CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: rolltidefan on September 27, 2017, 11:18:48 AM
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i'm guessing most of you have heard about this by now. link for those that haven't:
Basketball scandal (http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/20826573/what-need-know-fbi-ncaa-basketball-investigation)
i've read from local sports media to expect this to get bigger soon.
thoughts?
petino has aparently told his staff/team he expects to be fired. kinda surprised hasn't already happened.
ncaa gifted actual evidence from fbi in this one. any idea what kind of penalties are forthcoming? gotta be bad, right?
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Yeah, we were discussing it in the basketball thread.
Crazy Yankee logic
:88:
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was just reading up on that. but it's a b1g bball thread, and i don't usually step in there.
but i figured if hot seats, leaderboards, and personal pm's deserved their own thread, maybe the biggest sports scandal to come down in years is also worthy of one. no?
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was just reading up on that. but it's a b1g bball thread, and i don't usually step in there.
but i figured if hot seats, leaderboards, and personal pm's deserved their own thread, maybe the biggest sports scandal to come down in years is also worthy of one. no?
I probably would have. But it was already going in there.
I think Avery Johnson is building something pretty solid right now, and the threshold to be solidly #3 in the SEC (behind Kentucky and Florida) is pretty low. Arkansas, Tennessee and LSU (at least in recruiting) have both seemingly swung and missed at that title in recent years. I think South Carolina and Auburn were both implicated already in this, so forget them.
Missouri should be pretty decent for a bit until they land on probation.
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I probably would have. But it was already going in there.
I think Avery Johnson is building something pretty solid right now, and the threshold to be solidly #3 in the SEC (behind Kentucky and Florida) is pretty low. Arkansas, Tennessee and LSU (at least in recruiting) have both seemingly swung and missed at that title in recent years. I think South Carolina and Auburn were both implicated already in this, so forget them.
Missouri should be pretty decent for a bit until they land on probation.
i'm hoping so. he's got the guys showing a lot of progress, but it still has yet to materialize when/where it matters.
silver lining for being down so long with grant is that he was by the book guy. unless there was a complete rogue in the program, i don't think bama will be tied to it.
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Let's move the discussion here then.
I don't think we have limits on pages in a thread here though..
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I think this deserves its own thread.
Does anyone have a current link for a list of Addidas affiliated schools? Also, are all schools in a single contract for all sports or do some of them split it up into separate contracts for football, basketball, other?
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I think this deserves its own thread.
Does anyone have a current link for a list of Addidas affiliated schools? Also, are all schools in a single contract for all sports or do some of them split it up into separate contracts for football, basketball, other?
Power 5
ACC: Boston College-Under Armour (UA), Georgia Tech-Russell Athletic, Louisville-adidas, Miami-adidas, NC State-adidas
Big 10: Indiana-adidas, Nebraska-adidas, Maryland-UA, Northwestern-UA, Wisconsin-UA, Rutgers-adidas
Big 12: Kansas-adidas, Texas Tech-UA
Pac 12: Arizona State-adidas, Cal-UA, UCLA-UA, Utah-UA
SEC: Auburn-UA, Mississippi State-adidas, South Carolina-UA, Texas A&M-adidas
All the others wear Nike stuff.
Now, just follow the McD's AA/one and done kids and where they went to school. If it was an Adidas school, you can do the smell test.
If Nike and others were playing the same game, Bowen (for example) may have ended up elsewhere. I think that could be telling, but we'll see.
This seems like Adidas doing everything it could to stay relevant. Well, they accomplished that.
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damn.. UNL should have taken advantage of this..
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I knew when the US Atty office kept referring to these programs as 'top tier' programs, that there was no way Nebraska was involved in this, that's why, among other reasons, I'm not wedded to the whole Adidas as the sole bad guy here.
As noted elsewhere (the super secret Big Ten hoops thread that deflects outside eyes), this is what the Feds have.....for now. This is like SEC (Securities Exch Commission) coming in on 'sweep exams'. They get what they get, based on where they are sniffing around. If and when the Feds can compel guys to flip or continue to develop informants, this thing could get really bad for lots of programs. The subpoena power is a huge stick, only outgunned by the federal grand jury superpowers.
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per darren heitner (https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/status/913095940134903815) (no idea who he is, but not only one reporting it) fbi has subpoenaed nike info as well.
this is going to be ugly
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Yep.
Bout to be some top flight recruits to drop in some laps.
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I knew when the US Atty office kept referring to these programs as 'top tier' programs, that there was no way Nebraska was involved in this, that's why, among other reasons, I'm not wedded to the whole Adidas as the sole bad guy here.
I liked the Auburn blogger whose sole takeaway was that Auburn basketball was referred to as a top tier program.
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per darren heitner (https://twitter.com/DarrenHeitner/status/913095940134903815) (no idea who he is, but not only one reporting it) fbi has subpoenaed nike info as well.
this is going to be ugly
Sports attorney based down south, freelance writer.
He's legit.
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2018 5* EJ Montgomery decommits from Auburn
2018 5* Anfernee Simons decommits from Louisville
2018 5* Courtney Ramey decommits from Louisville
Auburn offers refund for season ticket buyers
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Long way to go before the dust settles on this mess.
Apparently the FBI is treating the programs involved as victims of a scandal but when the NCAA gets their turn I doubt they'll see it the same way.
IMO, the moral of the story will be that unlawful cheating is and will always be systemic to amateur sports where billions of dollars are involved. The stakes are too high to not be cheating.
Only winner in all this is the NBA D-League.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/7bf33283ce0035e58b8c8e814856b351.jpg)
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Dammit ELA. You owe me a monitor. Preferably one without coffee sprayed all over it like the one in front of me now.
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(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170927/7bf33283ce0035e58b8c8e814856b351.jpg)
Is this a real shirt and where can I order one?
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Nice one adam,one would think with the kind of coin they were raking in they could at least attempt to walk the strait & narrow.Too much is never enough I guess
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I shudder to think of what might've gone wrong if Pitino had been hired by Michigan before he ended up Louisville. Kind of fitting that his career ended against Michigan in the tournament, especially with it being a rematch of the 2013 Championship Game. There's some speculation that Crean or Matta could replace Pitino, at least on an interim basis, which would be intriguing.
Of course, apparently there's more to come, and it will be interesting to see what the NCAA does in the aftermath.
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Sounds like Miami and Alabama are next up
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More top tier programs?
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Sounds like Miami and Alabama are next up
Yep. Looks like I spoke to soon.
Bama had a staff person "resign" after he confessed to being an unnamed person in the FBI report.
Not sure what this means for bama or current player. Though at least one current freshman mentioned in connection.
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From now on I will (try) to refer to the university of arizona as "University 4"
So it has been written.
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if bama was cheating in basketball,.....
btw.. for the lawyers on the board, can they actually prove Fraud in this case? Or is it a reach?
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/sports/north-carolina-ncaa-academic-scandal.html?smid=tw-share (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/sports/north-carolina-ncaa-academic-scandal.html?smid=tw-share)
NC going to get away with it...?
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if bama was cheating in basketball,.....
btw.. for the lawyers on the board, can they actually prove Fraud in this case? Or is it a reach?
Three of the counts in the indictment that I scanned were for 'fraud' related charges. One was wire fraud conspiracy, and two other counts were for 'wire fraud'.
If the government can show the Defendant's offered $$ (using the 'wires') to these athletes in exchange for something of value (commitment to school/agents/advisers) and concealed said payments, then yes. The Fraud, in turns out, is against the school (oddly enough). As the schools could suffer economic or tangible harm (NCAA sanctions) by allocating scholarships to athletes who are ineligible as a result of the bribe payments. The defendants further (an argument) deprived the School of right to control the allocation of limited scholarships, because of the bribe.
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https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/sports/north-carolina-ncaa-academic-scandal.html?smid=tw-share (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/26/sports/north-carolina-ncaa-academic-scandal.html?smid=tw-share)
NC going to get away with it...?
An interesting article. If they do, I guess I wouldn't be surprised, but it would be absolutely infuriating.
If we are looking at case precedence, I am wondering how this didn't apply to Gopher basketball under Clem Haskins then? In that scenario Tutors were doing the majority of the work, so they may have been categorized as staff within the athletic department.
If this is ok for Carolina then can you imagine the precedent. Every school could create a few classes that cater to athletes that require little to no attendance and little to no work. I understand their are majors and programs that big time athletes steer towards now at many institutions, but they at least require some basic attendance and course work. This is full frontal.
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I'm sure Pitino is going to be "shocked" to learn that he is Coach 2.
SHOCKED, I tell ya.
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According to court records, Christian Dawkins, the former agent for ASM Sports who was charged in both parts of the college basketball case, told the cooperating witness, Marty Blazer, that he helped funnel $100,000 to the family of recruit Brian Bowen "at the request of a coach," identified as "Coach-2."
CBS first identified Pitino as "Coach-2" on Thursday.
Court records also said Adidas executive Jim Gatto "spoke directly with Coach-2 multiple times in the days before [Bowen] publicly committed" to Louisville.
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Because two Adidas employees involved in the scheme were having difficulty getting the money, they wanted to funnel the payments through Augustine's AAU program, which was sponsored by Adidas. According to FBI documents, at one point during the conversation in the hotel room, Augustine allegedly said, "No one swings a bigger [expletive] than [Coach-2] at [Adidas]" and added "all [Coach-2] has to do is pick up the phone and call somebody [and say], 'These are my guys; they're taking care of us.'"
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Thank you Badge for the list of Adidas schools although in light of more information I'm now not sure how important that is in the long-run.
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it's only basketball
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I'm sure Pitino is going to be "shocked" to learn that he is Coach 2.
SHOCKED, I tell ya.
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According to court records, Christian Dawkins, the former agent for ASM Sports who was charged in both parts of the college basketball case, told the cooperating witness, Marty Blazer, that he helped funnel $100,000 to the family of recruit Brian Bowen "at the request of a coach," identified as "Coach-2."
CBS first identified Pitino as "Coach-2" on Thursday.
Court records also said Adidas executive Jim Gatto "spoke directly with Coach-2 multiple times in the days before [Bowen] publicly committed" to Louisville.
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Because two Adidas employees involved in the scheme were having difficulty getting the money, they wanted to funnel the payments through Augustine's AAU program, which was sponsored by Adidas. According to FBI documents, at one point during the conversation in the hotel room, Augustine allegedly said, "No one swings a bigger [expletive] than [Coach-2] at [Adidas]" and added "all [Coach-2] has to do is pick up the phone and call somebody [and say], 'These are my guys; they're taking care of us.'"
Well considering a past scandal, I guess at least part of that could be verified by witnesses
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admittedly have not paid attention to any of this- what is the federal crime being broken? Got to be tax evasion. Wouldn't the IRS and not the FBI investigate that?
I just don't get why the FBI is investigating this. They have better things to be doing than worrying about Joe Schmo 5* high school ball player going to Louisville or Auburn because his family was funneled $50k.
You know, there are far more serious things like organized crime- the mafia still exists ya know, gangs like ms13 and the crips and the bloods, drug trafficking, human trafficking, murder, extortion, political/gov't corruption, corporate greed/corruption, wall street/banking scams and corruption- all sorts of good stuff for the FBI to work on.
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All fair questions. The alleged crimes here against the Adidas Exec. are wire fraud, money laundering conspiracies (the Victim(s) are the schools, believe it or not).
The alleged crimes here against the coaches are primarily wire fraud, wire fraud conspiracies, and solicitation of bribes, and bribery conspiracies. the victims are various in these instances.
There's always a question of resource allocation when it comes to any investigative body (DOJ, FBI, local law enforcement, etc. etc.) that card can be played at any time on any issue. Ex. I bet you guys don't know this, but just about every US Atty's office in the country has an AUSA who's primary job is to go after people who are not paying back the federal government (student loans), in a civil (non-criminal nature). Great use of resources? Maybe, maybe not, but the Gov't has a lot of resources, though not infinite, and initiatives, and at times are earmarked funds to undertake certain initiatives and lots of interests to protect. When I worked in a US Attys office for a summer I worked on all kinds of civil and criminal matters. It's not all glamorous stuff.
This case appears to have been generated by sources who came to the government, which in turn used informants to gather further evidence.
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footnote: Tax evasion? That could be a further matter which surfaces, as it relates to the recipient of the bribe. I obviously have zero information that you may or may not have, but I could see DOJ saying to the recipient of the bribe, 'you cooperate with us on X and we will not go there,' though you better believe there will be restitution.
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All fair questions. The alleged crimes here against the Adidas Exec. are wire fraud, money laundering conspiracies (the Victim(s) are the schools, believe it or not).
The alleged crimes here against the coaches are primarily wire fraud, wire fraud conspiracies, and solicitation of bribes, and bribery conspiracies. the victims are various in these instances.
There's always a question of resource allocation when it comes to any investigative body (DOJ, FBI, local law enforcement, etc. etc.) that card can be played at any time on any issue. Ex. I bet you guys don't know this, but just about every US Atty's office in the country has an AUSA who's primary job is to go after people who are not paying back the federal government (student loans), in a civil (non-criminal nature). Great use of resources? Maybe, maybe not, but the Gov't has a lot of resources, though not infinite, and initiatives, and at times are earmarked funds to undertake certain initiatives and lots of interests to protect. When I worked in a US Attys office for a summer I worked on all kinds of civil and criminal matters. It's not all glamorous stuff.
This case appears to have been generated by sources who came to the government, which in turn used informants to gather further evidence.
money laundering? seems like a trumped up charge to me and an abuse of power by the government. They should be charging bankers and business owners working for the mafia and gangsters with money laundering. Not some shoe company exec trying to get 5* high school basketball players to go to a school that wears his companies shoes.
This is a HUGE waste of gov't resources. One of the biggest misallocation of gov't resources that I have ever seen to be honest. And that's saying something.
If I understand correctly, the whole thing started when some scumbag investor with ties to a lot of athletes ripped off an athlete client by taking/stealing $550,000 out of the athletes account and using that money to produce a Hollywood movie. When the guy was called out on it by the athlete he just stole from he decided to pay that athlete back by ripping off another athlete and then got busted ripping off the second athlete. When he was busted by the FBI- and rightfully so- he offered to cut a deal and be an informant for something completely unrelated to the crimes he had just gotten busted for. FBI should've laughed at him, said we don't give a flipping shit about shoe companies, high school basketball players and college basketball- and then thrown the book at that jagoff and thrown him in jail for a long ass time for stealing almost $1,000,000 from two clients.
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I have no reason to not believe that Pitino is "Coach #2". With that said, if it comes out that he is not "Coach #2", holy crap is he about to sue the bejesus out of every media outlet that is running with it.
Don't get me wrong, all evidence I am seeing points to him being the lying douchbag we all thought he was, but in today's age of media / bloggers and their supposed "inside sources" running with a story that is less-than-100% confirmed, just to be the first one out there to say it....
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money laundering? seems like a trumped up charge to me and an abuse of power by the government. They should be charging bankers and business owners working for the mafia and gangsters with money laundering. Not some shoe company exec trying to get 5* high school basketball players to go to a school that wears his companies shoes.
This is a HUGE waste of gov't resources. One of the biggest misallocation of gov't resources that I have ever seen to be honest. And that's saying something.
If I understand correctly, the whole thing started when some scumbag investor with ties to a lot of athletes ripped off an athlete client by taking/stealing $550,000 out of the athletes account and using that money to produce a Hollywood movie. When the guy was called out on it by the athlete he just stole from he decided to pay that athlete back by ripping off another athlete and then got busted ripping off the second athlete. When he was busted by the FBI- and rightfully so- he offered to cut a deal and be an informant for something completely unrelated to the crimes he had just gotten busted for. FBI should've laughed at him, said we don't give a flipping shit about shoe companies, high school basketball players and college basketball- and then thrown the book at that jagoff and thrown him in jail for a long ass time for stealing almost $1,000,000 from two clients.
While I get what you are saying:
1) The FBI has several divisions. Some go after the mafia. Some go after art theft. Some go after businesses laundering money. Regardless of how "important" it is, there are people at the FBi whose job it is to go after these types of crimes.
2) While a million doesn't necessarily mean much in the eyes of the FBI in regards to one suspect, if this truly blows the cap off of the whole thing, you could be looking at millions upon millions of dollars that shoe companies have been pumping out. To quote Hans Gruber, " Well, when you steal $600, you can just disappear. When you steal 600 million, they will find you."
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While I get what you are saying:
1) The FBI has several divisions. Some go after the mafia. Some go after art theft. Some go after businesses laundering money. Regardless of how "important" it is, there are people at the FBi whose job it is to go after these types of crimes.
2) While a million doesn't necessarily mean much in the eyes of the FBI in regards to one suspect, if this truly blows the cap off of the whole thing, you could be looking at millions upon millions of dollars that shoe companies have been pumping out. To quote Hans Gruber, " Well, when you steal $600, you can just disappear. When you steal 600 million, they will find you."
this is only a "crime" because of dumbass amateurism rules.
If high school kid is allowed to sign a contract with Nike or Adidas, where is the "crime".
Hopefully this just leads to the end of the NCAA.
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Grillrat, funny you mentioned art theft. You are spot on, they do this. In fact, in almost every instance the art theft is often part of a larger money laundering operation. That is a nasty, filthy business overseas, Art, artifacts, etc. Huge black market, brutally violent too. I have some good stories.
The only reason we know about this (waste of time and resources) case, is because it involves major college basketball. Believe me, this case is very small potatoes in terms of time and resources. It is though very very high profile, which may very well incentivize the government for obvious reasons. It will likely succeed though in shining one bright light on this activity, acknowledging that nobody has a problem with Adidas paying school ABC $100 million bucks over x years for the brand rights, but somehow we're all supposed to lose our minds over these kinds of bribes.
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this is only a "crime" because of dumbass amateurism rules.
If high school kid is allowed to sign a contract with Nike or Adidas, where is the "crime".
Hopefully this just leads to the end of the NCAA.
The only reason they aren't getting paid if they want to be is the NBA rule, so don't leave them out.
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The only reason we know about this (waste of time and resources) case, is because it involves major college basketball. Believe me, this case is very small potatoes in terms of time and resources. It is though very very high profile, which may very well incentivize the government for obvious reasons. It will likely succeed though in shining one bright light on this activity, acknowledging that nobody has a problem with Adidas paying school ABC $100 million bucks over x years for the brand rights, but somehow we're all supposed to lose our minds over these kinds of bribes.
Amen.
Get rid of the amateurism rules and let adidas or nike sign contracts with the kids if they are 18 or with their parents/guardians if they are minors.
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If you get rid of the amateur aspect, a major portion of the fan bases will bail.
I know I would. I hate the NFL.
The easiest solution would be to have an NFL minor league. Then all the kids have a choice between football or an education and football.
Pretty simple.
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If you get rid of the amateur aspect, a major portion of the fan bases will bail.
I know I would. I hate the NFL.
The easiest solution would be to have an NFL minor league. Then all the kids have a choice between football or an education and football.
Pretty simple.
Baseball is the only sport that gets it right, both from the rule about declaring for the draft, and having a viable minor league. I get why the NFL doesn't have a legit minor league, with all the injury risk.
But for hoops, they could have a viable D-League, and adopt the MLB Draft rule, and I think everyone would benefit.
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If you get rid of the amateur aspect, a major portion of the fan bases will bail.
I know I would. I hate the NFL.
The easiest solution would be to have an NFL minor league. Then all the kids have a choice between football or an education and football.
Pretty simple.
No they wouldn't. Where is the evidence for that statement? Your own personal bias? You're one person. You might care a lot. But I'd bet that millions of people wouldn't give two shits if they ended amateurism. They are still going to love their teams. The die-hards will still die-hard. Alabama fans and Texas fans and Ohio State fans won't stop supporting their favorite football team.
This scandal hit about college basketball recruiting. The NBA has a minor league. The sports are just so different. The incentive for the programs/shoe companies to entice a 5* hot-shot is just so much greater in basketball than it is in football. One or two great players can make an entire program in basketball. One or two great players isn't making a program in football- it takes a village full of really good players to have a successful program in football. Also- NBA stars have their own shoes- they sell lots of sneakers. NFL stars don't. The shoe companies want to get their hooks in potential future NBA stars as early as possible. People line up to buy the shoes that Kobe Bryant or LeBron James or James Harden are wearing- they aren't buying the latest cleats that Julio Jones or Antonio Brown just wore.
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OK, soapbox time.
I would not have a problem With kids singing a shoe contract if you could ensure that absolutely positively the school is not involved in any way.....which would not happen.
I know I am in the minority on this one, but I still believe that students should not be compensated. Yes, the university is making money off of the student, but the student is getting 1) Free education 2) Free Food 3) TV exposure of their skills 4) Free tutoring 5) Free clothes, and frankly, those are the financial benefits alone. There are plenty of other benefits that are obtained sociably that go beyond what the school itself provides (Let's call it "perks" and leave it at that).
Even just keeping with the financial portion, for example, for a non-resident of Michigan, estimated costs per year for attendance at Michigan University is roughly $65,000. I think people keep losing perspective about that. $65,000 is $10,000 more than the median annual income of an American male with a bachelors degree. As a football player, you are going to school and earning a degree while playing football, and getting 10 grand more than someone who has already graduated.
The argument always proceeds to: "Yeah, the kids get their scholarship, but that is peanuts compared to the amount of money the university brings in." Which is a true statement, but one that completely ignores everything it takes to put that product on the field.
Ultimately, yes, there would be no football without the players. But you know what, there would be no football without the guy who paints the lines on the grass too. Same thing with the medical staff, trainers, office staff, equipment staffs, custodians, food vendors, ushers, broadcasting technicians (not the networks, the guys from the school who set up the infrastructure so that ESPN can come in and set up to broadcast the game with minimal effort), chefs, ticket sales workers, groundkeepers, the guy who changes the burned out lightbulbs in the stadium lights, program printers, logistics managers, transportation directors, bus drivers, compliance guys, coordinators, and a thousand other jobs it takes just so that those 85 kids can line up and knock their heads together every Saturday in the fall.
It's a huge, incredibly complex system, and everybody gets paid to do it. Why should the athletes get a bigger piece than what they are already getting "paid" when it already exceeds likely 90% of what everybody else just listed gets?
Letting a kid have a shoe contract is all well and good, but you KNOW that as soon as they let that genie out of the bottle, the bigger schools will be able to sell recruits on the fact that "if you sign with us, we will get you set up with a shoe contract lickety-split". Don't even bother denying it. It would happen. That is a recruiting advantage that small schools could not keep up with and they would never get a 4* recruit ever again. The shoe companies would fall over themselves to pour money at every QB, RB, and WR who singed with a helmet school, regardless if that player ever even saw the field or not.
And you know the day would come where A) Shoe company gives player money, B) Player goes out and breaks his ankle in game 2, C) Shoe company rescinds contract and demands their money back, D) Player sues the school because "he couldn't pivot on their crappy field turf" or "the band director let the tuba player on to the field too early and I ran into him". The longer that we can keep money out of the picture in regards to athletes performance at the university level, the longer we can avoid stupid crap like that happening.
I know it's naïve to think that this isn't somewhat happening already, but everyone saying "it's going to be that way eventually" doesn't mean it isn't wrong and something that needs to be fought against.
[/soapbox]
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No they wouldn't. Where is the evidence for that statement? Your own personal bias? You're one person. You might care a lot. But I'd bet that millions of people wouldn't give two shits if they ended amateurism. They are still going to love their teams. The die-hards will still die-hard. Alabama fans and Texas fans and Ohio State fans won't stop supporting their favorite football team.
This scandal hit about college basketball recruiting. The NBA has a minor league. The sports are just so different. The incentive for the programs/shoe companies to entice a 5* hot-shot is just so much greater in basketball than it is in football. One or two great players can make an entire program in basketball. One or two great players isn't making a program in football- it takes a village full of really good players to have a successful program in football. Also- NBA stars have their own shoes- they sell lots of sneakers. NFL stars don't. The shoe companies want to get their hooks in potential future NBA stars as early as possible. People line up to buy the shoes that Kobe Bryant or LeBron James or James Harden are wearing- they aren't buying the latest cleats that Julio Jones or Antonio Brown just wore.
Yeah, Nobody watches NCAA DIII CFB, where the kids actually go to class.
People say they want true amateurism with their lips, but their eyes are watching nothing but P5.
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OK, soapbox time.
I would not have a problem With kids singing a shoe contract if you could ensure that absolutely positively the school is not involved in any way.....which would not happen.
I know I am in the minority on this one,
No, you are not. It depends on the group to whom you compare yourself.
You're an alum. I'm an alum.
Not every fan is that. And, in general, those are the fans who don't care about paying players based on the "million" conversations I've had with fans across the country, in my football travels.
Alums do care. Alums give money too. Like, the vast majority of it.
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Hard to have much respect for a system that spends more time figuring out ways to prevent young people from profiting off their own work than it does well, anything else. The sense entitlement put on display by NCAA types is kind of gross.
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THEY RECEIVE A SCHOLARSHIP!!!!
It's not like this is slave labor. They are compensated appropriately.
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admittedly have not paid attention to any of this- what is the federal crime being broken? G
You know, there are far more serious things like organized crime- the mafia still exists ya know, gangs like ms13 and the crips and the bloods, drug trafficking, human trafficking, murder, extortion, political/gov't corruption, corporate greed/corruption, wall street/banking scams and corruption- all sorts of good stuff for the FBI to work on.
If they'd actually show they are serious this would be their focus
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No, you are not. It depends on the group to whom you compare yourself.
You're an alum. I'm an alum.
Not every fan is that. And, in general, those are the fans who don't care about paying players based on the "million" conversations I've had with fans across the country, in my football travels.
Alums do care. Alums give money too. Like, the vast majority of it.
That's where I'm at, if it's between the shoe companies or EA Sports and the kids profiting off themselves, cool.
When some car salesman in Norman, OK offers to pay a kid $100,000 to come sign autographs for an hour, wink, wink, is the problem with going in that direction.
I don't mind the kids getting paid. I do mind it turning into a bidding war between boosters. If I want to watch that, that's the NFL. I'm not simply going to watch a lesser version of that. For the same reason I don't watch D3 college football, it's a lesser version of FBS football. If NCAA football wants to go the full on NFL route, I'm sure they will be fine, but I have no interest in watching the lesser version of professional football.
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If you get rid of the amateur aspect, a major portion of the fan bases will bail.
I know I would. I hate the NFL.
The easiest solution would be to have an NFL minor league. Then all the kids have a choice between football or an education and football.
Pretty simple.
agree.. I wish minor leagues would be available and move CF Div 1 to basically Div 1A. Else, you'll have a free for all because a salary cap won't work. Universities cheat now. They'll cheat then too
And yes.. that probably means the big TV money goes with the minor league teams.
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admittedly have not paid attention to any of this- what is the federal crime being broken? Got to be tax evasion. Wouldn't the IRS and not the FBI investigate that?
MDot, i didn't mean to dismiss the first part of your post here, regarding what federal crime is actually being broken. I rather dismissively said it was obviously 'wire fraud' and wire fraud conspiracy, in addition to bribery and money laundering.
It's actually a seldom used, dare I say novel approach by the DOJ. As I noted earlier, the Government is asserting that the victims here are the Schools. The argument suggests the bribe, deprived the School of the proper use of its resources (the use of scholarship monies as they deemed appropriate) because the players are ineligible, because of the bribe.
This is called (by the Gov't) 'honest services' fraud.* It's kind of a new law (late 80s) and has been criticized by many. Supreme Court actually narrowed its reach a few years ago. It was mainly passed as law to provide a weapon against public corruption. This case is by no means a slam dunk, not because these things didn't happen, but whether these events constitute a federal crime, specifically
it must be a "fraudulent scheme(s) to deprive another of honest services through bribes or kickbacks supplied by a third party who ha not been deceived"
These guys who are getting fired, aren't going to get their jobs back, but it is certainly not a total lock that the defendants will either be convicted, or even if convicted, that the convictions will be upheld. There will likely be some pretty good arguments to attack the statute (again). No need to get into the rabbit hole of how a Court applies its reasonably foreseeable economic harm test. blah blah blah blah. Of course, we'll all be five years older by the time any of these criminal matters are disposed of at an appellate level.
*I know all this because I wrote a law school paper about the statute it during the Enron scandal and later it led to the conviction of Jeffrey Skilling, CEO of Enron under this law, as well as Gov. Ryan of Illinois among other Ill Governors (Blago).
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THEY RECEIVE A SCHOLARSHIP!!!!
It's not like this is slave labor. They are compensated appropriately.
Don't forget the snacks!
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Marq... not a lawyer, but is there more of a civil case here, rather than a federal?
btw.. regardless of the outcome, I'm glad the FBI is doing this. The NCAA needs to decide what they care about and pick a direction.
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Pretty sure it's Federal when state lines are crossed.
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No, you are not. It depends on the group to whom you compare yourself.
You're an alum. I'm an alum.
Not every fan is that. And, in general, those are the fans who don't care about paying players based on the "million" conversations I've had with fans across the country, in my football travels.
Alums do care. Alums give money too. Like, the vast majority of it.
FWIW: I am 100% with you and grillrat on this one.
If they dropped amateurism rules I'm pretty sure my school would benefit more than most but it would destroy the idea of an even remotely level playing field.
There are probably not more than a couple dozen schools with enough boosters to raise the kind of cash necessary to compete if it were just plain legalized as a bidding war. Then you have a few more schools (OkSU for example) that might have one or a small number of boosters who might be willing to shell out a few million to get their school a NC. Everybody else would be completely sidelined even worse than they already are.
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Pretty sure it's Federal when state lines are crossed.
I believe civil can cross state lines too.. Civil just doesn't involve the gov't.
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The US Attorney's Office (DOJ) can bring a civil suit , or it can seek a criminal indictment (usually by way of a grand jury).
The primary differences are these.
1. A criminal case are offenses against the state (government). remember victims (people) never 'press charges'. The state or the government does this, sometimes against the victim's wishes (which may end up torpedoing the State's case).
2.. Burden of proof. Civil actions have a lower burden (preponderance of the evidence), Criminal has a higher burden (beyond a reasonable doubt).
3. Punishment: Only Criminal matters could result in the loss of a person's freedom, not to mention fines. Civil, is either monetary damages, or a party stopped from doing something or forced to do something.
4. Criminal: right to trial by jury. Civil, might have a jury trial, likely in front of a judge.
5. Criminal: defendant has right to counsel, Civil: no such right exists.
6. Defendants have much more constitutional protection in a criminal matter vs a civil matter.
The #1 reason this is a federal case is the nature of the alleged crime (wire fraud, and money laundering), and how/where the informants surfaced. Could the US bring a civil suit against these people? I suppose they could, I haven't really thought about that angle, and what their cause of action would be.
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I believe civil can cross state lines too.. Civil just doesn't involve the gov't.
Absolutely civil can cross state lines, and yes Civil absolutely can involve the government. About 1/2 the US Attorney's work is civil in nature. Criminal cases may not be brought by private parties, but they certainly have access to the courts via Civil suits.
The topic of 'Subject Matter Jurisdiction' is the course you will want to take if you want to understand why some cases are in State court versus federal courts regarding civil cases. It's a humdinger of a topic. If you want a primer, google Erie Doctrine, or just subject matter jurisdiction.
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You are bringing back lawschool memories!
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We should start a feature board for people seeking legal advice. Half the proceeds to charity.
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thanks Marq for the clarity. Health Law was part of the FACHE exam and while it focused mostly on federal acts, we also studied the difference between fraud and abuse. Seems my memory was faulty on civil.. or it wasn't explicitly teased out and I assumed.
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I don't mind the kids getting paid. I do mind it turning into a bidding war between boosters. If I want to watch that, that's the NFL.
Thing is, it's not. The NFL has very specific rules about how the best players are introduced into the league (the draft), about how they move between teams regarding contracts, free agency, and the like.
Essentially NFL teams don't HAVE to recruit the best players, they get to choose them during the draft. The only time you really have them "competing" for a player's services is when a player moves from a contract to free agency. Other than that, they're dealing with players who have been released from other teams or are traded (with contract) from other teams.
And on top of it all, there is a salary cap. So the rich big-market teams may be able to tell players in free agency that they might get more endorsement contracts, the big-market big-money teams can't just "buy" a roster based on having more money overall to devote to their roster than other teams.
Unless you put ALL of those things into the NCAA, it becomes the big-money schools having an EVEN MORE ridiculous advantage than they do today, and we'll see the little parity we have go today down the tubes.
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I think playing players would lead to less competitive imbalance. Right now, the top schools get nearly all of the top players. If schools can pay, it would be too expensive to maintain that trend. Certainly, the money rich schools would still have advantages, but not to the extend they have now.
It would probably be more like baseball, where the top money teams still have clear advantages, but small market teams still compete but have less margin for error.
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I suppose after its all said and done the NCAA and respective schools will stop doing business with Adidas.
oh wait.
lol
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Looks like the NCAA will hit Arizona today, with allegations.