CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: medinabuckeye1 on March 12, 2025, 09:04:17 PM
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Well I was certainly hoping not to start this thread for another week or two but Iowa put the last nail in the coffin for Ohio State's 24/25 season so I'm moving on.
I do have some observations that I'd like to ask for feedback from other tOSU fans but also and especially non-tOSU fans. Sometimes it is easier to see clearly when you aren't emotionally attached/invested.
First, my perception was that tOSU's big men just flat out sucked. They got these 5* guys from blue-bloods Dook and Kentucky and the upside was sky-high. I honestly wasn't expecting THAT, but not THIS either. I thought they'd at least be decent.
Second, I know that all teams experience this occasionally but it seemed to me that Ohio State had a much higher than normal proportion of games where they just imploded down the stretch. Against Indiana in Bloomington, for example, they led for something like 35 minutes and by as much as double digits but in the end the number next to IU was bigger. Not sure why and maybe I'm distorting my view because those are so annoying so what are some neutral takes?
Third, and this is a very daming criticism of Coach Diebler but it felt to me that the whole was less than the sum of the parts. The parts were not great, but it felt like the parts were easily a Tournament team and the whole is about to host NIT games.
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you could have put this off for a week or three, maybe 5
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you could have put this off for a week or three, maybe 5
Eh, I'm done with 24/25, you?
I wasn't able to watch last night (Peacock) so I was reading some coverage of Ohio State's loss last night and it really hit on two of the three themes that I mentioned earlier.
First on the big men:
Ohio State's 5* Big men Sean Stewart and Aaron Bradshaw combined for 31 minutes in the Iowa game and grabbed 10 rebounds which is good but not exactly remarkable. In those 31 minutes they had only one block and contributed basically nothing on offense with a grand combined total of two freaking points on (combined) 1-6 shooting.
The above was bad already but then I read the 11Warriors (tOSU site) account (https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-basketball/2025/03/154230/ohio-states-big-ten-tournament-run-ends-in-one-game-as-buckeyes-fall-to-iowa-77-70) and noticed in the game notes at the end that "Star Iowa center Owen Freeman, the team's leading scorer and rebounder, was out with an injury on Wednesday." Wait, what? You mean to tell me that Iowa's starting star center missed the game? Ohio State's big men were this bad against a backup? This is beyond pathetic.
How can you possibly only shoot 1-6 when you should be dunking and shooting from point blank range?
Second, imploding down the stretch:
This game was tied at 61 with 7:25 to go. To that point it had been a mostly back-and-forth affair. Ohio State didn't score again until 3:26 to go. If you are keeping track at home that is one second shy of a four minute stretch of zero freaking points. By the time Ohio State did score again it was to cut a seven point deficit to five and the die was cast. Ohio State did get within two with 00:45 to go but Iowa answered with a three that put it out of reach and ended Ohio State's season.
This just feels like deja vu. Late game collapses against multiple opponents are the cause of Ohio State's third straight NCAA Tournament absence.
Just a few examples:
- Ohio State led 49-41 with 9:37 to go in the IU game and lost by 6
- Ohio State led almost the entire Illinois game and had a 68-63 lead with 7:43 to go but didn't score again until 2:28 at which point the bucket merely cut the deficit to 8.
Finally, Ohio State shot 22.7% from three in the BTT loss. For a team that lives-and-dies by the three, that isn't going to get it done.
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UNL was done three, maybe 5 weeks ago
if they were ever started
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UNL was done three, maybe 5 weeks ago
if they were ever started
They got started for sure. When Nebraska played Ohio State the first time (Lincoln) both teams appeared to be on the bubble and Nebraska's win pushed them to 16-8/6-7. At that point they looked like a good bet to make the Tournament. The loss to Maryland didn't really hurt and the road win over Northwestern on February 16 put Nebraska at 17-9/7-8 sill looking like a solid bet to make the Tournament. Obviously the five-game losing streak since then kiboshed that but they were in the hunt until late February. Ohio State lasted a couple more weeks.
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Eh, I'm done with 24/25, you?
I wasn't able to watch last night (Peacock) so I was reading some coverage of Ohio State's loss last night and it really hit on two of the three themes that I mentioned earlier.
First on the big men:
Ohio State's 5* Big men Sean Stewart and Aaron Bradshaw combined for 31 minutes in the Iowa game and grabbed 10 rebounds which is good but not exactly remarkable. In those 31 minutes they had only one block and contributed basically nothing on offense with a grand combined total of two freaking points on (combined) 1-6 shooting.
The above was bad already but then I read the 11Warriors (tOSU site) account (https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-basketball/2025/03/154230/ohio-states-big-ten-tournament-run-ends-in-one-game-as-buckeyes-fall-to-iowa-77-70) and noticed in the game notes at the end that "Star Iowa center Owen Freeman, the team's leading scorer and rebounder, was out with an injury on Wednesday." Wait, what? You mean to tell me that Iowa's starting star center missed the game? Ohio State's big men were this bad against a backup? This is beyond pathetic.
How can you possibly only shoot 1-6 when you should be dunking and shooting from point blank range?
Second, imploding down the stretch:
This game was tied at 61 with 7:25 to go. To that point it had been a mostly back-and-forth affair. Ohio State didn't score again until 3:26 to go. If you are keeping track at home that is one second shy of a four minute stretch of zero freaking points. By the time Ohio State did score again it was to cut a seven point deficit to five and the die was cast. Ohio State did get within two with 00:45 to go but Iowa answered with a three that put it out of reach and ended Ohio State's season.
This just feels like deja vu. Late game collapses against multiple opponents are the cause of Ohio State's third straight NCAA Tournament absence.
Just a few examples:
- Ohio State led 49-41 with 9:37 to go in the IU game and lost by 6
- Ohio State led almost the entire Illinois game and had a 68-63 lead with 7:43 to go but didn't score again until 2:28 at which point the bucket merely cut the deficit to 8.
Finally, Ohio State shot 22.7% from three in the BTT loss. For a team that lives-and-dies by the three, that isn't going to get it done.
Freeman has been out for a while.
But yeah, OSU assembled some not impressive bigs.
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They got started for sure. When Nebraska played Ohio State the first time (Lincoln) both teams appeared to be on the bubble and Nebraska's win pushed them to 16-8/6-7. At that point they looked like a good bet to make the Tournament. The loss to Maryland didn't really hurt and the road win over Northwestern on February 16 put Nebraska at 17-9/7-8 sill looking like a solid bet to make the Tournament. Obviously the five-game losing streak since then kiboshed that but they were in the hunt until late February. Ohio State lasted a couple more weeks.
well, scraping into the tournament with a crap seed playin as an underdog with little chance for a tourney win isn't much to get excited about
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anyone want to coach the Gopher Basketball program
you will get 4 years and you dont have to do much just make sure the guys are not being horrible in the community
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I wish Freddie Hoiberg would take that position
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Freeman has been out for a while.
But yeah, OSU assembled some not impressive bigs.
I could be wrong and I'm interested in neutral takes but as I see it, Ohio State's guards were actually pretty good*. This catastrophe with the bigs is THE major problem. I don't really watch enough to be able to have a decent guess as to whether this is a talent problem or a coaching problem but it needs to get fixed ASAP.
*I don't mean "National Championship good" nor even necessarily "B1G Championship good" but I think they were good enough to contend in the B1G. The Bigs, however, looked more like they belonged to a mediocre MAC team.
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well, scraping into the tournament with a crap seed playin as an underdog with little chance for a tourney win isn't much to get excited about
I'm honestly surprised to hear this take from you. Even as an Ohio State fan I view a Tournament berth as "not nothing" considering Nebraska's history I would have expected it to be a cause of celebration for fans in Lincoln.
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hoops just isn't a big deal for most Husker fans
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Owen Freeman in the portal after Fran got let go. Averaged 16.7 points and 6.7 rebounds, plus nearly 2 blocks per game.
He will be in high demand, although the defense needs a lot of work
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Well, not happy to be here, but that's life sometimes. UW has an interesting rebuild, but should return some solid pieces. Time to look closer.
The departures
John Tonje - One-year transfer wonder. Was one of the couple best players in the league. Will be missed.
Max Klesmit - Really nice shooting guard who helped at point and wing. Had a rough shooting year, but was just really valuable to have out there. Good Badger.
Steve Crowl - Four-year starting center. Never quite dominant, but often pretty good, if not the most consistent. Gonna be weird not having him out there.
Carter Gilmore - A former walk-on whose offense had folks calling for less of him, but whose defense always meant he found a role. Figured out some shooting this season and became an almost starter. Also held down 4 spot well.
Kamari McGee - A transfer development story. Was almost useless when he arrived from UWGB. Was a nice change-up ball-handler and spot up shooter last year. Also the only true point in the rotation.
Markus Ilver - Wasn’t in the rotation. Spent four years, seeming like a guy who could maybe find a way to contribute at a thin spot, but he never did.
Rotation (hopeful) returners
John Blackwell - He's a strong scoring wing/shooting guard who can be a point. Ideally he's not having as much of that work this year, but he's a top guy regardless.
Nolan Winter - Versatile center type who platooned last year while playing a bit of power forward. I kind of think he slots in at center and they go from there.
Jack Janicki - Kind of do-everything low-usage wing in the mold of a lot of UW shooting guards of yesteryear. Ideally he's a glue guy backup, but if he starts, wouldn't be a killer.
Xavier Amos - Was brought in to start at the 4, but wasn't consistent and played about 10 minutes per game. Has the skills to be a great starter, inconsistent starter or nice bench option, and he controls a lot of that. Mild transfer candidate because of how this year went.
Non-rotation guys who might have ability
(These guys are in that zone where we don't know if the staff has already decided they will have it, don't have it or might have it. Some could be future starters, some could be told they'll likely never have a role)
Cam Hunter - Last year's point guard transfer. He was supposed to be a functional starting option, but barely got in and looked lost when he did. An injury was a factor there, but I'm kind of skeptical he's a B1G rotation guy.
Daniel Freitag - Well regarded point guard recruit who was expected to fight for a rotation spot as a freshman. Came in completely not ready, and this year was basically a wash. Still has ability, but on the staff to decide what's there.
Jack Robison - Supposed to be a nice shooting wing. Probably not big enough to be an undersized stretch 4, so probably in the same space as Janicki. He all but redshirted, so we'll have to see if he/they think he could pop this year or next.
Riccardo Greppi - Big beefy backup center type they added late last year. Always kind of a project, so we'll see if they want to keep trying with him.
Chris Hodges
Chris Hodges has been at UW for four years, despite it being pretty clear he wouldn't be a thing after year 2. He stayed on the roster that season because attrition/portal challenges meant they didn't need the spot. Last year, they moved some money around to honor his scholarship. I'd assume his spot is contingent on a bunch of folks leaving.
Incoming freshmen
Zach Kinziger - Seems like a classic UW shooting guard. Will be interesting to see if he's the kind who can play 10-15 MPG off the bat. Would be helpful.
Will Garlock - 7-foot center with range out of the Madison area. Probably will be good at some point. Big key is if he's ready to be an 8-10 MPG player as a true freshman. If so, allows some flexibility elsewhere.
Hayden Jones - A 6-foot-7 international wing, seems like more a power wing, maybe with some shooting (curious if down the line he ends up in that 4 spot UW likes).
Portal wants
Point guard - UW was fine with a combined effort last year, but if you can get a guy who can really fill the role, you'd love to have it.
Big - This is an interesting one. Were I them, I'd want a 4/5 type who can work the perimeter, but also anchor a lineup. Granted, those are hard to find. If they like Winter/Garlock/Greppi at center, then maybe another 4 to round things out with Amos.
Wing - They know they have Janicki and Blackwell (who might help at point). Maybe you hope some combo of Robison, Jones and Kinziger helps there, but considering the last two wing adds were All-Conference guys, definitely worth trying to sell that again.
Wildcard - There were some insider comments they could try for a fourth guy. Maybe another frontcourt guy if you add a true center. Maybe just beef up the perimeter more. Maybe just add talent.
Other questions
Some Badger fans think they should proceed with Blackwell as a de facto point. This is insane to me, but maybe Gard likes it?
Which freshmen project as Year 1 "solid backups"? If Garlock or Kinziger look ready to be a rotation guys, it changes some of how you portal shop.
Do any non-rotation guys step up? If Freitag, Robison or Greppi can be even 8 MPG guys, it changes a lot of dynamics. Hunter at this point feels like mediocre insurance/a flyer.
Any portal surprises? UW fans are lusting after Owen Freeman, as the Badgers were in that recruitment. That seems deeply unlikely to me, but one curveball would change a lot.
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Minnesota hires alum Niko Medved, who some thought would get the job last time.
Finished 2nd in the Mountain West this year, one spot behind Richard Pitino ;)
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Well, not happy to be here, but that's life sometimes. UW has an interesting rebuild, but should return some solid pieces. Time to look closer.
Welcome even though I wish it had taken you another week to get here.
Grrr!
I had a long post similar to yours but for Ohio State all typed up and then Chrome froze and I lost it.
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Minnesota hires alum Niko Medved, who some thought would get the job last time.
Finished 2nd in the Mountain West this year, one spot behind Richard Pitino ;)
Weird trivia. The 3 new head coaches hired into the Big Ten this year were the last 3 head coaches hired at Drake University.
Niko Medved was the head coach at Drake right before Darian DeVries. Medved left after 1 year at Drake to go to CSU, and is now going to Minnesota.
Darian DeVries was the head coach at Drake right before Ben McCollum. Devries left for WVU and is now going to Indiana
Ben Mccollum was the coach at Drake this year and is now going to Iowa.
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https://twitter.com/TravisBranham_/status/1904309915839066286
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I hope Villanova gets exactly what they deserve in poaching a coach who is willing to skip a mandatory team dinner, the night before the Sweet 16, to talk to them about a job. Hope he does the same to them, and then takes the UNC job
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Well, I guess we can officially get this puppy started now.
Wabbit Season!
Duck Season!
Wabbit Season!
Duck Season!
PORTAL SEASON!!!! Blam!!!
The portal is open and we've already got several Big Players already making moves.
On the Purdue side, Myles Colvin, Berg, and Brian Waddell are gone (and Furst has graduated). Looks like they have picked up Oscar Cluff from South Dakota State.
Michigan appears to have lost both Pippen and Donaldson. Wolf likely gone to the NBA.
MSU has lost Holloman. That seems like a surprise.
Iowa has lost, what? The whole team?
Same with Indiana.
These roster turnovers are really starting to affect my love of the game.
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I already started this thread (https://www.cfb51.com/big-ten/2025-2026-b1g-basketball-thread/) because my team's BB season ended a few weeks before your team's BB season.
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Ah. Sorry. Didn't see it on the front page.
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Just saw the MSU Booker has entered the portal.
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Just saw the MSU Booker has entered the portal.
Holloman is the more surprising one. Booker didnt even play by the end.
The you have this
https://twitter.com/ChrisVannini/status/1907128111080075482
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Tre Donaldson in the portal as well, lol
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Badgers lost two of the four guys a figured might leave. One was a veteran transfer from last year who wasn’t healthy. The other was a well-regarded freshman the staff told at least a year away.
It’s interesting to see spots where coaches still have some degree of control vs. not. Badgers looking at 3-4 spots open, which isn’t too bad. Probably two more young projects and one transfer who had an up and down year to keep an eye on.
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so. there's hope for Hoiberg?
I don't think so
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@ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) what's the story with Holloman going to the portal, I was surprised.
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Seems as simple got one shot to get a big payday, and hes not going to get it as a backup PG.
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Just saw the MSU Booker has entered the portal.
He was never going to work out at Michigan State. In my opinion, he's not a P4 player. Far too soft. My kid, who is 6'5" and was an excellent, albeit not very athletic, high school player kicked Booker's ass just by being tough and physical with him. When undersized, small school high school players push you around, it doesn't bode well for Big Ten success. He should go somewhere like Butler or Loyola and be a solid rotation player.
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Seems as simple got one shot to get a big payday, and hes not going to get it as a backup PG.
Outside of how weird that’s going to look on a resume, that’s honestly one of those that makes a level of sense.
you stick around for three years. You’re not good enough to hold onto the starting spot (having someone benched, and you replace them only for you to in turn get benched). if your coach isn’t gonna pay you to be a valuable rotation player , then maybe you do look around.
I do wonder if there’s a situation where the coach might say “if you can’t find a better offer, we would love to have you back.“, But I know coaches don’t particularly like that behavior.
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I think he would be totally welcomed back, but it sounds like his agent already got him his money, and it won't really be an open recruitment.
Yeah, this is one of those that only feels weird given how recent this all is. He's a rotational piece, and a captain. But he's a backup on a very good P5 team. He could probably start at 75% of P5 programs. And hell, given how crazy it is now, I could see him starting at a very good school. If MSU didn't have Fears, Holloman would be a perfectly acceptable starting PG. But he's not REALLY a PG, and there are increasing rumors that Richardson is coming back for his sophomore year, so he likely won't be starting next year either.
I don't know what MSU's total NIL commitment is, rumors are it's top 12ish. But keeping around good 4 year reserves is a luxury almost no school can afford next year. because it's not just him. If you match what do guys like Carson Cooper do? Is it a locker room issue? Does he then leave to get an equivalent offer? I don't feel sorry for coaches, they are well compensated. But I don't blame the ones who don't want to do it anymore either.
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He was never going to work out at Michigan State. In my opinion, he's not a P4 player. Far too soft. My kid, who is 6'5" and was an excellent, albeit not very athletic, high school player kicked Booker's ass just by being tough and physical with him. When undersized, small school high school players push you around, it doesn't bode well for Big Ten success. He should go somewhere like Butler or Loyola and be a solid rotation player.
Yeah, he was a low top 100 kid, who had a growth spurt, and everyone just kind of assumed he was going to be this elite stretch 4. He never was able to defend or rebound. He wasn't that good of a shooter. And it seemed like he was struggling to grow into his new body. I think there's a good player in there, just maybe not with the physicality of being a big man in the Big Ten
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https://www.elevenwarriors.com/ohio-state-basketball/2025/03/155432/ohio-state-center-aaron-bradshaw-enters-transfer-portal-after-one-year-with-buckeyes
I don't know how much NIL the Buckeyes spent on Aaron Bradshaw but it was a complete waste. He was a 5* hped recruit to Kentucky where he was underwhelming as a freshman in the 23/24 season then came to Ohio State where he averaged 6 points, 2.7 rebounds, and 0.7 blocks as a sophomore in 24/25.
The Buckeyes also apparently swung and missed on Xavier Forward Dailyn Swain.
If anyone knows where I can find it, a website that simply tracks all the coming and going for Ohio State (and other schools but I'm obviously primarily concerned with Ohio State) would be helpful. Every time I try to type out something about Ohio State's status I get lost because I have to look up each player individually to try to figure out who is staying then look for internet rumors about possible additions.
Short version, leaving:
- SR G Meechie Johnson to the Portal to USCe (played at tOSU then USCe then tOSU now back to USCe)
- JR G Evan Mahaffey to the Portal to Akron (played at PSU then tOSU now Akron)
- SR G Micah Parrish to graduation.
- SR G Ques Glover to graduation.
- SO C Aaron Bradshaw to the Portal.
- SO C Austin Parks to the Portal. He couldn't get minutes from Bradshaw/Stewart/Njegovan so probably not a big loss.
I *THINK* that is all the known departures.
Additions:
- SO G Taison Chatman from injury.
- SO G Gabe Cupps from the Portal from Indiana. He has only one year of experience due to missing nearly all of 24/25 with a torn meniscus.
- FR(to be) G Dorian Jones a 4* HS Recruit who was recently named Ohio's "Mr Basketball".
- FR(to be) C A'mare Bynum a 4* HS Recruit out of Missouri.
By my count tOSU is down four guards and two centers and up three guards and one center so net they are -1 G and -1 C.
According to 247 Ohio State's class is #4 in the B1G and #29 nationally. Michigan is #1 in the B1G. Not to rain on Michigan's parade but, as I see it, these rankings are meaningless until final because one MAJOR Portal addition could probably push almost any team in the league ahead of Michigan. Furthermore, you really need to look at it as a "net" thing. Who knows what kind of money is being offered by our schools in the Portal which seems like a glorified auction.
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Maryland basketball hires Buzz Williams:
https://twitter.com/OdjHoops/status/1905680981572370697
(https://i.imgur.com/6zTuijn.png)
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Purdue's Camden Heide to the portal.
Losing Colvin was bad, but losing both hurts a lot.
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Purdue's Camden Heide to the portal.
Losing Colvin was bad, but losing both hurts a lot.
Hmmmm, that's a curious one to me.
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Purdue's Camden Heide to the portal.
Losing Colvin was bad, but losing both hurts a lot.
really surprised at Heide going in. Disappointing for sure.
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Maryland basketball hires Buzz Williams:
https://twitter.com/OdjHoops/status/1905680981572370697
(https://i.imgur.com/6zTuijn.png)
A&M is probably just a bad basketball school. We're like most other football centric schools, nobody really gives a shit about BB. Surprised it hasn't been said, but I think we lost our last coach (who at least won the SEC in BB) Mark Turgeon to Maryland as well.
Buzz probably reached a ceiling here at A&M, but he went out this year with a whimper. Gave up a couple of games to bad teams where we were winning handily, and played like complete crap in 3-4 other games that we should have easily won.
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I think he would be totally welcomed back, but it sounds like his agent already got him his money, and it won't really be an open recruitment.
Yeah, this is one of those that only feels weird given how recent this all is. He's a rotational piece, and a captain. But he's a backup on a very good P5 team. He could probably start at 75% of P5 programs. And hell, given how crazy it is now, I could see him starting at a very good school. If MSU didn't have Fears, Holloman would be a perfectly acceptable starting PG. But he's not REALLY a PG, and there are increasing rumors that Richardson is coming back for his sophomore year, so he likely won't be starting next year either.
I don't know what MSU's total NIL commitment is, rumors are it's top 12ish. But keeping around good 4 year reserves is a luxury almost no school can afford next year. because it's not just him. If you match what do guys like Carson Cooper do? Is it a locker room issue? Does he then leave to get an equivalent offer? I don't feel sorry for coaches, they are well compensated. But I don't blame the ones who don't want to do it anymore either.
A team like MSU this year has to be tough in the current era. They seemed to platoon at like 3-5 spots. That’ll be hard to hold together.
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Back end of UW bench may be cleared out. Sounds like the four-star freshman point was at least another year away. Transfer who was never healthy left, as did a guy who was allowed to hang on with the roster (UW, still trying not to directly cut kids). Rumors a late add project big is in that mix to depart.
I don’t think I’m the most concerned, but we’ll see.
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Now I know that I don't care about BB at A&M. I had the coaches mixed up, Turgeon never coached A&M in the SEC. He left in 2011, Billy Kennedy was our coach when we won the SEC. I had literally forgotten all about him, and he was one of the best coaches we ever had.
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A&M is probably just a bad basketball school. We're like most other football centric schools, nobody really gives a shit about BB. Surprised it hasn't been said, but I think we lost our last coach (who at least won the SEC in BB) Mark Turgeon to Maryland as well.
Buzz probably reached a ceiling here at A&M, but he went out this year with a whimper. Gave up a couple of games to bad teams where we were winning handily, and played like complete crap in 3-4 other games that we should have easily won.
I *THINK* that the reason Bama has improved dramatically of late is mostly tied in with the modern NIL/Portal system. There is a LOT more money in CFB than there is in CBB so any of the FB Helmets or near Helmets that choose to can spend a fraction of their FB Cash on BB and become at least decent at CBB.
If I had to guess, I would predict that over the next decade or so the FB powers will gain BB success and some of the BB Blue Bloods may find it hard to keep up.
Also, the football schools haven't generally been nearly as bad at BB as the BB powers have been at FB. Ohio State is probably #1 in BB success among FB schools all-time but Michigan, Florida, Texas, Oklahoma, and some others aren't too far behind. Here are top FB programs from CFN (https://collegefootballnews.com/college-football/ap-college-football-poll-greatest-programs-all-time), based on all-time AP finishes with all-time BB ranking from the AP via Yahoo (https://sports.yahoo.com/ap-poll-college-basketball-rankings-022230492.html):
- Ohio State, 10
- Alabama, 37
- Oklahoma, 22
- Notre Dame, 16
- Michigan, 13
- USC, 64
- Texas, 44
- Nebraska, 122
- Penn State, 116
- Tennessee, 44
- Georgia, 113
- LSU, 46
- Florida State, 46
- Auburn, 66
- Florida, 43
Your own aTm Aggies are #23 in football and #108 in BB so they more closely fit the mold you identified than most of the football powers.
Of the top-15 all-time football programs three are also top-16 in BB (#10 tOSU, #13 Michigan, and #16 Notre Dame). Most of the rest have at least a decent BB history with the big exceptions being Nebraska, Penn State, and Georgia. Also note that this year's F4 includes two top-15 all-time FB Schools (#14 Auburn and #15 Florida) and that this year's E8 included those two plus two more (#2 Bama and #10 Tennessee) so I think the FB schools in general are already improving their CBB stock.
Doing this the other way around shows that while the FB powers are generally at least decent at BB, that is NOT true in the reverse. Here are the top BB schools with their FB rankings:
- Kentucky, 61
- North Carolina, 40
- Dook, 44
- Kansas, 64
- UCLA, 18
- Louisville, 62
- Arizona, 69
- Indiana, 68
- Michigan State,
- Ohio State, 1
- Syracuse, 46
- Cincinnati, 72
- Michigan, 5
- Illinois, 49
- Villanova, 86 (Villanova is ranked right behind Iowa Pre-Flight which only existed for a few years during WWII.
Of the top-15 all-time BB programs, Ohio State (1) and Michigan (5) are far-and-away the best at FB. Next is UCLA (18) then UNC (40).
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Now I know that I don't care about BB at A&M. I had the coaches mixed up, Turgeon never coached A&M in the SEC. He left in 2011, Billy Kennedy was our coach when we won the SEC. I had literally forgotten all about him, and he was one of the best coaches we ever had.
He missed the tournament six times in eight years?
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He missed the tournament six times in eight years?
Are you asking me or telling me ? I have no idea. I only remember that he had several pretty good seasons here and we won ( co-champions) the SEC in BB.
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Also, I despise the whole notion of the NCAA tournament being some kind of high water mark. 64 teams or whatever, you could have a 32 team tournament and have the exact same final 4 99% of the time.
I remember a few years ago A&M was left out of the tourney after a dismal start to the season but a very strong 2nd half. Anyways, we go on to the NIT and nearly win the damn thing. I think we played in the championship game. I remember thinking I would much rather win the NIT than be a mediocre team in a field of 64 where you would probably only make it to the 2nd round.
Either way, I just never cared much for BB on any level.
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I don't think it's a high water mark, it's sort of a minimum standard mark. I view making the tournament like making a bowl game. It means you were at least mediocre.
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Nebraska’s first transfer portal addition of the 2025 cycle is officially in the books, as Iowa transfer Pryce Sandfort announced his commitment to the Huskers on Friday.
The 6-foot-7 wing took his first portal visit to Lincoln last week and also visited Illinois this past weekend. Ohio State had also been in the mix, as was a potential return to the Hawkeyes.
“Nebraska was one of my first calls,” Sandfort said. “Fred (Hoiberg) called me pretty much right away, and I knew it was going to be a place I wanted to look at again just from my previous relationships. Obviously, I’m really close with Fred. I grew up going to his camps (at Iowa State), so there was a really tight relationship there.
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I don't think it's a high water mark, it's sort of a minimum standard mark. I view making the tournament like making a bowl game. It means you were at least mediocre.
I think, depending on your program, it isn’t necessarily an annual minimum, but it’s definitely a big dividing mark. Like if you are a mediocre program like South Carolina or something, making it at least once every three years and more often than not twice every three years is a lot of job security.
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Badgers at a transfer from Virginia, Andrew Rhode.
Interesting player. Was a highly productive lead guard at a low Major. Transferred to UVA and was terrible two years ago. Last year he was a decidedly good spot up three-point shooter and handed out a lot of assists.
He’s 6-6, so it will be interesting to see if he spends more time as a wing, or doing some point stuff. Or if they can recruit a set or talent where he ends up being a very nice sixth man.
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the Huskers are a less than mediocre program and if they're not making the dance, Hoiberg should be gone!
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For Ohio State, making the Tournament is a minimum standard.
Matta did marvelous things at Ohio State. He made two F4's and an NCG. He won multiple league titles including a bunch in a row and at one point he had (IIRC) four or five straight S16's. He missed the Tournament twice and wasn't given the opportunity to miss it a third time.
Holtmann was a disaster at Ohio State but the catalyst to get rid of him was when it became apparent that the Buckeyes were about to miss the Tournament for the second straight year.
Buckeye coaches don't have to make it EVERY year, but they are on notice after one miss and generally gone after a second consecutive miss.
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I think, depending on your program, it isn’t necessarily an annual minimum, but it’s definitely a big dividing mark. Like if you are a mediocre program like South Carolina or something, making it at least once every three years and more often than not twice every three years is a lot of job security.
Yeah, I guess making a bowl is probably a little easier than making the tournament. I guess making the NCAA or NIT (under the old format) is probably on par with making a bowl.
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Yeah, I guess making a bowl is probably a little easier than making the tournament. I guess making the NCAA or NIT (under the old format) is probably on par with making a bowl.
I do think the bowl and tournament are for the majority of big programs a “head above water line.”
If a lot of programs are at least bowling most of the time, the coach is in OK shape. If you’re making the tournament basically every year, you’re in pretty good shape. And only a few programs have really high standards for making deeper runs.
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For Ohio State, making the Tournament is a minimum standard.
Matta did marvelous things at Ohio State. He made two F4's and an NCG. He won multiple league titles including a bunch in a row and at one point he had (IIRC) four or five straight S16's. He missed the Tournament twice and wasn't given the opportunity to miss it a third time.
Holtmann was a disaster at Ohio State but the catalyst to get rid of him was when it became apparent that the Buckeyes were about to miss the Tournament for the second straight year.
Buckeye coaches don't have to make it EVERY year, but they are on notice after one miss and generally gone after a second consecutive miss.
Yep. For Purdue, making the tournament is a minimum standard as well.
Painter had a four year stretch (07-08 through 10-11) where he finished first or second in the B1G. In those four years he made the S16 twice despite losing Hummel to season-ending injury twice. He was a young coach and was clearly a winner.
Then he missed the tourney two years in a row, was on the hot seat, and fans wanted him gone.
I firmly believe that the only reason he kept his job is that I think he went in to the AD and said "Here are the mistakes that I think I've made that got us here, and here is my plan to fix those mistakes." But a third year I'm 100% sure would have tanked him.
You just don't miss the tournament at programs like this. And if you do, you sure as HELL don't do it twice in a row.
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I firmly believe that the only reason he kept his job is that I think he went in to the AD and said "Here are the mistakes that I think I've made that got us here, and here is my plan to fix those mistakes."
(https://i.imgflip.com/9prdpl.jpg)
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Yep. For Purdue, making the tournament is a minimum standard as well.
Painter had a four year stretch (07-08 through 10-11) where he finished first or second in the B1G. In those four years he made the S16 twice despite losing Hummel to season-ending injury twice. He was a young coach and was clearly a winner.
Then he missed the tourney two years in a row, was on the hot seat, and fans wanted him gone.
I firmly believe that the only reason he kept his job is that I think he went in to the AD and said "Here are the mistakes that I think I've made that got us here, and here is my plan to fix those mistakes." But a third year I'm 100% sure would have tanked him.
You just don't miss the tournament at programs like this. And if you do, you sure as HELL don't do it twice in a row.
To fill in info on Ohio State / Matta, there did not appear to be anything equivalent to what you explained between Painter and the Purdue AD. Then Matta swung and missed on a few recruits and it just appeared that things were not going to turn around and that was that.
With Holtmann there wasn't as much leash because he didn't have any notable accomplishments prior to his missed Tournaments. Painter had those good years BEFORE he missed two straight. Matta had an even higher level of success* so when he missed a couple Tournaments I think the AD would/should have given him time to get right except that it just didn't look like there was any kind of plan.
*Matta's success:
Matta started at Ohio State for the 2004/5 season. They didn't go to the Tournament his first year but they did have a HUMONGOUS upset win over previously undefeated and #1 ranked Illinois in the last game of the regular season. Then, he had a 10 year run that would be good even at a Blue Blood (years are ending/Tournament year):
- 2006: B1G Champs, NCAA R32
- 2007: B1G Champs, B1G Tournament Champs, NCAA CG
- 2008: NIT Champs - We got screwed not getting a NCAA bid but made the best of it.
- 2009: NCAA
- 2010: B1G Champs, B1G Tournament Champs, S16
- 2011: B1G Champs, B1G Tournament Champs, S16
- 2012: B1G Champs, F4
- 2013: B1G Tournament Champs, E8
- 2014: NCAA
- 2015: R32
In ten years that is:
- 5 B1G Championships
- 4 B1G Tournament Championships
- 9 NCAA Appearances (and an NIT Championship the year we got screwed)
- 5 S16's including four straight from 2010-2013
- 3 E8's
- 2 F4's
- 1 NCAA CG Appearance
After the 2012/13 season I truly believed that we (Ohio State) had found what I refer to as "our Izzo". Matta was still under 50 and I thought he was a guy who would lead us to the promised land (Ohio State hasn't won a BB NC since Bobby Knight was a backup on the 1960 team) and keep our program among the best in the nation for decades.
Then things deteriorated. The Buckeyes were middling in the league the next three seasons (5th, 6th, 7th place finishes). They still made the Tournament the first two of those years but they were one-and-done in 2014 and 1-1 in 2015. Then they missed the Tournament altogether in 2016 and in 2017 they weren't even in the bubble conversation and it was all over.
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*Matta's success:
Reminiscing because I'm missing it because Ohio State BB has been crap for a decade now:
Matta's best two teams in terms of banners were clearly the Oden/Conley NCG team in 2006/07 and the F4 team in 2011/12. Both of those teams won the B1G Regular season title (2011/12 was a co-Championship) and they both made it to the B1G Tournament CG with the 06/7 team winning and the 11/12 team losing. Matta also had an E8 team in 2013 that was pretty good.
The teams above were good and had deeper NCAA runs but I will always believe that Matta's best team was the 2010/11 team. They finished the regular season 29-2/16-2 and won the B1G by two games over Purdue. Their only losses were both on the road to the B1G's second (Purdue) and third (Wisconsin) place teams. Not only that but they avenged both losses handily at home:
- They lost in Mackey by 13 but beat Purdue in Columbus by 23
- They lost in the Kohl Center by four but beat Wisconsin in Columbus by 28
The team then won the B1G Tournament and entered the NCAA Tournament at #1 in the polls at 32-2.
Something that @SuperMario (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1596) asked about recently, these were the NCAA games that I attended in Cleveland. Ohio State just obliterated #16 UT-San Antonio in the first round and #8 George Mason in the second round.
Funny story about GMU:
George Mason had made a deep run to the F4 as a #11 seed in the 2006 NCAA Tournament. At the arena in Cleveland a few years later in 2011 for the NCAA opening round games a lot of the George Mason fans were wearing T-Shirts that had "We are this year's George Mason" printed on them. It was a neat idea for a T-shirt but their fans were oddly confident for considering their second round opponent was the #1 team in the nation. Going into the second round game between Ohio State and George Mason the impression I got from the GMU fans was that they not only thought that their team could win, but they seemed to think it was reasonably likely that their team WOULD win. Ohio State just beat the living daylights out of them. The Buckeyes literally doubled them up in the first half and led 52-26 at halftime. Then the Buckeyes played a motley collection of backups, walk-ons, mascots, and cheerleaders in the second half and still outscored them 46-40 en-route to a 32 point 98-66 win.
The Kentucky loss in the 2011 NCAA Tournament is probably the most painful tOSU BB loss for me because that team could have won it all. In the S16 they just couldn't shoot. Some of that is a credit to Kentucky's defense, of course. Obviously Kentucky's defense was a bit better than George Mason's but the Buckeyes missed plenty of open looks as well. In spite of an unbelievably bad shooting night, the Buckeyes had a shot in the air to win the game at the buzzer. Unfortunately that shot missed and that ended the season for what was, IMHO Matta's best team and quite possibly the best team ever at Ohio State.
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To fill in info on Ohio State / Matta, there did not appear to be anything equivalent to what you explained between Painter and the Purdue AD. Then Matta swung and missed on a few recruits and it just appeared that things were not going to turn around and that was that.
With Holtmann there wasn't as much leash because he didn't have any notable accomplishments prior to his missed Tournaments. Painter had those good years BEFORE he missed two straight. Matta had an even higher level of success* so when he missed a couple Tournaments I think the AD would/should have given him time to get right except that it just didn't look like there was any kind of plan.
Full disclosure: I have no inside knowledge. I'm going based on what I saw, and a lot of what was reported on the Purdue fan blogs at the time.
IMHO what I think Painter did is admit not that he'd missed on recruits--but he'd hit on the wrong ones. For as young as he was, Painter is an old-school coach. Doesn't suffer fools or prima donnas. Some of his public statements around that time was that he'd chased STARZ instead of trusting his gut and finding "Purdue guys". Which then got him pilloried by the portion of the fandom that worried he'd self-ceiling'd the program by not setting his recruiting sights on the guys who could really move the needle.
I think it's also possible that he could have leaned on the distraction of his divorce during those two seasons, which was a situation that was already concluding.
I obviously don't know the Matta situation, but he was a lot older AFAIK. I don't know if he would have gone to the AD with a sense of contrition, like it's believed Painter did. And obviously Matta didn't have the OSU legacy sort of thing that Painter did, who played under Keady and was basically picked as the "heir in waiting" for Keady at an age FAR younger than you'd ever expect a Purdue coach to take the reins. I do think that had something to do with it... Like a "we invested in you knowing you were young and not experienced, so we'll accept that you're learning from your mistakes--just don't let it happen again" sort of thing. Matta likely wouldn't have been offered the same grace by a school as he didn't have the personal history to warrant it.
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All makes me feel better about Wisconsin...although I would like to see them advance beyond the second round.
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Yeah , making the NIT/NCAA is about as difficult as making a bowl. But in football the cut line is higher. Making an NCAA tournament is worth a lot more than an NIT. But everything under the CFP is about the same. If you have three straight 8-4 seasons, thats essentially the same as threee straight 6-6 seasons. But that essentially the difference between three straight second round exits and three straoght NITs
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If you have three straight 8-4 seasons, thats essentially the same as threee straight 6-6 seasons.
In terms of raw outcome, that’s probably true. In terms of general program vibe/coach security at most programs, I bet it’s not.
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(https://i.imgur.com/rtZj0vP.jpeg)
Someone needs to show this quote about college basketball do the decision-makers in college football.
It's from Jay Bilas' article about how he got flack for picking all #1 seeds this year, even knowing that it's almost never all #1 seeds.
He's an expert and/or spends tons of time on it and knows it's unlikely, but felt they'd all make it to the Final 4. But he also knows we're LUCKY to have the four best teams in it. He knows it rarely happens and that the formatting pushes against it.
Why in the holy hell devise a system in which you're LUCKY to have the best 4 teams playing it off to determine the champion?!? Why would you ever copy such a system?!? This is a fantastic argument against it.
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Why in the holy hell devise a system in which you're LUCKY to have the best 4 teams playing it off to determine the champion?!?
How are you sure that the four #1 seeds are the best 4 teams?
After all, you criticize pollsters all the time for merely arranging teams by number of losses. That includes the CFP committee, who are all supposed to be experts. You just assume that the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee is infallable and the four #1 seeds are always the best four teams in the tournament?
What if a #2 or #3 seed is actually a better team, but ran through a rough stretch during the regular season, and didn't have the resume to be a #1? Is it a travesty if they actually win the tournament because they weren't a #1 seed coming into it?
And if you *do* think the Selection Committee is infallible, why have a tournament at all? Why not declare the top #1 seed the national champion? After all, if they can be completely trusted to know who the best 4 teams are, why can't they be trusted to know who the best 1 team is?
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How are you sure that the four #1 seeds are the best 4 teams?
After all, you criticize pollsters all the time for merely arranging teams by number of losses. That includes the CFP committee, who are all supposed to be experts. You just assume that the NCAA Tournament Selection Committee is infallable and the four #1 seeds are always the best four teams in the tournament?
What if a #2 or #3 seed is actually a better team, but ran through a rough stretch during the regular season, and didn't have the resume to be a #1? Is it a travesty if they actually win the tournament because they weren't a #1 seed coming into it?
And if you *do* think the Selection Committee is infallible, why have a tournament at all? Why not declare the top #1 seed the national champion? After all, if they can be completely trusted to know who the best 4 teams are, why can't they be trusted to know who the best 1 team is?
Well, when you have them seeded, that's one thing. Then you get an expert picking them to all advance, because he views them as the best teams, and that's pretty good. So a group (committee) + expert(s) in agreement. Those seedings and predictions are based on a full season of 35 games or so. Maybe just have the 1-seeds play it off (hey, we had that in football!)
Your idea about crowning a national champion without a tournament is a great idea. Thank you.
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having a massive tournament in which upsets are inevitable. 6 rounds of 1-off games to advance.
Cinderellas, buzzer-beaters, exciting stuff.
And it's precisely what Bilas says it is: a spectacle
It's not a good method of which to determine the best team. It's a good method to get attention.
No, college football should not mimic it.
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attention is the goal
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Well, when you have them seeded, that's one thing. Then you get an expert picking them to all advance, because he views them as the best teams, and that's pretty good. So a group (committee) + expert(s) in agreement. Those seedings and predictions are based on a full season of 35 games or so. Maybe just have the 1-seeds play it off (hey, we had that in football!)
All I'm saying is that you think obviously this year it was right. But what about last year. Only two #1 seeds made it the Final Four. Only three #1 or #2 seeds advanced to the Elite Eight. Yet 12 of the #1-4 seeds made it to the Sweet Sixteen... So clearly the earlier rounds were mostly chalk.
Is that an indication that the tournament is broken because two of them didn't advance? Or is it perhaps evidence that maybe the selection committee is NOT quite good enough at this to say that we should just have the four #1 seeds duke it out and leave everyone else out of it? Maybe with ~330 teams that mostly don't play each other, it's not exactly easy to identify the four best teams?
Your idea about crowning a national champion without a tournament is a great idea. Thank you.
I'd love it in football. Make it a beauty pageant. I'm cool with that.
Sad it'll never happen, and it's going the wrong direction. That's one area we can agree.
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All I'm saying is that you think obviously this year it was right. But what about last year. Only two #1 seeds made it the Final Four. Only three #1 or #2 seeds advanced to the Elite Eight. Yet 12 of the #1-4 seeds made it to the Sweet Sixteen... So clearly the earlier rounds were mostly chalk.
Is that an indication that the tournament is broken because two of them didn't advance?
It's a combination of imperfect seeding, sure, but also that upsets are inevitable.
Fewer games = fewer upsets
The seedings are what they are, but at least they're based on a sample size of 35 games. The sin is in having 1-game rounds to determine a champion. When you're getting 8 seeds and 11 seeds making final 4s, that's less about seeding and more about the 1-game-and-you're-out design of the damn thing.
All I'm saying is that college basketball has a very poor system for determining it's champion, attention be damned, and that college football should obviously not copy it.
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He was never going to work out at Michigan State. In my opinion, he's not a P4 player. Far too soft. My kid, who is 6'5" and was an excellent, albeit not very athletic, high school player kicked Booker's ass just by being tough and physical with him. When undersized, small school high school players push you around, it doesn't bode well for Big Ten success. He should go somewhere like Butler or Loyola and be a solid rotation player.
Wow, UCLA for $1.5 million. Good for him. Maybe he figures it out, but Mick Cronin doesn't seem like the type who doesn't care if his bigs rebound or defend
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Michigan lands the #1 player out of the portal, a big from UAB.
Dusty May said he didn't want to run a portal program, but the problem is now, how can you not when you take a new job? He said he had to lean on the portal this year, or he wouldn't have had a roster, which is true. But unless you commit to tough times, and building from scratch, once you make that first team a portal team, you need to keep going back there because all of the guys he brought in are now gone, so his returning roster looks as bad as it did a year ago. Unless you had your job pre portal, you almost have to be a portal team, because you inherited nothing. And now that teams like Michigan, St. John's, and Louisville did what they did, and won quickly, I don't think the option of "patience because we don't want to be a portal team" is an option
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#9 for Florida is a massive douchebag. He is out there throwing elbows while simultaneously whining about every whistle
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I guess he's the only one.
So Florida doesn't have to play Duke? I'll take it.
*EDIT* You guys have a 6-page 25-26 basketball thread?!?! Jesus.
Exhibit 193483491 on how we're different.
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https://twitter.com/Verbose_Dutch/status/1909069662299512987
(https://i.imgur.com/2eXdo7Q.png)
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https://twitter.com/Verbose_Dutch/status/1909069662299512987
(https://i.imgur.com/2eXdo7Q.png)
Cool. my team’s new point guard is very experienced.
(Also, next year there won’t be that many kids with COVID years left, and the year after, they’ll be close to extinct)
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Hey, if you're never going to sniff the NBA, might as well milk the college NIL money as long as you can.
Besides, a lot of people go to college for 7 years.
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Cool. my team’s new point guard is very experienced.
(Also, next year there won’t be that many kids with COVID years left, and the year after, they’ll be close to extinct)
Sure, but the number of kids challenging NCAA years-of-eligibility rules in court, is going to start increasing.
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Besides, a lot of people go to college for 7 years.
I know, they're called doctors.
https://youtu.be/UOsQ2epsI2M?si=nLuHqpfQcF7dHs9h
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Sure, but the number of kids challenging NCAA years-of-eligibility rules in court, is going to start increasing.
Very possible. It’s funny because the two teams around the Covid year at Wisconsin actually started a pair of guys who played six years the old-fashioned way. Which of the time felt a hair more than mundane.
It’s also funny because both had the option to come back because of Covid, and they turned it down Because NIL wasn’t a thing back then.
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Auburn brining back Chad Baker-Mazara who will turn 26 during the season.
He is 3 months younger than Jaren Jackson Jr., who will be in his 8th NBA season. And 9 months younger than Luka Doncic
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I mean if you like minor league basketball, there is an outlet for you. Id prefer 22 year olds not play high school basketball, or 18 year olds play middle school basketball. But I guess if you can get paid to do so, nobody can stop your eligibility?
If I paid a 16 year old to play on my 12 year olds team, telling him no is restricting his earning potential
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Michigan lands the #1 player out of the portal, a big from UAB.
Dusty May said he didn't want to run a portal program, but the problem is now, how can you not when you take a new job? He said he had to lean on the portal this year, or he wouldn't have had a roster, which is true. But unless you commit to tough times, and building from scratch, once you make that first team a portal team, you need to keep going back there because all of the guys he brought in are now gone, so his returning roster looks as bad as it did a year ago. Unless you had your job pre portal, you almost have to be a portal team, because you inherited nothing. And now that teams like Michigan, St. John's, and Louisville did what they did, and won quickly, I don't think the option of "patience because we don't want to be a portal team" is an option
Apparently they paid him over $4 million, and have spent over $7 million on transfers thus far. That's roughly on par with being the #16 pick in the NBA Draft on a one year basis
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New Iowa coach Ben McCollum can now field an entire starting 5 from the players he has brought over from Drake. Banks, the 6th man of the year in the MVC, reportedly committed Friday.
There's a good chance this won't be the starting 5, since the #Hawkeyes also have a former 4-star recruit, Cooper Koch, on the roster. It does show how man players made the move.
(https://i.imgur.com/obu7T12.jpeg)
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(https://i.imgur.com/H40OCj3.jpeg)
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Purdue filled out their roster yesterday in the portal, a couple of good pieces 6'4" point guard from Israel, 18 year old w/ 4 years eligibility ... already played some pro ball and a good 3 pt shooting 6'7" wing. Boilers are going to be Top 3 preseason next year and expectations will be as high as our National Championship run last year.
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I’m interested when UW will land its stretch 4 type. Roster seems short on that spot unless one of the 6-5 guys gets notably stronger.
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Chad Baker-Mazara in the portal. Next year he will be 26, and at his 5th school
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Chad Baker-Mazara in the portal. Next year he will be 26, and at his 5th school
I wonder what Jay Bilas really thinks of the situation ... I don't listen to his games much anymore since there is no BIG on ESPN.
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(https://i.imgur.com/DxbdmEp.png)