CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: medinabuckeye1 on December 09, 2020, 03:40:08 PM
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Now that the six game minimum has been eliminated the Buckeyes and Wildcats will play in the B1GCG in Indianapolis (noon, FOX).
Where are the other games going to be played and who will play in them?
Will any or all of Indiana, Purdue, and Michigan be available to play a game?
Will UW and MN forego the "Champions Week" cross-over and play each other for the Axe instead? If they do, which two B1G-E teams will do the same thing?
Indiana will be #2 in the B1G-E so they theoretically should play B1G-W #2 Iowa but what if they and Purdue ask the B1G for a waiver so that they can play their traditional in-state rivalry against Purdue for the Old Oaken Bucket?
B1G-E final standings (assuming tOSU, M, and IU do not play and the rest all play):
- 5-0 tOSU
- 6-1 Indiana
- 3-2 Maryland (if they beat RU)
- 3-4 Michigan State (if they beat PSU)
- 2-3 Maryland (if they lose to RU)
- 3-5 Penn State (if they beat MSU)
- 3-5 Rutgers (if they beat UMD)
- 2-4 Michigan
- 2-5 Michigan State (if they lose to PSU)
- 2-6 Penn State (if they lose to MSU)
- 2-6 Rutgers (if they lose to UMD)
B1G-W final standings (assuming PU does not play and the rest all play):
- 6-1 or 5-2 Northwestern (potentially a lower winning percentage than Iowa but H2H trumps % if losses are equal per B1G rules for 2020
- 6-2 or 5-3 Iowa
- 3-2 Wisconsin (if they beat Iowa)
- 3-3 Minnesota (if they beat UNL)
- 3-4 Illinois (if they beat NU)
- 3-4 Nebraska (if they beat MN)
- 2-3 Wisconsin (if they lose to IA)
- 2-4 Minnesota (if they lose to UNL)
- 2-4 Purdue
- 2-5 Illinois (if they lose to NU)
- 2-5 Nebraska (if they lose to MN)
B1GCG:
tOSU vs NU
#2 game:
Indiana vs Iowa
#3 game:
B1G-E:
- Maryland if they beat RU or if they and MSU both lose.
- MSU if they beat PSU AND UMD loses to RU.
B1G-W:
- Wisconsin if they beat IA, or
- Minnesota if they beat UNL, or
- Illinois if they beat NU, or
- Nebraska if they beat MN
#4 game:
B1G-E:
- Penn State if they beat MSU, or
- Maryland if they lose to RU, or
- MSU
B1G-W:
- Minnesota if they and Wisconsin both win, or
- Illinois if they win, UW wins, and MN loses, or
- Nebraska if they win, UW wins, MN loses, and IL loses
. . .
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Its probably a moot point since Indy and Wiscy won't want to play in a rematch, but...
Wouldn't Wiscy be considered #2 in the West if they beat Iowa?
2 losses is better than 3 losses, right?
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What about Legends week matchups?
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Its probably a moot point since Indy and Wiscy won't want to play in a rematch, but...
Wouldn't Wiscy be considered #2 in the West if they beat Iowa?
2 losses is better than 3 losses, right?
I don't think so. The CG rule (which I assume they would use) starts with winning percentage then there is an exception for teams with the same # of losses but different # of wins. That doesn't come into play.
You would have:
- 5-3 Iowa .625
- 3-2 Wisconsin. 600
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Some theories.
It may make sense for Indy and Purdue to play during champions week, not just because of the long rivalry, but because both teams were having COVID problems this week, so there is a chance their games might get canceled again. So might as well pair them up.
It also makes sense for Minny and Wiscy to try to reschedule their game for champions week. Keeping that long streak alive of the 2 teams playing every year.
It might also make sense for MD to try to reschedule 1 of its games that got canceled, either against MSU or Mich.
So let's see what we got.
1. OSU-NW
2. Indy-Purdue
3. Wiscy-Minny
4 Iowa vs Mich/Rut
5. MD vs. Mich/MSU
6. PSU vs. ILL
7. Mich/Rut/MSU vs. Neb
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I would love to see the Axe game played next weekend.
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I would love to see the Axe game played next weekend.
This and everything that @LittlePig (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1540) said above makes a whole lot of sense to me. If the Buckeyes were NOT in the CG, I would prefer to maintain the rivalry with Michigan rather than to play a B1G-W team that tOSU has less history with. Will it happen, who knows.
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Even with OSU in the Big Ten CCG, I would still prefer to get THE GAME in if at all possible.
The years in my sig line aren't Big Ten titles. They are the years that OSU defeated the Wolverines on the gridiron.
THE GAME is bigger than the conference title race, imo.
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Even with OSU in the Big Ten CCG, I would still prefer to get THE GAME in if at all possible.
The years in my sig line aren't Big Ten titles. They are the years that OSU defeated the Wolverines on the gridiron.
THE GAME is bigger than the conference title race, imo.
I probably would have agreed with that sentiment back when I was in school and John Cooper was losing to Michigan every year. At the end of the day, however, the game became what it was BECAUSE it was so often played for a league title not the other way around.
If Michigan and Ohio State had the exact same history amongst themselves but much lesser histories overall the game would still mean a LOT to you and I and other tOSU and Michigan fans but it wouldn't be such a big deal beyond that.
Going back 40 years to 1980, years when tOSU and Michigan played for the league title (where both were playing for the title and no other teams were involved):
- 2007: tOSU came in 6-1 (lost to IL). Michigan came in 6-1 (lost to UW). Next best was IL at 5-2 so the winner was guaranteed an outright league title. Ohio State won, went to the BCSNCG, and lost to LSU.
- 2006: Both teams came in 7-0. Next best was UW at 6-1 so the winner was guaranteed an outright league title. Ohio State won, went to the BCSNCG, and lost to UF.
- 2003: Michigan came in 6-1 (lost to IA). Ohio State came in 6-1 (lost to UW). Next best was Purdue at 5-2 so the winner was guaranteed an outright league title. Michigan won, went to the Rose Bowl, and lost to USC.
- 1986: tOSU came in 7-0. Michigan came in 6-1 (lost to MN). Next best was Minnesota at 5-2 so the winner was guaranteed an outright (tOSU) or shared (M) league title and the RB berth. Michigan won then proceeded to lose to an ASU team coached by some guy named John Cooper.
- 1980: Michigan came in 7-0. tOSU came in 7-0. Michigan won then won the RB over UW.
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With a vacated 2010 title, and an undefeated 2012 season with the Big Ten Title going instead to the third place team in the division, it is my contention that Big Ten Titles are no longer worth the trophy they are engraved on.
Let Indiana and Northwestern play for it, and give me THE GAME.
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This and everything that @LittlePig (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1540) said above makes a whole lot of sense to me. If the Buckeyes were NOT in the CG, I would prefer to maintain the rivalry with Michigan rather than to play a B1G-W team that tOSU has less history with. Will it happen, who knows.
makes too much sense. The Commish won't allow it.
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I probably would have agreed with that sentiment back when I was in school and John Cooper was losing to Michigan every year. At the end of the day, however, the game became what it was BECAUSE it was so often played for a league title not the other way around.
If Michigan and Ohio State had the exact same history amongst themselves but much lesser histories overall the game would still mean a LOT to you and I and other tOSU and Michigan fans but it wouldn't be such a big deal beyond that.
Going back 40 years to 1980, years when tOSU and Michigan played for the league title (where both were playing for the title and no other teams were involved):
- 2007: tOSU came in 6-1 (lost to IL). Michigan came in 6-1 (lost to UW). Next best was IL at 5-2 so the winner was guaranteed an outright league title. Ohio State won, went to the BCSNCG, and lost to LSU.
- 2006: Both teams came in 7-0. Next best was UW at 6-1 so the winner was guaranteed an outright league title. Ohio State won, went to the BCSNCG, and lost to UF.
- 2003: Michigan came in 6-1 (lost to IA). Ohio State came in 6-1 (lost to UW). Next best was Purdue at 5-2 so the winner was guaranteed an outright league title. Michigan won, went to the Rose Bowl, and lost to USC.
- 1986: tOSU came in 7-0. Michigan came in 6-1 (lost to MN). Next best was Minnesota at 5-2 so the winner was guaranteed an outright (tOSU) or shared (M) league title and the RB berth. Michigan won then proceeded to lose to an ASU team coached by some guy named John Cooper.
- 1980: Michigan came in 7-0. tOSU came in 7-0. Michigan won then won the RB over UW.
Okay, bear with me for a moment while I venture out in the weeds with an absurd hypothetical. After all, this is a message board.
Let's say that THE GAME wasn't cancelled, but it is technically "meaningless" as OSU has already clinched a spot in the CCG.
The Football Gods then appear before you with good news and bad news.
The Bad News is that you are definitely going to go 1-1 in those two games, taking you out of the CFP equation.
The good news is that you get to pick which game you win and which game you lose.
Are you seriously trying to convince me that you would sign up for a loss in THE GAME, if it guaranteed you a victory over Northwestern in Indianapolis? Really?
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Okay, bear with me for a moment while I venture out in the weeds with an absurd hypothetical. After all, this is a message board.
Let's say that THE GAME wasn't cancelled, but it is technically "meaningless" as OSU has already clinched a spot in the CCG.
The Football Gods then appear before you with good news and bad news.
The Bad News is that you are definitely going to go 1-1 in those two games, taking you out of the CFP equation.
The good news is that you get to pick which game you win and which game you lose.
Are you seriously trying to convince me that you would sign up for a loss in THE GAME, if it guaranteed you a victory over Northwestern in Indianapolis? Really?
Absolutely. Sure, you're not in the CFP, but a Big Ten Championship and a trip to Rose Bowl are two things that will have larger echoes in the history books than beating Michigan in a meaningless THE GAME and then losing when it actually counts.
I realize that for OSU fans, "Big Ten Champion" is just assumed to be your birthright... But for those of us mere mortals, it's different.
If Purdue in a normal year was 7-1, had tiebreakers in the B1G West over Iowa and Wisconsin (who are both sitting at 6-2) and you offer me the same question: lose to Indiana and win the B1G CCG and go to the Rose Bowl, or beat Indiana before losing in the B1G CCG and not having a conference championship and going to a lesser bowl...
I'm taking the B1G title every damn year.
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Yeah, that'd be my answer too if I were a Purdue fan.
Only an OSU fan can wrap their brain around the specific hypothetical that I posited.
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Yeah, that'd be my answer too if I were a Purdue fan.
Only an OSU fan can warp their brain around the specific hypothetical that I posited.
Fixed that for you :57:
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I'd rather have a win over the Sooners back in the day or next season as opposed to a conference title this season
2020 Covid season = trash
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The Big Ten Conference plans to play all of it's Week 9 games on campus sites other than the 11 am championship game in Indianapolis at Lucas Oil Stadium.
Schools were notified on Wednesday morning of the plans.
The email said Big Ten home stadiums would be used for the Week 9 crossover games, and final match-ups may not be known until Monday.
The email to the schools also said there would be both Friday and Saturday games on Dec. 18 and Dec. 19.
There have been reports already that the league was looking to have two Friday games on Dec. 18 if things work out.
There has also been a strong public push by both Wisconsin and Minnesota to play each other on Week 9, which would force two teams from the East to square off as well.
There are still lots of unknowns about the Big Ten's Week 9, but the warmer weather pattern in the Midwest makes it much easier to stage these games outdoors, vs. paying the cost to rent multiple dome venues and traveling all 14 teams to neutral locations.
Temperatures in Lincoln are projected to be 46 degrees on Dec. 18-19 as we sit 10 days out.
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Almost started a new thread but though it could go here.
Boston College announced they will forego a bowl appearance. The players have sacrificed so much- they need a break to recharge.
I think we will see a lot of this.
The socializing/ events at bowl games will be eliminated- why bother.
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Most of the kids love the extra games and the coaches love the extra practices. Lord knows, the latter is really needed this year for most teams - particularly the B1G and PAC due to their garbage decisions.
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Fixed that for you :57:
The more I think of it, the more adamant I am about my position. Since OSU had already clinched the division in that scenario, the only possible way that Michigan can play spoiler is to knock OSU out of the playoff picture. No way I am giving them that pleasure on top of bragging rights for a year just to beat Northwestern in Indianapolis, and go to the Pasadena consolation game.
I know the Playoffs are out of the question either way, so let Northwestern do the spoiling, and graduate another class with 4 gold pants.
All. Day. Long.
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Any title that doesn't include a win over Michigan is tainted. Even if you could guarantee me a NC we the a loss to Michigan, no way! I wouldn't even be able to enjoy it.
"OSU won the NC!"
"Yeah, but Michigan won THE GAME."
"#@$+!!!!"
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Okay, bear with me for a moment while I venture out in the weeds with an absurd hypothetical. After all, this is a message board.
Let's say that THE GAME wasn't cancelled, but it is technically "meaningless" as OSU has already clinched a spot in the CCG.
The Football Gods then appear before you with good news and bad news.
The Bad News is that you are definitely going to go 1-1 in those two games, taking you out of the CFP equation.
The good news is that you get to pick which game you win and which game you lose.
Are you seriously trying to convince me that you would sign up for a loss in THE GAME, if it guaranteed you a victory over Northwestern in Indianapolis? Really?
This is actually a difficult call for me. Ohio State is out of the NC picture either way so in terms of "things @medinabuckeye1 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1547) cares about" it is either:
- Another tOSU win over Michigan, or
- Another tOSU B1G title
I care about both and a lot of my titles issue relates to Michigan anyway.
In the last few years we have caught Michigan on a bunch of metrics that @medinabuckeye1 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1547) cares about:
- Record in tOSU/M LEAGUE games (ie, 1918 to present): Ohio State finally caught Michigan with the 2014 win and now leads the tOSU/M LEAGUE game series by five games, 51-46-4.
- League titles since Ohio State joined the league: Ohio State finally caught Michigan with the 2017 title and now leads by two (38-36) in titles since tOSU joined the league (1913).
- League titles since Michigan rejoined the league (ie, 1917-present): Ohio State finally caught Michigan with the 2018 title and now leads by one (37-36) in league titles while both schools were members of the league.
The only things left are to catch Michigan for the remainder of the leads that they built up back when they were a member of the (then) Western Conference and Ohio State was the equivalent of a modern MAC school (if that), specifically:
- Michigan leads the overall series with Ohio State by seven games, 58-51-6. Michigan's first seven wins (all of their remaining lead) were in 1897, 1901, 1902, 1903, 1904, 1905, and 1906. During this time (pre-1907) tOSU was a pathetic 0-7-1 against the Wolverines.
- Michigan leads in overall league titles by four, 42-38. Michigan's first six titles were before Ohio State joined and before they dropped out. Specifically, their first four titles (all of their remaining lead) were in 1898, 1901, 1902, and 1903.
I want to see Ohio State catch Michigan in those last two metrics. They need a net seven more wins over Michigan to catch them in the overall series and a net four more titles to catch them in titles. Both of those appear to be possibly within reach. Ohio State has won nine titles since Michiagan last won one and the Buckeyes have won eight straight and fourteen of the last 15 episodes of THE GAME.
The difficulty, for me, of your hypothetical question from the football gods is that one of these goals would get closer while the other would get further away.
At the end of the day, I'd rather catch them in league titles so I'd pick the league title. When a Michigan fan points out their overall lead in the series I can simply congratulate them on wins that occurred in leather helmets long before WWI and remind them that Ohio State leads in league games and league titles.
Absolutely. Sure, you're not in the CFP, but a Big Ten Championship and a trip to Rose Bowl are two things that will have larger echoes in the history books than beating Michigan in a meaningless THE GAME and then losing when it actually counts.
I realize that for OSU fans, "Big Ten Champion" is just assumed to be your birthright... But for those of us mere mortals, it's different.
If Purdue in a normal year was 7-1, had tiebreakers in the B1G West over Iowa and Wisconsin (who are both sitting at 6-2) and you offer me the same question: lose to Indiana and win the B1G CCG and go to the Rose Bowl, or beat Indiana before losing in the B1G CCG and not having a conference championship and going to a lesser bowl...
I'm taking the B1G title every damn year.
I agree with @bwarbiany (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) , however:
Yeah, that'd be my answer too if I were a Purdue fan.
Only an OSU fan can wrap their brain around the specific hypothetical that I posited.
I concur that it would be an easier call if I were a Purdue fan.
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Any title that doesn't include a win over Michigan is tainted. Even if you could guarantee me a NC we the a loss to Michigan, no way! I wouldn't even be able to enjoy it.
"OSU won the NC!"
"Yeah, but Michigan won THE GAME."
"#@$+!!!!"
This I completely disagree with. I'll take the NC every time and when some smart-mouthed Michigan fan spouts off about them having beaten tOSU, I'll just say "that is NATIONAL CHAMPION tOSU, don't forget it. Also, does Michigan have any NC's that were televised? In color?"
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Okay, bear with me for a moment while I venture out in the weeds with an absurd hypothetical. After all, this is a message board.
Let's say that THE GAME wasn't cancelled, but it is technically "meaningless" as OSU has already clinched a spot in the CCG.
The Football Gods then appear before you with good news and bad news.
The Bad News is that you are definitely going to go 1-1 in those two games, taking you out of the CFP equation.
The good news is that you get to pick which game you win and which game you lose.
Are you seriously trying to convince me that you would sign up for a loss in THE GAME, if it guaranteed you a victory over Northwestern in Indianapolis? Really?
As of like 2 years ago, a vast majority on this board said they'd rather win the Rose Bowl than the national freakin' championship. Soooooo, there's that.
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As of like 2 years ago, a vast majority on this board said they'd rather win the Rose Bowl than the national freakin' championship. Soooooo, there's that.
Yeah, not me.
Anyway, curious your take. Consider the UF version of @Brutus Buckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=31) 's hypothetical. You have two choices:
- A loss to FSU, an SECCG win, no NC or
- A win over FSU, an SECCG loss, no NC.
Which do you pick?
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Yeah, not me.
Anyway, curious your take. Consider the UF version of @Brutus Buckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=31) 's hypothetical. You have two choices:
- A loss to FSU, an SECCG win, no NC or
- A win over FSU, an SECCG loss, no NC.
Which do you pick?
Luckily, the Ole Ball Coach repeatedly laid it out for my brethren:
the best thing is winning the national championsihp
the next-best thing is winning the SEC
and depending on how old you are, after that, it's beating FSU, UGA, or Tennessee
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Losing to FSU sucks so hard. But if it's one time, one year, in a vacuum, with an SEC title (which automatically means in the scrum for the NC), I have to take it. If FSU went on a run and it was a 4th straight loss or 5th straight, then I would flip-flop for sure.
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Luckily, the Ole Ball Coach repeatedly laid it out for my brethren:
the best thing is winning the national championsihp
the next-best thing is winning the SEC
and depending on how old you are, after that, it's beating FSU, UGA, or Tennessee
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Losing to FSU sucks so hard. But if it's one time, one year, in a vacuum, with an SEC title (which automatically means in the scrum for the NC), I have to take it. If FSU went on a run and it was a 4th straight loss or 5th straight, then I would flip-flop for sure.
In my hypothetical I specifically excluded the NC because I knew that otherwise that would bias you toward the SEC title. So I think I know your answer but to clarify:
Assume that UF lost an OOC game and two league games so they are now 8-3 but they get the SEC-E slot in the CG based on everybody else being worse or tiebreakers. Your team has two games remaining, FSU and the SECCG. You only get to win one so you will finish 9-4 and not in the CFP discussion even if you win the SEC. Simple choice:
- 9-4 with a win over FSU, an SECCG loss, and no CFP, or
- 9-4 with a loss to FSU, an SECCG win, and no CFP?
I absolutely get what you are saying about changing your answer if FSU had won four straight. At the end of the Cooper era when tOSU had gone 2-10-1 against M over the previous 13 years I'd have DEFINITELY traded a league title for a win over Michigan but not now.
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Almost started a new thread but though it could go here.
Boston College announced they will forego a bowl appearance. The players have sacrificed so much- they need a break to recharge.
I think we will see a lot of this.
The socializing/ events at bowl games will be eliminated- why bother.
I think it's ironic that LSU football self-imposes one-year bowl ban for 2020 season (https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/30486292/lsu-football-self-imposes-one-year-bowl-ban-2020-season) . If that is anything other than a PR move or them taking advantage of the COVID situation I would be shocked. They have to win their next two games just to reach .500.
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Fixed that for you :57:
Yep, we OSU fans are Warped that Way. Win over TTUN is more important than B1G championship.
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Heh, the Rose Bowl is a playoff game this year, so that makes it even easier.
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I posed this hypothetical on a Buckeye board. Not only is the win over TTUN unanimous, but on top of that I got a whole buncha "What kind of a question is this? Did you actually think that anyone would pick the Big Ten Title?" type responses.
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I posed this hypothetical on a Buckeye board. Not only is the win over TTUN unanimous, but on top of that I got a whole buncha "What kind of a question is this? Did you actually think that anyone would pick the Big Ten Title?" type responses.
I think that you and they are conflating a means with the ends.
For years the goals at Ohio State were:
Beat Michigan, win the Big Ten, win the Rose Bowl.
Historically beating Michigan was a precondition of the other two. It was a means not just an end onto itself.
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I think that you and they are conflating a means with the ends.
For years the goals at Ohio State were:
Beat Michigan, win the Big Ten, win the Rose Bowl.
Historically beating Michigan was a precondition of the other two. It was a means not just an end onto itself.
As someone that lives closer to that state up north than most other Buckeyes, I have to say that loosing to that team means a year of listening to them brag about beating the Bucks. That is intolerable. They never brag about tOSU NOT winning the B!G Title game.
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Imagine 20 years from now and Michigan has been relegated to Illinois status as a football program. E.g., their best season in 20 years was 7-5, and they made bowl games only 3 years out of 20. Does The Game retain much significance at that point? Imagine the series is 1-19 over that time period.
I was musing about the UGA-Tech "rivalry" which was a thing down here for many decades, but simply isn't any more, to me anyway. It doesn't compare to The Game of course as it's far more local and has little national significance over the past 20+ years. I personally would drop them from the schedule if I had a choice.
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I think that you and they are conflating a means with the ends.
For years the goals at Ohio State were:
Beat Michigan, win the Big Ten, win the Rose Bowl.
Historically beating Michigan was a precondition of the other two. It was a means not just an end onto itself.
Me? No. I am just the messenger. I posed the hypothetical fairly, and even included the Rose Bowl in order to sweeten the deal for the Big Ten Championship. No takers. They all picked the Michigan win.
I mean, what good is a Title over the rest of the Big Ten, if you don't even get bragging rights in the most important game?
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For the record, here is my exact wording. I also included a poll, which as of now is unanimously in favor of winning THE GAME instead of the Big Ten Title.
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Okay. First let's stipulate that THE GAME had not been canceled this weekend. I know, crazy right? Hear me out.
So it is technically a "meaningless" game, since OSU has already clinched a spot in the Big Ten Title Game.
Now here's where it gets really crazy...
The Football Gods visit you, and with them they bring both good news and bad news.
The bad news is that you are definitely going to go 1-1 in those final two games (TTUN and the Big Ten CCG), which will definitely knock OSU out of the CFB Playoff picture.
The good news is that you get to pick which game they win, and which game they lose. So...
Would you rather:
1) Beat TTUN, but then barf up a game against Northwestern in Indianapolis.
2) Lose to TTUN, but then beat Northwestern, win the Big Ten Title, and then go to the Rose Bowl (instead of the playoffs).
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Here are the types of responses I got.
Scenario 1. No hesitation.
Come on Brutus, this poll kind of sucks. Literally NO ONE will prefer a Michigan loss to a NW loss. You can do better.
No question, beat Michigan like the little brother that they are.
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Me? No. I am just the messenger. I posed the hypothetical fairly, and even included the Rose Bowl in order to sweeten the deal for the Big Ten Championship. No takers. They all picked the Michigan win.
I mean, what good is a Title over the rest of the Big Ten, if you don't even get bragging rights in the most important game?
I get it, but see this:
Imagine 20 years from now and Michigan has been relegated to Illinois status as a football program. E.g., their best season in 20 years was 7-5, and they made bowl games only 3 years out of 20. Does The Game retain much significance at that point? Imagine the series is 1-19 over that time period.
I was musing about the UGA-Tech "rivalry" which was a thing down here for many decades, but simply isn't any more, to me anyway. It doesn't compare to The Game of course as it's far more local and has little national significance over the past 20+ years. I personally would drop them from the schedule if I had a choice.
and this:
If FSU went on a run and it was a 4th straight loss or 5th straight, then I would flip-flop for sure.
@Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) and @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) pretty much laid out where I am.
Losing to Michigan REALLY sucks and this:
As someone that lives closer to that state up north than most other Buckeyes, I have to say that loosing to that team means a year of listening to them brag about beating the Bucks. That is intolerable. They never brag about tOSU NOT winning the B!G Title game.
One of the reasons it sucks is that a lot of us have to interact with Michigan fans on a frequent basis. This is obviously worse for someone in Toledo or elsewhere near the Michigan border as I assume @NorthernOhioBuckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=40) is.
That said, to me, losing to Michigan in 2000 sucked a LOT worse than losing to them in 2011 simply because the Buckeyes won six (seven if you count the vacated one) straight prior to the 2011 loss. A Michigan fan can brag but a tOSU fan can answer with something like:
- "A broken clock is right twice a day." or
- "Yeah, you got your once-a-decade win last year, whatever."
- etc.
The winner's bragging rights are a lot stronger if they have multiple consecutive wins like tOSU now or Michigan after winning their third straight in 1997.
So that is where I am. If Michigan had won last year this would be a close call for me. If they had won the last 2+ I would be on your side completely. They haven't. The Buckeyes have eight straight against the Wolverines and 14 of 15 (15 of 16 if you count the vacated win). That dropping to 14 of 16 or 15 of 17 simply isn't as big of a deal to me as it would be to lose 2+ straight.
Another way to look at it:
In modern times, the worst ten-year run against Michigan for our Buckeyes was John Cooper's first ten years (1988-1997). At that point the Buckeyes were:
- .150, 1-8-1 over the past 10 years (1988-1997)
- .360, 8-15-2 over the past 25 years (1973-1997)
- .470, 22-25-3 over the past 50 years (1948-1997)
Those same figures for Michigan currently:
- .111, 1-8 over the last 10 years (2011-2020 - no game in 2020)
- .261, 6-17 over the last 25 years (1996-2020 - no game in 2020, vacated tOSU win in 2010)
- .438, 20-26-1 over the last 50 years (1971-2020 - no game in 2020, vacated tOSU win in 2010)
So, compared to the depths of the Cooper era, Michigan is now:
- 1/2 game worse over the last 10 years
- 2 games worse over the last 25 years
- 1.5 games worse over the last 50 years
Also, it is not going to get any better for them anytime soon because:
- Their one win in the last 10 years was 10 years ago, in 2011. Thus, the best they could do for 2012-2021 is 1-8.
- Two of their six wins in the last 25 years were 25 and 24 years ago in 1996 and 1997. Thus, the best they could do for 1997-2021 and 1998-2022 is 6-17.
- One of their twenty wins in the last 50 years was 50 years ago in 1971. Thus, the best they could do for 1972-2021 is 20-26-1.
I see those 10-25-50 year windows as akin to "living memories". If we assume that people can remember back to when they were between 5-10 years old then:
- The 10 year comparison is roughly what a current HS or College student can remember.
- The 25 year comparison is roughly what a current 30-35 year old can remember.
- The 50 year comparison is roughly what a current 55-60 year old can remember.
There simply are not a lot of living fans who can remember back much further than that. Also, the 50 year comparison starts in 1971 and Ohio State had a very good record against the Wolverines in the 50's and 60's:
- Ohio State's lead since 1971 is six games (26-20-2 since 1971).
- Going back further, tOSU's lead does not drop below six and consistently climbs until maxing out at 13 games since both 1954 and 1952:
- Ohio State's lead since 1954 is 13 games (38-25-2 since 1954)
- Ohio State's lead since 1952 is 13 games (39-26-2 since 1952).
1952 was almost 70 years ago and Ohio State's lead doesn't shrink below six until you go back to 1938, more than 80 years ago. My point is that there are no living fans in whose living memory Michigan is anything better than slightly behind tOSU and one game wouldn't change that at all.
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Indiana releases statement on Ohio State going to B1G Championship (usatoday.com) (https://buckeyeswire.usatoday.com/2020/12/10/ohio-state-football-indiana-statement-buckeyes-big-ten-championship-game/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=NFLdraftmaverickMike&fbclid=IwAR3j8jONnOinJhp6RrXOlYlrlw91h8DWgNqfCOg0eQMjhD4dGkFRtMmHoS4)
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I get it, but see this:and this:@Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) and @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) pretty much laid out where I am.
Losing to Michigan REALLY sucks and this:One of the reasons it sucks is that a lot of us have to interact with Michigan fans on a frequent basis. This is obviously worse for someone in Toledo or elsewhere near the Michigan border as I assume @NorthernOhioBuckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=40) is.
That said, to me, losing to Michigan in 2000 sucked a LOT worse than losing to them in 2011 simply because the Buckeyes won six (seven if you count the vacated one) straight prior to the 2011 loss. A Michigan fan can brag but a tOSU fan can answer with something like:
- "A broken clock is right twice a day." or
- "Yeah, you got your once-a-decade win last year, whatever."
- etc.
The winner's bragging rights are a lot stronger if they have multiple consecutive wins like tOSU now or Michigan after winning their third straight in 1997.
So that is where I am. If Michigan had won last year this would be a close call for me. If they had won the last 2+ I would be on your side completely. They haven't. The Buckeyes have eight straight against the Wolverines and 14 of 15 (15 of 16 if you count the vacated win). That dropping to 14 of 16 or 15 of 17 simply isn't as big of a deal to me as it would be to lose 2+ straight.
Another way to look at it:
In modern times, the worst ten-year run against Michigan for our Buckeyes was John Cooper's first ten years (1988-1997). At that point the Buckeyes were:
- .150, 1-8-1 over the past 10 years (1988-1997)
- .360, 8-15-2 over the past 25 years (1973-1997)
- .470, 22-25-3 over the past 50 years (1948-1997)
Those same figures for Michigan currently:
- .111, 1-8 over the last 10 years (2011-2020 - no game in 2020)
- .261, 6-17 over the last 25 years (1996-2020 - no game in 2020, vacated tOSU win in 2010)
- .438, 20-26-1 over the last 50 years (1971-2020 - no game in 2020, vacated tOSU win in 2010)
So, compared to the depths of the Cooper era, Michigan is now:
- 1/2 game worse over the last 10 years
- 2 games worse over the last 25 years
- 1.5 games worse over the last 50 years
Also, it is not going to get any better for them anytime soon because:
- Their one win in the last 10 years was 10 years ago, in 2011. Thus, the best they could do for 2012-2021 is 1-8.
- Two of their six wins in the last 25 years were 25 and 24 years ago in 1996 and 1997. Thus, the best they could do for 1997-2021 and 1998-2022 is 6-17.
- One of their twenty wins in the last 50 years was 50 years ago in 1971. Thus, the best they could do for 1972-2021 is 20-26-1.
I see those 10-25-50 year windows as akin to "living memories". If we assume that people can remember back to when they were between 5-10 years old then:
- The 10 year comparison is roughly what a current HS or College student can remember.
- The 25 year comparison is roughly what a current 30-35 year old can remember.
- The 50 year comparison is roughly what a current 55-60 year old can remember.
There simply are not a lot of living fans who can remember back much further than that. Also, the 50 year comparison starts in 1971 and Ohio State had a very good record against the Wolverines in the 50's and 60's:
- Ohio State's lead since 1971 is six games (26-20-2 since 1971).
- Going back further, tOSU's lead does not drop below six and consistently climbs until maxing out at 13 games since both 1954 and 1952:
- Ohio State's lead since 1954 is 13 games (38-25-2 since 1954)
- Ohio State's lead since 1952 is 13 games (39-26-2 since 1952).
1952 was almost 70 years ago and Ohio State's lead doesn't shrink below six until you go back to 1938, more than 80 years ago. My point is that there are no living fans in whose living memory Michigan is anything better than slightly behind tOSU and one game wouldn't change that at all.
I suspect that if our starting point were my hypothetical with the football gods, you would have rather beaten Michigan than win a Big Ten Title. But since our starting point was getting THE GAME in instead of playing in the CCG, you are just doubling down on your original position as people on message boards tend to do.
I can't prove it of course, but that is my hypothesis.
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I suspect that if our starting point were my hypothetical with the football gods, you would have rather beaten Michigan than win a Big Ten Title. But since our starting point was getting THE GAME in instead of playing in the CCG, you are just doubling down on your original position as people on message boards tend to do.
I can't prove it of course, but that is my hypothesis.
I can understand why you think that but it honestly isn't. I'll try to explain why:
There are LOTS of great "regional" rivalries. Games like Cal/Stanford, Minnesota/Wisconsin, and even Kent/Akron. For that matter Chris Spielman once said that of all the rivalries he had played in (incl tOSU/M, Browns/Steelers, and several other NFL rivalries), the fiercest was Massilon/McKinley (a HS Football rivalry in Canton and Massilon, Ohio for those unaware). Each of these is as important to the local partisans as tOSU/M is to you and I but very few people outside of that location care much.
What made (and to an extent continues to make) tOSU/M a bigger deal than a mere "regional" rivalry is that it frequently had an impact well beyond local bragging rights. People all around the league frequently had an interest in THE GAME either to see who would win the league or to see if their team would win (ie, if say Wisconsin needed a particular result out of THE GAME to win a league title like in 1993). People in the PAC frequently had an interest in THE GAME to see who their RB opponent would be. People beyond those areas frequently had an interest in THE GAME because one or both participants was a NC contender.
If you take away the league and national title implications then tOSU/M is no different than Cal/Stanford or Minnesota/Wisconsin. Those are great rivalries. The local partisans are passionate about them. Most of the rest of the country doesn't care.
I love THE GAME and I really LOVE it when Ohio State wins THE GAME. I've said before that if Ohio State wins the next 25 in a row I'll still be cheering like crazy for #26 when I'm 70 years old. It will always matter to me.
That said, what makes this rivalry so big is league and national title implications. If those dried up then nobody outside of Ohio and Michigan would care. It happened to Harvard and Yale. Their partisans refer to their annual tilt as "THE GAME" just like we do. A Century ago it was probably the biggest rivalry in all of College Football but even by then it was fading behind upstarts like tOSU/M. The local partisans are still passionate. Harvard Men still care deeply about beating Yale Men and vice-versa. Nobody outside that bubble takes much notice.
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I really SUSPECT that for younger OSU fans, in the next 20 years if my scenario plays out, they will simply lose interest in TG as anything special. These folks are <30 years old, they never have known Michigan to be good, and hearing about history might as well apply to Army or Yale, to them. Yay, we beat Michigan. Again. Whoop.
Way more excited to beat Penn State, Inidiana, Wisconsin, Iowa, Maryland, than Michigan. They have been lousy for 30 years.
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I really SUSPECT that for younger OSU fans, in the next 20 years if my scenario plays out, they will simply lose interest in TG as anything special. These folks are <30 years old, they never have known Michigan to be good, and hearing about history might as well apply to Army or Yale, to them. Yay, we beat Michigan. Again. Whoop.
Way more excited to beat Penn State, Inidiana, Wisconsin, Iowa, Maryland, than Michigan. They have been lousy for 30 years.
This, 100%.
I hope your scenario plays out, of course. Here it is:
Imagine 20 years from now and Michigan has been relegated to Illinois status as a football program. E.g., their best season in 20 years was 7-5, and they made bowl games only 3 years out of 20. Does The Game retain much significance at that point? Imagine the series is 1-19 over that time period.
If it does play out (FWIW, I highly doubt it) then twenty years from now old guys like @Brutus Buckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=31) and I will still care about wins over Michigan. Younger fans will wonder what the big deal is to us.
Any rivalry reflects the reality of the situation. Ohio State has already won 14 of the last 15 (2004-2020 with 2010 excluded due to being vacated and 2020 not played) and 16 of the last 18 (2001-2020 with the same stipulations). Thus, if Ohio State wins 19 of the next 20 that would make it 33 of 35 and 35 of 38 and at that point no person younger than about 75 would think of the Ohio State/Michigan rivalry as anything but completely one sided in Ohio State's favor.
For comparison, Ohio State's record over the past 20 (2000-2019) years against teams that they have played at least six times:
- 1.000, 17-0 vs Indiana
- 1.000, 6-0 vs Rutgers
- 1.000, 6-0 vs Maryland
- .917, 11-1 vs Minnesota
- .917, 11-1 vs Northwestern
- .867, 13-2 vs Illinois
- .850, 17-3 vs Michigan
- .833, 5-1 vs Nebraska
- .812, 13-3 vs Michigan State
- .778, 7-2 vs Iowa
- .765, 13-4 vs Wisconsin
- .750, 15-5 vs Penn State
- .615, 8-5 vs Purdue
19-1 would be .950 which is more than we could realistically hope for. I'm thinking that matching the .850 achieved over the last 20 years would be a very ambitious goal but even in that situation your point would still be correct. If Ohio State ends up 34-6 over Michigan over a four decade stretch then nobody under 50 will understand why @Brutus Buckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=31) and I care so much about beating Michigan.
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I saw on a graphic on BTN today that Indiana will play the 2nd place team from the West. If that is true, does that mean Indiana will be playing Iowa?
Even if Wisconsin beats Iowa, Indiana probably would not play Wisconsin. Indy and Wiscy just played each other, and Wiscy is pushing hard hard to play Minny instead. So that kind of leaves Iowa to play Indy. Unless Indy pushes hard to play Purdue instead.
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I don't think anyone knows right now
the commish is waiting for the Bucks to give their 2 cents on the matter
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Yeah, OSU is the star of the Big Ten solar system.
The rest are dwarf planets and gas giants.
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Hmmm..
With Saturday's games over, this is my latest thinking
1. OSU vs. NW
2. Iowa @ Indiana
3A. Minn @ Wisc
3B. MSU @ MD
5A. Purdue @ PSU
5B. ILL @ Mich
5C. Neb @ Rut
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I am wondering how many of these teams would take a pass if they could.
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Trask deserves the Heisman. He would get my vote, followed very closely by Smith from Bama.
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Trask deserves the Heisman. He would get my vote, followed very closely by Smith from Bama.
I'd vote Smith, easily
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I'd vote Smith, easily
Yes- If it really is the best player he should win it.
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As for the Heisman, I would wait to vote after the regular season ends. And if I were the Heisman club I'd wait to award it after the bowl games are played.
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As for the Heisman, I would wait to vote after the regular season ends. And if I were the Heisman club I'd wait to award it after the bowl games are played.
Ehhh, you'd have so many that just go to the stud on the national championship team.
I feel like you could concoct something different. I know Bill Simmons made something up for the NBA where you had an award for the defining player of each year, regular season and playoffs. Ideal for a year when James commanded the playoffs but cruised in the regular season.
That feels most right to me. Like, I still think Reggie Bush deserved the Heisman that year. Vince just deserved something else.
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Give it to the Kid from Bama - then plaster it all over Sports Illustrated,I'd really like the fields chances then
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https://twitter.com/B1Gfootball/status/1338197077961154569?s=19
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strange.
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Indiana releases statement on Ohio State going to B1G Championship (usatoday.com) (https://buckeyeswire.usatoday.com/2020/12/10/ohio-state-football-indiana-statement-buckeyes-big-ten-championship-game/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=NFLdraftmaverickMike&fbclid=IwAR3j8jONnOinJhp6RrXOlYlrlw91h8DWgNqfCOg0eQMjhD4dGkFRtMmHoS4)
Classy response. And it really does make sense. If Indiana and OSU hadn't played head to head....I would find this to be a joke. But OSU won the head to head. They should play in the championship.
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Michigan at Iowa?
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And hooray. Very happy that the Gophers and Badgers are going to keep the streak going.
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Some theories.
It may make sense for Indy and Purdue to play during champions week, not just because of the long rivalry, but because both teams were having COVID problems this week, so there is a chance their games might get canceled again. So might as well pair them up.
It also makes sense for Minny and Wiscy to try to reschedule their game for champions week. Keeping that long streak alive of the 2 teams playing every year.
It might also make sense for MD to try to reschedule 1 of its games that got canceled, either against MSU or Mich.
So let's see what we got.
1. OSU-NW
2. Indy-Purdue
3. Wiscy-Minny
4 Iowa vs Mich/Rut
5. MD vs. Mich/MSU
6. PSU vs. ILL
7. Mich/Rut/MSU vs. Neb
Guess I should have stuck with my original theory. That ended up being the one closest to what they chose.
I really wish Indiana was playing Iowa instead but I get it, why they went with Indiana vs. Purdue.
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And hooray. Very happy that the Gophers and Badgers are going to keep the streak going.
yeah the gophers are still short players and it will give the Badgers something to feel good about
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3 of those games make sense
that's pretty good for the leadership of the conference
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You know its 2020 when Iowa fans are like, oh man, we have to play unranked Michigan? We wanted to play #12 Indiana!!
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if the commish would have started the season earlier, the East could matchup with the West like they planned
could have played "the game"
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https://twitter.com/B1Gfootball/status/1338197077961154569?s=19
I am pleased with the Championship Week schedule. It honors the rivalries whose games were not played. And, as for Michigan v. Iowa, Michigan is as close to being one of Iowa's traditional rivals, which game does not actually have a rivalry trophy, as it gets.
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3 of those games make sense
that's pretty good for the leadership of the conference
I honestly think they did a fine job and that this was the obvious solution.
It appears to me that priority #1 after the CG was set was to preserve ancient rivalries. Thus these three were pretty much automatic:
Then they had to create a B1G-E match that hadn't already been played. With tOSU unavailable there were only two choices:
They picked MSU because M is a bigger ratings draw, plain and simple.
With those four set they were left with three teams each from the B1G-E and B1G-W,
B1G-E:
- 3-5 PSU (already played UNL and IA)
- 3-5 RU (already played IL)
- 2-4 M
B1G-W:
- 6-2 Iowa (already played PSU)
- 2-5 IL (already played RU)
- 2-5 UNL (already played PSU)
PSU/IL was automatic because PSU had already played the other two.
At that point there were just two choices, either:
- RU/IA and M/UNL, or
- M/IA and RU/UNL
I agree with their decision of #2 here. It puts a helmet in each game and even though Michigan isn't much (if at all) better than RU still, M just "sounds" like a better match-up for ranked Iowa than Rutgers.
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Plus MSU had already played Iowa, while UM hadn't.
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I'm also more excited for the 30 for 30 about why the Big Ten scheduled 6 exhibitions in the middle of a pandemic than the games themselves
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I can't believe that they "changed the rules" midstream for Wisconsin and Minnesota. O0
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yeah the gophers are still short players and it will give the Badgers something to feel good about
Minnesota will crush Wisconsin this weekend. It's 2020.