CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: MikeDeTiger on January 20, 2020, 03:50:45 PM
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Any of you Buckeyes--or others--who like to nerd out on schemes, I have a question for you about Ryan Day/Kevin Wilson and the playoff game against Clemson.
Other than the fact it was a great game, I saw something in it that I had to go back and review more carefully to be sure I wasn't imagining it. I was surprised how much the Bucks kept the TE in to block when it looked like Venables left that open for attack most of the day. Looking for meaningful data on the upcoming LSU/Clemson final, that's what jumped out at me....I thought TE Moss would be the difference maker based on what Clemson was showing and how I thought they might defend LSU. That turned out to be legit, every defensive look gives up something, and while the game log will show just 5 catches and 1 TD for Moss, it can't be overstated how huge his grabs were. Even when he wasn't the target he stopped commitment in the box.
Looked like Ohio State gambled that they needed the TE in to block, but it sure looked like releasing him to draw away some LB and safety help would've made Clemson ease up a bit on the pressure looks, because MAN there were some seams open for the TE if Fields got it to him.
I watched maybe 5, 6 at the most, Ohio State games this year. Is the top TE a good pass catcher, and does Day usually make good use out of that? In the end I was left with the impression OSU could've won that game but didn't stress enough of the field often enough. That's what Clemson appeared ready to give up, and if they adjust for that, Dobbins probably goes off more and a guy like Olave doesn't get bracketed as much.
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https://www.foxsports.com/college-football/video/1654473283897
Good observation MDT. Did wonder that during the game. Buckeyes have several excellent TEs on their roster with great hands, namely Ruckert’s, in vid attached and, Jake Hausman.
They don’t go there often, with only 25 receptions this year, but usually at least 2 targets per game. They most often used the TE in the situation you describ, as seen in video....where they defense is crowding the line and getting pressure.
I think the biggest variable in Ohio State’s lack of performance in that game was Fields lack of mobility—-needed surgery right after the season. Day and Wilson used him masterfully during the season ( right up to his injury v Penn State) to threaten and constrain defenses, which not only opened up lanes for Dobbins, but made Ohio State extremely difficult to stop on 3rd downs.
The irony of that game is that Lawrence got it done running, and Fields had a really good day passing. For those who do follow OSU, many thought Fields was a run first QB when in fact it is the opposite. Despite being a crazy-good runner and scrambler, he does not get “ happy feet” when in fact he should some times, and takes some avoidable sacks. That was his only real weakness. I am actually excited to see what Ryan Day can do with him in year 2, since Day’s QB development has been incredible so far and he has yet to have a QB for more than one season.
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Ah, okay. Sounds like Venables was just prepping according to OSU put on film for him this year then.
Would've been a great constraint to knock Clemson off their game, I think. Those Venables defenses are dangerous. He's as aggressive as a guy like Todd Grantham but not as reckless, and it's a dangerous combo. I think a key way to put units like that in a bind is to be willing to stress whatever the defense is willing to vacate. Ohio State is in a unique position to pull that off because they have outstanding talent literally all over the field.
Winning one on one matchups is great, but ultimately I think you've got to be ready to take what the defense gives, so to speak. I know that's oversimplified.
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Pretty much HB filled you in but keeping the TE in IMO had more to do with Fields bad wheel than scheme.Should have rolled the dice more concerning Ruckert.Be a good question at the presser,congrats to LSU.Thought I heard the Bayou Bengals lost both Coordinators :sign0065:
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Sort of. Steve Ensminger is LSU's OC, not Joe Brady, although the media paints it very differently most people don't remember it. The plays that were brought in definitely had a lot to do with Joe Brady, and he also helped game-planning during the week. The playcalls themselves during games and the actual coordinating were absolutely still Ensminger. Brady will be missed, but I don't think it hails quite the amount of drawback and change that outsiders think.
Brady followed Baylor's Matt Rhule to the Carolina Panthers. DC Aranda took Matt Rhules vacated spot.
So after all the top ten teams played.....it's BAYLOR who finally figured out how to stop LSU :smiley_confused1:
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Oh, and for all the Bucks maybe reading this.....
Thanks for Joe Burreaux.
I thought at the end of last season there were definite signs we were looking at a Top 15, maybe top 10 QB for this season.
I didn't think he'd wind up arguably the GOAT.
Any more transfers y'all would like to give us, it's PORTAL SZN, bay-beeeee!!! Send 'em on down.
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kindly DON'T send them anymore all-world qb's please. or any other all-world position players or coaches for that matter.
thanks,
rest of sec.
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Thanks for Joe Burreaux.
Great story - crazy set of circumstances.Urbz love of JT,a broken thumb and Dwayne Haskins emerging kinda all crossed paths sending Jeaux south
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Oh, and for all the Bucks maybe reading this.....
Thanks for Joe Burreaux.
I thought at the end of last season there were definite signs we were looking at a Top 15, maybe top 10 QB for this season.
I didn't think he'd wind up arguably the GOAT.
Any more transfers y'all would like to give us, it's PORTAL SZN, bay-beeeee!!! Send 'em on down.
I'm very happy for Joe Burrow and was glad to see him that kind of success. He is still loved by the Ohio State faithful and by the team in general. It could not have happened to a nicer person.
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Great story - crazy set of circumstances.Urbz love of JT,a broken thumb and Dwayne Haskins emerging kinda all crossed paths sending Jeaux south
It sure I would include “Urbz” in there.
by Burrows own admission- he was nowhere near ready to supplant JT.
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never read that,not in 2016 he went 22-28 and the media was bringing up competition/rotation because of arm strength.There was a royal up roar after the Clemson whitwashing.Urbz declared after 31-0 that everything was open for competition.Then turn around and handed it right back to JTB and his lobs in the spring.Remember Tim May of the Dispatch had a great article on it
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never read that,not in 2016 he went 22-28 and the media was bringing up competition/rotation because of arm strength.There was a royal up roar after the Clemson whitwashing.Urbz declared after 31-0 that everything was open for competition.Then turn around and handed it right back to JTB and his lobs in the spring.Remember Tim May of the Dispatch had a great article on it
Yeah I can’t remember if I read it or heard him say it in an interview but he said he was nowhere near what he is now. Remember his first year at LSU was pretty ho-hum as well so I don’t think I can blame Meyer we’re thinking JT gave them the best chance to win given at the time he was the Most prolific quarterback in the Big Ten history
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No disrespect but he kept coming back each year also.His prospect on the pro boards never climbed much and he had problems when the competition leveled off.In the 2014 & 2017 Michigan games for instance both games he left either behind or tied and Jones & Haskins respectively pulled out the wins by going deep or spreading defenses out because of arm strength.He simply couldn't go over the top,Urbs could have rotated like he did in FLA. - that was the discussions/disagreements on 11 Warriors/Bucknuts/O-Zone at the time
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No disrespect but he kept coming back each year also.His prospect on the pro boards never climbed much and he had problems when the competition leveled off.In the 2014 & 2017 Michigan games for instance both games he left either behind or tied and Jones & Haskins respectively pulled out the wins by going deep or spreading defenses out because of arm strength.He simply couldn't go over the top,Urbs could have rotated like he did in FLA. - that was the discussions/disagreements on 11 Warriors/Bucknuts/O-Zone at the time
No disrespect taken. Yeah Haskins bail them out with a couple nice passes in the Michigan game. Makes you wonder why urban didn’t put Burrow in because he was available?? As far as Cardale Jones all he did was hand off when he replaced JT in the Michigan game
At that point Haskins was better than Burrow- also evidenced by the full seasons they had in 18.
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To hit on the original question, I'd bet it came down to this.
Clemson was gonna blitz a ton. They were gonna play 1-high, man on the outside, send complex pressures.
Without full-strength Fields, maybe you say we'd like to have the option of one extra pass blocker. That can be a TE or it can be Dobbins. You pick the TE.
Now maybe you say, we can just leave five and rely on Field's field reading to get it done, but you'll open him up to getting drilled and perhaps the payoff of a TE down the seam isn't quite so high. Shoot, Burrow has a stupid quick release and better WRs and he still took like 4-5 sacks and needed to scramble a good bit.
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never read that,not in 2016 he went 22-28 and the media was bringing up competition/rotation because of arm strength.There was a royal up roar after the Clemson whitwashing.Urbz declared after 31-0 that everything was open for competition.Then turn around and handed it right back to JTB and his lobs in the spring.Remember Tim May of the Dispatch had a great article on it
"“My arm strength wasn’t up to par,” Burrow told The Athletic.
Then the concern perpetuated the problem. Burrow became so determined to throw harder, so eager to win over his coach, he threw the ball as hard as he could. Suddenly, his mechanics changed as result. His delivery became long and wide, looking more like a baseball pitcher than a quarterback."
He saw a QB guy before that 2016 season, but his mechanics and such were an ongoing process. Urban also said some rather not nice things to Burrow about his arm in that first season, which might be attempts to motivate, but also might get read as part of the grand obstinance of not playing him.
"Go to Burrow’s 16 months in Baton Rouge. Jimmy Burrow thinks LSU offensive coordinator Steve Ensminger has helped his son greatly, especially with little things like footwork. He also credits LSU offensive analyst Jorge Munoz, a former Louisiana offensive coordinator who specializes in quarterbacks."
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His arm was a hell of alot stronger than Barret's.And he still went 22-28 in '16.They should have rotated him just on that fact and accuracy.He had a higher avg,QB rating and yds per in 2016.Prolly left not wanting to rock the boat.In 2017 is when he hurt his thumb
Burrow played in five games in 2016 as the back-up to Barrett. In nine career appearances, Burrow completed 29 of 39 passes (74.4 pct.) for 287 yards and two touchdowns Burrow was a two-time Academic all-Big Ten Conference honoree and an OSU Scholar-Athlete.
Burrow was selected as Ohio Mr. Football, first-team Associated Press all-state and the Division III co-offensive player of the year after throwing for nearly 4,500 yards with 63 touchdowns and only two interceptions … he threw for over 11,400 yards with 157 touchdowns in his career plus rushed for over 2,000 yards with 27 more TDs … ranked on the ESPN 300 a Top 25 quarterback prospect by Scout and Rivals
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“I wanted to go to Nebraska but they told me I wasn’t good enough,” Burrow said in an interview.
UH boy that hurt,As for Nebraska, they continued going with Tommy Armstrong in 2015 and 2016, Tanner Lee in 2017, and have now hitched their wagon to Adrian Martinez.
https://youtu.be/Xo52kUeslU0?t=1 - spring game before the broken thumb
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His arm was a hell of alot stronger than Barret's.And he still went 22-28 in '16.They should have rotated him just on that fact and accuracy.He had a higher avg,QB rating and yds per in 2016.Prolly left not wanting to rock the boat.In 2017 is when he hurt his thumb
Burrow played in five games in 2016 as the back-up to Barrett. In nine career appearances, Burrow completed 29 of 39 passes (74.4 pct.) for 287 yards and two touchdowns Burrow was a two-time Academic all-Big Ten Conference honoree and an OSU Scholar-Athlete.
Burrow was selected as Ohio Mr. Football, first-team Associated Press all-state and the Division III co-offensive player of the year after throwing for nearly 4,500 yards with 63 touchdowns and only two interceptions … he threw for over 11,400 yards with 157 touchdowns in his career plus rushed for over 2,000 yards with 27 more TDs … ranked on the ESPN 300 a Top 25 quarterback prospect by Scout and Rivals
There are many good arguments for why Burrow could've started, why things got weird, etc. But this 22-28 and his HS stats are just kinda overwrought at a point.
You're right, he put up numbers against teams against which Barrett could lead OSU to leads of 56-10, 51-0, 55-3, 48-3 (the last one the QB change was made as OSU got inside the Maryland 10 before going up 55-3). In those games, Barrett's rating in those games, 219.7, 180, 167.3, 169.8. The yards per play ranking for those defenses: 103rd, 111th, 55th, 64th.
There are many nice things to say about Burrow. The 28 passes as a garbage time all-star is just not a thing to cling to.
And pointing out he threw for fewer yards than a kid who went to Old Dominican and 7,000 fewer yards than Maty Mauk is likewise a perfectly nice stat that isn't super indicative.
There's a good conversation to have. I'd honestly love to see some reporter talk to old OSU guys about those practices, what they remember, etc. But reminding me he could do well against teams JT could put up 50 on in three quarters and that he started four years against rural Ohio farm kids doesn't do a ton.
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There are many good arguments for why Burrow could've started, why things got weird, etc. But this 22-28 and his HS stats are just kinda overwrought at a point.
You're right, he put up numbers against teams against which Barrett could lead OSU to leads of 56-10, 51-0, 55-3, 48-3 (the last one the QB change was made as OSU got inside the Maryland 10 before going up 55-3). In those games, Barrett's rating in those games, 219.7, 180, 167.3, 169.8. The yards per play ranking for those defenses: 103rd, 111th, 55th, 64th.
There are many nice things to say about Burrow. The 28 passes as a garbage time all-star is just not a thing to cling to.
And pointing out he threw for fewer yards than a kid who went to Old Dominican and 7,000 fewer yards than Maty Mauk is likewise a perfectly nice stat that isn't super indicative.
There's a good conversation to have. I'd honestly love to see some reporter talk to old OSU guys about those practices, what they remember, etc. But reminding me he could do well against teams JT could put up 50 on in three quarters and that he started four years against rural Ohio farm kids doesn't do a ton.
This.
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To hit on the original question, I'd bet it came down to this.
Clemson was gonna blitz a ton. They were gonna play 1-high, man on the outside, send complex pressures.
Without full-strength Fields, maybe you say we'd like to have the option of one extra pass blocker. That can be a TE or it can be Dobbins. You pick the TE.
Now maybe you say, we can just leave five and rely on Field's field reading to get it done, but you'll open him up to getting drilled and perhaps the payoff of a TE down the seam isn't quite so high. Shoot, Burrow has a stupid quick release and better WRs and he still took like 4-5 sacks and needed to scramble a good bit.
That makes some sense. That's kind of the deal with an offense like that, though, and really Ohio State has been doing it much longer than LSU. I remember the 2006 version with Troy Smith sending 5 wide a fair amount. You'll take some more sacks with just a 5 man protection, but I figure it's built into the game plan as it seemed to be for us this year.
We definitely got him hit and sacked more than a typical LSU team, but the idea is when your guy can operate it you can both make up for it to offset it in yards and then also hopefully you can make them back off the pressure looks once you get burned a time or two.
That's just fodder for offseason. Like I say, I watched 4-5 Ohio State games this year, so depending on what the staff evaluates as Fields' real strengths and weaknesses will have a lot to do with that. I'm just thinking in a vacuum, and games don't happen in a vacuum. It's just something I noticed, it looked like the TE releasing could've done some serious damage to Clemson on the day.
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UH boy that hurt,As for Nebraska, they continued going with Tommy Armstrong in 2015 and 2016, Tanner Lee in 2017, and have now hitched their wagon to Adrian Martinez.
https://youtu.be/Xo52kUeslU0?t=1 - spring game before the broken thumb
Joe didn't want to go to Nebraska out of high school. He was looking for places to transfer when Frost said "he wasn't good enough". doubt those were Frost's words.
Same argument then as to why he wasn't starting at tOSU. Yes, Frost hitched his wagon the Martinez, I don't have a problem with that decision.
Adrian didn't have a great soph season, but let's wait and see how he finishes his career.
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But reminding me he could do well against teams JT could put up 50 on in three quarters and that he started four years against rural Ohio farm kids doesn't do a ton.
Getting cut 11 times in the League doesn't do a ton either.It was mostly garbage time when JT put up gaudy numbers vs vastly overmatched opponents.Two kids named Haskins/Burrow should have seen more snaps or rotated.He beat the brakes of the bums,that others on the roster would not have a problem with.We've had this discussion and I'm not chewing my cud twice.The guys around JT many are playing on Sundays except for him.Had i known this discussion would come up I would have invited you to the Shoe in 2016 .JT was notorious for blowing up in big games 15-32 vs Michigan '16 with a whole 124 yd and 1 pk(as a 4th yr JR)Clemson '16/MSU in'15/Iowa '17/losing vs M in'17 when he went out that Haskins rescued(Burrow was hurt).Nice kid and all that but i agree with the proletariat on the message boards at the time.Reporters,writers,bloggers pointed this out it wasn't just an anomily I picked up on.
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Getting cut 11 times in the League doesn't do a ton either.It was mostly garbage time when JT put up gaudy numbers vs vastly overmatched opponents.Two kids named Haskins/Burrow should have seen more snaps or rotated.He beat the brakes of the bums,that others on the roster would not have a problem with.We've had this discussion and I'm not chewing my cud twice.The guys around JT many are playing on Sundays except for him.Had i known this discussion would come up I would have invited you to the Shoe in 2016 .JT was notorious for blowing up in big games 15-32 vs Michigan '16 with a whole 124 yd and 1 pk(as a 4th yr JR)Clemson '16/MSU in'15/Iowa '17/losing vs M in'17 when he went out that Haskins rescued(Burrow was hurt).Nice kid and all that but i agree with the proletariat on the message boards at the time.Reporters,writers,bloggers pointed this out it wasn't just an anomily I picked up on.
As long as we’re talking about the time the guy who played didn’t throw well against the No. 3 team in the country and later an eventual national champ and not about garbage time against teams Barrett could carve up and mollywhopping kids from small high schools, I’ll take it.
(On another random note your post reminded me of, games like the Iowa game aren’t really “Big Games.” It was a crazy upset, but if your team needs to lose for it to be a big game, it feels like our definitions need work. Especially since maybe his best game of the season happened against the No. 2 team in the land like a week before that)
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Barret had much inflated numbers against overmatched opponents.Didn't translate against staunch opponents or the big boy league.It's an upset perhaps but the leader of the team on the 1st play of the game throws a pick 6.and I believe it was 3 of his 4 picks in the 1st half.He did this in big games.I could put you on a T-Ball team and you'd have impressive stats.The noose seem to tighten everytime he went up in class,however.He had some great games that he would follow up with clinkers.Joe's broken thumb he couldn't work out in real progessions for awhile that may have been the comment you were referring to.In the words of Forrest Gump - that's all I have to say about that
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This is what I was talking about a couple months back. It.....never......ends. Kobayashi couldn't down the shit sandwich OSU fans pile on top of JT Barrett.
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Oops, I did it again....:57:
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This is what I was talking about a couple months back. It.....never......ends. Kobayashi couldn't down the shit sandwich OSU fans pile on top of JT Barrett.
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Oops, I did it again....:57:
Amen.
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This is what I was talking about a couple months back. It.....never......ends. Kobayashi couldn't down the shit sandwich OSU fans pile on top of JT Barrett.
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Oops, I did it again....:57:
And rimshots like you would've had Joe ride it out on the pines because you follow the program so closely.Never piled on,simply suggested(at the time) at the very least two future 1st rounders should have rotated in passing downs.And if you were isightful like you think fans were questioning Urban.But CWS is right you're the bad comedian who blames the crowd when they don't Laugh.I suppose in your land of make believe Saban was out of line when he sat Hurts for Tua.Stick to your fantasy poles,you're better at them