CFB51 College Football Fan Community

The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on February 02, 2025, 08:34:23 PM

Title: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 02, 2025, 08:34:23 PM
PRIME OFF-SEASON FODDER!

Thanks to the expanded playoff, we're about to get a bunch more all-time great teams that happen to have multiple losses.

2024 Ohio State!!!

Teams like 1990 Miami, because of what they did to Texas, 2001 Florida, because duh, 2007 LSU as a NC, and many MANY others.

What are some of yours again?  Share if you've shared a team before or if there's another you think of, share them.

88 Auburn allowed only 7.4 ppg.  In their 2 losses, they allowed a total of 20 points. 

14 Oregon had an all-time great offense.  Maybe a perfect offense.  And lost twice.

In 08, from that 3-way tie in the Big XII South, both Texas Tech and OU finished with 2 losses each. 

Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2025, 09:34:47 AM
2002 USC.  Took both losses in September, probably playing better than OSU or Miami by the end.

Won 45 of 46 after taking that 2nd loss
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 03, 2025, 06:45:04 PM
2002 USC.  Took both losses in September, probably playing better than OSU or Miami by the end.

Won 45 of 46 after taking that 2nd loss
This would be a good poll.....when ranking teams at the end of the season, does it matter if they're "hot" or maybe lost early and look like world-beaters by the end?  Or are the final rankings simply ranking their seasons as a whole?
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 03, 2025, 06:45:31 PM
2002 USC.  Took both losses in September, probably playing better than OSU or Miami by the end.

Won 45 of 46 after taking that 2nd loss
This situation reminds me of the Georgia team that waxed the Colt Brennan Hawai'i team in the Sugar.  
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2025, 06:52:39 PM
I hate losing the urgency of the regular season, but I think it took us exactly one year to realize that the 12 team playoff will likely always result in the best team winning the title.  Some talking head calls them "Dr. Pepper Games", and the better team generally wins that game.  Football ain't basketball.  We aren't going to get "fluky" results like we get in the basketball tournament.  We are just going to give the most talented team second, third, fourth chances to prove it.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 03, 2025, 07:52:04 PM
Uhhh, are you joking?  I'm assuming you're joking.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: FearlessF on February 03, 2025, 07:54:42 PM
you don't think tOSU was the best team?
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 03, 2025, 08:33:56 PM
I think that when the playoff started, like 5 teams had a 15-20% chance at the NC.  Oregon could very well be the best team and had an off-day.  

Regardless of what happened this year, I don't find it any more likely that the "best team" is going to routinely win the NC in this format.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: FearlessF on February 03, 2025, 09:01:16 PM
the bucks may have had an off day vs the ducks the first time around

after all the games have been played, what team has the best resume?
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: bayareabadger on February 03, 2025, 09:16:25 PM
I was looking at Bama teams first. 

That 2013 team was really, really good. Only lost the kick six game and the “SEC not trying” invitational in a bowl shootout. 

The 2019 team was pretty feisty. Lost Tua, we’re good with Mac Jones, only dropped games to that LSU steam roller and in a shootout to Auburn with a couple pick sixes. 

And the 2021 team that lost of UGA was really, really good. But they lost their top two receivers by some point in the national title game
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2025, 10:29:48 PM
OSU was clearly the best team.  The more chances we give the best team, particularly in "Dr. Pepper games" the more often thats going to sort itself out.  If we wanted a meaningful regular season, we would have just let Oregon and Georgia play each other
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2025, 10:35:59 PM
I was looking at Bama teams first.

That 2013 team was really, really good. Only lost the kick six game and the “SEC not trying” invitational in a bowl shootout.

The 2019 team was pretty feisty. Lost Tua, we’re good with Mac Jones, only dropped games to that LSU steam roller and in a shootout to Auburn with a couple pick sixes.

And the 2021 team that lost of UGA was really, really good. But they lost their top two receivers by some point in the national title game
I kind of assumed we were talking 2 pre-postseason losses  
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: bayareabadger on February 03, 2025, 10:51:51 PM
I kind of assumed we were talking 2 pre-postseason losses 
He mentioned 2014 Oregon and 2008 OU in the OP. 
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 03, 2025, 10:57:30 PM
Who were the worst 2-loss teams of all time? 
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2025, 11:38:24 PM
He mentioned 2014 Oregon and 2008 OU in the OP.
Oh, then blah to the concept.  1998 Kansas State
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2025, 11:39:06 PM
Who were the worst 2-loss teams of all time?
I mean probably a random MAC team that lost the California Bowl
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2025, 11:44:11 PM
OSU was clearly the best team.  The more chances we give the best team, particularly in "Dr. Pepper games" the more often thats going to sort itself out.  If we wanted a meaningful regular season, we would have just let Oregon and Georgia play each other
I think in whatever form weve selected, the best included team has won it.  With both 2 teams and 4 teams, the best team didnt necessarily make it.  With 12 teams, thats out the window, but I think one year in, nothing has changed my mind that the best team to get in will win in it.

Thats why my biggest what if is if we had had a playoff in 2013.  The 2014 team was better, but the best teams were also in it.  The best teams in 2013 kept screwing up, that a great, but not elite MSU team, would have had a chance in a 4 team field.  In a 12 team field, that gave all of those better teams another shot?  No way.  it's the funny paradox of the expanded playoff. it gives more teams a chance to say they played in the playoff, but it actually eliminates the chances of one of them winning it in a weird year where 2-3 teams lose a stupid game or two
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 04, 2025, 07:04:26 AM
2014 OSU was most definitely not the best team, but they won it.  But they won 2 games and earned it.  They had a relatively shit defense for a NC-caliber team.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 04, 2025, 07:12:36 AM
OSU was clearly the best team.  The more chances we give the best team, particularly in "Dr. Pepper games" the more often thats going to sort itself out.  If we wanted a meaningful regular season, we would have just let Oregon and Georgia play each other
Yeah, statistically, this just isn't the case.  Including all of the best teams knocks each individual team's chances down by a lot.  The more games they have a 75% chance of winning or 60% chance of winning, the lower and lower their odds of winning the NC are.  They just benefit that everyone else's decrease by a lot, too.  But no team is LIKELY going to win the NC in this format.  The '95 Huskers would have a <50% chance at the start of this 12-team playoff. 

These things don't just "sort itself out" lol.  That's like suggesting karma is a thing and telling it o a starving child.

OSU split their 2 games with Oregon, lost to a mediocre UM team, and only got into the playoff thanks to the new format.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 04, 2025, 07:43:22 AM
The Oregon loss was by one point on the road to the number one team in the nation, and the revenge game at a "neutral" site was an absolute beatdown. 

Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: FearlessF on February 04, 2025, 08:24:14 AM
OSU split their 2 games with Oregon, lost to a mediocre UM team, and only got into the playoff thanks to the new format.
very true

but, once they were in they performed at a level that is hard to argue, they weren't the best
as I asked, after all the games were played - what team has the best resume?

Oregon?  Texas??  Georgia???  Bama????  The Irish?????
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: ELA on February 04, 2025, 08:32:49 AM
Did OSU ever fall out of #1 in SP+?
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: ELA on February 04, 2025, 08:42:05 AM
Yeah, statistically, this just isn't the case.  Including all of the best teams knocks each individual team's chances down by a lot.  The more games they have a 75% chance of winning or 60% chance of winning, the lower and lower their odds of winning the NC are.  They just benefit that everyone else's decrease by a lot, too.  But no team is LIKELY going to win the NC in this format.  The '95 Huskers would have a <50% chance at the start of this 12-team playoff. 

These things don't just "sort itself out" lol.  That's like suggesting karma is a thing and telling it o a starving child.

OSU split their 2 games with Oregon, lost to a mediocre UM team, and only got into the playoff thanks to the new format.
Unless their chance was 0% because they weren't in it.  Your last sentence is exactly my point.  Yes it reduces '95 Nebraska's chances, because '95 Nebraska was already in the 2 team field.  But the most common reason, by far, that the "best" team didn't win the national title wasn't losing a postseason game, it was not being included in the 2 or 4 team field.  That's never going to happen anymore.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: FearlessF on February 04, 2025, 09:04:44 AM
95 Nebraska would have said, "line em up"

we like our chances

how many teams do you think would have wanted a shot?
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: bayareabadger on February 04, 2025, 10:48:16 AM
Did OSU ever fall out of #1 in SP+?
No.

It still feels a little weird to call them the best all the way through.


they had the highest ceiling for the entire year. They didn’t play up to it against a lot of upper level opponents until the postseason. Then they did, in part because the quarterback stepped up.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: jgvol on February 04, 2025, 11:21:11 AM
From my eye --- OSU was clearly the best team.  That realization happened in Round 1 after seeing my Vols summarily dominated in every possible facet.

I knew about halftime of our game that OSU would run the table.  The annihilation of Oregon cemented that thought.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 04, 2025, 07:49:32 PM
95 Nebraska would have said, "line em up"

we like our chances

how many teams do you think would have wanted a shot?
All these modern defenses running a base-nickel wouldn't have a chance, lol.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 04, 2025, 07:51:56 PM
Unless their chance was 0% because they weren't in it.  Your last sentence is exactly my point.  Yes it reduces '95 Nebraska's chances, because '95 Nebraska was already in the 2 team field.  But the most common reason, by far, that the "best" team didn't win the national title wasn't losing a postseason game, it was not being included in the 2 or 4 team field.  That's never going to happen anymore.
Maybe the healthiest team is going to win the larger playoff.  Maybe the deepest. 

For me, when you have like 4-6 teams with a nearly-equal % chance of winning it before it starts, it's basically a flick of a spinner.  The piece of the pie it stops on doesn't crown themas being the best, just the champion.  It just means they happened to win it because someone is going to win it.  I know it's not romantic, but oh well.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 04, 2025, 08:01:42 PM
1995 Northwestern is an interesting team.  Great defense.  Crap passing game with only 1 receiving threat.  And lots of Darnell Autry, averaging 4.7 ypc.

Don't we all wish they beat Miami (OH)?  
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: jgvol on February 05, 2025, 10:07:28 AM
1990 Tennessee was a damn good team, loaded with talent.

Tough schedule -- finished 9-2-2 with a Sugar Bowl win.

And 2001 Tennessee should be included on this list for sure.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 05, 2025, 02:46:20 PM
For Ohio State the most recent team is obvious.  They had a one point road loss on the West Coast to a team that finished 13-1 and spent most of the year at #1.  Also, that loss was avenged with a 20 point beatdown in the CFP Quarter-Final/Rose Bowl.  

The other loss was a pretty much inexcusable home loss to a mediocre Michigan team but this team ended up with an all-time (for now) record number of wins over AP Top-5 opponents and if you look at the final poll, 2024 Ohio State:

With the 12-team CFP going forward that probably won't be too unusual but historically that is INSANE.  

2023:
This team finished 11-2 with a six point loss on the road to the eventual 15-0 NC and then an 11 point loss in a bowl game they didn't want to be in, without their starting QB.  This team was THISCLOSE to being in the CFP instead of Michigan so yeah, very good 2-loss team.  

2022:
This team finished 11-2 with a closer-than-the-score 22 point loss* to a cheating Michigan team that finished 13-1 (losing to the only decent team on their schedule that they didn't cheat against) and a one point loss to eventual NC Georgia in a game so close that Ohio State had a FG in the air as time expired that would have won it.  This team was THISCLOSE to a NC so yeah, very good 2-loss team.  

*I'm calling this "closer than the score" because it was a one score game midway through the fourth quarter then Michigan scored two late TD's to turn it into a blowout.  

2021 also had two losses but, IMHO, they weren't that good.  

2017 also had two losses but, IMHO, they weren't that good either.  

2016 same as above.  

2013 wasn't as good as the 2022-2024 2-loss teams but they finished with a 10 point loss (that was a REALLY close game) to MSU in the B1GCG and a five point loss to Clemson in the Sugar Bowl.  Both of those were games that easily could have gone the other way.  

2009 same as above.  

2007 I feel compelled to include because their losses were to a stout Illinois team and to LSU in the NC.  

2005 is probably one of the best 2-loss teams ever in terms of quality of losses.  They lost by a FG to eventual 13-0 NC Texas and by a TD on the road to a Penn State team that finished 11-1 and #3.  The losses were REALLY good but I think their only win over a team that finished ranked was the bowl win over Notre Dame.  

2003 same as above

1995 was a John Cooper special if there ever was one.  They got to 11-0 and #2 then gave up about a million yards to some human spelling bee in Ann Arbor and still only lost by one score then lost to Peyton Manning's 11-1 Vols in the Citrus Bowl.  A lot of older tOSU fans still call Tennessee "Tennecheat" because apparently the Vols wore cleats that didn't comply with regulations in that game.  In my view, it was a long time ago and I don't think Tennessee did it intentionally, we saw what real, premeditated, intentional cheating looks like more recently.  

1974 finished 10-2 with a "WTF" FG loss to MSU in East Lansing (MSU finished 7-3-1 and #12 so it wasn't THAT bad of a loss) and a one point loss in the Rose Bowl to a 10-1-1 USC team that finished #2.  Ohio State also handed Michigan their only loss of the year that year and Michigan finished 10-1.  

1972 is a lot like 1974.  They had a "WTF" loss to MSU in East Lansing (MSU finished 5-5-1) and they gave Michigan their only loss of the year.  They got blown out in the Rose Bowl but it was by a USC squad that finished 12-0 and #1 in the Nation.  

Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on February 06, 2025, 10:43:26 PM
Damn, and I thought UM under Bo was the king of 'almost.'  Maybe not.
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: FearlessF on February 07, 2025, 08:59:25 AM

i was gonna compile a list of Husker 2-loss teams from the 70's, 80's, and 90's but I'm lazy

the 1-loss list is king of almost
Title: Re: Revisiting best 2-loss teams of All-Time
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on February 07, 2025, 09:16:58 AM
Damn, and I thought UM under Bo was the king of 'almost.'  Maybe not.
No, it is us.  

I posted a thread about AP Poll history and (https://www.cfb51.com/big-ten/final-2024-ap-poll-trivia-and-minutae/):

Ohio State is the gold standard of consistency here.  They don't quite have the highs that Alabama and Oklahoma have but Ohio State's worst times are better than anybody's and it isn't remotely close.  If you ask Ohio State fans about the "bad times" they'll probably say the Cooper era and Earle 9-3 Bruce's decade.  Those weren't great but they were still good teams:

After Cooper's first four years (1988-1991) his teams were consistent league and even national contenders and consistently highly ranked.  

Bruce went 11-1 in his first year (1979) with a loss in the Rose Bowl as #1 to #3 USC.  After that his teams lost exactly three games each year for seven straight years.  Those years varied based on when the losses occurred.  In 1980, for example, they had an early OOC loss to UCLA and didn't lose again until losing the last two games.  Consequently, they were league and national contenders and in the top-10 pretty much all year.  Conversely, in 1982 their third loss was on October 9 so they spent most of the year unranked but finished #12 and on a seven game winning streak.  

When you are in the mix almost every year, you have a LOT of "almosts" and these two-loss seasons certainly aren't what most Ohio State fans think of when you ask about "almosts" that would be:
The above isn't even a complete list of Ohio State's 1-loss seasons.  I left out the ones where the loss wasn't close so it doesn't feel like an "almost".