CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: medinabuckeye1 on November 28, 2018, 09:51:04 AM
-
As we all know, Northwestern and Ohio State will be playing for the B1G Championship on Saturday night.
Northwestern will be attempting to win their ninth conference title and first since 2000. Northwestern's last two (2000 and 1996) and six of their eight were co-championships which are, of course, no longer possible.
Currently, Northwestern is tied with Purdue for eighth in all-time league titles. With a win Saturday night they would move out of that tie and into a tie with Michigan State for seventh.
Ohio State will be attempting to win their 37th conference title and first back-to-back titles since 2008-09. Ohio State's last back-to-back outright titles were in 2006-2007.
Currently, Ohio State is second in all-time league titles and tied for first since joining the league in 1913.
Michigan holds the lead in all-time titles but Ohio State has been whittling away at their lead since Michigan's most recent title back in 2004. At that time Michigan was 13 titles ahead of second place Ohio State and actually farther ahead of Ohio State than Ohio State was ahead of third place Minnesota.
All time title leaders through the years:
- Wisconsin won the first two league titles (1896 and 1897) and held the lead until Michigan tied them in 1902 and passed them in 1903.
- Michigan held the lead until Minnesota tied them in 1910 and passed them in 1911 (Incidentally, Michigan was out of the league at the time. They left after the 1906 season and were out for 10 seasons from 1907 through 1916.)
- Minnesota held the lead until Michigan tied them in 1922 and passed them in 1923.
- Michigan held the lead until Minnesota tied them in 1940 and passed them in 1941.
- Minnesota held the lead until Michigan tied them in 1943 and passed them in 1947.
- Michigan has held the lead since 1947.
Michigan's current six-title lead over #2 is the smallest that it has been since prior to the 1973 season when they led Minnesota 24-18. If Ohio State wins on Saturday, Michigan's lead will be down to five titles which would be the smallest their lead has been since prior to the 1972 season when they led Minnesota 23-18.
Since Penn State joined (1993-2017):
- 11 titles: Ohio State
- 6 titles: Wisconsin
- 5 titles: Michigan
- 4 titles: Penn State
- 3 titles: Northwestern
- (tie) 3 titles: Michigan State
- 2 titles: Iowa
- 1 title: Illinois
- (tie) 1 title: Purdue
Since Michigan State joined (1953-20017):
- 28 titles: Ohio State
- 22 titles: Michigan
- 9 titles: Michigan State
- 8 titles: Wisconsin
- (tie) 8 titles: Iowa
- 5 titles: Illinois
- 4 titles: Penn State
- 3 titles: Northwestern
- 2 titles: Purdue
- (tie) 2 titles: Minnesota
- 1 title: Indiana
Since Michigan rejoined the conference (1917-2017):
- 36 titles: Michigan
- 35 titles: Ohio State
- 12 titles: Illinois
- 10 titles: Iowa
- (tie) 10 titles: Minnesota
- 9 titles: Wisconsin
- (tie) 9 titles: Michigan State
- 8 titles: Purdue
- 7 titles: Northwestern
- 4 titles: Penn State
- 2 titles: Indiana
- (tie) 2 titles: Chicago
Since Ohio State joined the conference (1913-2017):
- 36 titles: Ohio State
- (tie) 36 titles: Michigan
- 14 titles: Illinois
- 11 titles: Minnesota
- 10 titles: Iowa
- 9 titles: Wisconsin
- (tie) 9 titles: Michigan State
- 8 titles: Purdue
- 7 titles: Northwestern
- 4 titles: Penn State
- 3 titles: Chicago
- 2 titles: Indiana
All-time (1896-2017):
- 42 titles: Michigan (2004 last)
- 36 titles: Ohio State (2017 last)
- 18 titles: Minnesota (1967 last)
- 15 titles: Illinois (2001 last)
- 14 titles: Wisconsin (2012 last)
- 11 titles: Iowa (2004 last)
- 9 titles: Michigan State (2015 last)
- 8 titles: Northwestern (2000 last, 1996 before that)
- 8 titles: Purdue (2000 last, 1967 before that)
- 7 titles: Chicago (1924 last)
- 4 titles: Penn State (2016 last)
- 2 titles: Indiana (1967 last)
Source, B1G Media Guide (http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/big10/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/2018-19/misc_non_event/B1G_FBMG18.pdf).
-
All three of Northwestern's modern championships happened during years that they didn't have to play OSU, but beat Michigan.
-
most interesting part of this thread is learning mich/osu weren't always members of the bigten. and that osu wasn't a founding member.
-
most interesting part of this thread is learning mich/osu weren't always members of the bigten. and that osu wasn't a founding member.
What more would you like to know? Nebraska was turned down for membership a number of times. So was Notre Dame. So were a shit-ton of schools.
-
Lake Forest?
-
Iowa Pre-Flight
-
What more would you like to know? Nebraska was turned down for membership a number of times. So was Notre Dame. So were a shit-ton of schools.
Ya but ND returned the favor and rebuffed the BIG later.IMO from a regional footprint standpoint it would have been nice to add ND after PSU in '94 or just add Mizzou when UNL was added.Or just go back to pre-'94
-
most interesting part of this thread is learning mich/osu weren't always members of the bigten. and that osu wasn't a founding member.
Think tOSU was added when Chicago left or perhaps when M left for a few years
-
Think tOSU was added when Chicago left or perhaps when M left for a few years
OSU joined around the time UM left, but I'm not sure if that was a coincidence or not. Chicago hung around for a while. I think MSU was more the replacement for Chicago.
-
Lake Forest?
Lake Forest was part of the initial meetings but decided to remain a small regional school rather than go B1G. Much of the Chicago brass wanted the same thing (minus the regional part), but Amos had a lot of pull back in those days. The brass eventually won out, and yes, MSU was the replacement for Chicago.
-
Indiana and Iowa were also added later, but before OSU.
-
Ya but ND returned the favor and rebuffed the BIG later.IMO from a regional footprint standpoint it would have been nice to add ND after PSU in '94 or just add Mizzou when UNL was added.Or just go back to pre-'94
Correct. Right when PSU joined, Texas wanted in too. The presidents decided to put a "moratorium" on any further expansion (they were holding out for ND to come knocking).
In 1997, the ND faculty voted to join the Big Ten by a very wide margin. The AD and alumni carried more weight, and ND remains independent to this day (for football only*).
* The ACC is making them play, what, 4-5 games against their teams every year?
-
Indiana and Iowa were also added later, but before OSU.
Yes, in 1899. The charters were Minnesota, Wisconsin, Northwestern, Chicago, Illinois, Purdue and Michigan. It was the Purdue president's idea originally.
-
https://fbschedules.com/acc-notre-dame-football-opponents-2037/
Five ACC opponents per year.
I don't quite get this scheme.
-
All three of Northwestern's modern championships happened during years that they didn't have to play OSU, but beat Michigan.
History of Northwestern's League titles:
1903 co-championship shared with Michigan and Minnesota:
This is a weird one. Apparently the conference back then treated ties as non-entities. In the modern era ties were considered 1/2 a win. Ie, the B1G's most recent ties were in 1995. That year MSU finished 4-3-1 and the B1G Media guide reports that as a winning percentage of .563. The math is MSU's wins (4.5) divided by MSU's games (8) to get 0.5625. That was NOT the case in 1903. Here are the top three teams in the conference standings in 1903:
- Michigan: 3-0-1, 1.000
- Minnesota: 3-0-1, 1.000
- Northwestern: 1-0-2, 1000
By the modern method, Michigan's and Northwestern's winning percentage would be 0.875 (3.5/4) while Northwestern's would be .667 (2/3). However, back then ties were treated as if they didn't happen so all three teams were perfect in games not tied and shared the title.
FWIW: Northwestern beat Illinois by a point while tying Chicago and Wisconsin. Minnesota and Michigan tied each other (6-6) and mauled their other opponents. The six points given up in the tie with Minnesota were the only points that Michigan gave up all year. Michigan finished 11-0-1 while outscoring their opponents 565-6. Minnesota allowed six to Michigan and another six to Minneapolis Central High School while finishing 14-0-1 and outscoring their opponents 618-12.
1926 co-championship shared with Michigan:
The Wildcats and Wolverines did not play each other and both finished 5-0. The next best teams were Ohio State (3-1), Purdue (2-1-1), and Wisconsin (3-2-1). Michigan played two of the three beating Ohio State by a point in Columbus and Wisconsin by 37 in Ann Arbor. Northwestern played only one of the three, beating Purdue 17-0 in Evanston.
1930 co-championship with Michigan:
Similar to 1926 in that the Wildcats and Wolverines did not play each other and both finished 5-0. The only other team to finish above .500 in the league was Purdue (4-2) while Ohio State and Wisconsin both finished .500 at 2-2-1. Michigan played two of the three beating Purdue by a point in Ann Arbor and Ohio State by 13 in Columbus. Northwestern beat Ohio State by 17 in Evanston and Wisconsin by 13 in Evanston.
1931 co-championship with Michigan and Purdue:
The three co-champions each finished 5-1 but Michigan did not play the other two. In the only H2H among the co-champs, Northwestern lost to Purdue. Purdue lost to Wisconsin and Michigan lost to Ohio State.
1936 outright Championship:
Northwestern finished 6-0 ahead of Minnesota and Ohio State (both 4-1). FWIW, the Wildcats beat both the Buckeyes (14-13 in Evanston) and the Gophers (6-0 in Evanston).
1995 outright Championship:
Northwestern finished 8-0 ahead of Ohio State (7-1). As @Brutus Buckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=31) mentioned, Northwestern did not play Ohio State. The Buckeyes' loss was one of John Cooper's infuriating annual Michigan Meltdowns.
1996 co-championship with Ohio State:
The Wildcats and Buckeyes did not play each other and both finished 7-1 ahead of Penn State and Iowa (both 6-2), Michigan and Michigan State (both 5-3). Northwestern lost to Penn State (34-9) but beat Michigan (17-16) and Iowa (40-13). The Wildcats missed Michigan State. Ohio State lost to Michigan (13-9) in yet another of John Cooper's infuriating annual Michigan Meltdowns but beat Penn State (38-7) and Iowa (38-26). The Buckeyes also missed Michigan State.
2000 co-championship with Michigan and Purdue:
The Wildcats, Wolverines, and Boilermakers each finished 6-2 ahead of Ohio State (5-3). No other team finished with a league record above .500. Northwestern beat Michigan, lost to Purdue, and did not play Ohio State. Their other loss was to Iowa. The Boilermakers beat Northwestern and Michigan along with Ohio State but lost to Penn State and Michigan State. The Wolverines lost to Purdue and Northwestern but beat Ohio State.
-
OSU joined around the time UM left, but I'm not sure if that was a coincidence or not. Chicago hung around for a while. I think MSU was more the replacement for Chicago.
It was not a coincidence. Michigan left after the 1906 season and Ohio State was invited sometime later. The Buckeyes began conference competition in 1913.
This caused a break in the Ohio State/Michigan series because members were not permitted to play former member Michigan. Thus, Ohio State and Michigan played every year from 1900-1912 but then had a hiatus from 1913 through 1917 and resumed playing annually in 1918.
Chicago hung around through the 1939 season and yes, MSU was effectively their replacement starting league competition in 1953. Chicago was a major contender in the early league. When they won their seventh league title in 1924 they had the third most behind only Michigan (9) and Minnesota (8). The thing is that after that they were not a factor at all for their remaining years in the league. As I mentioned, they were in the league through the 1939 season but they were 0-11 in the last three years. Worse, in 1939 they didn't even score any points in league games losing 85-0 to Michigan, 61-0 to Ohio State, and 46-0 to Illinois. Their last league win was a 7-6 squeaker over the Badgers in 1936. Their last league title in 1924 was also the last time that they finished above .500 in the league.
-
Lake Forest was part of the initial meetings but decided to remain a small regional school rather than go B1G. Much of the Chicago brass wanted the same thing (minus the regional part), but Amos had a lot of pull back in those days. The brass eventually won out, and yes, MSU was the replacement for Chicago.
Note that Lake Forest was replaced by Michigan in between the initial discussions (which Michigan was not involved in) and the charter (by which time Michigan was in but Lake Forest was out).
I've said this before, but IMHO, that was a HUMONGOUS difference. The initial league but with Lake Forest instead of Michigan would have been essentially a Chicago-area conference:
- Northwestern: Chicago-area small private school
- Chicago: Chicago-area small private school
- Lake Forest: Chicago-area small private school
- Illinois: Large public school but in Chicago's state
- Wisconsin: Large public school but not far from Chicago
- Purdue: Large public school but not far from Chicago
- Minnesota: Large public school
I think that conference's most likely history would have involved expanding by bringing in other Chicago-area private schools and it would never have become a major national force. Eventually the large public schools in that league (Illinois, Wisconsin, Purdue, Minnesota) would have left for greener pastures in whatever would have developed around the area.
Replacing Lake Forest with Michigan gave the large public schools a supermajority of 5-2 in the initial membership which helped to lead to expansion including Iowa, Indiana, and Ohio State.
-
Interesting history, merits its own thread perhaps.
-
Interesting history, merits its own thread perhaps.
there was once a poster who was posting interesting history information from the past 50 years or some such. but that idiot never finished and has lost most of the info since. still mad at myself for losing that.
if things slow down in the real world i might try and revive something similar that in the off season.
-
I often tease my wife about playing tennis at a school that turned their back on the Big Ten. I don't think her Lake Forest peers know about their past.
-
For all the talk about the Big 2 or Big 4 in the conference, OSU has pretty much owned this conference for a long, long time. Especially since 2006.
There really is just a Big 1.
Who is #2 is debatable but there is no debate who is #1.
-
Minnesota and Illinois...what once was. Can it ever be again?
-
i might try and revive something similar to that in the off season.
There's an off season?Since when?Who Knew?
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw66ZZqzf7w
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw66ZZqzf7w
Twelving...
-
For all the talk about the Big 2 or Big 4 in the conference, OSU has pretty much owned this conference for a long, long time. Especially since 2006.
There really is just a Big 1.
Who is #2 is debatable but there is no debate who is #1.
Yeah. I'm 38 and remember Cooper being fired for losing to UM and their bowls a lot. But anyone 30 or younger only knows OSU dominance and probably wonders why Michigan is a thing. Wisconsin has been #2 off the top of my head, since Dayne was there. For younger fans, I bet UM and PSU are viewed as programs with history, but not anything special now.
-
I figure after a decade or so, maybe 15 years, of mediocrity, any program starts to appear to be mediocre to younger folks. I could see a recruit, for example, visiting Tenn or Michigan and thinking "I never knew they had so many trophies, and such a large stadium, and such nice facilities.".
They expect it at OSU and Alabama and Clemson. The excitement in getting a letter from Tennessee might be somewhat dimmed.
-
Today's recruits were 3 years old the last time M won a conference title. They weren't born to see UNL's last one. I'm starting to think that doesn't matter though, with the way they still recruit.
-
Since the Big Ten went to divisions in 2011
OSU - 2 conference titles, maybe 3 after Sat, 4 CCG appearances
Wisc - 2 conference titles, 5 CCG
MSU - 2 conference titles, 3 CCG
PSU - 1 conference title, 1 CCG
NW - 0 conference titles, maybe 1 after Sat, 1 CCG
Neb - 0 conference titles, 1 CCG
Iowa - 0 conference titles, 1 CCG
Mich, Indy, Rut, MD, Pur, ILL, Minn - 0 conference titles, 0 CCG appearances
Of course these numbers are skewed because OSU was on probation in 2012, and Wisc went to the CCG in OSU's place, and won. Otherwise, OSU's dominance would be more obvious.
-
Otherwise, OSU's dominance would be more obvious.
It would be more obvious if you used Divisional Championships instead of CCG appearances as the secondary basis of comparison:
- Ohio State: 2 Conference Titles (playing for a third on Saturday), 7 Divisional Championships, 4 CCG. (Lost tiebreaker twice, ineligible once)
- Wisconsin: 2 Conference Titles, 4 Divisional Championships, 5 CCG. (Went in place of ineligible tOSU and PSU as the third place team in the Leaders in 2012)
- Michigan State: 2 Conference Titles, 3 Divisional Championships, 3 CCG.
- Penn State: 1 Conference Title, 2 Divisional Championships, 1 CCG. (Lost tiebreaker once)
- Northwestern: 0 Conference Titles (playing for one on Saturday), 1 Divisional Championship, 1 CCG.
- Nebraska: 0 Conference Titles, 1 Divisional Championship, 1 CCG.
- Iowa: 0 Conference Titles, 1 Divisional Championship, 1 CCG.
- Michigan: 0 Conference Titles, 1 Divisional Championship, 0 CCG's. (Lost tiebreaker)
- Indiana, Rutgers, Maryland, Purdue, Illinois, Minnesota: 0, 0, 0
-
It would be more obvious if you used Divisional Championships instead of CCG appearances
Yes, thats a good point and I know that's how the Big Ten officially counts division championships. But I personally have never been a fan of the co-championships, both before divisions and now with divisions.
Yes, if you are listing 1st place finishes, you should list any tie for 1st. But that's not a championship in my view. That's what tiebreakers are for, to break the tie and determine who will represent your division as its champion in the CCG. The team sitting at home is not the division champion.
Anyway, that's why I listed CCG appearances instead of 1st place finishes. Which normally works as a strategy unless the 1st place team is on probation.
I almost wish the 2012 season would be treated the same way as vacated wins. When a team vacates a win, it does not make the loser into the winner instead. But OSU's 2012 regular season games did officially count, so I guess that is a good argument why they should be considered the division champion. On the other hand, Wisconsin did technically win the 2012 CCG, which technically makes them the 2012 conference champion.
I guess it all works out the more I think about it.
-
Yes, thats a good point and I know that's how the Big Ten officially counts division championships. But I personally have never been a fan of the co-championships, both before divisions and now with divisions.
Yes, if you are listing 1st place finishes, you should list any tie for 1st. But that's not a championship in my view. That's what tiebreakers are for, to break the tie and determine who will represent your division as its champion in the CCG. The team sitting at home is not the division champion.
Anyway, that's why I listed CCG appearances instead of 1st place finishes. Which normally works as a strategy unless the 1st place team is on probation.
I almost wish the 2012 season would be treated the same way as vacated wins. When a team vacates a win, it does not make the loser into the winner instead. But OSU's 2012 regular season games did officially count, so I guess that is a good argument why they should be considered the division champion. On the other hand, Wisconsin did technically win the 2012 CCG, which technically makes them the 2012 conference champion.
I guess it all works out the more I think about it.
My position on the Divisional Championship that Ohio State "won" in 2012 is that the rule should read as follows:
- The team with the best record in the division shall be the division Champion if they are eligible to play in the CCG. If not, then the eligible team with the best record shall play in the CCG and their shall be NO Divisional Champion for that year.
I've always found it odd that Ohio State was the outright Champion in 2012 but didn't play in the CCG. I would also find it odd to declare a .500 Wisconsin team the "Champion" so that is why my suggestion would just have no champion for that year.
As far as co-championships, I don't know what to think. On a one year basis, who cares. I felt that way in 2015 when Ohio State lost the H2H tiebreaker to MSU and in 2016 when Ohio State lost the H2H tiebreaker to PSU and I feel that way this year when M lost the H2H tiebreaker to tOSU.
That said, in the context of a streak, I think they should be considered valid. Ie, Ohio State has won five consecutive B1G-E championships and seven consecutive B1G Divisional titles:
- 2018, B1G-E Co-Champions with Michigan, won H2H tiebreaker
- 2017, B1G-E outright Champions
- 2016, B1G-E Co-Champions with PSU, lost H2H tiebreaker
- 2015, B1G-E Co-Champions with MSU, lost H2H tiebreaker
- 2014, B1G-E outright Champions
- 2013, B1G-Leaders outright Champions
- 2012, B1G-Leaders outright Champions, ineligible for CCG
-
<br />(https://i.ibb.co/0FZZPKr/20161202-231044.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0FZZPKr)<br />
Identify these Big Ten Champions.
-
Well shit. That shirt makes me look fat, and who the hell is that bitter drunken cop draped all over me??
-
<br />(https://i.ibb.co/0FZZPKr/20161202-231044.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0FZZPKr)<br />
Identify these Big Ten Champions.
Well I recognize @Roaddawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=68) and @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) 's comment (along with the shirt) makes it obvious who he is.
-
We were all pretty well served at this point
-
Nah. Never happens.
-
Guy in the back looks sleepy
-
That was a good night! Great set up for an enjoyable next day downtown as well.
-
who the hell is that bitter drunken cop draped all over me??
Fife,Barney Fife......I mean Capt.America
-
Speaking of Conference Championships...
https://twitter.com/Ourand_SBJ/status/1070358601305374720?s=19
-
I have always preferred to emphasize co-champs. That's the opposite of how I think most like to portray, but my opinion on the matter has always been if you don't want to share, then win it outright.
Ohio State and Michigan tied at 8-1 this year. Ohio State got to go to the Big Ten Championship for a chance at a conference championship and won it. That was the reward for winning the tie-breaker with Michigan. If we didn't want to have to accept we are co-divisional champs with Michigan though, we should have beaten Purdue.
-
Speaking of Conference Championships...
https://twitter.com/Ourand_SBJ/status/1070358601305374720?s=19
Heh, he might as well have said rutger
-
I should update the OP so here goes:
In the 102 years that Ohio State and Michigan have both been in the conference (1917-2018) they are now tied for first with 36 titles each. They each have three times as many as third place Illinois. Ohio State's and Michigan's 72 titles over the past 102 seasons is just one less than the combined titles won by the other 13 schools that have played in this league during that time.
Michigan's lead in all-time titles is down to five at 42-37 over Ohio State. Their lead has not been that small since prior to the 1972 season when they led Minnesota 23-18.
The last 26 years have been amazing for my Buckeyes. Cooper's last eight years (1993-2000), Tressel's 10 years (2001-2010), Fickell's year (2011), and Meyer's seven years (2012-2018) have seen 12 league titles, two NC's and numerous great seasons. Over those 26 years the Buckeyes have the best winning percentage in CFB (by far), the most wins in CFB (again by far), etc.
I was an Ohio State fan prior to 1993, but I started at Ohio State as a freshman in the fall of 1993. Being a fan of this program has been a great ride for the last 26 years and I hope it continues under Coach Day. Other teams have won more NC's and had higher highs over the past 26 years but no team has even been in Ohio State's universe in consistency. Nebraska was phenomenal with their three NC's in four years from 1994-1997 and obviously Bama has been the team to beat for the last decade but both of those teams had bad times to go with the good. In the last 26 years Ohio State had one three-year lull (1999-2001) in which they were a pedestrian 21-15 but even that was punctuated by a near NC in 1998 and an actual NC in 2002. Outside of that, the Buckeyes haven't had consecutive seasons of single-digit wins since I was in High School.