2.5 favorites. I'm kinda surprised by that. I thought Minnie would be the favorites here.
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: Temp430 on November 21, 2022, 09:49:47 AM
Minnesota is back to running the ball well again.  Should be a good game.
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: Benthere2 on November 21, 2022, 12:44:32 PM
if Wisconsin doesn't have a play where the TE runs straight down the field, it should by next Saturday.  this has been open for every team playing against the gophers all year
they will be tough defensively against most other plays but that one gets a big chunk every time someone runs it
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: GopherRock on November 22, 2022, 10:46:08 AM
Badgers open as 2.5 favorites. I'm kinda surprised by that. I thought Minnie would be the favorites here.
I saw 9.5 at first and would have pounded the starch out of that. 

This will actually be a major test of PJ's coaching acumen. This Gopher team blew their load down the stretch last week vs. Iowa. PJ has a hard sales job convincing his charges to act like they want to be there.

I see one of two eventualities: the Gophers win a tight, ugly one or get wiped TF out. I've seen a lot of ugly Gopher outings at the Camp to know that the latter is a distinct possiblity.
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 22, 2022, 11:05:46 AM

(https://i.imgur.com/jyjdmAy.png)


What is wrong with his pants??  

How can you row a boat with that attire?
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: SFBadger96 on November 22, 2022, 12:09:38 PM
Badgers appealing the targeting suspension against Herbig, hoping to get him for the full game rather than just the second half.

Watched that play (and others involving Thompson running the ball): suspending a player for even the half he was playing, let alone a second half, is hard to stomach. Surely that play isn't the reason that rule exists. On on the flip side, by the letter of the law, that player was "defenseless" and Herbig made contact (though not sharp contact) with his head. I've seen quarterbacks take advantage of the suspicion that they were about to run out of bounds, and I don't think Thompson was doing to take advantage of the rules there, but the defending player is in an awfully tough spot regardless.

I doubt the suspension gets lifted (although for a star player in a championship/bowl game, I bet it would be), but the rule needs to be reconsidered, and a little discretion needs to be added in.

Not having their best defender for a half is a big deal in this upcoming game. 
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 22, 2022, 12:14:31 PM
Badgers appealing the targeting suspension against Herbig, hoping to get him for the full game rather than just the second half.

Watched that play (and others involving Thompson running the ball): suspending a player for even the half he was playing, let alone a second half, is hard to stomach. Surely that play isn't the reason that rule exists. On on the flip side, by the letter of the law, that player was "defenseless" and Herbig made contact (though not sharp contact) with his head. I've seen quarterbacks take advantage of the suspicion that they were about to run out of bounds, and I don't think Thompson was doing to take advantage of the rules there, but the defending player is in an awfully tough spot regardless.

I doubt the suspension gets lifted (although for a star player in a championship/bowl game, I bet it would be), but the rule needs to be reconsidered, and a little discretion needs to be added in.

Not having their best defender for a half is a big deal in this upcoming game.
He tried to avoid the contact. Hopefully that is worth something.
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: MikeDeTiger on November 22, 2022, 12:14:50 PM
The last time I checked targeting in the official description, it was so mercurial that it effectively means "Whatever we say it is at the time."  

That rule is not nearly as black and white as broadcasters want us to believe.  
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 22, 2022, 01:07:02 PM
Love the Axe game, one of my absolute favorite trophies in the sport.  

As I see it, this should be quite a close game.  This is slightly outdated as it is not updated for this weeks rankings but here are their results in B1G games:
(https://i.imgur.com/OmZJHps.png)
They are both 4-4.  

Minnesota lost to the four best teams they played.  Only the Iowa loss was close and even that is just because Iowa can't score.  They beat the four worst teams they played.  Only the Nebraska win was close.  The thing is that after MSU's loss to IU I think UW is squarely in between the four bad teams that Minnesota has defeated and the four good teams that Minnesota lost to.  

Wisconsin lost to four of the five best teams they played and beat Purdue because they just never lose to Purdue.  The loss to MSU is inexplicable but it was in OT and on the road so I guess "crap happens".  They beat the three worst teams they played but that one point win over Nebraska is hardly inspiring.  Same thing here, it looks like MN is between the good teams that UW lost to and the bad teams that UW beat.  

Common opponents:


Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: SFBadger96 on November 22, 2022, 04:02:39 PM
Yeah, I think the H2H doesn't look great for the Badgers. But at home should help. We'll just have to see how the Badgers' O-line looks.
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: SFBadger96 on November 22, 2022, 04:27:38 PM
Herbig's appeal denied. Will sit the first half. That's a big bonus for Minnesota, and a correspondingly huge loss for the Badgers.
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: FearlessF on November 22, 2022, 06:04:04 PM

herbig's case never had a chance, during the game or in the appeal.

the rule says nothing about intent or how forceful the impact
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: SFBadger96 on November 22, 2022, 06:38:52 PM
The rule says:
ARTICLE 4. No player shall target and make forcible contact to the head or neck area of a defenseless opponent with the helmet, forearm, hand, fist, elbow or shoulder. This foul requires that there be at least one indicator of targeting. When in question, it is a foul. ...

Note 1: "Targeting" means that a player takes aim at an opponent for purposes of attacking with forcible contact that goes beyond making a legal tackle or a legal block or playing the ball.  Some indications of targeting (emphasis NCAA's) include but are not limited to:

Note 2: Defenseless player (Rule 2-27-14). When in question, a player is defenseless. Examples of defenseless players include but are not limited to:


Italics are mine (except where noted).

Forcible contact certainly implies a force requirement as well as an intent requirement. "[T]hat goes beyond making a legal tackle" incorporates intent. And "obviously given himself up" also incorporates intent.

So...

(1) Was Herbig's hit "forcible contact?"
(2) Did Herbig "take aim" "attacking" "beyond making a legal tackle?"
(3) Did Herbig lead with his shoulder "to attack with forcible contact at the head or neck area?"
(4) When Herbig started his tackle, had Thompson already "obviously given himself up?"

I agree that the appeal was always likely to lose, but not because it wasn't a legit appeal under the ambiguities of the rule.


Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: FearlessF on November 22, 2022, 06:55:12 PM
one indicator - Leading with shoulder to attack with forcible contact at the head

Obvious hit to the head with the shoulder pad.  Forcible?  from what I've seen since this rule was written, there doesn't need to be much force.  The helmet did move back from the impact. 

It was also obvious that the QB was sliding and going to the ground.  Especially at the time of impact of the hit.

_________________________________________________ ________________

IMO, it wasn't a real hard hit, but I assumed it would be called from past rulings.
I'd like for there to be a hard impact or show of intent to eject a player.
I don't like the rule the way it's written.  I'd be ok with the 15 yard penalty and first down, but I think ejecting the player in this instance is unnecessary.

I just feel that the way the rule is written and the way it has been enforced all season, there was VERY little chance of the appeal being successful  
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 23, 2022, 10:00:02 AM
There was targeting on the second two-point attempt, against Mertz. Helmet-to-helmet.

Not called.
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: FearlessF on November 23, 2022, 10:43:15 AM
there's no excuse to miss those calls, there's supposedly a guy in the booth that can check for those on reply
Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: ELA on November 23, 2022, 03:00:53 PM

Minnesota Golden Gophers (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin Badgers (4-4, 6-5)
3:30 - Madison, WI - ESPN
We were so close to this game being so much more than pride.  If Minnesota and Nebraska had been able to finish last week, this would be the Gophers playing for potentially a Big Ten West title, against a Wisconsin team playing for bowl eligibility.  Instead Minnesota is eliminated from contention for Indy, and Wisconsin is already bowl eligible.  There is plenty of pride on the line since Minnesota has won 2 of the last 4, since ending Wisconsin's 14 year domination of the series.  Now Minnesota seeks their first retention of the Axe since 1994, which was also in Madison.  They've only won once in Camp Randall since.  The Over/Under on this one is 34.5, which seems way too low to me.  Yes, Minnesota and Iowa combined for just 23 points last week, and Wisconsin and Nebraska for just 29, but I think the underlying numbers suggest those scores probably should have been higher.  The Gophers gave away at least 10 points with costly turnovers, and Mo Ibrahim ran at will.  If you have one player go for 260+ yards, putting up just 10 points feels like a fluke.  Wisconsin's run defense has started to play better recently, but they've been exposed at times this year.  You would think becoming as one dimensional as Minnesota has been since Tanner Morgan went out would make them easier to defend, but that certainly hasn't held true the past two weeks, with Ibrahim running for 441 yards and 4 touchdowns (his first and third highest rushing totals of the season) without Morgan.  But even with that, it wasn't enough against Iowa, because Athan Kaliakmanis has been a complete non-factor passing the ball.  He has been 14-28 for 151 yards, no touchdowns, and 1 interception in his two starts.  There were rumors than Graham Mertz wasn't even making the trip to Lincoln last week.  He did, and took every snap, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing.  Mertz has failed to complete even 50% of his passes in three consecutive games, and has only thrown for over 175 yards once in his past 5 games.  This one should be ugly, and if Morgan is back and healthy, I'll give the Gophers the edge.  But assuming he's not, I'll take the home team in a coin flip rivalry game.
WISCONSIN 23, MINNESOTA 21

Title: Re: Minnesota (7-4, 4-4) at Wisconsin (6-5, 4-4) Game Week.
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 23, 2022, 03:16:11 PM
That's a fair assessment.

Not having Herbig in the first half is HUGE for Minnesota though.
Title: Re: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: FearlessF on November 23, 2022, 09:40:24 PM
didn't seem to help Nebraska in the 4th quarter last week
Title: Re: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: GopherRock on November 23, 2022, 11:24:37 PM
If Mertz can get the ball to his TE he's going to have a huge night. 
Title: Re: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 24, 2022, 06:49:37 AM
UW's pass catching TE's have been out for the season for two months.
Title: Re: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: Benthere2 on November 24, 2022, 09:51:50 PM
UW's pass catching TE's have been out for the season for two months.
does not have to be a pass catching TE they will be open and if the QB can get them the ball somewhere close they will get big big plays
i have seen OL catch wide open balls, if they just believe they will get big plays with their TE's
Title: Re: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 26, 2022, 02:18:06 PM
No Tanner Morgan.

Sounds like Braelon Allen might not play, but the good news is, unlike last season, is that the Badgers have other healthy options. Last year they had nothing, and Allen was beat up.
Title: Re: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 26, 2022, 03:28:05 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/321WfC2.png)
Title: Re: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: bayareabadger on November 26, 2022, 10:46:36 PM
That was unpleasant and I hated it. 
Title: Re: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: FearlessF on November 26, 2022, 11:17:35 PM
so, the interim tag might not change to permanent ?
Title: Re: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: MarqHusker on November 26, 2022, 11:19:40 PM
My childhood Badger friends are screaming at each other in disagreement on this.
Title: Re: Minnesota (4-4, 7-4) at Wisconsin (4-4, 6-5) Axe Week
Post by: Benthere2 on November 27, 2022, 11:18:14 AM
Gophers might have found the QB they have needed to go with a pretty good defense 
now need to fill in holes at RB and some OL