CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: ELA on January 08, 2018, 08:35:12 AM
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| | FIRST TEAM | | |
QB | | J.T. Barrett | | Ohio State |
RB | | Saquon Barkley | | Penn State |
RB | | Jonathan Taylor | | Wisconsin |
WR | | D.J. Moore | | Maryland |
WR | | Simmie Cobbs | | Indiana |
TE | | Mike Gesecki | | Penn State |
T | | Jamarco Jones | | Ohio State |
G | | Beau Benzschawel | | Wisconsin |
C | | Billy Price | | Ohio State |
G | | Michael Jordan | | Ohio State |
T | | David Edwards | | Wisconsin |
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DL | | Maurice Hurst | | Michigan |
DL | | Nick Bosa | | Ohio State |
DL | | Tyquan Lewis | | Ohio State |
DL | | Rashan Gary | | Michigan |
LB | | | | |
LB | | | | |
LB | | | | |
DB | | | | |
DB | | | | |
DB | | | | |
DB | | | | |
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K | | | | |
P | | | | |
RET | | | | |
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| | SECOND TEAM | | |
QB | | Trace McSorley | | Penn State |
RB | | J.K. Dobbins | | Ohio State |
RB | | Justin Jackson | | Northwestern |
WR | | Stanley Morgan | | Nebraska |
WR | | J.D. Spielman | | Nebraska |
TE | | Troy Fumagalli | | Wisconsin |
T | | Michael Dieter | | Wisconsin |
G | | Ben Bredeson | | Michigan |
C | | Brian Allen | | Michigan State |
G | | Sean Welsh | | Iowa |
T | | Mason Cole | | Michigan |
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DL | | Chase Winovich | | Michigan |
DL | | Sam Hubbard | | Ohio State |
DL | | Alec James | | Wisconsin |
DL | | | | |
LB | | | | |
LB | | | | |
LB | | | | |
DB | | | | |
DB | | | | |
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I went with one of the All-Americans (the red one) but either one of those should be 1 and/or 2 here.
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Nope.
I have no idea how you qualify these entries ELA, but there is absolutely no reason that TJ Edwards should be on this list before any of Ja'Whaun Bentley, TJ McCollum, or Markus Bailey. I could even make a pretty solid argument for Bailey over Tegray Scales.
(and yes, I know he's an All-Big Ten Pick by the media, that still doesn't make it right)
If you want to argue that Purdue's defensive line was not good enough to not even get a mention in the All-Big-Ten votes, I think you're wrong, but you at least have a decent argument. There is no argument for excluding them from the linebacking group.
The Purdue linebackers in their last game held the Arizona rush offense, who was 4th in the nation and averaging over 300 yards a game, to 128 yards. That was all because of Bentley, McCollum, and Bailey.
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I use the All-Big Ten teams, same as I always have.
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In fairness, I owe you an apology. I was mistaken, your 8th defensive line choices did actually include Gelen Robinson.
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Went with Jewel
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I'll take the Unanimous All-American, Jewell.
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Nope.
I have no idea how you qualify these entries ELA, but there is absolutely no reason that TJ Edwards should be on this list before any of Ja'Whaun Bentley, TJ McCollum, or Markus Bailey. I could even make a pretty solid argument for Bailey over Tegray Scales.
(and yes, I know he's an All-Big Ten Pick by the media, that still doesn't make it right)
If you want to argue that Purdue's defensive line was not good enough to not even get a mention in the All-Big-Ten votes, I think you're wrong, but you at least have a decent argument. There is no argument for excluding them from the linebacking group.
The Purdue linebackers in their last game held the Arizona rush offense, who was 4th in the nation and averaging over 300 yards a game, to 128 yards. That was all because of Bentley, McCollum, and Bailey.
“Absolutely no reason”
Break this down for me. No reason? Like at all? I mean, the coaches didn’t see fit to put any of them in the top 9 in the league, that seems like a reason.
The case against Edwards would I guess be that he’s more of a coverage LB? Tackle numbers are pretty decent. TFL and sacks are low, but Bentley and McCollum are in that boat.
The Purdue case really comes down to the fact Purdue’s Run defense was great at stopping the run on a down-to-down basis and OK at preventing big runs. The Boilers can’t claim a top defense in the big ten, or maybe in the top half of the conference. The sacks make Bailey the best award candidate, but it’s a pitch that’s beyond numbers. And I’m that case you need the defense to be very good, but Purdue’s is only very good in terms of one aspect (plus improvement I guess)
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“Absolutely no reason”
Break this down for me. No reason? Like at all? I mean, the coaches didn’t see fit to put any of them in the top 9 in the league, that seems like a reason.
The case against Edwards would I guess be that he’s more of a coverage LB? Tackle numbers are pretty decent. TFL and sacks are low, but Bentley and McCollum are in that boat.
The Purdue case really comes down to the fact Purdue’s Run defense was great at stopping the run on a down-to-down basis and OK at preventing big runs. The Boilers can’t claim a top defense in the big ten, or maybe in the top half of the conference. The sacks make Bailey the best award candidate, but it’s a pitch that’s beyond numbers. And I’m that case you need the defense to be very good, but Purdue’s is only very good in terms of one aspect (plus improvement I guess)
So, your whole argument is predicated on the overall team defense, and not individual performance? That would make sense if this list were only OSU / PSU / WI / MI players, but the fact that Iowa and NW (which had relatively the same overall defensive ability) had representatives, but Purdue did not, kinda kills that.
If this list were about team defensive performance, Wisconsin wins. No doubt in my mind.
But we are talking specifically about the linebackers. The linebackers job is to defend to run, fill the gaps in the defensive line, throw occasional blitzes, and defend the pass in short yardage situations. The fact that Purdue DB's and Safeties were crap and was the difference between Purdue being middle of the Big Ten defense and a top 3 defense, should not be considered as a reason that one LB is better than another.
Let's look at Edwards and Bentley. You claim Edwards was more of a coverage LB....
Passes Broken Up:
Edwards - 7
Bentley - 3 (and Edwards played two more games)
That's not exactly glowing evidence that Edwards was spending significantly more time as a coverage option. Maybe if you can find a "passes defended" statistic we can look a little more deeply into that one, but.....
Yes, he did have 4 interceptions, compared to Bentley's 1, but I can also throw in Bentley's two fumbles forced compared to Edwards 0 (and 2 less games) and that one's pretty much a wash.
All tackling statistical categories, Bentley wins.
Solo tackles
Assisted tackles
Tackles for Loss
Sacks - Edwards 2, Bentley 1
(all with two less games)
Bailey was fairly comparable too if you want me to break down the numbers. McCollum not so much, but he had injury issues and only played ten games, so you can't really argue about his stats (likely would have stolen stats from the others)
So, yeah. Outside of including McCollum over Edwards, I'll stand by my statement.
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So, your whole argument is predicated on the overall team defense, and not individual performance? That would make sense if this list were only OSU / PSU / WI / MI players, but the fact that Iowa and NW (which had relatively the same overall defensive ability) had representatives, but Purdue did not, kinda kills that.
If this list were about team defensive performance, Wisconsin wins. No doubt in my mind.
But we are talking specifically about the linebackers. The linebackers job is to defend to run, fill the gaps in the defensive line, throw occasional blitzes, and defend the pass in short yardage situations. The fact that Purdue DB's and Safeties were crap and was the difference between Purdue being middle of the Big Ten defense and a top 3 defense, should not be considered as a reason that one LB is better than another.
Let's look at Edwards and Bentley. You claim Edwards was more of a coverage LB....
Passes Broken Up:
Edwards - 7
Bentley - 3 (and Edwards played two more games)
That's not exactly glowing evidence that Edwards was spending significantly more time as a coverage option. Maybe if you can find a "passes defended" statistic we can look a little more deeply into that one, but.....
Yes, he did have 4 interceptions, compared to Bentley's 1, but I can also throw in Bentley's two fumbles forced compared to Edwards 0 (and 2 less games) and that one's pretty much a wash.
All tackling statistical categories, Bentley wins.
Solo tackles
Assisted tackles
Tackles for Loss
Sacks - Edwards 2, Bentley 1
(all with two less games)
Bailey was fairly comparable too if you want me to break down the numbers. McCollum not so much, but he had injury issues and only played ten games, so you can't really argue about his stats (likely would have stolen stats from the others)
So, yeah. Outside of including McCollum over Edwards, I'll stand by my statement.
My whole argument is based on, what's the hook? When you're arguing the media and coaches missed the boat, I need some sort of thing to say, "wow, I didn't consider it." The three guys have solid enough statistics, but outside the one with seven sacks, no real huge play-making numbers. The tackles are fine, but blow no one away.
So we might have to look at team stuff. As I can see it, I can find a couple really good advanced stats to use as hooks. Using one game seems like a tricky one, especially since I'd have to do a little film work to see how all three were used against that kind of offense. I dunno. I guess you're telling me it should be obvious these guys are among the league's best, and I'm asking, what is the reason I should believe that.
(Edwards broke up or picked off more than twice as many passes a game as Bentley. Seems like it would mean something. Again, I wasn't saying there's no chance they're better than Edwards, but couldn't find ground to argue there was "absolutely no reason" those two should've jumped him. That absolutely thing makes me think there's something ironclad, and I'm asking, help me see what it is. My standard of proof isn't that high, it it's a wash isn't doing it for me)