CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: SFBadger96 on January 17, 2018, 03:15:45 PM
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Something got me thinking about this for Wisconsin. No brainer, right? Barry Alvarez. Or is it?
"King Barry" resuscitated Wisconsin football, won three conference championships and three Rose Bowls (still the only ones Wisconsin has won), and had several top-10 AP finishes. As the head football coach he went 8-3 in bowl games (and is 9-4 overall, having coached two more on an interim basis as the AD). In sixteen seasons ('90-05), he had a .605 winning percentage, which isn't gaudy, but taking into account where the program came from, it's pretty darned impressive. And he brought in Ron Dayne, Wisconsin's second Heisman Trophy winner. Also while still the coach he brought in Bret Bielema and brought Paul Chryst back (this is as a coach; as the AD, his hires look pretty good, too).
In seven seasons ('06-'12), the much-reviled Bret Bielema had a winning percentage of .739, won three conference championships, and his teams made three appearances in the Rose Bowl (but lost them all, though Alvarez coached the last--and least deserving). His teams were 2-4 in bowl games (2-5 with the Rose Bowl Alvarez coached when Bielema left), but, again, seven bowl games, including three Rose Bowls, in seven seasons [H/T to Badge for pointing out where my math wasn't adding up.]. And he left the program in pretty good shape, as evidenced by Gary Andersen's .731 winning percentage in his two seasons.
BUT...
Ivy Williamson went .641 in six seasons ('49-55) in Madison, including a Big Ten championship and appearance in the Rose Bowl (a 7-0 loss to USC)--in an era in which only the conference champion played in a bowl game. He also brought Alan Ameche--the only other Badger to with the Heisman, to Madison. Also, like Alvarez, he became the AD after coaching, and brought in Milt Bruhn...
Milt Bruhn had a modest .505 winning percentage during his eleven years ('56-'66) in Madison, but he twice won the conference championship. Despite going 0-2 in the Rose Bowl, in the 1962 season he coached what is generally considered Wisconsin's best-ever team, losing a dramatic Rose Bowl to national champion USC, and finishing with the highest AP ranking of any Wisconsin team (#2 -- to be fair, at the time the AP didn't re-rank teams after the bowl games). Bruhn, too, became the AD (when Williamson retired), but passed--or missed--on the opportunity to hire some guy named Schembechler (you may have heard of him).
What about Dave McClain? He had a .506 record in eight seasons ('78-'85) in Wisconsin, but like Alvarez was brought in to fix an anemic program. He turned around Wisconsin's fortunes, including four-straight winning seasons, and five of eight after Wisconsin had only one winning season in the fourteen seasons before he arrived. He went 1-2 in bowl games giving the Badgers their first ever bowl win (in the Independence Bowl over Kansas State). He died suddenly in April 1986, leaving the Badgers without a head coach.
There are some guys back in the Michigan era of college football, but I can't even begin to think about them.
And Paul Chryst currently has a remarkable .829 winning percentage and is 3-0 in bowl games, including two "New Years Six" bowls, after three seasons ('15-...), but no conference championships and he has benefited from a weak B1G West. He "righted" the program that many thought Andersen left worse than he found it. But let's face it, it's early.
So I'll exclude Chryst.
After all that, King Barry keeps #1, due to his longevity and bowl record, but there's a good argument for Williamson at #2. Bielema, despite the ill-will towards him, did a good job in Madison. I place him at #3, but there's a good argument based on his conference championships and winning percentage to put him at #2. Bruhn finished with three straight losing seasons, and though it shouldn't count against him as a coach, did a horrible job finding a replacement for himself. That probably elevates McClain to #4, Bruhn at #5, and Chryst pending...
Honorable mention to Harry Stuhldreher, one of the Four Horsemen of Notre Dame, and the only Wisconsin coach to deliver any kind of recognized National Championship (1942 Helms Athletic Foundation--Ohio State won the AP national championship, with its only loss at Wisconsin). But his winning percentage at Wisconsin was .425, he only had three winning seasons, and he never won a conference championship in his thirteen seasons ('36-'48).
The 1942 season is a curious one. Ohio State won the conference championship despite the loss to Wisconsin and both teams having one loss in conference. But Wisconsin only played five conference games to Ohio State's six, thus Ohio State had a better conference record (5-1 to 4-1) and thus won the conference title. Ohio State finished the season 9-1 and was the AP #1/MNC, but did not play in a bowl game. Wisconsin, with "Crazylegs" Elroy Hirsch leading the team, was 8-1-1, AP #3, with the win over MNC Ohio State, a win over #19 (final AP) Minnesota, a tie against #6 (final AP) Notre Dame and a loss at Iowa. AP #2 Georgia defeated #13 UCLA in the Rose Bowl and claims 1942 as one of its two MNCs from an era in which the MNC was, well, mythical. Georgia's wins included whuppings of then #3 Alabama and #2 Georgia Tech, with its loss to that pesky Auburn.
PS: I don't swear all the winning percentages are exactly correct. FTBobs, where did you move cfbtrivia!?!
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Good topic.
While the obvious debate would be between Urban and Woody, with Paul Brown and maybe even Jim Tressel as the dark horse candidates, I'm going to venture way off of the rails and nominate John B Eckstrom, who coached from 1899-1902.
He inherited a middling OSU program coming off of two losing seasons including the 1897 debacle that still stands as the worst in school history to this day, and immediately turned things around, laying the groundwork for what the program would become.
The football squad was less than a decade old, with only one Conference Title in school history, amidst eight more years of total suckage.
In year one he guided OSU to their first undefeated football season in school history, posting shutouts in 9 of the 10 games.
In year two, he posted a one-loss season that included the first tie against Michigan in the rivalry (OSU was 0-1 vs Michigan before Eckstrom was hired, with the loss taking place in the atrocious 1897 season).
Year three took a bit of a dip, as the team endured a three game losing streak towards seasons end. But two of the losses were to big bad Big Ten teams (Michigan and Indiana), so there was only one "Conference" loss.
He retired at seasons end due to a player fatality, iirc, but the foundation had been laid, atop which was built the Buckeye program that you see today.
OSU was a meager 3-6 vs their primary rival Kenyon before Eckstrom took over. Ecksrom posted a perfect 3-0 record vs the Kenyon Lords; kicking off a 14 game winning streak in the series that is technically still intact to this day.
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JOHN B. ECKSTROM
1899 (9-0-1)
Captain: D. B. Sayers
Sept.30 W Otterbein.......................... 30-0
Oct. 7 W Wittenberg ....................... 28-0
14 T at Case............................... 5-5
21 W Ohio University ................. 41-0
28 W at Oberlin ........................... 6-0
Nov. 4 W Western Reserve................ 6-0
11 W Marietta............................. 17-0
18 W Ohio Medical.....................12-0
25 W at Muskingum .................. 34-0
30 W Kenyon (TG)........................ 5-0
Points - OSU 184, OPP 5
(TG) Thanksgiving Day Game
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1900 (8-1-1)
Captain: J. H.
Tilton
Sept.29 W Otterbein..........................20-0
Oct. 6 W Ohio University ................20-0
13 W at Cincinnati ..................... 29-0
20 W Ohio Wesleyan..................47-0
27 W Oberlin .............................. 17-0
Nov. 3 W West Virginia .................... 27-0
10 W Case ................................24-10
17 L Ohio Medical......................6-11
24 T at Michigan ........................ 0-0
29 W Kenyon (TG)...................... 23-5
Points - OSU 213, OPP 26
(TG) Thanksgiving Day Game
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1901 (5-3-1)
Captain: J. M. Kittle
Sept.28 T Otterbein............................ 0-0
Oct. 5 W Wittenberg ....................... 30-0
12 W Ohio University ................. 17-0
19 W Marietta............................ 24-0
26 W Western Reserve................ 6-5
Nov. 9 L Michigan............................0-21
16 L at Oberlin ........................... 0-6
23 L Indiana .............................. 6-18
28 W Kenyon (TG)........................11-6
Points - OSU 94, OPP 56
(TG) Thanksgiving Day Game
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I'm not going to quibble with much of any of that, SF. I'd strongly consider McClain at #2 though, because I think he had the program moving in the right direction with just shy of zero in the resource department.
Also, Bielema's teams never missed a bowl (you said 6 of his 7 years). He just wasn't good at them.
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1899 (9-0-1)
Captain: D. B. Sayers
Sept.30 W Otterbein.......................... 30-0
Oct. 7 W Wittenberg ....................... 28-0
14 T at Case............................... 5-5
21 W Ohio University ................. 41-0
28 W at Oberlin ........................... 6-0
Nov. 4 W Western Reserve................ 6-0
11 W Marietta............................. 17-0
18 W Ohio Medical.....................12-0
25 W at Muskingum .................. 34-0
30 W Kenyon (TG)........................ 5-0
Points - OSU 184, OPP 5
(TG) Thanksgiving Day Game
Holey moley. No TDs yielded, and only 5 points yielded, all season. That's some D.
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Also, Bielema's teams never missed a bowl (you said 6 of his 7 years). He just wasn't good at them.
Of course; thanks for the correction. He was 2-4 because he didn't coach the Rose Bowl in 2013. I always think of 2008 as a disaster because they under performed their potential, but that was the year they lost to Miami (or maybe FSU when the punter was the true MVP?), I think.
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toss up
Devaney or Osborne
I'll lean towards Devaney.
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Of course; thanks for the correction. He was 2-4 because he didn't coach the Rose Bowl in 2013. I always think of 2008 as a disaster because they under performed their potential, but that was the year they lost to Miami (or maybe FSU when the punter was the true MVP?), I think.
Champ Sports Bowl vs FSU. Starting Dustin Sherer.
Bret’s bowl issues were a microcosm of his career. His team played right with good team, often more talented ones, and ended up a bit below .500.
Outside that FSU game, the bowl margins were 3-point win, 4-point loss, 6-point win, 2-point loss, 7-point loss. Even that third Rose Bowl team he didn’t coach was in a far tighter game than it had any right to be in.
I was gonna jokingly say Gary Anderson just to get Badge a little stirred up (his legacy will forever be strange). SF mostly has it right, though I might put McClain over BB. BB did the job asked, not dropping the baton. McClain pulled UW form the dregs into a kind a compitance.
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This SF quote makes me laugh a little:
"There are some guys back in the Michigan era of college football, but I can't even begin to think about them."
:57:
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James Wallace "Wally" Butts, Jr. (February 7, 1905 – December 17, 1973) was an American football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) player, coach, and college athletics administrator. He served as the head coach at the University of Georgia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Georgia) from 1939 to 1960, compiling a record of 140–86–9. His Georgia Bulldogs football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Bulldogs_football) teams won a national championships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_NCAA_Division_I_FBS) in 1942 and four Southeastern Conference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference) titles (1942, 1946, 1948, 1959). Butts was also the athletic director (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athletic_director) at Georgia from 1939 to 1963.[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wally_Butts#cite_note-coaches-1) He was inducted posthumously into the College Football Hall of Fame (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_Football_Hall_of_Fame) as a coach in 1997.
In an interesting parallel, UGA played in the Rose Bowl in 1942/3 as you note after losing to Auburn, and played again there this season after losing to Auburn. They won both games.
The NC thing of course slipped out of their reach in Atlanta, which would have made for a real storybook season, but I'm proud of those guys.
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This SF quote makes me laugh a little:
"There are some guys back in the Michigan era of college football, but I can't even begin to think about them."
:57:
yup, the Huskers had some good runs in the 1800s and early 1900s, but I'm not going there
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yup, the Huskers had some good runs in the 1800s and early 1900s, but I'm not going there
(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F_SWF9i3Vzpac%2FTTysCkJ4kaI%2FAAAAAAAABFY%2FNreKH_-adAI%2Fs1600%2FChicken%2BMcFly-BTTF.gif&hash=16bfae884fdfa83061161b09ad35e571)
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IMHO, the best coach to ever coach at Ohio State was Paul Brown. However, the best Ohio State coach was Woody Hayes.
The difference is semantic, but major. IMHO, Paul Brown was the best football coach ever, period. He won Ohio State's first NC and also won Championships at the HS level (even more mythical than CFB) and in the NFL. If not for WWII, he might have coached at Ohio State for 30 years (like Woody - 28) and if he had, he probably would have won a LOT of MNC's. I say that because he managed one, Ohio State's first, in just three years as HC. Then he got drafted and coached Great Lakes Navy for the duration of WWII before coaching the Cleveland Browns to three NFL Championships in the 50's. He had also won four HS NC's.
When Ohio State reached #1 during the 1942 season, it was the first time they had ever achieved that. Numerous Buckeye players drank bad water prior to the Wisconsin Game (in Madison) and the Buckeyes lost. As I understand it, the team traveled on train cars that had been idled due to the war and were put back in service for the trip apparently with stagnant water in their tanks.
Paul Brown can't be considered the best Ohio State coach because he was only 1-1-1 against Michigan, only won one NC, and never coached a bowl game.
Woody Hayes has to be considered the best Ohio State coach because he won 13 league titles, 3-5 NC's (depends who you ask), went 205-61-10 overall, 152-37-7 in conference, 16-11-1 against Michigan, and won five bowl games including four Rose Bowls.
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With Osborne's longevity of twenty five seasons, .823 winning percentage, three national titles, three undefeated seasons and three more 1-loss seasons, as well as only losing three games in five years at the end, never lost more than three games or won fewer than nine--in 25 seasons!!--and his contribution to both of Devaney's national title teams as the offensive coordinator...whoa.
Devaney was great, no question; I would put Osborne as #1--but that's a nice argument to be able to have if you're a Nebraska fan.
I never gave Osborne's record all that much thought, but looking at it now, he's got to be one of the top, what..., 3(?) head football coaches ever. What's the knock against him? Took a while to win the MNCs? Played in a weaker conference (I suspect Oklahoma, Colorado, and Kansas State fans might take exception to that)? I don't know...
Saban because of all his national titles, but who else? Bowden and Paterno have longevity, but nothing close to that kind of consistency. Nor Woody Hayes nor Bo Schembechler. Maybe Fielding Yost in the Michigan era (he made it the Michigan era, after all)? None of the Notre Dame coaches have that kind of longevity. Urban Meyer has had a great run (and, of course, it continues), but looks more like the famous ND coaches when you look at longevity and accomplishments. Bud Wilkinson had neither the consistency nor the longevity. Bear Bryant didn't quite have the consistency, but he had more national titles.
I'm sure there are others I'm leaving out, but based on my faulty memory and a quick perusal of their records, I'm thinking the list looks something like Saban, Bryant, Osborne, Yost, and then the rest.
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I have several very good friends who are Michigan alumni. I can't resist. :-)
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I have several very good friends who are Michigan alumni. I can't resist. :-)
I have a hard time resisting too. You see, the t-shirt fans were nowhere to be found around this (Chicago) area for about 8 years or so, but man they came out in FORCE in 2015. Now I can't find them again. So yeah, I'm not going to resist. I find it fun. Keep it coming.
Michigan Era.
Michigan Era.
Michigan Era.
Michigan Era.
Michigan Era.
Michigan Era.
Michigan Era.
Michigan Era.
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IMHO, the best coach to ever coach at Ohio State was Paul Brown. However, the best Ohio State coach was Woody Hayes.
The difference is semantic, but major. IMHO, Paul Brown was the best football coach ever, period. He won Ohio State's first NC and also won Championships at the HS level (even more mythical than CFB) and in the NFL. If not for WWII, he might have coached at Ohio State for 30 years (like Woody - 28) and if he had, he probably would have won a LOT of MNC's. I say that because he managed one, Ohio State's first, in just three years as HC. Then he got drafted and coached Great Lakes Navy for the duration of WWII before coaching the Cleveland Browns to three NFL Championships in the 50's. He had also won four HS NC's.
When Ohio State reached #1 during the 1942 season, it was the first time they had ever achieved that. Numerous Buckeye players drank bad water prior to the Wisconsin Game (in Madison) and the Buckeyes lost. As I understand it, the team traveled on train cars that had been idled due to the war and were put back in service for the trip apparently with stagnant water in their tanks.
Paul Brown can't be considered the best Ohio State coach because he was only 1-1-1 against Michigan, only won one NC, and never coached a bowl game.
Woody Hayes has to be considered the best Ohio State coach because he won 13 league titles, 3-5 NC's (depends who you ask), went 205-61-10 overall, 152-37-7 in conference, 16-11-1 against Michigan, and won five bowl games including four Rose Bowls.
Paul Brown also endured a 3-6 1943 campaign as one of his three seasons; albeit due to several of the key players signing up for WWII.
Paul Brown's successor, Carrol C Widdows, deserves honorable mention.
In 1944 OSU was undefeated and untied; finishing 2nd in the National polls behind Army.
He followed that up with a 2-loss 1945 campaign, where both losses were to teams that finished in the top ten (Purdue and Michigan).
In 1946, however, he made a cataclysmic mistake by switching titles with his offensive coordinator Paul Bixler, who proceeded to guide the team to a 4-3-2 outing that wound up getting both men canned at seasons end.
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What's the knock against him? Took a while to win the MNCs? Played in a weaker conference (I suspect Oklahoma, Colorado, and Kansas State fans might take exception to that)? I don't know...
took a while to beat Switzer, then overall record vs the Sooners
lost 7 straight bowl games
couldn't win the big one
and yes, perception of Big 2 and little 6 conference
and that he was handed a program at the top built by the Bobfather
but, he did finish strong and may have redeemed himself to most - won last 4 bowl games
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Played in a weaker conference (I suspect Oklahoma, Colorado, and Kansas State fans might take exception to that)?
How'd you guess? :victory:
Like most, Dr. Tom had trouble beating Barry, who toasted TO's Nebraska five straight one time, four straight another time, and just for good measure, three straight yet another.
But, and here's maybe the crucial but, TO did outlast Switzer and routed OU during our pathetic 90s, and ended up with a 13-13 mark all-time vs OU (we'd played twice one year, which is why there are 26 games against OU over his 25 seasons). He even did something very un-Osborne-like and ran up the score in his last two games against OU. Guess he was paying us back for all those hard years where OU knocked him out earlier in his career.
I do want to say as an opposing fan, there's no coach I admire more than Tom Osborne. He's a class act.
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I have a hard time resisting too. You see, the t-shirt fans were nowhere to be found around this (Chicago) area for about 8 years or so, but man they came out in FORCE in 2015. Now I can't find them again. So yeah, I'm not going to resist. I find it fun. Keep it coming.
you sir, just have a hard time resisting...........
you enjoy zinging Huskers, Wolverines, Hoosiers, and especially Gophers!
I'm sure I've left a few off the list.
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I do want to say as an opposing fan, there's no coach I admire more than Tom Osborne. He's a class act.
As a Husker fan, I have more respect and admiration for Doc Tom than any other football coach and most men I've met.
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you sir, just have a hard time resisting...........
you enjoy zinging Huskers, Wolverines, Hoosiers, and especially Gophers!
I'm sure I've left a few off the list.
The Hoosiers off my list now that they Crean'd Tom Crean.
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Stephen Orr Spurrier
122-27-1
.817 win% in 12 seasons
6 conference championships
1996 national championship
Meyer won 2 NCs, but SOS had a higher win% in twice as many seasons. Florida coaches had topped out at a .686 win% (Ray Graves, Galen Hall) before Spurrier came back home in 1990. Spurrier had it all, the ball plays, the swagger, the quips, and the visor. He started at a program under probation and left it as a perennial top 5 program.
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So, Purdue... Well, it's a tough call between Ward Lambert [who coached John Wooden] and has the 1932 national title to his name, or Gene Keady. But I think Matt Painter has the potential to exceed Keady's heights, potentially starting with this year.
Oh, wait... You're talking about football??
In that case, I generally don't go back to the pre-WWII era, although that could give me a reason to claim Elmer Burnham and his stolen national championship (https://www.hammerandrails.com/2018/1/4/16849164/purdue-football-1943-national-champions). And yet another reason to hate Notre Dame.
In the modern era, it's gotta be Mollenkopf or Tiller. I'm going to give it to Mollenkopf because not only did he reach the Rose Bowl, he won it.
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So, Purdue... Well, it's a tough call between Ward Lambert [who coached John Wooden] and has the 1932 national title to his name, or Gene Keady. But I think Matt Painter has the potential to exceed Keady's heights, potentially starting with this year.
Oh, wait... You're talking about football??
In that case, I generally don't go back to the pre-WWII era, although that could give me a reason to claim Elmer Burnham and his stolen national championship (https://www.hammerandrails.com/2018/1/4/16849164/purdue-football-1943-national-champions). And yet another reason to hate Notre Dame.
In the modern era, it's gotta be Mollenkopf or Tiller. I'm going to give it to Mollenkopf because not only did he reach the Rose Bowl, he won it.
Tell us more! I have no idea about any of this except Tiller...
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Well, here's the OU list of coaches:
http://soonerstats.com/football/coaches/ou/index.cfm#.Wl_k6UtG1Bw
We've got four to consider:
Benny Owen - who established a winning tradition at OU in the 1900s-20s
Bud Wilkinson - who established a national championship tradition at OU in the 1940s-60s
Barry Switzer - who reestablished a national championship tradition at OU in the 1970s-80s
Bob Stoops - who reinvigorated both the winning and national level presence at OU during the 2000s-10s
Bud and Barry won three national championships each. Bob won one NC, but has the most wins of all. All three had winning pcts of at least 80% and all three had 10 or more conference championships. And all three had winning records against both Texas and Nebraska. But Benny got the whole thing going. I still think the stadium should be called Owen Field.
So, who's best - you got me.
One worrisome thing about Lincoln Riley. Unlike the four greats listed above, his first name does not start with the letter B. Maybe he should change it to Blinkin' Riley ...
Hard to argue with a 12-2 first year though.
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Well, here's the OU list of coaches:
http://soonerstats.com/football/coaches/ou/index.cfm#.Wl_k6UtG1Bw
We've got four to consider:
Benny Owen - who established a winning tradition at OU in the 1900s-20s
Bud Wilkinson - who established a national championship tradition at OU in the 1940s-60s
Barry Switzer - who reestablished a national championship tradition at OU in the 1970s-80s
Bob Stoops - who reinvigorated both the winning and national level presence at OU during the 2000s-10s
Bud and Barry won three national championships each. Bob won one NC, but has the most wins of all. All three had winning pcts of at least 80% and all three had 10 or more conference championships. And all three had winning records against both Texas and Nebraska. But Benny got the whole thing going. I still think the stadium should be called Owen Field.
So, who's best - you got me.
One worrisome thing about Lincoln Riley. Unlike the four greats listed above, his first name does not start with the letter B. Maybe he should change it to Blinkin' Riley ...
Hard to argue with a 12-2 first year though.
For the longest time, it was Owen Field at Oklahoma Memorial Stadium. Now it's Owen Field at Gaylord Family/Oklahoma Memorial Stadium.
I say it's Bud Wilkinson.
Barry Switzer shades him on winning percentage and total wins, and Bob Stoops has him beat on total wins. But Bud took a program that had fallen from Bennie Owen's 1905-1926 heights (which weren't all that high, winning 68% of the time) to Dewey Luster's 5-5 season in 1945 (and 27-18-3, 59%, overall). And between Owen's departure and Luster's, OU had gone 3-13-1 against Texas.
Wilkinson arrived with Jim Tatum in 1946, and became HFC with Tatum's departure after an 8-3 season. He went 145-29-4 in 17 seasons, with 14 Big 7/8 conference championships and 3 national championships. He had winning streaks of 47 games and 31 games.
The knock on Bud is that the Big 7/8 was a weak conference and that, aside from Texas, which was not at a historic peak, and Notre Dame, he didn't play many good OOC games. Bud went 9-2 vs. Texas in his first 11 seasons, but then lost his last 6 to finish at 9-8. He went 6-2 in bowl games, mostly during the period when the Big 8 only allowed one team to go bowling, and did not allow the same team to appear in consecutive years.
Switzer--whose played in a tougher Big 8 conference--had a 157-29-4 record in 17 seasons. He won 13 conference championships and 3 national championships, but he also lost 3 games in which a win would have given OU at least a split MNC. He went 9-5-2 against Texas, and went 8-5 in bowl games. Switzer inherited a good program from Chuck Fairbanks (77%, 3-1-1 in bowl games), so in that respect, his achievement is a little less impressive than Bud's.
But Switzer's personal behavior and his recruiting violations brought disrepute on OU, so I can't put him as our best coach ever.
Bob Stoops went 80% in a still tougher Big 12 conference in a period of CFB parity, went 9-6 against Texas, and he ran a pretty clean program by P5 standards, but his 9-9 bowl record, and 1-4 record in NC/CFP games put him a notch below Wilkinson and Switzer.
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Yeah, I'm kind of partial to Bud too, if pushed into a corner and forced to pick one. OU in the 1950s, wow, that was one amazing decade for Soonerdom, with 47 straight, etc. Even Darrell Royal would agree!
Wouldn't it be cool if Lincoln Riley outdid them all? I was really thinking that could be a strong possibility, until somewhere toward the end of the 3rd quarter in Pasadena. Now, I'm not so sure, but he's got great coaching instincts, tremendous player rapport, and is SO flippin ridiculously young.
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I'll put the Maryland candidate list out there and let MCWTERPS decide.
Jim Tatum
Jerry Claiborne
Bobby Ross
Ralph Friedgen
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I have to go with Bud for OU.
I too will defer to MCW for Maryland.
I'd go with Ara or Barnett for NU, but Fitz is pretty damn awesome.
Rutgers.. hmmm.. Who was the coach when they invented football?
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For Pitt. Don't really know, maybe someone back in the 30-50s.
WVU: Nehlen. Who sorted of the perfected the "let's make it so we field of squad of 19 seniors in the starting lineup a have have a go about once every 5 years" thing.
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bryant and saban are both pretty well known, so i won't go into them. but pick either and you won't hear much from most bama fans.
wallace wade and frank thomas both deserves some recognition, though.
wade coached bama and set us up as a southern force to be reckoned with. coached first southern team to a rose bowl win, and went 2-0-1 in rose bowls. had 3 undefeated teams in 7 seasons at bama. went on to duke, and coached them to 2 rose bowl appearances, including the only rose bowl not in california (pearl harbor attacks forced them to move it to duke's stadium in durham, nc).
thomas coached at chatanooga before bama, and won at least a share of their conf title all 3 years they were part of a conf (last 3 of 4 years he coached there), not losing a single game in the southern conf. in 15 seasons (including a break in 43 for wwii) he coached bama to 3 undefeated season, 3 rose bowl births (2-1), and 1 cotton (1-0), orange (1-0) and sugar bowls (0-1). 4 sec titles, and finished at #4 in both the first 2 annual ap polls. finished top 10 2 other times, including a 10-0 rose bowl winning season in 1945 at #2 behind undefeated #1 army.
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For Oklahoma, from a distance, Wilkinson seems like the guy. Switzer obviously was awesome, but the scandal and the longevity (not that 15 years is short in CFB, but it's not as long as guys like Wilkinson, Paterno, Bowden, Osborne, etc.).
I love learning about these other coaches (like Owen at OU and Wade at Bama).
On Northwestern, it's an interesting question: do you take the coach who was overall best, or do you--as pointed out for Ohio State--take the coach who was best for Northwestern. If its the latter, it seems like Fitz is a serious contender. If it's the former, this ND fan is partial to Parseghian. Barnett was great at Northwestern, but the scandals at Colorado raise eyebrows. I wonder how much of that was going on in the old days when the media wasn't paying as much attention to such things.
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For Iowa, I would say Howard Jones is the all time greatest coach. He had a record of 42-17-1. He had two undefeated seasons at Iowa and arguably a mythical nation championship in the 1920s.
He previously coached at Yale. Jones later coached USC for about 15-years, and I believe he turned USC into a football powerhouse. He coached one season at Ohio State.
I would say Forest Evashevski is #2 for Iowa with a record of 52-27-4, and also arguably a mythical national championship, plus a 2nd place finish in a separate year in the AP top 20.
Since Iowa is usually a rebuilder program when coaches arrive the winning percentages are not that impressive, but the results ultimately achieved by these two coaches stand out.
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Stephen Orr Spurrier
122-27-1
.817 win% in 12 seasons
6 conference championships
1996 national championship
Meyer won 2 NCs, but SOS had a higher win% in twice as many seasons. Florida coaches had topped out at a .686 win% (Ray Graves, Galen Hall) before Spurrier came back home in 1990. Spurrier had it all, the ball plays, the swagger, the quips, and the visor. He started at a program under probation and left it as a perennial top 5 program.
[perennial] "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya
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I cannot believe the site logged me out when I hit "post" for my ND lineup...sigh. I can't bring myself to recreate, it, but I'll give some highlights: ND's greatest coaches should be ranked in chronological order:
1) Rockne: 13 seasons, .881, three MNCs, made Notre Dame the Notre Dame we know.
2) Leahy: 11 seasons, .855, four MNCs (Michigan fans highly question 1947), took over from fairly successful Layden (one of the Four Horsemen), so didn't have to turn the program around.
3) Parseghian: first of the reclamation projects: 11 seasons, .836, two national titles (MSU fumes about '66), never finished outside of the AP top 15, and was top 10 nine times.
4) Holtz: second reclamation project (after Faust, the high school coach, bombed). 11 years, .765, one MNC (narrowly missed #2 in 1993, "Seminole-gate"). Much tougher era than the earlier three.
#5 is probably Devine, six seasons, .764, one MNC.
Curiously, since Rockne, Kelly is next in winning percentage (.670), and has the fourth longest tenure (going on nine seasons, which puts him ahead of Devine, and behind only Leahy, Parseghian, and Holtz). He is one Alabama whupping (and an angry face) away from ND's pantheon...And there's little doubt he plays in both a more competitive era and with higher academic standards than any of the above (though Holtz will always smart over the administration rejecting Randy Moss).
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[perennial] "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." - Inigo Montoya
Well, Florida is still 3rd in win% since 1990. No, the Gators haven't finished in the top 5 every year, but we've won enough to still be a top program in the country, no?
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Spurrier would clearly be South Carolina's best coach also.
He's the best game day coach I've ever seen. What he did for USCe is more impressive to me than what he did at UF.
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Florida State:
Bobby Bowden, easily. Big winning percentage, 315-98-4. Bigger personality.
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For Oklahoma, from a distance, Wilkinson seems like the guy. Switzer obviously was awesome, but the scandal and the longevity (not that 15 years is short in CFB, but it's not as long as guys like Wilkinson, Paterno, Bowden, Osborne, etc.).
I love learning about these other coaches (like Owen at OU and Wade at Bama).
On Northwestern, it's an interesting question: do you take the coach who was overall best, or do you--as pointed out for Ohio State--take the coach who was best for Northwestern. If its the latter, it seems like Fitz is a serious contender. If it's the former, this ND fan is partial to Parseghian. Barnett was great at Northwestern, but the scandals at Colorado raise eyebrows. I wonder how much of that was going on in the old days when the media wasn't paying as much attention to such things.
Just one nitpick on the OU coaches: Wilkinson and Switzer were each HFC for 17 years.
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For ASU the question should be who's their best all time head football coach NOT named Frank Kush.
Darryl Rogers, who took over after Kush is my pick. Just missed the Rose Bowl a few times but recruited a lot of NFL talent and laid the foundation for Cooper's 1987 Rose Bowl win (and best a solid Switzer-coached OU team with Marcus Dupree in the 1983 Fiesta Bowl.
Snyder definitely should be up there because the ASU team he took over after Marmie was fired was pretty bad and had them this damn close to a MNC 4 years later, but couldn't sustain that success and rather fell back down quite a bit after that 1997 Rose Bowl.
I'd even throw Graham's name in there too. While he never took ASU to any meaningful post-season he still amassed a solid overall record, brought in a MUCH needed culture change after Erickson, and personally spearheaded a massive overhaul of ASU's facilities and stadium. He unquestionably left ASU in a better position than he found it.
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Just for the record, I disagree with the notion that Michigan fans have gone into hiding in Chicago since this past fall. Conversely, Sparty fans certainly did last year only to show their colors again since October, and I haven't seen as much of their gear since Saturday, either....
Anyway, Yost is the most successful coach at Michigan. Obviously it was a different era, but you can't deny the results.
Crisler v Schembechler is close, but I guess I'd give the edge to Schembechler for his longevity of 21 seasons to 10.
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Just one nitpick on the OU coaches: Wilkinson and Switzer were each HFC for 17 years.
Oops. Must have read the data wrong. Where is FTBobs and what did he do with cfbtrivia!?! (Seriously--where did it go?)
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Oops. Must have read the data wrong. Where is FTBobs and what did he do with cfbtrivia!?! (Seriously--where did it go?)
Actually it’s 16 for Barry
Wilkinson 17
Stoops 18
Owen 22
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Just for the record, I disagree with the notion that Michigan fans have gone into hiding in Chicago since this past fall. Conversely, Sparty fans certainly did last year only to show their colors again since October, and I haven't seen as much of their gear since Saturday, either....
Anyway, Yost is the most successful coach at Michigan. Obviously it was a different era, but you can't deny the results.
Crisler v Schembechler is close, but I guess I'd give the edge to Schembechler for his longevity of 21 seasons to 10.
I was more speaking to the period between Lloyd Carr and Jim Harbaugh.
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Duffy was great, but ended in scandal. A big part of his winning was his (and the school's) willingness to go into the south to recruit African American players. I don't want to dock him for that, I feel like he does deserve credit for it, but a big part of that was MSU's willingness to allow him to. It wasn't like it was particularly innovative as much as it was progressive. I actually think it almost has to be Dantonio to elevate the program at a time when so much of what your program was had been so settled, and to do it at a time where MI as a state was losing population. His recruiting base was shrinking, and he grew the program.
Biggie Munn probably did the same thing, and really to a higher level, one that set up Duffy's success, but he was only there for 7 years, and only the last of which was in the Big Ten. He finished with three straight AP top 3 finishes, including MSU's only AP National Championship in 1952. I think if he had stayed longer, it would be him.
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Well, Florida is still 3rd in win% since 1990. No, the Gators haven't finished in the top 5 every year, but we've won enough to still be a top program in the country, no?
"Every season" meaning Summer, Winter, Spring and Fall.
So far, the Gators have only done well in the Fall.
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I cannot believe the site logged me out when I hit "post" for my ND lineup...sigh.
Curiously, since Rockne, Kelly is next in winning percentage (.670), and has the fourth longest tenure (going on nine seasons, which puts him ahead of Devine, and behind only Leahy, Parseghian, and Holtz). He is one Alabama whupping (and an angry face) away from ND's pantheon...And there's little doubt he plays in both a more competitive era and with higher academic standards than any of the above (though Holtz will always smart over the administration rejecting Randy Moss).
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Brian Kelly was the best coach that the Cincinnati Bearcats have ever had.
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Interesting maybe to me, but two names already shown up in Duffy Daugherty and Frank Kush grew up in coal country PA, about 30 minutes from each other. Obviously a decent gap in age between the two, but interesting that they are both from such a small area.
So for Penn State, the obvious is Paterno, right? But I don't think much is known or appreciated about his predecessor, Rip Engle. Penn State had some successes early in the 1900's, but nothing of extraordinary other than a bowl game here and there, but seldom Top 25 finishes under Bob Higgins and Hugo Bezdek (both of whom are in the CFB HOF). Engle really is the one who kickstarted PSU's rise from a 'cow college' to somewhat national prominence, of course of which was taken to new heights under Paterno. But Engle was the guy who ID'd Paterno (coached him at Brown) and Paterno spent some 15 seasons as Engle's top assistant before Engle retired. Engle never had a losing season at PSU and finished in the Top 10 twice, with 5 straight Top 25 finishes in the early 60's before Paterno took over. He too is in the CFB HOF.
If Paterno gets the credit for building the giant that Penn State became, Engle deserves way more credit than he gets for laying the foundation.
Bill O'Brien gets special note for taking over the program at a time when it was truly a toxic job and keeping it relevant. O'Brien had to pick up the scrambled pieces and with the help of a legendary group of seniors he duct taped it back together just enough to keep it alive and then laid the foundation that Franklin could build off of. O'Brien will always been a very special coach to Penn State fans.
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Interesting maybe to me, but two names already shown up in Duffy Daugherty and Frank Kush grew up in coal country PA, about 30 minutes from each other. Obviously a decent gap in age between the two, but interesting that they are both from such a small area.
I'm wondering if maybe that's specifically why Duffy recruited him. Probably still had contacts in the area. Granted you wonder what would have happened if Duffy had thought to offer him an assistant coaches position when he got the MSU job in '54? Instead, his top assistant, Dan Devine, left a year later for the head job at Arizona State, called up his former player, Kush, and then three years later when Devine left for Missouri, Kush got promoted. By the time Duffy stepped down in 1972, Kush would have only been in his mid 40s. I wonder if MSU ever actually reached out to him? I believe he accepted the job at Pitt, to return home, in the late 60s, then changed his mind and went back to ASU, so who knows if they called, and he wasn't interested.
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Looking solely at the individual measuring sticks...
National Championships: Woody Hayes with 5 in 28 years. Paul Brown, Jim Tressel and Urban Meyer have one each.
Gold Pants: Jim Tressel winning 9 out of 10 was the most impressive run. Urban Meyer is off to a 6-0 start.
Rose Bowls: Woody Hayes was 4-4. Tressel, Cooper and Wes Fesler were each 1-0.
Big Ten Titles: Woody Hayes won 13 total in 28 years. Tressel's 7 in ten years is arguably more impressive, as it includes a run of six straight, from 2005-10.
Overall Bowl Record: Urban is off to a 4-2 start. Tressel was 6-4. Wes Fesler's lone bowl game was a Rose Bowl victory.
Heisman Trophy Winners: Woody Hayes had three, Hopalong Cassady in 55, and Archie Griffin in both 74 and 75. There were only two before and two since, each of the four with a different head coach.
Illibuck Trophies: Urban Meyer is off to a 5-0 start. Paul Brown and Carroll Widdoes combined for a perfect 5-0 run vs the Illini (41-45).
Divisional Titles: Urban Meyer. Hands down. He's won at least a share of the Divisional Title every season, so far.
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I'm wondering if maybe that's specifically why Duffy recruited him. Probably still had contacts in the area. Granted you wonder what would have happened if Duffy had thought to offer him an assistant coaches position when he got the MSU job in '54? Instead, his top assistant, Dan Devine, left a year later for the head job at Arizona State, called up his former player, Kush, and then three years later when Devine left for Missouri, Kush got promoted. By the time Duffy stepped down in 1972, Kush would have only been in his mid 40s. I wonder if MSU ever actually reached out to him? I believe he accepted the job at Pitt, to return home, in the late 60s, then changed his mind and went back to ASU, so who knows if they called, and he wasn't interested.
Duffy recruited the Laurel Highlands/WestCentral PA area very heavily, as I understand, during his tenure at MSU.
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Interesting maybe to me, but two names already shown up in Duffy Daugherty and Frank Kush grew up in coal country PA, about 30 minutes from each other. Obviously a decent gap in age between the two, but interesting that they are both from such a small area.
Barry Alvarez is from Langeloth.
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With Osborne's longevity of twenty five seasons, .823 winning percentage, three national titles, three undefeated seasons and three more 1-loss seasons, as well as only losing three games in five years at the end, never lost more than three games or won fewer than nine--in 25 seasons!!--and his contribution to both of Devaney's national title teams as the offensive coordinator...whoa.
Devaney was great, no question; I would put Osborne as #1--but that's a nice argument to be able to have if you're a Nebraska fan.
I never gave Osborne's record all that much thought, but looking at it now, he's got to be one of the top, what..., 3(?) head football coaches ever. What's the knock against him? Took a while to win the MNCs? Played in a weaker conference (I suspect Oklahoma, Colorado, and Kansas State fans might take exception to that)? I don't know...
Saban because of all his national titles, but who else? Bowden and Paterno have longevity, but nothing close to that kind of consistency. Nor Woody Hayes nor Bo Schembechler. Maybe Fielding Yost in the Michigan era (he made it the Michigan era, after all)? None of the Notre Dame coaches have that kind of longevity. Urban Meyer has had a great run (and, of course, it continues), but looks more like the famous ND coaches when you look at longevity and accomplishments. Bud Wilkinson had neither the consistency nor the longevity. Bear Bryant didn't quite have the consistency, but he had more national titles.
I'm sure there are others I'm leaving out, but based on my faulty memory and a quick perusal of their records, I'm thinking the list looks something like Saban, Bryant, Osborne, Yost, and then the rest.
Another way to think about it... UNL has never won a NC without Tom Osborne calling the plays.
I think it is clearly TO over Devaney.
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Interesting to think what things would have been like if Osborne would have arrived in 1962 and Devaney would have been handed the keys in 1973 after a couple national championships
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also.. while I do believe TO was UNL's best coach ever... and Devaney # 2, there have been other great coaches who spent time in Lincoln:
Eddie Robison coached in Lincoln in the 1890's was inducted in the CF hall of fame in 1955
Fielding Yost spent one season coaching UNL in the 1890's - or the time when Michigan was relevant.. heh Hall of Fame CF Coach
Walter Booth only coached for 5 years in the 1900's, but he won 86% of his games (no idea why he quit coaching after only 5 years as a HC)
Dana Bible coached at UNL from 1929-1936 before heading to Texas (he was at A&M before UNL). He was also inducted into the CF hall of fame for coaching
Biff Jones coached at UNL from 1937-1941. He is one of 6 HC at UNL who ended up in the CF hall of fame (for coaching)
and that doesn't count Edward Stiehlm who won 93% of his games from 1911-1915 before leaving to coach at Indiana. He died young at the age of 37 due to cancer.
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going forward........
Scott Frost won more national coach of the years awards last season than Devaney and Osborne combined
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going forward........
Scott Frost won more national coach of the years awards last season than Devaney and Osborne combined
wow.. I didn't realize that.
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well, there are many more awards these days
kinda like bowl games
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Now if this question was about current coaches in the program.. no question.... John Cook. =)
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Bill Straub comes in second
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"Every season" meaning Summer, Winter, Spring and Fall.
So far, the Gators have only done well in the Fall.
Right, football season.
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Actually it’s 16 for Barry
Wilkinson 17
Stoops 18
Owen 22
Dang! You're right, Fred. I must have been giving Barry credit for 1972, which was Chuck Fairbanks' last year. ~???
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I cannot believe the site logged me out when I hit "post" for my ND lineup...sigh. I can't bring myself to recreate, it . . . .
Did you try clicking the back-arrow on your browser, SF? I've lost posts before too, but sometimes I remember to go backward and recover the un-posted message. And sometimes it works.
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Dang! You're right, Fred. I must have been giving Barry credit for 1972, which was Chuck Fairbanks' last year. ~???
Barry and Tom both started in 73
how would both careers be different if Barry would have stayed 25 years?
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OU might still be on probation? :)
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going forward........
Scott Frost won more national coach of the years awards last season than Devaney and Osborne combined
Yep, COY awards do not in a fact measure great coaching. They measure accomplishment relative to situation.
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The coach that was sposda suck, but didn't.
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Frosty has quite a situation in Lincoln today
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Frosty has quite a situation in Lincoln today
?
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sorry, didn't mean to imply there was trouble
should have said, next season
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Did you try clicking the back-arrow on your browser, SF? I've lost posts before too, but sometimes I remember to go backward and recover the un-posted message. And sometimes it works.
I did. It was gone. Sigh.
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I did. It was gone. Sigh.
Very sad. What could have been the start of a Pulitzer Prize-winning essay, or the next Moby-Dick, into the ether.
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Very sad. What could have been the start of a Pulitzer Prize-winning essay, or the next Moby-Dick, into the ether.
More likely the next Moby Dick. As I look at what I ended up with, I probably saved you all some time. :-)