CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big XII => Topic started by: MikeDeTiger on May 20, 2025, 12:00:43 PM
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Just wanted to start a thread for any ponderings or musings about music-related stuff, but which is not actually posting songs, which would clutter up the "What song is on your mind right now?" thread.
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So, about two songs posted here recently:
I had the privilege of learning music from a lot of very talented people who taught me a lot about production as well as playing instruments. I still think like a producer when I listen to songs, and I'm pretty well aware of accepted norms within genres. Bon Jovi's song "Never Say Goodbye" has an odd thing about it which maybe a lot of people overlook, but it jumps out at me, kind of annoys me, and also surprises me that it made it in the final track. If you go to about the 1:09 mark, toward the end of the first half of the first chorus, there's a syncopated snare hit. It's not wrong, and it's not terribly uncommon for a drummer to do something like that in a live setting if he's feeling mildly frisky, but it definitely goes against the album-style, slick, pop-production of the rest of the track, and how pretty much all other Bon Jovi songs get sanded, stained, lacquered, and buffed. It sticks out like a sore thumb to me, because comparatively, it's not something that would've escaped the producer. Like, I would've expected the producer to say "Let's do that section again, but just hit the snare on 2 and 4 there." It may not jar you like it does me, and that's fine, I know I'm uber-sensative to stuff that doesn't matter to most people at all in this regard, but my main point is more to say that I'm surprised it was left that way on the album cut. I believe Tulip is a drummer.....I was wondering what his take on it is.
Second thing--I never thought about it before until I just posted it recently, but Van Halen's "Love Walks In" is one of the few songs I can think of where the chorus brings the energy down instead of up, compared to the verses. The drummer is "in" on the verses, and mostly "out" on the chorus. Usually it'd be the other way around if there's a big change in dynamic between verse and chorus. The vocals are also a lot more forceful on the verse than the chorus. Very interesting to me. It's so common to do it the other way around that I probably wouldn't have thought of it, but, that's why they're Van Halen and I'm not.
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It's not a song I've played over and over again (decent enough tune, just not something I've listened to a bunch), but I went and listened to it fresh, and I see what you're meaning. It's a very 80's power ballad - a good 2 and 4 slow dance tune. You'd expect it to stay, well, "plain" isn't the best word, but "straightforward" to keep the focus on the vocals and guitar.
That uptick right there at the end of the first chorus isn't 80's rock power ballad. It's almost slow-funk. It could be expected at the end, 2nd-to-last chorus where you're building to a big finish, but right there at the beginning, the drummer is calling for something that ain't happening! That's a really neat catch that I'm not gonna be able to un-hear! =)
I'm a big believer in "know the rules, then break them in a creative way". "Love Walks In" seems to do just that. Very 80's 5ths synth by Eddie, and cymbal washes by Alex. The tempo is appropriately slow, and the verses are meaty like you said. Without something different, this is a decent but forgettable average tune. It's almost like they echo the lyrics at the chorus as they "Sense a change, and nothing feels the same. All your dreams are strange. Love comes walkin' in.". It's a change from what you were expecting, and the way you thought the song (or love) would go. The tempo sort of gets malleable in the chorus, so you gotta make sure you don't stop the slow sway dancing I know you're doing.
Beats "Say You, Say Me" by Lionel Richie that just sort of starts a totally separate song for a bridge.
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I like talking to somebody who knows the term "cymbal wash" :)
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Post DLR, Alex Van Halen is the very definition of Cymbal Wash.
But they're still awesome so I'll allow it.
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I don't currently own a full kit. I'd love to check out Roland's VAD series, but for some reason the wife doesn't think that's a good use of $10,000.
So I like my 16" Remo djembe. I let it ring, and damp with the fingertips when called for. I bring it out when friends are demonstrating their acoustic guitar skills, and I'm wanting to add something else. I've got a cheap 18 crash-ride mounted, and a mark tree clamped underneath it.
In full setup, I'll sit on the cajon, play the djembe, velcro some shakers or zils to my toes, and keep the padded mallets handy. Hopefully the guitarist isn't too self-conscious, plays to decent volume, and we can get things grooving.
The mark tree is not debatable. I'm playing it often, because it's possibly one of the most glorious sounds Gawd made.
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I understood 9-11 of the words in that entire post.
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I don't currently own a full kit. I'd love to check out Roland's VAD series, but for some reason the wife doesn't think that's a good use of $10,000.
The mark tree is not debatable. I'm playing it often, because it's possibly one of the most glorious sounds Gawd made.
I don't either. You can get a pretty choice acoustic set for a quarter of that, although maybe not with all the hardware and cymbals. So let's say half. But I just plain don't like the feel of electric drums. Acoustic sound is compression waves, and I feel it both in my body at the center of the kit, and in the reverberation of the sticks when I hit a drum. It's all dead and lifeless with electric drums, because there's no actual air being moved around.
heh.....the chimes.....as I recall, they were ubiquitous in churches with contemporary music in the 80's. No self-respecting drummer in the 80's would be caught unprepared for a ballad without them. Like roto-toms, they had largely fell out of fashion by the time I started getting my own kits, so I never had any.
The 80's even had cooler drums. Like Sammy Hagar said, everything smiled in the 80's, the hair, the clothes, the music....
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Post DLR, Alex Van Halen is the very definition of Cymbal Wash.
But they're still awesome so I'll allow it.
Do you have a preference between Van Halen and Van Hagar? Some VH fans I've come across through the years are very opinionated about it. I like both, though I suppose overall I lean Hagar, since 5150 is my favorite album and I prefer his voice to DLR, in a vacuum. DLR sure fit the DLR songs, though.
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Do you have a preference between Van Halen and Van Hagar? Some VH fans I've come across through the years are very opinionated about it. I like both, though I suppose overall I lean Hagar, since 5150 is my favorite album and I prefer his voice to DLR, in a vacuum. DLR sure fit the DLR songs, though.
Nah no real preference. I never got into the debates, I found them to be silly and pointless. Like droog said, Van Halen music is supposed to be fun. Arguing about the different versions of the band, is not fun.
If you absolutely made me pick I'd probably go with DLR but it's no slight to Sammy at all.
My favorite VH song is "I'll Wait" off 1984 and my favorite VH album is VH I, but 5150 was a really great album as well and I thoroughly enjoyed all 4 of Sammy's studio albums with the band.
I was a little young to see DLR play with Van Halen live (although I did see him solo for his Skyscraper tour), so Hagar is the only version I ever saw live and I saw them twice in that configuration. I also saw Sammy and Michael Anthony and Co. on tour for his Circle album, which was a great show.
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I don't either. You can get a pretty choice acoustic set for a quarter of that, although maybe not with all the hardware and cymbals. So let's say half. But I just plain don't like the feel of electric drums. Acoustic sound is compression waves, and I feel it both in my body at the center of the kit, and in the reverberation of the sticks when I hit a drum. It's all dead and lifeless with electric drums, because there's no actual air being moved around.
heh.....the chimes.....as I recall, they were ubiquitous in churches with contemporary music in the 80's. No self-respecting drummer in the 80's would be caught unprepared for a ballad without them. Like roto-toms, they had largely fell out of fashion by the time I started getting my own kits, so I never had any.
The 80's even had cooler drums. Like Sammy Hagar said, everything smiled in the 80's, the hair, the clothes, the music....
What I'd like is a drum room. That's even less likely than the VAD kit. My preference for that style is 100% practical, in that mostly I'd be playing in the theatre. Being able to hand over a cable drop to the sound tech would be convenient. Being able to switch between a tight jazz kit, a big rock sound, and a TR-808 could solve a lot of problems. For space reasons, I should probably covet the 50KV or whatever series that's just trigger pads on a stand, but the fake acoustic shells are a concession I'd like just to see who notices.
But yeah, while I'm sure that lots of folks can be taught to play percussion, I believe there's a certain neurology out there, similar to ADHD and the like, that's soothed by the kinetic motion of the limbs, the linkage of rhythms, and the sheer sonic pressure of the instrument. I know I kinda hafta sit there and sync my brain up with my body before starting a groove. After tuning, I HAVE to get up and leave the kit, because I'm incapable of sitting next to a kit and not playing it.
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VH is different obviously with David Lee and Hagar
I like them both. a LOT!
why worry.
one of my many favorites
https://youtu.be/Sp5Nd93gQ5I
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Surely that's the cleanest guitar tone EVH ever used. And he threw in some country-style chicken-pickin' to boot. Presumably because he could.
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I've heard that all the band members really enjoyed playing that one, for whatever reason
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Valerie Bertinelli used it for the intro to a short-lived show she did, "Sydney" in 1990.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbIzd48-DY8
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I've heard that all the band members really enjoyed playing that one, for whatever reason
Maybe it was a fun change of pace from their usual vibe.
Even in a different style of song with no overdrive or distortion on his amp, it's still unmistakably EVH. Reminds me of an interview I read back in college when he was asked about equipment. He said equipment was important and he wouldn't diminish it, but that people put too much stock in what it will do for you and what it amounts to. He said "You can come to my house, plug in my guitar to my amp with my settings, and it's still going to sound like you. And I could go to your house, plug in your guitar to your amp, but it's still gonna sound like me."
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Valerie Bertinelli used it for the intro to a short-lived show she did, "Sydney" in 1990.
She was hot back in the day - could have been my teacher and finish what she started
(https://i.imgur.com/4D4YcH7.png)
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Oh yeah she was definitely one of my early faves.
And Susanna Hoffs...
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And Susanna Hoffs...
Well, she's definitely on my mind now.
I was just a kid barely in elementary school when The Bangles videos were playing. I didn't even understand exactly what I was feeling, but I knew she was beautiful and I wanted to keep looking at her.
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Maybe it was a fun change of pace from their usual vibe.
Even in a different style of song with no overdrive or distortion on his amp, it's still unmistakably EVH. Reminds me of an interview I read back in college when he was asked about equipment. He said equipment was important and he wouldn't diminish it, but that people put too much stock in what it will do for you and what it amounts to. He said "You can come to my house, plug in my guitar to my amp with my settings, and it's still going to sound like you. And I could go to your house, plug in your guitar to your amp, but it's still gonna sound like me."
Reminds me of Jimi talking about listening to people imitate him. He said, "Man, these cats really studied. They're even copying my mistakes!".
Now, there's a reason why you like what you like. Studying the technique and gear of your heroes isn't time wasted. You'll learn a lot. Just don't set sounding exactly like them as the goal. The reason why they're playing it "correct" is because they're the ones that recorded it. It's right by definition. But really, that's just how they played it that day.
The important part is that they were playing it themselves, so they sounded like themselves. Go thou and do likewise!
Charlie Parker's famous line is on the order of: "First, you master your instrument. Then, you master the music. Finally, forget all that s**t and go play!"
You're not excused from practicing or learning, but don't let that beat the soul out of your playing.
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Right on.
Starting in my teenage years when I discovered Jeff Porcaro, I ruthlessly tried to imitate him. He was my favorite, my hero, and I wanted to get as close to what he did as was humanly possible. It annoyed me to no end, all the ways I failed. I learned a ton of good stuff, and it was a thing, but it wasn't him, it wasn't what I wanted. Every album I ever got to play on and every live recording I ever heard of myself secretly disappointed me. I wanted the magic he had, and I wasn't hearing it on my playbacks. Everybody in my main "circle" knew what I was about and what I aimed for. Sometimes I was mystified they even wanted to play with me. Why weren't they bothered like I was?
One day I read an old interview of Jeff from a back-issue of Modern Drummer I'd gotten a hold of. He said a lot of insane things, like his timing sucked, he had no groove, stuff like that. The biggest thing that jumped out at me was he said he couldn't listen to a single record he'd ever done without getting bugged about the way he played. (He did literally thousands of records, btw, including many major ones.) I thought "Hmm.....if he gets irked at listening to his own playing, then I guess I'm in good company." He also talked about how his playing was always an aspiration to play like his heroes, which he basically just failed at the best he could. I thought, maybe that's me too.
Years later a friend of mine sent me some old tapes of stuff we'd done. The material wasn't fresh on my mind, I didn't remember a lot of it, had no plans to play it, and thus had no inclination to formulate in my mind what I'd want to do for such a song. My playing had evolved by then, not so much in skill, but in terms of style. Not for better or worse....just different, as happens with most musicians, so far as I'm aware. I listened to younger-me play the drums and thought "Hey, that's not bad." No wonder people didn't mind playing with me. I only heard what I was aiming for at the time. They only heard what I played.
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Charlie Parker's famous line is on the order of: "First, you master your instrument. Then, you master the music. Finally, forget all that s**t and go play!"
Lol. When I was in San Marcos and switched from drums to bass at my church and was trying to level myself up as quickly as possible, I remember coming up with this riff one time which I thought I liked, but it used a note I knew wasn't in the scale of the song's key. I had two old friends who were bona fide genius guitar and bass players, and I called the first up to ask for advice. He had a minor in music and was very patient and went over all kinds of scenarios where you can mix these kinds of arpeggios over those kinds of chords, and all kinds of theory jargon to lean into. Then I called the next guy and to ask the same thing, and then recapped everything our mutual friend had just told me. He finally cut me off and said "That shit is too complicated. If it sounds good, play it. If it doesn't, don't."
I never mastered the instrument by any means, but boy was that some good advice.
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I recently got season tickets to our symphony, they come in six event packages, and aren't cheap. They off also special events which are even less cheap, this year they have Lang Lang, who I'd really like to see, but it sold out before I could get in. He's a Chinese pianist who is pretty fun to watch and I think he is superb.
I play the piano a bit, though my skills have receded dramatically over the years, I'm trying to get some of it back. We bought a Yamaha electronic piano, which sounds goofy, but it has a regular keyboard, so the action is terrific, but the sound if from a speaker. Electronic pianos I had played with previously have awful "action", the keys don't hit right at all, this one is like playing a concert grand. We got it at Costco of all places and didn't pay nearly that much. It's a neat piano IMHO.
Yamaha Clavinova CLP-895GP Digital Grand Piano with Bench - Polished Ebony | Sweetwater (https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CLP895GP--yamaha-clavinova-clp-895gp-digital-grand-piano-with-bench-polished-ebony)
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Keybed action is something piano players tend to be very finicky about, in my experience, so I don't think you're alone. I've played a little over the years, though it was certainly not an instrument I billed myself being proficient at. Mostly I found anything labeled a "stage" piano to have keys that felt pretty good. Keyboard workstations could do more stuff, but usually have crappy feeling keys. I never understood what the holdup was for someone to make a keyboard with the brain of a workstation and the keybed of a stage piano.
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When I was taking lessons (up to age 12), we had a "spinet" at home, the least expensive kind of piano. My teacher had two Steinway grands pushed together. The spinet had a very light action, the grands had a heavy action, so in practicing at home, my hand strength was deficient relative to playing on a grand. We would have periodis graded performances on a 12 foot grand which was heavier still, the sound is terrific, but you need strong fingers, which I lacked.
So, in 8th grade, I was playing basketball and my fingers were getting "stove up" at times, so I started back playing the piano, and my fingers got stronger, and solved that problem, and improved my hand strength in bball a lot. I kept playing through college until I got married, I really liked it, my then wife did not. So, I basically quit, for years, now I'm trying to get back into it with indifferent results. My left hand in particular is still deficient. And I'm old.
Anyway, the feel of the keyboard is very important even to hackers like me. The Yamaha feels like a grand, you can set it to feel like a Boesendorfer, which Yamaha now owns. You don't see that brand much, it's kind of top of the top, though most concert pianists play Steinways. The former can cost over $300,000.
Our symphony recently bought a new Steinway concert grand, it was over $250,000, they brought in like five of them for folks to play and feel and listen to to choose one.
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Depends on what you're expecting and can tolerate. Different pianos have different actions, string weights, key weights, etc. An electric keyboard can be as simple as some plastic levers that turn a switch on or off. They can have weights that attempt to simulate the pressure of a mechanical piano. They can be key velocity sensitive to produce different ADSR forms depending on how hard or soft they're pressed.
You probably also have a big-assed TV somewhere in the house. You're probably not using the factory speakers on it. Go try out some keyboard specific amplifiers (for simplicity's sake) like Roland's KC series (you won't need a big one). Your keyboard will certainly have some "Line Out" ports that will make a simple connection. Positioned appropriately, it'll make a world of difference in the sound quality.
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Bosendorfers are cool, since part of their sound is that they're made of live wood! Basically, they have a shelf life! For that much money, the instrument itself basically dries out at some point (like 40 years or something) and the sound changes.
I consider myself lucky that my early career, starting when I was like 9 years old, I played REALLY HORRIBLE public school cellos. They had tragically high action and cruddy solid steel strings (there are many brands of high end boutique steel based strings, but these weren't one of 'em!). As a result, I built up finger strength that can crush billiard balls. While it's been decades since I played cellos like that, I keep medium bronze strings on my acoustic guitars (only because I like the jangle sound). The strat is similarly wired with Ernie Ball heavy bottom. I should not have gotten the jumbo frets, but I didn't really understand what I was doing then. I have to change my touch to keep from fretting it sharp.
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The Yamaha we have has a regular mechanical action which feels like a regular piano, because the action IS that of a regular piano. Then a computer reads the keys struck and produces the sound through some pretty good speakers. I have no complaint about sounds quality, or the feel it the piano.
I was amazed when I first played it in Costco.
My big assed TV usually uses the TV speakers, though I can fire up the stereo sitting next to it. My wife doesn't like that much. She's usually upstairs with her big assed TV.