CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Four => Big Ten => Topic started by: Hawkinole on August 16, 2025, 06:12:01 PM
-
I was musing today about Iowa’s misfortune of having to play at Ohio State again in 2024—marking the second consecutive matchup in Columbus. Curious whether this reflected a broader scheduling imbalance, I turned to MCubed to examine whether the Big Ten has historically operated as a home-and-home conference. The answer, it turns out, is no.
Iowa has faced Michigan 61 times, with 35 games played in Ann Arbor and only 26 in Iowa City.
Against Ohio State, the disparity is even greater: 67 total matchups, with 41 in Columbus and just 26 In Iowa City.
Iowa's only other Big Ten opponent with a home-away gap exceeding four games is Northwestern. Iowa has hosted Northwestern 46 times, while traveling to Evanston or Chicago 40 times.
When the College Football Data Warehouse website was up, I recall Iowa played Chicago about 4x more in Chicago than in Iowa City.
I am curious if Michigan and Ohio State have similar home and away scheduling advantages with other Big Ten schools, too.
-
For Ohio State I used Stassen from 1913-2023.
I started with 1913 because that was Ohio State's first year in the league and stopped with 2023 because they haven't updated to include 2024.
- 100 games against Michigan: 49 H, 51 A
- 92 Illinois: 46 H, 44 A, 2 N
- 87 Indiana: 57 H, 30 A
- 78 Wisconsin: 38 H, 37 A, 3 N
- 75 Northwestern: 37 H, 35 A, 3 N
- 65 Iowa: 39 H, 26 A
- 56 Purdue: 32 H, 23 A, 1 N
- 53 Minnesota: 27 H, 26 A
- 51 Michigan State: 26 H, 24 A, 1 N
-
Northwestern played a few OSU home games in the Browns stadium, back when they were just beyond dreadful. So that explains the numbers there.
-
Northwestern played a few OSU home games in the Browns stadium, back when they were just beyond dreadful. So that explains the numbers there.
When who was dreadful, the Browns, or Northwestern?
-
Microsoft Copilot says that in the 1950s and 1960s Big Ten teams shared 50% of their gate receipts directly with visiting conference teams. At some point this evolved, and during the 2000s Big Ten teams share 35% of gate receipts into a pool for the entire conference. I am not sure this information is accurate, but it would explain why conference schools' with few gate receipts would be okay playing more road games at Ohio State and Michigan, than home games.
The stated rationale is, "This system helps maintain competitive balance and reflects the Big Ten’s long-standing philosophy of conference-first economics. It’s one of the few leagues that still does this—most others let schools keep all gate revenue."
Frankly, from a fan's standpoint, I prefer home-and-home.
-
this shouldn't surprise anyone
the conference has been taking care of the big 2 forever and it doesn't appear it's gonna change anytime soon
-
When who was dreadful, the Browns, or Northwestern?
Both
-
Both
I only gave two choices, and you chose both. I presumed it wasn't the Buckeyes.
-
Wouldn't the "conference" be interested in having other teams being competitive on a near annual basis? Wouldn't interest be greater if on occasion Minnesota won, or PSU, or Nebraska, or Purdue (spitballin'). Since say 1970, how often has another team won the Big Ten (Rose Bowl appearances would be OK)? Is that good or bad?
-
history has spoken
-
From 1968 through 1980, only OSU or M went to the Rose Bowl.
-
I opine more parity would be fiscally better.
-
Headquarters is not in agreement.
-
I think the "SEC model" is better, entering the season there are 6-7 fan bases with realistic hopes of winning the conference, or at least making the CG. And programs that aren't in that group could be in the future, have been in the past.
-
fOregon won the B1G last year.
Does anyone care?
-
Oregon fans likely cared. Fans are more enthused when they can aspire to winning the conference, IMHO.
It maybe isn't as bad in the B1G as history could suggest, as fan bases at Oregon and PSU can realistically aspire to winning the conference, along with OSU/UM. USC at least has some historical cred along with Nebraska, and one could see teams like Iowa/Minn/Ill/Ind creeping into the mix these days.
-
Winning the B1G now, more than ever, is all about schedule.
Compare and contrast:
(https://i.imgur.com/EHESlJq.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/uREbqeA.png)
-
fOregon won the B1G last year.
Does anyone care?
I honestly didn't remember who won the B1G last year. I knew it wasn't tOSU or Michigan but I thought it was Indiana or Illinois or some surprise team like that.
-
Oregon beat PSU in the B1G CCG last year. Not that anyone cares.
-
I only gave two choices, and you chose both. I presumed it wasn't the Buckeyes.
The Buckeyes weren't great at the time but they were far from dreadful. There is a bit of a misstatement in here because @Brutus Buckeye (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=31) said that Northwestern played "a few" OSU home games in the Browns stadium" but it was actually only one. The other two neutral site games between tOSU and Northwestern were the 2018 and 2020 B1G Championship Games in Indianapolis.
The one tOSU/NU neutral site regular season game was on October 19, 1991 in Cleveland. That was during their dreadful phase and right before they finally improved. Northwestern had back-to-back winning seasons in 1970 and 1971 but unfortunately for them that was before the league allowed non-champions to play in bowls. Also, those good seasons were the exception for them, not the rule. Prior to going 6-4 in 1970 they had six consecutive losing seasons from 1964-1969. After the winning seasons in 1970 and 1971 they went 23 seasons (1972-1994) without a winning record. During that time they were winless in:
- 1978 0-10-1
- 1980 0-11
- 1981 0-11
- 1989 0-11
In the six seasons from 1976-1981 they won three games, 3-62-1.
For their part, the Buckeyes were good but not great at that time. 1991 was the fifth consecutive season of four or more losses for the Buckeyes. For most programs that wouldn't be all that unusual but for Ohio State I'm nearly certain that the five seasons from 1987-1991 is the only such streak in program history or at least since WWI.
-
Oregon beat PSU in the B1G CCG last year. Not that anyone cares.
I truly had no idea. The only CCG I watched was the one with my team in it. Pretty much the same for the playoffs. I'm really losing interest, I'm sad to say. Or maybe, not even that sad to say.
-
Winning the B1G now, more than ever, is all about schedule.
I've been banging this drum since the expansion to 18. @Mdot21 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1595) LOVES to point out that Ohio State finished 4th in the B1G last year and that is fair, I'd do the same thing if the roles were reversed but it is also incredibly misleading. Ohio State played the other three top-4 teams with two of those games being on the road and ended up with:
- A road loss by a single point
- A solid road win
- A blowout home win
The other three, the ONLY top-4 game for each of them was when they had to play Ohio State.
Wisconsin's schedule is brutal this year. I don't know if Fickell is the right guy in Madison but it would be unfair to him to not take SoS into account when evaluating his performance at the end of this year.
-
I often forget who won the SEC last year.
-
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/5d/a1/e6/5da1e66a8a47897690a8f917ddee13ec.gif)
-
I've been banging this drum since the expansion to 18. @Mdot21 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1595) LOVES to point out that Ohio State finished 4th in the B1G last year and that is fair, I'd do the same thing if the roles were reversed but it is also incredibly misleading. Ohio State played the other three top-4 teams with two of those games being on the road and ended up with:
- A road loss by a single point
- A solid road win
- A blowout home win
The other three, the ONLY top-4 game for each of them was when they had to play Ohio State.
Wisconsin's schedule is brutal this year. I don't know if Fickell is the right guy in Madison but it would be unfair to him to not take SoS into account when evaluating his performance at the end of this year.
I agree SoS should be taken into account in evaluating Fickell's job performance. Nevertheless, I have a feeling Luke Fickell will be gone, at or before the end of the season. I could see Wisconsin having a 4-win / 8-loss season.
-
fOregon won the B1G last year.
Does anyone care?
I might care more if my team was in the running
when scratching for 9th or 10th place........... it's tough to care too much about the top
-
Season ticket demand will be through the roof
https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1957580647528075435?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1957580647528075435%7Ctwgr%5E34f328fac8dd9240990d9fffd70fd2a4a7597d85%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmichiganstate.boards.net%2Fthread%2F3716%2Ftofficial-college-football-season-thread
-
Winning the B1G now, more than ever, is all about schedule.
Compare and contrast:
(https://i.imgur.com/EHESlJq.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/uREbqeA.png)
:o
Wisconsin has to play Illinois, while Illinois gets to play Wisconsin.
That hardly seems fair.
:098:
-
I get the impression that before WW2, conference scheduling was done more like non-conference scheduling is done now. Schools today prefer to do an equal non-conference home and home series with schools with roughly equal gate attendance. One of the key reasons Ohio St is playing Texas is because both schools draw roughly equal crowds.
I guess another factor is academic and cultural fit. Big Ten schools in the past seemed to like scheduling home and home with Pac schools and certain independents because they were considered similar academic and cultural institutions. Schools in the south were not a cultural fit for Big Ten schools so they rarely played.. Finally it helps if your football team is at a similar level competively.
Throw it all together, I guess it can help explain why Ohio St and Michigan would still schedule home and home with old Pac schools that only draw 50k fans.
-
Season ticket demand will be through the roof
Cig still thinks he's at JMU I guess.
-
Season ticket demand will be through the roof
https://twitter.com/Brett_McMurphy/status/1957580647528075435?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1957580647528075435%7Ctwgr%5E34f328fac8dd9240990d9fffd70fd2a4a7597d85%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmichiganstate.boards.net%2Fthread%2F3716%2Ftofficial-college-football-season-thread
most have listened to Hayden Fry or his disciple Wild Bill Snyder
-
I'm reminded of old SEC scheduling which was ... variable. Georgia Tech didn't play either Mississippi team for decades, Bobby Dodd just wouldn't, and he could do that.
-
yup, a large factor in scheduling games is as simple as a relationship between athletic department administrators and/or coaches
-
most have listened to Hayden Fry or his disciple Wild Bill Snyder
Although it is true that Hayden Fry did push to change Iowa's scheduling philosophy to schedule more cupcakes, it was not as bad some remember. He actually had many seasons under the old 11-game schedules where Iowa would still play 2 power conference schools along with 8 conference games.
-
I remember a quote from Coach Fry, "never schedule a loss"
or maybe it was Bill Snyder that said he learned that from Hayden
-
I'm reminded of old SEC scheduling which was ... variable. Georgia Tech didn't play either Mississippi team for decades, Bobby Dodd just wouldn't, and he could do that.
When I've done these season sims using old season schedules, I was surprised at how the SEC didn't really seem like a conference, as much as a loose scheduling agreement. Probably why SEC fans scoff at Big Ten fans caring about the Rose Bowl. There were years where teams would play 2 or 3 more conference games than other teams in the SEC. And like you said, you could just not play some schools.
-
Yes, the SEC was a very loose "confederation" back in the day, with no meaning "league office". I know UGA would schedule 6 conference games (out of ten) and then mostly near pastries to be assured of a bowl game at maybe 8-2 or even 7-3. They played South Carolina and Clemson a lot in the 60s and 70s when neither was very good.
You don't see Ole Miss or MiSU on their schedule much at all back then, or LSU or even Tennessee. They played Alabama often then and lost badly.
-
Although it is true that Hayden Fry did push to change Iowa's scheduling philosophy to schedule more cupcakes, it was not as bad some remember. He actually had many seasons under the old 11-game schedules where Iowa would still play 2 power conference schools along with 8 conference games.
I am doing this for my own curiosity, not to prove a point. I looked up Hayden Fry's non conference schedules at Iowa
1979. @Oklahoma (Big8), Neb(Big8), Iowa St(Big8)
1980. @Neb(Big8), Iowa St(Big8), Arizona(Pac10)
1981 Neb(Big8), @Iowa St(Big8), UCLA(Pac10)
1982 @Neb(Big8), Iowa St(Big8), @Arizona(Pac10)
1983 @Penn St(Indy), @Iowa St(Big8), 9 conference games
1984 Iowa St(Big8), Penn St(Indy), @Hawaii(WAC), 9 conference games
1985 Drake(MVC), NIU(MAC), @Iowa St(Big8)
1986 Iowa St(Big8), NIU(MAC), UTEP(WAC)
1987 Tennesse(SEC)-Neutral site, @Arizona(Pac10), @Iowa St(Big8), Kansas St(Big8)
1988. @Hawaii(WAC), @Kansas St(Big8), Colorodo(Big8), Iowa St(Big8)
1989 Oregon(Pac10), @Iowa St(Big8), Tulsa(IND)
1990 Cincinnati (IND), Iowa St(Big8), @Miami-florida(IND)
1991 Hawaii(WAC), @Iowa St(Big8), NIU(IND)
1992 NCSU(ACC)-neutral site, Miami-Florida(Big East), Iowa St(Big8), @Colorado(Big8)
1993 Tulsa(IND), @Iowa St(Big8), NIU(Big West)
1994 CMU(MAC), Iowa St(Big8), @Oregon(Pac10)
1995 northern Iowa(I-AA), @Iowa St, NMSU(Big West)
1996 Arizona(Pac10), Iowa St(Big12), @Tulsa(WAC)
1997 northern Iowa(I-AA), @Iowa St(Big12), Tulsa(WAC)
1998 CMU(MAC), Iowa St(Big12), @Arizona(Pac10)
Some thoughts on this later
-
I am doing this for my own curiosity, not to prove a point. I looked up Hayden Fry's non conference schedules at Iowa
1979. @Oklahoma (Big8), Neb(Big8), Iowa St(Big8)
1980. @Neb(Big8), Iowa St(Big8), Arizona(Pac10)
1981 Neb(Big8), @Iowa St(Big8), UCLA(Pac10)
1982 @Neb(Big8), Iowa St(Big8), @Arizona(Pac10)
1983 @Penn St(Indy), @Iowa St(Big8), 9 conference games
1984 Iowa St(Big8), Penn St(Indy), @Hawaii(WAC), 9 conference games
1985 Drake(MVC), NIU(MAC), @Iowa St(Big8)
1986 Iowa St(Big8), NIU(MAC), UTEP(WAC)
1987 Tennesse(SEC)-Neutral site, @Arizona(Pac10), @Iowa St(Big8), Kansas St(Big8)
1988. @Hawaii(WAC), @Kansas St(Big8), Colorodo(Big8), Iowa St(Big8)
1989 Oregon(Pac10), @Iowa St(Big8), Tulsa(IND)
1990 Cincinnati (IND), Iowa St(Big8), @Miami-florida(IND)
1991 Hawaii(WAC), @Iowa St(Big8), NIU(IND)
1992 NCSU(ACC)-neutral site, Miami-Florida(Big East), Iowa St(Big8), @Colorado(Big8)
1993 Tulsa(IND), @Iowa St(Big8), NIU(Big West)
1994 CMU(MAC), Iowa St(Big8), @Oregon(Pac10)
1995 northern Iowa(I-AA), @Iowa St, NMSU(Big West)
1996 Arizona(Pac10), Iowa St(Big12), @Tulsa(WAC)
1997 northern Iowa(I-AA), @Iowa St(Big12), Tulsa(WAC)
1998 CMU(MAC), Iowa St(Big12), @Arizona(Pac10)
Some thoughts on this later
yup, looks like Hayden got his scheduling worked out in 85 - probably had those early 5 seasons already scheduled when he took the job
-
Yes, the SEC was a very loose "confederation" back in the day, with no meaning "league office". I know UGA would schedule 6 conference games (out of ten) and then mostly near pastries to be assured of a bowl game at maybe 8-2 or even 7-3. They played South Carolina and Clemson a lot in the 60s and 70s when neither was very good.
You don't see Ole Miss or MiSU on their schedule much at all back then, or LSU or even Tennessee. They played Alabama often then and lost badly.
so, they played around 4 tough games a season similar to the Big Ten and Big 8
-
Tough is relative of course, if your team is mediocre, a mediocre opponent is tough.
They didn't much play "Charleston Southern" or real pastries back then. Nearly every opponent was "P5" or however many it was.
-
referrin to the top teams, the ones in the running for AP top 5 finishes and hopes for a MNC
Ohio St & Michigan along with Nebraska & Oklahomo were often referred to as the big 2 in their respectively weak conferences
criticized often for playing a soft schedule besides 3 or 4 games
seems Bama could do something similar by merely scheduling lesser than opponents from the stronger SEC and avoiding the stronger programs
-
It also doesn't look bad by modern standards, but scheduling was different back then. IIRC the first time in my life Michigan played a non-power conference team was Miami(Ohio) in 1995. They were at least the best team in the MAC. 2 years later they played EMU, and I remember my dad saying they shouldn't even include that game in the season ticket package.
-
yup, looks like Hayden got his scheduling worked out in 85 - probably had those early 5 seasons already scheduled when he took the job
Yes, things changed in Iowa's schedule starting in 1985. Although the non-conference was not easy every year. 1987 and 1992 were both years where Iowa play 4 non-conference regular season games against P4 equivalent schools.
Although to be fair, both Iowa St and Kansas St were considered awful during that time. But Iowa also played both Miami-Florida and Colorado in one year in 1992, who had both recently won national championships. So Hayden did not mind a tough schedule every now and again, at least until 1992.
I would say Iowa flat out gave up trying to make a tough schedule around 1995, which was the first year they played Northern Iowa. Still, even in Haydens last year in 1998, Iowa played both Arizona and Iowa St in non-conference. So playing 2 P4 equivalent schools in non-conference was still the norm then.
-
The timing of the advent of body bag games correlates with the NCAA losing control of TV rights. Which led to a massive influx of money into the teams and conferences, which led, inexorably, to the state of the game now. It's almost as if turning the sport into a bigger money maker made everyone focus more on how to make more money.
I'm not an NCAA apologist--there was plenty wrong with the way the NCAA did things back then, and the product is probably better now--but these things appear related.
-
I had not realized when real pastries started showing up on schedules OOC. I was scanning the UGA slates in the 60s and the opponents were pretty solid, P5 kinds of teams, they played VMI one year. In 1985, they played Baylor, Clemson, South Carolina, and GaTech. In 1986, Richmond showed up, 1988 William and Mary, 1990 Eastern Carolina, so they edged into one clear pastry a year OOC. Today it's 2 or 3. 1991 they played Cal State Fullerton and Western Carolina, so there it started.
-
yup, before TV money happened they relied on butts in seats and ticket sales for revenue
scheduling cupcakes didn't equate to decent ticket prices or sales
-
TV simultaneously made everything better and also completely ruined college football.
-
TV simultaneously made everything better and also completely ruined college football.
Wow, just wow. I don't even know how to top that. End thread.
-
well, TV money ruined CFB
TV coverage alone would have been OK
I think
-
(https://i.imgur.com/SVrt5G5.png)
-
As far as body-bag games are concerned it is the same story for Ohio State that others have shared here. A good example is to look at the four times that Ohio State played Oklahoma:
Ohio State and Oklahoma had a home-and-home separated by six years in 1977 and 1983 then another in 2016/2017. Curiously the road team is 4-0 in those games with the Buckeyes owning two wins in Norman and the Sooners owning two wins in Columbus. Anyway, here are Ohio State's other OOC games from each of those years:
- 1977: Miami, FL; SMU
- 1983: Oregon - The Buckeyes only had two OOC games because the league was doing a full, 9-game round-robin
- 2016: BGSU, Tulsa
- 2017: Army, UNLV