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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: SFBadger96 on January 03, 2018, 03:01:13 PM
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Seeking thoughts on the All-time Badger teams list. I have personal memories of all but the first two.
Don't know much about them but the records:
1942: AP#3, 8-2, beat #1 Ohio State at Camp Randall, lost 6-0 to Iowa; didn't win the conference championship. World War II era, and no bowl.
1962: AP#2, 8-2, lost classic 1 vs. 2 Rose Bowl to USC, falling just short in a 4th quarter comeback bid (42-37); the comeback was so strong, some Wisconsin fans remember the game as a win. Beat #1 Northwestern at Camp Randall, 37-6, then beat #5 Minnesota, 14-9. Lost at Ohio State, 14-7. Beat unranked Notre Dame as well. Conference champions.
Followed along with them:
1993: AP #6, 10-1-1, won Rose Bowl 21-16 over #13 (AP) UCLA. Beat #24 Michigan 13-10 at Camp Randall, tied #3 Ohio State 14-14 at Camp Randall (augh, watched them miss (get blocked) the potential winning field goal), beat #25 Michigan State 41-20 in last game of the season; lost to last-place Minnesota in the Metrodome (augh; I was there for that turnover-fed meltdown, too). Balanced team with a punishing 1-2 running attack (Moss/Fletcher), game manager QB (Bevell), and a bend-but-don't break defense. Conference co-champions with Ohio State.
1998: AP#6, 11-1, won Rose Bowl 38-31 over heavily favored and just-missed on national title hopes #6 UCLA (had been #2 headed into final week 49-45 loss at Miami). Badgers remember this as the team called the "worst team to ever play in the Rose Bowl." Lost 27-10 at #15 Michigan, beat #14 Penn State 24-3 at Camp Randall. Ron Dayne at his peak, was nearly unstoppable--UCLA sure couldn't stop him. Decent defense. Conference co-champions with Ohio State.
1999: AP #4, 10-2, won Rose Bowl,17-9 over #22 Stanford. Beat #12 Ohio State (didn't turn out #12) 42-10 in Columbus, #25 Minnesota 20-17 in Minneapolis, #11 Michigan State 40-10 at Camp Randall, and #17 Purdue, 28-21 in West Lafeyette; lost to #4 Michigan, 21-16 in Camp Randall, the week after inexplicably losing to Cincinatti in Cincinatti, 17-12. Bollinger was made the starting QB after the Michigan game, I think. Dayne was a beast in his senior year, and the Wendell Bryant-led defense was stout. Conference champions.
2006: AP #7, 12-1, won Capital One (Citrus) Bowl 17-14 over heavily favored Arkansas, using team defensive speed to slow down Darren McFadden and Felix Jones. Went 11-1 in the regular season, but lost to the only ranked team they played, #6 Michigan 27-13 in Ann Arbor (the Badgers beat Penn State, which ended the season #24). John Stocco was the quintessential game-managing quarterback, and P.J. Hill was probably the most system of any Badger "system backs." Bielema's first season as head coach.
2010: AP #7, 10-2, lost Rose bowl 21-19 to #3 TCU when failed 2-pt conversion to tie at the end. Beat #1 Ohio State 31-18 at Camp Randall, #13 Iowa 31-30 at Kinnick, lost to #24 (finished 14) Michigan State 34-24 in East Lansing. Tolzein was a game-managing senior QB who played beyond people's expectations, John Clay with James White and Montee Ball formed a three-headed running monster, with each coming up huge when needed, and JJ Watt anchored a solid defense. Co-conference champions with Michigan State (that must still fry MSU fans).
2011: AP #10, 11-3, lost Rose Bowl 45-38 to #4 Oregon in a wild game where the defenses just decided not to show up (mostly). Beat #8 Nebraska 48-17 at Camp Randall, #20 Penn State 45-7 at Camp Randall, and came from behind to beat #11 Michigan State 42-39 in the Conference Championship when a punt return for MSU that looked to win the game was called back on running into the kicker. In back to back weeks lost at MSU 37-31 on a Hail Mary that after being caught barely broke the plane, then at Ohio State 33-29, on a broken play bomb in the final 20-or so seconds. Explosive offense (probably best Badger offense ever) with Russell Wilson team throwing to Nick Toon, Jared Abbredaris, and Jacob Pederson, Montee Ball, James White, and Melvin Gordon running on everyone behind a beastly offensive line. Despite Chris Borland and Aaron Henry, not a particularly strong defense. Conference champions.
2017: AP #6, 13-1, won Orange Bowl 34-24 over #10 Miami. First perfect regular season ever (12-0/9-0), but played in a weak Big Ten West. Beat #25 Iowa 38-14 at Camp Randall, #19 Michigan, 24-10 at Camp Randall, but lost to #5 Ohio State in the conference championship game, 27-21. One of the best defenses the Badgers have had with tons of team speed, but less heft in the middle than people are used to, with a mediocre offense behind a developing, but interception-prone quarterback Hornibrook, and freshman phenom Jonathan Taylor.
So how do they rank all-time?
Of the ones in my lifetime, I'm currently trending 1999, 2010, 2017 as 1, 2, 3. 2011 had the best offense, but not a great defense; I think 2017 had the best defense. 2006 is often overlooked, but was similar to the balanced 1994 and 2017 teams. No, they didn't play anyone, but it was a senior-quarterback-led, pretty solid team all the way around. With both 1999 and 2011 there's a lingering, "what could have been" thought for a lot of Badger fans (in 2011, what if Watt had stuck around for his senior year?). Maybe we'll end up feeling that way about 2017, too, though I tend to think this team performed pretty close to its ceiling.
And where to '62 and '42 fit in? Different eras, hard to say. Maybe they were the best (by AP ranking they were). '62 went toe-to-toe with the national champs in the national champs' back yard. That's got to be worth something. I think they get the nod as #1. '42? I just don't know, and suspect the rankings were Yankee-skewed, and that the football just wasn't as good during the war.
Thoughts? What about your best teams (lifetime and otherwise)?
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I'd put '98 at the top by a solid margin, then 2011, 1999, 2017, 1993 to round out the top 5.
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Speaking of this, this would be a fun off season theme for this year. Maybe do 2 weeks per team?
What say ye?
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as an outsider, I'd go with this season's team as the best Badger team
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The 14 Big Ten Titles were 1896, 97, 1901, 06, 12, 52, 59, 62, 93, 98, 99, 2010, 2011, 2012
1901, 06 and 12 were undefeated and untied.
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The 14 Big Ten Titles were 1896, 97, 1901, 06, 12, 52, 59, 62, 93, 98, 99, 2010, 2011, 2012
1901, 06 and 12 were undefeated and untied.
I'd rather not go back to the pre-WWII days. I'll leave that to others who reside here. :)
Maybe start from when the 85 scholarship limit took effect?
It's tough for me to decide. I think all of the ones SF posted have merit. I'd add 2016 to the discussion as well.
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The 14 Big Ten Titles were 1896, 97, 1901, 06, 12, 52, 59, 62, 93, 98, 99, 2010, 2011, 2012
1901, 06 and 12 were undefeated and untied.
The 2012 conference champions, despite massacring Nebraska 70-31 (!!!) in the championship game finished 8-6 and only played in the conference championship because Ohio State and Penn State were both ineligible. That team doesn't belong on this list (though that game would make a list of greatest games). And I'm with Badge, teams that won conference championships during Michigan's national title heyday are hard to think too much about. ;-)
No one talks much about the '52 and '59 teams (both lost the Rose Bowl), so I assume they just weren't as good. The '42 and '62 teams still come up during Badger trivia discussions.
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I'd add 2016 to the discussion as well.
That's fair, though I put 2016 in a similar category to 2004 and 2005: teams that, at their best, were really, really good, but just didn't put it together enough to crack the very top echelon. That 2005 team (Alvarez's last)...what it did to a very good Auburn team in the Capital One Bowl was impressive, even if Auburn, "didn't want to be there." Another of those "best games." Speaking of what-ifs: what if Calhoun had returned for his senior season (in 2006). He was not a "system" back.
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This topic is already on the "All Time Great Non-NC Teams" thread. I tried giving it a B10-heavy slant to begin with, then spread it out around the country.
Not much participation, though. Whether a team won the NC or not, there are many non-NC squads that were great.
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That's fair, though I put 2016 in a similar category to 2004 and 2005: teams that, at their best, were really, really good, but just didn't put it together enough to crack the very top echelon. That 2005 team (Alvarez's last)...what it did to a very good Auburn team in the Capital One Bowl was impressive, even if Auburn, "didn't want to be there." Another of those "best games." Speaking of what-ifs: what if Calhoun had returned for his senior season (in 2006). He was not a "system" back.
Calhoun could have put that 2006 team over the top for sure.
2011 with Watt would have been amazing. I wish he stayed, but it made sense for him..
Anyway, it's hard to throw a Hail Mary pass when you're on your back with #99 on top of you.
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I'm voting 1998 w a gap to the others.
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The other thread only went back to the 70s.
This one goes back as far as 1945.
During that stretch there were zero undefeated Badger teams.
One loss: 1951, 58, 93, 98, 2006 and 17
Two loss: 1954 and 62
Double digit wins: 1993, 98, 99, 2005, 06, 09, 10, 11, 14, 15, 16 and 17
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from SFbadger:
Once upon a time I had a really well-considered evaluation of the top Badger teams of all time. '62 was near if not the top. But they lost to #1 USC in the Rose Bowl. Ouch. I think the '99 team was better than the '98 team, record notwithstanding, and I think both may have been better than '93. Tough call. Of the more recent teams, '06 (Bielema's 1-loss team) was good, but not that good. The 2010 and 2011 teams are the hardest for me to swallow, but mostly because they didn't win their Rose Bowls, but should have (to be fair, Oregon and TCU were really good, too--I'm sure their fans would dispute the "should have" comment).
In 2010, the Tolzein-as-a-senior led Badgers lost to a very good (11-2) Michigan State team in East Lansing in a game that I still remember being brutal to watch. I think that was the game Bielema was penalized in, costing the team momentum and a chance, but maybe I'm just looking for something to pin on him. The Badgers shouldn't have lost to TCU in the Rose Bowl, and had a chance to tie it in the end, but failed. TCU was good, but Chryst (the OC at the time) tried to get too cute, rather than just running the much bigger Badger offense straight into TCU's middle. Once the Badgers did that, they started their ultimately *just short* comeback (not unlike 1962 vs. USC).
2011 was that one glorious year with Russell Wilson. The football GODs shined on Madison when Wilson decided to go there, but took their vengeance in each of the three losses. In two, at Michigan State and at Ohio State, the Badgers gave up hail Marys to lose on (effectively) the game's final play (Ohio State's was with 20 second left, but whatever). Each is still painful to this day. At least Michigan State was a good team. Ohio State wasn't even good that year, and that stupid bomb on a broken play beat us (that "us" is just for Badge (https://www.cfb51.com/Smileys/fantasticsmileys/wink.gif)). And then the loss to Oregon in the Rose Bowl in a game that basically had no defense (actually it had some, but not enough). Jared Abbredaris, who was as sure handed as WRs come, fumbled the ball as he was going out of bounds late in the 4th quarter and the ball inexplicably stuck like velcro to the grass instead of following the momentum out of bounds. The ball bounces funny, except when it doesn't bounce, which was *funny.* The Badgers still had a chance to come back from one score down when Wilson made a mistake in clock management and the Badgers ran out of time.
Maybe it's that shiny offenses are easier to appreciate than fantastic defenses, but that 2011 team felt like it could have beaten anyone...except that three times it didn't. Seems funny to rate a 10-3 team so highly among the great Wisconsin teams, but Russell Wilson, Montee Ball, James White, Chris Borland, Peter Konz, Kevin Zeitler, Aaron Henry... they were good.
This year's team deserves a mention--and we'll see what they do in the Orange Bowl. If I had to pick a team that at it's peak was the best, I would choose between 2011 and 1999 (once Bollinger became the starter), and probably give the nod to '99, but not without hedging a lot.
'99 had Bollinger under center, Dayne with Bennett as his backup, Tauscher and McIntosh on the line, and Wendell Bryant, Doering, Echols, and Fletcher on defense. That was a really good team.
Honorable mention for what could have been: in 2008 the team really, really talented (except for at QB), and it stunk, 7-6 with a blowout loss to Florida State in the Outback Bowl. Chemistry and leadership matter.
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Wendell Bryant was just one of those guys who was unblockable. Like 9-10 times a game, he's in the backfield as they're snapping the ball.
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During that 2011 Rose Bowl, I'm not sure why everyone thinks the Badgers didn't try to run on TCU. They absolutely did throughout most of the game. The run vs pass plays wasn't suddenly skewed to favor pass per badger norms either. Yes, you can question the specific play the Badgers tried on the 2pt conversion but even then if it weren't for one TCU player (Tank Carder) being in the right place the at the right time that pass would have easily hit the numbers of an uncovered badger in the end zone.
TCU won that game not because Wisconsin suddenly abandoned the run but because TCU had timely stops on 3rd down, limited big plays, and won the field position battle all game long and with all that it was close as it gets.
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Nick Toon dropping passes didn't help either. Dammit.
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During that 2011 Rose Bowl, I'm not sure why everyone thinks the Badgers didn't try to run on TCU. They absolutely did throughout most of the game. The run vs pass plays wasn't suddenly skewed to favor pass per badger norms either. Yes, you can question the specific play the Badgers tried on the 2pt conversion but even then if it weren't for one TCU player (Tank Carder) being in the right place the at the right time that pass would have easily hit the numbers of an uncovered badger in the end zone.
TCU won that game not because Wisconsin suddenly abandoned the run but because TCU had timely stops on 3rd down, limited big plays, and won the field position battle all game long and with all that it was close as it gets.
I remember that darned Tank Carder guy. And I remember that the Badgers committed more to running between the tackles in the second half, and it started working. In the first half I remember a lot of "balance" and outside runs, which weren't working. It's possible that I'm mis-remembering that, but memories can be like that...
So because of my faulty memory (it is faulty; it was the 3rd quarter that the play calling was bad), I just went and looked at the game and the drive charts. There was only one set of downs in the game that the Badgers ran on first down and didn't score or pick up a first down; that was on the missed field goal (sigh)--and on that first down, Tolzien muffed then recovered the snap. Twice the Badgers kicked field goals after running on first down. At the end of the half, the Badgers settled for a (successful) field goal on 4th and 1 after only getting two yards on two runs, then picking up seven on a pass; with only four seconds left, there was no choice but to kick the ball; poor time management or poor play calling? Maybe both. Also, TCU never stopped the Badgers on a drive in which Wisconsin had 3rd and 5 or fewer yards to go (there was a stop on 3rd and 3, but the Badgers converted on 4th and 1). The Badgers twice had a 4th and 1 (with more than :04 seconds in the half); they converted on one, but punted when it was 4th and 1 from their own 12. I think this is why we were mostly perplexed at the play call on the 2-point conversion, although to be fair, it was a good call and an even better defensive play from Carder to bat it down. The tight end was wide open...as long as Tolzien got it over the defensive line--he didn't.
Conversely, on each of the three sets of downs that ended with a punt, the Badgers attempted passes on first down. That's not to say that every time the Badgers passed on first down it went badly, but the odds were dramatically different. Out of eight times the Badgers attempted a pass on first down, six ended in incompletions or a sack (5/1), and on three of those sets of downs, the Badgers punted. I believe the Badgers had negative yards on designed runs on first down twice, including the fumbled snap play and one other -1. In short, on first down the pass was a gamble, the run was not.
One thing that strikes me about that game was the limited number of possessions. There weren't a lot of extra drives...except when the Badgers went three straight punt possessions (all in the second half)--passing on first down on each set of downs preceeding the punts.
So what I think Badger fans remember about that game (and misremember) is thinking, "Why is Chryst calling for passes on first down, when the runs almost universally work?" And Toon did drop a wide open ball on about TCU's 2 before Welch kicked the first field goal in the first half.
And I remember TCU being a very good team. As a Badger fan, I think Wisconsin should have won that game. But as I noted in the thread that OAM quoted, I'm sure TCU fans (and Oregon fans) see things differently.
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Speaking of this, this would be a fun off season theme for this year. Maybe do 2 weeks per team?
What say ye?
I like that idea, but we're going to come up a little short on some of the schools. I've yet to see a Rutgers poster make it over here.
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I like that idea, but we're going to come up a little short on some of the schools. I've yet to see a Rutgers poster make it over here.
Rutgers is a bit tougher because they haven't been in the league long, so I don't know how many posters know more than "they were pretty decent when Schiano and Rice were there." But we have Maryland and Nebraska posters, and I think for the other schools we are all more than qualified to discuss them.