CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => SEC => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on December 11, 2019, 03:53:05 AM
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HCs counted by predominant school - SEC HCs:
1. Bear Bryant - Alabama
2. Nick Saban - Alabama
3. Bobby Dodd - GA Tech
4. Vince Dooley - Georgia
5. Steve Spurrier - Florida
6. Robert Neyland - Tennessee
7. Johnny Vaught - Ole Miss
8. Urban Meyer - Florida
9. Johnny Majors - Tennessee
10. Shug Jordan - Auburn
11. Frank Thomas - Alabama
12. Phil Fulmer - Tennessee
13. Charlie McClendon - LSU
14. Dan McGugin - Vanderbilt (sort of pre-SEC, but let's represent them)
15. Wally Butts - Georgia
16. Jackie Sherrill - Miss State
17. Pat Dye - Auburn
18. Gene Stallings - Alabama
19. Mike Donahue - Auburn (pre-SEC)
20. Mark Richt - Georgia
21. Les Miles - LSU
Personally, I think Dooley is too high. He was a HC for a long time, but only had 3-4 great seasons. Neyland is underrated.
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What do you think of as a great season?
Top five finish in the polls? Top ten?
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My guess is that list corresponds fairly closely to "number of wins", not really coaching aptitude, though the two would be somewhat correlated.
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What do you think of as a great season?
Top five finish in the polls? Top ten?
With Dooley, isn't it basically 2 measures: with Herschel and without Herschel? Anyone could have just run the ball with Walker 35 times per game. That's what he did, and it worked. But what were Dooley's 3 best seasons w/o HW? The year immediately after he left early, sure, but what else?
I just think his peaks had a lot of average in between - more so than other elite HCs.
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1966. 1968. 1971. 1976 ... Pretty good years. 1983 was without HW.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/vince-dooley-1.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/vince-dooley-1.html)
Dooley once said his 1969 team was loaded but suffered key injuries and only finished 5-5-1, after starting the year 5-1.
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The main thing that helps Dooley's perception is the state of the program he inherited. Of course, 20 years later that was not a factor at all, but perception by then was that he was a very good HC (among fans anyway). Richt had better success outside the one NC, but was viewed as something of a failure because of not meeting expectations. Smart MIGHT get that same label, already has with some.
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Am I wrong in thinking that Neyland was almost a 1b to Bryant's 1a status as all-time SEC HCs? I know he mentored him a bit or inspired him or whatever, and maybe the student surpassed the teacher, but how would Neyland be 6th? Sure, Saban may have passed them both, but I don't understand having 5 guys ahead of Neyland.
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Neyland suffers, I think, because of the time factor. Many don't view football of 1938 as being "the same" as it is today, so when Michigan beats OSU 13 times out of 14 in 1901, OSu fans view it askance, it doesn't count.
It's perception and opinion anyway, your's is as or more valid than "theirs".
I think we should "celebrate" the great coaches with things other than attempted rankings, they can each be exceptional in their own right and time, without trying to compare some 1938 coach with a 2010 coach with an almost entirely different "playing field".
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I also think "the best coach" could be some dude who went to BF State and did a superb job with what he had, but never got a bite at the Bigger Apples.
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What would some of the earlier coaches like Bear Bryant do in the modern era with an 85 scholarship limit?
I mean, Bryant back in the day was stockpiling players and keeping them on the bench to keep them away from the competition. He could have run his 4th team out there and still competed at the same level. Not true in today's landscape.
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Dooley's teams won 10 games in four seasons without HW and 9 games four other times, out of 22 years (wo #34). Five major bowl games played, 2-3 record.
That isn't earth shattering of course, but it's pretty solid.
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It sure is.
I was looking at Dooley and Spurrier...I can't believe Spurrier coached 25+ years and Dooley 25. His career was chopped up starting at Duke, then his time at Florida, and then he spent nearly as long at South Carolina.
They've got about the same number of years, about the same overall win%, and 1 NC each. However, I'd put Spurrier ahead, because he won at 2 places that never win - and his time there brought down his overall win%. Imagine Spurrier's record if he spent 25 years in Gainesville.
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Spurrier is the best "game day coach" I've ever seen. Recruiting was not his strength, though his presence attracted recruits. He did more with less than anyone I have seen. When at UF, he did more with more.
Dooley was a solid coach in my view who took over a moribund program and brought it back to significance, even if we ignore 1980-1982.
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I think most all of the correct names are there. But I'm sure we'd all argue over the ordering (so many ways to measure greatness and so many things to consider like, resources v results, do we include what they did pre/outside the SEC? etc.).
No way Dooley is anything other than one of the best, but I wouldn't put him top 5. I do agree that Neyland might be the most underrated of the bunch.
1. Bryant
2. Spurrier
3. Saban
4. Neyland
5. Dodd
6. Vaught
7. Jordan
8. Thomas
9. Dooley
10. Meyer
And regardless of the time frame or qualifications, I have to give John Heisman an honorable mention.
.02
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Looks good to me.
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I'd start with
1. Saban
2. Bryant
3. Neyland
..and go from there.
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Does it really matter who is first or third or second? We could probably group them as "elite" and "very good" etc, instead of bothering with 1,2,3, IMHO, but I view all these lists as irrelevant click bait anyway.
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No, none of this matters, but it's just for fun. You know, some meaningless silliness.
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Yeah, I like to enjoy the elite performers without arguing about who is #2 or #4, whatever. Tennessee gave up zero points in the regular season in 1938, I think, and the year before they gave up like 6 or something. UGA went 11-0 in 1946 and ended up ranked third behind two teams that had ties. I claim it.
Ha.
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What would some of the earlier coaches like Bear Bryant do in the modern era with an 85 scholarship limit?
I mean, Bryant back in the day was stockpiling players and keeping them on the bench to keep them away from the competition. He could have run his 4th team out there and still competed at the same level. Not true in today's landscape.
Coach Bryant never coached in the SEC (not even at Kentucky) without scholarship limits. The limits were the same for him as for all other SEC coaches. What you are saying is totally false.
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Helmet programs back then did what helmet programs do now - get the best players and have depth with some more 'best' players. But back then, they could have 8 instead of 4. 5 instead of 2. And so on.
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Wallace Wade would be in my Top 20 somewhere. Won three NCs in seven years. His undefeated 1925 team put Southern football on the map by winning the 1926 Rose bowl.
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After those top 3, it opens up a bit.
Spurrier is interesting. He gets a lot of credit for opening up the conference to modern offensive football. Lauded as a great game day HC. His 33 wins in a 3-year stretch at USCe might be his most impressive feat.
His detractors were mostly jealous. But just talking results, I've even heard people citing he ONLY won 1 NC. If that's a mark against a guy, I'll take it.
In his 12 years, Florida mattered (aka was in the NC hunt in late November) in 10 of those years.
Personally, I think his trump card isn't the winning at Duke or Carolina, but he came into Florida - who had zero official SEC championships - and IMMEDIATELY started winning.
First SEC game: W at Alabama
First SEC season: best conference record (probation)
No SEC titles? How about 6 in 7 years? (including the "1st in the SEC" - 1990)
300 pass attempts usually leads the league? And always by bad teams playing catch-up?
No longer - let's throw it 400 times...and WIN!
A 1:1 TD to INT ratio is decent? Let's go 2:1. Let's go 3:1.
20 TD passes will lead the league? How about 25? 30? 35!
He began an renaissance.
Now, as a Gator myself, I know a few things that went in his favor. He lucked into a salty defense when he came to Florida. Legit DTs, LBs, and Ss. Also, his disdain for recruiting wouldn't have worked elsewhere. Sure, he could out X-and-O you, but once he was facing a more daunting schedule in the SEC, he was fortunate to be in the most fertile state for recruits. It was only later in his career that he reluctantly made recruiting any kind of priority. Things wouldn't have been so immediate or smooth without that defense that was already in place or the talent he couldn't help but acquire.
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As you know, I think very highly of SOS. I even think he's funny. But of course I saw him out coach opponents like Mark Richt, so perhaps the bar isn't that high.
The Dawgs didn't have the horses, or the coaches, in the 90s.
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James Wallace Butts Jr. (February 7, 1905 – December 17, 1973) was an American football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football) player, coach, and college athletics administrator. He served as the head coach at the University of Georgia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Georgia) from 1939 to 1960, compiling a record of 140–86–9. His Georgia Bulldogs football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Bulldogs_football) teams won a national championships (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_football_national_championships_in_NCAA_Division_I_FBS) in 1942 and four Southeastern Conference (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Conference) titles (1942, 1946, 1948, 1959).
His 1946 team was undefeated also. He's 15th on the list, probably about right. That's 21 years and four conference titles, which is pretty decent.
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Who is the best HC they omitted? Hmmmm ....
Dan Mullen? Might you include him?
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https://bleacherreport.com/articles/47680-the-10-greatest-sec-coaches-of-all-time-part-one (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/47680-the-10-greatest-sec-coaches-of-all-time-part-one)
This is an "interesting" list, and includes Frank Broyles as honorable mention, and has Saban at tenth, but it's from 2008.
8. Frank Thomas, Alabama (1931-1946): 115-24-7 (.812 pct), four SEC titles
Thomas was the coach who brought Alabama into the SEC when it formed in 1933. In 1931 he accepted the job at Alabama, where he established himself as one of the top coaches in the nation. He brought the Crimson Tide to prominence with bowl wins in the Rose, Orange, and Sugar. He became the coach and mentor for Paul "Bear" Bryant.
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Who is the best HC they omitted? Hmmmm ....
Dan Mullen? Might you include him?
Several won more SEC Championships than some listed. Most notable of which is Bill Alexander of Georgia Tech who won three.
Paul Bryant (14) Kentucky (1) 1950; Alabama (13) 1961-64- 65-66-71-72-73-74-75-77-78-79-81
Nick Saban (8) LSU 2001-03; Alabama 2009-12-14-15-16-18
Johnny Vaught (6) Ole Miss 1947-54-55-60-62-63
Vince Dooley (6) Georgia 1966-68-76-80-81-82
Steve Spurrier (6) Florida 1991-93-94-95-96-2000
Bob Neyland (5) Tennessee 1938-39-40-46-51
Frank Thomas (4) Alabama 1933-34-37-45
Wally Butts (4) Georgia 1942-46-48-59
Pat Dye (4) Auburn 1983-87-88-89
Bill Alexander (3) Georgia Tech 1939-43-44
Johnny Majors (3) Tennessee 1985-89-90
Les Miles (2) LSU 2007-11
Phillip Fulmer (2) Tennessee 1997-98
Urban Meyer (2) Florida 2006-08
Bernie Moore (2) LSU 1935-36
Bobby Dodd (2) Georgia Tech 1951-52
Paul Dietzel (2) LSU 1958-61
Doug Dickey (2) Tennessee 1967-69
Mark Richt (2) Georgia 2002-05
Ted Cox (1) Tulane 1934
Red Dawson (1) Tulane 1939
Allyn McKeen (1) Mississippi State 1941
Henry Frnka (1) Tulane 1949
Red Drew (1) Alabama 1953
Bowden Wyatt (1) Tennessee 1956
Ralph Jordan (1) Auburn 1957
Charlie McClendon (1) LSU 1970
Fran Curci (1) Kentucky 1976
Bill Arnsparger (1) LSU 1986
Mike Archer (1) LSU 1988
Bill Curry (1) Alabama 1989
Gene Stallings (1) Alabama 1992
Mike DuBose (1) Alabama 1999
Tommy Tuberville (1) Auburn 2004
Gene Chizik (1) Auburn 2010
Gus Malzahn (1) Auburn 2013
Kirby Smart (1) Georgia 2017
Ed Orgeron (1) LSU 2019
http://a.espncdn.com/sec/football/2019/Record%20Book.pdf (http://a.espncdn.com/sec/football/2019/Record Book.pdf)
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Why is Jackie Sherrill on the list? He was 74-76-2 at Mississippi State.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/jackie-sherrill-1.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/jackie-sherrill-1.html)
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Why is Jackie Sherrill on the list? He was 74-76-2 at Mississippi State.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/jackie-sherrill-1.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/coaches/jackie-sherrill-1.html)
Probably because the list of HCs with 70+ wins at MSU looks like this:
Jackie Sherrill
Context, man! MSU has had 2 consensus all-americans. Ever. Alabama had 5 just last year.
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I think Pat Dye was a truly great coach...and he cheated like hell, probably the whole way.
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Probably because the list of HCs with 70+ wins at MSU looks like this:
Jackie Sherrill
Context, man! MSU has had 2 consensus all-americans. Ever. Alabama had 5 just last year.
Is this why there is no Kentucky coach on the list? Their only coach with 60 wins was already on the list at #1. SIXTY TWO years later and STILL their All-Time winningest coach! And did it in only EIGHT years! Stoops has 43 in seven years playing 1-2 games more per year. Will take him three more years to reach 60.
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The divide between the haves and the have-nots in college football is akin to it in real life.
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Stoops at UK is doing pretty well IMHO. I thought they might fall off to 4-8 this season. They did lose to Tenn though.
But, yeah, for him to be still below their all timer is interesting.
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The divide between the haves and the have-nots in college football is akin to it in real life.
i think it is safe for you and I to say that Bryant and Spurrier had it. Coach Bryant was on record as saying if Uf ever got a coach they were going to be a "tough out" with all the talent in that State. They sure as hell were when they got Spurrier.
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I thought Frank Thomas played baseball, but he did some great stuff at Alabama too, and I bet a lot of folks never heard of him.
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Ask even a big fan to name a HC pre-WWII, and they'll say Heisman, Rockne.....maybe Stagg. That's probably it. Neyland if they're an SECer. But there's Pop Warner, Leahy, Camp, Yost, THOMAS, Crisler, Wade,etc.....
If you told someone Vanderbilt had a HC that won about 200 out of 250 games, they wouldn't buy it. But it happened, just way the hell back in the day.
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Ask even a big fan to name a HC pre-WWII, and they'll say Heisman, Rockne.....maybe Stagg. That's probably it. Neyland if they're an SECer. But there's Pop Warner, Leahy, Camp, Yost, THOMAS, Crisler, Wade,etc.....
If you told someone Vanderbilt had a HC that won about 200 out of 250 games, they wouldn't buy it. But it happened, just way the hell back in the day.
Most don't realize that All-Time means ALL-TIME.
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When did that happen?
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1904-1934
Dan McGugin
197-55-19
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In half of his 30 seasons at Vandy, the Commodores lost 0 or 1 games.
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I'd put Neyland under Saban. You have to account for the 2 lengthy absences he took in order to serve his country. Take those away
and he might even be above Saban and Bryant.
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Spurrier was on a whole different level than Dooley.
Spurrier > Dooley by a country mile.
As a Vol fan.
Fulmer > Majors
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Spurrier IMHO was way ahead of everyone when he put his mind to it.
As a game day coach, he was without parallel, and it seemed obvious.
Saban is a massively successful coach, but I don't often watch his teams play and think "Wow, Saban really outcoached the other guy" that often."
I still don't know if Smart is average or better than average aside from recruiting. He did nearly win the NC, but he gets a ton of talent (which is part of it).