CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Cincydawg on December 11, 2024, 08:16:22 AM
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He just posted in the other news thread he's doing well.
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Good news. Thanks.
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thanks
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@847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) Hey badge CD created a thread for you to keep us updated, hope you get the pain under control and thanks for checking in with us!
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This was definitely worth its own thread! Great to hear you’re doing well Badge!
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Glad he's doing well enough now to complain to the nurses about the quality of the hospital food :57:
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Thanks for the update!
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We need a new report.
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Ed Zachery
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Another rough day .
Hopefully today I can turn the corner 🙏
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Another rough day .
Hopefully today I can turn the corner 🙏
First 48 hours are always the worst. Progress is coming soon!! You got this Badge!!
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dont know what's going on, but gald you're doing better badger.
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hang in there
give em heck!
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Any updates Badge??
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dont know what's going on, but gald you're doing better badger.
"So, my open-heart surgery is on Tuesday, but the hospital wants me there at 10:30 AM tomorrow. I guess they want me to have another day of hospital food and bad sleep???
I've never heard of this practice, and I have no idea what they are going to do to me for a whole day.
Anyone else ever have this happen?"
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Speedy recovery and well wishes from Columbus.
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Howdy.
Got home late Friday. Doc was not going to let me go because no bowel movement, but I pushed hard, and he let me go. No pain meds.
Feels like I got hit in the chest by a cinder block at 300 MPH.
Surgery sucks.
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glad you were able to push hard!
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Wish I had pain meds. And an appetite. And normal bodily, umm, functions.
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Great news 847. Glad to know you’re on the mend.
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your choice on the pain meds?
the meds usually cause harder pushing than normal
don't worry about the appetite, it'll show up soon
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They gave me 42 pills of oxy after my shoulder surgery, I took one. It stopped me up good. I got some stuff to help things move along, after a while it was OK.
The pain wasn't that bad that some ibu wasn't decent, that of course was minor stuff, artho etc.
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your choice on the pain meds?
the meds usually cause harder pushing than normal
don't worry about the appetite, it'll show up soon
It was either no pain meds or stay in the hospital.
I didn't want the heavy stuff. I wanted Tramadol. And I just found some leftovers.
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When I had my lumbar fused, I was out for 8 hours.
I didn't shit for two weeks and still lost weight.
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not sure why docs won't listen to their patients a little more on pain med recommendations
maybe because some patients abuse the system and can't be trusted
I blame Brett Farve - despicable human
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It was either no pain meds or stay in the hospital.
I didn't want the heavy stuff. I wanted Tramadol. And I just found some leftovers.
That’s literally the only pain med I will take as well. Too many negative issues with the rest of the main ones.
sorry to hear about the chest pain and it sucks to hear, but every day will get better. And hopefully not many here know it, but after incredibly long surgeries, the first bowel movement after may be freaking worse than the damn surgery pain.
Heal well!!
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not sure why docs won't listen to their patients a little more on pain med recommendations
maybe because some patients abuse the system and can't be trusted
I blame Brett Farve - despicable human
1st off it's good you're out and moving 847 getting pissy is a good sign ;D.
After my hernia I told the surgeon I wouldn't use them unless extremely painful.He still gave me 60 oxycodone(that can block you up).I had the same problem as Badge the jerks NEVER told me to use laxatives - that was the painful part not the surgery
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They probably KICKED him out of the hospital and refused to give him pain meds as punishment ////
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Why is Tramadol preferred over other opiods?
[th][color=var(--COEmY)]Potency[/font][/size][/color][/th]
[th][color=var(--COEmY)]Equivalent dose to 10mg oral morphine[/font][/size][/color][/th]
Morphine
1
10mg
Oxycodone
1.5
6.6mg
Tapentadol
0.4
25mg
Tramadol
0.1
100mg
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1st off it's good you're out and moving 847 getting pissy is a good sign ;D.
After my hernia I told the surgeon I wouldn't use them unless extremely painful.He still gave me 60 oxycodone(that can block you up).I had the same problem as Badge the jerks NEVER told me to use laxatives - that was the painful part not the surgery
Dude.. same.. For the hernia surgery, I just used tylenol and lightly. I also got smart and did laxatives prior to surgery. The brain surgery i did laxatives after, which was too late and damn, 8 hours of anesthesia, whether its propofol or alternative, is simply the best way to make your next bowel movement one of the worst experiences you could imagine.
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I don't think propofol will stop your digestive track. They might have used an opiod before or after IV. My daughter was given morphine before her surgeries. She started talking her head off, she normally doesn't speak much.
I got some fairly complex anesthetic for my cataract surgery including some fentanyl. They said I was not "out" and I kind of vaguely recall some of it but not much. It wasn't enough to cause me issues. I was given propofol for shoulder surgery, it went fine for me.
The chemical structures of various anesthetics range all over the place, cyclopropane is one for example, very different from anything else.
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I don't think propofol will stop your digestive track.
It absolutely does. My wife is a surgical nurse so gave me a ton of guidance and wisdom after the debacle of the aftermath of the brain surgery. Think about what it's doing? It's basically shutting down your brain and nervous system and decrease muscle ability. Food moves through our gastro using muscle contractions, so shutting that down for an extended period of time means limited digestive movement.
To your point, opiods can also come into play and impact muscle ability so when there's both opiods and propofol in play, some folks have a bowel situation that is similar to having boulders in their gastro tract because no movement, no softness.. the exact opposite of what happens when things fly through that area too fast.
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Yeah, 8 hours under, that makes sense. I wasn't under more than an hour, so it had no impact that I noticed. It's not listed as a side effect.
I seem to tolerate propofol pretty well, I wake up feeling fine.
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Yeah, 8 hours under, that makes sense. I wasn't under more than an hour, so it had no impact that I noticed. It's not listed as a side effect.
I seem to tolerate propofol pretty well, I wake up feeling fine.
ahh.. yes, now i get your perspective.. Yes, for sure short interactions with propofol likely won't impact the system at all.. Just the much more extensive longer surgeries. Most tolerate it well.
My hernia surgery i didn't really notice much impact, but there's a reason the medical community really tries to limit how long or how many times people are under anesthesia if they can. My situation, tough to gauge if my body didn't love the propofol that long or the skull because removed in two different locations.. or possibly the blown vein in my arms that was the direct connect to the heart.. thinking my body didn't like any of it.. probably also why i looked like a 90 year old anorexic man for a decent period of time. Isn't getting old great.
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You've had more than your quota for sure.
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Let's see... Propofol... Times approximate.
Hernia 1: 0.45
Hernia 2: 1:30
Laminectomy lumbar: 3:30
Lumbar Fusion: 7:45
Spinal ablation: 0:45
Ankle/Fibula Fusion: 2:30
UPPP: 3:30
Deviated Septum: 1:45
Wisdom teeth: 1:00
Stent 1: 0:30
Stent 2: 0:45
Open Heart: 6:30
Probably too much for me. I don't think I'm missing anything, but I could be.
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I had wisdom teeth removed in 1972, they used Pentathol as a sedative which was good stuff and barbiturates to put me under, I asked.
Shoulder surgery - propofol
Heart procedure - same
Cataracts - cocktail, not completely under.
The eye doc does 17 cataracts in one day.
My heart thing was done in a room that looked like it is out of Star Trek, brand new hospital.
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Let's see... Propofol... Times approximate.
Hernia 1: 0.45
Hernia 2: 1:30
Laminectomy lumbar: 3:30
Lumbar Fusion: 7:45
Spinal ablation: 0:45
Ankle/Fibula Fusion: 2:30
UPPP: 3:30
Deviated Septum: 1:45
Wisdom teeth: 1:00
Stent 1: 0:30
Stent 2: 0:45
Open Heart: 6:30
Probably too much for me. I don't think I'm missing anything, but I could be.
Wow.I'll give you credit. A lot of people that have been through that much would be consistently grumpy or have a negative outlook on life. Still a positive grounded person !
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I'm thankful generally I've avoided major health complications. My wife has had three hip replacements and shoulder rotator cuff repair, which was far worse.
A positive attitude is healthier, I think, if one can manage it. My wife donates to St. Jude's, which I hope is legit, they advertise too much for my tastes, but children getting cancer would be about the worst. Children getting sick is bad enough. My kids were remarkably healthy, and have been since growing up, some athletic injuries.
My daughter was visiting last week and said he knees seemed to be fine. She's starting to have gray hair.
My shoulder was a 50 year old injury, the doc said he could tell, it was kind of a mess in there.
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gonna quit reading this thread....... geez
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Getting all misty eyed fogging up the lenses or are schooners of draught half price until 7 ???
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Be sure to drink that schooner over the sink, for safety.
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maybe one too many Schooners last night celebrating Christmas with my daughter
eyes aren't misty but not 100% this morning
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Home health Occupational Therapy (OT) came today - they just left.
They determined I don't need OT, so I'm dismissed from that requirement.
Home health Physical Therapy (PT) comes at 1:30, which I do think I need because I want to progress to the Cardiac Rehab program. PT will get me there.
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If she was a looker, you might need some OT, amiright?!?!
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Actually... she was pretty hot.
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Home health Occupational Therapy (OT) came today - they just left.
They determined I don't need OT, so I'm dismissed from that requirement.
Home health Physical Therapy (PT) comes at 1:30, which I do think I need because I want to progress to the Cardiac Rehab program. PT will get me there.
We like that you’re moving along.
Also, PT can be kind of enjoyable. Right?
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if she's hot
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We like that you’re moving along.
Also, PT can be kind of enjoyable. Right?
Looking forward to being able to move well again and do a real workout.
Been a while, like since I broke my leg a couple of years ago.
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Its been a while. How are you doing.
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It's a process. Chest still hurts a lot. No more pain meds though. Breathing hurts so I get short of breath pretty easy.
They said 8-12 weeks. I'm beginning to think they meant it.
At least this is the "crappiest" time of year for weather. Been chilly and windy so not missing much boating and such.
Thanks for asking.
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It's a process. Chest still hurts a lot. No more pain meds though. Breathing hurts so I get short of breath pretty easy.
They said 8-12 weeks. I'm beginning to think they meant it.
At least this is the "crappiest" time of year for weather. Been chilly and windy so not missing much boating and such.
Thanks for asking.
Hang in there Badge.
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It's a process. Chest still hurts a lot. No more pain meds though. Breathing hurts so I get short of breath pretty easy.
They said 8-12 weeks. I'm beginning to think they meant it.
At least this is the "crappiest" time of year for weather. Been chilly and windy so not missing much boating and such.
Thanks for asking.
I hate it when the doctor is right
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Thanks for the update @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) .
When it gets tough just remember to be glad you live when and where you do.
I never met my paternal Grandfather. He was born in 1910 and started having heart problems in his 50's in the 1960's. I believe he'd had a couple minor heart attacks but I'm not even sure if the Doctors of that time knew for sure.
He died of a heart attack in 1970.
My dad told me once that a few weeks after his dad passed, the Cleveland Clinic called. They didn't know and were calling to schedule a visit. Basically the gist of it was that my grandfather was going to get assessed for open heart surgery but back in 1970 that was cutting edge stuff and he obviously didn't get there in time.
My dad was born in 1940 and despite my brother and I both being relatively late bloomers in the having families department, he got to see most of his grandkids basically because of modern medicine. Dad had his first heart attack at 61 in early 2002. They stuck a stent in him and sent him home and he lived almost 20 more years (including a bunch more stents).
Fifty years ago a blockage like the one you had probably would have meant chest pain and shortness of breath for a few months or maybe a few years if you were lucky and then the big one and curtains. Now, even though it couldn't be fixed with a stent, it still just means surgery and a tough recovery and your remaining lifespan is likely to be measured in decades rather than weeks.
Good luck in your continuing recovery.
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did not know about this but am so happy to see yer on the mend bf
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I asked when my procedure was developed and was told "Around 1997, before that it was treated with drugs, and not very well" (atrial flutter). It had reduced me into "old man" status, I had trouble climbing stairs, and suddenly, was cured. I know "medicine" takes abuse for various reasons but a lot of it is life extending and life quality enhancing.
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I asked when my procedure was developed and was told "Around 1997, before that it was treated with drugs, and not very well" (atrial flutter). It had reduced me into "old man" status, I had trouble climbing stairs, and suddenly, was cured. I know "medicine" takes abuse for various reasons but a lot of it is life extending and life quality enhancing.
And then there is this odd conundrum:
Neither of my paternal grandparents suffered from any "old-age" type ailments. They simply didn't live long enough. Both died in their early 60's.
My dad died at 80 after a 10+ year struggle with Alzheimer's. That was brutal to go through but, OTOH, without modern medicine we wouldn't have had to go through it because he'd have died 15-20 years sooner and simply not lived long enough to get it.
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Going in a week from today to have my right leg cleared out. Then a week after that for my left leg. Blockage free in two weeks.
Have lost quite a bit of weight and haven't had a smoke in 2 months.
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:o Cigars right?
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My maternal grandfather smoked often and died at 70. My paternal relatives were long lived, I don't think any of them smoked, couldn't afford it in part. Two of them lived past the century mark. My parents made 93. At some point, an unexpected or unusual ailment can catch a person, they break a leg and get immobile for a time and can't ever get it back.
I think being able to walk is a critical feature for older folks. It's a huge enabler. Obviously the mental aspect is also critical. If you can walk and be sensible when you hit 80 it's a pretty good thing, just try and stay that way for many more years.
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:o Cigars right?
Yes. Not a good alternative to cigarettes, I've come to learn.
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I think being able to walk is a critical feature for older folks. It's a huge enabler. Obviously the mental aspect is also critical. If you can walk and be sensible when you hit 80 it's a pretty good thing, just try and stay that way for many more years.
So true.
My mom turned 80 two weeks ago. Back in February she walked into the hospital for surgery. Recovery was a disaster and she is now what is called a "Hoyer Lift" because she is completely immobile. Her deterioration over ~10 months of not walking is astounding.
Her mom lived to 103 and a year ago I had little reason to believe that she wouldn't match or at least approach that. Today she looks so elderly and frail that I'd be shocked if she lived five more years.
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I get asked at times about retirement and where to retire, what surprised me, what I do with my time, etc.
My first comment is "Go where things encourage you to walk." If you like golf or tennis, whatever, do it, move where it's easier to do. I pretty much gave up golf many years ago. I just saw my clubs yesterday in the storage room covered in dust and thought about going to the range.
I can still run and lift a bit, which is great, but if all I could manage was walking I'd feel lucky. I'm not 80 (yet).
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:o Cigars right?
the Huskers and Vikings don't give many opportunities for victory cigars
I'm almost too healthy!
(https://i.imgur.com/c0IIJGt.png)
Red lived to be 89
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And then there is this odd conundrum:
Neither of my paternal grandparents suffered from any "old-age" type ailments. They simply didn't live long enough. Both died in their early 60's.
My dad died at 80 after a 10+ year struggle with Alzheimer's. That was brutal to go through but, OTOH, without modern medicine we wouldn't have had to go through it because he'd have died 15-20 years sooner and simply not lived long enough to get it.
This is a paradox within modern medicine. We are capable of prolonging life, but the life that is prolonged is often "brutal." The problem is identifying when to call it quits, i.e., when to turn off the faucet that is medical care. That is a very, very difficult decision, and one that most people haven't really put the necessary thought into. And that leads to providing the care at all costs, keeping it all going.
And it is one of the reasons our medical care is so expensive. The amount of money we spend to prolong life in the last year of life is immense (and largely on the medicare dime). But how to control that? "Death panels," anyone? :)
Our family is currently in the throes of this. Very hard situation.
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This is a paradox within modern medicine. We are capable of prolonging life, but the life that is prolonged is often "brutal." The problem is identifying when to call it quits, i.e., when to turn off the faucet that is medical care. That is a very, very difficult decision, and one that most people haven't really put the necessary thought into. And that leads to providing the care at all costs, keeping it all going.
And it is one of the reasons our medical care is so expensive. The amount of money we spend to prolong life in the last year of life is immense (and largely on the medicare dime). But how to control that? "Death panels," anyone? :)
Our family is currently in the throes of this. Very hard situation.
I went through this in 2019. My Ma went in shortly after the new year and never came out.
She was deemed cancer-free the day after Thanksgiving, 2018, via a PET Scan.
The problem? PET Scans don't detect the brain, which was littered with cancer.
So, she tried for about a month or so. One day she looked at me, shook her head, and said "I'm ready to fly the coup".
I talked to my brothers and into hospice she went. 2 days later, she was gone.
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This is a paradox within modern medicine. We are capable of prolonging life, but the life that is prolonged is often "brutal." The problem is identifying when to call it quits, i.e., when to turn off the faucet that is medical care. That is a very, very difficult decision, and one that most people haven't really put the necessary thought into. And that leads to providing the care at all costs, keeping it all going.
And it is one of the reasons our medical care is so expensive. The amount of money we spend to prolong life in the last year of life is immense (and largely on the medicare dime). But how to control that? "Death panels," anyone? :)
Our family is currently in the throes of this. Very hard situation.
Having been there with my dad and heading there with my mom, good luck. Like you said, very hard situation.
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Hospice care is a type of palliative care that focuses on providing comfort, dignity, and quality of life for people who are terminally ill or approaching the end of their life.
Is that a good definition?
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Hospice care is a type of palliative care that focuses on providing comfort, dignity, and quality of life for people who are terminally ill or approaching the end of their life.
Is that a good definition?
Yes. And additionally, typically in hospice you've given up on trying to "treat" the conditions that's killing someone, and stop any attempts at curative care.
You're just trying to make them as comfortable as you can until they go.
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My sister was in a "home" for about five years unable to move or speak, I don't recall that it was called hospice, but maybe it was the same kind of thing. She passed away in October, which seems like a blessing.
She started with symptoms maybe 12 years ago, slurring speech as if she was drunk, then difficulty walking, then all her motor skills just ebbed away unable to be treated. Her condition is called PLS, which is very similar to ALS.
My wife has told me on numerous occasions she doesn't not want to be resuscitated. There still is a kind of blurry line in all that I think.
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Yes. And additionally, typically in hospice you've given up on trying to "treat" the conditions that's killing someone, and stop any attempts at curative care.
You're just trying to make them as comfortable as you can until they go.
Morphine.
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Happy Birthday, Jimbo!
Glad you're still with us after all these years!
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Thanks!
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HBD amigo. Keep on improving!
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Enjoy Badge! And many many more!
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My wife came down with what seems like the flu, which is "going around". She said she hadn't felt this bad since we both got it in Hawaii about the same time as this. That was horrible. So far I have no symptoms, no doubt a result of clean living. We both had a flu shot which is somewhat effective, sometimes. She wants to delay going to Orlando which is Jan. 8, I suspect she'll be better by then, I hope I'm not worse. I spend a lot of money to play baseball starting January 14 and being sick there would be unfun. I spend all year trying to get in shape for it which is my motivation to work out.
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My wife came down with what seems like the flu, which is "going around". She said she hadn't felt this bad since we both got it in Hawaii about the same time as this. That was horrible. So far I have no symptoms, no doubt a result of clean living. We both had a flu shot which is somewhat effective, sometimes. She wants to delay going to Orlando which is Jan. 8, I suspect she'll be better by then, I hope I'm not worse. I spend a lot of money to play baseball starting January 14 and being sick there would be unfun. I spend all year trying to get in shape for it which is my motivation to work out.
Check for norovirus. That is going around, and it feels like the flu.
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She has no GI symptoms, just is very tired and achey with a bad cough.
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Influenza A is going around here. Good thing school is out, the kids are the number one threat vector in our house.
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Symptoms of the flu such as a sore throat and a runny or stuffy nose are common. You may also get these symptoms with other illness such as a cold. But colds tend to start slowly, and the flu tends to come on quickly, within two or three days after you come in contact with the virus. And while a cold can be miserable, you usually feel much worse with the flu.
Other common flu symptoms include:
- Fever.
- Cough.
- Headache.
- Muscle aches.
- Feeling very tired.
- Sweating and chills.
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I'm battling a light cold right now. Started a few days ago with sore throat primarily upon waking up, and now it's just some light coughing and stuffiness. Hasn't slowed me down, so I don't intend to do anything about it.
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COVID
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COVID
Maybe. Don't plan to test, so we'll never know.
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Norovirus and Flu are currently high spread in Iowa.
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Badger, as for our group, this means we must recruit because if we lose you, where are we? We won't lose you, now, but ... I am old, others are too. We need more members.
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If you are about to go, go like my dad 1.5 years ago. He was 90. He had leukemia. He told mom the night before, "I just feel so exhausted." He used a walker about 5-weeks.
Later that night, she caught him doing squats, bracing himself with his walker. Dad was going to work himself back into condition. Next morning she gets up at her usual 4:30 a.m., she let him sleep in. At 7:30 a.m. she went to awaken him, "Sweetheart, Sweetheart." He didn't respond; dad died in his sleep. Dying in his sleep, was the only comforting thing.
I live 1,500 miles away. My tenant above my law office died unexpectedly in his bed. The police officer who did the welfare check told me my tenant died with his eyes open. I asked my brother who was present. My dad died with his eyes closed, which was comforting, to me.
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All that said, get your ass out of bed, and move!
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Badger, as for our group, this means we must recruit because if we lose you, where are we? We won't lose you, now, but ... I am old, others are too. We need more members.
Not going anywhere. I'm only 58 - just some bumps in the road brought upon by a bad diet and probably heredity (don't know - I'm adopted). But thank you. And yes, we could use members for sure.
I'm supposed to get my blockages in my legs fixed, starting with the right leg, on Tuesday.
I got a call from the doctor's group (same group who did my hear on 12/10) yesterday evening and they tell me they are out of my insurance network as of 01/01/2025.
WTF?
Do vascular surgeons grow on trees?
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Not going anywhere. I'm only 58 - just some bumps in the road brought upon by a bad diet and probably heredity (don't know - I'm adopted). But thank you. And yes, we could use members for sure.
I was just going to post that,thought i might have missed something from his posts and you ended up in the ER.I try staying tethered with food consumption by eating healthy but I'm smitten by Dagwoods,Brats and such - stay the course my friend
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Maybe. Don't plan to test, so we'll never know.
Atta Boy lets go pinch Fauci's head like a zit
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frickin insurance companies
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Happy Birthday, Jimbo!
Glad you're still with us after all these years!
Missed this too Yes
The Sun is shinning up in the sky,
The lake is filled with Trout,
You were younger yesterday,
I thought I'd point that out.
Happy Birthday
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frickin insurance companies
Yes.
We pay a very premium price for BC/BS PPO, and this is what we get.
Shitty insurance since 2009. We (don't) get to keep our doctor.
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I got good health insurance pretty cheap as part of my retiree plan, fortunately.
I never understand why some things are billed to me, and some are not.
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It costs less to insure me through my wife's retirement plan than it does to insure me through my own company, so we do that.
It's still $650/each/month through her plan (BC/BS from Baxter Healthcare).
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Yeah, I know I got a deal. Somehow.
Well, I'm old so part of mind is Medicare, I recall the fees went down when I hit that point.
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Our fees drop to ~ $150/each/month when Medicare kicks in.
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only 2 1/2 years for me
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I got good health insurance pretty cheap as part of my retiree plan, fortunately.
I never understand why some things are billed to me, and some are not.
Greedy fooks are trying to see if fine,honest folks can be chiseled out of more - I got raked over the coals in '18/'19 with over 8,000.00 out of pocket.Those two hospitals bent me over.They tried screwing me yet again I told them where they can go and how long they can stay there. I still get a reminder of 285.00 for facility charges. I shot back for what?wiping my feet on the walk off mat when i entered? Also pointed out it didn't appear they upgraded the parking garage from my last visit so why these fraudulent charges? Wasn't the response they were looking for.Sothey threatened me with small claims court. I shot back i eagerly await the summons - cricketts
Ah but if you can't speak English or even Spanish well then "come right in we'll take care of you and just charge schleppers like Nubbz more when he stops by next" - the sytem needs to be fixed
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I have some stock in United Health, so at least I get some back.
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Whoor,got snow to plow,see y'all later
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Not going anywhere. I'm only 58 - just some bumps in the road brought upon by a bad diet and probably heredity (don't know - I'm adopted). But thank you. And yes, we could use members for sure.
I'm supposed to get my blockages in my legs fixed, starting with the right leg, on Tuesday.
I got a call from the doctor's group (same group who did my hear on 12/10) yesterday evening and they tell me they are out of my insurance network as of 01/01/2025.
WTF?
Do vascular surgeons grow on trees?
Wonder what the breakdown was there. Would assume either BCBS asked for lower prices, or they decided what BCBS paid wasn’t enough. Who knows which?
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Health insurance is a muddled mess of rules, regulations, and profit-driven behavior. Make no mistake about it, the insurer's coverage decisions are driven by their bottom line, not your health outcomes. That doesn't make them bad people, it makes them corporations with a fiduciary duty to their shareholders, not their subscribers.
All insurance, including health insurance, is about pooling risk, so we're all paying for each other's health care one way or another. The only real question is what's the best way to deal with pooling risk when it comes to health care. And if the answer to that were easy, we would have done it already. One thing that many people think would make it easier would be to remove the profit incentive, but there are a lot of people who's careers depend on that. So that's not easy, either. And, there is a reasonable argument to be made that the profit incentive has driven a lot of the advances in modern medicine, which--generally--have been positive for society. So, again, it's not an easy nut to crack.
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Health insurance is a muddled mess of rules, regulations, and profit-driven behavior. Make no mistake about it, the insurer's coverage decisions are driven by their bottom line, not your health outcomes. That doesn't make them bad people, it makes them corporations with a fiduciary duty to their shareholders, not their subscribers.
Greedy and therefore Evil
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Well, I suppose greed is one of those seven deadly sins, or some such thing. But it's also a human characteristic. So maybe we need to revisit the Lord of the Flies and whether Golding is correct that humans are inherently evil?
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When money is held above well-being, it's evil. It's a broken, garbage system. We all know this.
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As noted, many are "for profit companies", so yes, they value profit, it's inherent. There are some nonprofit insurers like Kaiser Permanente and most of BC/BS, but they aren't materially different in costs and coverage. There are small coops that are nonprofit also. I think the primary issue is what they cover, and don't, which is spelled out in obscure detail in the policies, which are subject to interpretation.
Greed is what drives our economy, it's the basic underlying motive force.
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When money is held above well-being, it's evil. It's a broken, garbage system. We all know this.
I don't' think this is 100% true. Because even in countries with socialist medical systems, money is still a major driving force behind the quality of healthcare. I often hear that in other countries like Canada and UK you have to wait months to see the Dr., even when you have life threatening conditions like cancer. When you have unlimited needs, and limited resources you have to make choices. You think capitalism is just so evil, but you overlook the positive aspects. The US healthcare system works very well for a lot of people, there are millions of people who are completely satisfied by it.
If United Healthcare was so evil, I would kind of think that a lot of people would choose a different provider, and they would either have to make changes, or go out of business.
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It's not just the health insurance companies, it's also the medical facilities and community. Let's be real. Our family welcomed another child into the family and when we looked at the insurance bill, we simply laughed. To get admitted to the hospital, we had to spend 20 minutes in a "triage" room because the birthing rooms were all full and they needed to determine if she was actually in labor. 20 minutes.. the bill broken down for that specific room was over $2,000.. 2 Colace pills.. $16.. 1 Ibuprofen.. $8..
So it made us curious, how much was the weekly visits to the OB..$650 a visit and the last few weeks were a matter of the doctor coming into the office, listening for a heartbeat asking if things were fine and walking out. And we really like this OB and very professional, but $650 for 10 minutes of her time. It's not just insurance. The entire system has absurdly priced.
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doctors, nurses, and hospital admin like to get paid
you know, a living wage
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My daughter has been in Vancouver, BC for 2+ years now and is still waiting to get assigned to a primary care doctor.
One reason hospitals charge ridiculous amounts for an Aspirin is that a lot of folks don't pay their bills, or pay only part, so they skin those who can pay, and will pay.
The insurance companies moderate this with their "plans".
I think we could do with more nurse practitioners out there for PCP stuff.
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doctors, nurses, and hospital admin like to get paid
you know, a living wage
My wife is an OR nurse and her circle is some pretty talented doctors and nurses at one of the best hospitals in the country. you'd be surprised that many of them are paid quite a bit less than you would guess/expect. But don't worry, the millions upon millions to buy and make a bunch of shiny new facilities and take over most of the East side of Cleveland is definitely about making sure they have good wages.
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Breaking it down in simple terms the problem with our health system is the cost is not realized by the end user. Most people have insurance at least partially paid by their employer. Most of the actual costs are absorbed by the insurance company.
When the end user doesn't pay the actual cost of an item, there is a natural greater demand for the item than would be if the realized the cost. If there is a greater demand for the item, prices rise. But again the end user doesn't realize this, so there is still an over demand for the item. Which ultimately leads to greater prices and/or shortage of supply.
It really is just a simple supply and demand curves being manipulated by outside forces. In this case the buyer not bearing the full cost of the product. Basic economics.
Yes I realize this is an over simplification, but it explains much of the issues with health cost in the US and the shortages of available health care in the countries with socialistic health care systems.
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Nearly half of US health care expenses are paid for by our government. And of course a lot of it occurs near end of life, or in old age.
I also have nearly no influence over a health care provider beyond my PCP. I can't compare, and don't have any incentive, to find say an MRI provider that is cheaper.
I try and stay "in network" and something happens.
For us, our health insurance seems to work quite well at a low cost to us, but it is subsidized by my former employer, and my uncle.
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Breaking it down in simple terms the problem with our health system is the cost is not realized by the end user. Most people have insurance at least partially paid by their employer. Most of the actual costs are absorbed by the insurance company.
When the end user doesn't pay the actual cost of an item, there is a natural greater demand for the item than would be if the realized the cost. If there is a greater demand for the item, prices rise. But again the end user doesn't realize this, so there is still an over demand for the item. Which ultimately leads to greater prices and/or shortage of supply.
It really is just a simple supply and demand curves being manipulated by outside forces. In this case the buyer not bearing the full cost of the product. Basic economics.
Yes I realize this is an over simplification, but it explains much of the issues with health cost in the US and the shortages of available health care in the countries with socialistic health care systems.
This is true to a point, but it ignores that buying health care isn't like buying a consumer product. First, it isn't a luxury/want item, it is generally a need item. Second, the complexity of what kind of care one needs is nearly impossible for a layperson to understand well enough--and with enough time--to appropriately shop it around. The ibuprofin is a little microcosm. Sure, hospitals mark some things up because some of their patients don't pay, but they also have to pay employees to stock and deliver that ibuprofin. Much like buying food at a restaurant, you aren't really paying for the item, you are paying for the service. Additionally, if you knew you needed the ibuprofin before you went in, you could just bring it yourself, but getting back to the complexity of the product that is offered, it is often not obvious to the consumer--before they go in for treatment--what kind of medications they will need. Maybe we should all go to the doctor's office with a bottle of acetaminophen and a bottle of ibuprofin because they are both so common, but how many of us actually keep those bottles with our wallets and keys, so we have them with us at all times?
So the insurance companies (and Medicare/Medicaid) are like personal valets--here is a network of people we trust to provide the service that you need.
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The other problem is that the costs of significant care are extreme. Childbirth is a good example, but so are cancer care and heart surgery. These are astronomically expensive items. If the option is save or borrow to pay for them, not knowing when or how they will arise, that will create an economic calamity, as we have young families making the decision to simply skip medical care for childbirth and take their chances with all that entails, and many people for whom these economic costs are unavoidable will take the care, go into debt, and default (already a significant problem). We can talk about personal responsibility until we are blue in the face, but that won't make people save the amount of money they will need for these events. Their defaults would nut just impact them, but also the people they are in debt to (which will almost certainly include the medical care providers). The ethics of medical care are such that--unlike an attorney, for instance, who can demand a retainer before starting work--the idea of refusing acute care to someone who can't pay right away would be a very difficult one to stomach.
As a result, medical care virtually demands a pooled risk payment system. There are ways to make the costs more meaningful to the consumer, but in the abstract, insurance, whether private or public, is a must.
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he ibuprofin is a little microcosm. Sure, hospitals mark some things up because some of their patients don't pay, but they also have to pay employees to stock and deliver that ibuprofin. Much like buying food at a restaurant, you aren't really paying for the item, you are paying for the service. Additionally, if you knew you needed the ibuprofin before you went in, you could just bring it yourself, but getting back to the complexity of the product that is offered, it is often not obvious to the consumer--before they go in for treatment--what kind of medications they will need.
That's actually not correct. We had a bottle of ibuprofen with us and forbidden from taking it saying it had to come directly from the hospital itself, which is/was BS. They're going to give the old reasoning that they need to ensure they can verify what it is under their care, but when you're wife is in the medical field, knows exactly what it is, how could something that basic fall under that. So the 4 Ibuprofen for $32 is for the service and stocking of it, instead of being able to take our own for 5 cents? or not being prepared? It's a blatant money grab and they're give garbage legal reasoning for the money grab. If the "service" isn't needed, overcharging for the same exact thing has no justification that would sit well with me.
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If I needed say an MRI, nonemergency, and I had skin in the game, I'd probably call around to get the best price (like at Guido's MRI and Tatoo Parlor place). Then there would be price competition. MRIs vary wildly in cost from place to place.
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easier for me to simply despise insurance companies
and note that a high percentage of doctors drive Mercedes
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I had a cousin who passed away recently. Not sure if it's totally relevant, but she was a drug abuser. Mostly pills, but meth too and all of that mess. She suffered from a brain hemorrhage and died. They flew her by life flight to the hospital in Houston, where she was in intensive care for 3-5 days on life support (brain dead). Her husband, my cousin, has a very average job, no health insurance. I only mention the drug abuse part because they have always been broke, barely pay the bills, she only worked off/on here and there through the years. Not a bad person, just one of those deals she could never shake. Their personal lives have always pretty much been a mess, both financially and relationships.
Anyways, I'm willing to bet he pays $0 for all the care she received up until her death. I mean, the bills are probably well into the 6 figure range at least, possibly $300-500,000 dollars. I have no idea. So why pay anything when you could never even make a dent? I wouldn't. So the money comes from people like you and I, who do have good insurance, just so the hospital can keep the doors open. This is the main reason why I favor some kind of bare-minimum medical insurance safety net, because we're already paying for it one way or another.
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This is the main reason why I favor some kind of bare-minimum medical insurance safety net, because we're already paying for it one way or another.
You don't have Medicaid expansion in Texas. Medicaid expansion keeps Iowa rural hospitals viable.
We have a thriving hospital in my county seat town of 5,000 which helps not just the least amongst us, but the rest of us who need local care, as well. We would not have the medical providers we have and local medical infrastructure without the support of Medicaid expansion.
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BC/BS made a mistake, so I had my procedure yesterday after all.
It didn't work, so I go back Friday to try again.
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It's not just the health insurance companies, it's also the medical facilities and community. Let's be real. Our family welcomed another child into the family and when we looked at the insurance bill, we simply laughed. To get admitted to the hospital, we had to spend 20 minutes in a "triage" room because the birthing rooms were all full and they needed to determine if she was actually in labor. 20 minutes.. the bill broken down for that specific room was over $2,000.. 2 Colace pills.. $16.. 1 Ibuprofen.. $8..
So it made us curious, how much was the weekly visits to the OB..$650 a visit and the last few weeks were a matter of the doctor coming into the office, listening for a heartbeat asking if things were fine and walking out. And we really like this OB and very professional, but $650 for 10 minutes of her time. It's not just insurance. The entire system has absurdly priced.
I get your frustration with this as I had the same realization years back when my wife was pregnant with one of our kids. I actually brought this up with the doctor and was suprised that he actually was willing to discuss it.
Now, my youngest child is 25 years old so this converstation happened some time ago, but at that time, he stated that one of his many expenses was Malpractice insurance. At that time he was paying over $100,000 per year in Malpractice insurance without ever having submitted a claim. I don't remember what the cost of an office visit was at the time, but it was not anywhere close to $650, probably more like $100-$200. So how many office visits would he have to take to simply pay that bill? Never mind the cost of the office itself, the medical equipment that he had to maintain, the staff salaries and so on.
I am not trying to defend the doctors nor the insurance industry. However, there is one HUGE hidden cost that most people don't consider when thinking about the costs in healthcare and that is the Legal community that is more than willing to sue doctors for any perceived injustice. A mom smokes and drinks throughout her pregnancy and the child is born with issues and the first thing she does and call a lawyer and sue the doctor. I know that sounds extreme, but things like this happen more than you would think.
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Breaking it down in simple terms the problem with our health system is the cost is not realized by the end user. Most people have insurance at least partially paid by their employer. Most of the actual costs are absorbed by the insurance company.
When the end user doesn't pay the actual cost of an item, there is a natural greater demand for the item than would be if the realized the cost. If there is a greater demand for the item, prices rise. But again the end user doesn't realize this, so there is still an over demand for the item. Which ultimately leads to greater prices and/or shortage of supply.
It really is just a simple supply and demand curves being manipulated by outside forces. In this case the buyer not bearing the full cost of the product. Basic economics.
Yes I realize this is an over simplification, but it explains much of the issues with health cost in the US and the shortages of available health care in the countries with socialistic health care systems.
Exactly. Add in to that the legal system that attempts to take their half out of the middle and you can quickly see how costs continue to rise.
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paying over $100,000 per year in Malpractice insurance without ever having submitted a claim.
Hey, those insurance folks need a living wage too
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Nearly half of US health care expenses are paid for by our government. And of course a lot of it occurs near end of life, or in old age.
I also have nearly no influence over a health care provider beyond my PCP. I can't compare, and don't have any incentive, to find say an MRI provider that is cheaper.
I try and stay "in network" and something happens.
For us, our health insurance seems to work quite well at a low cost to us, but it is subsidized by my former employer, and my uncle.
Actually, you can in some cases.
About 12 years ago I had an extended hospital stay for multiple organ failure when included my kidneys. I was on dialysis for about 3 months and afterwards, had to see the kidney doctor monthly for about a year. Each doctor visit required bloodwork to be done so that he could monitor that state of my kidneys.
To do the bloodwork, I would go to our local hospital where they would take me into a room, draw my blood and have it tested returning the results to my kidney doctor.
This was fine until I started getting the bill for the bloodwork. The hospital was charging almost $900 for this service. I went into the hospital and spoke with someone there about my bill. They were admitting me to the hospital in order to draw my blood. I stated that all I did was go into a room, let them take my blood and then leave, there was no stay. They said that was their process and I was reasposible for paying it.
Having a friend in the medical community, I was complaining about this and they told me that there was a much cheaper alternative. The hospital is not the entity that actually tests the blood, they just draw it. There is another company (LabCorp) that comes in daily, picks up the blood samples and sends them out for testing and then sends the test results to my doctor. It turns out that they have an outpatient facility near me were you can go in and they will do that actual draws (and it was almost right across from my kidney doctors main office). All I had to do was to tell my doctor to send the order for bloodwork to them instead of the hospital.
So that is exactly what I did for the next round of testing. This time, the bill was only $90. I suspect that there are many services outside of the normal process if you simply ask about it.
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You don't have Medicaid expansion in Texas. Medicaid expansion keeps Iowa rural hospitals viable.
We have a thriving hospital in my county seat town of 5,000 which helps not just the least amongst us, but the rest of us who need local care, as well. We would not have the medical providers we have and local medical infrastructure without the support of Medicaid expansion.
Well, I don't know anything about rural Hospitals in either Texas or Iowa, but we have plenty of rural hospitals here. There are two closest to me, one in a little town about 10 miles away that is truly rural. They have their own tax district, and they are in the final stages of building a brand new facility. The other one is also about 10 miles away, in a town of about 30,000, heavily supported by local industry and the like. It's a moderately large facility with a 4 story building and lots of auxiliary facilities for things like cancer, imaging, etc.
I don't know why Texas doesn't have Medicaid expansion, but I'd wager to guess that the differences in Texas and Iowa are vast. Houston is well known all over the world for it's medical center, I'm told there is no better place in the entire world for certain types of medical care and in fact almost every time I'm up there I meet people from all over the country and all over the world who come to Houston for some kind of treatment.
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BC/BS made a mistake, so I had my procedure yesterday after all.
It didn't work, so I go back Friday to try again.
Good Luck!
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BC/BS made a mistake, so I had my procedure yesterday after all.
It didn't work, so I go back Friday to try again.
Argh. Good luck my friend!
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I get your frustration with this as I had the same realization years back when my wife was pregnant with one of our kids. I actually brought this up with the doctor and was suprised that he actually was willing to discuss it.
Now, my youngest child is 25 years old so this converstation happened some time ago, but at that time, he stated that one of his many expenses was Malpractice insurance. At that time he was paying over $100,000 per year in Malpractice insurance without ever having submitted a claim. I don't remember what the cost of an office visit was at the time, but it was not anywhere close to $650, probably more like $100-$200. So how many office visits would he have to take to simply pay that bill? Never mind the cost of the office itself, the medical equipment that he had to maintain, the staff salaries and so on.
I am not trying to defend the doctors nor the insurance industry. However, there is one HUGE hidden cost that most people don't consider when thinking about the costs in healthcare and that is the Legal community that is more than willing to sue doctors for any perceived injustice. A mom smokes and drinks throughout her pregnancy and the child is born with issues and the first thing she does and call a lawyer and sue the doctor. I know that sounds extreme, but things like this happen more than you would think.
I appreciate the perspective and I do get your point. The weird part is that I don't blame the doctor in our circumstance, especially because she isn't dictating the price. I just dislike the system and the overall "non-profit" parent company in the Cleveland Clinic.. And maybe it's not just the clinic but the overall system and I'll be the first to say I don't know it well enough to know where the blame falls or remotely have any idea how to improve it. We certainly benefit from it in my household since she falls under the hospital insurance and it covers everything. Seriously everything. Our first child was 8 years ago under my insurance and it was over 14k out of pocket. Every child since that has been $50-$150 total in co-pays. Total! My brain surgery billed out at over $400,000 and my out of pocket with her insurance was $350 and I had access to one of the best brain surgeons on the planet.. so there's plenty i need to be grateful or and our family is massively blessed with the coverage we have so it's not really my issue to fight in life, but i have so many people in my life that are crushed by medical costs and insurance outside our family that it's tough to see. Again, my knowledge on this topic is thin and I'm sure there's far more that's broken than $8 Ibuprofen and $650 10 minute visits, but it was just a red flag that lots must be broken if this is the cost breakdown. If we were on my former insurance and we had co-insurance, it would have financially bent us over the last few years.
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BC/BS made a mistake, so I had my procedure yesterday after all.
It didn't work, so I go back Friday to try again.
Keep us posted and good luck!
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BC/BS made a mistake, so I had my procedure yesterday after all.
It didn't work, so I go back Friday to try again.
So you COULD keep your doctor!
(That’s great news! Though it is annoying that you had to go through the uncertainty)
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I appreciate the perspective and I do get your point. The weird part is that I don't blame the doctor in our circumstance, especially because she isn't dictating the price. I just dislike the system and the overall "non-profit" parent company in the Cleveland Clinic.. And maybe it's not just the clinic but the overall system and I'll be the first to say I don't know it well enough to know where the blame falls or remotely have any idea how to improve it. We certainly benefit from it in my household since she falls under the hospital insurance and it covers everything. Seriously everything. Our first child was 8 years ago under my insurance and it was over 14k out of pocket. Every child since that has been $50-$150 total in co-pays. Total! My brain surgery billed out at over $400,000 and my out of pocket with her insurance was $350 and I had access to one of the best brain surgeons on the planet.. so there's plenty i need to be grateful or and our family is massively blessed with the coverage we have so it's not really my issue to fight in life, but i have so many people in my life that are crushed by medical costs and insurance outside our family that it's tough to see. Again, my knowledge on this topic is thin and I'm sure there's far more that's broken than $8 Ibuprofen and $650 10 minute visits, but it was just a red flag that lots must be broken if this is the cost breakdown. If we were on my former insurance and we had co-insurance, it would have financially bent us over the last few years.
so, when given the choice between being financially ruined or simply not paying…what really happens if you just don’t pay. Like millions of people have to do ?
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so, when given the choice between being financially ruined or simply not paying…what really happens if you just don’t pay. Like millions of people have to do ?
Well, as a homeowner, when the debt is large enough and ends up with a collection company, it can lead to a lien on the property and a debt that could be required to pay. A lot of people end up in chapter 13 bankruptcy from not paying the debt if they have something that could be legally gone after.
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Ah, I for some reason thought medical debt was treated differently than other debt. Plus, I kinda thought that even though they *could* take drastic measures, they usually would not.
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BC/BS made a mistake, so I had my procedure yesterday after all.
It didn't work, so I go back Friday to try again.
Gimme their address i still have some left over manhole covers,Best wishes.
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Not going back Friday now. Pumping the breaks for a bit, on the advice of my cardiologist.
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I appreciate the perspective and I do get your point. The weird part is that I don't blame the doctor in our circumstance, especially because she isn't dictating the price. I just dislike the system and the overall "non-profit" parent company in the Cleveland Clinic.. And maybe it's not just the clinic but the overall system and I'll be the first to say I don't know it well enough to know where the blame falls or remotely have any idea how to improve it. We certainly benefit from it in my household since she falls under the hospital insurance and it covers everything. Seriously everything. Our first child was 8 years ago under my insurance and it was over 14k out of pocket. Every child since that has been $50-$150 total in co-pays. Total! My brain surgery billed out at over $400,000 and my out of pocket with her insurance was $350 and I had access to one of the best brain surgeons on the planet.. so there's plenty i need to be grateful or and our family is massively blessed with the coverage we have so it's not really my issue to fight in life, but i have so many people in my life that are crushed by medical costs and insurance outside our family that it's tough to see. Again, my knowledge on this topic is thin and I'm sure there's far more that's broken than $8 Ibuprofen and $650 10 minute visits, but it was just a red flag that lots must be broken if this is the cost breakdown. If we were on my former insurance and we had co-insurance, it would have financially bent us over the last few years.
I understand where you are coming from. Seeing things like $8 for Ibuprofen and $650 for a 10 min visit will alarm a lot of people, myself included. And I've had my fair share of medical issues over the past few years. I spent 3 months in the hospital in 2012-2013 from getting the flu. My total bill came in north of $500,000.
But I do think there are things that could be done if people band together and attempt to make changes to the health care delivery system in this country. Perhaps incentize people to shop around for low cost providers for medical procedures such as MRI's or in my previous example, getting blood tests. Maybe a system were the insurance company will pay the full cost of the service if you do the leg work and get a lower cost. Demand that healthcare providers provide their costs up front so that people can shop around for lower cost alternatives.
But the biggest thing that could help in my opinion would be Tort reform. Currently, if someone files a lawsuit, the defendent needs to lawyer up and put on a defense if they wish to fight the suit. Even if the defendent wins, they are still out the money spent on their defense. If we went to a system were the loser pays, perhaps many lawsuits could be averted.
I know that sounds pretty simplistic and there would have to be more thought put into than that, but I think you get my point. Many companies will simply pay the plaintive just to avoid the hassle if the amount they are demanding is below a certain threshold. But it still adds thoses costs to their cost of doing business which is ultimately passed onto the consumer.
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That is a little simplistic regarding tort reform. First, it isn't the doctor that lawyers up, it's the insurance company that provides the malpractice insurance. Now, does the doctor have to pay really high malpractice insurance rates? Probably. So there is that. But insurers have probably the most financial power of any repeat player in the court system. They buy their lawyers' services at bundled, cheap rates, and they spread their risk over all of their insureds, not just one or two.
Tort reform isn't a terrible idea, but at the same time, the AMA should be forced to police itself better. The numbers regarding who is sued for malpractice, and who is found liable for malpractice suggest that there are repeat offenders who--not unlike end of life care skewing health costs--skew the risk/costs for the malpractice insurance market.
The other question that our legal system grapples with is how to address the wrongs? In many developed economies, the government is responsible for what we think of as civil litigation, i.e., the government has attorneys who pursue tort claims on behalf of victims. That means the victims lose control, and it means big government beauracracy.
There are unquestionably abuses in the system, but they are on both sides--unfairness where some people get way more money than they should have for something that may not have even been malpractice, and truly injured people who get nothing because they can't stand up to the bohemoth insurers who defend malpractice actions.
As usual, it's complicated. :-)
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Not going back Friday now. Pumping the breaks for a bit, on the advice of my cardiologist.
Got it done yesterday.
Both legs are blockage free. My cardiologist was right. He was convinced this guy could do it and it was well worth the drive to Bradenton.
Gino J. Sedillo, MD, FACC - Cardiovascular Solutions Institute (https://www.cardiovascularsolutionsinstitute.com/meet-the-team/gino-j-sedillo-md-facc/)
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Great news badge!
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good for you
thanks for the update