CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Four => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on November 24, 2025, 08:27:25 PM
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2000-2009
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TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
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DT -
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2000-2009
QB -
RB -
RB -
WR -
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TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
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DE -
DT -
DT -
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QB -
RB -
RB -
WR -
WR -
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C -
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT -
LB -
LB -
LB -
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QB -
RB -
RB -
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR -
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C -
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT -
LB -
LB -
LB -
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QB -
RB -
RB -
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR -
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C -
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT -
LB -
LB -
LB -
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
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P -
RET -
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QB -
RB -
RB -
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR -
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C -
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB -
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
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RET -
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QB is gonna be highly contested, I'm sure, but I'd go with Vince Young, Texas.
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me too
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QB -
RB -
RB -
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR -
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C -
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S -
K -
P -
RET -
Surprised we named two LBs before the first player since Herschel Walker to be a 3x Consensus AA
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LBs dont sell magazines.
I realize there's ambiguity over 'consensus' but wasnt Marshall Faulk a 3 time 1st team AA.
Herschel is the only unanimous 3x AA.
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QB is gonna be highly contested, I'm sure, but I'd go with Vince Young, Texas.
me too
Then put it in there. I'm not gonna do it and be accused of being a homer.
To me the choice is obvious.
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well, Barry Sanders was an obvious choice........ good luck
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well, Barry Sanders was an obvious choice........ good luck
Who got the 80s slot ahead of him?
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Then put it in there. I'm not gonna do it and be accused of being a homer.
To me the choice is obvious.
I think the top 2 are obvious. I could go either direction on which deserves #1
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LBs dont sell magazines.
I realize there's ambiguity over 'consensus' but wasnt Marshall Faulk a 3 time 1st team AA.
Herschel is the only unanimous 3x AA.
Yes, 3 time 1st team AP AA, but only 2 time consensus.
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Then put it in there. I'm not gonna do it and be accused of being a homer.
To me the choice is obvious.
I already added three names in one fell swoop, didn't wanna bogart the whole thing. I just added the ones that were more clear in my mind.
ELA,
The James Laurinaitis thing, fair enough, I certainly won't quibble about it. I didn't put him in, in favor of a couple others strictly because I wasn't thinking about awards, just how good I thought they were. Buckeyes will call me a hater for this, but I think JL was just pretty good, and not at the same level of the other two I offered. YMMV of course.
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I think the top 2 are obvious. I could go either direction on which deserves #1
Yep. I'll everyone else fight it out.
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Who got the 80s slot ahead of him?
Bo Jackson and Hershel.
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QB - Vince Young, Texas
RB -
RB -
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C -
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
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K -
P -
RET -
Done. Cowards. Also, 2nd WR added.
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Lots of good running backs to choose from. Cedric Benson, Adrian Peterson, Marc Ingram, Darren McFadden, Reggie Bush, a few that didn't play for national title contenders: Marshawn Lynch, Darren Sproles, Marion Barber III, Ray Rice. Embarrassment of riches.
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Lots of good running backs to choose from. Cedric Benson, Adrian Peterson, Marc Ingram, Darren McFadden, Reggie Bush, a few that didn't play for national title contenders: Marshawn Lynch, Darren Sproles, Marion Barber III, Ray Rice. Embarrassment of riches.
I almost stuck Ron Dayne on there, but fortunately I saved myself some embarrassment by looking him up and correcting my faulty memory which thought he played in 2000.
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QB -
RB -Ricky Williams
RB -
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR -
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C -
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S -
K -
P -
RET - Ted Ginn Jr.
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Nubbz, Ricky Williams played for Texas in the 90s...unless you're thinking of a different Ricky Williams?
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QB -
RB -Ricky Williams
RB -
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR -
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C -
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S -
K -
P -
RET - Ted Ginn Jr.
Ricky Williams is 90s but I like your style.
Lots of good running backs to choose from. Cedric Benson, Adrian Peterson, Marc Ingram, Darren McFadden, Reggie Bush, a few that didn't play for national title contenders: Marshawn Lynch, Darren Sproles, Marion Barber III, Ray Rice. Embarrassment of riches.
No doubt, a ridiculous number of excellent RBs. I couldn't choose just 2.
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the other Ricky Williams wasn't shabby
but, he didn't do so well in the NFL
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I think UGA had a pretty decent DE who also didn't do well in the NFL.
He's now an announcer of some sort.
David Pollack (2020) - Hall of Fame - National Football Foundation (https://footballfoundation.org/hof_search.aspx?hof=2461)
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WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
A coach can dream can't he? Imagine Brady/Marino/Elway and host of others throwing to those two.They'd of never lost a game unless it was freezing rain/sleet
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I think Adrian Peterson has to be one of the RBs. An embarrassment of riches, yes, but he stands out in any crowd.
Pollack was on track to do really well in the NFL. The neck injury ended him.
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I would take AP and Reggie Bush. The latter wasn't built for the NFL, but he was amazing as a college back.
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Ricky Williams is 90s but I like your style.
No doubt, a ridiculous number of excellent RBs. I couldn't choose just 2.
I voted him in Junior,can you imagine him and Marshawn Lynch in the same backfield? Taking turns pounding a defense while the other is taking a breather and firing up some spleef in the injury tent
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I thought everyone agreed the NFL track record had to be considered.....
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WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
A coach can dream can't he? Imagine Brady/Marino/Elway and host of others throwing to those two.They'd of never lost a game unless it was freezing rain/sleet
Or Aaron Rodgers, if we're thinking about 2000s college players.
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Ricky Williams is 90s but I like your style.
oops - did I mention I'm into the Shiner
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I thought everyone agreed the NFL track record had to be considered.....
it's the 1st tie breaker
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I would take AP and Reggie Bush. The latter wasn't built for the NFL, but he was amazing as a college back.
Same
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I thought everyone agreed the NFL track record had to be considered.....
You damned, dirty ape!! :96:
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I put the 3rd pass-catcher as a WR/TE because that's how offenses were trending. Same as why I put 3 RB slots for the 1970s all-time team.
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I would take AP and Reggie Bush. The latter wasn't built for the NFL, but he was amazing as a college back.
Yup those are my two.
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OK I'll just do it, can't call me a homer for picking a golderned sooner. Evil Roy Williams is also a strong contender at Safety but there ain't no way I'm putting in two golderned sooners.
I think this is a reset to where it should be--
QB - Vince Young, Texas
RB - Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma
RB -
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C -
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S -
K -
P -
RET -
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I added back in Ted Ginn which was contributed by @MrNubbz (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=17)
I had to put Reggie Bush in. I have to think of him as the offensive Swiss Army Knife of the 2000s. I loved watching Darren McFadden break one to see DBs take an angle and then suddenly realize "oh shit he's WAY too fast for this angle", but Bush was the guy.
QB - Vince Young, Texas
RB - Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma
RB - Reggie Bush, USC
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C -
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S -
K -
P -
RET - Ted Ginn, JR, OSU
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Kaeding or Nugent?
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QB - Vince Young, Texas
RB - Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma
RB - Reggie Bush, USC
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C - Maurkice Pouncey, Florida
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S - Sean Taylor, Miami
K -
P -
RET - Ted Ginn, JR, OSU
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I put the 3rd pass-catcher as a WR/TE because that's how offenses were trending.
So you carved out a spot for Kellen Winslow Jr?
(https://www.umsportshalloffame.com/uploads/4/3/8/4/43847997/986618.jpg)
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Percy Harvin, somewhere.
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QB - Vince Young, Texas
RB - Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma
RB - Reggie Bush, USC
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C - Maurkice Pouncey, Florida
DE -
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S - Sean Taylor, Miami
K -
P - Kevin Huber, Cincinnati
RET - Ted Ginn, JR, OSU
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Fun fact about the QB who wasn't chosen: He went 1-1 vs Saban's Alabama teams who went 26-2 those years without Percy Harvin in either game.
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He was a damn fine college quarterback. I'd still pick Vince Young every day of the week and twice on Saturday.
Hmm, I think I'll amend that: I wouldn't pick either of them on Sunday. The Sunday guy for this list would have to be Aaron Rodgers. :-)
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It's funny about VY. Take away that one RB game, and he's just another great QB from the past. You can pick any 1 game you want and take it away from TT, and he's still TT.
BUT THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN!!! :57:
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It's funny about VY. Take away that one RB game, and he's just another great QB from the past. You can pick any 1 game you want and take it away from TT, and he's still TT.
BUT THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN!!! :57:
In fairness I said there was an obvious top 2, and I'd be fine with either one being #1, so I didn't want to make the call.
Was really hoping Jason White would enter the chat at that point
And also, it's those TWO Rose Bowl games
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I'm not one to stand up for Longhorns but........ I saw Vince take apart the Blackshirts as a freshman
Vince had a much more impressive freshman season than TT and Vince didn't play a senior season
Vince had a noticeable improvement in passing from Soph to JR season - what might have been as a senior
EDIT: _______________________________
Vince also had to overcome his offensive coordinator - GD Greg Davis
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QB - Vince Young, Texas
RB - Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma
RB - Reggie Bush, USC
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
TE/WR -
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C - Maurkice Pouncey, Florida
DE - Terrell Suggs, Arizona St.
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S - Sean Taylor, Miami
K -
P - Kevin Huber, Cincinnati
RET - Ted Ginn, JR, OSU
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QB - Vince Young, Texas
RB - Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma
RB - Reggie Bush, USC
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
TE/WR - Dallas Clark, Iowa
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C - Maurkice Pouncey, Florida
DE - Terrell Suggs, Arizona St.
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S - Sean Taylor, Miami
K -
P - Kevin Huber, Cincinnati
RET - Ted Ginn, JR, OSU
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I'm not one to stand up for Longhorns but........ I saw Vince take apart the Blackshirts as a freshman
Vince had a much more impressive freshman season than TT and Vince didn't play a senior season
Vince had a noticeable improvement in passing from Soph to JR season - what might have been as a senior
EDIT: _______________________________
Vince also had to overcome his offensive coordinator - GD Greg Davis
He'd better have, with a 1:1 TD:INT ratio his first 2 years. For some reason, that gets swept under the rug.
VY's best passing year: 163.9
TT's worst passing year: 164.2
This is fun.
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...but let's stay on-topic here.
KAEDING OR NUGENT?!?!
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He'd better have, with a 1:1 TD:INT ratio his first 2 years. For some reason, that gets swept under the rug.
VY's best passing year: 163.9
TT's worst passing year: 164.2
This is fun.
who was the O-coordinator for each?
Greg Davis won the Broyles award in 2005! (Vince Young)
on December 6, 2010, after the worst season in the Mack Brown era at the University of Texas, Greg Davis resigned as offensive coordinator of the Longhorns. The 2010 season was the first season in 13 years the Longhorns failed to make a bowl game, and the first in nine seasons the Longhorns failed to reach 10 wins on the season.
After a year out of football, Davis was hired by the University of Iowa for the 2012 season. Greg Davis replaced Ken O'Keefe as the offensive coordinator for the Iowa Hawkeyes in 2012.
This is hilarious!
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...but let's stay on-topic here.
KAEDING OR NUGENT?!?!
Henery attended the University of Nebraska–Lincoln, and played for the Nebraska Cornhuskers football team from 2007 to 2010. For most of his college career, he served as the punter and placekicker for the Cornhuskers, and received all-conference honors at both positions. He was a second-team All-Big 12 selection at placekicker in 2009 and 2010, and was previously an honorable mention selection in 2008; at punter, he was a second-team All-Big 12 selection in 2010, and received honorable mention honors in 2009. On November 28, 2008, he set a Nebraska team record when he kicked a 57-yard field goal [1] in a 40–31 victory over the Colorado Buffaloes. During his four seasons as a Cornhusker, he set an NCAA career record by completing 89.5 percent of his attempted field goals. His total accuracy on combined field goals and extra points also set a new NCAA record of 96.7 percent. He is the all-time leading scorer in Nebraska history with 397 points.
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who was the O-coordinator for each?
Greg Davis won the Broyles award in 2005! (Vince Young)
...but Davis was his OC in his first 2 years as well, when he sucked as a passer.
And how come who the OC was never pops up for other player vs player debates?!? Idk who the fuck Barry Sanders' or Herschel Walker's OCs were. No clue who Larry Fitzgerald's or Randy Moss' were, either. I know who Burrow's OC was in 2019, but not 2018.
I think it's called an excuse. I'm saying TT was better because of what they actually did on the field. You're now suggesting VY was better because of what could have been. One of us is on firm footing and the other is more like feelings.
And here, feelings has won out. And since I value democracy (despite not thinking highly of the masses - the actual masses, not yous guys) it's A-okay with me.
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...but Davis was his OC in his first 2 years as well, when he sucked as a passer.
the point is......... GD Greg Davis sucked
Vince all by himself elevated a crappy coordinator to a Broyles award - Vince was that good
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Your besmirching of Greg Davis made me dive deeper. Here's his Texas offenses in terms of national ranking for scoring:
1998-2010
11th, 12th, 8th, 6th, 16th, 6th, 12th, 1st, 6th, 15th, 5th, 3rd, 88th
That's a bad OC?
Texas' offense fell off a cliff after McCoy left, not Young.
Young's years are in bold.
Blindly, let's do TT and Mullen.
49th, 24th, 3rd, 4th, (new OC) 10th, 43rd, (new HC) 71st, 78th
Boy, Mullen doesn't look so great pre-Tebow. And things fell off a cliff after Tebow.
I'm not sure what this shows for either QB, but I don't think it says anything FOR VY and against TT. If anything, it's neutral or leans for TT. But I'm not subjective.
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the point is......... GD Greg Davis sucked
Vince all by himself elevated a crappy coordinator to a Broyles award - Vince was that good
If only the data supported this!!! :91:
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well, I was forced to listen to Horns & Hawks besmirching of GD Greg Davis for YEARS & years!
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it's A-okay with me.
If that were true you'd STFU about it. But it's not, and you haven't. You insist on going on and on and on about it.
If you were ACTUALLY taking a positive stance and the high road on it, you'd just stop. But you aren't because you can't. You just keep on lecturing everyone about how wrong they are.
Same as it ever was.
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I think it's fun to debate. Soooo sorry.
If I wasn't okay with it, what's the first name that I'd post when I started the thread, friend?
Debating is more fun when all the facts are on your side, btw.
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well, I was forced to listen to Horns & Hawks besmirching of GD Greg Davis for YEARS & years!
GDGD was awful. Only when he and Mack Brown stopped interfering and let Vince be Vince, did things improve considerably. Ironically, Vince Young ignoring GDGD, is what won GDGD the Broyles award.
Anyway, don't care, Horns won the NC. Hook 'em!
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I think it's fun to debate. Soooo sorry.
If I wasn't okay with it, what's the first name that I'd post when I started the thread, friend?
Debating is more fun when all the facts are on your side, btw.
LOLOLOL
Nobody's fooled by you. Keep on keeping on.
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Eh. I'm not going to get on OAM's case because of his arguing in favor of Tebow.
I feel like he has a similar thing on this that I have with Drew Brees. In my case it's that I think Brees is given short shrift because he played on a team that just wasn't ever going to be great. The players around him were good but not NC-worthy. His biggest accomplishment was getting Purdue to, but not winning, a Rose Bowl. People don't recognize how good he was because of the name on the front of his jersey, and because he had Joe Tiller and the "basketball on grass" offensive scheme that allows people to dismiss him as a "system QB".
For Tebow, he didn't really have the same limitations regarding the players around him. But I think outsiders view his time at Florida as a little bit "gimmicky". The use practically as a fullback. The jump passes. And then the holier-than-thou religiousness (which I'm sure OAM gets conflicted about) which is a turnoff to a large proportion of fans. I think OAM's problem is that we think of the "style points" portion of this argument with Tebow hurting his case, but then the statistical arguments back up that he was really freakin' good. And that Vince Young's "style points" largely is a basis of his athleticism and some really big "splash" plays when the lights were on, but he wasn't necessarily all that good statistically.
The perception was that Vince Young was a generational talent who could "do it all", even though maybe statistically he actually wasn't that great of a passer. And the perception was that Tim Tebow was a fullback converted to QB who was a gimmick player, even though statistically he was actually a pretty dang good passer.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can see his argument that VY's ascendance to the rarified air was mostly based on two performances in Pasadena.
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Personally, I'm still mad that John Elway didn't get a better look for the 1980s.
Which is to say that I agree with BRAD (at least I think I'm agreeing) that players on non-national title contenders don't get enough respect. Yeah, Brees was amazing. So was Aaron Rodgers (I may have mentioned him up thread somewhere). (And others, I'm sure--like even Marion Barber III, for instance.)
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nobody liked rich kid spoiled brat Elway either
;)
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.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but I can see his argument that VY's ascendance to the rarified air was mostly based on two performances in Pasadena.
What else should it be based on? Spectacular performances on the biggest stages. Yeah, sure, that's a hallmark of mediocrity.
Anyway, only one person has chosen to turn this entire thread into a debate, a debate he easily could have avoided simply by installing Tim Tebow as the QB of the 2000s. I wasn't going to say anything to dispute that, which is why I didn't choose Vince Young in the first place.
This entire thread has become meaningless and unnecessary theatrics, arranged by one and only one person.
Support that if you like but it's juvenile and insulting to the adults around here.
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It takes two to tango. And while neither of us hit the dance floor when the song began, we're stepping and spinning together now, aren't we!??!
It's all in good fun and ultimately meaningless.
The funny part is if I actually did use these teams and produced them for my WN game, I'd have multiple QBs, so the point would be moot.
I lump VY in with Roger Staubach as guys who were really good, but ultimately way overrated. Scrambling shouldn't be your #1 attribute as an all-time great QB, sorry. Just my opinion, of course, but it is what it is, lol.
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QB - Vince Young, Texas
RB - Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma
RB - Reggie Bush, USC
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
TE/WR - Dallas Clark, Iowa
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C - Maurkice Pouncey, Florida
DE - Terrell Suggs, Arizona St.
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S - Sean Taylor, Miami
K -
P - Kevin Huber, Cincinnati
RET - Ted Ginn, JR, OSU
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I think the 2000s are rare in that there's several great safeties you can just automatically throw in there. I'd opine that in most decades, those lockdown CBs come to mind first.
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Like I said, I'm not taking sides.
Other than they must both suck, because they both sucked in the NFL :57:
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Like I said, I'm not taking sides.
Other than they must both suck, because they both sucked in the NFL :57:
Yeah sure, like I said, support that if you like. That's on you.
But just for reference, Vince Young went to two pro bowls. Tim Tebow went to... checks notes... zero.
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DON'T CLICK THE BAIT :91:
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Lulz
(https://i.imgur.com/GEvwsjT.png)
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Can't say I feel strongly about the QB but clearly these two are emblematic of the read option decade.
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Vince Young is the Titans beat QB this side of Ruan Tannehill.
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Vince Young is the Titans beat QB this side of Ruan Tannehill.
Jeff Fisher is an offensive genius.
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...but let's stay on-topic here.
KAEDING OR NUGENT?!?!
The homer in me wants Nate Kaeding. One of the all time great FG kickers. But Nugent had his moments too. Its a tough call.
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Apparently, it should be some horny Nebraskan...
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his senior season was 2010 - DQed
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his senior season was 2010 - DQed
Only if that was his biggest year. We can't just ignore all the guys whose careers were at the tail-end of one decade and the start of another.
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What else should it be based on? Spectacular performances on the biggest stages. Yeah, sure, that's a hallmark of mediocrity.
Our Thanksgiving get-together is basically tomorrow, so oddly I'm spending some time catching up here, while simultaneously hoping all the rest of you don't read this because you have better things going on.
Anyway, what I would say to brad, OAM, and even this comment, is that the idea that VY is only "VY" in our minds because of two Rose Bowls, is--as one frisky Florida fan puts it--simply not supported by the facts.
I didn't put VY in the list either because I felt less strongly and less certain about him than the names I offered. This speaks to how good I think TT was. Over an entire career, I think I would go with Tebow. But there's no guidelines on this thing as to whether one spectacular season or an entire career should be favored. And my rebuttal to some of the comments here is that VY's 2005 season was phenomenal. For everybody who thinks he magically appeared for the Rose Bowl out of nowhere, I don't know what to tell you, except that you certainly weren't watching Texas games in 2005.
I was, and I saw a couple of them in person. VY was a 3000+ passer in 2005. And he rushed for 1050 yards to boot. I hate to tell people this, but he didn't do all that in the Rose Bowl (although you'd be forgiven for thinking he did). That's a stellar season, particularly for 2005. He set a Texas school record for efficiency against Colorado that year--which I happened to be there for--by completing something like 19/21 passes. His comeback effort against Oklahoma State where he put his listless team on his back and willed them to victory was Herculean. And yes, doing the same thing against USC in the Rose Bowl was one of the best individual game efforts I've seen. The list goes on, and there really wasn't a game that year where he wasn't proving he was a special player.
But the thing that really disappoints me about OAM's "analysis"--and he knows better than this--is that football is not reducible to simple numbers. I don't actually give much of a crap about what Tebow's numbers were vs. Young's numbers. They played on different teams with different strengths and complementary players, against very different opponents. Stats are a great place to start. They'll lie to you almost always without some qualitative analysis, and I say that as a number nerd with a Master's degree in statistics. I watched both of them play. They both had great skill sets that served their teams extremely well, and they used those skills consistently. Tebow, probably over a bigger portion of his career than Vince's singular year, but that's exactly my dilemma: am I picking the better career, or the player at a given point in time? Because if I had to pick a career, I probably lean Tebow. But if I had to pick a guy out of the time-stream with my magic time-scoop to quarterback my team, I'm probably taking 2005 VY.
None of this is an argument against Tebow. I just fail to see how people think it's an argument for him, either, or that VY is somehow strictly a product of a lone Rose Bowl, or two. Sorry those people missed all Texas' games in 2005. They missed a lot. OAM says he doesn't care, but clearly thinks the answer is Tebow. Fine. Just don't act like the "facts" obviously side with that opinion.
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Fair 'nuff, Mike. Like I said, I have no dog in this fight. I was more interested in what was happening with Kyle Orton and Curtis Painter at the time.
Honestly, I always found Tebow to be annoying, so I'm not exactly stanning for him.
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Maybe after this, do one that excludes the helmets.
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Maybe after this, do one that excludes the helmets.
Seems dangerous
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(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/oLoAAOSwLB1jgR0h/s-l1600.jpg)
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None of this is an argument against Tebow. I just fail to see how people think it's an argument for him, either, or that VY is somehow strictly a product of a lone Rose Bowl, or two. Sorry those people missed all Texas' games in 2005. They missed a lot. OAM says he doesn't care, but clearly thinks the answer is Tebow. Fine. Just don't act like the "facts" obviously side with that opinion.
You're missing something here - it's not that I think VY was only good for 2 RBs, it's that he's given his halo based on those games. The average fan either doesn't know his stats or sees them and obviously notices that they're great, but that those game s were special.
I say he's overrated due to having 1 amazing RB. There's a reason for that. His game vs UM got Texas the win, and sure, as usual, his scrambling saved the day. But he's a QB and his passing was ho-hum. I'm not going to post all the stats here, but there are better arguments for VY than what's out there.
In that 05 season, after being utterly destroyed by great OU teams the previous 2 years, what turned out to be an 8-4 OU squad limited his scrambling, so he hit big passes and threw 3 TDs with 0 INTs.
The comeback vs OKST is good and bad....VY helped Texas get down 28-9 just as much as he helped them come back, right? And his QBing didn't really do it, it was OKST giving up 367 yards rushing. Most of it was by VY himself, and good on him, but again, his scrambling saved the day.
And my focus on stats is one way of rephrasing how I'd describe it as what actually happened on the field. VY's great 2005 included "only" 26 TD passes. Okay, but if we look at it, Texas seemed to prefer running the ball close the end zone, as they had 4 players with 10+ rushing TDs, and other with 8. That context helps explain the lack of passing TDs.
Stats also include the ho-hum and the bad. VY was basically garbage until game 7 of 2004. An athlete playing QB, in the worst way.
I don't say that to disparage him, but again, based on what actually happened on the field, that's what the reality is.
So when someone picks VY, they're saying his season and a half of great play, acknowledging that scrambling was always his greatest strength at QB, was better than 3+ years of unprecedented play from TT. The 55-TD season, the 26-2 final 2 years, the contributions as a FR, etc.
Huh?
If Sam Bradford wasn't an exact contemporary of TT, Tebow would have finished his career with the all-time best passer rating. Ever. That gets brushed under the rug because of the system or the throwing motion, but we have to pretend that VY was an actual QB playing QB?
I've tried to get this thread back on track multiple times, but other people keep bringing it back to this. And no one wants to acknowledge that I didn't say a peep until the QB position was filled. This is a zero-stakes exercise, lol. But here we are.
To pick VY over TT, you have to just say "I think he was better," because nothing measurable on the field supports it. He was a great runner. Lots of yards. Great yards per rush. But he's a QB. And I don't care of TT have a club foot or threw the ball like Uncle Leo, he had the 2nd-best passing career ever. And 57 rushing TDs. Less yards than VY. Less ypc average.
But 88 TD passes with 16 INTs vs a much MUCH tougher schedule dwarfs anything you can say for VY. And his % of each dwarf VY's as well.
Shit, this is like the "SEC isn't better than the Big Ten" argument from the past 15 years. Even when every conceivable measure favors one side, a simple "nuh uh" seems to suffice as rebuttal.
I respect the opinion of the board, I simply disagree. Duh. No shit, Sherlock. But at least my opinion is based on something other than "I think he was better." That's all I'm saying.
NOW BACK TO YOUR REGULARLY-SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING, PLEASE.
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Maybe after this, do one that excludes the helmets.
Feel free, don't cost nothin'.
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That's where I'd put the Jerry Rices and Randy Mosses. Is Randy Moss an all-time great? Sure, but putting up video game numbers vs Army and Akron didn't prove it.
Damn, the 90s WRs on a mid-major all-decade team......Moss and Tory Edwards. Whooo boy!
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Young had a big road win over my Buckeyes..
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Young had a big road win over my Buckeyes..
No, he didn't. 2 INTs and 3.8 yp carry.
Texas' defense did.
Texas' defense had a big road win over OSU.
255 total yds allowed. Forced 5 FGs.
I love how I'll get grief for being precise. This is 100% going to be seen as slanted sour grapes. Not an accurate portrayal of what actually happened. Nope. Stupid idea. lol
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No, he didn't. 2 INTs and 3.8 yp carry.
Texas' defense did.
Texas' defense had a big road win over OSU.
255 total yds allowed. Forced 5 FGs.
I love how I'll get grief for being precise. This is 100% going to be seen as slanted sour grapes. Not an accurate portrayal of what actually happened. Nope. Stupid idea. lol
Well ok, but then Tebow didn't win the national championship game in 2008, his defense did. So if we are comparing championship play, VY over Tebow by ten thousand miles.
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Of course the defense did. OU was scoring 60+ points a game for like 6 straight games and UF held them to 14. Who said otherwise?
You focus on the sample size of 1 and I'll focus on the sample size of 35-40 games. All day long. TT doesn't need the big, shiny one-game sample. VY does.
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Of course the defense did. OU was scoring 60+ points a game for like 6 straight games and UF held them to 14. Who said otherwise?
You focus on the sample size of 1 and I'll focus on the sample size of 35-40 games. All day long. TT doesn't need the big, shiny one-game sample. VY does.
But like you have said, you have to give the most points to the guy who delivers the most in the biggest spots against the best teams. Like Randy Moss in that effect. The rest of the careers look like mostly a wash.
The three year v. four year seems like a red herring, because Tebow wasn't much of a pro prospect after his junior year.
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Your post reads like you haven't read any of mine.
I mean WOW.
When did I say that?
What big game did Randy Moss play in college?
What in the hell does being a pro prospect have to do with anything in this entire thread?!?
(https://i.imgur.com/xmJhyPY.jpeg)
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Your post reads like you haven't read any of mine.
I mean WOW.
When did I say that?
What big game did Randy Moss play in college?
What in the hell does being a pro prospect have to do with anything in this entire thread?!?
(https://i.imgur.com/xmJhyPY.jpeg)
The biggest game is the national championship game, so like judging Randy Moss for his lack of play in the big games, you also have to judge Tebow and Young based on their play in the biggest game. That is your logic. So, Young is clearly better than Tebow in that regard. There is no argument otherwise.
Further, the pro is important because you want to ding Vince Young for leaving college early because he was a better pro prospect than Tim Tebow. It's sort of the reverse. Tebow was not good enough for the NFL, which led to him having a longer and according to you better college career. But it's sort of dinging Young for being better than Tebow as a way to show Tebow was better. That position doesn't make much sense, but it is what you are claiming. Which is why your position isn't that great.
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How have I dinged VY for leaving early? I'm worried we're very barely speaking the same language.
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How have I dinged VY for leaving early? I'm worried we're very barely speaking the same language.
"So when someone picks VY, they're saying his season and a half of great play, acknowledging that scrambling was always his greatest strength at QB, was better than 3+ years of unprecedented play from TT."
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So we're to ignore volume?
For this debate on these players, while what you quoted should matter, you can remove TT's final season if you want. Or his first. To make it more "fair."
I don't view it as dinging VY because of what TT did his first year as a starter. You know, won the Heisman. 55 total TDs.
Again, I care mostly with what actually happened. Am I dinging Barry Sanders for having started 1 season? For an all-time ranking or all-decade team....I guess? Why was he a backup if he was that good (I know, I know, Thurman Thomas :ecomcity:)?
VY was not as efficient (good?), not as productive, and his biggest strength was scrambling. His peak in a 1-game sample was higher than TT's. Fantastic.
I guess RB Tony Sands of KU was better than Barry Sanders, then. That's where we end up with holding a 1-game peak as the end-all, be-all.
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So we're to ignore volume?
For this debate on these players, while what you quoted should matter, you can remove TT's final season if you want. Or his first. To make it more "fair."
I don't view it as dinging VY because of what TT did his first year as a starter. You know, won the Heisman. 55 total TDs.
Again, I care mostly with what actually happened. Am I dinging Barry Sanders for having started 1 season? For an all-time ranking or all-decade team....I guess? Why was he a backup if he was that good (I know, I know, Thurman Thomas :ecomcity:)?
VY was not as efficient (good?), not as productive, and his biggest strength was scrambling. His peak in a 1-game sample was higher than TT's. Fantastic.
I guess RB Tony Sands of KU was better than Barry Sanders, then. That's where we end up with holding a 1-game peak as the end-all, be-all.
You don't have to ignore volume, but there is little reason to think that Young would have been bad had he returned for his senior year, and as you say we are measuring greatness, not goodness. Both these guys were great. Tebow was had better passing stats. He was not as good a runner as Vince Young. Which matters, because both of these guys flourished in the read option era where a QB running the ball was a hell of an important thing. It wasn't "scrambling."
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But it 'twas. VY had A TON of called passing plays where the ball never left his hand.
First guy wasn't there, he's taking off.
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The real victims of this thread are Sam Bradford and Matt Leinart.
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oh well
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But it 'twas. VY had A TON of called passing plays where the ball never left his hand.
First guy wasn't there, he's taking off.
that TON didn't count
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That would be useful data. Scramble %.
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useful for Whoa Nellie??
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useful for Whoa Nellie??
Yeah, but that would be super limited to just recent seasons. I have a dynamic in WN, IDing QBs who have scrambling/sack avoidance, but it's very basic.
I'd like to make it a little more precise, but that requires updating the QBs of every team ordered going forward.
But it would be nice to differentiate guys who simply scrambled enough to break even vs guys who actively gained a lot of yardage scrambling, like VY.
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and Mike Vick
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You're missing something here - it's not that I think VY was only good for 2 RBs, it's that he's given his halo based on those games. The average fan either doesn't know his stats or sees them and obviously notices that they're great, but that those game s were special.
I say he's overrated due to having 1 amazing RB. There's a reason for that. His game vs UM got Texas the win, and sure, as usual, his scrambling saved the day. But he's a QB and his passing was ho-hum. I'm not going to post all the stats here, but there are better arguments for VY than what's out there.
In that 05 season, after being utterly destroyed by great OU teams the previous 2 years, what turned out to be an 8-4 OU squad limited his scrambling, so he hit big passes and threw 3 TDs with 0 INTs.
The comeback vs OKST is good and bad....VY helped Texas get down 28-9 just as much as he helped them come back, right? And his QBing didn't really do it, it was OKST giving up 367 yards rushing. Most of it was by VY himself, and good on him, but again, his scrambling saved the day.
And my focus on stats is one way of rephrasing how I'd describe it as what actually happened on the field. VY's great 2005 included "only" 26 TD passes. Okay, but if we look at it, Texas seemed to prefer running the ball close the end zone, as they had 4 players with 10+ rushing TDs, and other with 8. That context helps explain the lack of passing TDs.
Stats also include the ho-hum and the bad. VY was basically garbage until game 7 of 2004. An athlete playing QB, in the worst way.
I don't say that to disparage him, but again, based on what actually happened on the field, that's what the reality is.
So when someone picks VY, they're saying his season and a half of great play, acknowledging that scrambling was always his greatest strength at QB, was better than 3+ years of unprecedented play from TT. The 55-TD season, the 26-2 final 2 years, the contributions as a FR, etc.
Huh?
If Sam Bradford wasn't an exact contemporary of TT, Tebow would have finished his career with the all-time best passer rating. Ever. That gets brushed under the rug because of the system or the throwing motion, but we have to pretend that VY was an actual QB playing QB?
I've tried to get this thread back on track multiple times, but other people keep bringing it back to this. And no one wants to acknowledge that I didn't say a peep until the QB position was filled. This is a zero-stakes exercise, lol. But here we are.
To pick VY over TT, you have to just say "I think he was better," because nothing measurable on the field supports it. He was a great runner. Lots of yards. Great yards per rush. But he's a QB. And I don't care of TT have a club foot or threw the ball like Uncle Leo, he had the 2nd-best passing career ever. And 57 rushing TDs. Less yards than VY. Less ypc average.
But 88 TD passes with 16 INTs vs a much MUCH tougher schedule dwarfs anything you can say for VY. And his % of each dwarf VY's as well.
Shit, this is like the "SEC isn't better than the Big Ten" argument from the past 15 years. Even when every conceivable measure favors one side, a simple "nuh uh" seems to suffice as rebuttal.
I respect the opinion of the board, I simply disagree. Duh. No shit, Sherlock. But at least my opinion is based on something other than "I think he was better." That's all I'm saying.
NOW BACK TO YOUR REGULARLY-SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING, PLEASE.
It seems you have no idea how much you've agreed with me here.
And where you disagree, you either missed my point entirely, still aren't seeing the picture, or are just being deliberately obtuse. Next time you might include rules about if we're picking careers or a player at a specific point in time. This was my point, which you longwindedly....agreed with?
But, I don't care to try to get you to understand any more than you already do.
As you said, back to the regularly scheduled programming.
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Next time you might include rules about if we're picking careers or a player at a specific point in time.
There aren't any rules. I just want help doing a thing. I find all of this debate odd, since I deliberately didn't choose the QB for this team. It's not MY team, it's the board's team. VY is the QB. Then and only then, I commented on it.
lol
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and Mike Vick
and Pat White
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I could comment about Tommie Frazier, but I won't/didn't
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QB - Vince Young, Texas
RB - Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma
RB - Reggie Bush, USC
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
TE/WR - Dallas Clark, Iowa
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C - Maurkice Pouncey, Florida
DE - Terrell Suggs, Arizona St.
DE -
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S - Sean Taylor, Miami
K - Nate Kaeding, Iowa
P - Kevin Huber, Cincinnati
RET - Ted Ginn, JR, OSU
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QB - Vince Young, Texas
RB - Adrian Peterson, Oklahoma
RB - Reggie Bush, USC
WR - Larry Fitzgerald, Pitt
WR - Calvin Johnson, Ga Tech
TE/WR - Dallas Clark, Iowa
T - Joe Thomas, UW
T - Robert Gallery, Iowa
G -
G -
C - Maurkice Pouncey, Florida
DE - Terrell Suggs, Arizona St.
DE - David Pollack, Georgia
DT - Ndamukong Suh, Nebraska
DT - Glenn Dorsey, LSU
LB - Clay Matthews, USC
LB - Brandon Spikes, UF
LB - James Laurinaitis, OSU
CB -
CB -
S - Eric Berry, Tennessee
S - Sean Taylor, Miami
K - Nate Kaeding, Iowa
P - Kevin Huber, Cincinnati
RET - Ted Ginn, JR, OSU
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I apologize, I knew this existed and never linked it for any of these.
CFReference has decade-by-decade pages of the consensus AA teams. Here's 2000-2009
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/awards/all-america-2000-2009.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/awards/all-america-2000-2009.html)
Might help.
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I apologize, I knew this existed and never linked it for any of these.
CFReference has decade-by-decade pages of the consensus AA teams. Here's 2000-2009
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/awards/all-america-2000-2009.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/awards/all-america-2000-2009.html)
Might help.
nah,
(https://i.imgur.com/sDoN6QZ.png)
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Helluva returner in '87!!!
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Can't say that about Walker or Jackson
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They weren't one-hit wonders.
I've got to... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZVpR3Pk-r8)
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I actually don't remember Larry Fitzgerald in college. Not sure how much I saw him play, if any. I saw him a ton in NFL games over the years, which is odd, since I never watched the NFL very much in his playing days.
Cornerbacks are like wide receivers.....there were so many good ones that I would find any decisions I forced myself to make arbitrary and lacking the appropriate conviction I'd rather have for a list like this.
That sports-reference.com list isn't too helpful there because it doesn't separate CB and S, and most of the DBs listed that I recognize are safeties. The ones I know were CBs I probably wouldn't give a first slot to on an all-decade team.
I would've thought Patrick Peterson was a consensus AA in 2009, but apparently not. Maybe it took people til his junior year to notice him. Clamping down Julio Jones for two straight years in '08 and '09 must not have done the trick.
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If it helps speed things up, we could move Robert Gallery from OT to guard, then put Jake Long in at tackle.
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I fought the urge to put Andrew Whitworth in at OT, because I really think I'm factoring in his NFL career. I don't mean to, but it's all one big blur in my mind with him anymore. I'm not at all sure he was one of the best two college tackles of the decade. Likely the best we had in that time span, but best across all teams? That's a tall order, and unlikely (though I get that it's unlikely for any player to be the "best," yet someone has to be).
It's harder than my conscious mind wants to admit, to disassociate what I know about players as pros from what I knew about them as college players.
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If it helps speed things up, we could move Robert Gallery from OT to guard, then put Jake Long in at tackle.
no NFL influences allowed!
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Yeah, if we could move tackles to guard, I would have done it with Arkansas' Shawn Andrews. Dude was like 360 and MEAN. I bet if you talked about his mama and jumped out of the way, he could personally remove a big tree stump.
A guard I would put in is Gurode from CU.
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I actually don't remember Larry Fitzgerald in college. Not sure how much I saw him play, if any.
This astounds me, as he was obsessed upon by the talking heads and highlight shows.
Unrelated:
Why I HATE HATE HATE NFL busts sort of being all they're known for (by and large) is that it's nuts MSU's Charles Rogers isn't on this team (there's 30 right answers at WR, I'm sure, but still). Dude was HIM (as the kids say).
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Yeah. I recall USC had Dwayne Jarrett and another guy or two who didn't amount to much in the pros. But they were really good college WRs. Maybe not All-Decade Team good, but great nonetheless. It feels to me like in retrospect they get downgraded because they didn't have the proper tools for the NFL.
There's also the reverse sometimes. Some guys were okay college players but blossomed in the league.
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Mike Williams at USC was good.
I hate this guy but Michael Crabtree at Texas Tech was pretty good too.
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Mike Williams at USC was good.
I hate this guy but Michael Crabtree at Texas Tech was pretty good too.
Mike Williams, iirc, was the guy who tried to enter the NFL before 3 years had gone by post-high school. Seems like he maybe even sued the NFL over the age-restriction, or something like that. It didn't work out, but his amateur status was ruined and he couldn't play the next year for USC either. So he wound up sitting out of football a year. Always made me wonder if he'd have been a better pro if he hadn't been out of the game for a year.
Crabtree was good, but it seemed like a lot of people dismissed him in college as a "system" guy....whatever that meant. Every play ever has played in some kind of system. He played in Leach's Air Raid, but, I mean, there are tons of NFL teams that employ Air Raid concepts. And, turns out, he was pretty good in the NFL too.
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Mike Williams at USC was good.
I hate this guy but Michael Crabtree at Texas Tech was pretty good too.
yes sir
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Here's some AA WRs from 2000-2009 who didn't pan out in the pros:
Snoop Minnis, FSU
Jabar Gaffney, Florida
Josh Reed, LSU
Charles Rogers, MSU
Reggie Williams, Wash
Rashaun Woods, OKST
Braylon Edwards, UM
Mike Haas, ORST
Jordan Shipley, Texas
Go back to the late 2000s and who was putting money on KSU's Jordy Nelson being one of the best of the next decade in the NFL?!? Insane. Utter coin toss, I swear.
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Crabtree was a man child in college, including his Freshman year.
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Go back to the late 2000s and who was putting money on KSU's Jordy Nelson being one of the best of the next decade in the NFL?!? Insane. Utter coin toss, I swear.
Jordy grew up in Manhattan.........
Nelson began his college career as a walk-on at Kansas State and took his redshirt year as a member of the Wildcats' 2003 Big 12 Championship team.
For 2004, Nelson was set to play defensive back, but during spring practice following his first year, Snyder moved him to the wide receiver position. He did not record any meaningful statistics in the Wildcats' 4–7 season in 2004.