CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Mdot21 on October 24, 2022, 12:03:03 PM
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right now looks like it's pretty much a two man race and that's it- Tennessee's QB Hendon Hooker and Ohio State's QB CJ Stroud. Bama QB Bryce Young could possibly get back in this thing, but he's missed too much time and has that L to Tennessee. Right now Hooker has to be the leader in the club house with that statement W and Heisman moment vs Bama, but Stroud will have his opportunities to catapult to #1 with games @Penn State and home vs Michigan. Can't see anyone else winning it beyond those 3 at this point, and Bryce is kind of a long shot- he will have to go nuts down the stretch and the other two will have to fall apart for him to win it.
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I would think Duggan is going to see some advocacy of his consideration.
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Is this a try out for that Nissan commercial?
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Why not a UM RB if he goes off vs OSU and no one else is a clear favorite?
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Why not a UM RB if he goes off vs OSU and no one else is a clear favorite?
Nah. RB isn't winning the award. Corum would have to put up stupid #'s the rest of the way + go absolutely nuclear vs OSU to even have a sniff of a shot- and I don't think that's going to happen bc Edwards is finally healthy and he's going to be taking away a lot of the carries going forward imo. Corum was only getting so many carries lately because Edwards was out. Edwards is back healthy and they're going be getting him more and more involved every week.
Think it's Hooker's to lose at this point, but CJ is still right there.
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Who cares about the Heisman. This is the Big Ten. The Ray Guy is the real trophy
https://twitter.com/JaredDLee/status/1597682196953042945?s=20&t=3xvX1c0VTJRUi4A9vaJ6xw
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So is the USC QB now the expected winner?
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Yeah, he'd get my vote barring a meltdown.
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Max Duggan, TCU
very similar stats to Hooker
passer rating nearly the same as Hooker and better than Caleb Williams.
if he has a good game saturday and gets the win, he'll be the undefeated QB
unfortunately, Big 12 perception and mostly TCU perception
if he had done this at Texas or Oklahoma, he'd be mentioned
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yup looks like it's Caleb Williams to lose. Long as he doesn't crap the bed vs Utah, he's winning it.
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Stroud, Hooker, and Duggan have better stats
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Stroud, Hooker, and Duggan have better stats
Hooker got blown out vs South Carolina and clowned vs Georgia and missed the last game of the year with injury. He's out imo.
Duggan plays for TCU- hard to imagine them giving the Heisman to a guy from TCU unless there is no one else or the guy is just amazing like RGIII was that year at Baylor. Duggan pretty good- but he's not that level good.
Stroud might have a shot if Williams really craps the bed vs Utah and 'SC loses and he's just terrible. I think it comes down to those two guys. It's Caleb Williams' to lose- but Stroud could backdoor his way into a Heisman if Caleb really just falls flat on his face.
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I gave up on the hypesman years ago
it's sad that Stroud won't win because his team dropped a late season game to the #2 team on their home field when Stroud goes 31-48, 349 YDS, 2 TD
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Well one thing's for sure: the best player is definitely not a lineman or defender. Obviously.
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Well one thing's for sure: the best player is definitely not a lineman or defender. Obviously.
this is a really good point. kinda bs it's never gone to an OL and that it's only ever gone to one defender.
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Well one thing's for sure: the best player is definitely not a lineman or defender. Obviously.
Is there a lineman or defender you'd suggest this year?
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UGA TE Bowers (or a TE you'd rank ahead of him)
OSU WR Harrison Jr
UF G Torrence
ILL CB Witherspoon
NW T Skoronski
That LB on Old Dominion that has 50 more tackles than anyone else in the country
Tuipolotu from USC
Hell, give it to Will Anderson, because he deserved it last year.
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There are ALWAYS worthy linemen and defenders EVERY YEAR for the Heisman.
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this is a really good point. kinda bs it's never gone to an OL and that it's only ever gone to one defender.
kinda??
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Is there a lineman or defender you'd suggest this year?
Jalen Carter at UGA is really good, but was out injured much of the year. When healthy, he's outstanding, but won't get more than a 3P vote. I'm sure there are others, some LBs probably who should get a sniff.
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I’m saying Iowa’s punter should get a serious nod. They might not have won more than 3 games this year without him.
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he's not even first team Big Ten
as Afro knows, since he lead the NCAA in attempts, his average averaged out.
the Spartan had an unfair advantage - not nearly as many attempts
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None of the top 10 punters in number-of-punts volume are in the top 10 of yards-per-punt average.
There is a reason.
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poor MFers wear out the ol leg
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When you're at the end of the bell curve, there's only one direction to go.
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So... Duggan have a chance now, with a big showing tomorrow?
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if I had a ballot?
yes
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I think it's back up in the air almost totally. I do credit the USC QB for gutting it out.
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I don't think Duggan has a chance, but he should
playing in the Big 12 and especially TCU hurt his chances
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My suspicion is most votes were cast before last night, so still Caleb Williams.
He was a warrior last night- almost unstoppable before the injury- and some amazing plays after too.
He would get my vote.
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A decade ago many votes were cast before the CCG weekend. These days I'm not so sure.
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no clear front-runner this season, hopefully not as many votes cast yet
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four QB's all invited to the ceremony as finalists.... CJ Stroud, Stetson Bennett, Max Duggan, and Caleb Williams. Screaming hot take here: I say give it to Bennett.
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https://twitter.com/dayneyoung/status/1599929960222707712?s=20&t=LC8i9i2znGYbg0bBBuVoeQ
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four QB's all invited to the ceremony as finalists.... CJ Stroud, Stetson Bennett, Max Duggan, and Caleb Williams. Screaming hot take here: I say give it to Bennett.
If ever there was a year for a defender to win, this would've been a stellar one.
But man, there are no good candidates.
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If ever there was a year for a defender to win, this would've been a stellar one.
But man, there are no good candidates.
Yeah, the media failed to connect the public to any particular defender. It's not like individual defenders as a whole were worse this year than any other year.
Reminder of last year:
media focuses on Hutchinson, who winds up finishing 2nd.
Hutchinson: 62 tackles, 16.5 TFL, 14 sacks
W.Anderson: 101 tackles, 31.0 TFL, 17.5 sacks
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I guess there was no fun narratives this year, to highlight someone having a lesser season?
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It's almost too bad they don't have two Heisman's for O and D, but I know they have other awards for such things, without quite as much oomph.
The best defensive player, really, could be a guy with little by way of statistical numbers but who made everyone around him better.
The best offensive player could be the same, some OL dude.
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It's almost too bad they don't have two Heisman's for O and D, but I know they have other awards for such things, without quite as much oomph.
The best defensive player, really, could be a guy with little by way of statistical numbers but who made everyone around him better.
The best offensive player could be the same, some OL dude.
would be cool to see a dominant OL win the Heisman one of these days. If Orlando Pace didn't win it that year he had in '96, an OL ain't ever gonna win it. Ditto for DL with Hugh Green at Pitt or Suh at Nebraska.
Heisman has morphed into same thing as the NFL MVP- let's just give it to the best QB on the best team.
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Punk Desmond shot his mouth off last year.Cardale getting a word in
(https://twitter.com/CJ1two)
https://twitter.com/CJ1two/status/1599980843925004288?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1599980843925004288%7Ctwgr%5Ec14d5240cbce050f3b539
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ESPN on the 1997 Heisman controversy. Fat Phil Fulmer still mad Peyton didn't win it. Peyton kinda choked in the big games that year. Woodson just made insane plays in the big games. Bigger the moment, bigger he played that year. Both were obviously incredible all-time great players in not only college but the NFL. That might've been the best finalist class ever with Randy Moss and Ryan Leaf as well. Sure, Leaf was an NFL bust but he was the leading passer in college that year and he had ridiculous arm strength and size, meanwhile Peyton, CWood, and Moss all 1st ballot NFL HOF'ers and honestly just generational players.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35181627/peyton-manning-charles-woodson-heisman-title-conspiracies
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Maybe they should have some years with none and some with two ... ha ha.
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It's not a difficult fix, the Heisman people simply need to change the description of who the Heisman goes to. No big deal.
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QB or RB on a top ten team with several really flashy highlights plays on Sportscenter ... and some good raw numbers.
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Always goes to a hot player on a hot team, even though the criteria is something along the lines of "most outstanding player in cfb."
I haven't watch all the teams, but from what I did see this year, if I had a vote I'd give it to Texas' Bijan Robinson. Killer vision and instinct, and just an overall unstoppable force. I can't think of anyone who did their job better than he did his in context of what players had around them to work with.
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Always goes to a hot player on a hot team, even though the criteria is something along the lines of "most outstanding player in cfb."
I haven't watch all the teams, but from what I did see this year, if I had a vote I'd give it to Texas' Bijan Robinson. Killer vision and instinct, and just an overall unstoppable force. I can't think of anyone who did their job better than he did his in context of what players had around them to work with.
Bijan would be a great choice. As good as Blake was, Bijan would've went well over 2k running behind Michigan's line.
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Horns and Sooners will get more consideration after moving to the SEC SEC
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Yeah, the media failed to connect the public to any particular defender. It's not like individual defenders as a whole were worse this year than any other year.
Reminder of last year:
media focuses on Hutchinson, who winds up finishing 2nd.
Hutchinson: 62 tackles, 16.5 TFL, 14 sacks
W.Anderson: 101 tackles, 31.0 TFL, 17.5 sacks
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I guess there was no fun narratives this year, to highlight someone having a lesser season?
So my thought is you’re going to need to hit a couple different spots.
-you need some kind of eye-popping numbers
-you need to be doing it as part of a good defense
-you need to be part of a team that matters in some way (say you lead a historically moribund program to nine or 10 wins, or you have a good team that absolutely puts the fear of God into a national power. Or you’re just a big part of a playoff contender)
-you need some film moments. Some plays on tape that just make people say, oh damn
There just really isn’t any defender that checks the majority of those boxes, unless I’m missing someone. That is of course to be a contender. Actually with it, you need some less interesting quarterback and running back options at the top.
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He was the best player on a CFP team, that didn't have a QB that was a legit contender. It's that simple. Same as Woodson, or Te'o, or Peppers. You have to be on a great team, that doesn't have a great skill position player
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They're all kind of popularity contests. I don't mean that the choices are bad ones, just that they're usually overly obvious.
Take something like the Thorpe Award. In 2019 the best DB was the OSU kid, Okudah or something like that, I think his name was. I thought it was more of an objective fact than an opinion. LSU's Delpit wins it because they're a buzzword team that year. Was Delpit a bad choice? Eh, I mean, for like a lifetime achievement award, okay fine, but he was injured for half of '19 and missed some games and played like crap for a few games where he was still recovering. I'd have nothing to say if he won it in 2018, but in 2019 Okudah clearly had a better season and was the better player.
But don't mind me. I'm just bitter because Troy Smith is still holding Jamarcus Russell's heisman.
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But don't mind me. I'm just bitter because Troy Smith is still holding Jamarcus Russell's heisman.
Reggie Bush had to give Vince Young's Heisman back, so there's at least a little justice there. I'd much rather Vince have won the trophy that he DID get, than the one that ESPN gifted to Bush. And, VY says the exact same thing.
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All they have to do is change the wording....
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Another WTF awarded trophy was the Unitas 'Golden Arm' going to Tony Rice. Now, their description isn't passing-numbers or strong-arm related, but the name of it is. Rice won it in a year he threw for 2 TD and 9 INT the year after ND's NC.
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It's just funny. I know it doesn't matter.
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I really don't care who wins of course, but I find it interesting how often the winner fails to consumate later with the NC.
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But don't mind me. I'm just bitter because Troy Smith is still holding Jamarcus Russell's heisman.
That's okay because Jamarcus robbed the Raiders.Ask him which he'd rather have
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My ex was seriously entranced with things like "The Oscars" and wanted to see every movie nomination so she could form her on opinions. (I was OK seeing movies that looked to be decent, most were not.) She would watch the show and I'd hear here cheer or grunt depending on who won, it was serious business for her. Fortunately, she went her way many years ago and neither I nor my kids have any idea where she is now.
We have so many human annointed "awards", and maybe some mean something really, most as noted as some kind of contorted popularity contest voted on by "experts". This of course aligns with my disdain of "lists" of "top 100 X in the US".
Malarkey. Balderdash. All this is on my own list of the top 100 silliest things over which to get annoyed. Or thrilled.
Unless you win something that has some intrinsic value. Like a participation trophy for 8 years old in soccer.
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I don't really have any problem with a group or industry recognizing whoever they feel to be the best, for whatever achievements they deem worthy. I don't necessarily have to care about it, but if they do, then good for them.
In high school I competed in One-Act play competition, and our drama department was always quite good, we always won District and continued on to Area or even Region. But one year, we made it all the way to State. And along the way, I won a couple of "Best Actor" awards, which I was happy and proud to receive. But our play did not win State, and I would have given back every Best Actor award I got in all 4 years of drama competition, for our ensemble play to have won State.
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My ex was seriously entranced with things like "The Oscars" and wanted to see every movie nomination so she could form her on opinions. (I was OK seeing movies that looked to be decent, most were not.) She would watch the show and I'd hear here cheer or grunt depending on who won, it was serious business for her. Fortunately, she went her way many years ago and neither I nor my kids have any idea where she is now.
We have so many human annointed "awards", and maybe some mean something really, most as noted as some kind of contorted popularity contest voted on by "experts". This of course aligns with my disdain of "lists" of "top 100 X in the US".
Malarkey. Balderdash. All this is on my own list of the top 100 silliest things over which to get annoyed. Or thrilled.
Unless you win something that has some intrinsic value. Like a participation trophy for 8 years old in soccer.
There are a lot of symbolic things, ceremonies, rituals, etc. that I used to crap on in a very reductive way.
I started listening to Jordan Peterson a few years ago and a few other people I found through him, and I don't think 100% the same way anymore. Now I think there is value and a point to a lot of the "doesn't really matter" things that people like me tend to naturally poo-poo.
I don't know that the Heisman or the Oscars is one of them. But it's not nothing when some sort of collective of individuals decide to revere something.
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When I moved into my wife's house, I had to go through 30 years of boxed up stuff in my basement. There were a lot of boxes. Two held a bunch of HS trophies I had won back, well, in HS. I realized I had not looked at them since I had packed them when I first moved into that house. Somewhat wistfully, they went into the garbage. I have not had any use for them since of course. I recall I had a Sport Illustrated with Herschel on the cover from 1980 that I sort of wish I had retained.
I got some fairly impressive looking plaque in the mail after I retired from my company, I have not yet thrown it out, mostly because I don't know where it is. I have a diploma cert on my wall here, I guess I will keep that.
My daughter moved from C-bus to Vancouver and fit everything she wanted in her modest sized SUV and drove. I know she had a bunch of soccer trophies, they probably were trashed years earlier. I sort of think "we" should go through out stuff every five years and clean it out, most of it.
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Horns and Sooners will get more consideration after moving to the SEC SEC
Horns would get more consideration if they were winning more games. If Texas is 12-1 or 13-0 this year in the B12, then Bijan is a Heisman favorite. The conference has nothing to do with it. At least, not for Texas and OU.
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There are a lot of symbolic things, ceremonies, rituals, etc. that I used to crap on in a very reductive way.
I started listening to Jordan Peterson a few years ago
Oh dear god....
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I knew you believed in God
and Bijan would get more face time on ESPN if he was in the SEC
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Oh dear god....
So you're a Brown's fan too
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and Bijan would get more face time on ESPN if he was in the SEC
Nah, ESPN loves the Horns too. Ask any of our rivals how much the mediots love to talk us up.
Our problem is purely a W/L one.
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Bijan would be in my top 3.
Bijan, Stroud and Hooker
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Nah, ESPN loves the Horns too. Ask any of our rivals how much the mediots love to talk us up.
Our problem is purely a W/L one.
your rivals have skewed and twisted minds
cultists in Collie Station and Lubbuttock
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your rivals have skewed and twisted minds
cultists in Collie Station and Lubbuttock
You dumped them, you don't get to be jealous
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ESPN on the 1997 Heisman controversy. Fat Phil Fulmer still mad Peyton didn't win it. Peyton kinda choked in the big games that year. Woodson just made insane plays in the big games. Bigger the moment, bigger he played that year. Both were obviously incredible all-time great players in not only college but the NFL. That might've been the best finalist class ever with Randy Moss and Ryan Leaf as well. Sure, Leaf was an NFL bust but he was the leading passer in college that year and he had ridiculous arm strength and size, meanwhile Peyton, CWood, and Moss all 1st ballot NFL HOF'ers and honestly just generational players.
https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/35181627/peyton-manning-charles-woodson-heisman-title-conspiracies
One loss to # 3 Florida on the road is choked in the big game(s)? Tough crowd.
In that one loss at the Swamp:
(https://i.imgur.com/DIihYLo.png)
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Look at the numbers and tell me Manning deserved to win anything over Cade McNown that season
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Look at the numbers and tell me Manning deserved to win anything over Cade McNown that season
Alrighty. Good season by Cade. Lost the first 2 games of 1997, then won out. 1st Loss at Wazzou (Leaf). 2nd Loss at home to Tenn (Manning). Seems like an easy choice to me.
(https://i.imgur.com/bV9OHHU.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2OlElJO.png)
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So it's entirely based on a team loss in the 2nd week of September?
McNown wins on completion percentage, YPA, TD;INT ratio, and passer rating.
All Manning has him on his total passing yards, and solely because he attempted nearly 150% more passes
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Alrighty. Good season by Cade. Lost the first 2 games of 1997, then won out. 1st Loss at Wazzou (Leaf). 2nd Loss at home to Tenn (Manning). Seems like an easy choice to me.
(https://i.imgur.com/bV9OHHU.png)
You could make the argument that Manning never improved in college. More passes, same rating.
He always threw for a ton of yards vs Florida, and took the L. In '97, he threw an 89-yard pick-6 to go down 2 scores. Vols always played catch-up vs the Gators with Manning.
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Also, Tennessee beat Vandy by only 7, then won the SECCG by 1 point. He sort of limped to the finish line and the career achievement thing didn't pan out.
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So it's entirely based on a team loss in the 2nd week of September?
McNown wins on completion percentage, YPA, TD;INT ratio, and passer rating.
All Manning has him on his total passing yards, and solely because he attempted nearly 150% more passes
And TD passes. Better record.
But, hey man, if you want to argue for Cade McNown (for some odd reason totally of left field), do your thing.
Was he even invited to the ceremony? I know the 2 QB's that gave him L's were there.
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You could make the argument that Manning never improved in college. More passes, same rating.
He always threw for a ton of yards vs Florida, and took the L. In '97, he threw an 89-yard pick-6 to go down 2 scores. Vols always played catch-up vs the Gators with Manning.
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Also, Tennessee beat Vandy by only 7, then won the SECCG by 1 point. He sort of limped to the finish line and the career achievement thing didn't pan out.
Never improved in college? LOL.
One of the very best to ever don a uniform -- wasn't much room for improvement. ;)
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And TD passes. Better record.
But, hey man, if you want to argue for Cade McNown (for some odd reason totally of left field), do your thing.
Was he even invited to the ceremony? I know the 2 QB's that gave him L's were there.
I mean he was a Power 5 QB with better numbers across the board.
And yeah, we gave undeserving pitchers Cy Youngs back then due to Wins too
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I mean he was a Power 5 QB with better numbers across the board.
And yeah, we gave undeserving pitchers Cy Youngs back then due to Wins too
We've already established that is false, but...
Be mad, I guess.
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Mad about what? That Manning didn't win, but deserved to not win even more? I'll be good
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Mad about what? That Manning didn't win, but deserved to not win even more? I'll be good
ok, Cade.
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Never improved in college? LOL.
One of the very best to ever don a uniform -- wasn't much room for improvement. ;)
His rating was virtually the same all 4 years and he never had a 150+ rating. For as all-time great as he was, why wasn't he better?
QBs with better rating in 1997:
Thad Busby, Aaron Brooks, Joe Germaine, Mike Bobo, Brock Huard
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Plus, did the Vols suffer when Manning left? Ha! No, they won the NC.
Manning is one of the most overrated college football players of all time. Did he have a special/great football mind? Sure. Did he have a ton of pressure on him? Of course.
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But if he was that great, he'd have played better.
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The best pro-Manning argument vs McNown is the fact Peyton threw 150 more passes. That's about it.
His argument is volume only.
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Hendon Hooker = Dennis Dixon
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Caleb Williams in a landslide.
Duggan 2nd.
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if the award is suppose to be for best player in cfb, think Bijan or Marv should've won it this year.
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if the award is suppose to be for best player in cfb, think Bijan or Marv should've won it this year.
It isn't, it doesn't even claim it is.
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FjqWr94XEAAzXoL?format=jpg&name=900x900)
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these are the total defense rankings Williams went against...
Rice- 67th
Stanford- 112th
Fresno State- 39th
Oregon State- 31st
Arizona State- 106th
Washington State- 80th
Utah- 19th (L)
Arizona- 126th
California- 109th
Colorado- 130th
UCLA- 88th
Notre Dame- 22nd
Utah- 19th (L)
Lost twice to the only top 20 total D he faced (Utah) and put up only 17 pts on 3rd highest ranked D he faced- Oregon St. Won the Heisman feasting on god awful defenses and punking a for some weird reason overrated ND. Then vs Utah in the CCG with a chance at revenge and a playoff spot on the line he completely crumbles and pisses down his leg and sh*ts the bed and yet he still wins. Probably one of the weakest Heisman winners ever.
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"lost to"
Yeah, USC lost to Utah in October.
USC scored 42 points.
That's not a mark against him that his defense gave up 43.
Don't be misleading.
There's no need.
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"lost to"
Yeah, USC lost to Utah in October.
USC scored 42 points.
That's not a mark against him that his defense gave up 43.
Don't be misleading.
There's no need.
lost to TWICE. How many pts did he put up vs Utah when it actually mattered in the CCG?
Where was this kids "Heisman moment" vs a really good team/defense? Severely lacking. He won the Heisman for what? For beating a crappy Notre Dame team that struggled mightily to beat a craptastic Cal team at home and oh yeah lost two games at home to a Marshall team from the Sunbelt and 3-9 Stanford and only has more than 6 wins bc it gets to play a bunch of crappy ACC teams and service academies? Lol.
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Wow, you're really passionate about this. Weird.
Williams won the Heisman because he was a known guy before the season started, he threw for 4,000 yards, ran for 10 TDs, and had lots of great, athletic plays.
People aren't savvy when it comes to these things. They care less about how good a defense he faces and more about the overall team he's playing against. Yes, that's limited. Beating the #10 team with a shitty D impresses people more than beating the 25th-ranked team with a top 10 D.
Plus no one else MADE voters pick them. Corum got hurt. Hooker got hurt.
I don't understand the hate for Williams. He's as good a pick as any.
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I'd have voted for Duggan, as I noted, I think the character thing is more in his favor. But whatever.
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Ohh the pearl-clutching over the fingernails.
Amazing.
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Ohh the pearl-clutching over the fingernails.
Amazing.
Do you think Williams is a runaway top candidate?
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Do you think Williams is a runaway top candidate?
I don't understand the hate for Williams. He's as good a pick as any.
No. But no one else is, either. Thus my confusion.
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I'd have voted for Duggan, who apparently is as good a choice as any since there is no runaway obvious candidate.
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I'd have gone with Coleridge Bernard "C. J." Stroud IV
the best stats and a pretty good team
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I'd have voted for Duggan, who apparently is as good a choice as any since there is no runaway obvious candidate.
He IS as good as choice as any, which is why he was a runaway 2nd-place finisher. The other 2 were waaaay behind.
It'd be as weird for someone to freak out over your Duggan pick as it is to flip out about Williams winning it.
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Ohh the pearl-clutching over the fingernails.
Amazing.
Seems to me you were the one "freaking out" over my choice. Nobody here much seems to care who won, we just express our personal opinions, and NEARLY everyone seems to understand that.
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I barely watched Caleb Williams, thus I can't argue with the selection.
When I picked Bijan for my hypothetical vote, that was just out of the pool of guys I watched this year.
There's probably usually an offensive tackle or something out there somewhere that may be the actual most outstanding player in college football and I don't even know the name of the team he plays for.
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Seems to me you were the one "freaking out" over my choice. Nobody here much seems to care who won, we just express our personal opinions, and NEARLY everyone seems to understand that.
Do you have mdot21 blocked or something? lol