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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: medinabuckeye1 on December 03, 2019, 05:31:45 PM

Title: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 03, 2019, 05:31:45 PM
Michigan fans always like to point out that they hold a lead in the overall series and they do, 58-51-6.  Ohio State fans like me will always counter that Michigan's lead was built up when they went 13-0-2 in the first 15 games over 22 years from 1897-1918.  Additionally, after three tOSU wins in three years from 1919-1921 the Wolverines took over again and won six straight from 1922-1927.  After the 1927 game Michigan's record stood at 19-3-2.  

Then the rivalry entered a remarkable 76 year period.  From 1928-2003 neither team ever won more than four in a row.  

Ohio State's domination ever since John Cooper was fired has almost completely dug the Buckeyes out of the 3-19-2 hole that they started out in.  Michigan's lead is now down to seven games and Ohio State leads over any current time-period of 112 years or less.  
Hester Ford, born August 15, 1905
Iris Westman, born August 28, 1905
Irene Dutton, born July 16, 1906
Minnie Whicker, born July 24, 1906
Thelma Sutcliffe, born October 1, 1906
Louise Schaaf, born October 16, 1906

These are the only six living Americans in whose lifetimes The Team Up North has a winning record against The Ohio State University. They were born prior to Michigan's 6-0 win on October 20, 1906.


The series:

(https://i.imgur.com/9Tgz7co.jpg)

This is the 10 year rolling winning percentage.  Ohio State leads 8-1 from 2010-2019.  The 2010 game officially never happened so next year this will move to either 9-1 or 8-2.  Then the 2021 game will replace Ohio State's 2011 loss so this will move to either 10-0, 9-1, or 8-2.  It would take a five game winning streak for Michigan to get this to even.  
(https://i.imgur.com/n6kbt0w.jpg)This is the 25 year rolling winning percentage.  Ohio State leads 17-7 from 1995-2019.  The next three games, five of the next six, and seven of the next nine will replace Michigan wins.  Thus, if Michigan goes 7-2 over the next nine games their 25 year rolling winning percentage will remain at .292.  It would take a 13 game winning streak for Michigan to get above .500.  
(https://i.imgur.com/qrmGBOx.jpg)This is the 50 year rolling winning percentage.  Ohio State leads 27-20-2 from 1970-2019.  If Michigan started a winning streak next year, this would change as follows:

(https://i.imgur.com/ZcwXzy5.jpg)

This is the 100 year rolling winning percentage.  Ohio State leads 50-45-4 from 1920-2019.  If Michigan started a winning streak next year, this would change as follows:

Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 03, 2019, 07:47:22 PM
I was hoping for an OSU/UM thread during B1G championship week. Really, I was.



:a035:
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: FearlessF on December 03, 2019, 08:10:57 PM
I was expecting your post saying, this thread sucks
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: MarqHusker on December 03, 2019, 08:40:39 PM
Why  not just pin up The Navel Gazing Thread, aka The Game.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: 847badgerfan on December 04, 2019, 06:45:45 AM
I was expecting your post saying, this thread sucks
Well, it does. Sorry to disappoint.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on December 04, 2019, 08:01:00 PM
Sort of like Florida-Tennessee.  UF has a 29-20 edge, but UTK won the first 10 meetings.  So it's really 29-10, and since division play (1992), it's 22-6, Gators.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 04, 2019, 10:41:45 PM
Sort of like Florida-Tennessee.  UF has a 29-20 edge, but UTK won the first 10 meetings.  So it's really 29-10, and since division play (1992), it's 22-6, Gators.
Out of curiosity, why are there so few meetings? 

I was under the impression that the Gators and Volunteers had been conference mates in the SEC and predecessors for many, many years so it surprised me to see only 49 contests. 
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: MarqHusker on December 04, 2019, 10:48:45 PM
I don't understand why one dismisses so many games out of hand.  They were played, weren't they?   I understand that context matters and timelining is tricky stuff, but if the first 10 were 5-5 you wouldn't make any distinction. 

I mean, does Kstate waive away 80 years of results pre Snyder?  Your history is your history. 
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 04, 2019, 11:04:30 PM
I don't understand why one dismisses so many games out of hand.  They were played, weren't they?  I understand that context matters and timelining is tricky stuff, but if the first 10 were 5-5 you wouldn't make any distinction.

I mean, does Kstate waive away 80 years of results pre Snyder?  Your history is your history.
Like you said, context matters. Michigan has a better record if you are 112 years old. For everybody else Ohio State is the better team. 

Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 04, 2019, 11:08:06 PM
Yeah, I count 'em.

Michigan was a National power house while OSU was basically a D3 OAC team for the 1897-1912 games. So zeroing in on the Big Ten era makes some sense in certain cases.

Of course I also count the 2010 game.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 04, 2019, 11:11:45 PM
What's the record since 1934, when THE GAME was moved to the end of the season, launching the "Gold Pants" era?

Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: Cincydawg on December 05, 2019, 08:53:27 AM
Out of curiosity, why are there so few meetings?

I was under the impression that the Gators and Volunteers had been conference mates in the SEC and predecessors for many, many years so it surprised me to see only 49 contests.
SEC teams "back in the day" had some weird scheduling.  Georgia Tech would not play either Mississippi team in their state.  And they didn't.  Tech NEVER played MSU as SEC teams.  

https://www.ajc.com/sports/college-football/the-odd-history-between-tech-mississippi-state-ole-miss/zUwORXYzjdL2W1z4HmSsPJ/ (https://www.ajc.com/sports/college-football/the-odd-history-between-tech-mississippi-state-ole-miss/zUwORXYzjdL2W1z4HmSsPJ/)

Teams only played 6 conference games, and sometimes a game with a nonconference opponent would be counted as a conference game, and vice versa.  

For many years, the SEC allowed schools to arrange their own conference schedules, which sometimes resulted in unusual or imbalanced conference slates that varied according to traditional opponents and the university's athletic budget. The University of Tennessee is located in Knoxville (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville,_Tennessee) and the University of Florida is in Gainesville (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gainesville,_Florida), which are approximately 550 miles apart. Between the cost and time required to travel by train and the fact that the SEC did not require members to play each other very often, the two schools met on the gridiron only thirteen times between 1916 and 1969. Of those thirteen games, seven were played in Knoxville, two were played in Gainesville, and four were played in other locations in Florida.

Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: CWSooner on December 05, 2019, 12:14:52 PM
SEC teams "back in the day" had some weird scheduling.  Georgia Tech would not play either Mississippi team in their state.  And they didn't.  Tech NEVER played MSU as SEC teams. 

https://www.ajc.com/sports/college-football/the-odd-history-between-tech-mississippi-state-ole-miss/zUwORXYzjdL2W1z4HmSsPJ/ (https://www.ajc.com/sports/college-football/the-odd-history-between-tech-mississippi-state-ole-miss/zUwORXYzjdL2W1z4HmSsPJ/)

Teams only played 6 conference games, and sometimes a game with a nonconference opponent would be counted as a conference game, and vice versa. 

For many years, the SEC allowed schools to arrange their own conference schedules, which sometimes resulted in unusual or imbalanced conference slates that varied according to traditional opponents and the university's athletic budget. The University of Tennessee is located in Knoxville (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knoxville,_Tennessee) and the University of Florida is in Gainesville (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gainesville,_Florida), which are approximately 550 miles apart. Between the cost and time required to travel by train and the fact that the SEC did not require members to play each other very often, the two schools met on the gridiron only thirteen times between 1916 and 1969. Of those thirteen games, seven were played in Knoxville, two were played in Gainesville, and four were played in other locations in Florida.
Sounds like the very early days of the Southwest Conference, when Oklahoma was a member.  OU was co-champ of the SWC in 1915 with a 3-0 record, tied with Baylor, also 3-0.  Apparently there was no conference champ named in 1918.  OU was 2-0 and Texas was 4-0 in conference play.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: DevilFroggy on December 06, 2019, 12:27:10 AM
In the old Border conference, where ASU and uofa belonged before they moved to the WAC in 1956, also had weird scheduling. Texas Tech was also a member about the same time the Arizona schools where yet ASU and TTU never once played each other as Border conference members but TTU and uofa played annually as members.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: Hawkinole on December 06, 2019, 02:39:30 AM
Most of those initial wins, the persons of that time, are now deceased. It is unfair to deprecate them. Those results count, too. Being respectful counts. In 100 years would you want folks to think Ohio State's wins of the early 2000s should be counted but only at a lesser emphasis? So, if not, then stop. Every win, every loss, in the rivalry, is equal.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on December 06, 2019, 07:17:13 AM
When looking at games in the late 1800's and early 1900's, we are not really even talking about the same game that is being played today. The rules of football have changed so drastically since then that most people today would not understand what they were watching if they could watch one of the early games. 

When football started, it resembled what most people today would refer to as Rugby. There was no such thing as a forward pass, what we call Touchdowns now worth 6 points, were simply goals counted as 1 per goal. The number of players on the field was not uniform with teams deciding at game time how many players they were going to use. 

So if some people wish to discount these early contests, I can understand why. Personally, I would not consider those early games as anything more than exhibition games and experiments to get to the point where the game was formalized. As I really don't know exactly when that was and am too lazy to look it up and research it, I can't give a specific date/year when the game we know as football today, actually started. However, my guess is that is was into the early 1910's when that happened, if not later. 
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: Cincydawg on December 06, 2019, 07:28:11 AM
I think a fan can choose an era over which to count wins, fine with me.  I saw where Tennessee won the first ten games against Florida "back in the day".  Do they count?  If you want them to, fine, but the more recent string of wins and losses is more impactful for most fans.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 06, 2019, 08:15:17 AM
I think a fan can choose an era over which to count wins, fine with me.  I saw where Tennessee won the first ten games against Florida "back in the day".  Do they count?  If you want them to, fine, but the more recent string of wins and losses is more impactful for most fans.
This is exactly the point.  

The OLD games happened and they count, and I'll be thrilled when the Buckeyes take over the all-time lead in THE GAME, but they are different and vastly less impactful for most fans. 

If a Tennessee fan came here and said that the Vols were near equals with the Gators because they only trail 29-20, I'd say that they aren't anything close to near equals with the Gators currently because they've gone 6-22 since 1992 and 10-29 in the last 39 games.  

It is the same with the Michigan fans who say that their program is better because they have a 58-51-6 advantage in the last 123 years.  Any modern non-Michigan fan would tell them that their team isn't even a near equal to Ohio State let alone better because over any current time-frame of less than 112 years the Buckeyes have the edge.  

The Buckeyes have won eight straight, 14 of the last 15, 16 of the last 18, etc.  

In conference games (102 years, 1918-2019) the Wolverines are near equals with the Buckeyes.  The Buckeyes only lead by five games, 51-46-4.  If you want a Michigan lead you have to go back to the 1906 game which, as @NorthernOhioBuckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=40) pointed out, was played in a style more similar to modern rugby than modern football and bearing almost no resemblance to today's game.  
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: Cincydawg on December 06, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
Of real consequence I think is the last five.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: MrNubbz on December 06, 2019, 09:06:41 AM
In the old Border conference, where ASU and uofa belonged before they moved to the WAC in 1956, also had weird scheduling. Texas Tech was also a member about the same time the Arizona schools where yet ASU and TTU never once played each other as Border conference members but TTU and uofa played annually as members.
Was that coincidence,laziness or hard heads and cold shoulders?
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: CWSooner on December 06, 2019, 12:47:52 PM
I count all the wins and losses.

The OU-Texas series is a decent analog to Ohio State-Michigan.  The game has been played 115 times.  Texas leads in the series 62-48-5.  A 14-game lead.

I personally think of OU as the better all-time program.  OU has more national championships (7 vs. 4, although both schools have received minor "national championship" recognition for other seasons which they do not claim), a higher all-time winning percentage, more Heisman Trophy winners, more conference championships, etc.  OU has the longest winning streak in FBS history, and OU is the only school that has had three coaches win 100 games there.

But Texas owns the head-to-head record.

There are things I could legitimately point out to mitigate that.  It is true that Texas went 8-1-1 in the first 10 games (1900-1907), and that Texas was a more established program than OU then.  It is true that Texas went 17-3-1 from 1922 through 1947, and that Oklahoma was probably hit as hard as any state in the Union during the middle of that period, what with both the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression.  It is true that, since the end of WWII, OU leads the series 34-33-3.  It is true that, starting with the 1948 season, Bud Wilkinson's second, OU leads the series 37-33-3.  It is true that, starting with Bob Stoops' arrival in Norman, OU leads the series 14-8, and that Lincoln Riley leads Texas 3-1.

But Texas owns the head-to-head record.

That grates in the heart of every Sooner fan.  We all want to live for the day when we pass Texas in the series record.  Meanwhile, we can think of all sorts of explanations and rationalizations, including the fact that nearly all our games with Texas have been played in the state of Texas, where, you know, the zebras are breathing Texas air and other intangible factors work against us.

But, at the end of the day, Texas owns the head-to-head record.  62-48-5.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: MrNubbz on December 06, 2019, 02:33:33 PM
I count all the wins and losses.starting with Bob Stoops' arrival in Norman, OU leads the series 14-8, and that Lincoln Riley leads Texas 3-1.

But Texas owns the head-to-head record.
Damn thought it was 2 maybe 3
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: SFBadger96 on December 06, 2019, 03:10:03 PM
If those early Michigan wins didn't count, we couldn't derisively refer to "the Speech." I wouldn't ever want to give that up.

It's all part of the package that makes this sport fun to watch.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: Cincydawg on December 06, 2019, 03:17:31 PM
I know when Florida beat UGA something like 13 times out of 14, the fact UGA leads the series was of no consolation, at all.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on December 06, 2019, 03:24:57 PM
I count all the wins and losses.

The OU-Texas series is a decent analog to Ohio State-Michigan.  The game has been played 115 times.  Texas leads in the series 62-48-5.  A 14-game lead.

I personally think of OU as the better all-time program.  OU has more national championships (7 vs. 4, although both schools have received minor "national championship" recognition for other seasons which they do not claim), a higher all-time winning percentage, more Heisman Trophy winners, more conference championships, etc.  OU has the longest winning streak in FBS history, and OU is the only school that has had three coaches win 100 games there.

But Texas owns the head-to-head record.

There are things I could legitimately point out to mitigate that.  It is true that Texas went 8-1-1 in the first 10 games (1900-1907), and that Texas was a more established program than OU then.  It is true that Texas went 17-3-1 from 1922 through 1947, and that Oklahoma was probably hit as hard as any state in the Union during the middle of that period, what with both the Dust Bowl and the Great Depression.  It is true that, since the end of WWII, OU leads the series 34-33-3.  It is true that, starting with the 1948 season, Bud Wilkinson's second, OU leads the series 37-33-3.  It is true that, starting with Bob Stoops' arrival in Norman, OU leads the series 14-8, and that Lincoln Riley leads Texas 3-1.

But Texas owns the head-to-head record.

That grates in the heart of every Sooner fan.  We all want to live for the day when we pass Texas in the series record.  Meanwhile, we can think of all sorts of explanations and rationalizations, including the fact that nearly all our games with Texas have been played in the state of Texas, where, you know, the zebras are breathing Texas air and other intangible factors work against us.

But, at the end of the day, Texas owns the head-to-head record.  62-48-5.
As a neutral observer I consider Oklahoma to be a clearly better program than Texas and I don't need to look anything up to make that determination.  

I'm not completely shocked that Texas built up a big lead early (much like M vs tOSU) but I am surprised that Texas' early advantage does NOT completely explain their overall advantage.  Texas' lead is 14 games, 62-48-5 so if you eliminate that 8-1-1 start, the Longhorns still lead 54-47-4.  Note that the tOSU/M series is different in that Michigan's all-time lead is more than completely explained by their early wins.  Michigan's lead is a half as big (7 games vs 14) and Michigan's "head start" was bigger than Texas' at 13-0-2 or 19-3-2.  
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: CWSooner on December 06, 2019, 09:40:12 PM
As a neutral observer I consider Oklahoma to be a clearly better program than Texas and I don't need to look anything up to make that determination. 

I'm not completely shocked that Texas built up a big lead early (much like M vs tOSU) but I am surprised that Texas' early advantage does NOT completely explain their overall advantage.  Texas' lead is 14 games, 62-48-5 so if you eliminate that 8-1-1 start, the Longhorns still lead 54-47-4.  Note that the tOSU/M series is different in that Michigan's all-time lead is more than completely explained by their early wins.  Michigan's lead is a half as big (7 games vs 14) and Michigan's "head start" was bigger than Texas' at 13-0-2 or 19-3-2.
And as a neutral observer I consider Ohio State to be clearly a better program than Michigan.  But if Michigan were to to on an 18-3 tear and win a couple of NCs in the process, that perception would change.
The "who IS better?" question is weighted toward recency.  But "better all-time program" is a somewhat different issue, and all those early games have to count for that one.
Notre Dame is the best all-time program, but they haven't been great for quite some time.

EDIT: Good point about Michigan's more total domination of the series early.  The closest I can come with OU-Texas is the first 31 games, in which Texas went 21-9-1.  There are 12 games of the current Texas 14-game lead.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: DevilFroggy on December 07, 2019, 12:01:32 AM
While I'm aware neither Arizona school is nationally relevant, I do like to point out that despite uofa's all time 49-43-1 lead, they are only 26-34-1 vs Arizona State University. Back when we were previously known as the Normal School of Arizona (1899–1901), Tempe Normal School (1901–25), Tempe State Teacher's College (1925–28), Arizona State Teacher's College (1928–45), and Arizona State College (1945–58) is when they dominated the series.


I also like pointing out that ASU is 13-7 vs uofa this century and 7-3 vs them this decade.
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: ELA on December 07, 2019, 01:24:31 PM
While I'm aware neither Arizona school is nationally relevant, I do like to point out that despite uofa's all time 49-43-1 lead, they are only 26-34-1 vs Arizona State University. Back when we were previously known as the Normal School of Arizona (1899–1901), Tempe Normal School (1901–25), Tempe State Teacher's College (1925–28), Arizona State Teacher's College (1928–45), and Arizona State College (1945–58) is when they dominated the series.


I also like pointing out that ASU is 13-7 vs uofa this century and 7-3 vs them this decade.
Michigan fans are coming for you...
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 07, 2019, 01:57:03 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtCc0VFXMVc
Title: Re: The greatest rivalry in sports, THE GAME
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 07, 2019, 02:14:49 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Wmpxkd1CR8