CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Benthere2 on December 16, 2024, 01:41:56 PM
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just heard a little on the subject but another school shooting
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Live updates: Shooting at Abundant Life Christian School in Madison, Wisconsin | CNN (https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/abundant-life-christian-school-shooting-madison-12-16-24/index.html)
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I don't understand how these kids obtain the guns. It's maddening.
LOCK YOUR GUNS!
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I don't understand how these kids obtain the guns. It's maddening.
LOCK YOUR GUNS!
Exactly. Two things make me absolutely angry with these stories.
A) The aholes that take this moment to immediately put a political spin on it before anyone knows the details.
B) how these kids get firearms. I have two safes in my house and there's absolutely zero chance in hell any of my kids are ever getting in them.
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Folks here are responsible about guns and other things. We probably all are pretty good drivers too. A lot of folks think the gun is "hidden", or even don't care.
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My wife turned on the news last night over dinner, which we rarely do. The Madison Congressman was on giving his take, which was entirely about how we needed gun control, of some sort. My wife noted he was rather vague.
These events, as noted above, always generate this sort of commentary. And then ....
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Biden calls for tougher gun-control laws after Madison school shooting (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/local/wisconsin/2024/12/16/madison-school-shooting-biden-urges-tougher-gun-control-laws/77034377007/)
Biden noted steps his administration has taken to combat gun violence, including the passage of the most significant gun-safety legislation (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2022/06/24/gun-safety-bill-passes-house/7720789001/) in nearly 30 years. “But more is needed,” he said.
He called on Congress to pass “commonsense” gun safety laws, such as universal background checks, a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, and a national “red flag (https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/politics/2022/05/28/uvalde-red-flag-guns-congress-shootings/9944084002/)” law that would allow police or family members to get a court order to temporarily confiscate firearms from a person who may present a danger to others or themselves.
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It might be easier to take Biden seriously if he didn't pardon folks convicted of gun crimes.
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Biden's all like
(https://www.shanethegamer.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Weekend-at-Beries-1536x864.jpeg)
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I think these politicians all keep a press release already written for any larger gun event, their staff then fill in the blanks of the details.
They all say they want common sense gun control, the steps involved often have naught to do with the actual shooting. Knee jerk.
Predictable.
As with many things these days, any "common sense" actual discussion of the topic is impossible because both "sides" are so entrenched in their mottos.
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It might be easier to take Biden seriously if he didn't pardon folks convicted of gun crimes.
Or if he got back to that crime bill he wrote during the Clinton Administration.
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So, this 15y/o girl got the gun somehow.
If it was obtained from an unlocked position, the gun's owner should also be charged with murder.
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So, this 15y/o girl got the gun somehow.
If it was obtained from an unlocked position, the gun's owner should also be charged with murder.
Hmmm, now that’s an interesting gun control approach.
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It happened in Georgia, the father was charged as well.
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The parents of the shooter at Oxford, MI HS were charged with and convicted of involuntary manslaughter for failing to secure the guns.
https://apnews.com/article/james-crumbley-jennifer-crumbley-oxford-school-shooting-e5888f615c76c3b26153c34dc36d5436
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Yes, there have been a few cases. Manslaughter, no. MURDER. Period.
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Hmmm, now that’s an interesting gun control approach.
Gun control = control your guns(s). It ain't that hard.
Much like SM, mine are locked up. Anyone but me and my wife would have a hard time even finding the safes.
(Except the 44 I keep in the nightstand, which gets put away if we have young visitors.)
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Dilemma:
I support harsher penalties for gun owners who don't secure their guns and they wind up being used in these horrific tragedies. Not murder charges, as Badger notes, murder is a very specific charge and it doesn't apply, but harsh penalties with severe sentencing nevertheless.
I also have one pistol that's pretty quickly accessible to me in our bedroom, and my reasoning is that's why we have that one, for midnight burglars when I can't waste time getting into a safe. (That's never happened and hopefully never will, but better safe than sorry and all that.) Where it's kept, a child of less than 12ish years or so could not retrieve it, and it's hidden from view and not anywhere we think would ever make anyone assume "Oh, I bet there's a gun there, or any object, I should check that out." And nobody even knows about it except for me and my wife. Yet I consider it quickly and easily retrievable for me, should I ever need it.
We don't have kids in the house. Just one stepson in his 20's. I still don't know if we did have kids if it's a good idea. I also don't want all my home defense weapons in a safe. I mean, if I wake up in the middle of the night to trouble, the intruder already has the drop on me, I don't want to be at a further disadvantage. I don't know if I have a good solution or not. It's worked for us with no problems thus far, but like I say, we don't have kids.
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For us there is enough time for me to grab the 44 to deter, which one shot would do, while the wife has time to hit the safe to grab the shotgun, which would be used to eliminate the problem. The house would be a mess...
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I feel pretty fortunate in thinking our unit would be very tough to access. Maybe I'm wrong.
The firearms are locked up.
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We're in a 24-hour gated community with a Lee County Sheriff assigned to work the gate in the evenings (this is not cheap).
I doubt I'd ever need it, but we have societal issues that make me uncomfortable.
My neighbor is a retired police chief from Illinois.
We're probably good.
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Gun control = control your guns(s). It ain't that hard.
Much like SM, mine are locked up. Anyone but me and my wife would have a hard time even finding the safes.
(Except the 44 I keep in the nightstand, which gets put away if we have young visitors.)
And attaching strong laws to make folks control them is fun control legislation.
(I enjoy this place because it was helpful to learn the most folks here are for gun control as a concept, just not a particular kind of vibe that gets attached to it)
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And attaching strong laws to make folks control them is fun control legislation.
(I enjoy this place because it was helpful to learn the most folks here are for gun control as a concept, just not a particular kind of vibe that gets attached to it)
I think everyone is for that.
My form of gun control is to control my legal guns. I don't need someone else to control them for me. You know, my vibe.
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I think everyone is for that.
My form of gun control is to control my legal guns. I don't need someone else to control them for me. You know, my vibe.
You also said the government needs to have draconian penalties if you don’t. So someone else is helping.
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I agree.....guns should be locked up. Mine are, and only the wife and I have a key to the cabinet.
But, fortunately, I assume......none of us have a mentally wrecked, crafty teen parading around the house looking for a way to subvert the gun control measures we've put in place in our own homes.
These variables should be weighed out on a case by case basis, IMO.
I'm not in favor of just convicting the parents off the jump.
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I'm not in favor of just convicting the parents off the jump.
Yup, some level of gross incompetence or negligence or indifference should be demonstrated.
Say the gun was locked up, but the kid worked out the safe combination, or stole the key, or drilled it out, or even that the owner just failed one time to completely lock the safe, or the kid assaulted the owner (somehow) to obtain the weapon. Shades of light black.
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... or we could just ban "assault weapons" ...
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We're in a 24-hour gated community with a Lee County Sheriff assigned to work the gate in the evenings (this is not cheap).
I doubt I'd ever need it, but we have societal issues that make me uncomfortable.
My neighbor is a retired police chief from Illinois.
We're probably good.
I'm in the deepest part of my development on a cul de sac. My neighbor next to me is a federal judge one of the requirements of the city is having a squad car check on his house 3 times a day, so i'm probably good but my only concern would be bitter criminal tracks him down and gets the wrong house. My 2nd safe is 6 steps from my bed with a Mossberg 590a1 ready in case of emergency simply because I'm too nervous to keep anything else around the nightstand since the kids have gotten older. My close friend is a former special forces sniper and put together everything needed on my Daniel Defense DDM4 V7 so if the shotgun wasn't the right item, there would be a nice option.
That being said, anyone that has any sort of firearm and kids and doesn't have it safely secured, should absolutely be charged in situations like this. Don't punish the responsible humans, punish the idiots. And good god, don't let our politicians talk about a topic when they're clearly dense on it, throwing out words like assault weapons.
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To a degree, I’ve become a nihilist about much of this. There isn’t a strongly majority taste for making guns more scarce or harder to get. There isn’t much way to force people to be hyper responsible en masse. They never have been and never will be.
And we have a society that both fetishizes some kinds of violence and perpetually overblows how much of a risk it is in daily lives. So folks will probably get shot senselessly somewhat often. You’d have to take out some of the major contributors to shift that, and I don’t think we really want to.
(there’s also obviously the constitutional right thing, which is its own sticky space)
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Well put, I am afraid to say.
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You also said the government needs to have draconian penalties if you don’t. So someone else is helping.
Not helping me. Don't need it.
Something has to give here.
We've gone from 50 school shootings to 350 in TEN years. Problem!
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Like many problems, the solution is not obvious in practicable terms.
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To a degree, I’ve become a nihilist about much of this. There isn’t a strongly majority taste for making guns more scarce or harder to get. There isn’t much way to force people to be hyper responsible en masse. They never have been and never will be.
And we have a society that both fetishizes some kinds of violence and perpetually overblows how much of a risk it is in daily lives. So folks will probably get shot senselessly somewhat often. You’d have to take out some of the major contributors to shift that, and I don’t think we really want to.
(there’s also obviously the constitutional right thing, which is its own sticky space)
They are not "easy" to get, legally.
They fall into the wrong hands too often - mainly in places that have strict gun controls.
Weird stuff.
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Not helping me. Don't need it.
Something has to give here.
We've gone from 50 school shootings to 350 in TEN years. Problem!
Guns are only part of the problem. We have other societal factors most people don't care to talk about.
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They are not "easy" to get, legally.
They fall into the wrong hands too often - mainly in places that have strict gun controls.
Weird stuff.
Doesn’t sound like they’re hard to get.
that again, the constitution literally says the default is you should be able to get them.
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Guns are only part of the problem. We have other societal factors most people don't care to talk about.
Well we like talking about them! Which ones are you thinking about?
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When I bought guns at a gun shop, I thought it was pretty easy. The BG check took maybe 3 minutes. I paid cash. Showed state ID. Done.
Every freedom in the BoR has limitations, 2A is no different.
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Well we like talking about them! Which ones are you thinking about?
A number of things that could loosely go in a bin labeled "Mental Health."
Our gun laws (along with a bunch of other stuff) only work as intended with a sane and Western-valued population. I'd argue both of those things are eroding and have demonstrable correlation over the time span Badger is talking about.
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When I bought guns at a gun shop, I thought it was pretty easy. The BG check took maybe 3 minutes. I paid cash. Showed state ID. Done.
Every freedom in the BoR has limitations, 2A is no different.
Yep. But the thumb on the scale usually falls toward freedom, or at least ideally it does. (Or at least that’s one where it tends to fall toward freedom for reasons. Others less so)
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They are not "easy" to get, legally.
They fall into the wrong hands too often - mainly in places that have strict gun controls.
Weird stuff.
Took me 9 months to get one of mine because it was a SBR. I have a very clean background and possible only red flag is living overseas for 2 years, but ATF certainly took their time with me.
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Guns are only part of the problem. We have other societal factors most people don't care to talk about.
Exactly this. I don't know, how about the erosion of families? Maybe, just maybe, tearing apart the idea of a classic family structure and allowing Hollywood, video games and the music industry make violence, drug dealing and crime and other things "sexy" has distorted the healthy view of reality?
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A Madison product (hasn't been there in a long time, but back when I was on campus, the article about Jesus turning tap water into fine imported beer at a kegger was a classic). This is also one of their best:
(https://i.imgur.com/bZ65vZB.png)
The Onion (https://theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527/)
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(https://i.imgur.com/G8R45Fu.png)
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Doesn’t sound like they’re hard to get.
that again, the constitution literally says the default is you should be able to get them.
Depends on where you live. In Illinois it is very hard to get a legal gun (and much easier to get one illegally).
Florida was harder when we moved here, but you still have a waiting period of 5 days for background check unless you have the gun permit (which we do). Now you no longer need a gun permit to conceal carry, which I don't like. Everyone should have some training at least.
It's weird to me that you have to get a lot of training to drive a car, but zero training to drive a boat.
Or to have a kid or to get married.
Lots of weird shit.
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(https://i.imgur.com/KkB5Y90.jpeg)
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Yes, we have societal problems that contribute to this, but they aren't video games, Hollywood, rap music, etc. Literally every other western country has those same things, but not the same gun violence problem. We do have (1) easier access to firearms than most countries, and (2) a lot more of them spread throughout the country. Is that the sole cause? No. Is that a significant contributing factor? Absolutely. Is there a realistic way to dial the amount of guns back? Probably not. But restrictions on sales, including types of weapons, accessories, and waiting periods/background checks applied to all sales, not just storefront sales could help. Most gun violence in the US is with handguns, but the kinds of mass shootings that make the news are often committed with AR-15s and similar weapons. There is no doubt that high capacity magazines, the kind of accuracy you only get with a long gun, and rapid firing capability increase the lethality of firearms in mass shooting events.
Are there other awful societal factors, like the copycat effect? Yup. We see this with suicides: once someone does it, others do it. SFIrish works in communications for a transit agency. When there is publicity of someone commiting suicide by transit, studies show a significant uptick of more transit-related suicides. Would those people have commited suicide anyway? Maybe. But guns and trains are both rather final compared to other possible methods.
There also appears to be a uniquely American attachment to violence, and in particular gun violence, that is cultural, and comes from somewhere other than video games, Hollywood, etc. Perhaps its a copycat effect, writ large. The way of the gun, and all that. Not sure the cause, not sure how to address, but as BAB points out, there is a lot of fear out there about random violence that is really quite rare. Most shootings occur between people who have relationships with each other. I chuckle a little at the handgun for you and the shotgun for the spouse. Not saying this will happen to any of you, but my aunt nearly killed my uncle when they "heard something" that he immediately went to investigate, handgun in hand. Then she heard him, after having grabbed the shotgun, and blazed away. Fortunately, she missed. There was no intruder.
The fear of the random act of violence leads to a lot of people owning firearms, and a lot of people owning firearms leads to more access to firearms, and more access to firearms leads to more firearm-related violence. These are connected, but breaking that chain is a difficult task.
And most shootings are not "mental health" issues, in the sense of someone with a clinical mental health problem. There is a different between that (a clinical issue), and someone who snaps. That's why it makes sense to restrict firearms access for people with demonstrated anger management issues (domestic abusers, for instance).
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The speed with which someone can swap out a magazine with most semiautos makes capacity limits, to me, seem pointless. In close quarters, one could be very lethal with a shotgun and two revolvers and speed loaders. Once a shotgun is fired inside everyone is going to be going to ground, I doubt many folks would look up and see if the shooter is reloading. It would be horrific.
I have an idea neither side would like, which might be one point in its favor, but I'm not sure it's really a good idea and it isn't workable.
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Yes, we have societal problems that contribute to this, but they aren't video games, Hollywood, rap music, etc. Literally every other western country has those same things, but not the same gun violence problem. We do have (1) easier access to firearms than most countries, and (2) a lot more of them spread throughout the country. Is that the sole cause? No. Is that a significant contributing factor? Absolutely. Is there a realistic way to dial the amount of guns back? Probably not. But restrictions on sales, including types of weapons, accessories, and waiting periods/background checks applied to all sales, not just storefront sales could help. Most gun violence in the US is with handguns, but the kinds of mass shootings that make the news are often committed with AR-15s and similar weapons. There is no doubt that high capacity magazines, the kind of accuracy you only get with a long gun, and rapid firing capability increase the lethality of firearms in mass shooting events.
Are there other awful societal factors, like the copycat effect? Yup. We see this with suicides: once someone does it, others do it. SFIrish works in communications for a transit agency. When there is publicity of someone commiting suicide by transit, studies show a significant uptick of more transit-related suicides. Would those people have commited suicide anyway? Maybe. But guns and trains are both rather final compared to other possible methods.
There also appears to be a uniquely American attachment to violence, and in particular gun violence, that is cultural, and comes from somewhere other than video games, Hollywood, etc. Perhaps its a copycat effect, writ large. The way of the gun, and all that. Not sure the cause, not sure how to address, but as BAB points out, there is a lot of fear out there about random violence that is really quite rare. Most shootings occur between people who have relationships with each other. I chuckle a little at the handgun for you and the shotgun for the spouse. Not saying this will happen to any of you, but my aunt nearly killed my uncle when they "heard something" that he immediately went to investigate, handgun in hand. Then she heard him, after having grabbed the shotgun, and blazed away. Fortunately, she missed. There was no intruder.
The fear of the random act of violence leads to a lot of people owning firearms, and a lot of people owning firearms leads to more access to firearms, and more access to firearms leads to more firearm-related violence. These are connected, but breaking that chain is a difficult task.
And most shootings are not "mental health" issues, in the sense of someone with a clinical mental health problem. There is a different between that (a clinical issue), and someone who snaps. That's why it makes sense to restrict firearms access for people with demonstrated anger management issues (domestic abusers, for instance).
We've practiced the drill many times (unarmed) with my "little" 44 and her shotgun, even in the dark. Commands are involved heavily in that drill.
My son (the Marine) encouraged us to do it, and then he taught us.
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The speed with which someone can swap out a magazine with most semiautos makes capacity limits, to me, seem pointless. In close quarters, one could be very lethal with a shotgun and two revolvers and speed loaders. Once a shotgun is fired inside everyone is going to be going to ground, I doubt many folks would look up and see if the shooter is reloading. It would be horrific.
I have an idea neither side would like, which might be one point in its favor, but I'm not sure it's really a good idea and it isn't workable.
Bring it.
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My "favorite" gun story was back in the day, I woke up around 5 AM one moring hearing this "BANG!", pause, "BANG!", more of a thump really. It kept going. I was alone in the house and had left my phone downstairs. THUMP!!!!
I thought someone was trying to break in. I had a 9 mm at hand, so I get it, wondering if somehow a kid had come home from college, or something. THUMP!!!
I go down the stairs, carefully, silently, not locked and loaded but thinking about it, it was loaded but not chambered. I swing around like in the movies looking for anything, trying to get to my phone which was in my office. I see nothing .... THUMP!!!!! Someone or something is at the back door, which are French doors. I see nothing, lights off, just starting to be dawn so it was a bit dim. THUMP!!!
I get to my office and get my phone and .... THUMP!!! About the time I'm calling the popo, I see a dang BIRD thumping into my back window, he saw his reflection I guess. STUPID BIRD!!!!
I didn't shoot it, or anyone, or my foot at least, or the police.
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We had that with a cardinal for a couple of years here. Drove me bird crazy.
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So, my "idear" is this:
To possess a handgun, you must be licensed, a process which involves a BG check and some training, I'm thinking something like 25 hours. I had 15 hours for my CCL.
You get a license with a photo and biometrics, you can then present it to buy a pistol, you can carry a pistol anywhere there are no manned metal detectors, in the country, open carry. concealed carry, you are part of the "militia" in effect. The license is good for say ten years and is renewed by an authorized person who basically checks to see if your eye sight is OK and your brain is working OK.
Being caught with a pistol and no license means hard time. Police can search on suspicion of someone's carrying, an quick external pat down after first asking for said license. The training emphasizes legal requirements including locking the gun up when not in possession.
Very few homicides and almost no suicides are committed with long guns, so I'd focus on "short ones" suitably defined, no attachments to make one a "long gun". Maybe at some point some restrictions on some kinds of long guns might be considered if they make any sense, but a lot of rifles that don't look like an AR-15 are just as deadly.
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The speed with which someone can swap out a magazine with most semiautos makes capacity limits, to me, seem pointless. In close quarters, one could be very lethal with a shotgun and two revolvers and speed loaders. Once a shotgun is fired inside everyone is going to be going to ground, I doubt many folks would look up and see if the shooter is reloading. It would be horrific.
It isn't a magic bullet, but it makes a difference. Yes, a well-trained (or even moderately well-practiced) person can swap magazines in a hurry, and a well-planned attack (a well-armed person) can compensate for limitations imposed by not having large capacity magazines, but seconds matter in these events, and having to swap a magazine twice, as opposed to not at all (having 10-round mags vs. a 30-round mag--for a handgun more likely a 7-round mag vs. a 14-round mag), gives the police more seconds to deal with the shooter. Anyone who has practiced bounding understands this. This is the kind of change that is intended to make mass shootings harder/less lethal. It won't stop them. But less lethal is a pretty big deal for the people on the receiving end. And yes, people can swap magazines quickly, but when the stress level is through the roof (and for most people involved in a shooting it is), what is a pretty easy thing to do can become pretty difficult.
Now, getting to reality, there are already so many large-capacity mags out there in the world that maybe it's too late. But I don't think so--again the point is to make it harder; there is no making it impossible.
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There also appears to be a uniquely American attachment to violence, and in particular gun violence, that is cultural, and comes from somewhere other than video games, Hollywood, etc. Perhaps its a copycat effect, writ large. The way of the gun, and all that.
While i don't agree with some of your statement, but I understand most of the perspective, I think this part is very disconnected. Do you think there's no gun violence in Mexico, South America, Africa, Middle East?
Secondly, yes, there are a lot of contributing factors beyond just video games and hollywood, but you also cannot discount those from contributing to "the way of the gun." They help breed that cultural mentality.
Lastly, go down the rabbit hole of the amount of "medical" things injected and prescribed into the American body vs the rest of the world, with additional research into the amount of chemicals in our food supply compared to the rest of the world. Again, people can say the easy fix is to put guy restrictions in place and I view that the same way I view putting a band-aid on the stomach of someone with internal bleeding.
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We had that with a cardinal for a couple of years here. Drove me bird crazy.
wow.. if you ever meet my wife in person, you should mention that. An entire summer when we had our first child, we had this problem. My mom is in love with cardinals and so was my grandma so I felt awful if i were to shoot it. We tried everything. Reflectors, put foil on the windows, wind chimes, pie tins, you name it. The thing started pounding on the windows at 4 am every day, which is awful when you already aren't sleeping from a newborn.
The only thing that worked months later, was putting up a window bird feeder. It then ironically stopped knocking on the window. If only we tried that first.
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While i don't agree with some of your statement, but I understand most of the perspective, I think this part is very disconnected. Do you think there's no gun violence in Mexico, South America, Africa, Middle East?
Of course there is gun violence elsewhere (particularly Central and South America), but controlling just a little for poverty and stability, the US is off the charts compared to "peer" countries. It doesn't make me feel any better that Jamaica, El Salvador, and Columbia have a worse gun violence problem.
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I do dislike the term "gun violence" because guns are not violent alone. My gun isn't gonna get up and shoot me.
It's violence. Knives. Bats. SUV's. Pressure cookers. Cast iron pans. Etc. All deadly weapons.
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Violence with a gun is orders of magnitude different than violence with a frying pan. Can they both be deadly, of course. Are they remotely the same thing? No.
Violence with an SUV? Yes, that's also a problem (although more often one due to a lack of care than a specific intent).
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wow.. if you ever meet my wife in person, you should mention that. An entire summer when we had our first child, we had this problem. My mom is in love with cardinals and so was my grandma so I felt awful if i were to shoot it. We tried everything. Reflectors, put foil on the windows, wind chimes, pie tins, you name it. The thing started pounding on the windows at 4 am every day, which is awful when you already aren't sleeping from a newborn.
The only thing that worked months later, was putting up a window bird feeder. It then ironically stopped knocking on the window. If only we tried that first.
I put the screens back up on the lower windows and then that stick-on cling window frost. Problem solved.
Before that I tried everything, including scary pictures like this.
(https://i.imgur.com/ZhCdWik.jpeg)
Didn't help.
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Violence with a gun is orders of magnitude different than violence with a frying pan. Can they both be deadly, of course. Are they remotely the same thing? No.
Violence with an SUV? Yes, that's also a problem (although more often one due to a lack of care than a specific intent).
I think about Waukesha and Boston.
Some people are just killers.
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I think about Waukesha and Boston.
Some people are just killers.
It's true. We can't rid the world of violence, even if we rid the world of people. It turns out animals are violent, too. Heck, storms can be violent.
I'm a cyclist. I ride my bike to work 3-4 times a week, and worry everyday about the crazy things I see people do in cars. The carelessness and recklessness is scary. But firearms--not motor vehicles--are the #1 killer of teens and children in the U.S. That's stunning, particularly given how ubiquitous traveling in cars is (and how bad so many drivers are).
Lingering for a moment on the difference between gun violence and violence committed with other tools. The purpose firearms exist is to kill things. Literally. In fact, there aren't really other uses for them. One could suggest target shooting, but what is the purpose of target shooting? To show prowess with the firearm, whose purpose is to kill (animals or humans).
That's not true for anything else on your list. Could we have a katana violence problem? Yes, I suppose so, but somehow we don't. (To be clear, someone was killed in my county with a katana within the last couple of years, it was really gruesome, happened on a public street in broad daylight. WTF.) Same for a bow and arrow violence problem. I'm sure there are bow and arrow murders committed, but it's not exactly an epedemic.
So yes, gun violence is different.
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The purpose firearms exist is to kill things. Literally. In fact, there aren't really other uses for them.
I would say another firearm use would be to prevent being killed by things.
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Kinda like the purpose behind nuclear weapons is to deter nuclear war? Sure.
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Kinda like the purpose behind nuclear weapons is to deter nuclear war? Sure.
Ok, Mike Tyson approaches you on the street, intent on kicking the ever living shit out of you, and could certainly kill you with his bare hands......, or he has a kinfe.....whatever. (Choose your own adventure)
Pull out a gun, point it at him. He decides, hmmm.....abort mission. He flees. You are alive. No shot was fired. A gun prevented a death (yours), and the gun itself killed no one.
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The carelessness and recklessness is scary. But firearms--not motor vehicles--are the #1 killer of teens and children in the U.S. 7
That's a CDC statistic and complete BS. Their terminology is "fire-arm related" death. If you believe their data after their bs usage of data during Covid, I don't know what to tell you.. but yeah, the guy that died in a plane crash definitely died of Covid. And I'm sure his 14 year old in the back of the plane was fire-arm related since his dad owned a 9mm.
When you actually dig into the gun deaths in our country with teens, it is related to two specific areas. Suicide and gang violent deaths. And neither are those are the fault of the gun and far more specifically related to family and drug issues and you can throw in economic issues that correlate to the south america and Mexico areas that have violence due to economic reasons. Most interesting, is the deaths that don't fall under suicide are most common in areas with most restrictive gun laws.
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Now you're just being silly. A frying pan doesn't cook without you using it to cook, but it is designed to cook.
So you own your firearm for protection. Why? Because it kills. That's what makes it the deterrent that you're using it for.
It was designed specifically for that purpose: to eject bits of metal at a high velocity so that they can penetrate a mammal. It has been refined over centuries to do that better and better: ejecting the metal more accurately, faster, more refined for killing one thing versus another, etc. Those are the design criteria: how to make it a more effective killing tool.
As a result, have other tools been designed using similar technology? Yes, flare guns, for instance. Nail guns for another. But the gun you pull on Mike Tyson? That is designed to kill.
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Now you're just being silly. A frying pan doesn't cook without you using it to cook, but it is designed to cook.
So you own your firearm for protection. Why? Because it kills. That's what makes it the deterrent that you're using it for.
It was designed specifically for that purpose: to eject bits of metal at a high velocity so that they can penetrate a mammal. It has been refined over centuries to do that better and better: ejecting the metal more accurately, faster, more refined for killing one thing versus another, etc. Those are the design criteria: how to make it a more effective killing tool.
As a result, have other tools been designed using similar technology? Yes, flare guns, for instance. Nail guns for another. But the gun you pull on Mike Tyson? That is designed to kill.
Yes, it sure is designed to kill. And quite the deterrent to unwanted violence, as I illustrated above. The textbook definition of using a gun in "self defense".
Wonder why cops carry them? To kill people? LOL
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That's a CDC statistic and complete BS. Their terminology is "fire-arm related" death. If you believe their data after their bs usage of data during Covid, I don't know what to tell you.. but yeah, the guy that died in a plane crash definitely died of Covid. And I'm sure his 14 year old in the back of the plane was fire-arm related since his dad owned a 9mm.
When you actually dig into the gun deaths in our country with teens, it is related to two specific areas. Suicide and gang violent deaths. And neither are those are the fault of the gun and far more specifically related to family and drug issues and you can throw in economic issues that correlate to the south america and Mexico areas that have violence due to economic reasons. Most interesting, is the deaths that don't fall under suicide are most common in areas with most restrictive gun laws.
You can find fault with the methodology, but not the volume. So let's say the CDC is wrong by some margin of error. You're still talking about an epidemic that is fundamentally different than any of our peer countries.
Suicide exists in Canada and western Europe. So does poverty. So does drug use. So does gang violence. So why is the U.S. such an outlier relative to our peer nations? Firearms. That's why.
https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier
That isn't some anti-gun activist group: https://www.healthdata.org/
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Yes, it sure is designed to kill.
See we agree. Was that so hard?
:)
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https://youtu.be/9bv-wPYRMDI?si=4fuDoDQeXWHCfqMQ
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Yes, we have societal problems that contribute to this, but they aren't video games, Hollywood, rap music, etc.
And most shootings are not "mental health" issues, in the sense of someone with a clinical mental health problem. There is a different between that (a clinical issue), and someone who snaps. That's why it makes sense to restrict firearms access for people with demonstrated anger management issues (domestic abusers, for instance).
Is anyone here blaming video games or rap music? Just out of curiosity.
"Clinical mental health problem" is a very convoluted topic, and it's why I didn't use the term. Just because something is not in the DSM doesn't mean there's not research on the phenomenon, or correlating/causal factors with certain behaviors. There are things therapists and clinical psychologists treat which don't fit neatly into a clinical mental health disorder (probably psychiatrists too, ostensibly, but in my experience with our patients at a family practice who were referred to psychiatry, all they do is prescribe pills that don't so much fix a problem as they make you so sleepy you don't care anymore.)
Guns have always been readily available to people in this country. I'm curious as to whether there's data on estimates of guns in the country over time, which could be compared with population over time. In my grandparents generation, I never knew anyone who didn't have at least one. Well over half of the people I know now don't own any. Anecdotal, but it's my working theory. Yet now we have more gun-related tragedies.
SuperMario's point can't be discounted. And I'm not trying to discount your points either. But, for example, the entire copycat paradigm is not what I'd consider a root cause to compete with what I'm saying; it's another symptom downstream of what I'm talking about. Again, I reference the WW2 generation (my grandparents). When tragedy struck, those people didn't see upticks in copycat behavior like we do today. Why?
This ties in to a lot of other areas, I suspect. For example, social media is rewiring our brains in ways we don't even understand, and while the extent and specifics aren't fully understood, what we do know for sure is that it is changing us (the younger the person, the more the change), and it's generally not for the better. None of this has made it into the DSM, and likely won't. But it's real. And the correlations between social media impact on young people and negative behavioral trends for those users is staggering. Does this have anything to do with higher rates of tragic behavior, gun violence amongst them? I doubt anyone can say for sure, but I suspect it does, and the correlation is present, at least.
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Pre-post edit: Gallup has info, I just saw, on guns in homes, but it only goes back to 1960 (I'd like to look at something that goes back much further). Households with guns has gone down since 1960, but barely, so let's just call it even. There was a bit of an overall trend down through 2019, which sort of fit my hypothesis, but household gun ownership has ticked back up since 2019. At the very least, it suggests that there aren't more guns in homes than there used to be. But tragic gun use has definitely spiked nevertheless, so I don't know that gun availability is the best culprit.
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Y'all are so worked up with me because you know I'm a lefty (despite being a gun owner), that you've completely forgotten to tell CD that his system can't work because it would result in a giant database that tells the feds who owns all the guns, making it too easy for them (me, probably--crazy lefties in any case) to come confiscate them.
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Suicide exists in Canada and western Europe. So does poverty. So does drug use. So does gang violence. So why is the U.S. such an outlier relative to our peer nations? Firearms. That's why.
yeah.. it's not the people behind the firearm. Nope, it's simply the piece of metal. That's the problem.
Do you know that medical errors lead to 10 times the amount of yearly deaths compared to guns. Why don't you work hard on convincing people we should ban the medical profession? 4 Times as many deaths caused by alcohol. Better ban everyone from alcohol. Poor diets cause 488 times more deaths than guns. Better control the food people eat.
Sorry, the gun is not the problem and the reason someone pulls the trigger. It's the problem that we should work on that leads to the action. That's the actual problem. That's why.
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This ties in to a lot of other areas, I suspect. For example, social media is rewiring our brains in ways we don't even understand, and while the extent and specifics aren't fully understood, what we do know for sure is that it is changing us (the younger the person, the more the change), and it's generally not for the better. None of this has made it into the DSM, and likely won't. But it's real. And the correlations between social media impact on young people and negative behavioral trends for those users is staggering. Does this have anything to do with higher rates of tragic behavior, gun violence amongst them? I doubt anyone can say for sure, but I suspect it does, and the correlation is present, at least.
A far more classy and intellectual approach than mine and a better explanation of where I tend to lean. Well said.
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Is anyone here blaming video games or rap music? Just out of curiosity.
Yes:
Exactly this. I don't know, how about the erosion of families? Maybe, just maybe, tearing apart the idea of a classic family structure and allowing Hollywood, video games and the music industry make violence, drug dealing and crime and other things "sexy" has distorted the healthy view of reality?
But your bigger point is one worth discussing. Yes, the firearms per household hasn't meaningfully changed, several other things have, the number of firearms per person, and the population density, and the mix of firearms has changed over time, from more long guns (and the type of long guns) to more handguns. Also, the conversion to higher capacity, higher rate of fire weapons was dramatic. 40 years ago, the average deer hunter bought a 30.06 lever action rifle. Now they own semiautomatic, magazine-fed rifles. Similarly, the auto (which is really a semiauto, as everoyone involved in this conversation knows) has largely supplanted the revolver in the handgun market. Now, to the point that will inevitably be made: yes, they are all perfectly capable of killing, but no, they don't work the same way. Like any well-designed tool, they vary according to specific applications. One thing that the mix in types of guns has meant is that the average gun owner today has a more efficient killer than he or she did 40 years ago.
I don't think copycat behavior is new. But access to information is dramatically different, meaning the broadcast that results in copycat behavior is much more significant.
And to Badge's point: violence isn't unique to the U.S. But the point behind different regulations of firearms isn't to end violence, it's to reduce its impact. To BAB's point, the number of firearms in the U.S. is already massive, and there's no realistic way to meaningfully change that in the short term. The feds aren't going to go door to door confiscating guns. Anything that is done will have to be incremental, and will only have incremental effects.
I, for one, think incremental change for the better is worth it.
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You can find fault with the methodology, but not the volume. So let's say the CDC is wrong by some margin of error. You're still talking about an epidemic that is fundamentally different than any of our peer countries.
Suicide exists in Canada and western Europe. So does poverty. So does drug use. So does gang violence. So why is the U.S. such an outlier relative to our peer nations? Firearms. That's why.
https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/insights-blog/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier
That isn't some anti-gun activist group: https://www.healthdata.org/
So you're saying that violence and suicide is everywhere, and people use various available tools to accomplish that, and in a place where guns are available, they get used for the same purpose as other available tools elsewhere?
I don't know if this is front page news.
If the point is to restrict young people's access to guns, well, Badger has suggested charging the owners with murder, which I disagree with, but that's one way to go, I guess, but I'm on board with some non-murder-charge criminal liability and I agree with you that access needs to be feasibly restricted, if possible.
And I humbly request that you in turn advocate for or at least start paying attention to some of the other factors I'm talking about. The argument that "it happens in Canada and Western Europe too, but less because gUnZ!" does nothing to refute that they too have mental health problems or undermine my assertion that it's a root cause. Which is one of the things I'm proposing to address. Why be content to point out that they kill less than we do without guns? If there's anything society can be doing to lessen the mental problems both here and elsewhere, I'm sure you're for it. Just as the resident lefty, you have to argue with us so much that you probably forget how much you want to help people :)
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Do you know that medical errors lead to 10 times the amount of yearly deaths compared to guns. Why don't you work hard on convincing people we should ban the medical profession? 4 Times as many deaths caused by alcohol. Better ban everyone from alcohol. Poor diets cause 488 times more deaths than guns. Better control the food people eat.
This gets to the purpose of the tool.
The purpose of the medical profession is to save lives. The tools and methods are designed with that in mind (as are the regulations). Just like the frying pan is designed for cooking. People cannot live without food (but we do regulate food production and marketing). Alcohol...let's just say prohibition was an abject failure. Still, heavily regulated.
I'm not advocating banning guns (which are also regulated)--in fact, I don't think I've said anything in this thread about the appropriate response to the gun violence epedemic in this country--but merely pointing out that more guns equates to more gun violence ruffles feathers in a remarkable way.
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I don't think copycat behavior is new. But access to information is dramatically different, meaning the broadcast that results in copycat behavior is much more significant.
Unless there's data or supporting evidence on that, there are multiple assumptions in that statement that I don't think are justified accepting.
I, for one, think incremental change for the better is worth it.
Good, we agree. Incremental change so that more people are like you and I, who, together in a room with an AR-15, a bazooka, and some tactical knives engraved "Tigers vs. Badgers Thunderdome," would never think of using them on each other, is definitely worth your time. Heck, and you're even a lefty, who I'm at least predisposed to zing a spitball at with a rubber band.
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This gets to the purpose of the tool.
The purpose of the medical profession is to save lives. The tools and methods are designed with that in mind (as are the regulations). Just like the frying pan is designed for cooking. People cannot live without food (but we do regulate food production and marketing). Alcohol...let's just say prohibition was an abject failure. Still, heavily regulated.
I'm not advocating banning guns (which are also regulated)--in fact, I don't think I've said anything in this thread about the appropriate response to the gun violence epedemic in this country--but merely pointing out that more guns equates to more gun violence ruffles feathers in a remarkable way.
You and MDT have a great interaction going so I don't want to ruin that, but i certainly think there's a difference in mentality from many gun owners to your perception of gun owners. Certainly, there's plenty that have and use guns for the wrong reasons and so many of those don't get the guns legally anyways. There's a segment that possibly shouldn't own guns for many reasons, but how do you regulate that if you ever could? Then, there's gun owners that own for hunting reasons, which typically do a great job of gun safety and educating themselves, which they use the tool for killing. There are certainly plenty that don't educate themselves well, but a minority. Lastly, there are a lot of owners, that own them for the sole purpose of preparation of need to defend or save a life and they do so with great responsibility and don't take it lightly. I think there's far more of those individuals that credited for.
While i believe that guns in the hands of some is a problem, I don't think that's an easily identifiable nor fixable situation. What i think is a better path, is addressing the situations that lead to the violence with them. It won't be easy to overhaul some of those causes, but doing so will lead to far more problems being lessened than simply just gun violence.
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So you're saying that violence and suicide is everywhere, and people use various available tools to accomplish that, and in a place where guns are available, they get used for the same purpose as other available tools elsewhere?
I don't know if this is front page news.
If the point is to restrict young people's access to guns, well, Badger has suggested charging the owners with murder, which I disagree with, but that's one way to go, I guess, but I'm on board with some non-murder-charge criminal liability and I agree with you that access needs to be feasibly restricted, if possible.
And I humbly request that you in turn advocate for or at least start paying attention to some of the other factors I'm talking about. The argument that "it happens in Canada and Western Europe too, but less because gUnZ!" does nothing to refute that they too have mental health problems or undermine my assertion that it's a root cause. Which is one of the things I'm proposing to address. Why be content to point out that they kill less than we do without guns? If there's anything society can be doing to lessen the mental problems both here and elsewhere, I'm sure you're for it. Just as the resident lefty, you have to argue with us so much that you probably forget how much you want to help people :)
I am all for better mental health care in this country (and elsewhere). I'm also for policies that encourage stable families. And I'm all ears about how to appropriately deal with information in the social media age. That's a tough nut to crack, but one that needs work. And I agree that charging gun owners with murder is a bit much.
But here, where we offer "thoughts and prayers" after another teenager shoots up a school, I think that throwing our hands in the air and saying there's nothing we can do is a poor response to a problem that has proliferated in our lifetimes. We can and do throw our energies, as a society, behind lots of things that are far less destructive than gun violence, but for this one area, the American gun fetish is resolute. We will do next to nothing, but feel sad that things aren't getting better.
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You and MDT have a great interaction going so I don't want to ruin that, but i certainly think there's a difference in mentality from many gun owners to your perception of gun owners. Certainly, there's plenty that have and use guns for the wrong reasons and so many of those don't get the guns legally anyways. There's a segment that possibly shouldn't own guns for many reasons, but how do you regulate that if you ever could? Then, there's gun owners that own for hunting reasons, which typically do a great job of gun safety and educating themselves, which they use the tool for killing. There are certainly plenty that don't educate themselves well, but a minority. Lastly, there are a lot of owners, that own them for the sole purpose of preparation of need to defend or save a life and they do so with great responsibility and don't take it lightly. I think there's far more of those individuals that credited for.
While i believe that guns in the hands of some is a problem, I don't think that's an easily identifiable nor fixable situation. What i think is a better path, is addressing the situations that lead to the violence with them. It won't be easy to overhaul some of those causes, but doing so will lead to far more problems being lessened than simply just gun violence.
I don't villianize gun owners. What I have a problem with is the resolute objection to meaningful restrictions on the manufacture and sale of guns. And there is no question, as MDT points out, that more guns = more gun violence. So if there are ways that we can reduce the number of guns, without stomping all over people who responsibly own and use guns, shouldn't we do that? I think so.
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MDT: the "Werther Effect" (copycat suicide) is not new, and has been studied longer than social media has been a thing:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18082110/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7967741/
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Final thought, for the moment, I think that we are all in agreement that there is something cultural going on that plays a huge role in gun violence in this country. I think that's where this whole exchange started.
My view is that lionizing guns isn't helping.
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But here, where we offer "thoughts and prayers" after another teenager shoots up a school, I think that throwing our hands in the air and saying there's nothing we can do is a poor response to a problem that has proliferated in our lifetimes. We can and do throw our energies, as a society, behind lots of things that are far less destructive than gun violence, but for this one area, the American gun fetish is resolute. We will do next to nothing, but feel sad that things aren't getting better.
This is where I fear we might be starting to talk past each other.
I disagree that folks like me (let's say a number around here, though probably most people around here would rather not be compared to me) throw our hands in the air and say there's nothing we can do. In fact, SuperMario's response is quite the opposite, and it's a common one I see. In fact we are proposing things to address, and I would argue that they're things we can act on more quickly with more agreement. For example, you've said you support pro-family paradigms, etc. These are things we don't have to spend time debating, we can put more effort and concern into supporting those things right now. On the other hand, there is the high number of guns in our country, which I believe you yourself said you're not sure what to do about that, if anything, only that people don't want to talk about it. Okay, I suspect the reason for that is we don't yet know what to do about it. You don't necessarily want stricter gun control, we don't necessarily want stricter gun control. We don't seem to have much idea how to proceed in that area. So I don't think it's odd or blame-worthy that many would rather talk about other factors we can deal with, however incrementally or uphill they may be.
The last part, about the gun fetish leading to doing nothing except feeling sad, is, I think, a bit of a straw man, and more or less addressed in the preceeding paragraph. The only thing I'd add is I definitely, 100%, absolutely, do not have a gun fetish. Quite the opposite, if you knew me. I actually quite dislike guns, even though I own one*. Nevertheless, I'm nearly 100% against the standard talking points that come out after tragedies like this.
*one doesn't count for the conversation here. It's a 22, good for varmints and maybe if the world went to hell and I had to kill a rabbit for food, it might be good for that.
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MDT: the "Werther Effect" (copycat suicide) is not new, and has been studied longer than social media has been a thing:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18082110/
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7967741/
Sounds like we need to get rid of media then.
If an increase in guns warrants a conversation about reducing guns, then an increase in media.....
I am literally for this, and I hereby rest my case.
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The feds aren't going to go door to door confiscating guns. Anything that is done will have to be incremental, and will only have incremental effects.
If they show up at my door to take mine, they better be really well armed because they are only taking my guns from my cold dead hands.
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Y'all are so worked up with me because you know I'm a lefty (despite being a gun owner), that you've completely forgotten to tell CD that his system can't work because it would result in a giant database that tells the feds who owns all the guns, making it too easy for them (me, probably--crazy lefties in any case) to come confiscate them.
It works me up because if you'd have been a pitcher, you could make a minimum $10 Million as a lefty.
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A number of things that could loosely go in a bin labeled "Mental Health."
Our gun laws (along with a bunch of other stuff) only work as intended with a sane and Western-valued population. I'd argue both of those things are eroding and have demonstrable correlation over the time span Badger is talking about.
What sort of mental health stuff are we talking about?
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Depends on where you live. In Illinois it is very hard to get a legal gun (and much easier to get one illegally).
Florida was harder when we moved here, but you still have a waiting period of 5 days for background check unless you have the gun permit (which we do). Now you no longer need a gun permit to conceal carry, which I don't like. Everyone should have some training at least.
It's weird to me that you have to get a lot of training to drive a car, but zero training to drive a boat.
Or to have a kid or to get married.
Lots of weird shit.
Sounds like gun control.
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I would say another firearm use would be to prevent being killed by things.
That use only functions because you want to project you would kill someone. And the only way to make it concrete is to injure or kill them.
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yeah.. it's not the people behind the firearm. Nope, it's simply the piece of metal. That's the problem.
So all we've got to do is fix people and we've got this solved, great!
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If they show up at my door to take mine, they better be really well armed because they are only taking my guns from my cold dead hands.
This fantasizing about killing cops could be a mediocre rap song.
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Sounds like gun control.
You keep coming at me with that like a "gotcha!" moment.
When did I ever say that we didn't need controls, or guardrails?
Regardless, our biggest issue is illegal guns, and we know where most of those reside. Figure that one out because I can't.
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That use only functions because you want to project you would kill someone. And the only way to make it concrete is to injure or kill them.
Well, uh …. Yeah.
Somebody is going to have to make a business decision.
The hope is that the bad guy reevaluates his position. Success rate is probably pretty high.
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This fantasizing about killing cops could be a mediocre rap song.
or a good old fashioned 1960s country-western
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The number of guns in the US has gone up a lot while violent crime rates have come down a lot since about 1992.
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The percentage of HHs owning guns has trended down.
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1990s were the record high.
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You keep coming at me with that like a "gotcha!" moment.
When did I ever say that we didn't need controls, or guardrails?
Regardless, our biggest issue is illegal guns, and we know where most of those reside. Figure that one out because I can't.
Not really a gotcha, just want to keep illustrating that a lot of folks aren't so far apart on things. Lot's of consensus we want the government to limit firearm access, just some gaps on how.
And a prevailing good sense that many, many people shouldn't have them. Because they allow people to be very dangerous.
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Well, uh …. Yeah.
Somebody is going to have to make a business decision.
The hope is that the bad guy reevaluates his position. Success rate is probably pretty high.
And we agree, they're for killin, and threatening to kill people.
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The number of guns in the US has gone up a lot while violent crime rates have come down a lot since about 1992.
The percentage of HHs owning guns has trended down.
the homes that do have guns are more likely to have 10+ guns, some 20 or 30+
self defense
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And we agree, they're for killin, and threatening to kill people.
Not for us. We enjoy the sport of shooting. It's fun.
Yes, they are in our home, and yes, they would be used to kill if the need arose. I don't suspect that will ever happen as we spend a lot of money to live in an area where it just doesn't happen.
Gonna be a bit for me with this chest wound. Especially with that 44. That thing is a LOT of gun. No way I could shoot that thing at this point.
I guess I have time to do some deep cleaning on the collection. Maybe I'll start tomorrow. Maybe not.
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Not really a gotcha, just want to keep illustrating that a lot of folks aren't so far apart on things. Lot's of consensus we want the government to limit firearm access, just some gaps on how.
And a prevailing good sense that many, many people shouldn't have them. Because they allow people to be very dangerous.
The extremists want them all taken away. If that happened, only cops and criminals would have guns. Cops and rule of law people don't want that.
So, that is a non-starter.
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The extremists want them all taken away. If that happened, only cops and criminals would have guns. Cops and rule of law people don't want that.
So, that is a non-starter.
never happen in my lifetime
kinda like Social Security going away
just scare tactic - never happen
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This fantasizing about killing cops could be a mediocre rap song.
If you can't process the difference between ghetto thugs wanting to kill the cops tasked with keeping them from killing each other and someone willing to stand up and risk their own life for the principle of a legitimate government then there is no hope for you.
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And we agree, they're for killin, and threatening to kill people.
That has never been in doubt. Not sure why it keeps getting tossed around.
If you threaten me , or my family, yes -- I will threaten you back with a .45 in your face.
Hopefully, you reevaluate your thinking, and slither away. The entire purpose. Meet force with equal or greater force.
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The extremists want them all taken away. If that happened, only cops and criminals would have guns. Cops and rule of law people don't want that.
So, that is a non-starter.
Here's the rub..... and where all arguments against controls ends.
Criminals do not obey the law.
"A lock does no more than keep an honest man honest.”
― Robin Hobb, Assassin's Quest (https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/503752)
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the homes that do have guns are more likely to have 10+ guns, some 20 or 30+
self defense
I have my 20 or 30+ for fun.
I have exactly two that are specifically for self defense.
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I have my 20 or 30+ for fun.
I have exactly two that are specifically for self defense.
You have a lot of collector's items, right?
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You have a lot of collector's items, right?
Yup. I got my granddad's entire collection because my cousins on the other side are super-liberal anti-gun dudes, and my brother lives in an apartment and has no room for any of it. My sister has no interest.
The real collector's pieces have been on display in museums in Temple, Belton, Waco, and Austin. One of them is a rifle that Wild Bill Hickock allegedly owned, they had that one in an exhibit at the Texas Rangers museum in Waco for a while.
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If they show up at my door to take mine, they better be really well armed because they are only taking my guns from my cold dead hands.
We may strongly dislike each other's takes on anything related to Michigan and Ohio state, but we seem to see so many other parts of the world similarly. If only i could convert you to good fandom. I'll drop you off some maize and blue socks. Let's start small.
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Damn, it's almost as if underneath all that tribalism, we can see each other's actual humanity.
What fun is that!?!
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We may strongly dislike each other's takes on anything related to Michigan and Ohio state, but we seem to see so many other parts of the world similarly. If only i could convert you to good fandom. I'll drop you off some maize and blue socks. Let's start small.
I'm not wearing your stupid socks!
LoL.
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Yup. I got my granddad's entire collection because my cousins on the other side are super-liberal anti-gun dudes, and my brother lives in an apartment and has no room for any of it. My sister has no interest.
The real collector's pieces have been on display in museums in Temple, Belton, Waco, and Austin. One of them is a rifle that Wild Bill Hickock allegedly owned, they had that one in an exhibit at the Texas Rangers museum in Waco for a while.
I don't have anything nearly as impressive as that but my favorite collector piece is an 1897 Winchester that my Grandpa bought at a bankruptcy auction during the Depression. It had been the security system of the "Lodi State Bank" and when they went tits up my Grandpa went to the auction and bought the gun.
For those unfamiliar, a Winchester 1897 is a 12 ga pump shotgun and TBH, the scariest thing about it is the distinctuve chunk-clank sound it makes when you rack it. That sound is just mean even if you aren't really familiar with it.
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If they show up at my door to take mine, they better be really well armed because they are only taking my guns from my cold dead hands.
Kindly return to 1792. FFS
This is the reason the gov't would never, ever try to do this. It's also a reason no other country could ever invade us.
But if today's gov't wanted to erase you, they'd do it easily. Stop the fantasy of fighting your own gov't off your land.
I honestly just wish the 2nd amendment said something crazy like "don't own other people as property" or some such. I can't help but think if it said you had the right to bear tennis rackets, you wouldn't give a damn about guns. You'd waste time about how your forehand would turn the tide in the next civil war.
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I hunted with a Winchester Model 12 as a teenager (my uncle's gun). The sound it made when racking a round was delightful. The feel was nice, too. Great gun. Honestly, I was a little sad that I didn't inherit it, but them's the breaks.
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Kindly return to 1792. FFS
This is the reason the gov't would never, ever try to do this. It's also a reason no other country could ever invade us.
But if today's gov't wanted to erase you, they'd do it easily. Stop the fantasy of fighting your own gov't off your land.
I honestly just wish the 2nd amendment said something crazy like "don't own other people as property" or some such. I can't help but think if it said you had the right to bear tennis rackets, you wouldn't give a damn about guns. You'd waste time about how your forehand would turn the tide in the next civil war.
Lots of ramble here.
You coming for my pickleball racquets? You better come in heavy.
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Fro's an ass, but he's got a point here. The BLM police shooter in Dallas was a trained Marine, armed to the teeth, in a sniper position. Very few are better situated to shoot it out with the govt than him. They blew him up with a robot in less than five minutes. If that hadn't worked, they could have sent in an armored personnel carrier.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_Y3MqDGw-nWKzAknQx7fw-mx3Ad-2aJJ9_wotmhOcWOcuyai6EJ1O6aY6uYRO6CTnELw&usqp=CAU)
If some random dude tried to shoot it out with the govt? Good luck with that.
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Fro's an ass, but he's got a point here. The BLM police shooter in Dallas was a trained Marine, armed to the teeth, in a sniper position. Very few are better situated to shoot it out with the govt than him. They blew him up with a robot in less than five minutes. If that hadn't worked, they could have sent in an armored personnel carrier.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_Y3MqDGw-nWKzAknQx7fw-mx3Ad-2aJJ9_wotmhOcWOcuyai6EJ1O6aY6uYRO6CTnELw&usqp=CAU)
If some random dude tried to shoot it out with the govt? Good luck with that.
As sleepy Joe said...
"We have the F-16's"
Unless you're Rambo, not much of a chance. Hopefully we never get there to find out.
(https://i.imgur.com/BzJO0sq.jpeg)
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Fro's an ass, but he's got a point here. The BLM police shooter in Dallas was a trained Marine, armed to the teeth, in a sniper position. Very few are better situated to shoot it out with the govt than him. They blew him up with a robot in less than five minutes.
If some random dude tried to shoot it out with the govt? Good luck with that.
"The duty of a true patriot is to protect his country from its government." - Thomas Payne
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Unless you're Rambo, not much of a chance. Hopefully we never get there to find out.
(https://i.imgur.com/BzJO0sq.jpeg)
Well he's getting pretty old so if the Gov't is going to do something I hope they step on it.Whilst there's still achance
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"The duty of a true patriot is to protect his country from its government." - Thomas Payne
Right, and what year is this from? Thomas PAINE - 1737-1809
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Right, and what year is this from? Thomas PAINE - 1737-1809
The depth of intellectualism only remains if spoken today 🙄
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Right, and what year is this from? Thomas PAINE - 1737-1809
I'm not encouriging insurrection but some quotes are timeless and this applies to the last gaggle of squawking twats and their perverted views and criminal existence that has been shown the door.
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plenty of folks have had their guns pried out of their dead fingers by law enforcement when they try stupid shit
well, to be truthful, ALL of them
so, be careful what you wish for
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You'd have a better chance of beating LeBron James one on one, with your shoes tied together, and using a football while on offense.
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You'd have a better chance of beating LeBron James one on one, with your shoes tied together, and using a football while on offense.
Not if I shot him first.
:57:
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The full strength of the US military can't actively occupy the entire USA. And that's assuming that 100% of US military forces would even follow orders to take up arms against American civilians.
This is a non-issue that people like to argue about.
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This is a non-issue that people like to argue about.
This.
The ideas that the founders had about a citizenry being armed in case of idiots in government still largely apply, imo. The extent to which any part of our government, federal, state, or local would realistically go against its own population for things not already understood as blatantly criminal or terror-related, is far more limited than its full capability, and thus an armed population is still a counter-balance to a few idiots who might try something stupid that the bulk of the population opposes.
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This.
The ideas that the founders had about a citizenry being armed in case of idiots in government still largely apply, imo. The extent to which any part of our government, federal, state, or local would realistically go against its own population for things not already understood as blatantly criminal or terror-related, is far more limited than its full capability, and thus an armed population is still a counter-balance to a few idiots who might try something stupid that the bulk of the population opposes.
Yup. Just the possibility of armed civilian resistance, the capability of it, works to ensure that it never happens.
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Not if I shot him first.
:57:
Okay you're obviously on the mend ;D
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Yup. Just the possibility of armed civilian resistance, the capability of it, works to ensure that it never happens.
I wonder what the balance would be there in terms of the bulk of the population.
Like, if the government had 30% of the population, and maybe a specific 30% of the population, could you do that to 70% of the population? Probably? 20-80? Who knows.
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ask the folks in Syria how it worked with Assad
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uh.... ahem....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSuNTclkPBI
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ask the folks in Syria how it worked with Assad
what are you trying to say here? lol. fyi the folks who overthrew Assad weren't regular Joes, Achmeds, and Muhammads from Syria selling rugs and spices on the silk road to Damascus.....many were Saudi nationals that were Muslim fundamentalist extremists aka real life actual fucking terrorists- not the fake domestic terrorist pathetic J6'ers or Moms & Dads complaining to school boards in the US retards in the media and the shitlibtards went on and on about- rather real life hardcore card carrying gang-banging members of Al-Qaeda and the #2 guy in ISIS like Syria's brand new awesome leader! Which by the way, are terror groups that the US funded, armed, supplied intelligence, and supported in Syria for the last oh...11 years ever since that piece of shit Barrack Obama green lit a CIA operation called timber sycamore which had as it's aim to get rid of Bashar al-Assad at basically any cost.
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Ed Zachery
regular citizens armed with rifles and handguns aren't standing up to an idiot like Assad
if the feds decide to raid a complex armed to the teeth with white supremists or proud boys or any other group........ game over
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There are veterans and groups of veterans with training and experience aplenty that could stand down just about any agency IF that agency plays it between the lines.
Feds and states know this. Its a very vivid and discussed fear of theirs. Most vets who are also part of those feds and states and that I know find this funny. Those profiled types are imagined as foes, when if this nation was ever infiltrated those vets would be massive assets----- unless those infiltrators WERE the feds... then, they'd have a problem.
They "make us" and "used us for their games" and then they "fear us" when we're past that obligation, and seek means to neutralize us.
That's hilarious.
If you think well armed citizens can't stand against feds or states, you need to reevaluate your reasoning. The freakin taliban stood against the best trained and equipped military with loads and loads of gadgets with little more than tribal ingenuity... the Iraqi and insurgents of university aged, mostly, fighters laid a hurting on the same military- far more than anyone would have suspected, and did so with little if any training and less equipment.
Taking ground when you don't plan on keeping it or extracting it's resources is easy.... taking it without massive infrastructural damage and retaining it? Not so easy.
Deer hunters from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana and west Virginia alone amd on opening day represent the largest standing army in the world... add the south and Texas in that, it's three times the largest standing army. If together, nobody is ever taking this nation over from outside amd leaving anything worth having when they're done and if they're successful...
That isn't accidental; that's by design... design of our forefathers before it became corrupt to the core and they began to fear us. The only reason they'd want us disarmed is if they plan on doing something we'd shoot them for. Its that simple. Furthermore and drawn from actual data, a well armed group is highly unlikely to be attacked by criminals. When is the last time a police bar was robbed? Why aren't drug houses raided by other criminals all the time? Has anyone ever busted into a gun club amd tried to hold them up or shoot them? ..... I freakin wonder why.
Kids. That's the only reason a weapon should be secured. And I'm all for having both state sponsored gun handling classes for kids as well as taking a kid at a young young age out with a BB gun and having them kill a bird or a rabbit just so they realize, harshly, how something can be destroyed in a moment and what that feels like.
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The depth of intellectualism only remains if spoken today 🙄
This is where I look like the arrogant prick when I refuse to believe you're this dense.
18th century wisdom concerning the US military vs the US citizenry doesn't apply to 21st century US military weaponry vs US citizenry. You must know this and know this is the point. FFS.
Musket vs musket? Sure. A worthwhile enterprise. A chance of victory. A real deterrent in large numbers.
An F-22 payload vs whatever 10 guns you have in your cabinet = give me a fucking break
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This is where I look like the arrogant prick when I refuse to believe you're this dense.
18th century wisdom concerning the US military vs the US citizenry doesn't apply to 21st century US military weaponry vs US citizenry. You must know this and know this is the point. FFS.
Musket vs musket? Sure. A worthwhile enterprise. A chance of victory. A real deterrent in large numbers.
An F-22 payload vs whatever 10 guns you have in your cabinet = give me a fucking break
Brutha, the taliban says "whu?"...
do you know what the likely #1 advantage the US military has over everyone in unconventional warfare? ....
a: night vision.
I personally have three sets. I know a lot of folks with more. Picking folks off one by one is where our police excel. Decimation of real estate is where our military excels. The in between, which is the prospect of armed conflict within these walls, the armed citizens of this nation would give both police and the military hell.
But it doesn't matter and won't matter. It will never happen. After the first f22 owned by the US with US pilot running sorties over US soil, there will be no military. It'll be a gaggle of pissed off well armed patriots who sabotage equipment they can't take with them on their march to DC.
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Luckily it will never happen
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But if it were to happen, you're right, shit has hit the fan and the usual concerns of war no longer matter.
Cost? Wouldn't matter.
Collateral damage? Wouldn't matter.
If it wanted to, the US military could erase any rural town full of hunters. The Taliban were on their home turf....the US would be the home turf of the US soldiers.
Again, we agree it wouldn't happen, but the mindset of being obsessed with the 2nd amendment needs to omit any type of militia nonsense.
It's a childish hero complex fantasy, nothing more.
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What kind of government would strike, using a non discrimitory weapon, a town of its citizens? Is this a nation you'd willfully support? Or, is it a govt you support because of fear?
Just the words leaving Bidens lips were tyrannical. The threat alone.
It won't happen because more than half of the military are not on the governments "side". They're on the side of those on either side of them and at home and all of us here... the gov power lusting twats in DC can "think" they own that Trump card, but they're absolutely equally eligible to find those components against them.
The constitution got us where we were- assaulting it has got us where we are- its purpose is to limit goverent not grant rights to people. Leave that alone and protect the 1A to keep comms open and the 2A to make that threat real, leave us alone from unlawful search and seizure and the following rights, and thos will ne er be a concern. Try to take weapons away from a largely law abiding citizenry, and it won't end well.
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(https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rhC3R0GLSAU/WomTIB7HnxI/AAAAAAABIec/Bm_p0I4uIOkj_kganU_IqGSGgGwDwbFHwCLcBGAs/s640/ezgif-3-aad2d45b38.gif)
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(https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-19-2016/-0sa31.gif)
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(https://th.bing.com/th/id/R.3385395e689836c4496554b203f938a1?rik=UDm8UW60bPQyMQ&riu=http%3a%2f%2fwww.bardissi.net%2fimages%2feasyblog_shared%2fMay_2015%2f5-4-15%2ftargeting_computer_in_blog_4.gif&ehk=XtdrJq8%2fuA5GQXA1EWsv5VwwVzoQTI3xdyA4MMNjiSc%3d&risl=&pid=ImgRaw&r=0)
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What kind of government would strike, using a non discrimitory weapon, a town of its citizens? Is this a nation you'd willfully support? Or, is it a govt you support because of fear?
Just the words leaving Bidens lips were tyrannical. The threat alone.
It won't happen because more than half of the military are not on the governments "side". They're on the side of those on either side of them and at home and all of us here... the gov power lusting twats in DC can "think" they own that Trump card, but they're absolutely equally eligible to find those components against them.
The constitution got us where we were- assaulting it has got us where we are- its purpose is to limit goverent not grant rights to people. Leave that alone and protect the 1A to keep comms open and the 2A to make that threat real, leave us alone from unlawful search and seizure and the following rights, and thos will ne er be a concern. Try to take weapons away from a largely law abiding citizenry, and it won't end well.
Postwar South Korea military dictatorships have a long and sordid reputation for shooting their own populace.
And the unarmed populace (the number of gun owners in SK I keep seeing is 1 person in 500) drove off last week's coup attempt without a shot being fired.
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It won't happen because more than half of the military are not on the governments "side". They're on the side of those on either side of them and at home and all of us here... the gov power lusting twats in DC can "think" they own that Trump card, but they're absolutely equally eligible to find those components against them.
I thought they followed orders.....that's like the whole thing with the military.
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I thought they followed orders.....that's like the whole thing with the military.
To a point.
If half, or likely many more, of the military is not on the side of the ruling party, it's very likely they would abandon orders and stage a coup, if ordered by the ruling party to stage mass killings of citizens with whom they side.
We can pray to God that this never happens in our country, as it has in so many others.
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Well the gov't wouldn't decide on such a radical action unless those targeted did some radical law-breaking themselves.
It's not like we're telling a private to go bomb his grand-pappy 'just because.'
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Well the gov't wouldn't decide on such a radical action unless those targeted did some radical law-breaking themselves.
It's not like we're telling a private to go bomb his grand-pappy 'just because.'
Like some domestic terrorists speaking out at a school board meeting or something.
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Well the gov't wouldn't decide on such a radical action unless those targeted did some radical law-breaking themselves.
It's not like we're telling a private to go bomb his grand-pappy 'just because.'
Waco was awesome. We need more of that.
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I thought they followed orders.....that's like the whole thing with the military.
"lawful orders"... there have been times, in my presence, orders were returned to sender with a big EFF YOU... there have also been times, also in my presence, the order was lawful and though hugely unpopular- were carried out.
there is zero absolutely zero reason for a government elected by the people to go after those people- none, ever- if they've got issue, they've done their jobs poorly representing and leading up to irrational and illegal actions. they work for US; WE are not their 'subjects'. it's a curious thing to see half the population here bend the knee to what they perceive as power. eff that. live free or die.
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eff that. live free or die.
Hey stop that!!! When was that quote from 1807. Well at least that's the response i got when quoting Thomas Payne 😎
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Hey stop that!!! When was that quote from 1807. Well at least that's the response i got when quoting Thomas Payne 😎
And maybe someday you'll spell his name correctly.
Drew, you sound like you're in the "F-around and find out" crowd.
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And maybe someday you'll spell his name correctly.
Drew, you sound like you're in the "F-around and find out" crowd.
Most Marines are in that crowd.
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There are veterans and groups of veterans with training and experience aplenty that could stand down just about any agency IF that agency plays it between the lines.
Feds and states know this. Its a very vivid and discussed fear of theirs. Most vets who are also part of those feds and states and that I know find this funny. Those profiled types are imagined as foes, when if this nation was ever infiltrated those vets would be massive assets----- unless those infiltrators WERE the feds... then, they'd have a problem.
They "make us" and "used us for their games" and then they "fear us" when we're past that obligation, and seek means to neutralize us.
That's hilarious.
If you think well armed citizens can't stand against feds or states, you need to reevaluate your reasoning. The freakin taliban stood against the best trained and equipped military with loads and loads of gadgets with little more than tribal ingenuity... the Iraqi and insurgents of university aged, mostly, fighters laid a hurting on the same military- far more than anyone would have suspected, and did so with little if any training and less equipment.
Taking ground when you don't plan on keeping it or extracting it's resources is easy.... taking it without massive infrastructural damage and retaining it? Not so easy.
Deer hunters from Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Indiana and west Virginia alone amd on opening day represent the largest standing army in the world... add the south and Texas in that, it's three times the largest standing army. If together, nobody is ever taking this nation over from outside amd leaving anything worth having when they're done and if they're successful...
That isn't accidental; that's by design... design of our forefathers before it became corrupt to the core and they began to fear us. The only reason they'd want us disarmed is if they plan on doing something we'd shoot them for. Its that simple. Furthermore and drawn from actual data, a well armed group is highly unlikely to be attacked by criminals. When is the last time a police bar was robbed? Why aren't drug houses raided by other criminals all the time? Has anyone ever busted into a gun club amd tried to hold them up or shoot them? ..... I freakin wonder why.
Kids. That's the only reason a weapon should be secured. And I'm all for having both state sponsored gun handling classes for kids as well as taking a kid at a young young age out with a BB gun and having them kill a bird or a rabbit just so they realize, harshly, how something can be destroyed in a moment and what that feels like.
This is a great post. 10 years ago, I'm not sure I would have agreed with this, but I've been lucky enough to make a couple very close friendships with some incredibly well trained, former military men, two of whom are likely some of the best trained and best shots the military has had. These guys don't take their duty lightly and their duty in their eyes is not specifically blind loyalty to the government.
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This is where I look like the arrogant prick when I refuse to believe you're this dense.
18th century wisdom concerning the US military vs the US citizenry doesn't apply to 21st century US military weaponry vs US citizenry. You must know this and know this is the point. FFS.
Musket vs musket? Sure. A worthwhile enterprise. A chance of victory. A real deterrent in large numbers.
An F-22 payload vs whatever 10 guns you have in your cabinet = give me a fucking break
The fact you think that was my point, only amplifies where the denseness lies.
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This is a great post. 10 years ago, I'm not sure I would have agreed with this, but I've been lucky enough to make a couple very close friendships with some incredibly well trained, former military men, two of whom are likely some of the best trained and best shots the military has had. These guys don't take their duty lightly and their duty in their eyes is not specifically blind loyalty to the government.
More delusions of grandeur.
No ongoing training. None of the new 'toys.'
A bunch of Uncle Ricos who think they're magically maintaining their peak 20 years after the fact.
Respectfully.
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And maybe someday you'll spell his name correctly.
Drew, you sound like you're in the "F-around and find out" crowd.
That's how the one website presented it,point stands unlike your deflection
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This is a great post. 10 years ago, I'm not sure I would have agreed with this, but I've been lucky enough to make a couple very close friendships with some incredibly well trained, former military men, two of whom are likely some of the best trained and best shots the military has had. These guys don't take their duty lightly and their duty in their eyes is not specifically blind loyalty to the government.
My son has the course marksmanship record at Camp Pendleton when he did his Marine boot camp there. Still stands today.
Even today he can bullseye a target a mile away. He has several decorations from his service.
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More delusions of grandeur.
No ongoing training. None of the new 'toys.'
A bunch of Uncle Ricos who think they're magically maintaining their peak 20 years after the fact.
Respectfully.
You're a dismissive a-hole on this topic. You have no idea about these guys and your assumptions about them certainly make you a pompous clown. You have little idea what they did to protect our way of life and you have no idea how intelligent they are, while staying on point with training. You can sit there and believe these guys are dense farm boys that just got to throw on a uniform. They'd put your intellect to shame. My closest friend speaks 8 languages and still actively is at the top of the line in cyber security. There's tons of people that can claim the secondary and it may seem like nothing, but this isn't a lower totem pole dweller. It's a brilliant guy that was also a special forces, airborne ranger, sniper with 2 two tours in the Koregal Valley. His spare time is building rifles piece by piece and training with Stipe Miocic. And his character is top of the line. Pretty sure he's the exact type of badass we all wish the world had more of and we should all be thankful there's guys like this that protect our way of life.
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My son has the course marksmanship record at Camp Pendleton when he did his Marine boot camp there. Still stands today.
Even today he can bullseye a target a mile away. He has several decorations from his service.
That's awesome! I have a tough time when we go and shoot. I think I'm a pretty decent shot and my buddy is definitely a different breed. When he starts blurting out the calculations based on wind speed and distance, i just chuckle. I'm a numbers guy, but his brain function and his ability to shoot from distances is why there's a lot of terrorists 6 feet under from his trigger finger.
Good on your son. A mile away is crazy and I know from witnessing in person how absurd it is lol
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(https://i.imgur.com/27psRkO.jpeg)
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But if it were to happen, you're right, shit has hit the fan and the usual concerns of war no longer matter.
Cost? Wouldn't matter.
Collateral damage? Wouldn't matter.
If it wanted to, the US military could erase any rural town full of hunters. The Taliban were on their home turf....the US would be the home turf of the US soldiers.
Again, we agree it wouldn't happen, but the mindset of being obsessed with the 2nd amendment needs to omit any type of militia nonsense.
It's a childish hero complex fantasy, nothing more.
Your underlying point got lost in your need to be a condescending A-hole. This is not unusual with you.
The point that no random citizen, no matter how well armed they are individually, can actually stand up to the US Military is correct.
That, however, isn't the point. The point is that the armed citizenry makes them KNOW that there will be a price. They can't just do terrible things to us without cost because we CAN fight back. Individually we can't win, but we can fight and that is what matters.
To understand the principle, consider this:
You've probably heard the lyrics to the "Battle Hymn of the Republic" but if not the relevant part is:
"As He has died to make men holy let us live to make men free."
Above is the modern version. Back during the actual Civil War the Union Soldiers marched off to war singing:
"As He has died to make men hold let us die to make men free."
In case the references escape you, "he" refers to Jesus. Nearly 100% of the Union Soldiers were Christians so the reference was obvious to them. Whether YOU believe it or not is completely irrelevant as is whether or not it is true. What IS relevant is that THEY believed that Jesus died for them and they marched off to war singing a song holding that as an example then preparing to "Die to make men free."
My 2-great Grandfather, Joshua, was a Quaker from Ohio. As a Quaker he opposed slavery but the Quakers were also pacifists. He determined that slavery couldn't be ended by sitting around a meeting talking about it so he joined the Union Army specifically for the purpose of ending slavery. His brother (my 3-great Uncle Caleb) was killed in a small town in SE Pennsylvania on July 3, 1863.
Joshua and Caleb marched off to war singing "As He has died to make men holy let us DIE to make men free." because the principle was worth not only killing but dying for.
The right to keep and bear arms is of equal importance. It is worth not only killing but even dying for.
Hitler, Stalin, Mao: The experts agree, Gun Control works!
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I thought they followed orders.....that's like the whole thing with the military.
That defense didn't end well for the criminals tried at Nuremberg.
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Waco was awesome. We need more of that.
What a complete cluster-*$% of an operation.
Some Rambo-complex government functionaries spilled a lot of innocent blood just to show how badass they were.
I didn't know this until years later. I always assumed that Koresh was holed up at the compound and the ONLY way they could get him was to assault the place. MUCH later I learned that he had a habit of going into town for various reasons fairly often. WTF? Why not just ambush his vehicle THEN when you aren't killing women and children as collateral damage?
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You're a dismissive a-hole on this topic.
Really, you think it is only this topic?
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Really, you think it is only this topic?
I was trying to narrow it down. You and I have been a-holes to each other on specific topics, but can be fine on countless others. Maybe my post was made from a position of hope rather than truth.
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Back to Madison...
This thing is taking some really weird turns now.
The girl had two guns. She was working with some guy out in Cali who wanted to blow up government buildings.
Madison school shooting; shooter messaged California man accused of plotting own attack | FOX6 Milwaukee (https://www.fox6now.com/news/madison-school-shooting-california-man-who-messaged-shooter-ordered-surrender-guns)
Madison school shooting victims Erin West, Rubi Vergara mourned (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2024/12/19/madison-school-shooting-victims-erin-west-rubi-patricia-vergara/77088003007/)
How did she get the two guns?
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This thread has gone exactly the way one would expect.
One point that I think often gets lost here: the founders never envisioned that armed rebellion was an appropriate response to the decisions made by a democratically elected federal government.
I don't think there has ever been a serious movement to disarm the population. Are there some zealots who argue for that? Of course. Is there anywhere close to a critical mass to make that happen? No. There are zealots who argue for all kinds of things, but most of them don't get what they want. That's one of the points of representative democracy.
Also, it's an awfully simplified view of history to say that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, history's worst killers, "disarmed" their population to control them. The Soviet Union was hardly "armed" in the first place. Its population was very poor, and largely farmers. And most of Stalin's "killing" came in the form of starvation as a result of ridiculous policies. That's not to say that he didn't terrorize the population, of course he did. But the "disarming" mostly came as the result of winning the Russian civil war. I think the same is true of Mao (although I don't know that history quite as well, but starvation again figured prominently). Hitler took power with the help, if not the votes, of the right-leaning moderates who were terrified of communisim. He was tolerated, including his targeting of the Jewish population becuase economically things in Germany were improving. And when he "disarmed" people, it was largely at the point of a gun (and the blitzkrieg), but it was not so much the German population, it was the Czechs, the Austrians (who didn't really object much), then the Poles. That wasn't oppressing his own population, that was conquering others (and yes, he persecuted German Jews, but non-German Jews made up the bulk of the holocaust). German Jews were less than 1% of Germany's population. They could have been armed to the teeth, and there was no way they could have resisted the might of the German government.
Could the American population resist a well-armed, well-organized federal government? Perhaps, and particularly if the feds "came for our guns." But that's not really how dictators and fascists come to power. And--and to be clear, I'm not saying this is happening--it is more likely that the moderates and right wing unite (which would include the majority of the gunowners), than that the extreme left would affect a takeover of the federal government, then overthrow democracy and oppress the rest of the country. Historically, that is more common than the takeover of an established democracy by the left, and our country trends moderate/conservative much more than moderate/liberal.
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Back to Madison...
This thing is taking some really weird turns now.
The girl had two guns. She was working with some guy out in Cali who wanted to blow up government buildings.
Madison school shooting; shooter messaged California man accused of plotting own attack | FOX6 Milwaukee (https://www.fox6now.com/news/madison-school-shooting-california-man-who-messaged-shooter-ordered-surrender-guns)
Madison school shooting victims Erin West, Rubi Vergara mourned (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2024/12/19/madison-school-shooting-victims-erin-west-rubi-patricia-vergara/77088003007/)
How did she get the two guns?
Ca government going to disarm him. Hope he’s amenable there.
It’ll be interesting where they’re from, for sure. We provably understate how resourceful kids are, especially when the threat of consequences dissipates.
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SFBadger makes coherent unemotional arguments almost as if he was a lawyer.
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Ca government going to disarm him. Hope he’s amenable there.
otherwise it will be from his cold dead fingers
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SFBadger makes coherent unemotional arguments almost as if he was a lawyer.
Haha. Was thinking the same. I'm not on his side of the fence on this topic, but clearly a highly intelligent guy that has great attorneyspeak and forces any reasonable person to take a step back and think through the topic, considering his points.
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Y'all are too kind. I can be a jerk and a dumbass, too, but I don't aspire to that. And I do "like" most of you around here--I value reading your opinions...most of the time.
:)
Specifically to this event, I love things that remind me to think of my friends in Madison, and my memories of it, but this one hurt as the catalyst for that.
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SFBadger makes coherent unemotional arguments almost as if he was a lawyer.
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2F48%2F7f%2F92%2F487f92c44abab6eb15c8b58d3e442823.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=48c78e6611054daec4d057322db441191b501007e76909fc6a5f3a1d305c8fe7&ipo=images) (https://i.pinimg.com/originals/48/7f/92/487f92c44abab6eb15c8b58d3e442823.gif)
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otherwise it will be from his cold dead fingers
Deal.
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Germany going to have to ban cars or at least make them more difficult to get.
https://apnews.com/article/germany-magdeburg-christmas-market-6b2bcf305eb9f60f8d7273949dbba4c8
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Deal.
People that say that probably don't understand how often it happens
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Well it can't come as a surprise to the ones bringing it on themselves. Tough shit.
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There are some situations that I'm not sure if law enforcement needs to kill people in a stand-off.
But, yes, the guy that dies with a gun in his hand certainly had other options
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More delusions of grandeur.
No ongoing training. None of the new 'toys.'
A bunch of Uncle Ricos who think they're magically maintaining their peak 20 years after the fact.
Respectfully.
I can't convince you of something you've no experience with... i've seen business so hectic that 20-30 snatch and grab operations a week were normal. Sending teams out all over the city based on intel or hunches, satellite tracking or based on info shook out of the previous nights customers. The purpose was to disrupt what was simply expected to be a well organized effort by a central organization- and we'd find the cells constantly but could not figure out neither how their orders were communicated or who was sending them... and then it was suggested by someone and dismissed... just for later discovering it was correct.... what was it?
A gaggle of many many tangos aka insurgents but operating in cells of no more than 10 or 12... 15 at most... 4 or five often... and who may or may not have known about other cells letting loose the same mayhem they were- like rivals outdoing each other but accomplishing actions seemingly in concert and to what we believed to be coordinated efforts. It wasn't. It was just a gaggle of tangos with similar or the same sentiment, and that which was communicated not from a central command/handlers, but through broadcast radio or the little speeches broadcast over the loudspeakers after the morning call to prayer. We spent who knows how much time and effort trying to find the 'bosses' when their weren't any, and the independence of those teams/cells made patterns or trends incredibly difficult to identify, because they didn't exist. These are PhD level directors and very experienced leaders working with the best critical skills operators on the planet, so don't cough up dumbassery as the cause for this.
From those experiences, every man involved learned that a small group can cause mass mayhem- and several small groups operating to the same overarching ends can do ten fold that... and twice that number of cells, they could take over the region, and did.
^ thats the world of a-symetrical warfare. That's what wars from Somalia to Syria, Libya to Afghanistan taught us. And the folks participating? They took notes so they'd know how to better handle it if encountered in the future- and how they'd employ it if ever facing vastly superior forces. ... and is the reason our government fears those guys.
There is major concern about what a group within the training and experience could do in docile America- where none of that mess has ever been experienced. There are doctrines and books written about it.
Delusions of grandeur? You and your brethren only call it that because your media offered it up in effort to shame and reduce the threats within your own minds... Biden says "what good would a rifle do against an f15?"... as if he's certain his side would be able to use those tools.
There are delusions here for certain- but they aren't of grandeur by who you've been conditioned to dismiss... theyre instead delusion from/by your side for underestimating what they could do 'if they had the mind to'. It's a very good thing these types aren't of the mind to, but instead to protect peace at almost any cost which is deeply programmed into them.... and, by the way, most those guys are trained in counter insurgency, which is training host nations rebels... meaning, one guy in the know could easily bring a group of good Ole boys or gang banger types to wreck command structures the govt would have to rely on.
Strategies and tactics... im going to guess you know little of such.
The good news is, further, none of this will happen. Our govt is greedy, careless, corrupt, but they're not stupid or crazy. They think they're the smartest people in the room, and they may be in one or two measures, but they ain't the most dangerous nor the most resolved without the backing of citizens. And that's what it boils down to- if citizens turn on each other because of the stupid games our govt and elected exploit for their own gain, we could damn well end up like in a situation like mao, Hitler, Stalin, Hussain or even as current Nkorea, china... but people won't let that happen, i hope. You can easily be convinced to condemn me for not getting a jab or wearing a mask and feel as if you're superior, but are you willing to kill wholesale anyone who defies those orders?
If you are, you're the problem.. not those you wrongfully dismiss as having 'delusions of grandeur".
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It's well worth noting that we spent billions of dollars trying to control Afghanistan and had every technological advantage one could want, and still could never hold any significant portion of the country for any length of time.
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It's well worth noting that we spent billions of dollars trying to control Afghanistan and had every technological advantage one could want, and still could never hold any significant portion of the country for any length of time.
It's also worth noting that we learned nothing about the Soviet attempt to do the same in that country.
Two complete failures.
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Germany going to have to ban cars or at least make them more difficult to get.
https://apnews.com/article/germany-magdeburg-christmas-market-6b2bcf305eb9f60f8d7273949dbba4c8
fuck these assholes someone else knew about it..Give them their fatwa
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I can't convince you of something you've no experience with... i've seen business so hectic that 20-30 snatch and grab operations a week were normal. Sending teams out all over the city based on intel or hunches, satellite tracking or based on info shook out of the previous nights customers. The purpose was to disrupt what was simply expected to be a well organized effort by a central organization- and we'd find the cells constantly but could not figure out neither how their orders were communicated or who was sending them... and then it was suggested by someone and dismissed... just for later discovering it was correct.... what was it?
A gaggle of many many tangos aka insurgents but operating in cells of no more than 10 or 12... 15 at most... 4 or five often... and who may or may not have known about other cells letting loose the same mayhem they were- like rivals outdoing each other but accomplishing actions seemingly in concert and to what we believed to be coordinated efforts. It wasn't. It was just a gaggle of tangos with similar or the same sentiment, and that which was communicated not from a central command/handlers, but through broadcast radio or the little speeches broadcast over the loudspeakers after the morning call to prayer. We spent who knows how much time and effort trying to find the 'bosses' when their weren't any, and the independence of those teams/cells made patterns or trends incredibly difficult to identify, because they didn't exist. These are PhD level directors and very experienced leaders working with the best critical skills operators on the planet, so don't cough up dumbassery as the cause for this.
From those experiences, every man involved learned that a small group can cause mass mayhem- and several small groups operating to the same overarching ends can do ten fold that... and twice that number of cells, they could take over the region, and did.
^ thats the world of a-symetrical warfare. That's what wars from Somalia to Syria, Libya to Afghanistan taught us. And the folks participating? They took notes so they'd know how to better handle it if encountered in the future- and how they'd employ it if ever facing vastly superior forces. ... and is the reason our government fears those guys.
There is major concern about what a group within the training and experience could do in docile America- where none of that mess has ever been experienced. There are doctrines and books written about it.
Delusions of grandeur? You and your brethren only call it that because your media offered it up in effort to shame and reduce the threats within your own minds... Biden says "what good would a rifle do against an f15?"... as if he's certain his side would be able to use those tools.
There are delusions here for certain- but they aren't of grandeur by who you've been conditioned to dismiss... theyre instead delusion from/by your side for underestimating what they could do 'if they had the mind to'. It's a very good thing these types aren't of the mind to, but instead to protect peace at almost any cost which is deeply programmed into them.... and, by the way, most those guys are trained in counter insurgency, which is training host nations rebels... meaning, one guy in the know could easily bring a group of good Ole boys or gang banger types to wreck command structures the govt would have to rely on.
Strategies and tactics... im going to guess you know little of such.
The good news is, further, none of this will happen. Our govt is greedy, careless, corrupt, but they're not stupid or crazy. They think they're the smartest people in the room, and they may be in one or two measures, but they ain't the most dangerous nor the most resolved without the backing of citizens. And that's what it boils down to- if citizens turn on each other because of the stupid games our govt and elected exploit for their own gain, we could damn well end up like in a situation like mao, Hitler, Stalin, Hussain or even as current Nkorea, china... but people won't let that happen, i hope. You can easily be convinced to condemn me for not getting a jab or wearing a mask and feel as if you're superior, but are you willing to kill wholesale anyone who defies those orders?
If you are, you're the problem.. not those you wrongfully dismiss as having 'delusions of grandeur".
Yeah, this is what I'm talking about. From your tone, you're also folding in delusions of nobility, lol. I don't enjoy seemingly talking down veterans and/or whoever else you'd lump in with them in their organized stepped-in-an-ant-pile tactics.
I'm glad it'll never happen, but if the gov't is needing to attack our own people on our own soil, the rules go out the window. This is one of many reasons correlations to the middle east problems don't really apply. Tactical strikes vs scorched earth. Global war ethics vs do whatever the hell you want. If it got to that point, there would be no rules. And where are the hundreds of years of utilized tunnels here in the US? How many of those fighting back are these types you described vs just a dude with a gun and a certain ideology? 1 of 10? 2 of 10?
I just see your post and think it's a cool 'rah-rah' underdog story that might win a battle here or there, but on the whole, are getting blown away with ease. The fun part is that neither of us can be demonstrably right or wrong, yet my conviction is somehow less valid than yours? What? LOL
Have fun with it, because that's all it is. A 'what if' conversation.
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So much bullshit where do I start? - you say "Delusions of nobility" and "I don't enjoy seemingly talking down veterans"? You're right you enjoy actually talking down to everybody but only give Drew - owner of the site-surprise-a wide berth because he has his finger on a button, we all wish he would push.
You say "I'm glad it'll never happen" oh and we know this because you have told us so :D. Turning an asinine assumption into an astute observation. You say "but if the gov't is needing to attack our own people on our own soil, the rules go out the window" opening the damn borders is already starting to do just that only from another direction.
You say "The fun part is that neither of us can be demonstrably right or wrong, yet my conviction is somehow less valid than yours? What? LOL" But you gleefully glossed over what he said "I can't convince you of something you've no experience with... i've seen business so hectic that 20-30 snatch and grab operations a week were normal." Drew speaking from experience and background per usual you a poltroon bark out of your backside go play whoa nellie or with yourself something you're good at.
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Germany going to have to ban cars or at least make them more difficult to get.
https://apnews.com/article/germany-magdeburg-christmas-market-6b2bcf305eb9f60f8d7273949dbba4c8
Ahh yes, that silly argument. Like, I'm probably less interested in gun control than most here, and that remains deeply silly.
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Ahh yes, that silly argument. Like, I'm probably less interested in gun control than most here, and that remains deeply silly.
Um that was sarcasm BAB
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Um that was sarcasm BAB
I'm aware.
But it's sarcasm in support of an argument, and that presentation remains silly.
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most talking points are deeply silly after a teenage girl uses two guns to shot people at her school
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most talking points are deeply silly after a teenage girl uses two guns to shot people at her school
But I was told they're more like cars. Just objects that can be used for good an ill.
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one reason there's no sense arguing about gun control
there's no reasoning.....
It quickly goes to dictators in past history disarming the public (cold dead fingers) to taking away cars and table knives
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one reason there's no sense arguing about gun control
there's no reasoning.....
It quickly goes to dictators in past history disarming the public (cold dead fingers) to taking away cars and table knives
I'd agree with that. And it's not even like most gun people are actually anti-gun control, anyway.
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Ed Zachery
We can talk about bump stocks and 30 round clips
Semi-auto rifles & shotguns aren't going away or deemed to be illegal (no one is coming to take your legal guns)
assault rifles are already banned (fully auto)
we did discuss the responsibility of owning a gun and what the punishment might be if your firearm falls into the wrong hands
I'm all for more education and training and responsibility to own a deadly weapon.
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most talking points are deeply silly after a teenage girl uses two guns to shot people at her school
First off, i greatly appreciate this post... ive done what i dislike the most, which is politicizing a bad circumstance.
We're focusing on the tools. If someone wants to kill or maim someone else, those firesticks are the obvious choice... while more people are killed with knives still, in this country.
Psych drugs play a major role in just about every circumstance recorded. We could argue about that. But that isn't it. We could talk about video games, but that isn't it either.
There is a sentiment that has corrupted where life isn't held in regard and where people believe their own beliefs justify actions to those they oppose and justifies terrible things just because... live and let live is gone.
My entire point is a small motivated group with bad intentions can and will cause straight havoc if they seek to, and it's evidenced in this specific subject by a child in Madison and an accomplice in California who was passively involved. Now imagine a thousand of her at once across the nation. ... but according to 'fro, we could take em out with artillery and rockets? I'd like to see Nancy Pelosi crawling into the cockpit of an f18 preparing to do this... because it would be just that- they aren't rulers and their demands have limitations.
Being spoken to as if the entire subject is "what if" is funny... because it's not "what if"... its happened. It can be studied instead of imagined..... at least my vantage can.
Opinions vary and all wrapped up demonstrate the sentiment of a society. We can see it here, and instead of being mad maybe we should appreciate that someone's opinion was shared- no matter how alien- and use it to help us figure out where we're wrong, and in hopes to figure out where we can be right and allow peace to rule the day because of that understanding. There is a reason free speech is listed above right to bear arms... instead of "resorting" to the second, we ought to exhaust, completley, the first.... which is something of a personal endeavor with the operation of this site- talking, bitching, venting, sharing, but communicating...
Without that^ I'd not know that 'fro is a decent guy outside of the obvious irritations that are often only imagined amd certainly not worth being set into violent actions about.
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I'd like to see Nancy Pelosi crawling into the cockpit of an f18 preparing to do this...
8 hours bottle to throttle.
Not happening.
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So much bullshit where do I start? - you say "Delusions of nobility" and "I don't enjoy seemingly talking down veterans"? You're right you enjoy actually talking down to everybody but only give Drew - owner of the site-surprise-a wide berth because he has his finger on a button, we all wish he would push.
You say "I'm glad it'll never happen" oh and we know this because you have told us so :D. Turning an asinine assumption into an astute observation. You say "but if the gov't is needing to attack our own people on our own soil, the rules go out the window" opening the damn borders is already starting to do just that only from another direction.
You say "The fun part is that neither of us can be demonstrably right or wrong, yet my conviction is somehow less valid than yours? What? LOL" But you gleefully glossed over what he said "I can't convince you of something you've no experience with... i've seen business so hectic that 20-30 snatch and grab operations a week were normal." Drew speaking from experience and background per usual you a poltroon bark out of your backside go play whoa nellie or with yourself something you're good at.
Is your handler on a bathroom break or something? Thanks for your mature reply.
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Thanks for being a dick and ignoring his point, you don't respond well to good manners & proper etiquette or to dismissive sarcasm either
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Just having a conversation. Sorry that's difficult for you. I hope your sponsor replies soon.
*And maybe Drew is aware that echo chambers aren't a good thing
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My sponsor? The Arizona School Board??? Quit mixing your stoli mudslides with your estrogen supplements not coming out well in your posts. Popping off because he patted you on your head?
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I forgive you.
You're probably dealing with something I don't struggle with.
I hope you get through this difficult time.
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Ya stress is brought on when the mind overides the body's basic desire to choke the living shit out of some asshole who desperately needs it - precious. Go play whoa nellie,you'll feel better about yourself
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I forgive your threat of violence.
I hope you get that 'script refilled ASAP.
Get better, buddy.
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Not threatening anyone you poor trampled cabbage leaf but you are a fugitive from the law of averages.Not going to shit up the forum doorways any longer with your I'm rubber you're glue drivel. Have a blessed Christmas precious :039::111: