CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on July 28, 2020, 12:35:59 AM
-
What are the most famous 'bad' coaches ever? Along the lines of Lane Kiffin, from the perspective of a Tennessee fan.
The more commonly known, the better.
-
I am most familiar with Iowa. So Frank Lauterbur was the worst coach at Iowa.
23-0 his final two years at Toledo. Iowa took the bait. It looked good.
4-28-1 in three years at Iowa.
-
Isnt this the Charlie Weis and Co. Camp?
-
Isnt this the Charlie Weis and Co. Camp?
I am here alone and your sense of humor, or irony, made me laugh audibly.
-
I feel like this is the Whats the hardest record to break in baseball, and people expect a long debate until I bring up Cy Young's 749 complete games or 7,356 ip.
Yeah, Joe's 56 game streak is nice and all, same w Kiffin but were talking about a schematic advantage the likes of which you have never seen. Weis owns this, unanimouslyup. The Paul Wulff's of the world have no chance in this. That's why I suggested a Camp with Weis as the Head Master.
-
Isnt this the Charlie Weis and Co. Camp?
(https://media1.tenor.com/images/f4c9e6d0c269030df252f4d895ade38d/tenor.gif?itemid=13030909)
-
Yes, it's a tough category - most bad HCs don't last and are lost to time. So maybe HCs along the lines of Bobby Petrino or that GT guy who lied on this resume.....O'Something.
Maybe ordinary HCs who bumbled and f-ed up their life.
-
I thought Mark Richt was mediocre. I think of a bad coach as one who loses to teams with a lot less talent too often.
-
Bobby Petrino's college record was 119-56. He may have been a scoundrel but he was far from the worst coach. That honor goes to Ears Whitworth who was 4-24-2 at Alabama in the 50's.
-
I would nominate John L Smith during his time a MSU.
I'm not trying to flame on MSU. I just saw a few games that I thought MSU was a better team, but JLS was able to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, so to say.
-
Bobby Petrino's college record was 119-56. He may have been a scoundrel but he was far from the worst coach. That honor goes to Ears Whitworth who was 4-24-2 at Alabama in the 50's.
If it weren't for Ears, there wouldn't have been Bear.
-
I'm also going to nominate another ND coach, Ty Willingham. He had that one good season in South Bend, but followed that up with two mediocre ones, and then used that 2002 season to get hired at Washington. He has the dubious distinction of going 0-12 in 2008 - something you might expect to happen on occasion at Washington *State*, but not UW.
-
I thought Mark Richt was mediocre. I think of a bad coach as one who loses to teams with a lot less talent too often.
He was in Cooper's catagory - in a prospect rich state's Flagship University.Held on to the position longer than his talent/direction warrented
-
(https://advancelocal-adapter-image-uploads.s3.amazonaws.com/image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width2048/img/osu_impact/photo/brady-hoke-rich-rodriguez-b5abb1c69f2f18c6.jpg)
-
I'm also going to nominate another ND coach, Ty Willingham. He had that one good season in South Bend,
Ya I bought into the hype about him coming from Stanford.Figured he'd recruit for ND really well.He's a case of the grass isn't always greener
And Brutas I don't think Hoke did that bad of a job.Rich Rod was another one who was practically worshipped at his alma mater but kinda did them dirty.Again thinking the grass was greener.......
-
He was in Cooper's catagory - in a prospect rich state's Flagship University.Held on to the position longer than his talent/direction warrented
It’s an interesting case with Richt. He had the second-best winning percentage in program history, behind only a guy who coached from 1920-22.
He’s an interesting case of close the best you got, but his presence doesn’t allow for the dream of something more. Maybe Kirby tips that, though his four-year winning percentage trails Richt’s.
-
Yes, it's a tough category - most bad HCs don't last and are lost to time. So maybe HCs along the lines of Bobby Petrino or that GT guy who lied on this resume.....O'Something.
Maybe ordinary HCs who bumbled and f-ed up their life.
O’Leary went 52-33 at GT and 81-68 at UCF with five years of nine wins or more.
As you said, the issue is guys who get good jobs did well at small jobs. Guys who get very god jobs often did well at decent to good jobs (Rich Rod).
so the best bet is coordinators who jumped in (Weis) or guys with short first stints.
Darrell Hazel is a good one
Chris Ash
Stan Parrish 9-51-1 in six-plus years at K State, Ball State and three interim games at EMU.
Will Muschamp is an interesting one because he’s had two good seasons and another that was close to as good as you could expect in eight, with two bad and three blah. Florida should be better than it was, South Carolina, maybe a little. McElwain was modestly successful On average, though his personality let to a quick ouster when it went bad.
Edit: My fun fact was wrong because the spreadsheet was limited. I regret the error.
-
Rich Rod was a bad fit at Michigan. Gerry Faust at Notre Dame back in the early 80s was bad. I believe Faust was a head high school coach before taking the job in South Bend.
Cooper at Ohio State was great except for his record against Michigan.
-
Cooper also had a poor record in Bowl Games.
-
Don Morton, University of Wisconsin, 1987-1989. 6-27 record.
3-8, 1-7, 10th place
1-10, 1-7, 10th place
2-9, 1-7, 9th place
John Coatta, University of Wisconsin, 1967-1969 (UW passed on Bo Schembechler to hire this clown). 3-26-1 record.
0-9-1, 0-6-1, T 9th place
0-10, 0-7, 10th
3-7, 3-4, T 5th
-
Cooper at Ohio State was great except for his record against Michigan.
He had a problem when the rosters were even.His bowl record was almost as dismal as it was vs Michigan
-
Rich Rod was a bad fit at Michigan. Gerry Faust at Notre Dame back in the early 80s was bad. I believe Faust was a head high school coach before taking the job in South Bend.
Faust might be a good call.
I don't believe a HC fails because they're a "bad fit." Winning makes you a good fit. If a guy can't get buy-in or his system requires a 3-8 season, then that's on him. He's not that good in all aspects.
Fit is just a gobbly-gook term, like "spiritual."
-
Don Morton, University of Wisconsin, 1987-1989. 6-27 record.
3-8, 1-7, 10th place
1-10, 1-7, 10th place
2-9, 1-7, 9th place
John Coatta, University of Wisconsin, 1967-1969 (UW passed on Bo Schembechler to hire this clown). 3-26-1 record.
0-9-1, 0-6-1, T 9th place
0-10, 0-7, 10th
3-7, 3-4, T 5th
Yeah, no one's ever heard of these guys.
-
RichRod wasn’t a bad coach imo, just a bad fit at Michigan.
Brady Hoke on the other hand was just a bad coach.
-
John Coatta, University of Wisconsin, 1967-1969 (UW passed on Bo Schembechler to hire this clown). 3-26-1 record.
Oops!
-
RichRod wasn’t a bad coach imo, just a bad fit at Michigan.
Brady Hoke on the other hand was just a bad coach.
I can buy that for Hoke. He was unimpressive at Ball State of a while before landing a run of talent (Ball State is a terrible place to try to win). Managed a very quick turnaround at SD State, then seemed to solve many of Michigan's problems in Year one, before a weird cross fade of recruiting going up and success going down.
-
RichRod wasn’t a bad coach imo, just a bad fit at Michigan.
Brady Hoke on the other hand was just a bad coach.
It's entirely possible to be a good head coach at the FCS or G5 level, but totally suck at a premier Power 5 school. I think that best describes Hoke.
He's back at San Diego State. I have no reason to believe he can't keep the program afloat.
-
Yeah, no one's ever heard of these guys.
Morton has some staying power in Wisconsin. People talk about him like OSU fans talk about Cooper, with that eye-rolling distain. Say "Veer" around older UW fans, they bitch about Don Morton. Say Don Morton "The stupid veer."
Anywho, I pulled up lists of coaching records and scanned people with terrible records for names I knew or people who seemed interesting. A lot of assistants who bombed out.
David Beaty
Norm Chow
Tom Cable
Jim Caldwell (belied by NFL success)
Mike DeBord
Bob Diaco
Jon Embree
Ron English
Turner Gill
Vic Koenning
Dave Kragthorpe
Mike Locksley
Chuck Long
Not yet, but eventually Scot Loeffler
Carl Pelini
Paul Petrino
Ted Roof
Greg Robinson
Kevin Steele
Lou Saban
Buddy Teevens
Don Treadwell
Everett Withers
Jim Wacker
Jennings Whitworth (went 22-27 at OkSU, got Bama, went 4-24-2, replaced by Bear)
-
Yeah, no one's ever heard of these guys.
Says the guy who started watching college football in 1996.
-
Isnt this the Charlie Weis and Co. Camp?
As much as I liked him as a high school head coach, I would have to say Gerry Faust at Notre Dame was much much worse.
Sorry, just read through the thread, others have mentioned him.
-
It's entirely possible to be a good head coach at the FCS or G5 level, but totally suck at a premier Power 5 school. I think that best describes Hoke.
He's back at San Diego State. I have no reason to believe he can't keep the program afloat.
It might be, but Hoke is hard to pin down.
He went 15-31 his first four years at Ball State, though the fourth team finished 3-1 and bothered Michigan some in the loss.
Then he goes 7-6 with a bowl loss, everything comes together for a 12-1 run that ends with a choke in the MAC title game. He takes over a bad SD State program, has one bad year, one 9-4 year.
I don't even know if that makes him a good G5 HC. Probably much better than average, because the average is low, but still not very good.
-
Bobby Petrino's college record was 119-56. He may have been a scoundrel but he was far from the worst coach. That honor goes to Ears Whitworth who was 4-24-2 at Alabama in the 50's.
That doesn't begin to tell the story. How bad was Whitworth? Since he left, Bama has played 62 seasons of football and has been shut out 11 times. In Whitworth's THREE seasons, Bama was shut out 11 times. Bama couldn't score much less win with Whitworth.
-
He had a problem when the rosters were even.His bowl record was almost as dismal as it was vs Michigan
Cooper also had a poor record in Bowl Games.
Cooper at Ohio State was great except for his record against Michigan.
As soon as I saw this thread I knew that it would generate a Cooper discussion.
Here are the facts:
- .715 overall winning percentage (111-43-4), 10th best in program history and only #6 Woody Hayes has a better record with the same or more games.
- .692 conference winning percentage (70-30-4), 14th best in program history and only #6 Woody Hayes has a better record with the same or more conference games.
- 3 Conference titles which is tied for fourth best with Meyer and John Wilce behind only Woody (13), Tressel (6), and Bruce (4).
- 3 postseason wins, fifth best behind only Woody, Urban, Tressel, and Earle Bruce.
That much is good.
Now the bad:
- 2-10-1 against TTUN
- 7 bowl losses (3-7 record)
Cooper is hard to get a read on. Excluding the last two games of the year he was one of Ohio State's greatest coaches. Only "one name" legends Woody, Urban, and Tressel are definitively better. His record against Michigan and in bowls was abysmal. Only the one or two year failures are comparably bad.
I also think that, to really understand Cooper's tenure it is important to make a distinction between his first five years and his last eight. Cooper inherited an empty cupboard (Earle Bruce's recruiting failures were a major cause of his dismissal) and did about as well as could be expected:
- 1988: 4-6-1 ending with a very competitive loss to a vastly superior (9-2-1) Michigan team. Obviously going sub .500 is never a good thing but the team seemed to be improving and giving a much better Michigan team a solid run for their money to end the season looked pretty good.
- 1989: 8-4 and the four losses were to teams that finished 9-2-1 (USC), 10-2 (Illinois), 10-2 (Michigan), and 10-2 (Auburn) and only the USC loss on the West Coast was a complete blowout. This wasn't great, obviously, but did appear to be heading in the right direction.
- 1990: 7-4-1 ending with an embarrassing Liberty Bowl loss to Air Force. The Buckeyes went into THE GAME at 7-2-1 and the Michigan loss was close (3 points) but still bad. That and the embarrassing bowl loss probably should have gotten Cooper canned at the end of 1990 but they didn't.
- 1991: 8-4 ending with a loss to Michigan and a bowl loss to Syracuse. Syracuse was 10-2 so, in theory, this wasn't bad but tOSU should have won. The Orange went 10-2 the next year as well and that included getting smoked by the Buckeyes in the Carrier Dome early in the season. Additionally, the Michigan loss wasn't even remotely competitive (31-3). Cooper definitely should have been fired at this point.
- 1992: 8-3-1 and FINALLY, a non-loss to Michigan. A one-score bowl loss to a very good (10-2) UGA team isn't bad and the tie with Michigan was actually pretty good considering that they were 9-0-3 with one of the other ties being with a very good Notre Dame team. The problem with this season was that Ohio State had back-to-back losses to ~.500 teams in early October (5-6 Wisconsin, 6-5-1 Illinois).
In those five years Ohio State wasn't great. The 0-8-1 against Michigan and in bowls are terrible.
After that, Cooper's recruiting was so good that it carried him. From 1993-2000 Ohio State was very good . . . except against Michigan and in bowls:
- 1993: 10-1-1 with an actual bowl win! Other than getting shutout by the Wolverines this was a great season!
- 1994: 9-4 with a WIN over Michigan! I can't really complain about the bowl loss. the 9-3 Buckeyes got matched up with an 11-1 Bama team that had lost only once and only by a point to Florida in the SECCG and the Buckeyes kept it within one score. The other three losses were less forgivable. The Buckeyes got annihilated by PSU (63-14), lost to a mediocre (7-5) Illinois team at home, and lost to a mediocre (7-4) Washington team on the road.
- 1995: 11-2 ending with losses to Michigan in Ann Arbor and Tennessee in Orlando. Of Cooper's 10 losses to Michigan, this one is the most annoying. The Buckeyes were 11-0 and ranked #2. It was a great season with a horrible ending.
- 1996: 11-1 with a Rose Bowl win! The Buckeyes were undefeated and ranked #2 heading into the Michigan game (sound familiar?) then lost to Michigan again. The bowl win was nice but anti-climactic after yet another upset loss to Michigan.
- 1997: 10-3 ending with losses to Michigan in Ann Arbor and FSU in NOLA. Honestly, my only complaint with this season was getting run off the field by FSU. The other two losses were close in Happy Valley to a team that was ranked #2 at the time and close in Ann Arbor to a team that was ranked #1 at the time.
- 1998: 11-1 and this was Cooper's only season that ended with wins over Michigan and in a bowl. The problem was that the #1 ranked Buckeyes inexplicably lost at home to an MSU team that finished 6-6. The Buckeyes were oh-so-close to appearing in the very first BCSCG.
- 1999: 6-6 obviously a rebuilding year after nearly winning it all in 1998. Through October this year looked decent. At the end of October the Buckeyes were 6-3 and ranked #20 and the three losses were to very good Miami, Wisconsin, and PSU teams. Then the bottom fell out. The Buckeyes ended the year with back-to-back-to-back losses to MSU, IL, and Michigan and only the Michigan loss was competitive.
- 2000: 8-4 and the end. Heading into THE GAME the Buckeyes were 8-2 and #12. The losses were to mediocre (6-6) Minnesota and (8-4) Purdue teams but that could have been forgiven if the season had ended with wins. Instead the Buckeyes, yet again, ended the year by losing to Michigan and in a bowl.
In 13 years Cooper's seasons ended:
- 6 times with losses to both Michigan and the bowl opponent. (1989, 1990, 1991, 1995, 1997, 2000)
- 2 times with a loss to Michigan and no bowl. (1988, 1999)
- 2 times with a loss to Michigan and a bowl win. (1993, 1996)
- 1 time with a tie with Michigan and a bowl loss. (1992)
- 1 time with a win over Michigan and a bowl loss. (1994)
- 1 time with wins over both Michigan and the bowl opponent. (1998)
The odd thing is that Cooper might be two or three games from being remembered not just as one of the greats at Ohio State but as one of the greats in CFB. Seriously, three games:
- Convert the 1996 Michigan loss to a win. Ohio State wins the 1996 NC (Sorry Florida).
- Convert the 1995 Michigan loss to a win. Ohio State would have gone to the Rose Bowl and frankly, USC would have been an easier game than Tennessee. There is a good chance that tOSU wins and at least shares the NC (Sorry Nebraska).
- Convert the 1998 MSU loss to a win. Ohio State plays Tennessee in the very first BCSNCG where a win (that would have been at least a 50/50 shot) gets them another NC.
Make those changes and Cooper is 5-7-1 against Michigan with three NC's. Moreover, four of the seven losses and the tie with Michigan were in Cooper's first five years
after which he goes 5-3.
-
It might be, but Hoke is hard to pin down.
He went 15-31 his first four years at Ball State, though the fourth team finished 3-1 and bothered Michigan some in the loss.
Then he goes 7-6 with a bowl loss, everything comes together for a 12-1 run that ends with a choke in the MAC title game. He takes over a bad SD State program, has one bad year, one 9-4 year.
I don't even know if that makes him a good G5 HC. Probably much better than average, because the average is low, but still not very good.
In retrospect, I guess I didn't really pay a heck of a lot of attention to his head coaching career. His lone noteworthy season at Ball State probably had more to do with Nate Davis than Hoke. Regardless, it got him a better gig at San Diego State, but he was only there for two seasons - hardly a quality sample size. His first season was mediocre at best (but to be fair, the 'tecs were completely awful for quite some time prior to his hire) but he went 9-4 the next season, which led to Michigan hiring him.
Similarly, Jim McElwain had that strong season at Colorado State before Florida hired him, which the Gators ended up regretting. Mac is back in the MAC, which is probably where he's best suited.
The moral of the story is, one big season at the FCS/G5 is hardly a guarantee that the coach can replicate that at the P5 level. It ends up backfiring, more often than not.
-
Rich Rod was a bad fit at Michigan. Gerry Faust at Notre Dame back in the early 80s was bad. I believe Faust was a head high school coach before taking the job in South Bend.
Cooper at Ohio State was great except for his record against Michigan.
Moeller High School[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gerry_Faust&action=edit§ion=2&editintro=Template:BLP_editintro)]
Faust had a highly successful run at Moeller High School (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moeller_High_School) in Cincinnati, Ohio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati,_Ohio) from 1962 to 1980, where he built the program from scratch.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust#cite_note-und.com-2) The Crusaders under Faust had a 178–23–2 record and included seven unbeaten seasons, four national prep titles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_School_Football_National_Championship), and five Ohio state titles in his last six seasons.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust#cite_note-LAT112408-3) One of Faust's linebackers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linebacker) at Moeller was John Boehner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boehner), who later became a United States Congressman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress) and the 61st Speaker of the United States House of Representatives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust#cite_note-4)
Faust was inducted into the National Federation of State High School Associations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Federation_of_State_High_School_Associations) Hall of Fame in 2004.[5]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust#cite_note-5)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust)
-
If it weren't for Ears, there wouldn't have been Bear.
If it weren't for Earl Brown, there wouldn't have been Shug at Auburn. Ralph "Shug" Jordan went 176-63-6 from 1951-1975. Prior to that, Earl Brown was 3-22-4 from 1948-1950.
Was really as bad, if not worse, than Whitworth. Was shut out 11 times in his three years. Same as Whitworth.
-
The worst coach at UGA in my lifetime was of course Ray Goff, who was a pretty good QB back in the day. I am pretty sure he put in the effort and time but lacked whatever it is that makes for a good coach, which is a thing we could discuss all day.
Kirby is a very good recruiter apparently, or has folks working for him who are good. I have a sense the assistant coaches are really important in making the HC look good, or bad. When Richt had good assistants, he looked pretty decent.
I was not a fan of Grantham.
-
The moral of the story is, one big season at the FCS/G5 is hardly a guarantee that the coach can replicate that at the P5 level. It ends up backfiring, more often than not.
Ehhh, kind of?
In truth, most hires, when you go out long enough, fail. And most hires have shorter track records than you'd like, and longer track records end up backfiring a good bit as well.
It's all just a big dumb crapshoot.
-
The worst coach at UGA in my lifetime was of course Ray Goff, who was a pretty good QB back in the day. I am pretty sure he put in the effort and time but lacked whatever it is that makes for a good coach, which is a thing we could discuss all day.
Kirby is a very good recruiter apparently, or has folks working for him who are good. I have a sense the assistant coaches are really important in making the HC look good, or bad. When Richt had good assistants, he looked pretty decent.
I was not a fan of Grantham.
Goff did bring you guys future UGA DC Will Muschamp. He'll look good working for Kirby.
Goff's run was odd. Quick descent after Dooley settled into Richt-land. Sudden rise to 9-10 wins, drop to .500 and out. I've read he's a stupendously nice guy by most accounts, so that's at least good.
-
Yeah, Luke Fickel was hilariously bad as OSU's interim head coach, but is doing quite well at the G5 level.
-
Yeah, Luke Fickel was hilariously bad as OSU's interim head coach, but is doing quite well at the G5 level.
Does that speak to P5 coaching ability or just thrown into the fire after your coach quits in May coaching ability?
Also, when you're in that spot and inherit the OC-QB coach combo of Bollman-Siciliano with the choice of Joe Bauserman or a freshman Braxton Miller at QB, yikes.
(I looked up Siciliano's background, and it is among the most threadbare resumes I've ever seen. It's amazing)
-
Does that speak to P5 coaching ability or just thrown into the fire after your coach quits in May coaching ability?
Also, when you're in that spot and inherit the OC-QB coach combo of Bollman-Siciliano with the choice of Joe Bauserman or a freshman Braxton Miller at QB, yikes.
(I looked up Siciliano's background, and it is among the most threadbare resumes I've ever seen. It's amazing)
I guess, but he had more talent at his disposal than everyone he went up against. The year before they went 12-1, with a share of the Big Ten Title. The year after they went 12-0, and would have smoked ND in the NCG if eligible. The Fickel roster was completely loaded up with guys from one or both of those teams. The fact that he couldn't muster 8 or 9 wins is ridiculous, frankly.
On a more macro level, OSU had one at least a share of the Big Ten Title in each of the six years prior to the Fickel season, and they have one at least a share of their Big Ten Divisional Title every season since. Yet he tied the school record for most losses in a season, right in the middle of a run like that? That is an alarming level of incompetence.
-
Ray Goff's wardrobe would make P chryst blush
-
I guess, but he had more talent at his disposal than everyone he went up against. The year before they went 12-1, with a share of the Big Ten Title. The year after they went 12-0, and would have smoked ND in the NCG if eligible. The Fickel roster was completely loaded up with guys from one or both of those teams. The fact that he couldn't muster 8 or 9 wins is ridiculous, frankly.
On a more macro level, OSU had one at least a share of the Big Ten Title in each of the six years prior to the Fickel season, and they have one at least a share of their Big Ten Divisional Title every season since. Yet he tied the school record for most losses in a season, right in the middle of a run like that? That is an alarming level of incompetence.
Perhaps.
But you still have a chaos year, miserable QB play, mess of injuries. Looking back at those play-makers, I suppose the argument would've been Hyde could've been used more/better. Boom Herron was your best returning play-maker. He only plays half the year. Top receiver is lost after four games.
It struck me as a coalescing of factors, not the least of which was you had this very finely built program. The offense often lagged, but a super veteran head coach seemed to always steer them to close wins. It meant success, but perhaps more vulnerable if things were out of sync. I understand the dip, but he's also sandwiched by one very good coach at close to his best and a guy on the short list for best of all time. That 2012 team also did go 12-0, but it needed a mess of close wins to pull it off. Without one of the best coaches ever, it's probably a more sensible good record. (directing that 2012 season is fascinating)
Anyway, this is not to say he was good, just that his P5 coaching is almost a blank slate. Just an incomplete. Probably not to the level of alarming incompetence.
-
As soon as I saw this thread I knew that it would generate a Cooper discussion.
3 Conference titles which is tied for fourth best with Meyer and John Wilce behind only Woody (13), Tressel (6), and Bruce (4).
Yes but Tressel & Bruce in the same relative time period with less years than Cooper
In those five years Ohio State wasn't great. The 0-8-1 against Michigan and in bowls are terrible.
That right there he gave a Blue Blood a Blacke Eye and blue balls.And was the reason most of us wanted him out.Nice guy,family man,friend,neighbor - not the guy to take a program to the topThe 13 NFL drafts following Coopers seasons in C-Bus were telling.When we last revisited this subject - 3 yrs ago or so,I counted draft picks.From NFL drafts from 1988 thru 2000 tOSU had 64 players taken.As fate would have it Michigan also had 64 players drafted during that stretch.So their should not have been that disparity of 2 wins in 13 seasons.Let's not forget he was on of the 1st CFB HC to ink a $1,000,000.per contract
-
Bill Callahan head coaching
2002 Raiders 11-5
2003 Raiders 4-12
2004 Huskers 5-6
2005 Huskers 8-4
2006 Huskers 9-5
2007 Huskers 5-7
2019 Redskins 3-8
-
Perhaps.
But you still have a chaos year, miserable QB play, mess of injuries. Looking back at those play-makers, I suppose the argument would've been Hyde could've been used more/better. Boom Herron was your best returning play-maker. He only plays half the year. Top receiver is lost after four games.
It struck me as a coalescing of factors, not the least of which was you had this very finely built program. The offense often lagged, but a super veteran head coach seemed to always steer them to close wins. It meant success, but perhaps more vulnerable if things were out of sync. I understand the dip, but he's also sandwiched by one very good coach at close to his best and a guy on the short list for best of all time. That 2012 team also did go 12-0, but it needed a mess of close wins to pull it off. Without one of the best coaches ever, it's probably a more sensible good record. (directing that 2012 season is fascinating)
Anyway, this is not to say he was good, just that his P5 coaching is almost a blank slate. Just an incomplete. Probably not to the level of alarming incompetence.
Yeah, he gets a mulligan. No argument there. Nevertheless, he took a Ferrari for a test drive, and wrapped it around a tree. Any other HC in the Big Ten could have guided that roster to 8 or 9 wins.
He did get to hire one assistant. In theory he could have brought in a guy to help with the offense. Instead he hired his buddy Mike Vrabel, who had zero coaching experience at the time because he was still playing in the NFL and had to retire in order to take the gig.
-
But you still have a chaos year, miserable QB play, mess of injuries. Looking back at those play-makers, I suppose the argument would've been Hyde could've been used more/better. Boom Herron was your best returning play-maker. He only plays half the year. Top receiver is lost after four games.
It struck me as a coalescing of factors, not the least of which was you had this very finely built program. The offense often lagged, but a super veteran head coach seemed to always steer them to close wins. It meant success, but perhaps more vulnerable if things were out of sync. I understand the dip, but he's also sandwiched by one very good coach at close to his best and a guy on the short list for best of all time. That 2012 team also did go 12-0, but it needed a mess of close wins to pull it off. Without one of the best coaches ever, it's probably a more sensible good record. (directing that 2012 season is fascinating)
Anyway, this is not to say he was good, just that his P5 coaching is almost a blank slate. Just an incomplete. Probably not to the level of alarming incompetence.
I agree that 2011 was a compilation of factors and I'll also add that 2011 wasn't NEARLY as bad as their record while 2012 wasn't NEARLY as good as their record.
As my first evidence of this, I'll submit the 2011 and 2012 Purdue games because I attended both.
- 2011, at Purdue: Ohio State was down 20-14 and scored what should have been the game-winning TD with just 0:55 on the clock. They then flubbed the XP, went to OT, and lost 23-20.
- 2012, in Columbus: Ohio State was down 22-14 LATE in the fourth quarter and threw an INT that looked to clinch the loss. Then, miraculously, Purdue imploded (False start on 1st and 10, 1 yard gain on 1st and 15, 1 yard gain on 2nd and 14, 7 yard rush on 3rd and 13, punt for 39 net yards). Then tOSU scored, got the 2pt conversion, andn won in OT.
The 12-0 in 2012 included all of the following one-score games:
- OT over PU
- OT over UW
- 1 point over MSU
- 3 points over IU
- 5 points over M
- 7 points over Cal
Going 6-0 in one-score games is incredibly lucky.
The 6-7 in 2011 included all of the following one-score games:
- 5 points over Toledo
- 4 points over UW
- OT loss to PU
- 3 point loss to MSU
- 6 point loss to PSU
- 6 point loss to M
- 7 point loss to UNL (I was there, that game looked easily won and then it didn't)
- 7 point loss to UF
The 2011 team went 2-6 in eight one-score games while the 2012 team went 6-0 in six one-score games. If both would have gone .500 they would have been:
- 8-5 in 2011, not great but not comically bad
- 9-3 in 2012, good but not great
Instead they went 6-7 and 12-0 so it looks like they were horrible in 2011 and great in 2012 but they weren't either of those things.
-
Says the guy who started watching college football in 1996.
The two circles of people playing CAH and have heard of those old Wisconsin HCs do not a Venn diagram make.
-
Bill Callahan head coaching
2002 Raiders 11-5
2003 Raiders 4-12
2004 Huskers 5-6
2005 Huskers 8-4
2006 Huskers 9-5
2007 Huskers 5-7
2019 Redskins 3-8
Or just the idea of Nebraska letting go of the option.
-
The two circles of people playing CAH and have heard of those old Wisconsin HCs do not a Venn diagram make.
BS. Any fan of a Big Ten school knows those coaches - at a minimum. Opposing fans adored them.
-
Or just the idea of Nebraska letting go of the option.
ruining a historic run from 1962
-
I agree that 2011 was a compilation of factors and I'll also add that 2011 wasn't NEARLY as bad as their record while 2012 wasn't NEARLY as good as their record.
As my first evidence of this, I'll submit the 2011 and 2012 Purdue games because I attended both.
- 2011, at Purdue: Ohio State was down 20-14 and scored what should have been the game-winning TD with just 0:55 on the clock. They then flubbed the XP, went to OT, and lost 23-20.
- 2012, in Columbus: Ohio State was down 22-14 LATE in the fourth quarter and threw an INT that looked to clinch the loss. Then, miraculously, Purdue imploded (False start on 1st and 10, 1 yard gain on 1st and 15, 1 yard gain on 2nd and 14, 7 yard rush on 3rd and 13, punt for 39 net yards). Then tOSU scored, got the 2pt conversion, andn won in OT.
The 12-0 in 2012 included all of the following one-score games:
- OT over PU
- OT over UW
- 1 point over MSU
- 3 points over IU
- 5 points over M
- 7 points over Cal
Going 6-0 in one-score games is incredibly lucky.
The 6-7 in 2011 included all of the following one-score games:
- 5 points over Toledo
- 4 points over UW
- OT loss to PU
- 3 point loss to MSU
- 6 point loss to PSU
- 6 point loss to M
- 7 point loss to UNL (I was there, that game looked easily won and then it didn't)
- 7 point loss to UF
The 2011 team went 2-6 in eight one-score games while the 2012 team went 6-0 in six one-score games. If both would have gone .500 they would have been:
- 8-5 in 2011, not great but not comically bad
- 9-3 in 2012, good but not great
Instead they went 6-7 and 12-0 so it looks like they were horrible in 2011 and great in 2012 but they weren't either of those things.
I would postulate that a coaches record in one score games is directly correlated to their talents as a head coach. In 2012 Urban found a way to win all the one score games. Tressel made a career out of figuring out a way to win most of his one score games. Dantonio in his hey day won all kinds of one score games at MSU. Fickell on the other hand, choked more often then not in that situation. Blowing a 29 point lead, or whatever it was, against Nebraska? Sigh....
Fickell seems to have improved in this area at Cincinnati. In 2017 he was 3-1 in one score games, even though he was 4-8 overall. In 2018 he was 3-1 in one score games, 11-2 overall. Then last year he went 4-1 in one score games, 11-3 overall, and won his first conference title.
So he is 10-3 in one score games over three seasons at Cincy, en route to a 26-13 overall record.
-
I'll use Cooper, maybe connected to UM. Thanks, guys.
-
I would postulate that a coaches record in one score games is directly correlated to their talents as a head coach. In 2012 Urban found a way to win all the one score games. Tressel made a career out of figuring out a way to win most of his one score games. Dantonio in his hey day won all kinds of one score games at MSU. Fickell on the other hand, choked more often then not in that situation. Blowing a 29 point lead, or whatever it was, against Nebraska? Sigh....
Fickell seems to have improved in this area at Cincinnati. In 2017 he was 3-1 in one score games, even though he was 4-8 overall. In 2018 he was 3-1 in one score games, 11-2 overall. Then last year he went 4-1 in one score games, 11-3 overall, and won his first conference title.
So he is 10-3 in one score games over three seasons at Cincy, en route to a 26-13 overall record.
The folks that have studied the close game stuff generally come down on the idea it's something that tends to even out.
Having a good QB is often a good factor in. A good coach seems to help to a degree, though the measure of winning close games runs parallel with the measure of judging coaches (games won).
I don't know that it directly correlates simply because football is weird. One person's one mess up in one moment can change a one-score game. And no matter how great a coach, they do not account for or prevent those little mess ups. They aim to corral some, and they aim to assemble enough talent/effective play that they overwhelm and overcome the bounces.
As you pointed out, the coach that went 2-6 went 10-3 a few years later. So that very well might support the idea that it's not so correlated. I do wonder a little if you had a Tressel ball team that needed to win a mess of close games to get to a nice total, then if you were 5-10 percent worse, many of those close wins become losses.
-
How this thread has went 4 pages without any mention of Kliff Kingsbury is beyond me.
Dave Wannestedt was bad at Pitt. Pitt could have, and possibly should have, been the bully on the block in the new BE once Miami and company left. In six seasons there Wannestedt never won the conference and finished ranked once.
Steve Kragthorpe took over for Petrino at Louisville and promptly ran that program straight into the ground.
-
O’Leary went 52-33 at GT and 81-68 at UCF with five years of nine wins or more.
As you said, the issue is guys who get good jobs did well at small jobs. Guys who get very god jobs often did well at decent to good jobs (Rich Rod).
so the best bet is coordinators who jumped in (Weis) or guys with short first stints.
Darrell Hazel is a good one
Chris Ash
Stan Parrish 9-51-1 in six-plus years at K State, Ball State and three interim games at EMU.
Will Muschamp is an interesting one because he’s had two good seasons and another that was close to as good as you could expect in eight, with two bad and three blah. Florida should be better than it was, South Carolina, maybe a little. McElwain was modestly successful On average, though his personality let to a quick ouster when it went bad.
Edit: My fun fact was wrong because the spreadsheet was limited. I regret the error.
OU's three winningest (in order of # of wins) HFCs--Bob Stoops, Barry Switzer, and Bud Wilkinson--were all major-college coordinators (Bud and Barry at OU)--not small-college HCs--before taking over the Sooner program.
Back to the topic, OU's worst HC was John Blake. 12-22 from 1996 through 1998. Worst three-year stretch in program history. Lowest winning % (35%) of anyone except a guy who went 0-1 in 1895.
-
Bobby Williams?
Took over Saban's roster, and promptly ran it into the ground. Rampant drug use, terrible play.
Then when asked if he had lost the team, simply said "I don't know"
-
I think Les Miles deserves an honorable mention in this category. He did less with more than virtually any other coach. I really miss him.
-
I think Les Miles deserves an honorable mention in this category. He did less with more than virtually any other coach. I really miss him.
I have to say there has never been a coach as successful as Miles that I’ve had such little regard for.
-
During the RichRod/Hoke years, Wolverine fans would have crawled across broken glass from Ann Arbor to Baton Rouge in order to have Les Miles as their HC.
-
I always thought it was Harbaugh, or bust.
-
Or?
-
Ya back when Loyd was leaving .wasn't it Mdot or Anon Coward's handle "less Carr more Miles" or sumsuch
-
I think that was when the Wolverines and Harbaugh were feuding over his status as a Michigan Man.
-
Ya back when Loyd was leaving .wasn't it Mdot or Anon Coward's handle "less Carr more Miles" or sumsuch
I meant "or" as opposed to "and"?
-
What are the most famous 'bad' coaches ever? Along the lines of Lane Kiffin, from the perspective of a Tennessee fan.
The more commonly known, the better.
It's a REALLY hard question... Most terrible coaches don't ever have enough notoriety to be counted. Kiffin wasn't even a terrible coach, from the perspective of a Tennessee fan. He's hated because he left--and how he left--not because he was a terrible coach.
I'd nominate Darrell Hazell, of course.
- Was never a head coach prior to his Kent State job. Assistant under Tressel at OSU.
- At Kent State (historically bad team), he had one middling year and then one really amazing year.
- He got the Purdue job, didn't bring his coordinators from Kent State, and proceeded to be the historically worst Purdue coach in our history. That's not hyperbole--he was TERRIBLE.
- He did so in several ways. Poor recruiting. Poor hiring (John Shoop?!?! as your OC). Poor player development. Allowing Shoop to create an overly-complex offense that the team couldn't execute because the playbook was too big for college players. Shoehorning a pro-style offensive scheme into a school where the talent wouldn't support it.
After Purdue, he [rightly] got kicked down several notches, going from college head coach to position coach (WR) in the NFL. After just two years of that, and at only 54 years of age, he retired from coaching.
As a man, I respect Darrell Hazell. He seems like a really stand-up guy. As a coach, he not only failed the Purdue program as a coach but left a smoking crater that Jeff Brohm has spent the last 3 years trying to dig out of. Hazell was so bad that with a <.500 record, Jeff Brohm is already looking like a miracle worker just to make the team mediocre.
-
How this thread has went 4 pages without any mention of Kliff Kingsbury is beyond me.
Dave Wannestedt was bad at Pitt. Pitt could have, and possibly should have, been the bully on the block in the new BE once Miami and company left. In six seasons there Wannestedt never won the conference and finished ranked once.
Steve Kragthorpe took over for Petrino at Louisville and promptly ran that program straight into the ground.
Kingsbury always struck me as deeply mediocre. All offense, no defense, middling records everywhere. I get the Mahomes logic, but man they fielded some sieves.
Wannestedt is intersting. He has the best winning percentage at the school in the past three decades. He basically had three years of build off, three decent years in the bad Big East and then was gone. I don't know he was good, but Pitt has three seasons of 9-4 or better since 1982, and he had two of them. I think Pitt is just Pitt.
Kragthorpe is a good one. He was relatively successful at Tulsa, but not overly so. By assumption is Bobby never leaves the cupboard that full, but Krags certianly didn't do much.
-
OU's three winningest (in order of # of wins) HFCs--Bob Stoops, Barry Switzer, and Bud Wilkinson--were all major-college coordinators (Bud and Barry at OU)--not small-college HCs--before taking over the Sooner program.
Back to the topic, OU's worst HC was John Blake. 12-22 from 1996 through 1998. Worst three-year stretch in program history. Lowest winning % (35%) of anyone except a guy who went 0-1 in 1895.
This isn't to say that hiring a coordinator is bad, but when you're looking at really bad head coaches, coordinators who get big jobs tend and are bad don't have the backing of having been good HCs at any point. Now some were not very good HCs before they got the good jobs (Hazel, in some senses Hoke), but it tends to cut into the bad HC resume.
(One early job story I think is fascinating is Urban Meyer's BG tenure, as it was kinda less glorious than it gets treated now)
-
Kingsbury always struck me as deeply mediocre. All offense, no defense, middling records everywhere. I get the Mahomes logic, but man they fielded some sieves.
I could be very happy being mediocre
(https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/MTcyMTM3Mjg2OTI4OTY2ODIx/ewu_gzbu8aam1qa.jpg)
-
That guy that replaced Glen Mason at Minnesota was hilariously bad. He was like a TE coach in the NFL, when they hired him.
He lost at least one game to a team in each of the surrounding states, including both of the Dakotas
-
Wannestedt is intersting. He has the best winning percentage at the school in the past three decades. He basically had three years of build off, three decent years in the bad Big East and then was gone. I don't know he was good, but Pitt has three seasons of 9-4 or better since 1982, and he had two of them. I think Pitt is just Pitt.
It's similar with Miss State.....on the SEC board, we were talking about each program's best HC or most wins or whatever, and MSU's is Jackie Sherrill.
Sherrill peaked with his early-80s Pitt teams, but another poster was surprised that his tenure in Starkville warranted an all-time list of anything...but hey, he does, because......it's Mississippi State. There's a ceiling.
And I think I agree, similar to ND perhaps, that Pitt has a ceiling and it's lower than it was, going on 40 years ago. I slide ND in there, because while they've had a couple of undefeated regular seasons in the past decade, those teams have shown they're not on the same level as the big boys.
-
Could someone older than me recall the moving parts of Johnny Majors leaving Pitt, where he won a NC in '76, to go to Tennessee and how Sherrill fielded powerhouse teams at Pitt from 80-82?
I'm just too young to really know.
-
Wannstedt was the ultimate "if you take away all of their TDs, FGs and those two punts that they blocked, we totally could have won that game" guy.
-
Could someone older than me recall the moving parts of Johnny Majors leaving Pitt, where he won a NC in '76, to go to Tennessee and how Sherrill fielded powerhouse teams at Pitt from 80-82?
I'm just too young to really know.
Majors simply put a wall around Western PA, when that was probably the most fertile recruiting ground in the country. Wan't his first class (headlined by Tony Dorsett) made up of liek 70 guys, back in the pre-scholarship limits. He left to go "home" to Tennessee.
Sherrill, sort of just kept the ball rolling, and one of those Western PA kids that came through at the time was Dan Marino. Texas A&M paid him an obscene amount of money, I believe making him the highest paid coach in the nation, after Bo Schembechler turned down a similar offer, to stay in Ann Arbor.
The flip side to how successful Majors and Sherrill were simply by locking down Western PA, is that the school has spent 40 years since trying to chase success through that method. The problem is that there simply isn't the talent in the area to fill a national title contender anymore, and they struggle to even beat out OSU, PSU and ND for enough kids in the area.
-
Ah, ignoring the mass migration to the sun belt....that'll do it.
That's interesting about A&M....I hadn't know they had thrown big money to lure away a HC from a legit program, like they did with Jimbo Fisher. Thanks for that.
-
Also interesting that Pitt went after Sherrill, their former DC for 3 years, despite his leaving to be HC at Washington State for a year and stinking (3-8).
-
Morton has some staying power in Wisconsin. People talk about him like OSU fans talk about Cooper, with that eye-rolling distain. Say "Veer" around older UW fans, they bitch about Don Morton. Say Don Morton "The stupid veer."
Did anybody--other than Bill Yeoman, the guy who invented it-- ever do much with the veer?
OU installed it in spring 1970 replacing (I think) the Split-T that Bud Wilkinson had learned from Don Faurot. Started the season 2-1, with unimpressive wins over SMU and Wisconsin and a loss to Oregon State. The offense seemed like not much of an improvement. Next opponent up was Open Date, then Texas. OC Barry Switzer convinced HC Chuck Fairbanks to install the wishbone. So it was done. Despite losing 41-9 at Texas, the Fairbanks and Switzer thought that the wishbone looked to have more potential than the veer. And the rest is history.
Anywho, I pulled up lists of coaching records and scanned people with terrible records for names I knew or people who seemed interesting. A lot of assistants who bombed out.
David Beaty
Norm Chow
Tom Cable
Jim Caldwell (belied by NFL success)
Mike DeBord
Bob Diaco
Jon Embree
Ron English
Turner Gill
Vic Koenning
Dave Kragthorpe
Mike Locksley
Chuck Long
Not yet, but eventually Scot Loeffler
Carl Pelini
Paul Petrino
Ted Roof
Greg Robinson
Kevin Steele
Lou Saban
Buddy Teevens
Don Treadwell
Everett Withers
Jim Wacker
Jennings Whitworth (went 22-27 at OkSU, got Bama, went 4-24-2, replaced by Bear)
Do you mean Steve Kragthorpe?
If so, as HC, he turned Tulsa around in a great way before going to Louisville and falling flat. I'm still a bit mystified by the whole thing.
-
Imagine how HE feels, lol.
-
Also interesting that Pitt went after Sherrill, their former DC for 3 years, despite his leaving to be HC at Washington State for a year and stinking (3-8).
It's Wazzou. The only coaches who have ever won there were Mikes Price and Leach, and each of them had multiple three win seasons along the way.
Price went 3-8 thrice, and 3-9 once. Leach went 3-9 twice.
-
Moeller High School[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gerry_Faust&action=edit§ion=2&editintro=Template:BLP_editintro)]
Faust had a highly successful run at Moeller High School (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moeller_High_School) in Cincinnati, Ohio (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cincinnati,_Ohio) from 1962 to 1980, where he built the program from scratch.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust#cite_note-und.com-2) The Crusaders under Faust had a 178–23–2 record and included seven unbeaten seasons, four national prep titles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_School_Football_National_Championship), and five Ohio state titles in his last six seasons.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust#cite_note-LAT112408-3) One of Faust's linebackers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linebacker) at Moeller was John Boehner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boehner), who later became a United States Congressman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Congress) and the 61st Speaker of the United States House of Representatives (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaker_of_the_United_States_House_of_Representatives).[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust#cite_note-4)
Faust was inducted into the National Federation of State High School Associations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Federation_of_State_High_School_Associations) Hall of Fame in 2004.[5]
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust#cite_note-5)https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerry_Faust)
I saw Army beat Gerry Faust's Akron Zips in Michie Stadium.
The Peter Principle kicked in whenever he tried coaching at a level higher than high school
-
The worst coach at UGA in my lifetime was of course Ray Goff, who was a pretty good QB back in the day. I am pretty sure he put in the effort and time but lacked whatever it is that makes for a good coach, which is a thing we could discuss all day.
Kirby is a very good recruiter apparently, or has folks working for him who are good. I have a sense the assistant coaches are really important in making the HC look good, or bad. When Richt had good assistants, he looked pretty decent.
I was not a fan of Grantham.
Maybe Goff needed a bagman with a bigger bag.
-
That guy that replaced Glen Mason at Minnesota was hilariously bad. He was like a TE coach in the NFL, when they hired him.
He lost at least one game to a team in each of the surrounding states, including both of the Dakotas
That's a solid one. He had two horrible seasons. Two OK ones in between. Created some good false hope.
-
Bill Callahan head coaching
2002 Raiders 11-5
2003 Raiders 4-12
2004 Huskers 5-6
2005 Huskers 8-4
2006 Huskers 9-5
2007 Huskers 5-7
2019 Redskins 3-8
And he was shocked that the fans were "throwing fruit" in Norman. "Hillibillies" he called us!
Maybe a lack of people skills was his problem. I wonder if he suffers from Asperger's syndrome.
-
I meant "or" as opposed to "and"?
That was very funny as a (seeming) response to Badge's point about "Harbaugh or bust."
-
Did anybody--other than Bill Yeoman, the guy who invented it-- ever do much with the veer?
OU installed it in spring 1970 replacing (I think) the Split-T that Bud Wilkinson had learned from Don Faurot. Started the season 2-1, with unimpressive wins over SMU and Wisconsin and a loss to Oregon State. The offense seemed like not much of an improvement. Next opponent up was Open Date, then Texas. OC Barry Switzer convinced HC Chuck Fairbanks to install the wishbone. So it was done. Despite losing 41-9 at Texas, the Fairbanks and Switzer thought that the wishbone looked to have more potential than the veer. And the rest is history.Do you mean Steve Kragthorpe?
If so, as HC, he turned Tulsa around in a great way before going to Louisville and falling flat. I'm still a bit mystified by the whole thing.
To the first part: The Veer isn't exactly a purely defined offense. A lot of base option plays are "veer" plays, so the wishbone and most other option stuff uses a lot of veer plays. So no one else of note ran a "veer" offense, but plenty of people borrowed most of the veer concepts in stuff that were called something else.
Dave is Steve's dad. He won a national title in the middle of a 21-14 three-year run at Idaho State. He left that to be Utah State's AD, then went 17-48-2 at Oregon State. He topped out at 4-6-1 or 4-7-1.
I looked back at those Tulsa teams. He turned at bad program to decent. His Louisville case is bad for those who push consistent small school coaches that overcame rather than having one big year. Tulsa was good for a while after, though.
-
Kingsbury always struck me as deeply mediocre. All offense, no defense, middling records everywhere. I get the Mahomes logic, but man they fielded some sieves.
Too busy admiring himself, I suspect.
Wannestedt is intersting. He has the best winning percentage at the school in the past three decades. He basically had three years of build off, three decent years in the bad Big East and then was gone. I don't know he was good, but Pitt has three seasons of 9-4 or better since 1982, and he had two of them. I think Pitt is just Pitt.
Kragthorpe is a good one. He was relatively successful at Tulsa, but not overly so. By assumption is Bobby never leaves the cupboard that full, but Krags certianly didn't do much.
Kragthorpe inherited a Tulsa program that had gone 7-28 in the previous three seasons. He had three winning seasons out of four and went to three bowls. That was a turnaround.
I was teaching at a school down the street from the University of Tulsa. Our football team went and got its team photo in TU's stadium. Football practice was going on. Our football coaches were very impressed with the organization and lack of wasted time.
As I posted elsewhere, I didn't understand his total failure at Louisville.
-
About "fit." Howard Schnellenberger at Oklahoma is a classic example of its lack.
Schnelly certainly knew how to coach. He was successful at Louisville and Miami. But I think he thought he was running the Howard Schellenberger Show rather than the University of Oklahoma football program in Norman. He went 4-1 (38-17 loss to Colorado) to start the season, tied Texas 24-24, then chalked up a 1-4 record on the backside of the season. 1995 it was.
And then he was gone.
Then we got John Blake, our worst ever. But nobody wished that Schnelly were back.