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The Power Four => Big Ten => Topic started by: Gigem on July 08, 2025, 02:09:17 PM

Title: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Gigem on July 08, 2025, 02:09:17 PM
Edit:  The description got cut off.  It should say:
"Joe, being the primary shareholder of his company, stands to be worth billions of dollars"
Should Joe be allowed to be a billionaire? 

Just a test.  I'd like to see where everybody falls.  If you can think of more options, I will put them down. 
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Mdot21 on July 08, 2025, 02:18:06 PM
there should be a more equitable society and a much lower wealth inequality gap. this is irrespective to the question of should there be billionaires. i think statements such as "billionaires shouldn't exist" is something that frankly simple minded people spout.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MrNubbz on July 08, 2025, 02:23:25 PM
I'm a something "aire" but it's a lot less than a million
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Mdot21 on July 08, 2025, 02:55:40 PM
I'm a something "aire" but it's a lot less than a million
yer a dirty rotten Bucknutaire ya filthy animal
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MikeDeTiger on July 08, 2025, 03:09:18 PM
Regardless of where you fall on the particular example you gave, it says little about the much broader question, "Should billionaires exist?"  You picked a very selective and morally charged example, and it should be noted that most billionaires don't fall into such a category.  
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MrNubbz on July 08, 2025, 03:29:27 PM
yer a dirty rotten Bucknutaire ya filthy animal
My feelings are hurt and I'm not having fun.Speaking of filthy animals the NCAA are sure making the skunk weasels sweat
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Gigem on July 08, 2025, 03:51:07 PM
Regardless of where you fall on the particular example you gave, it says little about the much broader question, "Should billionaires exist?"  You picked a very selective and morally charged example, and it should be noted that most billionaires don't fall into such a category. 
You're absolutely correct, but it can be said that a good amount of billionaires invent something that overall is much better for society than what existed before.  Jeff Bezos, you may not like the man but Amazon is a heck of a product.  Microsoft software is really good.  Tesla electric cars and Space X Rockets are good.  
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: bayareabadger on July 08, 2025, 04:06:45 PM
No

(I don’t actually care, I just felt like being obstinate)
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Mdot21 on July 08, 2025, 04:13:03 PM
they should exist if they are creating entire new and innovative industries and products. think: Elon Musk. or the Google nerds. or Bezos. or Steve Jobs (RIP).

unfortunately the vast majority of newly minted billionaires every year in America on the Forbes list are people who work in private equity, hedge funds, finance- ya know just run of the mill unproductive extractive exploitative entities and industries.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: ELA on July 08, 2025, 04:16:01 PM
I think everyone should be a billionaire.  Except people who put beans in their chili
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Mdot21 on July 08, 2025, 04:17:02 PM
I think everyone should be a billionaire.  Except people who put beans in their chili
hey at the rate inflation has been going- we'll all be billionaires in about 20 years when our money is worthless. 
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: utee94 on July 08, 2025, 04:17:34 PM
I think everyone should be a billionaire.  Except people who put beans in their chili
Amen brutha.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 08, 2025, 04:21:53 PM
Amen brutha.
Billionaires can afford to use whatever meat they want.

Wagyu chili for everyone!
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: ELA on July 08, 2025, 04:26:08 PM
What about chili made from billionaires?  Just to circle back
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 08, 2025, 04:27:27 PM
I ain't eating that.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: jgvol on July 08, 2025, 04:29:05 PM
What about chili made from billionaires?  Just to circle back

(https://i.imgur.com/FO0ZiDe.png)
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 08, 2025, 04:38:47 PM
This isn't really and either/or thing to vote on.

Billionaires are inevitable in our economic system.
Also, becoming a billionaire is impossible while treating your fellow man with even average decency.  

If someone actually came up with a cure for all cancers, they'd absolutely have an ethical duty to provide it to the masses without cost being an obstacle.
But in this example, that person would have such notoriety and acclaim that they'd make a billion dollars anyway (not to mention any small income from each cancer dosage, with the millions of people who would take it across the world).  

Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Mdot21 on July 08, 2025, 04:47:00 PM
Also, becoming a billionaire is impossible while treating your fellow man with even average decency. 
I don't think that's accurate. not every rich person is a piece of shit. a lot of them are. not all of them are.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MrNubbz on July 08, 2025, 05:04:46 PM
I think everyone should be a billionaire.  Except people who put beans in their chili
Ya well I fart in your general direction - so I got that going for me
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 08, 2025, 05:15:28 PM
I was told there would be no tests. 
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 08, 2025, 05:25:03 PM
well, yer retired
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: nwms on July 08, 2025, 05:56:42 PM
a 'no' vote is envy for joe's $, dressed up as fairness.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 08, 2025, 06:10:57 PM
I'm not sure.
say it costs Joe $100 to produce and deliver each dose.
If he charges $200 instead of $10,000, he could easily recoup his millions of investment and have a hundred million or so to live comfortable instead of making a billion

medicaid/medicare could save a few bucks
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: bayareabadger on July 08, 2025, 06:23:37 PM
I think everyone should be a billionaire.  Except people who put beans in their chili
Sell the beans, for billions. 
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 08, 2025, 06:31:39 PM
beans are the filler to increase profit margin!
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Gigem on July 08, 2025, 06:43:57 PM
I'm not sure.
say it costs Joe $100 to produce and deliver each dose.
If he charges $200 instead of $10,000, he could easily recoup his millions of investment and have a hundred million or so to live comfortable instead of making a billion

medicaid/medicare could save a few bucks
Remember, patents expire in 20 years. 
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 08, 2025, 07:01:10 PM
Drug companies have ways of effectively extending patent protection.  I had a short course on that way back.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MrNubbz on July 08, 2025, 07:03:38 PM
Remember, patents expire in 20 years.
Thought you said "patients"
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 08, 2025, 07:17:08 PM
just the few that can't afford the "Process"
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 08, 2025, 07:20:16 PM
We have had, have, and will have billionaires.  We've always had them, at least since ca. 1890 or so.  I don't really get all the resentment.  Some of them do good things with their money.  

Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 08, 2025, 07:39:51 PM
rich folks have been despised since time began

jealousy, envy. abuse of power

Robinhood is a popular guy
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: utee94 on July 08, 2025, 08:56:51 PM
Eh.  I'm more of a Dread Pirate Roberts fan.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 08, 2025, 08:57:54 PM
Ross Ulbricht adopted the name "Dread Pirate Roberts" as his pseudonym while running Silk Road, a dark web marketplace for illegal goods and services.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 08, 2025, 10:42:49 PM
I don't think that's accurate. not every rich person is a piece of shit. a lot of them are. not all of them are.
That's not what I said.  
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 08, 2025, 10:50:18 PM
The lives of billionaires, despite their toys, are far more stressful and busy than any of ours is.  Their day-to-day lives are probably not very fun.  It's not envy.

There comes a point where you have so much money, your life isn't just unlikely to be improved by more, it's impossible to be improved by more.

What is the harm of a 100% wealth tax on monies made/earned/created over some huge number, like $1B?
Once you have that much money, the only way it won't provide for your family for generations is sinking it into a bad business or investing it poorly.  
One can just do any of the 99.999% other jobs/activities/whatever with their lives and not need another penny for life.  

On the end of a bell curve, things become skewed - once you're like 7 SDs from the mean, none of it matters anymore.  
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 08, 2025, 11:43:53 PM
no
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 09, 2025, 02:05:34 AM
Again, so generous with other people’s money. 

Can we make sure less wealthy people spend their money efficiently first before taking money from others?
Again, each end of the bell curve makes the normal function of things irrelevant.
Poor people tend to not spend money responsibly because they rarely have it and just buy more wants while they have it.  They're the ones buying lottery tickets, because while it's a bad bet, it's a smidgen of hope and in their minds it's as likely to hit as a bunch of penny-pinching and hard work is.  Yes, they have good reason to be pessimistic about fiscal responsibility + hard work. 

And we already attempt to direct people on programs like WIC spend wisely, providing monies for only certain food staples and not energy drinks & hot cheetohs. 
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 09, 2025, 02:15:27 AM
I still can't fathom that we just passed a bill that gave the richest 20% a larger % tax break than the lowest 20%.  
THAT is unethical, no matter what you sprinkle in your word salad.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 07:15:31 AM
I still can't fathom that we just passed a bill that gave the richest 20% a larger % tax break than the lowest 20%. 
THAT is unethical, no matter what you sprinkle in your word salad.
I think every tax reduction in history has favored people who pay the most in taxes.

As for billionaires, I couldn't find anything in the bill that favored them.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 07:32:32 AM
and nothing that didn't favor them - but, I didn't look very long or hard
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 07:36:37 AM
No, there was no tax on billionaires, just an extension of the current tax code for folks who earn money.  The alternative would be a tax increase on everyone with a salary.

Were I in "power", I would have done it differently, but I'm not, duh.

My main problem with a tax on billionaires isin the details, for example, how could the IRS know who had enough wealth to pay the tax?
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 07:39:23 AM
I still can't fathom that we just passed a bill that gave the richest 20% a larger % tax break than the lowest 20%. 
THAT is unethical, no matter what you sprinkle in your word salad.
The bill did not lower any tax rates. It only extended the existing tax rates established in 2017. Nobody got raised, nobody got lowered.

Read the bill.

Then comment.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Honestbuckeye on July 09, 2025, 07:48:35 AM
The bill did not lower any tax rates. It only extended the existing tax rates established in 2017. Nobody got raised, nobody got lowered.

Read the bill.

Then comment.
Exactly.  Except taxes on tips and OT, which certainly isn’t helping the wealthy.  
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 07:52:19 AM
Exactly.  Except taxes on tips and OT, which certainly isn’t helping the wealthy. 
And no tax on SS for the most in need.

The child tax credit went up.

The SALT limits went up.

People refuse to accept reality.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 07:54:07 AM
Cincy's SS checks aren't going to be taxed?
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 07:54:42 AM
The increase in SALT limits favors higher income folks living in high tax states like NY and CA.  The elimination of the EV tax credit tends to disfavor higher income folks.  The change in SS taxation (credits) tends to favor higher income folks to some degree.  It phases out at high incomes.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 07:55:48 AM
Cincy's SS checks aren't going to be taxed?
His will. My wife's will. Mine will.

But yeah, only people with money got a break.


Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MrNubbz on July 09, 2025, 07:56:28 AM
Exactly.  Except taxes on tips and OT, which certainly isn’t helping the wealthy. 
Just because it's not helping the wealthy it's siphoning off from those of us that aren't
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 07:57:35 AM
Cincy's SS checks aren't going to be taxed?
I'll still get taxed on SS, there is a tax deduction for part of it that goes away at higher income levels.


The new social security tax break, introduced under the sweeping tax legislation signed on July 3, 2025, provides a generous deduction of up to $6,000 per individual or $12,000 per couple for seniors aged 65 and above. This deduction applies directly to taxable income, significantly reducing — or in many cases, eliminating — taxes on Social Security checks.
Before this reform, nearly 40% of Social Security (https://legalunitedstates.com/big-beautiful-bill-social-security-tax/) recipients had to pay federal income taxes on their benefits. That number is now expected to drop to just 12%. The result is more money in the pockets of retirees, many of whom are living on fixed incomes.
Key Point Summary:

Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 08:02:07 AM
The increase in SALT limits favors higher income folks living in high tax states like NY and CA.  The elimination of the EV tax credit tends to disfavor higher income folks.  The change in SS taxation (credits) tends to favor higher income folks to some degree.  It phases out at high incomes.
The SALT increase favors anyone who lives in the high tax areas. It's up to the individual to make it work in their favor.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 08:03:30 AM
A lower income person in CA will use the standard deduction, they won't pay enough SALT to merit itemizing.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 08:07:35 AM
An odd thing about corporate taxes in the US, they account for around 11% of total Federal tax revenue.   So, one could double it or cut it to zero with only a modest impact on revenue.  I'd guess doubling it might end up reducing revenue if nothing else changed.

What Kinds of Revenue Does the Government Collect? | Bipartisan Policy Center (https://bipartisanpolicy.org/explainer/what-kinds-of-revenue-does-the-government-collect/)

My way of thinking about it is corporations don't pay taxes, their consumers pay it.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 08:19:28 AM
A lower income person in CA will use the standard deduction, they won't pay enough SALT to merit itemizing.
It's up to the individual to make it work in their favor.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MrNubbz on July 09, 2025, 08:45:59 AM
Hard to make it work in one's favor when the provisions and tax laws aren't slanted in you're favor
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 08:52:12 AM
Everything is in your favor in the Land of the Free.

Gotta take advantage.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 08:54:17 AM
Hard to make it work in one's favor when the provisions and tax laws aren't slanted in you're favor
get a job as a bartender - the perks are good and yer not taxed on tips or OT
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 08:56:18 AM
Hard to make it work in one's favor when the provisions and tax laws aren't slanted in you're favor
The standard deduction is large enough now that itemizing for most middle income folks will be ill advised, no matter how hard they work at it.

Your SALT deduction won't be large rnough to matter.  Maybe I'm missing something.

I've also read that Roth distributions are generally not taxed at the state level.



Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: bayareabadger on July 09, 2025, 08:57:51 AM
beans are the filler to increase profit margin!
Beans are the profit motive.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: bayareabadger on July 09, 2025, 08:59:31 AM
Remember, patents expire in 20 years.
I haven’t a lot of people have been finding ways to extend that? Feel like there was some coverage of that
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 09:00:22 AM
The standard deduction is large enough now that itemizing for most middle income folks will be ill advised, no matter how hard they work at it.

Your SALT deduction won't be large rnough to matter.  Maybe I'm missing something.

I've also read that Roth distributions are generally not taxed at the state level.


  • In general, qualified distributions from a Roth IRA are exempt from both state and federal income taxes.
  • Roth IRA contributions are not tax-deductible at either the federal or state level.
  • You may be able to elect to have state tax withheld on Roth IRA distributions in some states, but the specifics depend on your state's requirements and your chosen withholding options.


???????????
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 09:01:09 AM
The standard deduction is large enough now that itemizing for most middle income folks will be ill advised, no matter how hard they work at it.

Your SALT deduction won't be large rnough to matter.  Maybe I'm missing something.

I've also read that Roth distributions are generally not taxed at the state level.


  • In general, qualified distributions from a Roth IRA are exempt from both state and federal income taxes.
  • Roth IRA contributions are not tax-deductible at either the federal or state level.
  • You may be able to elect to have state tax withheld on Roth IRA distributions in some states, but the specifics depend on your state's requirements and your chosen withholding options.


You never lived in Illinois.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 09:04:56 AM
Imagine we institute some kind of billionaire wealth tax.  How would the IRS be be able to assess it?  They have no idea how much wealth I have.  I might have a Matisse on my walls, or gold bullion in a safe place.  OK, so they ask us all to fill out a form?  All of us?

I know Forbes estimates who has a billion, but it's a rough estimate, at best.  I'm not sure how it works.  

For those with X million shares of stock in a publically traded company it's pretty easy, on specific days.  Space X isn't, so how much is it worth?

Badger is part owner of a smaller company, how much is it worth?  Do they trust his valuation?  

Seems to me such a tax would encourage some folks to hide their wealth, which for billionaires is feasible (often).  And would we all have to make some kind of wealth declaration to the IRS each year?  

Europe mostly discovered this raised little revenue and wasn't worth the effort, what could we do differently?  We have somewhere around $7 trillion in wealth by billionaires in the US, so a 2% tax on that would obviously be $140 billion a year, if collected.  I suspect it would cost that much in paperwork trying to enforce it. And it's less than 10% of the current deficit.

If taxed at a higher rate, you'd have billionaires needing to sell stock, probably, which could mean the stock price would drop if they are major holders.

Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 09:07:24 AM
Imagine we institute some kind of billionaire wealth tax.  How would the IRS be be able to assess it?  They have no idea how much wealth I have.  I might have a Matisse on my walls, or gold bullion in a safe place.  OK, so they ask us all to fill out a form?  All of us?

I know Forbes estimates who has a billion, but it's a rough estimate, at best.  I'm not sure how it works. 

For those with X million shares of stock in a publically traded company it's pretty easy, on specific days.  Space X isn't, so how much is it worth?

Badger is part owner of a smaller company, how much is it worth?  Do they trust his valuation? 

Seems to me such a tax would encourage some folks to hide their wealth, which for billionaires is feasible (often).  And would we all have to make some kind of wealth declaration to the IRS each year? 

Europe mostly discovered this raised little revenue and wasn't worth the effort, what could we do differently?  We have somewhere around $7 trillion in wealth by billionaires in the US, so a 2% tax on that would obviously be $140 billion a year, if collected.  I suspect it would cost that much in paperwork trying to enforce it. And it's less than 10% of the current deficit.

If taxed at a higher rate, you'd have billionaires needing to sell stock, probably, which could mean the stock price would drop if they are major holders.


I'm not an owner anymore. Would my valuation be trusted? Probably not in New York.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 09:16:34 AM
an aggressive sales tax on items billionaires purchase

I think we tried a tax on expensive boats

European sports cars ?
private jets
Caviar 
wagyu beef
wine and liquor over $200/bottle
jewelry

long list
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MrNubbz on July 09, 2025, 09:19:51 AM
How about Budwater???
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 09:23:03 AM
We had such a tax on planes a yachts at one time.  You know what happened?

It basically killed off those industries.  

(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiivvqa76-OAxUjQjABHcT0A64QFnoECDIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Farchive%2Fbusiness%2F1993%2F07%2F16%2Fhow-to-sink-an-industry-and-not-soak-the-rich%2F08ea5310-4a4b-4674-ab88-fad8c42cf55b%2F&usg=AOvVaw1lHHGJcxUgG3sTTTNwYrz0&opi=89978449)
HOW TO SINK AN INDUSTRY AND NOT SOAK THE RICH

 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiivvqa76-OAxUjQjABHcT0A64QFnoECDIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Farchive%2Fbusiness%2F1993%2F07%2F16%2Fhow-to-sink-an-industry-and-not-soak-the-rich%2F08ea5310-4a4b-4674-ab88-fad8c42cf55b%2F&usg=AOvVaw1lHHGJcxUgG3sTTTNwYrz0&opi=89978449)
(https://i.imgur.com/hKCGHaF.png)
The Washington Post

 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiivvqa76-OAxUjQjABHcT0A64QFnoECDIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.washingtonpost.com%2Farchive%2Fbusiness%2F1993%2F07%2F16%2Fhow-to-sink-an-industry-and-not-soak-the-rich%2F08ea5310-4a4b-4674-ab88-fad8c42cf55b%2F&usg=AOvVaw1lHHGJcxUgG3sTTTNwYrz0&opi=89978449)





Jul 15, 1993 — Rich people have to pay too much for their yachts. The reason is the 10 percent luxury tax that went into effect two years ago.

Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MrNubbz on July 09, 2025, 09:26:53 AM
get a job as a bartender - the perks are good and yer not taxed on tips or OT
Ya,no I'd be subjected to an inordinate amount week moments
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 09:30:57 AM
We had such a tax on planes a yachts at one time.  You know what happened?

It basically killed off those industries. 
I know some blue collar types work in those industries and some white collars, but maybe killing those industries wouldn't be all bad.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 09:32:20 AM
Killing any legal industry is bad.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 09:36:38 AM
It shifts production to other countries, the demand is still there.  And yes, tariffs can attach at times.

I think some billionaires live on their yachts in the Med.  They certainly have enormous yachts.  Maybe they establish residency in Monaco.  Monaco is "weird", to me, it's somewhat akin to the UAE and Qatar.  
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 09:37:11 AM
so, you're not in favor of tariffs? 
Killing any legal industry is bad.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 09:47:08 AM
so, you're not in favor of tariffs?
I'm fine with tariffs, if they are mutual.

Fairness is a good thing.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MikeDeTiger on July 09, 2025, 09:54:36 AM
I think everyone should be a billionaire.  Except people who put beans in their chili

Bean-fascist!
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 10:14:50 AM
SALT deductions are relief to people who voted for stupid state and local policies at the expense of those of us in other states - some might call that taxation without representation. 

How about the people in high tax states stop voting for stupid things?  SALT deductions need to be eliminated permanently. 
I agree.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 10:57:50 AM
I'm fine with tariffs, if they are mutual.

Fairness is a good thing.
if they are mutual, ..... why have them

25% to 25% is the same as 0% to 0%
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 11:01:22 AM
Depends on the imbalance. 
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: jgvol on July 09, 2025, 11:01:26 AM
if they are mutual, ..... why have them

25% to 25% is the same as 0% to 0%

Not if there is a trade imbalance.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 11:02:40 AM
not real mutual
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: grillrat on July 09, 2025, 11:29:38 AM
My wife's opinion is that billionaires can absolutely exist, but she thinks that there should be a rule that you can only make at most 10 million times what your lowest paid employee makes.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 11:31:50 AM
fair
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 11:44:46 AM
My wife's opinion is that billionaires can absolutely exist, but she thinks that there should be a rule that you can only make at most 10 million times what your lowest paid employee makes.
What about billionaires with no employees?
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: grillrat on July 09, 2025, 11:59:21 AM
What about billionaires with no employees?
N/A then?

While I am sure that at least one of those exists, I suspect it is pretty rare.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 12:01:08 PM
10,000,000 X 0 = 0
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: grillrat on July 09, 2025, 12:04:21 PM
Well, you would technically be self-employed, so 10,000,000 X 1.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2025, 12:06:49 PM
Or retired.

0
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 12:08:51 PM
N/A then?

While I am sure that at least one of those exists, I suspect it is pretty rare.
A fair number of billionaires have no employees, they don't own some company, they invest in many.  Even Elon only owns 12% of Tesla.  

Warren Buffett doesn't own anything directly.  I'm sure he has a lot of Berkshire shares.  What about the Walmart family?  I'm sure they have a lot of WMT shares, but do they have employees?  The ones who are just passive investors don't, maybe one or two are in management.  

And by and large, the lowest paid employee of large corporations still make decent money.  These aren't burger flippers.  We had secretaries retiring as millionaires.

I'm obviously nowhere near being a billionaire, but I own tiny pieces of companies, do I have employees?  I don't think so.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: grillrat on July 09, 2025, 02:35:45 PM
I guarantee that those mentioned (Elon / Buffett / Waltons) have employees.  I know a few millionaires in the 9 figure area.  Every one of them has executive assistants that handle alot of the minutia that occurs in their lives.  Even beyond work-related assistants, all of them also have multiple properties and those each have "house managers" that take care of all the catering / decorating / invitations /details for when said millionaire wants to throw a super-bowl party., etc.

Elon Musk aint driving his own yacht.

(For the record, I don't actually agree with this concept, it was just my wife's belief that I am throwing out there for discussion). 
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2025, 02:41:43 PM
Oh, yeah, good point, I wasn't thinking of those employees, no doubt about that.  
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 09, 2025, 03:13:31 PM
an aggressive sales tax on items billionaires purchase

I think we tried a tax on expensive boats

European sports cars ?
private jets
Caviar
wagyu beef
wine and liquor over $200/bottle
jewelry

long list
escorts
limo drivers
baby oil delivery drivers
tax lawyers
private island realtors
scrotum washers
yes men
mistresses
'friends'
yacht captains
private chefs
personal trainers
golf swing coaches
tennis pros (to keep the wife busy and fulfilled)
apartments for mistresses
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MikeDeTiger on July 09, 2025, 05:34:13 PM
Can we tax the NIL and other slush funds they buy players with?
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: utee94 on July 09, 2025, 05:50:57 PM
Can we tax the NIL and other slush funds they buy players with?
NIL yes.

Slush funds... 
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 06:02:24 PM
what slush funds????
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Mdot21 on July 09, 2025, 06:10:20 PM
what slush funds????
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GvSSKuKXkAAzi_y?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 09, 2025, 09:54:47 PM
Just shrug about it and get back to screwing poor people.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2025, 10:34:49 PM
it's deplorable but, it's how the world works and has been working since the dawn of mankind
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 10, 2025, 09:27:53 AM
I actually don't think billionaires bother "offshoring" money, much, except as an emergency fund.  Political leaders do.  Billionaires just don't need to evade taxes, they can avoid them easily enough.  I wouldn't take the risk were I wealthy, it is just not nearly worth it.  

I'd have property somewhere half decent in central America for sure, legally, and might have some gold bars there in a safe, silver coins, etc.

I wouldn't illegally try and hide income, the slight chance of getting caught is just too high when I can avoid taxes easily.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 10, 2025, 02:48:52 PM
I didn't think "offshoring" your money was illegal.  It just meant it's in some place that doesn't tax them like the Caymans or wherever.

It must be nice to be able to put $10 million in 100 different places.
Talk about diversifying!
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 10, 2025, 03:09:04 PM
The illegal part is not reporting income from an offshore account.  
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 28, 2025, 10:04:01 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/QkVhg4f.png)
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 28, 2025, 10:17:07 PM
The illegal part is not reporting income from an offshore account. 
That'd be like scheduling a 9th conference game.  Stupid.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MrNubbz on July 28, 2025, 10:31:01 PM
So the CEO of an online Pet Care retailer (Chewy) makes 35.1 million per. I really need to start paying attention
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 28, 2025, 11:00:48 PM
no one really needs a starbucks coffee
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: MrNubbz on July 28, 2025, 11:34:06 PM
I grind (https://i.imgur.com/KPYDngL.png)myself
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 29, 2025, 12:13:36 AM
no one really needs a starbucks coffee
Think of all the people who'd become billionaires if they just stopped buying a $4.50 cup of coffee every day!
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 29, 2025, 07:09:56 AM
Think of all the people who'd become billionaires if they just stopped buying a $4.50 cup of coffee every day!
Think of all the people who could go to work instead of sitting in Starbucks all day.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 29, 2025, 07:12:00 AM
I no longer drink coffee (or any caffeine) but my wife still does. And this is the winner.

(https://i.imgur.com/CV0AQH3.png)
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 29, 2025, 07:29:02 AM
that was my parent's brand
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 29, 2025, 07:32:38 AM
Same.

Just got a new Mr. Coffee machine. $20.00

The $150.00 Bunn crapped out after 5 years.

Not doing that again.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 29, 2025, 07:35:41 AM
a buddy gave me a keurig a few years ago - it works quickly and the price was right
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 29, 2025, 07:39:17 AM
Folger's used to be a P&G brand.  I get the Columbian from Costco, it works.  My wife has dropped coffee, she has some machine now never used.  She drinks tea instead.

I'll often drink hot tea around 4 PM.  She really likes sweet tea which around here is mostly sugar.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 29, 2025, 07:40:25 AM
We do have a Nespresso machine too. On RARE occasions I'll have one of those.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 29, 2025, 07:41:06 AM
We had Keurig for years. Overrated in my opinion.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 29, 2025, 07:46:27 AM
I often get an espresso after lunch at our favorite Italian place because she has a selection of pretty neat cups she collected over the years.

There isn't much to an espresso.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 29, 2025, 07:48:12 AM
caffeine
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 29, 2025, 07:52:29 AM
caffeine
RARE.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 29, 2025, 07:54:42 AM
My wife says espresso has less caffeine in than drip coffee.  I have not checked that out, it's possible.

I order "Cafe Americano" in France, which is an espresso with water added.
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 29, 2025, 08:34:03 AM
As for "should there be billionaires", a real question is, if not, how can that be changed?  Let's stipulate the US wants no one to have a billion in wealth, however determined.  How could be implement that legally?

What would be some possible repercussions if that were attempted?
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: FearlessF on July 29, 2025, 08:39:57 AM
congress could pass a law (they wouldn't), the Supreme court might find it unconstitutional (they would)

assets could be seized

Billionaires would flee the country (all of them)
Title: Re: Should there be billionaires? A test.
Post by: Cincydawg on July 29, 2025, 08:41:28 AM
Ergo, basiscally, it's a moot question.  Whatever one feels about them, they are going to stick around regardless.  Problem solved.