Everyone knows Sanders had the best single season ever. But, if you wanted to, you could say his career numbers are lacking. He rushed for fewer career yards than Ricky Williams. No, not that Ricky Williams, the other one, from Texas Tech. A near contemporary of the real Ricky Williams.John Burkett, Livan Hernandez and 207 other guys have more wins than Sandy Koufax.
So there's that.
To prove I'm not a total Purdue homer, I actually voted for Calvin Johnson over Taylor Stubblefield. Stubblefield was a great college player; always managed to find and sit in holes in the zone and as a result had become the NCAA career receptions leader by the time he left the school.Well, considering your pro-Brees argument was that he was surrounded by bums, it's hard to argue one of those bums belongs a slot above guys like Desmond, Megatron or Barry Sanders, let alone the others.
But I've never seen someone so amazingly dominant that he could make a QB like Reggie Ball look good. Calvin Johnson was a man amongst boys every time he stepped on a college football field [and then you could pretty well claim the same in the NFL--he was that good].
Well, considering your pro-Brees argument was that he was surrounded by bums, it's hard to argue one of those bums belongs a slot above guys like Desmond, Megatron or Barry Sanders, let alone the others.Well, I'm not saying I actually would have voted Stubblefield over the others. If I had given him a vote, it would purely have been a homer vote, not objective in any way. I was actually surprised he was included on this list at all. He was a short, slow, slot receiver that succeeded well beyond what anyone would have suggested, but I don't think he was ever in the running here. He was an amazing possession receiver, where possession receiver is the guy who isn't particularly notable for anything he does except somehow always being open just past the sticks on 3rd down.
Biakabatuka had perhaps the most impressive single game by a RB I've ever seen in their '95 upset of Ohio State.I went back and watched highlights of that game a few weeks ago - I hadn't remembered he came into the game with a leg injury. His 300-yard day should be remembered more for the O-Line - he had all the room in the world to work with.
I went back and watched highlights of that game a few weeks ago - I hadn't remembered he came into the game with a leg injury. His 300-yard day should be remembered more for the O-Line - he had all the room in the world to work with.I've posted that on these boards before, that the holes, particularly on the first couple drives were like nothing I've ever seen. Our seats were high in the end zone, perfect for watching those things develop.
I think these 'offensive genius' coaches don't worry about the talent of their WRs too much. They're so confident that if they can get their QB to do what they want, anyone could be running the routes and the system would work. Spurrier was kind of like that. Before Hilliard and Anthony, Florida's best receivers in Spurrier's first 4 years were a TE, a 5'8" guy, and a white kid that probably ran a 4.8 forty.
I sure wish either Brees or Orton had a Calvin Johnson to throw the ball to, though... For all that could be said about "basketball on grass" being a pass-happy offense, Tiller never really seemed to bring in the class of WR talent that you thought would be expected given that his system showcased the WRs so much.
I think these 'offensive genius' coaches don't worry about the talent of their WRs too much. They're so confident that if they can get their QB to do what they want, anyone could be running the routes and the system would work. Spurrier was kind of like that. Before Hilliard and Anthony, Florida's best receivers in Spurrier's first 4 years were a TE, a 5'8" guy, and a white kid that probably ran a 4.8 forty.I agree that is true, but at the same time, you put Calvin Johnson on a Tiller- or Spurrier-coached team, and I'll bet the numbers get even better.
The better the passing system, the less talented the working parts are required to be.
The clear trend today with RBs is to limit them to around 20 carries per game, with a few exceptions. With 20 touches and 7 ypg, well, you do the math, a great game but not beyond the pale.Barry did have 35 carries against a pretty good Nebraska defense that season, but averaged 5.4
The "Pale" interesting, perhaps, is the area around Dublin, Ireland.
Is it more impressive to have 20 carries and 7 ypc or 35 carries and 4 ypc? It depends.
What Sanders did in the League is tough to ignore. He did not exactly have an all Pro line up there.
Barry did have 35 carries against a pretty good Nebraska defense that season, but averaged 5.4Double his rushing attempts? You increase his carries by that much, he probably would have been just about the worst back in the Big Ten, if not the nation. Temple wouldn't even have him at that point.
I'd guess most games he had fewer carries and more yards.
Causes me to wonder how Penn State would have finished last season if Saquon Barkley would have doubled his rushing attempts from 16 per game to 32?
Yeah, but the trend today is to utilize RBs much less than back then. Herschel averaged 35 carries per game in 1981.I understand today's trend. I'm not saying it's wrong.
That would not happen today except in rare circumstance.
Double his rushing attempts? You increase his carries by that much, he probably would have been just about the worst back in the Big Ten, if not the nation. Temple wouldn't even have him at that point.you don't believe in OrangeAfro's silly opinion that any RB's average will go down as number of carries goes up?
you don't believe in OrangeAfro's silly opinion that any RB's average will go down as number of carries goes up?I think if you have some fluky high or low ypc on a very small number of carries, then obviously over time it will tend to trend towards the middle. But given a large enough sample size, I would think you'd continue to produce at that level.
Statistically, the "best duo of running backs" in terms of career yardage just graduated and were drafted.Lol.
Few end up in the HoF. I think Sony Michel will do pretty well. Chubb could with a good OL, but ...Michel's knee is bone on bone. He won't last long in the NFL most likely. Pats will get a few big years out of him and then he'll probably get cut a year or two early because that's what Belichik does.
It's a surprising stat for some that they put up so much yardage in college together.
you don't believe in OrangeAfro's silly opinion that any RB's average will go down as number of carries goes up?If my opinion is silly, then so is the entire field of statistics and probability.
the pony express?
The better method would simply see who was the best/most productive backup RB ever, and go with that. Some off the top of my head:
So, who was the best backup running back in CFB history?Barry Sanders backing up Thurman Thomas
I wouldn't rate the backup by what he'd eventually become, but by his performance in the given season. Barry Sanders had 5.7 yards per carry as a backup. Not special.probably had too many carries
Your mom had too many carries....perhaps she was a Mike Rozier fan.
Yeah, it doesn't work for a bunch of different RB at different times. It's more of a trend thing. Cool, so it doesn't workI enjoy stirring the pot ;)
Also, blindly citing Nebraska RBs ypc numbers is silly as it ignores the ability of the QB's skill at the option. The '83 offense was an all-timer, not only because of Rozier's ability, but also because of Gill's and an actual passing threat with Fryar. Cool, so it's silly because of many variables in an offense
If you really want to look at what I've said and understand it, I stand by the posts I made about what made Melvin Gordon special. And that statistically, if a coach wants to eek out every last yard he can, his prominent ball-carriers' ypc averages should be nearly equal, as dictated by their number of carries. I understand your point about sharing carries via YPC, but coaches aren't interested in every last yard, they are interested in converting 3rd downs, scoring, and winning.
Ugly completion percentage.Perhaps not when you consider he was throwing to himself.
Perhaps not when you consider he was throwing to himself.So he was throwing to one of the all time greats and still <50%? Even worse.
As Grange never won a Heisman, perhaps he is over rated.yeah and if he played college football today or even in the 80's when Barry Sanders did he'd absolutely suck.
Ha.
In his 20-game college career, Grange ran for 3,362 yards, caught 14 passes for 253 yards, and completed 40 of 82 passes for 575 yards. Of his 31 touchdowns, 16 were from at least 20 yards, with nine from more than 50 yards.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Grange#cite_note-ESPN-11) He scored at least one touchdown in every game he played but one, a loss to Nebraska in his senior season. He earned All-America (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-America) recognition three consecutive years, and appeared on the cover of Time (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_(magazine)) on October 5, 1925.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Grange#cite_note-ESPN-11) His number 77 was retired by the University of Illinois.[note 2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Grange#cite_note-16)
If we extrapolate his numbers out to 50 games they look pretty decent. Was he a run away winner for #77, I forget?
yeah and if he played college football today or even in the 80's when Barry Sanders did he'd absolutely suck.Yes, but so would Tom Harmon, and you voted for him, so...
Whereas if the winner of this poll- Sanders- played back then he'd run for oh, 8,000 yards and 100 touchdowns a season.
Hall of Fame RB Curtis Martin made a great point about Barry Sanders. He said it doesn't matter what era- you put him in todays game or in 1920- he'd still be the best RB. Can't really say that about any other RB. His ability to stop and start and accelerate through his cuts is something we've never seen before or since. And despite his short stature at 5'8 he was built as powerfully as they come. His calf muscles, thighs and legs were like tree trunks. Many a defender got their arms ripped off trying to arm tackle him.
"A trend thing" DOES work, if it's a trend, or correlation, or tendency, just not all the time.Right. If you note that something happens 99 times out of 100, people will then dwell on the one time it doesn't hold true.
Few things in life have a correlation coefficient of 1.0. That does not mean regressions are of no value.
A roulette wheel that is seriously unbalanced and hits red 5 10% of the time is useful information to a bettor even though it doesn't happen very often. It's often enough, and then some.
This Barry Sanders worship is odd.Ah. I see what's going on. Gator fan who thinks Emmitt Smith is in the same universe as Barry Sanders. That always brings out the lulz.
Old-school coaches would boot Sanders off the field for not simply taking the hand-off and hitting the hole hard. They'd bitch and moan about his dancing around. Ricky Williams would dominate any era...so would Brown, Gordon, Simpson, Herschel, Emmitt, Payton, Bo, et al.
If you put Herschel or Campbell at tailback in the 20s, people would chastise you for lining up your nose guard in the backfield. But again, I don't think old-timey coaches would put up with the fact that Sanders (in his NFL career) had the most carries for no gain or a loss in history. It'd be the principle of the thing. Get to the hole ASAP and take your 3 yards and a cloud of dust, young man!
Sanders was incredible to me also.he is the most incredible player in any sport to watch probably ever. How many players in any sport have a top 50 highlight reel? Lol.
perhaps she was a Mike Rozier fan.I was staring at this chart and it occurred to me some of it is self fulfilling. If you’re gonna be high on the rushin list, your carries need to be high, and your YPC need to be high.
at the time of this list December of 1991
All-time rushing - Years - Yards - Att - Avg. TD
Mike Rozier 1981-83 4,780 668 7.16 49
Ken Clark 1987-89 3,037 494 6.15 29
I.M. Hipp 1977-79 2,814 495 5.68 21
Keith Jones 1984-87 2,488 398 6.25 32
Rick Berns 1976-78 2,449 440 5.56 28
Roger Craig 1979-82 2,446 407 6.01 26
Jeff Kinney 1969-71 2,244 545 4.11 29
Doug DuBose 1982-85 2,205 362 6.09 16
Bobby Reynolds 1950-52 2,196 378 5.80 24
Jarvis Redwine 1979-80 2,161 304 7.10 17
________________________________________
the back with the highest average had the most attempts - by far
the back with the fewest attempts had the 2nd highest average
Ah. I see what's going on. Gator fan who thinks Emmitt Smith is in the same universe as Barry Sanders. That always brings out the lulz.Wow. Breathe. You're debating no one.
You do realize that Barry Sanders rushed for 2,850 yards- averaged 7.8 YPC, and rushed for 42 touchdowns in 12 games, right? Most college players on good teams now are playing 13 or more games and they still can't come close to what he did in 12. Barry Sanders total yards from scrimmage in 1988- 3,471 yards. Total touchdowns? 44.
Barry Sanders never had the greatest OL of all-time in the NFL like Emmitt Smith. He never played with a Hall of Fame QB like Troy Aikman. Never played with a Hall of Fame WR like Michael Irvin. His OL was mediocre to terrible for the entire tenure of his NFL career. His QB's were absolute hot garbage his entire career. Rodney Peete, Bob Gagliano, Eric Hipple, Andre Ware, Eric Kramer, Dave Krieg, Scott Mitchell, Charlie Batch. Kinda sad when a 38 year old Dave Krieg who he only had for 1 year was probably the best QB he ever played with. These are the QB's directing his offense. Played with some pretty good receivers like Herman Moore and Brett Perriman, but neither of them were close to the level of impact player that Michael Irvin was.
You can say what you want about the most carries for no gains or a loss in NFL history- but he had to do a lot on his own just to make a 5 yard gain sometimes. And despite this- he still averaged over 5 yards per carry for his NFL career- Barry and only the great Jim Brown are the only backs in NFL history with over 1,000 carries to average 5+ YPC. He AVERAGED 1,526.9 rushing yards per season. His lowest rushing total was 1,100+ yards- a season in which he missed 5 games with a leg injury. He ran for 1,100+ in 10 straight NFL seasons. He won the NFL rushing crown 4 times. Could've very easily been 6 times if he stayed in games just to chase those records. Instead he'd take himself out of games at the end of the season if the Lions were up comfortably. And he wasn't running through mack truck sized holes in the pros like Emmitt Smith. And when he did get big holes he was gone for 40+. Holes that Emmitt had that he'd get 15 yards out of- when Barry had those kind of holes he was getting 40+ easy. They just honestly were not in the same universe. Barry Sanders ability as a runner was just not of this planet.
number of attempts and Average per rush were in bold to show there's no correlation between a high number of attempts and a low average per rushYou keep showing that you don't understand the point. Why not seek to understand?
for example, Rozier had the highest number of attempts by far, but also had the highest average
another example, Reynolds was on the low side for attempts, but had the lowest average
true, if you are tracking total yards, you either need a very high number of attempts or a very high average. Having both of course leads to the highest total.
your statement was that if backs like Rozier had more carries their average would eventually go downDo you believe his YPC would remain as high if he had 500 carries?
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[th]1982 (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/years/1982.html)[/th]
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number of attempts and Average per rush were in bold to show there's no correlation between a high number of attempts and a low average per rushAmong a set of backs who both have high YPC and high carries numbers at a school that doesn't overload its backs, yes, this is true. It's also true that a lot of Nebraska's highest ever YPC guys had low carries number and top carries guys didn't have robust YPC numbers.
for example, Rozier had the highest number of attempts by far, but also had the highest average
another example, Reynolds was on the low side for attempts, but had the lowest average
true, if you are tracking total yards, you either need a very high number of attempts or a very high average. Having both of course leads to the highest total.
On Mike Rozier:not just one reason, many reasons - Rozier's career
There is a reason he never had a 300-carry season.
not just one reason, many reasons - Rozier's careerLet's focus on your absurd comments.
1981 - Bates at fullback, Gill at QB
R. Craig att 173 yrd 1060 avg 6.1
M. Rozier att 151 yrd 943 avg 6.2
P. Bates att 94 yrd 555 avg 5.9
T. Gill att 76 yrd 263 avg 3.5
this shows 500 of the 661 total rushes
So, since Rozier had the better average, give him all 324 carries?
1982 - Wilkening fullback, Smith I-back, Gill QB, Fryer wingback
Rozier att 242 1689 avg 7.0
Craig att 119 586 avg 4.9
Smith att 56 569 avg 10.2
Gill att 101 497 avg 4.9
Wilkening att 80 413 avg 5.2
Fryar att 20 245 avg 12.3
So, Osborne was brilliant, most carries went to Rozier, better average than Craig. But, remember Craig was playing some fullback. Obviously, the 3rd string Smith playing in mop up duty when the defense had taken out starters should have had 300+ carries?
Let's focus on your absurd comments.oh, I'm certainly just being a horse's ass
1981 - both top backs' YPC were nearly even. This is ideal. I'm not sure why you decide to mouth off here, it makes it look like you genuinely don't understand, and not just being a horse's ass.
1982 - If you have a backup averaging 10+ YPC, why not give him more carries? The whole point of all of this is that I'm saying if you give him more carries, his YPC will decrease, because he's not a genuine 10 YPC-quality RB. No one is. But if he does, somehow, maintain his inflated average, why then those carries you're taking from Rozier are netting you more yards, and you have nothing to complain about anyway.
How is this still unclear???
Would folks agree that the jump from 10 carries to 20 would probably not have much impact on YPC?yes, from a basic level this seems logical.
The jump from 20 to 3- would start to have impact, and to 40 or more would have impact on nearly every back in history?
my point is simpleBut a strong trend is not undone by 1 or 2 exceptions. Regression to the mean as volume increases is a statistically valid thing. Yes, there are tons of variables, but even still, it's valid.
JUST adding a few more carries per game or even doubling the carries doesn't assure the average per rush will go down. It's not a mathematical certainty.
there are many variables