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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: ELA on October 29, 2020, 08:29:24 AM

Title: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on October 29, 2020, 08:29:24 AM
MSU frequently plays this one better than they should.  But last year was ugly, and UM is playing better now, MSU is somehow playing worse.

The MSU beat writers podcast seemed to imply that Collins was one of the COVID cases.  It might be a conditioning issue getting back to game shape
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on October 29, 2020, 09:14:20 AM
I think Hairball is going to really pour it on. Kick them while they are down.
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 29, 2020, 09:29:13 AM
this one is really important. Young team that is probably feeling themselves a little bit after going on the road at night and spanking a ranked Minnesota team. Have to turn around a week later and play in a big rivalry game and come back down to earth.

As bad as Michigan handled Minnesota- they made plenty of errors and mistakes that had they not made- they would've hung 60+ on them instead of 49. Can they clean up those first game mistakes? Can they handle the emotions of a big road win and then turn around and be ready for a big rivalry game? Remains to be seen.

If Michigan comes out, cleans up some of the mistakes from week 1 and handles Michigan State- then they just might actually be legit and a top 10 type team. Not going to believe it until I see it though. 

This game is also huge in the development of a young QB in Joe Milton. I want to see him continue to grow and execute the offense and be efficient like he was week 1. He doesn't need to try to be a savior- just run the offense, be efficient, take what the defense gives you and don't turn it over.
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: FearlessF on October 29, 2020, 11:48:05 AM
the important question is.........

do I take Michigan to cover 25? take 25 points and Sparty?  or stay the hell away from this rivalry game?

I was leaning towards taking Sparty and the points
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 29, 2020, 01:25:26 PM
the important question is.........

do I take Michigan to cover 25? take 25 points and Sparty?  or stay the hell away from this rivalry game?

I was leaning towards taking Sparty and the points
I’d take the points. Michigan might will, but it won’t be by 25. That’s an easy bet imo.
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: FearlessF on October 29, 2020, 04:14:58 PM
that's what I'm thinking - Sparty will have some spark Saturday
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: Honestbuckeye on October 29, 2020, 04:17:09 PM
I’d take the points. Michigan might will, but it won’t be by 25. That’s an easy bet imo.
Lol. Who are you trying to kid MDOT

I will do a signature back with you and I will give you a Michigan State and 35?
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 29, 2020, 04:28:46 PM
I wouldn't touch it
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: Honestbuckeye on October 29, 2020, 04:58:32 PM
I wouldn't touch it
That coach is going to need a couple of full cycles ( recruiting, spring ball, fall camp, full season) to stabilize the program and instill a culture and playbook.   
 
I am not knocking them.  
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 29, 2020, 05:04:44 PM
That coach is going to need a couple of full cycles ( recruiting, spring ball, fall camp, full season) to stabilize the program and instill a culture and playbook. 
 
I am not knocking them. 
Oh, MSU is going to get crushed.  I don't even think this is like 2016, where we were better than 3-9, but how we got every single bounce our way to reach the CFP in 2015, it went the exact opposite way in 2016.

I just hate playing with a line that high.  I could see it going like last year, but I could also see UM up by 30 points, and MSU tacking on a couple meaningless scores late.
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: FearlessF on October 29, 2020, 05:26:54 PM
I don't usually touch spreads of 28 or more
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 29, 2020, 05:45:02 PM
I don't usually touch spreads of 28 or more
I know a guy who always parlays 10 worst moneyline games each week.  He's ahead overall on that.
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 29, 2020, 06:55:19 PM
I don't usually touch spreads of 28 
You shouldn't you're approaching 60
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: FearlessF on October 29, 2020, 07:11:14 PM
only 30 years difference

and they should certainly know better
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 29, 2020, 07:12:39 PM
I know a guy who always parlays 10 worst moneyline games each week.  He's ahead overall on that.
Contrarian play,I got creamed on those too
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: Benthere2 on October 29, 2020, 07:17:37 PM
man how can you bet not knowing who might be out for a reason or another?

just because Wisconsin did a bad job keeping a lid on the covid deal I cannot believe all the other schools don't have 1 or 2 cases that sprung up this past week.  

and noooo one is talking about it until pre game warm ups.

losing a position group is tough and heartbreaking if it is your QB room affected

but no one knows anything until game day but the coaches.

tough on Vegas
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: Mdot21 on October 29, 2020, 09:22:32 PM
Joel Klatt breaking down Michigan's week 1 performance vs Minnesota. Take with a grain of salt, he seems to be a big Harbaugh fanboy. He seems to be a big fan of Joe Milton. Which honestly- while I am taking the wait and see approach with Milton- the dude is definitely an adonis. He is gifted as f@##. Giant dude that is athletic and can run and oh yeah he's got an absolute cannon for an arm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyMOJsJENzU&feature=emb_logo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyMOJsJENzU&feature=emb_logo)
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: Temp430 on October 30, 2020, 09:07:56 AM
Michigan had some issues with the run in the Minnesota game mainly being soft up the middle.  Not sure if Sparty can take advantage; their OL looked not too good.
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 30, 2020, 10:02:16 AM
Michigan had some issues with the run in the Minnesota game mainly being soft up the middle.  Not sure if Sparty can take advantage; their OL looked not too good.
The tackles were fine, the interior line was abysmal.  I thought it would be flipped.  I was shocked at their inability to handle the Rutgers nose tackle.
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: CatsbyAZ on October 30, 2020, 11:41:45 AM
I don't usually touch spreads of 28 or more

This is one of the only times when I'll take such a high spread. Harbaugh doesn't like MSU, and I'm betting he'll be even more eager to pile on after watching game tape of the flop Vs Rutgers. A new coach, who's doubtful to motivate his roster as confidently as Dantonio or Harbaugh, is in for a rude introduction to the rivalry Vs big brother:

https://twitter.com/UMichFootball/status/1153825623300857856
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 30, 2020, 11:55:34 AM
Yeah, I think if Michigan wants to cover, they will.  I could also see them up 30ish after 3, and a late score allowing MSU to cover

Michigan 40, Michigan State 17
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: MrNubbz on October 30, 2020, 11:58:42 AM
Joel Klatt breaking down Michigan's week 1 performance vs Minnesota. Take with a grain of salt, he seems to be a big Harbaugh fanboy. He seems to be a big fan of Joe Milton. Which honestly- while I am taking the wait and see approach with Milton- the dude is definitely an adonis.
Reminds me of 12 Guage(Cardale)
Title: Re: Michigan State (0-1) at #13 Michigan (1-0) Game Week
Post by: ELA on October 31, 2020, 03:48:20 PM
Almost made suffering through 4 hours of Joel Klatt manageable
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 31, 2020, 04:36:21 PM
Fire Harbaugh.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Temp430 on October 31, 2020, 04:43:28 PM
Michigan may go 2-6 this year.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 31, 2020, 05:02:47 PM
Fire Harbaugh.
Bad hire.

But, who ya gonna get?

Justin Wilcox might be worth a look. I'd think Michigan would want a coach with some experience as a HC.

I've always like Lance Leipold too.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on October 31, 2020, 05:18:38 PM
I honestly missed the game (a lot going on here, not just trying to pile on).  What happened?  

I have a few thoughts:


This is just a shocking result.  

Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 31, 2020, 05:44:02 PM
Harbaugh is a bad fit for Michigan and the way the game is played today.

How many shots did MSU take down field? A SHIT TON. How many did Michigan? A handful. 

Different year, same shit. Zero downfield passing game, yet another year. 

Have to push the ball down the field. Period. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on October 31, 2020, 05:58:12 PM
I honestly missed the game (a lot going on here, not just trying to pile on).  What happened? 

Me too I was busy and didn't think it would be a game,Damn,just getting in.Let this be a heads up to tOSU
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on October 31, 2020, 06:05:45 PM
Me too I was busy and didn't think it would be a game,Damn,just getting in.Let this be a heads up to tOSU
lol. Ohio State is going to drop 70 on Michigan. It will be a blood bathX
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Temp430 on November 01, 2020, 07:48:49 AM
I may self flagellate and re-watch the game to count the number of blown calls or lopsided calls of ephemeral defensive holding or PI penalties called that kept Sparty’s scoring drives alive.  Having said that Michigan looked like they were sick.  If that is how Michigan will play the remainder of the season, it would be best to cancel their remaining games.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 01, 2020, 02:08:41 PM
Having your quarterback unaware of the best player of the opposing defense seems like another major coaching failure. The arrogance after the loss though is certainly appreciated

https://twitter.com/BarstoolMSU/status/1322737017780916224?s=19
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 01, 2020, 02:31:28 PM
Guess it wasn't an upset after all.Tell ya what JH is pulling in should be a white collar crime
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Cincydawg on November 01, 2020, 02:41:28 PM
Harbaugh just needs a few more years.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 01, 2020, 04:01:40 PM
Harbaugh just needs a few more years.
Hopefully
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on November 01, 2020, 04:39:38 PM
https://twitter.com/JRoseWXYZ/status/1322744958193967104?s=19
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Cincydawg on November 01, 2020, 04:43:42 PM
Does anyone here have a sense of where JH stands on the proverbial hot seat?

I've asked about him here for years and the thinking was he would get a few more years because of his pay and buy out.  I know they won't fire him after that one loss, but is it being discussed in the back rooms, do you think?

Ohio State could well put up a bad number on them later,.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 01, 2020, 05:11:50 PM
Even the diehards want him to walk the plank,watch ELA's video
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 02, 2020, 08:06:26 AM
Does anyone here have a sense of where JH stands on the proverbial hot seat?

I've asked about him here for years and the thinking was he would get a few more years because of his pay and buy out.  I know they won't fire him after that one loss, but is it being discussed in the back rooms, do you think?

Ohio State could well put up a bad number on them later,.
He only has one more year of payout, so that makes it interesting.

At this point, the firing is going to come not because there's a great answer as to who makes this team either what it wants to be or close to what it wants to be, but because sometimes you just get tired and take the gamble. 

It's interesting to look back. Since 1997, Michigan has had four teams that were either better than the good Harbs teams or at least ranked in the single digits at season's end. 
2006 - Gangbusters at the start, smacking good ND and UW. Showed cracks vs Ball State and NW before losing that classic OSU game and not finishing the deal vs. USC
2003 - Lost to 5-loss Oregon and tripped up to Iowa despite a 10-point lead, large yardage edge and the same number of turnovers (did beat OSU)
2002 - Kinda overachieved with its scoring differential, but burped up a 2-point loss to ND when both teams lost four turnovers, lost to Iowa putting up 2.9 yards a play and managed to let slip that Ohio State game
1999 - Beat good not great UW and PSU, lost to Saban and Ron Turner Illinois

Those feel Harbaugh-y in their own way, give or take winning an Outback Bowl and beating Bama in the Orange. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 02, 2020, 08:14:56 AM
The college football playoff has really changed the narrative on what success is. And Ohio State is operating at such a different level right now that those late 90s teams wouldn't have been winning Big Ten titles now either, but I believe some of them did at the time.  And honestly winning the national championship was always this weird abstract thing. Even going to New year's Day bowls, when they were merit-based, and not just a combination of rotation and TV viewership with some sort of an accomplishment. It's sort of feels now like if you're not in the playoff, as a helmet school, what are you even doing here?
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: 847badgerfan on November 02, 2020, 08:43:44 AM
Yep, the playoff thing has really had a bad effect on most programs. Even Wisconsin.

Instead of talking about how to get to the Rose Bowl, people talk about how to take the next step and get to the playoff.

It sucks.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 02, 2020, 08:46:55 AM
Almost made suffering through 4 hours of Joel Klatt manageable
Saw Klatt's interview with Cowherd and thought there was some UM/JH schmoozing he did state the game will be a lot closer than people think - whatever that means.But one of the posters on the red cedar said rather than listen to Klatt he switched to Brandstatter and Dierdorf for less biased view of the game - made me chuckle.Can't wait to hear Mike Valenti later on YT
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: CatsbyAZ on November 02, 2020, 09:40:12 AM
Yeah, I think if Michigan wants to cover, they will.  I could also see them up 30ish after 3, and a late score allowing MSU to cover

Michigan 40, Michigan State 17

Back in this thread to announce how dead WRONG I was. Had Michigan State as ranked 12-14th in the conference based on roster turnover, new coaching staff, and the Rutgers loss. Mel Tucker & Co showed a lot of guts by hanging tough and going away from the safer original game plan to target Michigan’s CBs downfield. As for all the beat writers wasting no time in rushing out a slew of negative Harbaugh headlines, it’s hard to disagree that Saturday might’ve been his worst loss as Michigan’s HC. Last time we saw this much Harbaugh bashing was 2018’s season opening clunker Vs Notre Dame. With the NFL yet to start, sports radio across the nation led every Monday/Tuesday show by unloading on Harbaugh. Michigan then reeled off 10 straight wins and all was happy until Ohio State. At this point, 5-2 going into this season’s Ohio State qualifies as somewhere between healthy optimism and unrealistic. 

Good thing for Harbaugh he opted away from the usual khakis because his blue pants better hid the crapping of himself he did all Saturday afternoon, although for us who watched what was going on on the field, we knew better.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 02, 2020, 09:57:14 AM
Back in this thread to announce how dead WRONG I was. Had Michigan State as ranked 12-14th in the conference based on roster turnover, new coaching staff, and the Rutgers loss. Mel Tucker & Co showed a lot of guts by hanging tough and going away from the safer original game plan to target Michigan’s CBs downfield.
Sparty took some horrible roster losses the last 3 seasons whether grades,off field trouble or transfers was hard from to watch from staunch to sliding.Maybe Mel can get them on track,I don't know that anyone had MSU staying within 7 let alone winning last Saturday
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 02, 2020, 10:07:26 AM
Sparty took some horrible roster losses the last 3 seasons whether grades,off field trouble or transfers was hard from to watch from staunch to sliding.Maybe Mel can get them on track,I don't know that anyone had MSU staying within 7 let alone winning last Saturday
MSU has done a great job of developing and identifying underrated talent.  The problem has been that ignores all of the appropriately low rated guys they have also taken.  Their success has almost exclusively been tied to health luck.  2013, 2014 and 2017, they stayed insanely healthy.  2016, 2018 and 2019, they were crushed, particularly in the trenches.

That has resulted in a lot of guys MSU beat out MAC schools to get...showing they probably deserved to play in the MAC.

I think the only year that cut against that was 2015, where they had fairly bad (but not 16, 18, 19 bad) injury luck, and wound up in the CFP.  That team also (Nebraska game aside) seemed to have every bounce go their way.  I think their only comfortable wins all year were WMU, Air Force, Maryland and Penn State.


That is 8-1 in games that were one score in the final 7 minutes of the game
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 02, 2020, 10:45:12 AM
The college football playoff has really changed the narrative on what success is. And Ohio State is operating at such a different level right now that those late 90s teams wouldn't have been winning Big Ten titles now either, but I believe some of them did at the time.  And honestly winning the national championship was always this weird abstract thing. Even going to New year's Day bowls, when they were merit-based, and not just a combination of rotation and TV viewership with some sort of an accomplishment. It's sort of feels now like if you're not in the playoff, as a helmet school, what are you even doing here?
So I kinda don't agree, though sort of in a nuanced way. 

It seems like getting to the playoff is in one way that goal, but it's also not really. Like, Michigan wants to get to the playoff, but getting to the playoff is packaged with 1. Beating OSU, 2. Winning the East 3. Playing for (and likely winning) a Big Ten title. Now maybe if Michigan won a few conference titles and missed the playoff, it would be a thing. But if back in the day, Carr had gone six years without a conference title and been swept by OSU, I think the anger woulda been the same. 

To a degree, I think the expansion of NY6 bowls feels lesser, mostly because worse teams get in. But also going to a Peach or Orange feels bigger than going to an Outback or Citrus, even if the teams have accomplished the same. 

I think a few factors are at work.
1. We know too much and we are better complainers
In 1999, it took some work to see the full CFB picture. You needed rickety websites, maybe newspapers or sports radio. The top-5 seemed more distant, a rarified group. Now, I can check those rankings every day in two clicks. I can see the whole sport, I can lament a 8-0 mid-major as a pretender instead of a fun story. And when you see the whole field, you can focus on your team's place/lack of place where you want to be. And I think as a society, complaints can unite more, and amplify, in sports and beyond. 
2. There are fewer conference titles
The four teams I mentioned won actually only one conference title. But Carr also won part of two three-way splits and one two-way split. Now, we only get one a year, and if you don't win that one, you're mostly shut out of the bigger stuff. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: FearlessF on November 02, 2020, 10:50:18 AM
agreed

if Michigan wins the East there will be plenty of celebration regardless of CFP selection

same with Wisconsin, if the Badgers with the Big Ten, this is a big deal.  Playoff or not.

and this certainly goes for any team that is not Michigan or Wisconsin in the Big Ten, including PSU
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 02, 2020, 10:53:36 AM
Yep, the playoff thing has really had a bad effect on most programs. Even Wisconsin.

Instead of talking about how to get to the Rose Bowl, people talk about how to take the next step and get to the playoff.

It sucks.
I don't know that's the playoff. I think that's just a quirk of the sport. 

For better or worse, in CFB you're always 1-2 wins away from the next step. It's just right there. Before the playoff, Barry swung hard to try to reach the next step, an oft-repeated apocryphal tale of the early 2000s. And when you make the next level, you look for just a little more.

Through my undergrad years, people lamented not making it to Pasadena. Then they made it a bunch, and some folks were irked they couldn't actually win there. As Bo's book said, there's always another hill to climb.

In the short term, the thing that historically would get UW to the Rose Bowl would get them to the playoff. That's been true two of the past three completed seasons. One of those years, UW went in a situation when it traditionally wouldn't, because OSU was very good. And the other year, UW didn't go to there Rose Bowl because Ohio State was less good. It's an odd mix.

In the end, everyone wants to be a little better. Purdue wants to be .500 or better consistently, occasionally striking with a big year. Michigan wants some OSU wins and hardware. UW is at times separated from its dream by a monstrously talented OSU program, and some folks, the kind who don't know how good they have it and would complain anyway, will ask why they can't have just one more thing. 

(I always think about this in terms of an old Simpson's line. The old rich guy surveys his wealth and says "I'd trade it all for a little more." In some ways, that's absurd and paradoxical, but everyone is willing to blow it up with the assumption they get all they have and a bit on top)
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 02, 2020, 10:57:52 AM
In the end, everyone wants to be a little better. Purdue wants to be .500 or better consistently, occasionally striking with a big year. Michigan wants some OSU wins and hardware. UW is at times separated from its dream by a monstrously talented OSU program, and some folks, the kind who don't know how good they have it and would complain anyway, will ask why they can't have just one more thing.
People got tired of Joe Tiller towards the end because they said he couldn't take us to the "next level". 

So we got Danny Hope, and realized that the "next" level doesn't always mean a "higher" level, and then got Hazell where we were looking up fondly at the sort of records Hope could achieve.

Now maybe we're on a better trajectory, but I worry that in a few years if Brohm has us to a consistent range where 7-5 is a bad year and 9-3 is a good year, fans will be complaining that we don't pay $6M/year for a coach that can't deliver 10 win seasons, and we need to bring in a coach who can take us to the "next level". 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 02, 2020, 11:19:33 AM
Having your quarterback unaware of the best player of the opposing defense seems like another major coaching failure. The arrogance after the loss though is certainly appreciated

https://twitter.com/BarstoolMSU/status/1322737017780916224?s=19
This is a major indictment on Harbaugh and that offensive staff. 

Thus offense and play-calling still has Harbaugh’s fingerprints all over it. Don’t be fooled just because they line-up in the shotgun 24/7 now. Harbaugh is still heavily involved in the offense like he’s always been everywhere he’s been. 

The guy is an assclown that has lost his edge. He used to fire that team up and go nuts on the sidelines and on the refs. Now he’s like a nutered dog on meds and just a spaced out weirdo on meds standing on the sidelines like a retard. He’s got to go.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 02, 2020, 12:22:31 PM
So I kinda don't agree, though sort of in a nuanced way.

It seems like getting to the playoff is in one way that goal, but it's also not really. Like, Michigan wants to get to the playoff, but getting to the playoff is packaged with 1. Beating OSU, 2. Winning the East 3. Playing for (and likely winning) a Big Ten title. Now maybe if Michigan won a few conference titles and missed the playoff, it would be a thing. But if back in the day, Carr had gone six years without a conference title and been swept by OSU, I think the anger woulda been the same.

To a degree, I think the expansion of NY6 bowls feels lesser, mostly because worse teams get in. But also going to a Peach or Orange feels bigger than going to an Outback or Citrus, even if the teams have accomplished the same.

I think a few factors are at work.
1. We know too much and we are better complainers
In 1999, it took some work to see the full CFB picture. You needed rickety websites, maybe newspapers or sports radio. The top-5 seemed more distant, a rarified group. Now, I can check those rankings every day in two clicks. I can see the whole sport, I can lament a 8-0 mid-major as a pretender instead of a fun story. And when you see the whole field, you can focus on your team's place/lack of place where you want to be. And I think as a society, complaints can unite more, and amplify, in sports and beyond.
2. There are fewer conference titles
The four teams I mentioned won actually only one conference title. But Carr also won part of two three-way splits and one two-way split. Now, we only get one a year, and if you don't win that one, you're mostly shut out of the bigger stuff.
Yeah, that was supposed to be more of an AND, rather than an or, as for the CFP AND where OSU is.

That I'm not sure some of those teams that were viewed as good enough, would be doing any better against this version of OSU.

And that an Orange Bowl now is not what an Orange Bowl was in 1999.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 02, 2020, 12:38:16 PM
How’s this for a harbaugh replacement....Eric Bienemy. 

That’s the style of offense I want to see. Explosive, vertical down the field passing game.

He’s got a lot of experience in the college ranks as well as nfl. 

Go all in at him throw a ton of money at him.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: MaximumSam on November 02, 2020, 12:46:04 PM
I'll say it is a complete mystery how Michigan has fielded such great corners and then been unable to recruit corners.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 02, 2020, 01:15:12 PM
I'll say it is a complete mystery how Michigan has fielded such great corners and then been unable to recruit corners.
Don Brown is an awful recruiter. This is no secret. He openly doesn’t like recruiting. Mattison and Partridge- two defensive coaches- were far and away their best recruiters. Both have been gone for a couple years now. And it’s showing now. 

Michigan was way out in front for a pair of really big-time 5* Class of 2022 CB’s. No way they get them now. Both actually have started leaning to....Ohio State. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 02, 2020, 01:36:03 PM
Yeah, that was supposed to be more of an AND, rather than an or, as for the CFP AND where OSU is.

That I'm not sure some of those teams that were viewed as good enough, would be doing any better against this version of OSU.

And that an Orange Bowl now is not what an Orange Bowl was in 1999.
Agree. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 02, 2020, 01:41:14 PM
How’s this for a harbaugh replacement....Eric Bienemy.

That’s the style of offense I want to see. Explosive, vertical down the field passing game.

He’s got a lot of experience in the college ranks as well as nfl.

Go all in at him throw a ton of money at him.
Isn't he like one of the hottest names in the NFL? Michigan isn't a job with a lot of upside right now. I guess they could break the bank on him. There's some gaping holes on his resume, but it would win the press conference for sure.

(With new coaches, I like to check what people will complain about on the resume if it goes bad. He's got some good stuff on that front)
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: FearlessF on November 02, 2020, 02:19:32 PM
maybe some day Eric will go back to Boulder to resurrect the hapless Buffalo program

ya know, like Frost and Harbaugh
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: SFBadger96 on November 02, 2020, 03:59:09 PM
Michigan has tried the breaking the bank route already.

Honestly, Harbaugh was as good a bet as anyone, particularly if you were going to spend big money.

So if that didn't work, what now? 

Presumably you go through a normal coach hiring process where you look at the best folks coming up right now, rather than trying to poach someone with as much money as can be scrimped together. Because unless you think you can get Saban or Sweeney, there really isn't any point in breaking any more banks.

BUT, it's 2020, so does this season even count? Maybe Harbaugh gets a pass on that basis alone.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 02, 2020, 04:05:30 PM
.Eric Bienemy.
Go all in at him throw a ton of money at him.
No throw incentive's tone of money doesn't ensure anything but the progam getting jobbed
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 02, 2020, 04:05:51 PM
Presumably you go through a normal coach hiring process where you look at the best folks coming up right now, rather than trying to poach someone with as much money as can be scrimped together. Because unless you think you can get Saban or Sweeney, there really isn't any point in breaking any more banks.

BUT, it's 2020, so does this season even count? Maybe Harbaugh gets a pass on that basis alone.
It's 2020. Go after Urban Meyer :57:
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: SFBadger96 on November 02, 2020, 04:06:51 PM
Oh, now that would be poetic. 

I endorse that move.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 02, 2020, 04:51:02 PM
BUT, it's 2020, so does this season even count? Maybe Harbaugh gets a pass on that basis alone.
Nah. Once Ohio State murders Michigan by 35+ there is no way he’ll be able to save his job. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 02, 2020, 04:51:35 PM
It's 2020. Go after Urban Meyer :57:
Not even gonna lie, I would do it. At this point, what do they have to lose? Offer him $15 million a year.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 02, 2020, 04:56:29 PM
No throw incentive's tone of money doesn't ensure anything but the progam getting jobbed
Yeah more I think of it, it’s a bad move. Bienemy is a complete unknown. Would only win the press conference and give you a 1-2 year recruiting surge. If he doesn’t perform and doesn’t have the goods- you’re back to where you are right now. 

Only two guys I would break the bank on- I’m talking offer them insane deal worth $15-20 million a season- Meyer and Saban- and both are extremely unlikely. 

But if I was Michigan AD I would be calling Steven Ross right now and asking him to chip in about $5 mil a year to front the bill. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: FearlessF on November 02, 2020, 04:58:43 PM
I don't think there's enough whiskey in Texas for Urban to take the job
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Cincydawg on November 02, 2020, 05:02:04 PM
I would let JH finish the season.  Why not?  If miraculously they recover, you look great, and if they fade, the firing will be more clear cut and you save some money.

I would look at assistants somewhere.  

The counter to this is the odds they can find someone "better" than JH.  It would damage recruiting to start over I suspect.  It's not a full rebuild, they have some talent.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 02, 2020, 05:08:42 PM
Maybe they'll go all-in on Brohm after Purdue goes 9-0 with a win over OSU in the CCG.

After all, he's already proven he can do something JH can't. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: SFBadger96 on November 02, 2020, 05:40:27 PM
If Day really said they will hang 100 on Michigan--even in the locker room--Big Blue's chance of winning that game just increased on the inexact science of karma. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 02, 2020, 05:41:55 PM
If Day really said they will hang 100 on Michigan--even in the locker room--Big Blue's chance of winning that game just increased on the inexact science of karma. Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants.
Lol. Ohio State is going to drop at least 70 on Michigan. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 02, 2020, 07:50:42 PM
I'll say it is a complete mystery how Michigan has fielded such great corners and then been unable to recruit corners.
Didn't Hill go pro early, and Thomas opt out?
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 02, 2020, 07:52:03 PM
How’s this for a harbaugh replacement....Eric Bienemy.

That’s the style of offense I want to see. Explosive, vertical down the field passing game.

He’s got a lot of experience in the college ranks as well as nfl.

Go all in at him throw a ton of money at him.
That's who I want the Lions to hire
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 02, 2020, 08:08:42 PM
Didn't Hill go pro early, and Thomas opt out?
Yep, but they haven’t recruited anything behind those guys. 

Hill and Long were both 2016 class and AT was 2017. Pretty sure all 3 were GMatt/Partridge recruits. Harbaugh’s staff haven’t recruited anyone of note at CB in 2018, 2019, or 2020. 

2022 5 STARZ and top 10 player overall CB’s Domani Jackson and Will Johnson were early Michigan leans. Now both are more than likely going to wind up at Ohio State. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 02, 2020, 08:15:31 PM
Greenberg over at ESPN is pushing for his Jets to fire Adam Gase and hire Harbaugh.

DO IT.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: FearlessF on November 02, 2020, 08:17:46 PM
not sure Harbaugh is dumb enough to take that job

but, he could be
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 02, 2020, 08:21:52 PM
Greenberg over at ESPN is pushing for his Jets to fire Adam Gase and hire Harbaugh.

DO IT.
He's an idiot if he would suggest that.And Jeem in his delusion is prolly waiting for the Dallas job to open up
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 02, 2020, 08:25:48 PM
‘Crootin impact of this game already starting to be felt. 

4* OL/DL Rayshaun Benny CRYSTAL BALLZ flipping from Michigan to MSU. Sam Webb even flipping his. 

Also chatter that 3* WR commit Andrel Anthony is going to flip to MSU.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: MrNubbz on November 02, 2020, 08:29:51 PM
today kids seem to blow with the popular breeze,which many times creates logjams at positions.But this is a season Sparty would like to find out.

  And Michigan would have to be crazy to extend Harbaughs contract after losing to Sparty.IMO UM/JH are going to go their seperate ways.Save M running the table
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on November 03, 2020, 02:18:28 PM
today kids seem to blow with the popular breeze,which many times creates logjams at positions.But this is a season Sparty would like to find out.

  And Michigan would have to be crazy to extend Harbaughs contract after losing to Sparty.IMO UM/JH are going to go their seperate ways.Save M running the table
I think that caveat at the end is very important and I'll add that I'm not even sure that they have to run the table.  

I think a lot of these posts are overreaction to what was, at the end of the day, ONE GAME.  

I am not saying that this year's Michigan team IS going to recover to have a season similar to Ohio State's 2014, 2017, or 2018 seasons despite a bad loss.  All I am saying is that the season isn't over.  

The other thing I will note is that, IMHO, Michigan only has two-and-a-half games left that they will not be heavily favored in.  Check that, I see that they are only 3.5 point favorites over IU.  That is easy money, take Michigan.  The Hoosiers upset win over Penn State was a fluke, plain and simple.  They got outgained 488-211, got beat 27-16 in first downs and possessed the ball for less than half as long as the Nittany Lions.  They managed to eek out a win in OT only because PSU's three tunovers were more costly than Indiana's two and because PSU went 0-3 on FG's.  

Michigan's remaining games:

If Michigan beats Penn State and either beats or doesn't play Wisconsin then they should head to Columbus on December 12 playing for a spot in the B1GCG.  Even if they DO get blown out in Columbus (hardly a given IMHO), I still don't think you fire a coach who has you that close.  

Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Abba on November 03, 2020, 02:33:13 PM
If Michigan beats Penn State and either beats or doesn't play Wisconsin then they should head to Columbus on December 12 playing for a spot in the B1GCG.  Even if they DO get blown out in Columbus (hardly a given IMHO), I still don't think you fire a coach who has you that close. 


Agreed.  Time to extend his contract.  :93:
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 03, 2020, 02:56:19 PM
I am not saying that this year's Michigan team IS going to recover to have a season similar to Ohio State's 2014, 2017, or 2018 seasons despite a bad loss.  All I am saying is that the season isn't over. 
Michigan in general, and Michigan under Harbaugh, has not earned the benefit of the doubt in the way that Ohio State has. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 03, 2020, 07:21:51 PM
Michigan in general, and Michigan under Harbaugh, has not earned the benefit of the doubt in the way that Ohio State has.
Eh, they've earned the benefit to be fine.  They got blown out by Wisconsin last year, they lost to ND the year before, to a QB who was so bad he got benched a couple weeks later.

It wouldn't shock me if they went 7-2.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 05, 2020, 09:10:19 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edHeYVFRIuI&ab_channel=DetroitFreePress
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 05, 2020, 09:15:30 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edHeYVFRIuI&ab_channel=DetroitFreePress
this dude is a clown show. We need to send his ass back to shithole California.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 06, 2020, 10:19:38 AM
David Pollock suggested UM hire Hugh Freeze.  There is a 0% chance of the higher ups in Ann Arbor would sign off on that
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 06, 2020, 10:20:45 AM
David Pollock suggested UM hire Hugh Freeze.  There is a 0% chance of the higher ups in Ann Arbor would sign off on that
David Pollock has suffered one too many concussions. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: CatsbyAZ on November 06, 2020, 12:36:52 PM
Michigan has tried the breaking the bank route already.

Honestly, Harbaugh was as good a bet as anyone, particularly if you were going to spend big money.

So if that didn't work, what now?

Presumably you go through a normal coach hiring process where you look at the best folks coming up right now, rather than trying to poach someone with as much money as can be scrimped together. Because unless you think you can get Saban or Sweeney, there really isn't any point in breaking any more banks.

BUT, it's 2020, so does this season even count? Maybe Harbaugh gets a pass on that basis alone.


The results Michigan is getting is about the best they can hope for, but their fans can’t get past the inevitable losses to Ohio State, similarly to how SEC fanbases start unfairly holding losses to Alabama against their coach. The reality is that the SEC has little current solution for beating Bama and the ACC and Big Ten have no solution for expecting to beat Clemson and Ohio State. With Michigan splitting even Vs rivals Penn St, Michigan St, and Wisconsin, keep Harbaugh and learn to live with losing to the Buckeyes every year. At this point, firing Harbaugh because he can’t beat Ohio State shows as little understanding of reality as Jack N the Box firing their new CEO for failing to sell as many burgers as McDonalds.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 06, 2020, 01:10:10 PM
Yeah, that was supposed to be more of an AND, rather than an or, as for the CFP AND where OSU is.

That I'm not sure some of those teams that were viewed as good enough, would be doing any better against this version of OSU.

And that an Orange Bowl now is not what an Orange Bowl was in 1999.
To this point, ESPN has a story today about the 25th anniversary of Northwestern's 1995 Purple to Pasadena team.

The byline says "The 1995 Wildcats didn't win a title or even a bowl game, but their sudden rise from league laughingstock to Big Ten champs occupies a special sliver of college football history."

Didn't win a title?  A national title?  OK.  That could not have been farther from the narrative at the time
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 06, 2020, 03:39:55 PM
To this point, ESPN has a story today about the 25th anniversary of Northwestern's 1995 Purple to Pasadena team.

The byline says "The 1995 Wildcats didn't win a title or even a bowl game, but their sudden rise from league laughingstock to Big Ten champs occupies a special sliver of college football history."

Didn't win a title?  A national title?  OK.  That could not have been farther from the narrative at the time
That's not the byline. And if I'm looking at it correctly, it's not something to read too much into editorially. Basically, whoever wrote that didn't do it for the sake of imparting meaning to one point or another. 

It has to do with the SEO of the story. I could get into the nitty-gritty if you want, but sufficed to say, it's a set of throwaway words for the most part. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: FearlessF on November 06, 2020, 03:51:23 PM
Today in sports history: Michigan wins highest-scoring game in 131-year history in 2010


2010 — Michigan wins the highest scoring game in its 131-year history by stopping a 2-point conversion attempt in the third overtime for a 67-65 victory over Illinois.

They didn't refer to this as 12ing back in 2010
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 06, 2020, 04:33:18 PM
Northwestern won a game like that against Michigan, about ten years before that. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 06, 2020, 05:52:13 PM
That's not the byline. And if I'm looking at it correctly, it's not something to read too much into editorially. Basically, whoever wrote that didn't do it for the sake of imparting meaning to one point or another.

It has to do with the SEO of the story. I could get into the nitty-gritty if you want, but sufficed to say, it's a set of throwaway words for the most part.
Whatever the journalistic specificities are, the link to click on directly says they did not win a title.  That is viewing 1995 through a 2020 lens.

The point being, if Northwestern had that season now, I'm not even sure we would care A year later, let alone 25 years later. And if Jim Harbaugh had that season now, how much Goodwill would that actually buy him? Obviously it would mean beating Ohio State, which goes a long way, but just being a New York year 6 bowl winner who didn't factor into the national title discussion?
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 06, 2020, 06:32:05 PM
The results Michigan is getting is about the best they can hope for, but their fans can’t get past the inevitable losses to Ohio State, similarly to how SEC fanbases start unfairly holding losses to Alabama against their coach. The reality is that the SEC has little current solution for beating Bama and the ACC and Big Ten have no solution for expecting to beat Clemson and Ohio State. With Michigan splitting even Vs rivals Penn St, Michigan St, and Wisconsin, keep Harbaugh and learn to live with losing to the Buckeyes every year. At this point, firing Harbaugh because he can’t beat Ohio State shows as little understanding of reality as Jack N the Box firing their new CEO for failing to sell as many burgers as McDonalds.
Disagree. On a lot of this. 

Alabama was a dumpster before Saban got there. He turned it into what it is now. Florida was wandering in the wilderness post Spurrier. Until they landed Urban. And he took that program up to another level that even Spurrier didn’t reach. And then they went right back into the wilderness after Urban left. USC and Texas are the biggest glaring examples of why this game is all about the coach. They should be dominating every year just based on recruiting grounds. And they don’t. They both struggle as programs. Why? The coach.

This game is all about the coach. 

Harbaugh is a really good coach. He’s just not an elite one. I think maybe we were all duped by his stunning upset of USC and his one year of big success at Stanford. Looking back- upsets happen. Maybe he got too much credit for that. And let’s be honest- he went 12-1 with a veteran Andrew Luck. A guy that to this day is still the best NFL QB prospect since Elway. As good as Burrows was and Lawerence is- both pale in comparison as NFL Draft prospects. And Andrew Luck was for the most part living up to that billing until a rash of serious injuries ended his career prematurely. 

Then Jim went to the NFL and coached a team that had a loaded roster. He benched Alex Smith and inserted Kapernick- who had an amazing 2 year run- but looking back the league caught up to Kapernick and figured him out- and he never got any better. Kapernick regressed every year and starting stinking up the joint before he ever knelt- and now he’s out of the NFL and probably never coming back. He was a gimmick player in a gimmick offense- and as always the nfl defenses catch up to these tricks. 

We all thought Harbaugh was some QB whisperer- he isn’t. I think it was ELA who said it best- Harbaugh is a QB maximizer- not a developer. There’s a huge difference. Jim’s a pretty good coach, not a great one, and certainly not an elite one. 

You put Meyer at Michigan in 2011 instead of Hoke or Saban at Michigan in 2007 instead of RichRod and they’d have built juggernauts there too.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 06, 2020, 10:50:53 PM
Whatever the journalistic specificities are, the link to click on directly says they did not win a title.  That is viewing 1995 through a 2020 lens.

The point being, if Northwestern had that season now, I'm not even sure we would care A year later, let alone 25 years later. And if Jim Harbaugh had that season now, how much Goodwill would that actually buy him? Obviously it would mean beating Ohio State, which goes a long way, but just being a New York year 6 bowl winner who didn't factor into the national title discussion?
No. It's not. 

I've done some work in digital marketing. Stories, like that one, garner web traffic to one degree or another from search engines. Search engines read certain parts of a web page, and that short summery is a prominent part of them. When people write those summaries, they're trying to get words people might search. They already have "Big Ten champs" but if you can work "title" in there, you might get someone searching for "When was Northwestern's last Big Ten title."

And beyond that, it's a paraphrasing of someone trying to turn a fancy phrase: "How many non-national champion, non-bowl champion teams occupy a sliver of college football history? The sport has witnessed plenty of breakout seasons by bottom-feeders, but no major conference program represented failure more than Northwestern."

This is not about the lens looking back, it's about our lens in wanting so see something meaningful out of something innocuous. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 06, 2020, 10:57:33 PM
Disagree. On a lot of this.

Alabama was a dumpster before Saban got there. He turned it into what it is now. Florida was wandering in the wilderness post Spurrier. Until they landed Urban. And he took that program up to another level that even Spurrier didn’t reach. And then they went right back into the wilderness after Urban left. USC and Texas are the biggest glaring examples of why this game is all about the coach. They should be dominating every year just based on recruiting grounds. And they don’t. They both struggle as programs. Why? The coach.

Alabama was 10-2 and a top 10 team two years before Saban arrived. Florida was three years removed from finishing No. 3 in the country. That's not much of a dumpster fire and not much of a wilderness. 

The game is about the coach, but some places are easier and some places are not. At points, historically, Michigan has been that school, but it's less so now. It can still get to 10-2. The elite coach can get it better.

But the elite coach mostly has better options, so Michigan has to go find a coach it thinks can be elite and get him early. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: CatsbyAZ on November 10, 2020, 09:54:59 AM
Disagree. On a lot of this.

Alabama was a dumpster before Saban got there. He turned it into what it is now. Florida was wandering in the wilderness post Spurrier. Until they landed Urban. And he took that program up to another level that even Spurrier didn’t reach. And then they went right back into the wilderness after Urban left. USC and Texas are the biggest glaring examples of why this game is all about the coach. They should be dominating every year just based on recruiting grounds. And they don’t. They both struggle as programs. Why? The coach.

This game is all about the coach.



Probably better to fit this in the #FireHarbaugh thread, but your solution comes down to hiring one of the three or four coaches that contend for a national title every year: Saban, Meyer/Day, Swinney? Coaches whose conference rivals have almost no hope competing with season after season. Harbaugh was properly hyped; Stanford is still benefitting from his turnaround and his four years with the Niners were about the best in the NFL during his time there. Since it just hasn’t worked out in Ann Arbor I won’t be surprised if he’s back in the NFL soon. If instead Michigan looks to move on they’re dumping him for not winning at a top 3 percent level at the risk of further destabilizing the program with more 3 and Out coaching hires. Remember getting blown out by Kansas St in the Wild Wings Bowl? Granted it looks particularly bad losing to Indiana and a Michigan St team blown out by Iowa, but Michigan fans are long overdue to give up hope of challenging Ohio State.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 11, 2020, 03:59:29 PM
Alabama was 10-2 and a top 10 team two years before Saban arrived. Florida was three years removed from finishing No. 3 in the country. That's not much of a dumpster fire and not much of a wilderness.

The game is about the coach, but some places are easier and some places are not. At points, historically, Michigan has been that school, but it's less so now. It can still get to 10-2. The elite coach can get it better.

But the elite coach mostly has better options, so Michigan has to go find a coach it thinks can be elite and get him early.
Michigan was 11-2 and a top 7 team two years before RichRod arrived. Your point is....what? 

Alabama was a dumpster fire under Shula minus one lucky ass year. No different than Hoke who got incredibly lucky one season and went 11-2. Shula was 4-9, 6-6, 10-2, 6-6. I'd consider that record a dumpster fire- and so did the Alabama brass- and it's what got him fired. 

Florida was in the wilderness under Zook. They were 8-5, 8-5, 7-4 under Zook. That's what got him fired. Spurrier was at Florida for 12 years. He won 10 or more games in 10 of those 12 years. The two times he didn't win 10 or more games- he went 9-4. He never won less than 9 games in 12 years. Zook couldn't even get to 9 wins. They were in the wilderness compared to what they had been under Spurrier.

There aren't very many better options than Michigan. Still. They can go into any state in the country and land 5* kids. A recruiter like Meyer or Saban would clean up there.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on November 11, 2020, 05:20:31 PM
Florida was in the wilderness under Zook. They were 8-5, 8-5, 7-4 under Zook. That's what got him fired. Spurrier was at Florida for 12 years. He won 10 or more games in 10 of those 12 years. The two times he didn't win 10 or more games- he went 9-4. He never won less than 9 games in 12 years. Zook couldn't even get to 9 wins. They were in the wilderness compared to what they had been under Spurrier.
This is an excellent example of my "consistently good" metric when it comes to coaches.

Zook was above .500, and I'm assuming in bowl games every one of those three years. But they weren't "consistently good" enough for him to keep his job, because the recruiting and expectations at Florida are high enough that those records are not good enough. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Mdot21 on November 11, 2020, 05:33:29 PM
This is an excellent example of my "consistently good" metric when it comes to coaches.

Zook was above .500, and I'm assuming in bowl games every one of those three years. But they weren't "consistently good" enough for him to keep his job, because the recruiting and expectations at Florida are high enough that those records are not good enough.
The thing is, Florida wasn't some powerhouse before Spurrier though. A decade plus of dominance, and Spurrier turned them into a power. Florida wasn't going to be OK with 7 or 8 wins, after what Spurrier had just did the previous 12 years. Zook's biggest problem is probably that he just wasn't Steve Spurrier.

They rectified that situation fast though, because in came Urban Meyer who immediately turned it around and won 2 National Titles and 80+% of his games coached at Florida.
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on November 11, 2020, 08:09:11 PM


The point being, if Northwestern had that season now, I'm not even sure we would care A year later, let alone 25 years later. And if Jim Harbaugh had that season now, how much Goodwill would that actually buy him? Obviously it would mean beating Ohio State, which goes a long way, but just being a New York year 6 bowl winner who didn't factor into the national title discussion?

Actually all three of Northwestern's modern Big Ten Titles occured during years that they didn't have to play OSU (but beat Michigan). 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 11, 2020, 09:02:19 PM
Michigan was 11-2 and a top 7 team two years before RichRod arrived. Your point is....what?


Mainly that if dumpster fires can get in the top 10 and if wildernesses can last three years and end with talent that ends up national-title quality then the whole term is sort of meaningless. Both are just bombastic ways to say bad right now, or not good enough right now. And since that can change on a dime, it in essence means the act of turning them around isn't really all that impressive. 

If Brady Hoke can get a dumpster fire to 11 wins in Year 1, then of course the best in the sport can get programs really good in Year 2 or 3. It makes the previous situation almost meaningless to talk about. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: bayareabadger on November 11, 2020, 09:06:52 PM

The point being, if Northwestern had that season now, I'm not even sure we would care A year later, let alone 25 years later. And if Jim Harbaugh had that season now, how much Goodwill would that actually buy him? Obviously it would mean beating Ohio State, which goes a long way, but just being a New York year 6 bowl winner who didn't factor into the national title discussion?
So BB got me thinking on this. 

The real key is that NW had been SO bad and didn't have any real lead up. It would be like if Baylor a few years back had gone from bad to conference champs. It would be like if Vandy suddenly won the SEC. It would be like if that Wake team that won the ACC was quite good. 

I think we're in a weird spot because we just don't have as many teams that are that bad anymore. 
Title: Re: Michigan State (1-1) at #13 Michigan (1-1) Post Game
Post by: ELA on November 11, 2020, 11:24:31 PM
Yeah, and IMO part of the problem is now, they'd have to go play OSU in Indy, and probably lose.

Look, college football has BY FAR the most deserving champ every year.  You take the sport where the better team most frequently wins, and you've added extra layers of protection, but I think it's taken a lot away.  Andy Staples and Nicole Auerbach were discussing this on his podcast this week.  We went from 2 to 4, and we've eliminated a lot of the randomness, while simultaneously made the CFP some sort of easily attainable goal.  Like, most programs didn't judge a coach for not finishing in the top 2, so long as he was still winning conference titles, but we went to 4, and suddenly, that became the metric.

It's two completely different but sort of related critiques of mine, of the CFP/CCG era.  We know who the best teams are.  The flukiness/importance of a singular regular season game has been diminished by the redundancies built into the system now.  While simultaneously diminishing the importance of most of those games.