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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Drew4UTk on January 22, 2018, 09:59:20 AM

Title: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: Drew4UTk on January 22, 2018, 09:59:20 AM
why CFB has so much trouble crowning a NC...

https://www.cfb51.com/pub/?p=29565

thoughts? 
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: FearlessF on January 22, 2018, 10:52:42 AM
I agree with all of this:

1997: Nebraska over Michigan, but since they didn’t face each other, claim it up. The Huskers played more final-ranked teams, won more decisively overall, and have the selector majority, but were punished in the AP Poll for the Flea Kicker against Missouri. Here’s what cancels out that controversy: Washington State being robbed of its final play against Michigan in the Rose Bowl. The Huskers probably would’ve been favored in a title game, too.

1996: Florida.

1995: Nebraska.

1994: Unbeaten Nebraska beat two of the final top six teams. Unbeaten Penn State beat four of the final 14. PSU’s overall schedule was harder, but Nebraska was more dominant. The (many) polls favored the Huskers, while the Nittany Lions have the advanced-stats advantage, roughly splitting the computers at the time and adding SRS and S&P+ since (the stats say Penn State is the best non-title team of this era). Nebraska ended up with almost three times as many outright NCAA-listed No. 1s, including the AP.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: rolltidefan on January 22, 2018, 11:26:22 AM
good read.

only thing i don't like is they don't include the full story on some of these seasons. like 78 for bama/usc. yes, usc beat bama earlier in season, but usc also lost to a 3 loss asu later in season, and bama beat #1 psu in the sugar bowl while usc beat #5 mich in the rose. h2h means a lot, but it's not the whole story either. bama did a lot to claim their title as well.

and check out the ooc schedules for both teams:
bama:
#10 nebraska (rankings are game time)
@#11 mizzou
#7 usc
@washington
va tech

usc:
texas tech
@ #1 bama
mich state
#8 notre dame
@hawaii

man those would be fun schedules to see now.

and also, 1945 for bama isn't mentioned but should be. undefeated and closest score was a 14 pt win, including a rose bowl win vs usc. army deserves the title, but based on the other mentions of undefeated teams in other years in this article, 45 bama deserves to be mentioned as well.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 22, 2018, 12:05:29 PM
Yep, good read and good breakdown of why these claims are mythical.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 22, 2018, 12:15:35 PM
and also, 1945 for bama isn't mentioned but should be. undefeated and closest score was a 14 pt win, including a rose bowl win vs usc. army deserves the title, but based on the other mentions of undefeated teams in other years in this article, 45 bama deserves to be mentioned as well.
1944 is similar for Ohio State
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: ELA on January 22, 2018, 12:20:03 PM
1997: Nebraska over Michigan, but since they didn’t face each other, claim it up. The Huskers played more final-ranked teams, won more decisively overall, and have the selector majority, but were punished in the AP Poll for the Flea Kicker against Missouri. Here’s what cancels out that controversy: Washington State being robbed of its final play against Michigan in the Rose Bowl. The Huskers probably would’ve been favored in a title game, too.
Although they were only in position for that play because the WSU WR shoved Woodson down, then made the catch.  The ref pulled the flag out for offensive PI, went to throw it, then stopped himself for some reason.  It was as egregious a PI as you will ever see not called.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: Cincydawg on January 22, 2018, 12:25:58 PM
I enjoy all the speculation and dissent and discussion and argument and Hail Marys unless they are against us.

I also think UCF should be able to call itself NC if they want.  It doesn't hurt anyone.

Have multiple NCs every year, fine with me.  One for FCS, one for Div III, and 3 for FBS.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: FearlessF on January 22, 2018, 12:48:31 PM

man those would be fun schedules to see now.

the best reason old guys sometimes romanticise about going back to the good old daze
the playing field wasn't level for teams like Boise, UCF, or even Kansas and Kansas St.  But, there were some derned good teams squaring off on the gridiron  
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: FearlessF on January 22, 2018, 12:53:14 PM
I also think UCF should be able to call itself NC if they want.  It doesn't hurt anyone.

Have multiple NCs every year, fine with me.  One for FCS, one for Div III, and 3 for FBS.
Ed Zachery
as a Husker fan I didn't mind the "split" with Michigan in 97 and would have been fine sharing with Penn St. in 94
even though I firmly believe the Huskers would have won head to head both seasons
unfortunately, because of the Big Ten, those games didn't happen
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: Cincydawg on January 22, 2018, 02:15:42 PM
We've discussed also how some great teams slipped up at the wrong time, 1998 Ohio State and 1983 Texas come to mind, while likely having the "best team" that year.  Georgia in 2003 could make that list along with 2008.

Heck, the Dawgs could claim (and some do) this past season.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 22, 2018, 07:11:36 PM
This is a great list for what I'm doing with the board game.  And once all the champs are created and the other school's best teams, these close-call teams would be great to have.  Settle the score with unfairly leap-frogged '83 Auburn vs. Miami.  Or have '84 BYU play Washington, Florida, and OU, lol.

Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: CWSooner on January 22, 2018, 09:03:00 PM
Quote
1973: Notre Dame beat Alabama in their No. 1 vs. No. 3 bowl, so ignore Bama’s claim to this season, unless you’d also like to ignore the game between the two at the end of the 2012 season. SRS considers once-tied Oklahoma the best non-World War II team ever, by the way.

The tie was 7-7 vs. #1 defending-champion USC in the Coliseum in the 2nd game of the season.  Barry Switzer said later that he didn't know how good a team he had or he would have coached a lot less conservatively.  Soph QB Steve Davis was in his second college football game.  He would start in 34 of them, going 32-1-1.  He had Joe Washington at LHB and Waymon Clark at FB.  Each of them rushed for over 1,000 yards, and Davis rushed for almost 900 himself, while passing for over 900, quite a lot for an early wishbone team.  RHB was by committee, but was productive.

The Selmon brothers were the core of the DL, with oldest brother Lucious at NG and Dewey and Lee Roy flanking him as the DTs.  Rod Shoate was one of the linebackers in the 5-2 defense, and Jimbo Elrod and Duane Bacchus was the starting DEs.

That was a very good team.  After squeaking past Miami, the Sooners ripped through the rest of the schedule, beating Texas 52-13.  That was the first season of a staggered probation--TV was OK, but no bowl game was allowed.  So the last time anyone could see OU on TV until the '75 (season) Orange Bowl vs. Michigan was the 27-0 hammering of Nebraska in which the Huskers crossed the 50 only once, and then fumbled at the end of that play at about the OU 45.  After that game, DC Larry Lacewell said he'd take his defense and go fight the Russians.

On probation and with no bowl game, it's hard to make the case for an NC, but that was a very, very good 10-0-1 team.  At the end of the year, I think that they were the best in all the land.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: FearlessF on January 22, 2018, 10:05:24 PM
Barry's first season as head coach
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: rolltidefan on January 23, 2018, 10:06:53 AM
The tie was 7-7 vs. #1 defending-champion USC in the Coliseum in the 2nd game of the season.  Barry Switzer said later that he didn't know how good a team he had or he would have coached a lot less conservatively.  Soph QB Steve Davis was in his second college football game.  He would start in 34 of them, going 32-1-1.  He had Joe Washington at LHB and Waymon Clark at FB.  Each of them rushed for over 1,000 yards, and Davis rushed for almost 900 himself, while passing for over 900, quite a lot for an early wishbone team.  RHB was by committee, but was productive.

The Selmon brothers were the core of the DL, with oldest brother Lucious at NG and Dewey and Lee Roy flanking him as the DTs.  Rod Shoate was one of the linebackers in the 5-2 defense, and Jimbo Elrod and Duane Bacchus was the starting DEs.

That was a very good team.  After squeaking past Miami, the Sooners ripped through the rest of the schedule, beating Texas 52-13.  That was the first season of a staggered probation--TV was OK, but no bowl game was allowed.  So the last time anyone could see OU on TV until the '75 (season) Orange Bowl vs. Michigan was the 27-0 hammering of Nebraska in which the Huskers crossed the 50 only once, and then fumbled at the end of that play at about the OU 45.  After that game, DC Larry Lacewell said he'd take his defense and go fight the Russians.

On probation and with no bowl game, it's hard to make the case for an NC, but that was a very, very good 10-0-1 team.  At the end of the year, I think that they were the best in all the land.
we've discussed it in another thread (oam card game thread i think) but 73 was one hell of a season for good teams.
nd 11-0
psu 12-0
bama 11-1
ou 10-0-1
osu 10-0-1
mich 10-0-1
houston 11-1
texas tech 11-1
asu 11-1
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: FearlessF on January 23, 2018, 12:06:25 PM
so, that's why Michigan missed out on a top 5 finish in the final AP Poll in 73?

finished #6
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 23, 2018, 12:11:51 PM
That is definitely the kind of season that could break the playoff as we know it. While some details could change (no more ties, and Michigan, Penn State, and Ohio State couldn't all finish the way they did here), you could have an unbeaten team out of each side of a major conference, playing close championship games, leaving 5 unbeaten or 1-loss teams, with a lot of others close by, and an independent and FCS team also in the ranks of unbeatens. Would that ever cause confusion (worst case would be 12-1 SEC west champion, having won the SEC, and Alabama at 11-1, with a close loss to the winner--thus not playing the SEC championship game, and the winner with an early loss to some other well-regarded team); a similar thing happens in another conference regarded at the time as one of the strongest, then a couple of unbeatens in the other major conferences, ND, and and FCS all coming in undefeated. Chaos!
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: rolltidefan on January 23, 2018, 12:37:24 PM
That is definitely the kind of season that could break the playoff as we know it. While some details could change (no more ties, and Michigan, Penn State, and Ohio State couldn't all finish the way they did here), you could have an unbeaten team out of each side of a major conference, playing close championship games, leaving 5 unbeaten or 1-loss teams, with a lot of others close by, and an independent and FCS team also in the ranks of unbeatens. Would that ever cause confusion (worst case would be 12-1 SEC west champion, having won the SEC, and Alabama at 11-1, with a close loss to the winner--thus not playing the SEC championship game, and the winner with an early loss to some other well-regarded team); a similar thing happens in another conference regarded at the time as one of the strongest, then a couple of unbeatens in the other major conferences, ND, and and FCS all coming in undefeated. Chaos!
2008 comes to mind. pre-bowls, you had:

in sec:
12-1 sec champs florida
12-1 sec runner up bama, in an seccg in which bama lead midway through the 4th qtr (close game).

bigxii:
12-1 champ ou (lost to texas, beat tt)
11-1 texas (lost to tt, beat ou)
11-1 tt (lost to ou, beat texas).
a 3-way tie for the div crown, with ou getting nod by being one of the 2 ranked highest in bcs at time, and won that h2h matchup (with texas).

in bigten
11-1 champ psu.

in pac
11-1 champ usc.

also had:
12-0 boise st
12-0 utah

now that is one big clusterf*#$
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: CWSooner on January 23, 2018, 06:50:33 PM
2008 comes to mind. pre-bowls, you had:

. . . . 

bigxii:
12-1 champ ou (lost to texas, beat tt)
11-1 texas (lost to tt, beat ou)
11-1 tt (lost to ou, beat texas).
a 3-way tie for the div crown, with ou getting nod by being one of the 2 ranked highest in bcs at time, and won that h2h matchup (with texas).
I am sorry to say this, but OU lost the head-to-head with Texas.
I'm even sorrier to say that Texas probably deserved to go to the CCG.
The 3-way tie went like this.
Texas beat OU by 10 (45-35) on a neutral site (the Cotton Bowl).
Texas Tech beat Texas by one score (39-36) in Lubbock.  And I think that Tech scored in the final few seconds to win that game.

OU stomped Texas Tech (65-21) in Norman.

So Texas' only loss was not only the closest of the losses, it was on the road.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 23, 2018, 08:01:46 PM

Texas Tech beat Texas by one score (39-36) in Lubbock.  And I think that Tech scored in the final few seconds to win that game.
28-yard touchdown pass to Michael Crabtree with 1 second left made it 39-33 (after the XP). One wonders what Tech's chances would have been if they had to line up for a 45-yard field goal with that remaining 1 second.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: Drew4UTk on January 23, 2018, 08:05:17 PM
a gorgeous almost impossible catch of a perfectly placed pass....
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: FearlessF on January 23, 2018, 08:24:55 PM
crabtree was pretty good
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 23, 2018, 09:22:32 PM
It wasn't even the throw and catch, but the broken tackle and TD that left me speechless.  OHHH, HOW'D THEY GIVE UP THAT PA....OHHHHHH NO WAY HE SCORED!!!

They would've made the short FG, but still....nuts ending.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: FearlessF on January 23, 2018, 09:41:58 PM
it wasn't as good as the Minneapolis Miracle, but it was stunning
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: rolltidefan on January 24, 2018, 10:25:19 AM
I am sorry to say this, but OU lost the head-to-head with Texas.
I'm even sorrier to say that Texas probably deserved to go to the CCG.
The 3-way tie went like this.
Texas beat OU by 10 (45-35) on a neutral site (the Cotton Bowl).
Texas Tech beat Texas by one score (39-36) in Lubbock.  And I think that Tech scored in the final few seconds to win that game.

OU stomped Texas Tech (65-21) in Norman.

So Texas' only loss was not only the closest of the losses, it was on the road.
don't know how i screwed that up. i even got it right in the recap part. thanks for correction. how did ou win the tie breaker then? they were 2nd (behind texas) in bcs going into ccg weekend, unless the internet it wrong (can't be :)).

on crabtree's catch, it was amazing, but best part was his interview after the game. "i dreamed it in my head". good stuff.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 24, 2018, 04:06:14 PM
Dates:

Oct 11 - Texas d. OU

Nov 1 - TTU d. Texas

Nov 22 - OU d. TTU

It's all in WHEN you win and lose....

Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: ftbobs on January 24, 2018, 04:53:38 PM
why CFB has so much trouble crowning a NC...

https://www.cfb51.com/pub/?p=29565

thoughts?

UCF has nobody to compare to if they claim a title.  Nobody has claimed a title in any year they didn't win the AP or Coaches' poll since the early 1980s.  This guy is talking out his butt.  Because teams claimed titles in the 1920s based on a selector doesn't mean that's what's done today.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: rolltidefan on January 24, 2018, 05:11:27 PM
i see what i did, i looked at wrong poll. i looked at ap poll, not bcs.

in ap poll, texas was 3rd and ou 4th going into ccg games (tt 8th)
in coaches, ou was 2nd, texas 3rd, tt 8th.
harris, texas 3rd, ou 4th, tt 8th

but in bcs, ou was 2nd, texas 3rd, tt 7th. this is the one that the tie breaker used.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 24, 2018, 05:20:39 PM
When humans are polled, losing early has always been a strength.
Title: Re: good read here, inline with recent topic
Post by: CWSooner on January 24, 2018, 09:58:05 PM
i see what i did, i looked at wrong poll. i looked at ap poll, not bcs.

in ap poll, texas was 3rd and ou 4th going into ccg games (tt 8th)
in coaches, ou was 2nd, texas 3rd, tt 8th.
harris, texas 3rd, ou 4th, tt 8th

but in bcs, ou was 2nd, texas 3rd, tt 7th. this is the one that the tie breaker used.
Yep.

OU was ahead of Texas in the BCS rankings after the regular season, and that was the final tie-breaker for the CCG.
Mack Brown engineered a change in the tie-breaker rules right after that.  True fact.
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