CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on June 28, 2020, 12:30:02 AM
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I'm not wanting to make this a big statistical thread like I have in the past. So I'll just put who I'm thinking of for all-decade teams for Whoa Nellie and you guys could maybe just comment?
If the stats are close enough, I'm erring towards star-power/notoriety. These need to be known names for football fans.
QBs (3 QB seasons per decade):
1970s: 1979 Art Schlichter, 1977 Mark Hermann, 1975 Tony Dungy
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1980s: 1980 Mark Hermann, 1984 Chuck Long, 1985 Jim Harbaugh
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1990s: 1994 Kerry Collins, 1991 Elvis Grbac, 1995 Bobby Hoying
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2000s: 2006 Troy Smith, 2001 Jeff Smoker, 2002 Brad Banks
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2010s: 2011 Russell Wilson, 2019 Justin Fields, 2018 Dwayne Haskins
**my biggest pause here is excluding Chuck Hartlieb, who had the highest single-season pass rating of the decade. But he's not well known, and probably suffers from being the guy after Chuck Long.
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all-decade RBs
1970s: 1974 Archie Griffin, 1976 Rob Lytle, 1972 Otis Armstrong, 1971 Eric Allen
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1980s: 1989 Anthony Thompson, 1985 Lorenzo White, 1984 Keith Byars, 1987 Jamie Morris
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1990s: 1996 Ron Dayne, 1991 Vaughn Dunbar, 1995 Eddie George, 1994 Ki-Jana Carter
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2000s: 2000 Damien Anderson, 2002 Larry Johnson, 2008 Shonn Greene, 2007 Rashard Mendenhall
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2010s: 2014 Melvin Gordon, 2018 Jonathan Taylor, 2015 Ezekiel Elliott, 2011 Montee Ball
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All-decade WRs.....there's 6 pass-catchers per team in the game, and I'm saving 1 slot for a RB and 1 for a TE, so these are 4 WR per team:
1970s: 1978 Kirk Gibson, 1977 Reggie Arnold, 1975 Scott Yelvington, 1974 Trent Smock
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1980s: 1984 David Williams, 1986 Cris Carter, 1980 Anthony Carter, 1988 Andre Rison
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1990s: 1991 Desmond Howard, 1998 David Boston, 1995 Terry Glenn, 1996 D'Wayne Bates
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2000s: 2001 Lee Evans, 2001 Charles Rogers, 2004 Braylon Edwards, 2002 John Standeford
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2010s: 2011 Marvin McNutt, 2013 Allen Robinson, 2015 Aaron Burbridge, 2018 Rondale Moore
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Pass-rushers will be gradual, as there's no one source going back very far. I'll add to the same post here as I track them down. The growing list will then be edited down, just gathering names for now.
Sacks:
1970s: 1977 Larry Bethea
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1980s: 1985 Mark Messner, 1987 Travis Davis, 1984 Kelly Quinn, 1987 Van Waiters, 1985 Mike Hammerstein, 1988 John Kasherski
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1990s: 1995 Mike Vrabel, 1998 Tom Burke, 1996 Tarek Saleh, 1999 Courtney Brown, 1996 Jared DeVries, 1991 Leroy Smith, 1994 Simeon Rice, 1999 Julian Peterson, 1998 Rosevelt Colvin, 1997 Lamanzer Williams
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2000s: 2006 LaMarr Woodley, 2007 Vernon Gholston, 2002 Michael Haynes, 2003 Shaun Phillips, 2009 Ryan Kerrigan, 2007 Greg Middleton
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2010s: 2019 Chase Young, 2014 Joey Bosa, 2015 Carl Nassib, 2011 Whitney Mercilus
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And there's the question of whether to include players in seasons before their team joined (pre-1993 Penn State, pre-whenever Nebraska, etc).
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IF you are including nebraska... no tommie at QB? I'd take Vince Ferragmo over tony dungy? Crouch won a Heisman.. No Mike Rozier in the 80's at rb? No Irving fryar? No FB's?
and you include trev alberts, but he wasn't the best DE at UNL in the 90's. Neil Smith played at UNL in the 80's as well.
I'm not suggesting UNL should be included, but since you included one that was pre-BIG10 move, there is a lot of misses on your list..
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all-decade RBs
1970s: 1974 Archie Griffin, 1976 Rob Lytle, 1972 Otis Armstrong, 1971 Eric Allen
.
1980s: 1989 Anthony Thompson, 1985 Lorenzo White, 1984 Keith Byars, 1987 Jamie Morris
.
1990s: 1996 Ron Dayne, 1991 Vaughn Dunbar, 1995 Eddie George, 1994 Ki-Jana Carter
.
2000s: 2000 Damien Anderson, 2002 Larry Johnson, 2008 Shonn Greene, 2007 Rashard Mendenhall
.
2010s: 2014 Melvin Gordon, 2018 Jonathan Taylor, 2015 Ezekiel Elliott, 2011 Montee Ball
You forgot Saquon Barkley... :)
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You forgot Saquon Barkley... :)
Which player's season do you take off to put Barkley's (SO, JR?) season on there?
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Which player's season do you take off to put Barkley's (SO, JR?) season on there?
Based on the rest of his post, it doesn't seem like you need to take someone off.
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Based on the rest of his post, it doesn't seem like you need to take someone off.
Yes, RBs are 4 only, so one would need to be removed.
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IF you are including nebraska... no tommie at QB? I'd take Vince Ferragmo over tony dungy? Crouch won a Heisman.. No Mike Rozier in the 80's at rb? No Irving fryar? No FB's?
and you include trev alberts, but he wasn't the best DE at UNL in the 90's. Neil Smith played at UNL in the 80's as well.
I'm not suggesting UNL should be included, but since you included one that was pre-BIG10 move, there is a lot of misses on your list..
Yeah, you're making me think players shouldn't be included before their school was a B10 member.
And for the sacks guys, I'm just reaching. What's posted here is the single largest group of B10 sack leaders on the internet. They're all sprinkled individually by school, and officially only go back to 2005. It's stupid.
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Yes, RBs are 4 only, so one would need to be removed.
I'd probably remove Ball or Gordon
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You'd remove Gordon's 2,500 yard season?
I know people would love Barkley included, and Ball isn't as big a name. I couldn't omit Gordon, he had the 2nd-most yards in a season, ever.
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Just perusing around, some fun facts on Travis Etienne of Clemson:
17 career 100 yard games, he's only had 20+ carries in a game TWICE.
In his 3 career games vs Louisville, he has 443 yards on 28 carries (15.8 yards per carry).
He had fewer than 15 carries in 11 of his 17 career 100-yard games.
To go along with that, of his 3 career 200-yard games, 2 of them were under 15 carries.
He averages 7.0 yards per carry or better in home, road, and neutral games, in wins and losses.
The only month he averages under 7.3 ypc is January.
His yards per rush vs the RB with the next-most carries for Clemson by year:
2017: +0.9
2018: +2.5
2019: +1.7
He'll be a very interesting case when he's drafted. Low miles, huge numbers, but I don't think there'll be a Saquon Barkley-like "slam dunk" consensus opinion of him for whatever reason.
To be honest, his career is a good argument to downgrade the ACC as a G5-type conference. I mean, that's how far ahead Clemson is from the rest of the pack.
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You'd remove Gordon's 2,500 yard season?
I know people would love Barkley included, and Ball isn't as big a name. I couldn't omit Gordon, he had the 2nd-most yards in a season, ever.
Well...stat wise? Probably not. Would I rather have Barkley or Gordon on my team? Barkley.
Ball's numbers weren't great. It was more a matter of feeding him the ball 356 times in a single season. To put that in perspective, that is almost 10% higher than 2019's leader (328 attempts), and almost 20% higher than 2018's leader (301 attempts).
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I'm a big Gordon fan, but if I was taking a rb.. I'd take Barkley first.
but let's be honest... nobody would be disappointed with Gordon on their team.
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As one RB is going to be a pass-catcher as well, Barkley fits that role well.
It's just a fine line of wanting college-only production vs name recognition vs NFL-caused name recognition for a college-specific medium.
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Well...stat wise? Probably not. Would I rather have Barkley or Gordon on my team? Barkley.
Ball's numbers weren't great. It was more a matter of feeding him the ball 356 times in a single season. To put that in perspective, that is almost 10% higher than 2019's leader (328 attempts), and almost 20% higher than 2018's leader (301 attempts).
You’re looking at the wrong season. OAM listed the 2011 season, when Ball got 307 carries and averaged 6.3 YPC. That season was impressive in its way, but not one you’d pluck as great beyond the sheer workload.
Barkley is a fascinating player. He was a masterful talent and a joy to watch. He was unreal explosive and not very efficient. Some of that can be about the OL. That Ball season was low on explosiveness, but apparently impossibly high on efficiency (I don’t have the good stats for back then). In theory, Barkley should have the effect that Clemson backs have where the RPOs make you lower usage, more productive per play, but Barkley was the less productive than many of those seasons, at least on a per carry basis.
His case is a deeply weird one.
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It may be weird, but I don't think it's all that rare - where the perceived, consensus talent level of the player yields good/not great stats.
It's how we get these legendary players who's names live on forever, but when you do some research, you see other now-anonymous players who were just as productive or more so. But they weren't big AND fast. Their team went 4-7 instead of 10-1.
Barkley was only 'special' because he ran like a 180 lb back at 230 lbs. He had breakaway speed once he got to the 2nd level and he was a good receiver. So maybe what he wasn't great at were skills that are hard to identify, like manuevering through the line for 3 yards instead of 1.
I think of those aspects of a RB as the "Emmitt Smith video game conundrum." He was always productive, but by the attributes each player is broken down into and rated on, they don't add up for him. Not fast. Not a big tackle-breaker like a big guy. But you have to rate him highly....
Guys like Barkley are great, and they'll always get picked first, yet the guys like Emmitt chug along, out-producing them.
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You’re looking at the wrong season. OAM listed the 2011 season, when Ball got 307 carries and averaged 6.3 YPC. That season was impressive in its way, but not one you’d pluck as great beyond the sheer workload.
Barkley is a fascinating player. He was a masterful talent and a joy to watch. He was unreal explosive and not very efficient. Some of that can be about the OL. That Ball season was low on explosiveness, but apparently impossibly high on efficiency (I don’t have the good stats for back then). In theory, Barkley should have the effect that Clemson backs have where the RPOs make you lower usage, more productive per play, but Barkley was the less productive than many of those seasons, at least on a per carry basis.
His case is a deeply weird one.
Remember that Barkley was running behind a pretty terrible O-Line. He was tackled so many times as soon as he got the ball in the backfield... :(
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It may be weird, but I don't think it's all that rare - where the perceived, consensus talent level of the player yields good/not great stats.
It's how we get these legendary players who's names live on forever, but when you do some research, you see other now-anonymous players who were just as productive or more so. But they weren't big AND fast. Their team went 4-7 instead of 10-1.
Barkley was only 'special' because he ran like a 180 lb back at 230 lbs. He had breakaway speed once he got to the 2nd level and he was a good receiver. So maybe what he wasn't great at were skills that are hard to identify, like manuevering through the line for 3 yards instead of 1.
I think of those aspects of a RB as the "Emmitt Smith video game conundrum." He was always productive, but by the attributes each player is broken down into and rated on, they don't add up for him. Not fast. Not a big tackle-breaker like a big guy. But you have to rate him highly....
Guys like Barkley are great, and they'll always get picked first, yet the guys like Emmitt chug along, out-producing them.
What makes Saquon special is his incredible jump cut/change of direction.
Check out this run:
https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/18397202
https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/18397202 (https://www.espn.com/video/clip/_/id/18397202)
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Sack guys in the 70s are going to be tough