CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: ELA on July 11, 2022, 10:17:08 AM
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The resumes:
2002 Kansas State (11-2)
- Lost by 4 at Colorado and by 3 to #8 Texas in October
- Beat #21 Iowa State 58-7
- 27-20 win over #11 USC was their only regular season win by less than 34 points. Average score in other 9 wins was 53-6, including 3 shutouts, and 7 times holding opponent to 10 points or less
- All-Americans: CB Terence Newman (unanimous)
2009 Florida (13-1)
- Loss to Alabama in SEC Championship Game ended 22 game win streak
- Lone win over ranked team was 13-3 over #4 LSU in Baton Rouge
- Beat #4 Cincinnati in Sugar Bowl
- Held 6 opponents to single digits
- All-Americans: CB Joe Haden (unanimous), TE Aaron Hernandez (consensus), OC Maurkice Pouncey (consensus), OG Mike Pouncey, LB Brandon Spikes
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that's a tough one
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2009 Florida is really hard to judge because of a set of oddities that all work together:
- Their OOC was weak because FSU was mediocre (7-6).
- This was a strange year in the SEC: Only Florida and Bama (both 8-0) finished above 5-3) while only Vandy (0-8) finished below 3-5. The other nine teams all finished within a game of .500 in the league.
- Florida's bowl opponent was non-P5.
- Florida lost badly (32-13) in the SECCG but it was to NC Bama.
Thus, despite playing in the SEC and only having one loss, the 2009 Gators have very little in the way of quality wins.
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KSU OOC: Western Ky, La-Monroe, Eastern Ill.
7-6 FSU doesn't look so bad now.
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KSU lost twice including to unranked CU (eventually #20).
Florida lost once, to the NC.
@medinabuckeye1 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1547), your post kind of suggest you're holding Florida to a higher standard, no?
Poo-poo the OOC schedule, but KSU's was easily worse.
Florida's bowl opponent was G5, but it was also undefeated and ranked 4th, lol.
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KSU lost to the team that finished a game ahead of it in its own division. Don't get me wrong, their point diff was great, and that's what happens when you curb-stomp a bunch of hot garbage. SP+ must love them!
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But what we have here is simply the 2008 champs minus Percy Harvin vs a 2-loss Big 12 team. I recall their top teams not faring too well vs the SEC. It's too bad KSU didn't get a chance at OU that year, but they didn't earn that chance, so....
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@OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) ,
I get what you are saying.
I honestly cane to this thread expecting to vote for UF as an obvious thing.
Then I read @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) 's post and only saw one win over a ranked opponent and that surprised me.
I looked deeper and even that wasn't actually as impressive as it looked in the OP. UF beat then 5-0 and #4 LSU but LSU went 4-4 starting with UF and finished #17.
It was just a strange year for UF so their schedule wasn't what it normally is.
Against the nine SEC teams that finished between 3-5 and 5-3 the Gators:
- Won at LSU by 10
- Won at home over TN by 10
- Beat UGA in the WLOCP by 24
- Won at home over Arkansas by 3
- Won at UK by 34
- Won at USCe by 10
- Won at MsSt by 10
That isn't all that impressive and you and I have roughly the same view of Cincy.
What is 2009 UF's signature win?
KSU has warts too, I haven't explored all of that. I just was surprised that this wasn't an easy call.
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Wins vs teams in the final polls (you could convince me to use pre-bowl rankings as well)
UF
No. 8 (12-1 mid-major)
17 (9-4 SEC)
Other winning record opponents: Troy (9-4), FSU (7-6), Arkansas (8-5), UGA (8-5) UT (7-6), UK (7-6), SC (7-6). Top-10 offense and defense and generally dominant (six of 14 games within 10, only four with UF not winning by 10 or more) EDITED BECAUSE I AM DUMB
KSU
No. 4 (11-2 Pac-10)
Other winning record opponents: OkSU (8-5). Top-10 offense and defense and generally dominant (four of 13 games within 10).
Yeah, I might have found that KSU team more fun for a range of reasons and the strengthening of the middle of the SEC is maybe a tad overstated, but that UF team was much better.
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Wins vs teams in the final polls (you could convince me to use pre-bowl rankings as well)
UF
No. 8 (12-1 mid-major)
17 (9-4 SEC)
20 (9-4 SEC)
Probably doesn't make a big difference but #20 was Ole Miss. Florida didn't play Ole Miss is 2009, they played MsSt. Their three SEC-W crossovers were LSU, Arkansas, and the aforementioned Mississippi State.
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KSU arguably had better wins. But they also CLEARLY had the worse loss, and two of them. They both racked up a bunch of bad wins. Florida over mediocre SEC team, KSU by a ton over bottoming Big XII teams. I voted Florida, simply because they had one extremely forgiveable loss, but off the top of my head, I would have guessed they were a contender to win this, and I don't actually think they are
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I'm the lone vote for KSU
still ok with that vote
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KSU has a better team that should qualify for this tournament.
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Probably doesn't make a big difference but #20 was Ole Miss. Florida didn't play Ole Miss is 2009, they played MsSt. Their three SEC-W crossovers were LSU, Arkansas, and the aforementioned Mississippi State.
Actually, I disagree. Another 9-4 SEC west team isn't the bee's knees, but it's a chip as a No. 3 win.
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KSU has a better team that should qualify for this tournament.
Probably shouldn't have lost in an Alamo Bowl to a mediocre Purdue team
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I doubt a non-'major' bowl game outside of one or two Holiday Bowls has been more discussed/debated more than that Purdue v KSU Alamo Bowl.
That would be a good thread.
tOSU v Clem, Gator '78
BYU v SMU Holiday '80
BYU v Mich Holiday '84
all come to mind.
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Yeah, Florida's SEC slate wasn't as hard as usual, but again, that's sort of holding them to a higher standard.
If the roles were reversed and KSU had only lost to the eventual NC and Florida hadn't even won its division and had an extra loss, my only argument would be talent level or something. It would look foolish.
But KSU is KSU and one of their best team seasons is being compared to a non-NC Florida team that was 1 game away from possibly repeating as NC.
KSU had Darren Sproles. Cool. Florida had 2.
KSU couldn't pass for shit.
One could make the argument that Florida sort of sleep-walked through its schedule, as aside from the LSU game, there were a lack of big-time opponents, and Florida vs Alabama in Atlanta seemed inevitable.
If I went with the "if they actually played" idea, I think it would be a lopsided game. But I don't need to do that.
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If I went with the "if they actually played" idea, I think it would be a lopsided game. But I don't need to do that.
I know we've questioned the accuracy of some of those historical S&P+ rankings, but it would be Florida -15
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For these, I just imagine if they played 10 times, who would win more games? KSU could obviously win, but I think its all about likelihood. Like I know 97 UF could've beaten 91 FSU a few times out of 10, but not 5 or more. So I had to vote FSU.
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KSU had Darren Sproles. Cool. Florida had 2.
Meant to come back to that. It's very silly.
(This led me down the rabbit hole that they actually kinda could pass the next year, which is actually somewhat wild to think about)
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Sproles: 246 touches for 1564 yards (6.4 per)
Demps & Rainey: 206 touches for 1533 yds (7.4 per)
Lower volume, but more efficient.
Tiny, fast guys - all.
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stats are fine, but I'd take Sproles
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I voted Florida, simply because they had one extremely forgiveable loss, but off the top of my head, I would have guessed they were a contender to win this, and I don't actually think they are
This is pretty much where I am.
I think that 2009 UF would beat 2002 KSU, but that 2009 UF team is surprisingly unimpressive for a 13-1 SEC team whose only loss was to the eventual NC in the SECCG.
Off the top of my head I'd have assumed that a 13-1 UF team would have an impressive list of quality wins but instead all that 2009 UF has is:
- Bowl win over final #8 by 27, but it was G5 Cincy so some of us, including @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) and I are going to discount it.
- Road win over final #17 by 10.
- No other wins over teams that finished ranked.
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Was the Alamo #2 in the Big XII bowl order at the time (the 98 team that lost to A&M in the B12CG)?
Plus Purdue had some schmuck named Drew Brees starting at QB. I wonder how he turned out.
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Was the Alamo #2 in the Big XII bowl order at the time (the 98 team that lost to A&M in the B12CG)?
Plus Purdue had some schmuck named Drew Brees starting at QB. I wonder how he turned out.
No, Texas A&M went to the Sugar, because the Fiesta was the NC game
#2 was the Cotton Bowl, who opted for Texas
#3 was the Holiday Bowl, who took Nebraska
Alamo was Big Ten #4 vs. Big XII #4. Purdue finished 4th in the Big Ten. The Big Ten got a second BCS team (Wisconsin went to the Rose, OSU to the Sugar); but the Outback leapfrogged Purdue to take 5th place Penn State. Based purely on merit, it would have been Penn State vs. Nebraska, which would have gotten quite a few eyeballs for an Alamo Bowl
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Also, the voting here is closed, but I can't lock topics so go vote on Jim Harbaugh vs. Nick Saban
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that's a close one ;)
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This is pretty much where I am.
I think that 2009 UF would beat 2002 KSU, but that 2009 UF team's schedule is surprisingly unimpressive for a 13-1 SEC team whose only loss was to the eventual NC in the SECCG.
Off the top of my head I'd have assumed that a 13-1 UF team would have an impressive list of quality wins but instead all that 2009 UF has is:
- Bowl win over final #8 by 27, but it was G5 Cincy so some of us, including @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) and I are going to discount it.
- Road win over final #17 by 10.
- No other wins over teams that finished ranked.
You forgot the word 'schedule' in there. A team can be great with a less-than-difficult schedule. But then we don't know how good they really are. We know 09 Florida had Tebow, the midget RBs, Hernandez, the OL, Spikes, Haden, etc.....basically 08 minus Harvin. That's probably why they easily went 12-0 and trounced Cincinnati in the Sugar.
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You forgot the word 'schedule' in there. A team can be great with a less-than-difficult schedule. But then we don't know how good they really are. We know 09 Florida had Tebow, the midget RBs, Hernandez, the OL, Spikes, Haden, etc.....basically 08 minus Harvin. That's probably why they easily went 12-0 and trounced Cincinnati in the Sugar.
And we've come full circle.
I started out by stating that 2009 UF "is really hard to judge". They only have the one loss and it was to the NC so it is highly forgivable but at the same time they have a surprising lack of quality wins so, we don't really know how good they are.