CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Kris60 on April 13, 2022, 08:01:14 PM
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I’ve been scoring games for my daughter’s middle school softball team this season. Wanted to get some input on judging a hit vs. an error. We’ve had a couple of instances where a kid misjudges a fly ball, not misplays it, misjudges it. For example, a kid comes in on a fly ball too far and it goes over her head. I score that a hit.
An error in judgment isn’t an error in the scorebook, at least to me.
If they set up under it, and just miss it I score that an error. My wife thinks both should be errors. Keep in my mind, my daughter is the pitcher. So, I have scored a few hits against her that made me want to beat my head against the wall, but they are hits, imo.
Any advice?
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My advice is to simply ask would the average player have caught the ball
to me misjudgements dont determine hit or error as long as it wasnt caused by something like the sun or a heavy wind
if you think about it almost all error are caused by misjudgement
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I think the standard is the same, even if they don't touch it. If they could have caught it with ordinary effort, it's an error
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I could be wrong, but I always thought the rule of thumb was that you had to touch it to get an error. So even drastic misplays went down as hits.
Middle school is probably the age where you start being a little less nice. (The stats don’t really matter, but you also don’t just want to give everyone a hit for putting the ball in play) are you the coach too? If not, the coach might have strong feelings one way or the other.
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I'd rule it an error but then that is open to the scorer's interpretation - so slippery slope.So consistency in calls is important,specially balls/strikes. Check the manual may be different for sandlot/hot stove than the higher levels
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I think the standard is the same, even if they don't touch it. If they could have caught it with ordinary effort, it's an error
That’s a tricky one. We have a kid who has given poor effort on 2 or 3 balls this year and I’ve scored them hits. It’s almost like she thinks if she can’t get to it she can’t mess it up.
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I could be wrong, but I always thought the rule of thumb was that you had to touch it to get an error. So even drastic misplays went down as hits.
Middle school is probably the age where you start being a little less nice. (The stats don’t really matter, but you also don’t just want to give everyone a hit for putting the ball in play) are you the coach too? If not, the coach might have strong feelings one way or the other.
That’s my rule of thumb too. If they don’t touch it I don’t score it an error. Not the coach. My wife is the assistant. And yeah, stats matter to parents even in middle school. We use an app called Gamechanger. All the parents can create an account, be allowed to follow our team, and view all the stats.
No one has ever asked me about anything I’ve scored but I know of instances where parents got hot at who was scoring. In fact, our local HS team quit scoring on GC because parents were throwing a fit on how some plays were being scored. All of their scoring and stats are kept in a book.
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I could be wrong, but I always thought the rule of thumb was that you had to touch it to get an error. So even drastic misplays went down as hits.
Yes, this is wrong. A shortstop letting the ball go through their legs isn't a hit.
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It’s almost like she thinks if she can’t get to it she can’t mess it up.
Ah, the Derek Jeter defense....
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Yes, this is wrong. A shortstop letting the ball go through their legs isn't a hit.
No, you’re right, and I have and would score that an error.
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Ah, the Derek Jeter defense....
Pasta Diving Jeter. It's a dish and defensive rubbish.
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Ordinary effort would be the correct standard. Having said that it is in the judgment of the scorer and I need the film to opine. That of course gets tricky as misjudgements such as a poor line on a fly ball almost never get scored as an error.
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Ah, the Derek Jeter defense....
Pasta Diving Jeter. It's a dish and defensive rubbish.
What did jeter do....or not?
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Yes, this is wrong. A shortstop letting the ball go through their legs isn't a hit.
M’bad there. Thanks for the correction.
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There is a collegiate softballer out here named Dream Weaver. No joke.
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What did jeter do....or not?
Jeter has fanboys/girls who think he's the bestest evah count da ringz! One of the staples of a Yankees broadcast is Michael Kay or John Sterling call of a ground ball up the middle or in the 5 1/2 hole followed by "sharp grounder passed a diving Jeter.' Turns out Jeter's range isn't all that great as various metrics would illustrate. Pasta Diving Jeter become a bit of a dig on the Cap'n.
Jetes couldn't get to these balls but don't tell that to the fans.
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Ordinary effort also applies for the infield fly rule. A good rule of thumb is that if an infielder has to turn around to make the catch, or if it's a line drive, it's no longer ordinary effort.
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Ordinary effort also applies for the infield fly rule. A good rule of thumb is that if an infielder has to turn around to make the catch, or if it's a line drive, it's no longer ordinary effort.
i've never liked the infield fly rule. i get why it's there, but i don't like rewarding a team for not cheesing the system. the point is to protect the offensive team from being cheated. but we do so by giving the defense a free out, regardless of if they complete the play. i'd rather reward the offense if the defense cheeses. treat it similar to a balk or something. free base for hitter/runners for trying to game system. make the d try to make them play. and i know this would try to be gamed too, but the consequences are much more severe. and it's a judgement call anyway, so do you want to risk it?
it's been a long time since i've played or cared all that much for baseball, so maybe i'm missing some nuance there. but i never liked it when i played.
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i've never liked the infield fly rule. i get why it's there, but i don't like rewarding a team for not cheesing the system. the point is to protect the offensive team from being cheated. but we do so by giving the defense a free out, regardless of if they complete the play. i'd rather reward the offense if the defense cheeses. treat it similar to a balk or something. free base for hitter/runners for trying to game system. make the d try to make them play. and i know this would try to be gamed too, but the consequences are much more severe. and it's a judgement call anyway, so do you want to risk it?
it's been a long time since i've played or cared all that much for baseball, so maybe i'm missing some nuance there. but i never liked it when i played.
It's already a free out though. Either you catch it, or you don't and you throw at least one, if not two guys, out. I guess you could say you can't get a double play out of it? But it would be almost impossible not to get at least one out
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It's tough on the baserunners without the InFR.
I guess you have to hold up, which makes a double play almost certain.
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It's tough on the baserunners without the InFR.
I guess you have to hold up, which makes a double play almost certain.
That was my thought, you signal that you can't get a double play out of it? The one out is a lock. I guess it then gives quick thinking infielders the choice of who they want to remove from the basepaths
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Speaking of scoring, we also use the Gamechanger app, it's amazing.
But even with the app, I'm the only one of the 5 coaches on our staff who knows how to score a baseball game. I actually had to explain what a FC was. We are 3rd grade, so there aren't errors yet.
I credit that with my dad coaching, and keeping me as his scorekeeper growing up, and playing this game for hours, scoring it on an actual scorebook.
(https://i.imgur.com/vJzaRJU.jpg)
I even used my baseball almanac to attempt to create current baseball players (1994) on the backs of the dials
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That was my thought, you signal that you can't get a double play out of it? The one out is a lock. I guess it then gives quick thinking infielders the choice of who they want to remove from the basepaths
under the inFR there is no force even if ball is dropped. So no chance to select a runner to put out
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under the inFR there is no force even if ball is dropped. So no chance to select a runner to put out
No, I know. We are discussing the rationale for getting rid of it. My only thought was that a modified infield fly rule where you can't get a double play, out of it, but it at least allows the fielder to punish the batter for it, by picking which runner to eliminate
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No, I know. We are discussing the rationale for getting rid of it. My only thought was that a modified infield fly rule where you can't get a double play, out of it, but it at least allows the fielder to punish the batter for it, by picking which runner to eliminate
ok sorry
I actually saw The astros 2nd baseman do that last year
course there was only a runner on 1st base so no inFR in force
the runner on 1st was much faster then the batter who hit a high pop up and Altuve let it drop and then threw the runner out at 2nd base
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ok sorry
I actually saw The astros 2nd baseman do that last year
course there was only a runner on 1st base so no inFR in force
the runner on 1st was much faster then the batter who hit a high pop up and Altuve let it drop and then threw the runner out at 2nd base
Ian Kinsler was great at it
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Most hilarious instance of IF fly rule in history of baseball.
https://youtu.be/aq2va-MIWpw
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The InFR could be changed, yes, such that only one out is possible, by rule, and runners could hold, and fielders could select which runner is out.
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It's already a free out though. Either you catch it, or you don't and you throw at least one, if not two guys, out. I guess you could say you can't get a double play out of it? But it would be almost impossible not to get at least one out
almost impossible is not impossible. it's improbable, but errors are made every game.
as for the offense getting 1/2 out on it, tough luck. maybe don't hit it straight up.
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We run into this in fantasy camp a few times each season, and of course back when I played a bit more seriously. It helps if the umpire calls it early and loudly, which is not always possible. Without this rule, pros could turn two nearly every time it happened.
Of course, they also have weakly hit line drives they can trap and turn two without its being called.
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Most hilarious instance of IF fly rule in history of baseball.
https://youtu.be/aq2va-MIWpw
Man, Miller is so, so good.
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Miller calls this so well, but for me the highlight is inner circle HOFer and Expos manager Frank Robinson marching out to the field with a death glare at his own players and basically Jedi waves them back to their positions without so much as noticing the Umpires.
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And the worst use of it
https://youtu.be/X-6ujbLknUc
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almost impossible is not impossible. it's improbable, but errors are made every game.
as for the offense getting 1/2 out on it, tough luck. maybe don't hit it straight up.
You would need to both drop the pop up and make a bad throw to not get an out out of it.
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And the worst use of it
https://youtu.be/X-6ujbLknUc
ump made a bad call
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And the worst use of it
https://youtu.be/X-6ujbLknUc
There is no way an umpire positioned in the outfield should EVER call an INF. Not his call. I would be like a Referee calling encroachment in a football game.
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I remember that play. There was obviously no way the infielder could have intentionally muffed the ball and turned to get a double play. Umps make bad calls.
I was playing second base, which is an odd position for me, in fantasy league and someone hit a low pop over my head. I'm sure any competent young infielder could have made the play, it was maybe 20 feet over me, I turned to run and couldn't twist back while running enough to spot the ball. I stuck my glove out in case the ball actually landed in it, the ball of course dropped ten feet away from me. The CF was charging in as well and I didn't want a collision. Meh, it's not an old man's sport.
I did make the routine plays at least. Those hot tricky grounders I recall playing when younger don't happen much. Major league infielders are amazing to me. It's fun to watch the retired pros play, they are often 50+ and can still play remarkably well. And you are toast if you face a pitcher who is under 40, no chance.
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The thing about inFR is just because an infielder makes the catch does not mean its automatically an infield fly rule call and just because an outfielder makes the catch does not automatically mean its not an infield rules call
the main requirement is that the fly ball land in or close to the infield
in that video it just wasnt close enough to the infield
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You would need to both drop the pop up and make a bad throw to not get an out out of it.
we just saw 2 videos of this not being the case. albeit one was an atrocious call, lol.
but yes, you'd have to screw up pretty bad to not get an out. but it happens. i don't like just giving them one because it's routine and they should make it 100%. but they won't ever make it 100%, so leave that 1% to chance, imo.
it's like calling a routine grounder to second an out before he makes the stop and throw. he's gonna have to make multiple mistakes to not get an out. but don't just give it to him cause it's easy. hell, with a man on 1st it'd benefit the offense to do so. but it's just wrong, imo, to give players that. make them make the play. that's why they're there.
jmo, and it's not important. they aren't gonna change it and i don't really care all that much about baseball anymore anyway.
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I remember explaining balk rules to my son when he was 12 and had to hold runners on.
I showed him a neat move to second which he used and the umpire called it a balk. to second. You see that move often on TV, it's not a balk.
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I remember explaining balk rules to my son when he was 12 and had to hold runners on.
I showed him a neat move to second which he used and the umpire called it a balk. to second. You see that move often on TV, it's not a balk.
Balk Rules
- You can't just be up there and just doin' a balk like that.
1a. A balk is when you
1b. Okay well listen. A balk is when you balk the
1c. Let me start over
1c-a. The pitcher is not allowed to do a motion to the, uh, batter, that prohibits the batter from doing, you know, just trying to hit the ball. You can't do that.
1c-b. Once the pitcher is in the stretch, he can't be over here and say to the runner, like, "I'm gonna get ya! I'm gonna tag you out! You better watch your butt!" and then just be like he didn't even do that.
1c-b(1). Like, if you're about to pitch and then don't pitch, you have to still pitch. You cannot not pitch. Does that make any sense?
1c-b(2). You gotta be, throwing motion of the ball, and then, until you just throw it.
1c-b(2)-a. Okay, well, you can have the ball up here, like this, but then there's the balk you gotta think about.
1c-b(2)-b. Fairuza Balk hasn't been in any movies in forever. I hope she wasn't typecast as that racist lady in American History X.
1c-b(2)-b(i). Oh wait, she was in The Waterboy too! That would be even worse.
1c-b(2)-b(ii). "get in mah bellah" -- Adam Water, "The Waterboy." Haha, classic...
1c-b(3). Okay seriously though. A balk is when the pitcher makes a movement that, as determined by, when you do a move involving the baseball and field of
2) Do not do a balk please.
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Remember 1990 or so when there was clearly some umpire edict on balking and suddenly there were balk calls constantly for a few months.
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I much prefer the pitching rules in fast pitch. I'm only slightly exaggerating when I say that if the pitcher even looks at me the wrong way, it's an illegal pitch.
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I much prefer the pitching rules in fast pitch. I'm only slightly exaggerating when I say that if the pitcher even looks at me the wrong way, it's an illegal pitch.
I used to ump low/entry level fast pitch, which basically meant the team with a girl who could pitch would dominate. My strike zones got huge and I made no secret about that if kids were struggling to find plate. The league wanted to get these kids swinging and not a walk fest. If a kid hit the plate my mega zone didnt change anything. Of course when came to bat to face a poor pitcher they better swing. Given 50min time slots I liked the objective. Some parents just would not grasp this so I would make it crystal clear in pre-game.
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Man, Miller is so, so good.
Meh - it's not your father's High Life
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ump made a bad call
Ya they blew that - not even close.Remember watching that & forgot the exact way the rule was structured but with the infielder peddling back the call on ball location wasn't even in question.Had to be at least 50 ft deep into the outfield
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Meh - it's not your father's High Life
https://youtu.be/0PLmC7MX_OY
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Judging a fly ball is an interesting skill. It doesn't take long to master, in my experience, but initially it is nearly impossible until you have maybe 20 flies hit your way.
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Judging a fly ball is an interesting skill. It doesn't take long to master, in my experience, but initially it is nearly impossible until you have maybe 20 flies hit your way.
Coaching my sons U9 travel team, it's tough. We practice it, every kid can catch it if you throw it, no matter how high. The way it comes off the bat is totally different, and none of us are good enough to consistently hit fly balls into the outfield. It works like 1/4 of the time, then the other 3/4 of the time we miss, hit a grounder, or a line drive
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Ah, practice you need, hitting fly balls. Or a fungo.
I'm pretty good at it, or used to be. The strange thing is I bat left handed but hit fly balls right handed.
And you just thought I was weird.
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Judging a fly ball is an interesting skill. It doesn't take long to master, in my experience, but initially it is nearly impossible until you have maybe 20 flies hit your way.
I wonder if there's an evolutionarily-based equivalent that helps make that leap from "how in the hell" to "this is easy."
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Ah, practice you need, hitting fly balls. Or a fungo.
I'm pretty good at it, or used to be. The strange thing is I bat left handed but hit fly balls right handed.
And you just thought I was weird.
That's very weird, as different-handedness tends to only occur among actions above (like throwing a ball) vs below the waist (like bowling). To have the same motion be comfortably done is odd.
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That's very weird, as different-handedness tends to only occur among actions above (like throwing a ball) vs below the waist (like bowling). To have the same motion be comfortably done is odd.
there have been many players who throw right and bat left or vice versa
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Ah, practice you need, hitting fly balls. Or a fungo.
I'm pretty good at it, or used to be. The strange thing is I bat left handed but hit fly balls right handed.
And you just thought I was weird.
I bat (and golf, hockey, shoot basketball) left, but do everything else right. Up until third grade, I was completely ambidextrous, to the point that I would write with my left hand on the left side of the paper, and transfer the pencil to my right hand in the middle, without even thinking about it. I had a teacher grind that out of me though.
I hit soft fly balls better right handed though. Granted I miss or make soft contact just as often. Left handed I just wind up hitting grounders or hard line drives. Cannot hit soft fly balls at all with my correct handedness
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I bat (and golf, hockey, shoot basketball) left, but do everything else right. Up until third grade, I was completely ambidextrous, to the point that I would write with my left hand on the left side of the paper, and transfer the pencil to my right hand in the middle, without even thinking about it. I had a teacher grind that out of me though.
I hit soft fly balls better right handed though. Granted I miss or make soft contact just as often. Left handed I just wind up hitting grounders or hard line drives. Cannot hit soft fly balls at all with my correct handedness
scientists would say youre not in your right mind I mean right minded
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You don't need to pay a scientist to tell you that, just ask my wife
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Very few MLB players threw left and batted right, Red Schoendinst comes to mind. The reverse is pretty common, and some HoFers did it.
I have no clue why I hit grounders and flies right handed. I did a lot of coaching back when. I can do it lefty, but it feels weird.
I can hit a little right handed, but it feels weird. It makes sense to me that my stronger right arm should be the lead hand on the bat. I had a Little League coach try and convert me because he didn't want me to get hit on the shoulder as I was pitching. I was the winning pitcher in 10th grade in our clinching win in the 8AAA championship game. I was supposed to be the guy my junior year when I tore my labrum, I got it right that time.
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The best throw-L, bat-R player ever was probably Rickey Henderson.
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I didn't even recall he was that way, I'd guess most of that ilk might be switch hitters.
The number of great hitters who threw right and batted left is pretty large, relatively, I'm not one of them.
Lee and Foley are confusing, as is Rickey Henderson (https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/_/id/449/rickey-henderson), one of the greatest players ever. He bats right-handed, but throws left-handed. Only five nonpitchers since 1900 have played 1,000 games batting right-handed and throwing left-handed: Henderson, Ryan Ludwick (https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/_/id/5036/ryan-ludwick), Cody Ross (https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/_/id/5404/cody-ross), Cleon Jones and Hal Chase. Former outfielder Mark Carreon is one of only six since 1900 who played at least 500 games that way. Why are these guys so rare, and yet there are hundreds of players who bat left-handed and throw right-handed, like Joe Morgan, George Brett and Carl Yastrzemski? Is it just that there are a lot more right-handed people in the world than lefties?
MLB - Baseball has history of ambidexterity (espn.com) (https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/12479736/mlb-baseball-history-ambidexterity)
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In terms of handedness, baseball has a lot of screwed-up players. And in that regard, screwed-up is good because it means both hands work well. It also means the hand that goes inside the glove is dexterous, so chances are it will help the player defensively, if not in all ways. The first time I met the great Brooks Robinson, who won 16 Gold Gloves at third base, was at a luncheon in 1979. He ate with his left hand. Later that day, I saw him signing autographs with his left hand. How could this be? How much more right-handed can you get than a right-handed hitting third baseman?
"I noticed it the first day I met him," said Davey Johnson, who played second base for the Orioles when Robinson was the third baseman. "I looked at Brooks and thought to myself, 'He's the best defensive third baseman of all time, and he writes with his left hand.' So I wrote with my left hand for a year hoping that it would make me a better defensive second baseman. It didn't work."
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Baseball Players Who Bat Lefty and Throw Righty Are More Likely to Be Great (mensjournal.com) (https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/baseball-players-who-bat-lefty-and-throw-righty-are-more-likely-be-great/)
The study, which re-analyzed data from a similar 1982 study and incorporated new data from every major-league player from 1871 through 2016, finds that only 2% of the general population throws righty and bats lefty, but 12% of major-leaguers do so. In addition, 32% of the best-ever big-leaguers (https://www.mensjournal.com/sports//10-fittest-major-league-baseball-players-all-time) hit lefty but throw righty, which, the study authors argue, suggests that righties who adopt a lefty stance have a greater chance of becoming, well, great.
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Baseball Players Who Bat Lefty and Throw Righty Are More Likely to Be Great (mensjournal.com) (https://www.mensjournal.com/sports/baseball-players-who-bat-lefty-and-throw-righty-are-more-likely-be-great/)
The study, which re-analyzed data from a similar 1982 study and incorporated new data from every major-league player from 1871 through 2016, finds that only 2% of the general population throws righty and bats lefty, but 12% of major-leaguers do so. In addition, 32% of the best-ever big-leaguers (https://www.mensjournal.com/sports//10-fittest-major-league-baseball-players-all-time) hit lefty but throw righty, which, the study authors argue, suggests that righties who adopt a lefty stance have a greater chance of becoming, well, great.
Cool, I'm the exception. I was actually a plus defender, but the worst hitter on my HS team. Turns out being left handed, but late on everything, just slapping it to left field with no power, is pretty useless
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Oddly enough, I hit pretty well in fantasy baseball, except for this past camp. Most pitchers are not very fast and only 2-3 have any curve ball worth noting. I usually manage to "hit'em where they ain't". and occasionally some right fielder will sneak in thinking I'm an old man and I can line drive over his head.
I use a 33 oz bat and choke up an inch. I did not hit very well in HS because I had the fence in mind.
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I think the only way to catch flies and judge them is to do it over and over. I liken it to receiving serves in volleyball. You have to keep seeing the ball come at you with different velocity, spin, arc etc. The backdrop matters a fair amount as well.
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I think the only way to catch flies and judge them is to do it over and over. I liken it to receiving serves in volleyball. You have to keep seeing the ball come at you with different velocity, spin, arc etc. The backdrop matters a fair amount as well.
There is also something about reading them off the bat when you aren't sure you are getting a fly ball
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Coaching my sons U9 travel team, it's tough. We practice it, every kid can catch it if you throw it, no matter how high. The way it comes off the bat is totally different, and none of us are good enough to consistently hit fly balls into the outfield. It works like 1/4 of the time, then the other 3/4 of the time we miss, hit a grounder, or a line drive
Lol. Trust me, just like learning to catch a fly ball takes practice so does learning how to hit one. When my daughter first got into softball I struggled to consistently get the ball in the air. I can take her to the field now and hit 100 fly balls within a 10 foot radius of each other. Toss the ball up and hit it with an upper cut swing somewhere between your chest and shoulders. You gotta catch it high. If you let it drop below your chest you will hit a lot of line drives.
And it actually is important the kids are fielding fly balls off a bat because what you said is right. There’s a world of difference in fielding a batted ball rather than someone tossing one in the air.
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Why is it different coming off the bat versus throwing it? I agree it is, I don't understand why. Spin?
I think a thrown grounder is the same as off the bat, if the same speed.
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Why is it different coming off the bat versus throwing it? I agree it is, I don't understand why. Spin?
I think a thrown grounder is the same as off the bat, if the same speed.
I’m just spitballing here but I think there might be a couple of factors. One is if I’m tossing balls in the air the kids have to be a lot closer to me. I can stick kids 200 feet in the outfield and hit balls. I can’t hand toss balls that far. So, the closer they are the easier I think it is to watch the ball all the way out of my hand and pick it up easier. The further away they are the more difficult it is to pick the ball up immediately.
I think there’s a moment when the ball comes off the bat that you lose it temporarily and then have to track it again.
I also think there is a world of difference in knowing a ball is coming to you as opposed to not knowing and having to react. I like to put kids at all 9 positions and just randomly hit balls to them. Not in any kind of order, just wherever, whenever.
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much different spins at much higher spin rates coming off the bat
top spin, side spin, very little spin, back spin
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Back in the day, I could throw a ball about as far as I could hit a fungo. But it does look different.
I remember for fun at the end of practice some of my 12 year olds would stay late and I'd hit shots to them as hard as I could hit them, probably close to 300 feet. Maybe 250. It seemed like a mile. I was young and goofy.
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now you're just not as young
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I noticed when I turned 40ish, bruises and soreness would not heal nearly as well. I could still play sports OK, and get "into shape" in a few days, quasi shape. I basically quit trying as I neared 50 and got dumpy. Then when I retired I resolved to "get in shape", which has proven amazingly difficult. I do ten time the work for one tenth the gain. I didn't run while we were in Cincy and ran the last two days and really feel it.