So the question is not are agents giving kids money, but are agents directing kids to certain schools... what relationships do they have? I think that is where a school could get in trouble.Well that's where schools themselves could be in trouble.
My mind is blown that Bill Self is nowhere to be found in any of this.He is, Josh Jackson. I mean he is as much as really no coach is, beyond was a player on their roster, or their parent, mentioned. This is all players/agents. I think most news outlets realize nothing is going to come of this other than player suspensions, and so really the only story in how it will impact teams is the Miles Bridges/Wendell Carter/Kevin Knox/Collin Sexton portion, those being the current big name players included.
The Cam Newton defense won't work anymore. The NCAA closed that loop hole last year.there never was a loophole, ncaa just turned blind eye and added unnecessary clause in bylaws. it was always anyone close to the recruit, and if coaches, family friends, and handlers could influence and count against a kid, with or without the kids knowledge, then his mom and dad damn sure could. ncaa just folded under pressure, and i don't blame au 1 bit for forcing that issue either.
As far as Hammons goes. Who cares? He's gone. So far I haven't read anything that makes me think anything is coming back on the schools. So if the only players you are worried about are gone, I can't imagine it mattering.Agreed. And honestly I would say that for most of the players implicated in the agent issues, it actually doesn't implicate the coaches or the program, unless the issues are so conspicuous and pervasive that you can point out the LOIC, as the NCAA did with the Reggie Bush stuff.
Sean Miller is donepaying players to play, like SMU paid Dickerson???
paying players to play, like SMU paid Dickerson???I find it hard to believe one runner, for one pretty low level agent brokered two (that we know of) $100,000 deals, and that's it.
burn them like SMU
Two B1G assistants now directly implicated in the agent runner emails. Stephens from MSU and Chuck Martin formerly of Indiana.As I posted last night, those emails actually make MSU and Indiana look good. He was shopping Bowen around to schools, in exchange for them trying to convince alums to sign with ASM. None of the targets did, and Bowen didn't go to either school
https://sports.yahoo.com/black-market-diaries-emails-hoops-corruption-case-detail-inner-workings-sports-underbelly-030605930.html (https://sports.yahoo.com/black-market-diaries-emails-hoops-corruption-case-detail-inner-workings-sports-underbelly-030605930.html)
Yahoo has insiders with the Feds other news agencies haven’t found yet. They are going to play this out piece by piece over the next 2-3 weeks.
I always assumed this was happening with some programs, but the details of the underbelly are fascinating. It boggles my mind that this was so blatantly documented and discussed in emails and phone calls of all things.
When you couple the Sean Miller details with the track and field abuse and Rich Rod investigation their athletic dept may be winning a hard fought race to the bottom among the Power 5’s.
As I posted last night, those emails actually make MSU and Indiana look good. He was shopping Bowen around to schools, in exchange for them trying to convince alums to sign with ASM. None of the targets did, and Bowen didn't go to either schoolThe question I have is this:
The question I have is this:I asked above though, because I don't know. Is that a violation? Tons of guys have handlers. If a handler tells a school he can deliver a kid if the school convinces an alum playing in the NBA to sign with a certain guy, what's the violation? I truly don't know
Did these assistants report these contacts to their athletic department? Did the athletic department report these things to the NCAA?
Now, I'm not sure that there is any sort of requirement that they do so. But you would think that if an agent is out shopping a specific player, an upstanding follow-the-rules athletic program signaling to the NCAA that not only are you not "buying", but also that the player in question maybe should be investigated, might be a good idea.
If you don't report MAJOR violations like this, one wonders what else you're not reporting--such as the violations you're willing to play ball with. Honor among theives, right?
I don’t know that good is the word that comes to mind for me.He's the son of the long time Saginaw HS coach. His family is Michigan basketball royalty. His brother died of a heart issue at an MSU basketball camp, and Izzo spent the night with his dad at the hospital.
It’s not concerning that one of the main guys caught up in this is categorized from the documents as:
“documents indicate that Dawkins spent considerable time in contact with the Bridges family and with Spartans assistant coach Dwayne Stephens.”
If the guy is proposing dirty business why not tell him to bug off? Why is an open line between the two being presented here.
I don’t see an Arizona like smoking gun, but this strong connectivity with this runner doesn’t smell right.
I need to stick with NCAA DIII fandom. Although, even that is losing some of its innocence lately.
I liked Dekker’s tweet. Spike Albrecht had a couple of goodies as well.
I asked above though, because I don't know. Is that a violation? Tons of guys have handlers. If a handler tells a school he can deliver a kid if the school convinces an alum playing in the NBA to sign with a certain guy, what's the violation? I truly don't knowAgain, I don't know if not reporting is a violation. Probably not.
I'm glad to know Bridges is playing tomorrow. I would just hope that the "facts" the NCAA reviewed were complete and thorough. If not, it could still come back to bite MSU.Yeah this doesn't mean anyone is in the clear, just resets the clock. They won't be punished for playing him now, absent new info.
How about a head coach on the phone about $100,000 to deliver a player? lolhead coach or assistant
Dickie V ragged on the dirtiness of coaching and college basketball last night.F Dookie V.
A few minutes following that he was hyping the Duke recruiting class next year with the 1,2, and 3 recruits in the country coming in. No recognition of the fact that A could be connected to B. Or that the constant promotion of B creates A.
Now that the dirty laundry is aired out over the next month, I am more interested in what the solutions are. And for the simple-minded that say pay the players, I would be more curious on the mechanics of how that works. men vs women, power 5 vs non, revenue vs non revenue sport. And if not paying players how do we fix and enforce the current environment?
I also imagine the Grateful Red will be ruthless, and I think when it comes to even a sniff of NCAA improprieties, those are fair game for opposing fans.It won't be your imagination. They will be more than their normal ruthless today.
Yahoo has snagged some well respected journalists. I am curious how they have monetized the work they do.
Same goes for The Athletic. That model is easier to understand however with direct membership.
Both have countered ESPN and Fox, with less videos and more detailed writing. Guys like Wetzel, Rosenthal, and others seem to get free reign to be real journalists. It’s refreshing.
Dickie V ragged on the dirtiness of coaching and college basketball last night.Or Bill Walton ranting about the cess pool of college basketball. Shocked nobody asked him how much he got from Sam Gilbert.
A few minutes following that he was hyping the Duke recruiting class next year with the 1,2, and 3 recruits in the country coming in. No recognition of the fact that A could be connected to B. Or that the constant promotion of B creates A.
Now that the dirty laundry is aired out over the next month, I am more interested in what the solutions are. And for the simple-minded that say pay the players, I would be more curious on the mechanics of how that works. men vs women, power 5 vs non, revenue vs non revenue sport. And if not paying players how do we fix and enforce the current environment?
It won't be your imagination. They will be more than their normal ruthless today.I think I would also prefer Wisconsin be a mediocre 9 seed NCAA team. Instead, they have no postseason, and they would love nothing more than to ruin this for MSU. Kind of like 2006 when OSU upset Illinois in the finale to ruin their undefeated season.
Fellow Arizona fans saying there must be more to the story of Miller trying to pay for play; saying it doesn't make sense for Miller to get busted so red handed only for Arizona AD, University Admin, & State Board of Regeants to fully back Miller yesterday.It seems like maybe there's nothing there yet.
Again, I don't know if not reporting is a violation. Probably not.Got it: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D118.pdf
Got it: http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D118.pdfWell everyone knew that Dawkins was handling his recruitment. That alone isn't a violation anymore than how Swanigan's was handled by Rosie. Obviously asking for money would be. Is it a violation to ask a school to ask a former player to sign with a specific agency in exchange for the player? If certainly *feels* dirty, but I'm not sure what the actual violation would be there. There's no benefit to the recruit, or anything I see jeopardizing his amateur status, even if any deal like that had been made. Let alone just pitched.
12.1.1.1.2 Institutional Responsibilities.
<snip>
12.1.1.1.2.2 Sharing Information and Reporting Discrepancies. If an institution receives additional information or otherwise has cause to believe that a prospective student-athlete’s amateur status has been jeopardized, the institution is responsible for promptly notifying the NCAA Eligibility Center of such information. Further, an institution is responsible for promptly reporting to the NCAA Eligibility Center all discrepancies in information related to a student-athlete’s amateurism certification. (Adopted: 4/30/07)
So there is a requirement that MSU or IU, if these contacts actually occurred, would have information that suggests that if Bowen is being represented by an agent [who is clearly suggesting he has the power to sway a decision] that Bowen's amateur status is jeopardized. By rule, they have a responsibility to report this to the NCAA.
Granted, I'll bet this is something that comes up quite a bit, and I'll bet it's something that athletic departments basically ignore.
But there is a rule. If these conversations have been proven to exist, and thus it is shown that the schools absolutely had this information, they are in violation if they didn't report it to the NCAA.
Izzo said in his post game that they determined no money at all ever went to Bridges' mom. Not sure how you prove or disprove a small amount like that, absent a deposit of exactly $400 the next day.I believe every school that's been implicated is giving the NCAA a middle finger and essentially saying: "This is so vast and widespread you have no prayer of punishing us individually at this point, so might as well go 'F' yourselves and have fun trying to come get us later."
The guy was fired for lying about $60,000 in made up expenses, so it wouldn't be surprising, but considering ever other amount was $1,000+, I assumed the one small one to Bridges mom was true.
I believe every school that's been implicated is giving the NCAA a middle finger and essentially saying: "This is so vast and widespread you have no prayer of punishing us individually at this point, so might as well go 'F' yourselves and have fun trying to come get us later."Well, I know MSU (and I assume the rest) declared their kid ineligible, then submitted the review to the NCAA to reinstate them, which the NCAA did. That's what the NCAA spokesman said the process was.
What's the NCAA going to do at this point, shut the whole season down?
Yes, I agree as to the first.True. There's a lot of weird stuff with Dawkins.
Not sure what you mean by the second though. I'm not sure it's clear he entered into any agreement with him. All of these kids have handlers now. Dawkins was his former AAU coach IIRC, and had been some sort of parental type figure in his life. I would think you would need evidence that Bowen knew he was shopping him like that. I don't see any evidence of that. In fact, I would say at least the $100,000 Louisville paid for him would have been a tangible benefit to Bowen, had he seen it, and IIRC the FBI cleared Bowen of any wrongdoing there, and said it was a payment to his father. This one sounds more like a small time runner trying to work his way up the chain by trying to use the high school connection he had to land an NBA player he probably couldn't even get a meeting with. And was using him to his own personal benefit. Remember this is a guy who lied on expenses, defrauded one of his NBA clients out of $42,000, and pretended to be the NCAA in a call to a then-HS aged Kyle Kuzma's family trying to convince him he was ineligible so that Kuzma would transfer to Dawkins' AAU team.
Here's a pretty comprehensive bio from Yahoo
https://sports.yahoo.com/meet-christian-dawkins-sloppy-reckless-prodigy-college-hoops-brink-213959726.html
"It's your profession. You learn to navigate in and around it," he said. "You have a decision to make and we've always just tried to understand who we could recruit and who we couldn’t recruit. That's the best way I can put it. If you think something might be happening, something improper, you try to go in the other direction. A lot of times it's hard — maybe there's not a lot of big guys or not a lot of point guards or things of that nature — but after a while you get to the point where you find the guys who want to be at Purdue and want to be at Purdue for the right reasons."He didn't say "someone shops a recruit to you, you let the NCAA know". He said you try to go in the other direction. Don't touch those guys with a 10 foot pole.
FWIW, with the college basketball shoe company scandal trials beginning today, for determining potential biases in jury selection a list of school that may come up during trial was given to jurors, no Big Ten schools on the list. So I guess that's nice.Quote from Steve Haney, attorney for Christian Dawkins:
Arizona, Louisville, NC State, Miami, LSU, Oregon, DePaul, Creighton, Texas, Oklahoma State, and USC were the schools on the list
I have a hard time finding older threads here. Maybe @Drew4UTk (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1) can point us to a secret search function?sshhhhssshhhssshhhhhhhh- this is a secret. it is very 'expensive' on databases/bandwidth, so i pulled it from access... it isn't so much people here using it but robots and guests from places like russia and the far east.... it has the capability to crash the site if too many folks use it, especially at once.
He also said that La Lumiere Academy (high profile and academically high regarded prep school here in Indiana that has recently become a national basketball powerhouse as well) paid them $2000 a for Junior to attend. This has long been suspected of La Lu.I believe at one point a couple years ago their entire starting five at had one point been the top rated player in their home state. Jaren Jackson (IN - went to MSU); Tugs Bowen (MI - went to Louisville, except didn't and was the reason this all exploded); Jordan Poole (WI - went to UM); Tyger Campbell (TN - will be a freshman at DePaul); and Jalen Coleman-Lands (IL - went to Illinois, has since transferred to DePaul)
My son is a pretty good basketball player and two years ago his AAU team suddenly had a new teammate for the Indy stop on the Adidas NYBL Circuit. This kid, who is from Indy and had been playing with Team Teague (one of the top Indiana AAU programs) up to that point that summer, showed up with a small group of handlers and was the best player in the gym for the whole weekend. At that time I had no doubt that our coach, who I had concluded by that point was a complete dirtbag, had paid for this kid to play with us.
Fast forward to the last couple of months: That same kid had spent the summer playing with Cathredral HS in their summer schedule. All of the sudden as school was about to start it was announced that he was enrolling at La Lu.
The news today about La Lu and my previous suspicions and experiences have completely confirmed what I previously had only strongly suspected.
He also said that La Lumiere Academy (high profile and academically high regarded prep school here in Indiana that has recently become a national basketball powerhouse as well) paid them $2000 a for Junior to attend. This has long been suspected of La Lu.Everybody's catching up to Gary Williams, who basically stopped recruiting by 2006 or 2007 because of his disgust and anger over AAU corruption and the willingness of many NCAA coaches to go along with it (unavoidable, really, but he was stubborn). He took a lot of heat when his recruiting fell off a cliff, until he eventually explained himself...
My son is a pretty good basketball player and two years ago his AAU team suddenly had a new teammate for the Indy stop on the Adidas NYBL Circuit. This kid, who is from Indy and had been playing with Team Teague (one of the top Indiana AAU programs) up to that point that summer, showed up with a small group of handlers and was the best player in the gym for the whole weekend. At that time I had no doubt that our coach, who I had concluded by that point was a complete dirtbag, had paid for this kid to play with us.
Fast forward to the last couple of months: That same kid had spent the summer playing with Cathredral HS in their summer schedule. All of the sudden as school was about to start it was announced that he was enrolling at La Lu.
The news today about La Lu and my previous suspicions and experiences have completely confirmed what I previously had only strongly suspected.
the schools will claim no knowledge and the NCAA will not want to hurt the blue bloods of basketball. They'll create new rules for this in the future, but the past will be excused. jmoagreed, unless i'm reading this wrong, they're saying they conspired together to conceal payments from schools/ncaa, so the schools "shouldn't" have known much. i'm not sure i buy that, though. but i do think the schools have enough wiggle room to get out of it.
Isn't that Tai Streets' gig? I think they might be in a little trouble.. but there is a thread for that.Delany pointed out the problem it is. He said when he worked in NCAA compliance the issue was boosters, and it was easier to police because ultimately the boosters didn't want their programs to get slapped with probation. This is different, it's agents and shoe companies, often working through the AAU programs, and they couldn't care less about the NCAA programs, or what happens to them. Hell, the biggest problem with this FBI case for the NCAA is that the defendants are opening admitting to all of the NCAA violations (because they have nothing to lose there) in arguing that they didn't break any actual laws. When those payments from the agent were leaked last February, wasn't it like a dozen players at a dozen different schools? It's not like he was working on behalf of a school. So they are essentially trying to police something where the guys they are trying to police are in no way impacted by their punishments. And with the one and done, the players really aren't either.
And Cleveland State.What am I missing here besides Dawkins father being an assistant here? Are their ties to CSU paying players?
What am I missing here besides Dawkins father being an assistant here? Are their ties to CSU paying players?Jerry Tarkanian:
If law school taught me anything (and it did), and specifically amateur sports law, it was the NCAA is amongst the most arbitrary and ridiculous organizations on earth (IOC a close second).It's been a long time since my paycheck was in any way related, but you know I can't just let this pass too easily. :)
| Louisville receives notice of inquiry from NCAA (https://theathletic.com/917410/2019/04/10/louisville-receives-notice-of-inquiry-from-ncaa/?source=dailyemail) |
| The University of Louisville received a verbal notice of inquiry from the NCAA in early March, a school spokesman confirmed to The Athletic in an email on Wednesday. The verbal notice is an initial step in the NCAA’s expected investigation of the basketball program. It is part of the NCAA’s larger inquiry into the allegations revealed in the FBI’s sweeping college basketball corruption case now playing out in federal court. Arizona and Kansas are also reportedly under investigation. An official written notice of inquiry from the NCAA typically follows. (https://theathletic.com/917410/2019/04/10/louisville-receives-notice-of-inquiry-from-ncaa/?source=dailyemail) |
I think UW and UM are clean too, as is MSU (but they might have another major problem now...).Yikes. (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/26489699/msu-student-reported-rape-reveals-identity) That may not quite approach Baylor-level yet, but it's not very far behind.
So besides Louisville, KU and Arizona...... who else is on the NCAA's list of targets? Not that I expect a lot to happen, but just curious...L8U
So besides Louisville, KU and Arizona...... who else is on the NCAA's list of targets? Not that I expect a lot to happen, but just curious...Unsure... I suspect it will come largely from some of the names of players that guys like Dawkins testified that he paid their families. That was Bowen (UL), DeSouza (KS), Ayton (AZ), and a few others, but I'm not sure what schools.
I wonder how long until Bruce Pearl has Auburn in trouble.Not long. Auburn AD requested a meeting with him to discuss issues and BP toid him GFY. They have suspended one assistant and a former assistant, Chuck Person has plead guilty to a bribery charge related to the investigation.
He's a good coach who likes to cheat. Always has been. I don't feel sorry for any school that hires him.Fits right in with Pat Dye's Pay-for Play system at Auburn. They found out with $cam Newton all they had to do was lawyer-up and the NCAA would go away. Remains to be seen if they get away with that with the FBI involvement.
Kansas and NCSU have just been named. Maryland is being questioned in regard to the Kansas investigation.Those are mid-2018 stories.
https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2018/4/10/17221558/fbi-college-basketball-corruption-scandal-new-details-kansas-nc-state (https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2018/4/10/17221558/fbi-college-basketball-corruption-scandal-new-details-kansas-nc-state)
https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2018/7/6/17540666/fbi-investigation-college-basketball-maryland-kansas (https://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2018/7/6/17540666/fbi-investigation-college-basketball-maryland-kansas)
Those are mid-2018 stories.Ooops.
Every time it gets worse for Arizona they bury themselves deeper in the strategy of holding out until the attention takes a day or so to move on elsewhere. It’s a purely political strategy, the same default political strategy Virginia’s governor uses to stay governor in light of his yearbook, Penn State got their bowl ban lifted early because of it, and Smollett and Weinstein are hoping to get back into screen work once the public moves on. But holding out doesn’t always work - Baltimore’s mayor finally had to resign today.I get it as it relates to the public...
nah, in sec that's just s.o.p.:57:
if you ain't cheatin', ya ain't tryin'. it just means more, sec, sec, blah blah blah. something like that.
https://sports.yahoo.com/sources-kansas-basketball-charged-with-multiple-level-1-violations-including-lack-of-institutional-control-210015300.html
Only a matter of time before UNC, Dook, Kentucky and the rest are exposed.
Bill Self just going full TarkYeah, and now Kansas AD Jeff Long has come out and apologized for Snoop Dogg’s Performance which included a stripper pole and uncut lyrics with profanity.
https://twitter.com/KUAthletics/status/1177661601467572230?s=19
Yeah, and now Kansas AD Jeff Long has come out and apologized for Snoop Dogg’s Performance which included a stripper pole and uncut lyrics with profanity.And literally had money guns to shoot fake bills into the audience. Spare us the apology, I kind of liked the cajones to just lean into it.