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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Cincydawg on July 06, 2024, 11:06:01 AM

Title: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 06, 2024, 11:06:01 AM
Hmmm.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 06, 2024, 11:22:24 AM
not bad overall

Inflation could be less - interest rates could be cut
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 06, 2024, 11:27:40 AM
Fortune 100 company layoffs beginning in earnest and will continue steadily over the next 3-4 years.  We'll see how the economy absorbs that but it's going to be very ugly for a lot of people, for a while.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 06, 2024, 11:37:50 AM
unemployment rate 4.1%

2.8% in Iowa
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 06, 2024, 11:40:17 AM
unemployment rate 4.1%

2.8% in Iowait
unemployment rate 4.1%

2.8% in Iowa

It's only just begun.  Not sure how many Fortune100 companies are headquartered in Iowa, y'all are probably alright.  NY, California, Texas... gonna be a bloodbath for a while. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 06, 2024, 02:01:14 PM
Don't see it slowing up around here - the dirt is flying, lots of iron on the job sites.

But DR and Lennar have the money to play the long game, as does Taylor Morrison. Those are the most active right now in these parts.

Florida Housing Crisis Hits D.R. Horton & Lennar | Edmond Thorne | NewsBreak Original (https://original.newsbreak.com/@edmond-thorne-1883083/3517207712679-florida-housing-crisis-hits-d-r-horton-lennar?_f=app_share&pd=00g48xrH&lang=en_US&send_time=1720215592&trans_data={)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Mdot21 on July 06, 2024, 02:33:04 PM
Don't see it slowing up around here - the dirt is flying, lots of iron on the job sites.

But DR and Lennar have the money to play the long game, as does Taylor Morrison. Those are the most active right now in these parts.

Florida Housing Crisis Hits D.R. Horton & Lennar | Edmond Thorne | NewsBreak Original (https://original.newsbreak.com/@edmond-thorne-1883083/3517207712679-florida-housing-crisis-hits-d-r-horton-lennar?_f=app_share&pd=00g48xrH&lang=en_US&send_time=1720215592&trans_data={)
we have some deals with DR/Lennar. they are STARVING for fully entitled shovel ready deals or as close to possible and they will pay through the nose for it. they'd rather pay more a fully entitled & developed site or for a fully entitled project and hire someone to do the development than go through the headache of land banking, entitling, and developing because while it's true DR/Lennar are publicly traded fortune 500 companies with the ability to raise more money than god to scoop up raw land they typically do not land bank- they don't want huge liabilities on their balance sheets- they are publicly traded companies- and all they care about is: share price. they aren't really home builders they are finance companies involved in building single/multi-family homes. and they build straight up garbage product- and in some of their communities down this way they charge just under $1 million for a 2,500 sq ft complete piece of cookie cutter sh*t that probably cost them $60-80/sq ft to build and where they've cut every corner and greased the city/township/county to get inspections passed that no other builder could get passed. And it's because: they paid through the nose for the land. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 06, 2024, 04:18:06 PM
Fortune 100 company layoffs beginning in earnest and will continue steadily over the next 3-4 years.  We'll see how the economy absorbs that but it's going to be very ugly for a lot of people, for a while.
Where I worked, they didn't do layoffs, ever.  They did "early retirement", which I got.  I see the layoff news mostly concentrated in Tech.  Aside from layoffs, another factor is when companies stop hiring newbies.


Microsoft, Meta, Amazon, and other tech giants are cutting back on headcount—but their spending on hardware and real estate keeps soaring | Fortune (https://fortune.com/2024/05/19/microsoft-meta-amazon-tech-layoffs-headcount-talent-hiring-research-development-capex/)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 06, 2024, 06:17:03 PM
Where I worked, they didn't do layoffs, ever.  They did "early retirement", which I got.  I see the layoff news mostly concentrated in Tech.  Aside from layoffs, another factor is when companies stop hiring newbies.


Microsoft, Meta, Amazon, and other tech giants are cutting back on headcount—but their spending on hardware and real estate keeps soaring | Fortune (https://fortune.com/2024/05/19/microsoft-meta-amazon-tech-layoffs-headcount-talent-hiring-research-development-capex/)
I'd volunteer for early retirement today, lol.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 06, 2024, 06:18:12 PM
As long as no one votes for the top or bottom option, the poll is useful.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 07, 2024, 08:04:37 AM
we have some deals with DR/Lennar. they are STARVING for fully entitled shovel ready deals or as close to possible and they will pay through the nose for it. they'd rather pay more a fully entitled & developed site or for a fully entitled project and hire someone to do the development than go through the headache of land banking, entitling, and developing because while it's true DR/Lennar are publicly traded fortune 500 companies with the ability to raise more money than god to scoop up raw land they typically do not land bank- they don't want huge liabilities on their balance sheets- they are publicly traded companies- and all they care about is: share price. they aren't really home builders they are finance companies involved in building single/multi-family homes. and they build straight up garbage product- and in some of their communities down this way they charge just under $1 million for a 2,500 sq ft complete piece of cookie cutter sh*t that probably cost them $60-80/sq ft to build and where they've cut every corner and greased the city/township/county to get inspections passed that no other builder could get passed. And it's because: they paid through the nose for the land.
We alone have 7 land development projects going right now with Lennar and DR. They'll go through entitlement and move dirt if they have to.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 07, 2024, 08:36:38 AM
I'd volunteer for early retirement today, lol.
Of course, with "early retirement", one needs a pretty decent nest egg to survive for a while.  It's a tough calculation often as not, I suggest enlisting a competent financial advisor.  You come out with no SS of course, and no health insurance or Medicare.  

In my case, I did get "retiree health insurance" that became much cheaper once I was on Medicare.  That helped.  I was 58.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 07, 2024, 10:44:42 AM
My wife retired at 58 because she was bored - two days before the world shut down. I wish she had not. 

Everyone in that company now "works" from home. The corporate office is no longer - it's gone and sold.

Baxter Healthcare is a mere shadow of its former self.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 07, 2024, 10:49:43 AM
I was bored and depressed.  Each day driving in was awful.  I had no real job, was doing nothing remotely useful to anyone, and had no outs.  And they replaced me with TWO people, no kidding, promoted one of them to my level.  I was all astonishment, but my "boss" was interested in building an empire, one that did nothing of value.

It was all in the budget each year so nobody cared.

I did have a rather entertaining exit interview.  I would have blown it off, but I thought it might be required somehow to get the bonus.  So I went.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 07, 2024, 10:57:38 AM
I was bored and depressed.  Each day driving in was awful.  I had no real job, was doing nothing remotely useful to anyone, and had no outs.  And they replaced me with TWO people, no kidding, promoted one of them to my level.  I was all astonishment, but my "boss" was interested in building an empire, one that did nothing of value.

It was all in the budget each year so nobody cared.

I did have a rather entertaining exit interview.  I would have blown it off, but I thought it might be required somehow to get the bonus.  So I went.
That was her. They did not replace her. There was no exit interview or bonus.

She could have "worked" from home for another 4 years and made a ton more money, which would have been close to another $ Million or so.

We never touched her paycheck - we lived on mine.

It would be nice to have that additional money in the bank right now.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 07, 2024, 10:59:44 AM
additional money is always nice

glad I found this job

not bored or depressed anymore
not oppressed by a poor boss

enjoy my job now
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 07, 2024, 11:08:55 AM
https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/07/economy/stocks-week-ahead-services-sector-slow-restaurants-stores/index.html
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 07, 2024, 11:13:12 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/fytZXaY.png)

https://www.wsj.com/articles/blue-state-exodus-irs-data-income-7c878e40?st=sp9vfvqfk55sa5f&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 07, 2024, 03:51:14 PM
[img width=500 height=288.996]https://i.imgur.com/fytZXaY.png[/img]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/blue-state-exodus-irs-data-income-7c878e40?st=sp9vfvqfk55sa5f&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Go Gators?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 07, 2024, 05:51:04 PM
I've been watching various warning signs since around 2012.  Of course I didn't see COVID coming and its impact in time, and didn't try to do anything.  The yield curve has been inverted for so long it's not even discussed any more, same with the debt, (deficits get some play at times).  Higher interest rates sending us into recession?  Not yet.  Consumer spending slowing down?  That seems to be happening.  Consumer credit card debt through the roof?  Yup.  Housing prices unontainable?  Yup.

I've thought we'd see a recession "inside a year" for so long now I no longer think that way, which means, well ....
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on July 08, 2024, 06:46:58 AM
A key part of America’s economy has shifted into reverse | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/07/economy/stocks-week-ahead-services-sector-slow-restaurants-stores/index.html)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 08, 2024, 09:17:40 AM
A key part of America’s economy has shifted into reverse | CNN Business (https://www.cnn.com/2024/07/07/economy/stocks-week-ahead-services-sector-slow-restaurants-stores/index.html)
This doesn't surprise me at all. Disposable income is down for most people.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 08, 2024, 11:29:17 AM
Real median income has been stressed, credit card debt is up, spending is finally lessening.

It's another warning sign of course.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 08, 2024, 11:42:33 AM
As part of my job I track local Municipal Income Tax receipts and there is a clear softening. 

It is somewhat masked by inflation because at this point you need at least 3-5% just to break even. Four or five years ago 3-5% growth was GREAT, now that is basically zero and zero is negative. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Temp430 on July 08, 2024, 12:18:24 PM
Need to cut taxes and I don't mean just decreasing the forecast budget increase a bit.  Like 30% across the board to start so roads out of DC look like Moses leading Israel out of Egypt.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on July 09, 2024, 01:59:15 PM
Need to cut taxes and I don't mean just decreasing the forecast budget increase a bit.  Like 30% across the board to start so roads out of DC look like Moses leading Israel out of Egypt.
Need to cut government spending, like 30% for starters. If I could, I would go through the Fed deptments and have everyone stand in line and number off 1 to 3 and fire all the threes. For those remaining, tell them we do this again next month. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2024, 02:55:24 PM
Need to cut government spending, like 30% for starters. If I could, I would go through the Fed deptments and have everyone stand in line and number off 1 to 3 and fire all the threes. For those remaining, tell them we do this again next month.
And we would not notice a difference at all.

Remember the Government shutdown?

Yeah, me neither.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 09, 2024, 03:10:51 PM
Cutting spending by a third sounds nice, but a LOT of government spending is mandatory and cannot be cut, no matter what, things like debt service.

The largest nonmandatory spending is for defense.  The other spending items are relatively small potatoes, usually under $100 billion (which is a rather large tater).
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 09, 2024, 03:24:22 PM
Cutting spending by a third sounds nice, but a LOT of government spending is mandatory and cannot be cut, no matter what, things like debt service.

The largest nonmandatory spending is for defense.  The other spending items are relatively small potatoes, usually under $100 billion (which is a rather large tater).
Exactly. You can't get to 30% without absolutely massive cuts to Social Security and Medicare/Medicaid benefits, and to defense. 

In fact, mandatory spending + interest on the federal debt combines to 73% of Federal spending, so you'd have to eliminate the ENTIRE discretionary spending budget, including slashing defense to zero, and you'd still only reduce it by 27%. 

(https://i.imgur.com/Ji0OzDJ.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2024, 03:30:29 PM
how about no cuts, just cap the budget at current.
No increases for next year.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 09, 2024, 03:36:43 PM
how about no cuts, just cap the budget at current.
No increases for next year.
Can't with SS/Medicare/Medicaid. Those benefits are defined by law and you can't just "decide" not to pay them. 

Technically Congress could cut benefits, of course... Good luck with that!
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2024, 03:39:39 PM
I don't think the 30% was meant across the board.

I think that was meant for Federal employee volume cut. Could probably cut 2/3 of them and not notice a thing.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 09, 2024, 03:43:44 PM
Can't with SS/Medicare/Medicaid. Those benefits are defined by law and you can't just "decide" not to pay them.

Technically Congress could cut benefits, of course... Good luck with that!

just pay the same as last year

no cuts, but no increases
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 09, 2024, 03:44:17 PM
I don't think the 30% was meant across the board.

I think that was meant for Federal employee volume cut. Could probably cut 2/3 of them and not notice a thing.
Yeah and cutting 2/3 of them would make very little change to federal spending, too. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2024, 03:47:29 PM
Yeah and cutting 2/3 of them would make very little change to federal spending, too.
Agreed. But it would make life a lot better for a lot of people.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 09, 2024, 03:49:01 PM
just pay the same as last year

no cuts, but no increases
Two problems:




Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on July 09, 2024, 04:08:22 PM
In the Columbus area they are building an Intel chip factory, which everyone is excited about. As part of that they have a series of loads of materials that come up to the area, past my mom's house. So every other day my mom is posting about the "super Loads." I can't even make a joke.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on July 09, 2024, 04:21:02 PM
Cutting spending by a third sounds nice, but a LOT of government spending is mandatory and cannot be cut, no matter what, things like debt service.

The largest nonmandatory spending is for defense.  The other spending items are relatively small potatoes, usually under $100 billion (which is a rather large tater).
The mandatory spending on the government could be reduced by cutting the number of government emloyees and by extension, the infrastructure and other assets they use in their jobs. 

The first thing I would do is eliminate a few Federal Departments starting with Education and Energy. That could save a few BILLION per year alone. 

Currently, our debt is about 100% of GDP. We CANNOT sustain that. We have to make drastic changes or we will bankrupt the nation. You have to start somewhere and to me, the most logical place is wiping out entire, worthless departments. It doesn't solve the problem, but starts us in the proper direction. Its like the old question, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 09, 2024, 04:32:17 PM
The mandatory spending on the government could be reduced by cutting the number of government emloyees and by extension, the infrastructure and other assets they use in their jobs.

But you can't. The amount of benefits that SS/Medicare/Medicaid and the other entitlement programs must be paid are completely unrelated to the number or cost of government employees. 

If you can administer those programs with fewer people--and I think you CAN--then it's a good thing. But it's a drop in the bucket compared to the amount spent, and reducing the people won't reduce the amount spent. It'll just be done more efficiently. 


Quote
The first thing I would do is eliminate a few Federal Departments starting with Education and Energy. That could save a few BILLION per year alone.

You're using all-caps on BILLIONS when we're talking about problems numbering in the TRILLIONS of dollars. 


Quote
Currently, our debt is about 100% of GDP. We CANNOT sustain that. We have to make drastic changes or we will bankrupt the nation. You have to start somewhere and to me, the most logical place is wiping out entire, worthless departments. It doesn't solve the problem, but starts us in the proper direction. Its like the old question, how do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

Listen, I'm not saying that we shouldn't wipe out entire, worthless departments. What I'm saying is that you eliminate 100% of every discretionary spending department, including defense, that will basically get you to zero deficit. 2023 we spent $6.1T, and took in $4.4T in taxes. The difference is $1.7T, or the entire Federal discretionary spending budget

You can [and should] keep taking bites out of the elephant, but the "elephant in the room" is entitlement spending. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 09, 2024, 04:36:09 PM
The tax system needs an overhaul. A massive one.

Flat tax everyone, including taxing unrealized gains for those making $X Million and up on those gains. I dunno. Just an idea.

No loopholes, no deductions.

The IRS could be almost eliminated.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 09, 2024, 04:37:58 PM
@betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) 
Looking at this back-and-forth between you, @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) , and @FearlessF (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=10) I had to laugh.  I especially laughed because I assume that you, as a Libertarian, probably generally agree with them on cutting Federal Employees but you realize that it wouldn't materially impact the budget so your argument isn't "Oh my god we can't do that" but rather "Yeah, so what."  

Working around local government has given me some insight into how legislators think and how legislatures operate.  

The first thing to understand is that they think in terms of things they can understand.  As it relates to money (I think I've used this example here before) that means something like this:

In CA you can go higher because housing is so expensive but here in OH that really only works up to about $500k-$750k.  At that point (in OH) you've probably reached the point of "the most expensive house anyone I know owns" and after that they (legislators) have nothing to grasp.  Beyond that it just becomes "A LOT".  Once you reach "A LOT", nobody really seems to notice how big that actual "lot" is.  Ie, they'll argue like crazy over saving $5k on a $50k purchase but when you are asking for $5M, nobody asks any questions.  

This is really stupid because saving 10% on a purchase of $50K is only $5k, big deal but saving 10% on a a $5M purchase is HALF-A-FREAKING-MILLION DOLLARS.  


The next thing is that people on the accounting side of things have a saying that whenever cuts need to be made, Councils (municipal legislatures so like Congress but for your City instead of the US) almost always focus on "Paperclips and Overtime".  

I've seen this literally dozens of times.  Some budget needs cut and you and bet that some Council Member will say "You have $2,850 budgeted for office supplies, couldn't you get by on $2,500?  The unfortunate accountant working for that body will be sitting in his/her chair thinking "Yeah, but we need to cut $500 K, WTF are we doing talking about $350?  

In local government, payroll is usually the dominant expense.  For schools it is often around 75% or more.  For Cities it is usually somewhat lower but still frequently around half or more.  Then, the "rest" is typically made up of things like Utilities, Insurance, Debt Service, and other things that really can't be cut.  

The bottom line (for local Govn't) is that if you want to cut the budget in any appreciable way, you HAVE to reduce employee count.  

In a Federal context what you pointed out is accurate and the employee compensation portion is barely more than a rounding error.  

I always laugh when someone says we need to cut Congressional salaries.  On the scale of the chart you provided, a dot representing Congressional salaries wouldn't be visible.  

I frankly think that we should probably cut a LOT of defense spending but I also realize that this wouldn't even have a material impact on the overall budget.  Per your chart Defense spending was just over 0.8 Trillion out of a budget of $6.1 Trillion.  Ie, defense represents around 13% of total expenditures so even a drastic 25% cut in defense spending would only reduce the overall budget by around 3%.  

Also note that per CBO, last year the US brought in $4.4 Trillion and spent $6.1 Trillion for a deficit of $1.7 Trillion.  To balance the budget you would need to cut almost the entirety of both Nondefense AND Defense "discretionary" spending of $917 Billion and $805 Billion respectively.  That adds up to $1.722 Trillion.  That would only BARELY balance the budget.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 09, 2024, 04:42:35 PM
@betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) , you said a lot of things that I was typing but I didn't see that until after I posted.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 09, 2024, 05:10:44 PM
You're using all-caps on BILLIONS when we're talking about problems numbering in the TRILLIONS of dollars.
This is EXACTLY what I was talking about when I said:
Once you reach "A LOT", nobody really seems to notice how big that actual "lot" is.  Ie, they'll argue like crazy over saving $5k on a $50k purchase but when you are asking for $5M, nobody asks any questions. 

This is really stupid because saving 10% on a purchase of $50K is only $5k, big deal but saving 10% on a a $5M purchase is HALF-A-FREAKING-MILLION DOLLARS. 
Basically any cut in the Federal Budget sounds like a lot of money:

All of those SOUND like ENORMOUS cuts because to any of us, even the $4 Billion that we would save by cutting Income Security Programs by a mere 1% is a HUMONGOUS amount of money.  I think that is even more than @Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) and @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) have!  

The thing is that even if we doubled all of those cuts and made them all (we can't) it would only add up to ~$122 Billion.  The deficit last year was 14 TIMES that amount and the total outstanding debt is 215 TIMES that amount.  On the scale of the Federal Budget, a Billion Dollars is less than a rounding error.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 09, 2024, 05:14:52 PM
I especially laughed because I assume that you, as a Libertarian, probably generally agree with them on cutting Federal Employees but you realize that it wouldn't materially impact the budget so your argument isn't "Oh my god we can't do that" but rather "Yeah, so what." 
Exactly. If I were President, the first thing I'd do in the executive branch would be to institute a hiring freeze. You can't hire, not even replacement for attrition, without a VERY high-level signoff. Instead I'd try to find a way to incentivize internal transfer if a position of absolute need must be filled--move someone from somewhere else.

I'm not thinking I'd need to be laying people off. I'm thinking that over the span of two terms (8 years), by not replacing attrition we could materially shrink the workforce. 


Quote
The next thing is that people on the accounting side of things have a saying that whenever cuts need to be made, Councils (municipal legislatures so like Congress but for your City instead of the US) almost always focus on "Paperclips and Overtime". 
Yeah, and I constantly see people saying that we need to cut down on "waste, fraud, and abuse."

Great. So when we've cut out 0.1% of the federal budget, what are you going to do to actually make a difference?


Quote
I frankly think that we should probably cut a LOT of defense spending but I also realize that this wouldn't even have a material impact on the overall budget.  Per your chart Defense spending was just over 0.8 Trillion out of a budget of $6.1 Trillion.  Ie, defense represents around 13% of total expenditures so even a drastic 25% cut in defense spending would only reduce the overall budget by around 3%. 
3% is material. On $6.1T that's $183B. That's actually, ya know, a LOT of money. 

It's not enough to solve the problem, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. I mean, do we really think we can't protect America with $600B/year rather than $800B per year. $600B will still be double China, and six times higher than Russia.

As in your first quoted portion, it's not that I'm arguing against the idea of reducing federal employment and cutting worthless departments. I'm in favor of that. I'm just saying that to actually make a difference, you have to think bigger. The proposed Department of Education for 2025 is $82B. Great. Mark it zero, Dude. So now you've reduced the deficit from $1.7T to $1.618T. That's good, but it ain't enough. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 09, 2024, 05:56:07 PM
Yeah, and I constantly see people saying that we need to cut down on "waste, fraud, and abuse."

Great. So when we've cut out 0.1% of the federal budget, what are you going to do to actually make a difference?
Eh, I think that "fraud, waste, and abuse" is material and a lot more than 0.1% but cutting it also requires MORE not less federal employees and there is a major diminishing returns issue.  At some point it becomes more expensive to root out the fraud than it is to just pay the fraudulent claims.  

Per BLS, 13% of Americans "have a disability".  It is highest among the elderly:
The numbers for younger cohorts are:
My wife used to work with addicts.  Nearly all of them were on "disability".  They referred to it as their "crazy checks".  Usually the disability WAS their addiction.  I HATE the fact that I and a lot of other workers have to pass a drug test to work but we literally pay for people to sit around and get high.  


I'm libertarian enough to not really care if you are independently wealthy and want to get high or if you can function in some occupation and get high at home on your own dime but I just recoil at paying people to get high while drug testing employees.  

If you look at disabilities over the years, they are WAY up and to me that HAS to be fraud or at least things that I would consider to be fraud.  If you were a ditch digger in 1965 and you threw out your back, you couldn't work.  Today you can still drive the skid steer so disabilities SHOULD be falling but they aren't.  

I do think that there is a LOT of fraud in the SS outlays but I obviously have no idea how much.  

3% is material. On $6.1T that's $183B. That's actually, ya know, a LOT of money.

It's not enough to solve the problem, but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea. I mean, do we really think we can't protect America with $600B/year rather than $800B per year. $600B will still be double China, and six times higher than Russia.

As in your first quoted portion, it's not that I'm arguing against the idea of reducing federal employment and cutting worthless departments. I'm in favor of that. I'm just saying that to actually make a difference, you have to think bigger. The proposed Department of Education for 2025 is $82B. Great. Mark it zero, Dude. So now you've reduced the deficit from $1.7T to $1.618T. That's good, but it ain't enough.
My defense spending would be the 2% of GDP that we "require" of our NATO allies.  At $805 Billion it is 3% of GDP so I would advocate to cut it by 1/3 to about $500 Billion.  That would save around $300 Billion and yeah, that isn't nothing.  It IS a lot of money but still it is ~5% of the Budget and would only cut the deficit from $1.7 to $1.4 Trillion.  

At the end of the day, you can't really move this needle without substantial cuts to SS, Medicare, and Medicaid.  Those are political third rails so here we are.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 09, 2024, 06:18:44 PM
Eh, I think that "fraud, waste, and abuse" is material and a lot more than 0.1% but cutting it also requires MORE not less federal employees and there is a major diminishing returns issue.  At some point it becomes more expensive to root out the fraud than it is to just pay the fraudulent claims. 
Fair enough. I apologize for hyperbole. I'm sure it's much higher than 0.1%, but the point I was trying to make is that it's not $1.7T. 

But the "waste, fraud, and abuse" people throw out that line because they know they can't actually cut entitlements in any meaningful way. So it's a way to talk tough while not actually committing political suicide.


Quote
At the end of the day, you can't really move this needle without substantial cuts to SS, Medicare, and Medicaid.  Those are political third rails so here we are. 

Yep. And "line up every federal employee, count 1 to 3, and fire every #3" is not that far off from "waste, fraud, and abuse". It's a way to talk tough without actually addressing the REAL spending which is SS, Medicare, and Medicaid. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: ELA on July 09, 2024, 07:30:16 PM
I saw a poll, looking for it, where the gap between "how are you financially compared to x years ago" vs. "how is the American economy doing vs. x years ago" is hilariously different.

I think like almost every hot button issue, people think everything is always bad, because the news tells them it is.  Even though their personal lives generally consistently get better, no matter who is in power
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 09, 2024, 07:56:02 PM
I saw a poll, looking for it, where the gap between "how are you financially compared to x years ago" vs. "how is the American economy doing vs. x years ago" is hilariously different.

I think like almost every hot button issue, people think everything is always bad, because the news tells them it is.  Even though their personal lives generally consistently get better, no matter who is in power
The self vs the masses.  Everyone's an exception.  LOL
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 09, 2024, 08:08:06 PM
The self vs the masses.  Everyone's an exception.  LOL
Or maybe the media sells fear & chaos. Even when their own lives are generally fine.

And who are they going to believe? The media, or their lyin' eyes?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: ELA on July 09, 2024, 08:13:05 PM
Or maybe the media sells fear & chaos. Even when their own lives are generally fine.

And who are they going to believe? The media, or their lyin' eyes?
https://youtu.be/PqccEpqvwPY?si=_xGhhKyqTeDh-3Ra
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 09, 2024, 08:19:21 PM
Or maybe the media sells fear & chaos. Even when their own lives are generally fine.

And who are they going to believe? The media, or their lyin' eyes?
It's especially sad that we all pretty much know that talking heads and social media websites actively take advantage of our tendencies and cognitions to exploit and manipulate us.  But we still watch.  We still click.  

In an individual, you can open their eyes and they can see.
In the masses, you can open our eyes, and we're still blind.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 09, 2024, 08:56:51 PM
It's especially sad that we all pretty much know that talking heads and social media websites actively take advantage of our tendencies and cognitions to exploit and manipulate us.  But we still watch.  We still click. 
I don't. When I see an obvious clickbait headline, I avoid it out of principle. When I see a news story that I think is overly dramatized, or slanted, or designed to attack my confirmation bias, I try to drill down as close as I can to the original sources to figure out what's going on and make up my own mind. 

I realize I'll probably sound off to quote Ayn Rand here, but one of her axioms is really important: "Allow nothing to pass the verdict of your own mind." Go into the world assuming everyone's trying to manipulate you, and that you have to wear and maintain mental armor against it.

I do realize that's anecdotal, and I'm the exception. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: ELA on July 09, 2024, 09:03:35 PM
I don't. When I see an obvious clickbait headline, I avoid it out of principle. When I see a news story that I think is overly dramatized, or slanted, or designed to attack my confirmation bias, I try to drill down as close as I can to the original sources to figure out what's going on and make up my own mind.

I realize I'll probably sound off to quote Ayn Rand here, but one of her axioms is really important: "Allow nothing to pass the verdict of your own mind." Go into the world assuming everyone's trying to manipulate you, and that you have to wear and maintain mental armor against it.

I do realize that's anecdotal, and I'm the exception.
The mainstream media is everything that doesn't regurgitate what we already believe
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Temp430 on July 10, 2024, 08:59:23 AM
Maybe the smart play for the Democrats would be to lose the election in order to lay blame for more serious future economic woes they're responsible for at the GOP's feet?

https://www.foxbusiness.com/media/former-home-depot-ceo-biden-economy-created-wrecking-ball-next-president (https://www.foxbusiness.com/media/former-home-depot-ceo-biden-economy-created-wrecking-ball-next-president)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 10, 2024, 09:03:55 AM
I saw a poll, looking for it, where the gap between "how are you financially compared to x years ago" vs. "how is the American economy doing vs. x years ago" is hilariously different.

I think like almost every hot button issue, people think everything is always bad, because the news tells them it is.  Even though their personal lives generally consistently get better, no matter who is in power
I personally have done very well financially since 2020, mostly out of luck.  I don't credit or blame Biden for that.  I try and think about how the country is doing, and it seems pretty clear the middle and lower middle are struggling and don't like it.  Inflation was a shock.  "We" got used to 2% inflation for decades, and when it jumps to 9%, OMG.  And wages struggled to keep up of course.  So folks had to cut back, and use credit cards, etc.  The cutting back part seems to be happening NOW.  

This is a consumer driven economy and if cutting back is real and wide spread ....
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 10, 2024, 02:07:30 PM
This is a consumer driven economy and if cutting back is real and wide spread ....
This is one of the weirdest and most interesting thing about our economy:

It is consumer driven and when consumers *THINK* that a recession is coming, they cut back on spending. If that is widespread enough it becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophecy as:

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on July 10, 2024, 02:34:33 PM
This is one of the weirdest and most interesting thing about our economy:

It is consumer driven and when consumers *THINK* that a recession is coming, they cut back on spending. If that is widespread enough it becomes something of a self-fulfilling prophecy as:
  • Consumer anxiety depresses consumer spending, then
  • Depressed consumer spending causes a recession, then
  • Some of those anxious consumers get laid off essentially because they thought they were going to get laid off.


So we should believe our leaders when they say things are going well and we’ll all do better!!

(I kid, though the addiction to bad news is not ideal)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 10, 2024, 02:42:45 PM
So we should believe our leaders when they say things are going well and we’ll all do better!!

(I kid, though the addiction to bad news is not ideal)
The smart play is to be a contrarian:  Spend MORE during busts and LESS during booms.  This is especially true for hyper-cyclical industries like construction.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 10, 2024, 02:47:31 PM
The smart play is to be a contrarian:  Spend MORE during busts and LESS during booms.  This is especially true for hyper-cyclical industries like construction. 
Like Keynes advocated.

Unfortunately our government didn't get the message. They spend a lot during busts and spend even more during booms. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 10, 2024, 02:52:47 PM
On the deficit, I think the best we could expect, at best, is to have the debt grow more slowly than GDP.  At best.

There is no practicable way to cut the deficit to zero inside some 30 year plan that would get upset along the way.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 10, 2024, 02:55:22 PM
I've seen this done a number of times before so I don't claim it as an original idea but from @betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) 's CBO link:


It is really hard for most people to grasp numbers of that size so take away eight zeros and think of it as a family budget:

Revenues:

Expenditures:
$16,370 Deficit
$262,000 Outstanding Debt

So this "family" with $44,490 in annual income needs to cut expenses and/or raise income by $16,370 just to get to break-even.  Then they can start working on paying off the $262,000 that they have in outstanding debt.  

If they doubled revenues and halved expenditures that would get them to $88,980 in revenue and $30,430 in expenditures.  Five years of that would pay off the debt!  



Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 10, 2024, 02:56:35 PM
Except for the mandatory part.

And cuts in spending or tax increases sufficient would tank the economy.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 10, 2024, 03:02:47 PM
On the deficit, I think the best we could expect, at best, is to have the debt grow more slowly than GDP.  At best.

There is no practicable way to cut the deficit to zero inside some 30 year plan that would get upset along the way.
Agreed, and you can grow your way out of the problem. These two are the same chart but one is denominated in dollars while the other is in %GDP.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 10, 2024, 03:07:56 PM
Explaining America’s Continued Economic Contradictions | AllSides (https://www.allsides.com/story/economy-and-jobs-explaining-america-s-continued-economic-contradictions)

Since 2023, America has seen a persistent contradiction: while the economy is doing well by many metrics, many Americans still say the economy is bad. In May, a majority (https://www.axios.com/2024/05/23/us-recession-economic-data-poll) of Americans polled said the country was in a recession, when — by any standard definition (https://www.allsides.com/story/how-do-we-know-if-we-re-recession) — it was not. (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/A191RL1Q225SBEA) What explains this contradiction? 
‘Complicated’: An analysis from The Christian Science Monitor (Center bias) (https://www.allsides.com/news-source/christian-science-monitor) noted that “while prices are not climbing as fast, they’re still much higher than when President Biden took office,” adding that rising housing costs contributed to voter skepticism. However, it also noted, “While workers have been hit with higher prices, the remarkably strong job market has helped to compensate.”
‘The Matrix of Consumer Discontent’: New York Times Opinion (Left bias) (https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-york-times-opinion-media-bias) columnist and economist Paul Krugman underwent a “forensic exercise” comparing different explanations for the contradiction. Krugman concluded, “The only hypothesis that seems to work across the board involves the narratives people hear and see rather than their own experience.”
‘Biden’s Cruel Economy’: Rep. Jodey Arrington (R-TX) wrote in the Washington Examiner (Lean Right bias) (https://www.allsides.com/news-source/washington-examiner) that “Biden’s policies,” including stimulus and regulations, have created “an economy in decline.” Arrington argued that “people know” the economy is bad, because of “staggering” deficit spending and inflation, which amounted to a “tax” on consumers. 
Why the Difference: Americans are famously partisan in their evaluations of the economy. Ahead of the 2024 election, opponents of President Joe Biden are incentivized to frame the economy negatively, just as supporters are incentivized to frame the economy positively.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 10, 2024, 04:07:34 PM
Like Keynes advocated.

Unfortunately our government didn't get the message. They spend a lot during busts and spend even more during booms.
Yep.  

The problem is getting the government to actually reduce spending during the booms.  

Our government actually did a decent job of this up until the 2008 crash.  Since then they've just gone completely nuts.  If you look at the chart I posted of Debt as a % of GDP (which is the only way to view it because dollars aren't comparable, %GDP is):

The chart starts in the mid-1970's and Federal Debt is roughly 1/4 of GDP.  It remains right about there through the end of the Nixon Administration, the Ford Administration, and the Carter Administration.  In 1980 when Reagan was elected the Debt was 25.5% of GDP.  Then we had 12 years of:
At the end of that, as of 1992 the Debt had risen to roughly 1/2 of GDP, it was 46.8% for 1992.  

Then Democrats controlled everything for two years (1993-1994 was Clinton as President, 258-176 D majority in HoR, 56-44 D majority in the Senate).  The debt as a % of GDP was essentially unchanged in this period but it is probably too short to get a real handle on how their policies would have impacted things if left in place.  

Then in 1994 there was a MASSIVE swing in Congressional control.  Republicans gained 54 seats in the HoR to take a 230-204 majority and eight seats in the Senate to take a 52-48 majority which grew to 54-46 when two former Democrats switched parties.   From 1995-2000 we had a Democratic President and Republican Congress and the Debt shrunk from roughly 1/2 of GDP to roughly 1/3 of GDP.  It was 47.8% in 1994 and 33.7% in 2000.  

From there:
In 2001 and 2002 R's controlled the HoR and the Presidency but the Senate was 50/50.
In 2003-2004 R's controlled the Presidency, the HoR (229-205) and the Senate (51-48+1 "Independent")
In 2005-2006 R's controlled the Presidency, the HoR (232-202), and the Senate (55-44+1)
In 2007-2008 Republican Bush remained in the White House but Democrats took over the HoR (233-202) and the Senate 49+2-49)
With Obama's election in 2008 the Democrats also made HUMONGOUS gains in both houses of Congress so for 2009-2010 they held the Presidency, the HoR (257-178), and the Senate (57+2-49)
In 2010 the Democrats fell back to earth, losing the HoR and losing most of their majority in the Senate so Democrat President, 242-193 Republican HoR, 51+2-47 Democratic Senate
In 2012 Obama was re-elected, and the Democrats expanded their Senate majority to 53+2-45 while eroding but not overtaking the Republican HoR majority to 234-201
In 2014 Republicans expanded their HoR majority to 247-188 and took a 54-44+2 majority in the Senate
In 2016 Trump won the Presidency but the R's lost seats in the HoR (still a 241-194 R majority) and Senate (52-46+2 R majority)
In 2018 R's grew their majority in the Senate to 53+45+2 but lost their majority in the HoR (235-199 D)
In 2020 D's won the Presidency and VERY slim majorities in both houses of Congress, 222-213 in the HoR and 48+2+VP-50 in the Senate
In 2022 D's gained a seat in the Senate to take a 49+2-40 majority while R's took over the HoR 222-213

I think the three biggest "events" in this timeframe (at least the 2001-current portion where I broke it down by year) were 9/11 in 2001, the Credit bubble in 2008, and COVID in 2020.  

9/11 had surprisingly little impact on the Debt as a percentage of GDP.  I'm sure that defense spending rose but Defense isn't THAT big of a chunk of the budget and from 2001-2007 the Debt only grew a few percent from 31.5% of GDP to 35.2% of GDP.  

The credit bubble in 2008 had a much bigger impact.  Heading into that the Debt was still around 1/3 of GDP as it had been since the combination of a Democratic President and Republican Congress got it under control in the late 1990's.  Then in about five years the Debt roughly doubled from just over 1/3 of GDP to just under 3/4 of GDP.  

The response to COVID was to go on an unprecedented spending spree and that took us from debt of around 3/4 of GDP to debt roughly equal to GDP.  In one year (2020) the Debt grew by almost 20% of GDP from 79% of GDP in 2019 to 98.7% of GDP in 2020.  

My view is that Federal Debt of roughly 1/3-3/4 of GDP is manageable but increasingly difficult as it gets higher.  Federal Debt of around equal to GDP may not be sustainable in the long-run.  Interest on the Debt is now more than 10% of Federal Expenditures and is the fifth largest expenditure behind only SS, Nondefense discretionary, Medicare, and Defense.  More problematic is that of those five, one is essentially out of Congress' control two others are the political third rails of SS and Medicare so . . .  What is left is just Defense and Nondefense discretionary but, as @betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) and I discussed above, you would have to literally zero them out to actually balance the budget.  

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 10, 2024, 04:09:43 PM
I personally have done very well financially since 2020, mostly out of luck.  I don't credit or blame Biden for that.  I try and think about how the country is doing, and it seems pretty clear the middle and lower middle are struggling and don't like it.  Inflation was a shock.  "We" got used to 2% inflation for decades, and when it jumps to 9%, OMG.  And wages struggled to keep up of course.  So folks had to cut back, and use credit cards, etc.  The cutting back part seems to be happening NOW. 

This is a consumer driven economy and if cutting back is real and wide spread ....

Many did not cut back, but they are now because their cards are maxed out.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 10, 2024, 04:14:15 PM
It's very counterintuitive thing about tax REVENUE, when tax rates are cut, the tax REVENUE doesn't drop off much, if any longer term.  Revenue isn't the issue exactly.  (This is sometimes termed Hauser's Rule.)  What does cut revenue hard of course is recessions, unsurprisingly, but if one looks at the impact of previous tax cuts on revenue, it's not very obvious.  There probably is some "ideal" income tax rates (Laffer), and maybe it should be higher today for higher income folks, I could see that, but it's not going to raise a ton of revenue, nor is an increase in the corporate tax rate.  And oddly enough, the progressive nature of the US tax code is stronger than for most European countries (they tax the middle harder and have a VAT).  

(https://i.imgur.com/UYKFfaE.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 10, 2024, 05:21:47 PM
Consumers have run out of credit. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 10, 2024, 05:22:36 PM
Correct.

And that is a worry.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 10, 2024, 09:45:00 PM
Agreed, and you can grow your way out of the problem. These two are the same chart but one is denominated in dollars while the other is in %GDP.
this is my idea for capping spending.
at least the spending that can be capped

then, hope for the economy to take off with more taxes coming in and GDP growing
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 09:15:01 AM
Meanwhile, the stock market keeps going up.  I've been gradually trimming some holdings to stay somewhere within "balance" between stocks and bonds and CDs and cash.  Costco jumped after hours by a good bit, it's getting very expensive.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 11, 2024, 10:23:07 AM
I wonder how much longer it can go like this. Gotta be a correction eventually, but no real signs are showing.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 11, 2024, 10:27:04 AM
Yeah we've seen some 1-2 year setbacks in recent time but no major corrections.  That's of some concern.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 11, 2024, 10:29:35 AM
This is of great concern.

Why retirement is out of reach for many working Americans (usatoday.com) (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/07/10/why-americans-cannot-afford-retirement/74303336007/)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 11, 2024, 10:31:35 AM
this is the S&P....  5 year

there was covid and then mid-late 22

(https://i.imgur.com/OiTmpKH.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 11, 2024, 10:32:57 AM
This is of great concern.

Why retirement is out of reach for many working Americans (usatoday.com) (https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2024/07/10/why-americans-cannot-afford-retirement/74303336007/)
because they didn't plan for it and start saving when they were 30 years old?

the stock market has been great the past 30 years
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 11, 2024, 10:38:55 AM
because they didn't plan for it and start saving when they were 30 years old?

the stock market has been great the past 30 years

You gotta have funds available for investing.  Some folks just don't have enough after they've paid all their bills, it's not always because of spending frivolously on luxury items.  Although that's certainly a problem for some, as well.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 10:40:13 AM
You gotta have funds available for investing.  Some folks just don't have enough after they've paid all their bills, it's not always because of spending frivolously on luxury items.  Although that's certainly a problem for some, as well.
Unskilled/low skill laborers are VASTLY poorer than they were 50-60 years ago due to the importation of millions of competitors for their jobs.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 11, 2024, 11:18:58 AM
you gotta sacrifice to save for retirement

doesn't have to be a lot, just a little, but start early

I know plenty of folks my age that could have and should have but didn't

gonna be livin off SS
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 11:26:25 AM
Unskilled/low skill laborers are VASTLY poorer than they were 50-60 years ago due to the importation of millions of competitors for their jobs. 
Is this true in an absolute sense, or a relative sense?  The measured poverty rate per household has been pretty steady since about 1970 as I recall.


Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 11:31:13 AM
Unskilled/low skill laborers are VASTLY poorer than they were 50-60 years ago due to the importation of millions of competitors for their jobs. 
Yeah, it's not that wages pleateaued for like 40 years, adjusting for inflation.  You're right.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 11:32:11 AM
Vastly poorer to me is not he same as plateaued.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 11:36:11 AM
Vastly poorer to me is not he same as plateaued.


Buddy, I have no idea what you're saying here or how to respond.

I THINK we agree, but...idk.  
But it's on me, because that's the default around here.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 11:42:07 AM
Are the working poor vastly poorer than they were 60-60 years ago?

There probably is data on that somewhere.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 11:50:38 AM
Here's the inflation breakdown for June 2024 — in one chart (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/11/heres-the-inflation-breakdown-for-june-2024-in-one-chart.html)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 11:52:37 AM
Yeah, it's not that wages pleateaued for like 40 years, adjusting for inflation.  You're right.
I'd think @medinabuckeye1 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1547) might say wages for the middle and lower classes plateaued because of immigration. I'd think you might say that they've plateaued due to capitalist greed. 

Both of which might be completely different than "vastly poorer", which might mean something different to medina.

And then you've got me, who thinks to a large extent things have gotten better over the years...


(https://i.imgur.com/aFxnScd.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 11, 2024, 11:55:44 AM
From the above "Consumers have more “breathing room” at the store"

This would only be true if employers were giving even small increases in annual pay but in reality many employers have suspended annual pay increases over the past couple of years.  So any increase at all in consumer prices, is a net decrease in buying power, for those affected.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 11:57:47 AM
I don't see any evidence the working poor are "vastly poorer" by any metric I can fathom.  They aren't doing better, I'd agree, but I think most are doing about the same, which is not what would be preferred.  Their percentage overall doesn't really show whether their real median income levels have changed.



Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 12:00:16 PM
This doesn't speak directly to the question either, but it suggests folks in the middle are hanging in there.  If the working poor were "vastly poorer", I don't think real median income would show these increases.

(https://i.imgur.com/okM8URH.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 12:02:36 PM
This is better, I think, and shows stagnation at the lower income levels.

(https://i.imgur.com/AAt7iKC.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 12:16:07 PM
From the above "Consumers have more “breathing room” at the store"

This would only be true if employers were giving even small increases in annual pay but in reality many employers have suspended annual pay increases over the past couple of years.  So any increase at all in consumer prices, is a net decrease in buying power, for those affected.
Is that really true? All I hear is how hard it is to hire workers these days and that would seemingly have to translate into a more worker-friendly environment where they can command higher wages. And likewise I've heard companies complaining about labor costs going up to keep up with inflation. 

It might be partly anecdotal, but my wife in the healthcare industry has had things be MUCH different than it was before COVID. Part of this is a lot of healthcare workers who burned out during COVID and may have left the industry to do something else. But she recently (a little over a year ago) had to replace a medical assistant and couldn't hire someone without offering a 15% pay bump. And her doctors increased her pay by a similar amount to keep the gap between her and the MA in the same range. 

My own personal anecdotal info is less typical, because data storage--a secular growth market--went through a slowdown unlike anything we've seen for decades. On top of layoffs, we had some austerity measures that were unlike anything I've ever seen. But even we went back to giving raises this spring as we started to climb out of it. 

Maybe some of this is colored by being in CA and isn't typical of the rest of the country. But it seems that companies have been forced to do what they can to increase wages, even if it's not increasing at a level commensurate with inflation. I'd say overall purchasing power probably decreased, but have wages not increased at all for most people?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 12:18:48 PM
Wages have increased broadly speaking, they often can't keep up with effective inflation.  Real wages are stagnant for most groups.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 12:23:40 PM
Wages have increased broadly speaking, they often can't keep up with effective inflation.  Real wages are stagnant for most groups.
That makes sense, that the pay increases were smaller than inflation. 

But utee quoted the article that "many companies" (whatever that means) haven't given pay increases at all. While I'm sure some haven't, I'm not sure how many have to be in that camp to be considered "many". I would want a little bit of data on what percentage of the working population has seen pay increases over 2022->2024 to get some idea of whether the article is giving an accurate impression. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 11, 2024, 12:24:29 PM
Wages have increased at fast food places 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 11, 2024, 12:25:51 PM
Any company that hasn't given raises in the past 2 years has probably lost workers
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 12:28:19 PM
I'd guess SOME companies have denied wage increases, probably those that feel they are over staffed currently and may be looking at layoffs.

SOME could be MANY, I don't know the percentage of course.  I can see some smaller companies using this as an excuse to deny wage increases, perhaps their business is off, their cost of goods is way up and they can't manage to pass that on with wage increases.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on July 11, 2024, 12:59:26 PM
Wages have increased at fast food places
until said places go out of business
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 11, 2024, 01:01:26 PM
Is that really true? All I hear is how hard it is to hire workers these days and that would seemingly have to translate into a more worker-friendly environment where they can command higher wages. And likewise I've heard companies complaining about labor costs going up to keep up with inflation.

It might be partly anecdotal, but my wife in the healthcare industry has had things be MUCH different than it was before COVID. Part of this is a lot of healthcare workers who burned out during COVID and may have left the industry to do something else. But she recently (a little over a year ago) had to replace a medical assistant and couldn't hire someone without offering a 15% pay bump. And her doctors increased her pay by a similar amount to keep the gap between her and the MA in the same range.

My own personal anecdotal info is less typical, because data storage--a secular growth market--went through a slowdown unlike anything we've seen for decades. On top of layoffs, we had some austerity measures that were unlike anything I've ever seen. But even we went back to giving raises this spring as we started to climb out of it.

Maybe some of this is colored by being in CA and isn't typical of the rest of the country. But it seems that companies have been forced to do what they can to increase wages, even if it's not increasing at a level commensurate with inflation. I'd say overall purchasing power probably decreased, but have wages not increased at all for most people?


In Austin, Tech is stagnating.  Lots of layoffs, supply of people outstripping demand, resulting depression of salaries and the works.  My evidence, too, is only anecdotal, but then again, I wasn't speaking for the broad economy, only for those in this particular category.  Many of my friends are working for the same income they were 4 years ago.  A couple are working for less, as their companies have asked for broad salary cuts rather than layoffs.  And some, aren't working at all, having been laid off.

None of those people are finding any "relief" that consumer prices have "only" gone up 1% over the past year.  

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 01:10:33 PM
My step son works for that big fruit company in California and hasn't said anything about salary, I know he makes a princely sum.  My daughter had her benefits cut, but they were temporary as an inducement to move to Vancouver, and she just got a rather large raise (working in tech).  Median salaries overall appear to be close to matching inflation.  It could be that health care salaries have gone up more than inflation and tech has not.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 11, 2024, 01:12:01 PM
Any company that hasn't given raises in the past 2 years has probably lost workers
Well, yes, of course.  There's been a ton of layoffs all over the country.  Tech is getting hit hard, and it's really only just begun.  The wave of "AI layoffs" hasn't really even started yet.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 01:33:58 PM
In Austin, Tech is stagnating.  Lots of layoffs, supply of people outstripping demand, resulting depression of salaries and the works.  My evidence, too, is only anecdotal, but then again, I wasn't speaking for the broad economy, only for those in this particular category.  Many of my friends are working for the same income they were 4 years ago.  A couple are working for less, as their companies have asked for broad salary cuts rather than layoffs.  And some, aren't working at all, having been laid off.

None of those people are finding any "relief" that consumer prices have "only" gone up 1% over the past year. 
Got it. I thought you were talking more broad-based.

Tech has been a mess. Pretty sure you and I have been in this industry long enough we've seen hard times, but this was the worst I've personally seen since the dot com bubble burst. And then there's an entire generation of workers in Silicon Valley at the big-name companies who thought it was going to be up and to the right, forever. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 01:54:55 PM
If we look at several key government reported metrics:

Unemployment - Fairly low, upticked recently a bit.
Employment - down from preCOVID highs.
Inflation - down from postCOVID highs.

Stock market - near all time highs
Median real income growth - tepid at best
Interest rates - good for CD holders, not so good for borrowers, but not near historical highs.

Deficit spending - ugh.
Consumer debt  - worrisome.


Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 02:23:22 PM
Yeah, it's not that wages pleateaued for like 40 years, adjusting for inflation.  You're right.
Um, WHY?

I think this chart that @Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) posted is useful:
(https://i.imgur.com/rGO74h0.png)
I can only eyeball it and it appears to only go to 2016 but here is how it *looks* to me:
Part of the problem for the working poor is that there are simply more things to buy now.  A working poor family in the late 1960's probably had a phone but just one for the whole family.  They maybe had a TV but the content was free OTA.  They didn't need internet access because Al Gore hadn't invented the internet yet (technically there was an internet but it wasn't generally accessed or even available).  So the ~$1,100 a month that they earned paid for rent, utilities, and groceries and not much else.  With a "need" today for cell phones, cable TV, internet access, etc. their "necessities" for rent, utilities, groceries, phones, internet, cable exceed their income even worse than they did in the late 1960's.  

A second problem is that people judge their status by their surroundings.  Ie, if you make $100k/yr and live in a community and neighborhood where the median is $50k, you will feel rich.  If you make the same $100k/yr and live in a community where the median is $200k, you will feel poor.  This is true EVEN IF the costs of goods are identical.  On that front, the working poor have dropped MUCH further behind.  Compare the figures I eyeballed above, in 1967 (I think that is the first year shown):
Today:

Literally everyone has dropped relative to the groups that they could aspire to but it has hurt those at the bottom the worst.  A bottom Quintile earner in ~50 years has:

The question is why.  

Automation and computerization are a big part of it.  We simply don't need as many unskilled and semi-skilled laborers because a lot of that labor has been replaced by mechanical and electronic devices.  Jobs like @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) 's and @betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) 's probably didn't even exist in 1967 so it is hard to compare those but Civil Engineers like @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) and accountants like me were around in 1967.  The difference was that in 1967 Civil Engineers and Accountants oversaw and managed a group of draftsmen and bookkeepers respectively.  Draftsmen and bookkeepers have largely disappeared from the workforce because instead of directing them to do the drawing or number crunching like Engineers/Accountants did in 1967, now he uses a program like CAD and I use a program like Excel.  

Instead of clerks we have self-checkout.  Instead of three garbage men on a truck with the two on the back throwing trash, we have one driver and the truck picks up the cans.  Etc.  

Demand for unskilled and semi-skilled labor has flatlined and the solution of those who favor ever-more immigration is to . . . bring in ever more unskilled and semi-skilled laborers for ever less jobs.  I wonder why their wages flatlined.  

So yes Sherlock / @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) / Captain Obvious:  "wages pleateaued for like 40 years, adjusting for inflation."  That isn't up for debate, it is a pretty well established fact.  The question here is why and what to do about it. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 02:44:27 PM
So yes Sherlock / @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) / Captain Obvious:  "wages pleateaued for like 40 years, adjusting for inflation."  That isn't up for debate, it is a pretty well established fact.  The question here is why and what to do about it.
However, the question is a little bit more complex, partly because we have, as a society, done something about it. The amount the poor pay of that income in taxes is effectively nil, and the benefits they get from government are typically nonzero and positive too. Which clouds things a little.

I know this would be considered a somewhat biased organization, but I don't think their math is wrong: https://www.cato.org/blog/reality-incomes-taxes-redistribution-america


(https://i.imgur.com/8eXnSpy.png)
As is often said, it doesn't matter what the number on the top of your pay stub is, it ultimately only matters what your "take home" pay is. 

It may be that the poorest have seen their wages stagnate, but they pay less (basically zero) in taxes on that income and they benefit from government transfer programs, so they basically take home more than they earn. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 02:51:01 PM
They do pay FICA.  And some state tax. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 02:55:25 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/8eXnSpy.png)
Dear CATO:
Your graph would be a LOT more user-friendly if the labels at the right matched to the lines in the graph rather than being inverted such that the top two lines correspond to the bottom two labels and the bottom two lines correspond to the top two labels.  
However, the question is a little bit more complex, partly because we have, as a society, done something about it. The amount the poor pay of that income in taxes is effectively nil, and the benefits they get from government are typically nonzero and positive too. Which clouds things a little.

I know this would be considered a somewhat biased organization, but I don't think their math is wrong: https://www.cato.org/blog/reality-incomes-taxes-redistribution-america
As is often said, it doesn't matter what the number on the top of your pay stub is, it ultimately only matters what your "take home" pay is.

It may be that the poorest have seen their wages stagnate, but they pay less (basically zero) in taxes on that income and they benefit from government transfer programs, so they basically take home more than they earn.
Agree completely on take-home vs earnings.  Nobody cares what their pay is.  They care what they get.  

As a libertarian you cannot possibly see this as a good thing.  

All this does is to introduce vast inefficiency and externalities.  For example:
Upthread you mentioned paying a landscaper rather than mowing your own yard.  As a purchaser of that unskilled labor you benefit from illegal immigration (even if YOUR landscaper is completely legal) and you benefit from the government transfer programs that prop up your landscaper's living (again even if YOUR landscaper doesn't actually avail himself of such programs).  You also pay for those things in the form or either:
Here is the problem.  You don't get a choice.  In a truly free economy (libertarian paradise) you would pay FULL price for your landscaper or mow yourself.  You don't get a choice on the government benefits and you pay for those regardless of whether you pay a landscaper or mow your own yard.  It works out for YOU because you hire a landscaper but I get stuck with part of the bill for YOUR landscaper even though I mow my own yard.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 03:01:19 PM
As a libertarian you cannot possibly see this as a good thing. 
Honestly in our society, it's probably a necessary thing. Even if it creates a bunch of distortions and externalities.

But the point is that it is, in fact, A thing.

Whereas folks like OAM use "real wage stagnation" as a doom and gloom thing about how the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting screwed, it's a little bit more nuanced than that. The rich are getting richer but not as much as shown (due to taxes), and the poor are actually getting slightly richer, even if they're still mostly getting screwed.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 11, 2024, 03:46:14 PM
"Surely you're not saying we have the resources to save the poor from their lot?
There will be poor always pathetically struggling, look at the good things you've got!"

-Jesus Christ, Superstar 
Music by Andrew Lloyd Webber, Book by Tim Rice
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 03:48:54 PM
Honestly in our society, it's probably a necessary thing. Even if it creates a bunch of distortions and externalities.

But the point is that it is, in fact, A thing.

Whereas folks like OAM use "real wage stagnation" as a doom and gloom thing about how the rich are getting richer and the poor are getting screwed, it's a little bit more nuanced than that. The rich are getting richer but not as much as shown (due to taxes), and the poor are actually getting slightly richer, even if they're still mostly getting screwed.
My issue is the gap because it has serious detrimental impacts on social cohesion and society at large.  

This is one area where I think @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) has made a valid point.  The posters here are pretty darn well off.  Substantially all of us have college degrees and there seem to be a higher than normal number with graduate degrees such as lawyers.  Furthermore, it seems to me that we have a pretty high concentration of highly employable undergrad degrees in things such as Engineering and Accounting.  

I would guess (this is nothing but a WAG) that our median income is AT LEAST at the 2nd Quintile level and that few if any posters here are below the Middle Quintile.  

If that sentiment is accepted then "we" are wealthier than those in the 4th and 5th Quintiles.  This has, of course, always been true but the gap is substantially larger than it was 60 years ago.  Assuming "we" are 2nd Quintile, at the beginning of @Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) 's graph (approximately 1967) "they" (4th and 5th Quintile earners) made roughly 1/2 and roughly 1/5 respectively of what "we" make.  Today that is down to around 1/3 and 1/7.  

There are also other separations that have made this worse.  Fro won't appreciate this but even as late as when I was growing up in the 70's and 80's nearly everyone in my town went to Church on Sundays.  To be fair this tradition was fairly heavily racially segregated but it was notably NOT segregated by income.  There were rich and poor Catholics, rich and poor Methodists, rich and poor Baptists, etc.  This matters because it meant that rich and poor people were socializing with each other on a frequent basis at Church Services, potlucks, Sunday schools, etc.  

Churchgoing has nearly disappeared (compared to where it was when I was a kid) and it hasn't been replaced by any similarly class-mixing social activity.  

Another area where we have separated is in marriage rates.  The percentage of college-educated white women who are married at first childbirth is nearly as high today as it was when Leave it to Beaver was on TV.  The difference is that back when Leave it to Beaver was on TV the rates for less educated white women and even the rates for minorities were not all that much lower than the rate for college educated white women.  Today marriage is a rarity among the poor (they can't afford it because they are poorer than they used to be even if some think that government transfers have made up for their income losses).  Among blacks married fathers are so rare as to practically be unicorns (ie, everyone knows what one is but you almost never actually see one).  

Our society is tearing itself apart.  The similarities that we used to share have vanished.  

Ask yourselves (ye top and 4th Quintile posters here), when is the last time you socialized willingly with anyone below the middle Quintile?  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 04:10:30 PM
Ask yourselves (ye top and 4th Quintile posters here), when is the last time you socialized willingly with anyone below the middle Quintile? 
Do my kids count? Because they don't earn shit.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 04:13:33 PM
Actually, scratch that. You said "willingly". I guess they don't count then :57:
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 04:56:09 PM
Um, WHY?

I think this chart that @Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) posted is useful:
[img width=500 height=362.992]https://i.imgur.com/rGO74h0.png[/img]

So yes Sherlock / @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) / Captain Obvious:  "wages pleateaued for like 40 years, adjusting for inflation."  That isn't up for debate, it is a pretty well established fact.  The question here is why and what to do about it.

The top 2 lines employ the bottom 3 lines.  If employer wages have leapt and the employee wages are stagnant, it's a pretty easy "why."

The employers pay as little as possible to get 'enough' output for steady growth and then keep all the increases.
You can find the stats that show CEO income to employee income ratios exploding over the same time period.  

It's unethical.  We all know it.  But the winners shrug and the losers continue to live on the razor's edge of survival.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 04:58:11 PM
Maybe it’s not clear how to fix it.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 05:08:50 PM
I'd think @medinabuckeye1 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1547) might say wages for the middle and lower classes plateaued because of immigration. I'd think you might say that they've plateaued due to capitalist greed.


Well, employing illegal immigrants is....illegal, so it's still a case of capitalist greed if that's the bigger issue.  Paying those immigrants less = more money for the employers.  Rinse.  Repeat.  Shrug.  Win.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 05:17:07 PM
The top 2 lines employ the bottom 3 lines.  If employer wages have leapt and the employee wages are stagnant, it's a pretty easy "why."

The employers pay as little as possible to get 'enough' output for steady growth and then keep all the increases.
You can find the stats that show CEO income to employee income ratios exploding over the same time period. 

It's unethical.  We all know it.  But the winners shrug and the losers continue to live on the razor's edge of survival.
This is a lot like blaming corporate greed for inflation.  Ok, were corporations NOT greedy for the past 35 years of low inflation.  

Similarly here, were CEO's NOT greedy and unethical in the 1960's when bottom Quintile earnings were closer to the others?  

Also, if CEO's (who are top 5% not top two Quintiles) can just unilaterally pay whatever they want to their employees then why do they bother to pay decent and increasing-over-time wages to their higher-level employees?  

The "corporate greed is the culprit" argument fails because you can't realistically argue that Carnegie/Rockefeller were LESS greedy than today's CEO's.  

Bottom Quintile earnings did not fall because CEO's suddenly woke up in the mid-60's one morning and said "hey, lets pay less to our low-end employees and keep more money for ourselves".  

CEO's have always been incentivized to pay as little as possible to get the output.  The difference isn't changing Corporate Greed.  By the way, most of those CEO's and Billionaires are Democrats so I *COULD* just say ok, your fault.  

Wages are a price for labor and like any other price they are set in the market based on supply and demand:

Our Bottom Quintile and 2nd Quintile earners are primarily suffering from two compounding factors:

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 05:29:25 PM
This is a lot like blaming corporate greed for inflation.  Ok, were corporations NOT greedy for the past 35 years of low inflation. Their relative wealth has grown with the income disparity. 

Similarly here, were CEO's NOT greedy and unethical in the 1960's when bottom Quintile earnings were closer to the others? Yes, but their profits weren't as great, so the disparity was less.

Also, if CEO's (who are top 5% not top two Quintiles) can just unilaterally pay whatever they want to their employees then why do they bother to pay decent and increasing-over-time wages to their higher-level employees? Good question.  I suspect it's to delineate a line between white collar and blue collar.  In-group and out-group.

The "corporate greed is the culprit" argument fails because you can't realistically argue that Carnegie/Rockefeller were LESS greedy than today's CEO's. You're citing the guys monopoly laws were practically invented for?

Bottom Quintile earnings did not fall because CEO's suddenly woke up in the mid-60's one morning and said "hey, lets pay less to our low-end employees and keep more money for ourselves". Idk why you threw this in.

CEO's have always been incentivized to pay as little as possible to get the output.  The difference isn't changing Corporate Greed.  By the way, most of those CEO's and Billionaires are Democrats so I *COULD* just say ok, your fault. I'm not a Dem, as I've said countless times on here.  I don't give a shit what party a CEO subscribes to.  It's completely irrelevant. 

Wages are a price for labor and like any other price they are set in the market based on supply and demand:
  • Increase the supply and (all else being equal), price drops. 
  • Decrease the supply and (all else being equal), price rises. 
  • Increase the demand and (all else being equal), price rises. 
  • Decrease the demand and (all else being equal), price drops. Great, this is why we're looking at aggregate data over decades.

Our Bottom Quintile and 2nd Quintile earners are primarily suffering from two compounding factors:
  • Automation and computerization have caused a downward pressure on the demand for unskilled/low-skilled labor.  Decreases in demand cause decreases in price. 
  • America's Immigration Restrictionism of roughly 1920's to 1965 ended with the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.  That combined with a growing refusal to make even minimal efforts to enforce the border and keep out illegals has flooded the market with vast sums of unskilled and low-skilled laborers.  Don't illegally hire people just to make an extra buck.


Unskilled/low-skilled labor isn't value, and thus, isn't paid even decently.  There's no incentive to pay it decently because unskilled laborers don't have any power.

And there is always an excess of unskilled/low-skilled workers.  Most people don't have a 4-year degree.  Illegal immigrants flooded an already flooded market.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 05:30:27 PM
The employers pay as little as possible to get 'enough' output for steady growth and then keep all the increases.
Employers don't set wages. The employers pay wages that are defined not by the employers, but by the supply/demand balance in the market for the workers that can do the job. 

If lots of people can do a job (such as low-skill labor), the supply exceeds the demand and drives down wages. If few people can do a job (like highly technical or complicated things like, for example, neurosurgery), the demand exceeds the supply and drives up wages. 

You're right, of course, that the employers want to pay as little as they can. To pay more than they have to would be, well, stupid. But how low they can get away with is dependent on market rates. 

Different businesses also do different things within that... For example even in a low-skill job like fast food, In & Out here locally is known for paying wages above and beyond what is typical for fast food joints. They make that choice because of what they get for it--access to higher quality workers than their competition, lower turnover rates, and better employee morale. 

You may view labor through the lens of "exploiters vs exploited", but as with everything, it's always a lot more complicated than you think.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on July 11, 2024, 05:33:34 PM
Unskilled/low-skilled labor isn't value, and thus, isn't paid even decently.  There's no incentive to pay it decently because unskilled laborers don't have any power.

And there is always an excess of unskilled/low-skilled workers.  Most people don't have a 4-year degree.  Illegal immigrants flooded an already flooded market.
I continue to state that "unskilled/low-skilled" workers is a rough category with little meaning.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 05:36:08 PM

Our Bottom Quintile and 2nd Quintile earners are primarily suffering from two compounding factors:
  • Automation and computerization have caused a downward pressure on the demand for unskilled/low-skilled labor.  Decreases in demand cause decreases in price. 
  • America's Immigration Restrictionism of roughly 1920's to 1965 ended with the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965.  That combined with a growing refusal to make even minimal efforts to enforce the border and keep out illegals has flooded the market with vast sums of unskilled and low-skilled laborers. 
Also globalization. Low-skill workers aren't just competing with other low-skill Americans and low-skill immigrants (legal or not). They're competing with low-skill workers in foreign countries where the prevailing wages are a fraction of what they are here. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 05:37:55 PM
Employers don't set wages. The employers pay wages that are defined not by the employers, but by the supply/demand balance in the market for the workers that can do the job.

If lots of people can do a job (such as low-skill labor), the supply exceeds the demand and drives down wages. If few people can do a job (like highly technical or complicated things like, for example, neurosurgery), the demand exceeds the supply and drives up wages.

You're right, of course, that the employers want to pay as little as they can. To pay more than they have to would be, well, stupid. But how low they can get away with is dependent on market rates.

Different businesses also do different things within that... For example even in a low-skill job like fast food, In & Out here locally is known for paying wages above and beyond what is typical for fast food joints. They make that choice because of what they get for it--access to higher quality workers than their competition, lower turnover rates, and better employee morale.

You may view labor through the lens of "exploiters vs exploited", but as with everything, it's always a lot more complicated than you think.
Agreed, but the corporations desire and gain influence with politicians, other stakeholders, and each other in order to influence the ebbs and flows of their industries.  They move mountains to limit risk and any increases to labor costs (and other costs, obviously).

With your post - if it accompanied a chart in which every line had gradual increase/uptick, that'd be great.  Ethical.  Fair.  
But it's not.  And it's not.  And it's not.  

"Life's not fair," no shit, Fro. 
Well, it could be much more fair and the billionaires would still be billionaires, the millionaires would still be millionaires, and the poor would still be poor.  
But the fewer people we have at the ends of the income bell curve, the better.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 05:39:50 PM
Also globalization. Low-skill workers aren't just competing with other low-skill Americans and low-skill immigrants (legal or not). They're competing with low-skill workers in foreign countries where the prevailing wages are a fraction of what they are here.
Yeah, this is fucked up, too.  I don't like the idea of banning it, of course, but as long as it's allowed, what can you do?
Illegal immigrants flooded a global flood. Thanks, hadn't thought of that.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 05:41:54 PM
I continue to state that "unskilled/low-skilled" workers is a rough category with little meaning.
For me, it's any job a person off the street could do with a few minutes/hours/days of apprenticeship or a 4-hour training video.  Picking cabbage.  Flipping burgers.  Hammering nails.  Cleaning carpets.  Etc.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 11, 2024, 05:43:25 PM
Using the lowest cost manufacturing regardless of geography doesn't have all the benefits once imagined, and it has far more risks than ever imagined.  Consequently there are numerous American companies either moving manufacturing back to the USA, or at least much closer.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 05:48:52 PM
As long as we can keep Indian and Filipino call centers busy, we've done our job.

The local Rally's drive-thru fast-food place has had an AI robot taking orders within the past year.  So that's fun.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 05:58:11 PM
Agreed, but the corporations desire and gain influence with politicians, other stakeholders, and each other in order to influence the ebbs and flows of their industries.  They move mountains to limit risk and any increases to labor costs (and other costs, obviously).

With your post - if it accompanied a chart in which every line had gradual increase/uptick, that'd be great.  Ethical.  Fair. 
But it's not.  And it's not.  And it's not. 

"Life's not fair," no shit, Fro.
Well, it could be much more fair and the billionaires would still be billionaires, the millionaires would still be millionaires, and the poor would still be poor. 
But the fewer people we have at the ends of the income bell curve, the better. 
That was the point of the graph I made which showed income distribution when government transfers and taxes are added in. You may claim that "real wages" have been stagnant in the lower quintiles for 40+ years, but the poor have actually made real gains over those years. What you're advocating for is actually happening. 

The truth is that capitalism / the free market is the greatest prosperity engine that humanity has ever seen. It's the goose laying golden eggs. It's not perfect. It doesn't account for everyone. So use capitalism to generate the wealth and government to help those who are left behind. DON'T completely screw up the system and kill the goose by destroying all incentives that make capitalism work. 

It's like our health care system. It's got all the bad parts of capitalism and all the bad parts of socialism. Most of Europe has all the bad parts of socialism, and none of the good parts of capitalism. You know who got it right? The Swiss. Their system has the good parts of capitalism and the good parts of socialism. I may ideologically be a libertarian, but I'm also an engineer. I recognize when someone has designed something that works. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 05:58:19 PM
Well, employing illegal immigrants is....illegal, so it's still a case of capitalist greed if that's the bigger issue.  Paying those immigrants less = more money for the employers.  Rinse.  Repeat.  Shrug.  Win.
Eh, fine but there has also been substantially no effort to actually enforce the law.  E-verify has been repeatedly spiked by the R-leaning Cheap Labor Lobby and the D-leaning More D's lobby. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 06:04:20 PM
Unskilled/low-skilled labor isn't value, and thus, isn't paid even decently.  There's no incentive to pay it decently because unskilled laborers don't have any power.

And there is always an excess of unskilled/low-skilled workers.  Most people don't have a 4-year degree.  Illegal immigrants flooded an already flooded market.
Unskilled/low skilled labor in the US for generations was MUCH better paid than in Europe.  Want to know why?  Because we had LOTS of land and it was cheap so if a guy thought the factory in Boston wasn't offering enough he could go die of dysentery on the way out West to try to make it as an independent Farmer.  
(https://i.imgur.com/Ew5Pk3O.png)
A guy in London (rather than Boston) simply didn't have that option.  He was stuck.  American wages were higher because of Supply and Demand.  Supply was limited in the US because the workers had options.  

Illegal immigrants flooded an already flooded market.
For the purpose of this argument, I'll accept your premise.  Ok, the market was already flooded.  So then we should . . . Flood it MORE?  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 06:04:41 PM
Europe in my view is mostly a free market with a generous safety net, which is not socialism in itself.  They also have quite high taxes on the middle and lower middle.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 06:05:32 PM
I continue to state that "unskilled/low-skilled" workers is a rough category with little meaning.
The exact definition isn't really important.  I'll accept Fro's:
For me, it's any job a person off the street could do with a few minutes/hours/days of apprenticeship or a 4-hour training video.  Picking cabbage.  Flipping burgers.  Hammering nails.  Cleaning carpets.  Etc.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 06:07:23 PM
Also globalization. Low-skill workers aren't just competing with other low-skill Americans and low-skill immigrants (legal or not). They're competing with low-skill workers in foreign countries where the prevailing wages are a fraction of what they are here.
This is true but only to an extent.  Sure, we can offshore the building of widgets and ship the widgets back from Japan, S Korea, Taiwan, China, Timbucktoo, etc.  We can't offshore the mowing of your lawn or the drywalling of your new house.  

So they ARE competing with the global pool for some jobs but not all.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 06:08:36 PM
Agreed, but the corporations desire and gain influence with politicians, other stakeholders, and each other in order to influence the ebbs and flows of their industries.  They move mountains to limit risk and any increases to labor costs (and other costs, obviously).

With your post - if it accompanied a chart in which every line had gradual increase/uptick, that'd be great.  Ethical.  Fair. 
But it's not.  And it's not.  And it's not. 
Again, this presupposes that robber barons were MORE ethical than today's CEO's.  Really?  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 06:09:49 PM
That was the point of the graph I made which showed income distribution when government transfers and taxes are added in. You may claim that "real wages" have been stagnant in the lower quintiles for 40+ years, but the poor have actually made real gains over those years. What you're advocating for is actually happening.

The truth is that capitalism / the free market is the greatest prosperity engine that humanity has ever seen. It's the goose laying golden eggs. It's not perfect. It doesn't account for everyone. So use capitalism to generate the wealth and government to help those who are left behind. DON'T completely screw up the system and kill the goose by destroying all incentives that make capitalism work.

It's like our health care system. It's got all the bad parts of capitalism and all the bad parts of socialism. Most of Europe has all the bad parts of socialism, and none of the good parts of capitalism. You know who got it right? The Swiss. Their system has the good parts of capitalism and the good parts of socialism. I may ideologically be a libertarian, but I'm also an engineer. I recognize when someone has designed something that works.
I'm not down on capitalism, I was just copying the phrase you used.  Capitalism is great.  But like a few bad apples ruining things for the rest of us (PSA checkpoints, women not going out alone at night, no booze on Sundays (wait, that's a ton of bad apples (j/k)), I think those who are driven towards unlimited growth/wealth/power/influence largely ruin capitalism.  
There is a mighty, mighty chasm between having a few trillionaires and 30% of the populace being poor AND any sort of idealized version of socialism.  
Hell, maybe the same type of person that easily ruins socialism is the one trying his best to ruin capitalism, idk.

All I'm honestly advocating for here is some skinning off the top to give to the connected bottom.
Amazon is the perfect example.  Does anyone here have a problem with something like 1% of Bezos' take-home going towards simply improving the conditions for the warehouse workers?  Is that such a radical idea?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 06:10:17 PM
"Life's not fair," no shit, Fro.
Well, it could be much more fair and the billionaires would still be billionaires, the millionaires would still be millionaires, and the poor would still be poor. 
But the fewer people we have at the ends of the income bell curve, the better. 
On this I agree with you absolutely so lets stop importing more unskilled and low-skill laborers who make the rich richer (by mowing @betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) 's yard for example) and make the poor poorer by competing with the pre-existing Americans who would otherwise take jobs like that.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 06:10:50 PM
Again, this presupposes that robber barons were MORE ethical than today's CEO's.  Really? 
I don't see that presupposition.  Can you essplain?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 06:11:41 PM
It's like our health care system. It's got all the bad parts of capitalism and all the bad parts of socialism. 
This is something I've been saying for a long time.  Our healthcare system largely is the negative portions of capitalism merged with the negative portions of socialism.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 06:12:25 PM
On this I agree with you absolutely so lets stop importing more unskilled and low-skill laborers who make the rich richer (by mowing @betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) 's yard for example) and make the poor poorer by competing with the pre-existing Americans who would otherwise take jobs like that. 
We all would like illegal immigration to stop and for a functional legal immigration system to work better.

You're now freed up to leave that hill and expand your topics of conversation.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 06:13:01 PM
This is something I've been saying for a long time.  Our healthcare system largely is the negative portions of capitalism merged with the negative portions of socialism. 
I'll betcha a greedy few are behind it and operate with influence to maintain that status quo.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 11, 2024, 06:14:32 PM
I don't see that presupposition.  Can you essplain?
Why was income inequality so much lower in the 1960's?  

If it is caused by corporate greed then it's absence must be caused by the absence of corporate greed, no?  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 06:15:58 PM
Why was income inequality so much lower in the 1960's? 

If it is caused by corporate greed then it's absence must be caused by the absence of corporate greed, no? 
Post 115 - my quote of your post - the bold.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 06:18:03 PM
Europe in my view is mostly a free market with a generous safety net, which is not socialism in itself.  They also have quite high taxes on the middle and lower middle.
I'll admit to not knowing as much "on the ground" in Europe, and clearly in current parlance invoking Heritage is probably not the best source, but they do happen to have an index based on economic freedom:

https://www.heritage.org/index/pages/all-country-scores

The Swiss, Ireland, the Nordics, and (perhaps surprisingly?) some of the former Soviet nations score highly. When you start getting into the bulk of Western Europe, though, things start to falter. 

My understanding is that a lot of it is due to protectionism and a lot of government involvement in large corporations. Not enough to call them "state-sponsored" in the way China does it, but that certain entities--let's say companies like Airbus--are "too big to fail' and the decisions related to their business can't happen without state involvement. 

In a general sense, you can say they're capitalist with a robust social safety net, but when you look at places like France where the national pastime is "going on strike", it might suggest that the balance maybe went too far in one direction...
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 06:34:03 PM
I prefer the terms free markets vs central planning.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 06:35:37 PM
https://www1.salary.com/Jeffrey-P-Bezos-Salary-Bonus-Stock-Options-for-amazon-com-inc.html#:~:text=Bezos%20made%20%241%2C681%2C840%20in%20total,for%20the%202023%20fiscal%20year.

$1.7 million, his salary …..
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 07:17:05 PM
https://www1.salary.com/Jeffrey-P-Bezos-Salary-Bonus-Stock-Options-for-amazon-com-inc.html#:~:text=Bezos%20made%20%241%2C681%2C840%20in%20total,for%20the%202023%20fiscal%20year.

$1.7 million, his salary …..
This is the most meaningless post on the website.  And you know it is.  Yet you persist.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 07:27:07 PM
This is the most meaningless post on the website.  And you know it is.  Yet you persist.
No, it goes to feasibility to what you want to do. If you're trying to squeeze Bezos via income tax, he doesn't have THAT remarkable of an income. 

I mean, I know where you're coming from. YOU know he's got the money, so might as well send Rocco and Vinny to shake some quarters loose from him, right? 

But as always, it's a lot more complicated. Wealth taxes have been tried in a lot of places, and generally backfire. Income taxes won't affect him much. 

So your solution is "make Bezos pay, dammit!" Well, exactly how are you going to make that happen? Other than just saying "gimme gimme gimme, Jeff!"
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 07:45:06 PM
No, it goes to feasibility to what you want to do. If you're trying to squeeze Bezos via income tax, he doesn't have THAT remarkable of an income.

I mean, I know where you're coming from. YOU know he's got the money, so might as well send Rocco and Vinny to shake some quarters loose from him, right?

But as always, it's a lot more complicated. Wealth taxes have been tried in a lot of places, and generally backfire. Income taxes won't affect him much.

So your solution is "make Bezos pay, dammit!" Well, exactly how are you going to make that happen? Other than just saying "gimme gimme gimme, Jeff!"

Sorry if this was murky, but I've been suggesting these corporations take from their own rich and give to their own poor.  Not taxes.  The tens of thousands of backs the famous, pretty company relies upon.

I don't know HOW other than a company's leaders wanting to improve the lives of the many at the miniscule cost of the few (in-house).  And a 1-year snapshot of someone like Bezos' salary/wealth is a fucking joke of a contribution here, especially the year he left.  

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on July 11, 2024, 07:54:29 PM
No, it goes to feasibility to what you want to do. If you're trying to squeeze Bezos via income tax, he doesn't have THAT remarkable of an income.

I mean, I know where you're coming from. YOU know he's got the money, so might as well send Rocco and Vinny to shake some quarters loose from him, right?
Ya left out Dutch and Bruno he's a big fish you know - one for each limb
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 08:13:29 PM
I'm not down on capitalism, I was just copying the phrase you used.  Capitalism is great.  But like a few bad apples ruining things for the rest of us (PSA checkpoints, women not going out alone at night, no booze on Sundays (wait, that's a ton of bad apples (j/k)), I think those who are driven towards unlimited growth/wealth/power/influence largely ruin capitalism. 
There is a mighty, mighty chasm between having a few trillionaires and 30% of the populace being poor AND any sort of idealized version of socialism. 
Hell, maybe the same type of person that easily ruins socialism is the one trying his best to ruin capitalism, idk.

All I'm honestly advocating for here is some skinning off the top to give to the connected bottom.
Amazon is the perfect example.  Does anyone here have a problem with something like 1% of Bezos' take-home going towards simply improving the conditions for the warehouse workers?  Is that such a radical idea?
His take home is $1.7 million.  So 1% sees paltry to me.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 11, 2024, 08:15:50 PM
Well I'm sure this will fix it...

https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/politics/prop-32-california-minimum-wage-increase/509-93f856e6-a4b6-4857-baf6-ee01e27fd96e
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on July 11, 2024, 08:18:51 PM
Well I'm sure this will fix it...

https://www.cbs8.com/article/news/politics/prop-32-california-minimum-wage-increase/509-93f856e6-a4b6-4857-baf6-ee01e27fd96e
lol.   I have been reading a lot about layoffs, staff reductions and reduced hours due to this.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 10:21:19 PM
His take home is $1.7 million.  So 1% sees paltry to me.
You are incorrigible.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 11, 2024, 10:23:01 PM
lol.  I have been reading a lot about layoffs, staff reductions and reduced hours due to this. 
If it doesn't pass, you'll have employed homeless people.

If it does pass, you'll have unemployed homeless people.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 11, 2024, 11:22:03 PM
You are incorrigible.
Explain my error.  You can’t. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on July 12, 2024, 06:46:48 AM
This is a lot like blaming corporate greed for inflation.  Ok, were corporations NOT greedy for the past 35 years of low inflation.
Congress has been handing the Defense industry BILLIONS & BILLIONS and we're actually less safe.Before the bitch croaked last year her handlers propped up Dian Finestein before the house appropriations committee. As they wheeled her in she sat there and babbled she'd like to pass the legislation allocating like 718 Billion dollars - congress actually passed a 886 Billion dollar defense bill later. Of course Diane had lots of coin invested there

How is someone like myself on a fixed income and not "well off" as our taxes get driven up by crap like that.Our County taxes have literally gone thru the roof in my city even though the state has has ruled the way schools are funded unconstitutional yet we've had two new facilities for primary and secondary(well one is just actually getting built) the other completed 7yrs ago. Yet now in my 60s after 41 yrs of toil I have the good fortune of have 80/20 medical ins while down the street the immigrant from Syria has a VOLVO SUV and has a state food card and medical coverage(and that is the truth of it). But those of us who have paid our time and dues are watching Congress and Big Business(medical now being problematic also) just screw over the once robust middle class and allocating all sorts of funds to all sorts of leeches - and that is as nice as phrase to describe all of this

Like the man said  - a hard rain is  gonna fall.

And at least in THIS instance OAM reminds me of Belushi & the Animal House quote

Bluto's right. Psychotic... but absolutely right. We gotta take these bastards.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 08:17:23 AM
I find it interesting how I bring "data and facts" to someone's proposal, and I'm "incorrigible", that isn't what he really meant, or something.  Post what you mean, with "data and facts", and make a point, instead of some drivel that is absurd prima facia.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 08:21:24 AM
Maybe it's new learning for some folks, I dunno, but you don't get to be a billionaire on salary and compensation.

You inherit it is one way.  You start some company that goes bonkers is another, and because you own nearly all the stock, you wake up one morning with a billion plus in stock.

And on that billion, you have yet to pay a dime in INCOME tax.  Not a dime (you may have sold some of course, but that isn't part of the billion if you spent it).

Bezos doesn't get much salary because it's irrelevant to his bottom line.  His actual salary is under $100 K per year.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 12, 2024, 09:27:19 AM
I don't know why everyone is focusing on Bezos. He's not even the CEO any more. Not for the last 3 years. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 12, 2024, 09:38:39 AM
Billionaires are an easy target

no sense focusing on them

the government isn't going to redistribute their wealth

sorry
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 09:46:53 AM
Politicians focus on them.  Biden promises to "make them pay" (which is entirely inaccurate of course).  They are an easy target so they are a target politically with nice sounding words that mean squat.

But the overall concept is so apparently appealing ....
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 12, 2024, 09:49:03 AM
Politicians focus on them.  Biden promises to "make them pay" (which is entirely inaccurate of course).  They are an easy target so they are a target politically with nice sounding words that mean squat.

But the overall concept is so apparently appealing ....
No shit, eh?

He's not gonna make his elite megadonors pay a damn thing. He's full of shit, as is the norm.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 09:54:56 AM
Of course, his tax proposal is on INCOME, not wealth.  But it makes for a nice soundbite.

A ton of folks think billionaires must have a lot of taxable income the government can grab, like Bezos or Elon or whoever else gets in the news and is super wealthy.

It's how things are.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 12, 2024, 10:22:54 AM
Of course, his tax proposal is on INCOME, not wealth.  But it makes for a nice soundbite.

A ton of folks think billionaires must have a lot of taxable income the government can grab, like Bezos or Elon or whoever else gets in the news and is super wealthy.

It's how things are. 
There's been talk of taxing unrealized gains.

I could probably get behind taxing those, beginning at something like $10 Million or so, of unrealized gains. Meaning, of course, it you made $11 Million in gains, you'd pay tax on $1 Million. You'd pay on $10 Million if you made $20 Million.

Flat tax of, say, 22 percent on everyone making $20K/year or more. If you made $20K, your tax is zero. If you made $30K, you pay taxes on $10K.

I'm just throwing darts out there. I do not know exactly where the numbers would need to be.

Discretionary spending (pork) cuts are a must.

Reduction of Government employees is a must.*

Dissolving Government employee unions is a must.

Reduction in regulations is a must.

* If you are deemed non-essential in the event of a government shutdown, you are automatically out. You ARE non-essential.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 12, 2024, 11:20:30 AM
I prefer the terms free markets vs central planning. 
My issue with these terms regardless of whether you use free markets/central planning, capitalism/socialism, or some other variant is that it creates a false dichotomy. 

In reality there really aren't any "pure" free market economies in the world because government always is involved to some degree. Similarly, there aren't any pure centrally planned economies either because people will cut corners and barter if it benefits them.

Old Soviet Economy Joke:
A comrade in the USSR got approved to buy a car so he went down to the Trabant factory to submit his order. The Trabant factory official told him to fill out his order, put it in the pile, and come back in 20 years to pick up his car. The guy said: "In the morning or in the afternoon?"

The Trabant factory official said: "What difference does it make, it is 20 years from now?".

The guy said: "The plummer is scheduled to come that morning so I'd like to pick up the car in the afternoon."
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 12, 2024, 11:21:00 AM
Does the government give the money back the next year when you have an unrealized loss?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 12, 2024, 11:32:07 AM
Does the government give the money back the next year when you have an unrealized loss?
If it was treated like Capital Gains/Losses are now you'd get a capped deduction that you could carry forward (or backward) for a set period of time.

Exapmle (ignoring @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) 's $10M floor):
You have $150k in unrealized capital gain in 2023 that you have to pay tax on.

You have a $250k unrealized capital loss in 2024. You can:

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 11:35:06 AM
My issue with these terms regardless of whether you use free markets/central planning, capitalism/socialism, or some other variant is that it creates a false dichotomy.
This is certainly true, but when folks say "capitalism" in a broad sense, I prefer the term "free market economy", in the same broad sense.

Folks use socialism to mean all kinds of weird things, where as a centrally planned economy is more descrriptive, in my view.  And as you say, nearly every economy is a hybrid.  

A country can have a free market economy (substantially) AND a generous social safety net.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 12, 2024, 11:37:35 AM
I mean, I understand the mechanics of it.

I just don't agree that you can treat an unrealized gain the same as a realized gain.

I understand the energy behind the effort, trying to find some way to get the "rich" to pay "their share."  

But there are lot of reasons why past attempts like this, simply haven't worked out.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 11:46:54 AM
Such a scheme would be great for tax preparers.

Imagine in the first year of it, some billionaire has his company collapse, and he loses say $500 million, or all of it.  Where is he now?  He might never make up the profit in gains.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Temp430 on July 12, 2024, 11:47:17 AM
I'm pretty sure the average middle class person would tell you that the economy is not doing well. The middle class for the most part don't care what is happening on the stock exchanges.  They may have some funds in the stock market through a company retirement plan or such but they don't really plan on using those funds anytime soon.  What the middle class strongly feels is how interest rates and the cost of everything has gone up the last three years. Add to that all the woke, equity, and climate spending BS that does nothing for the middle class and the Biden administration bailing college kids out of their student loans...well, your gonna get a very pissed off middle class.  

And that doesn't even touch on all the other crap those running the nation have been up to such as the open border or non-enforcement of laws.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 11:55:03 AM
As noted, the folks in the middle and lower middle are generally very stressed about inflation.  It's obvious when their grocery bill goes up by a lot, and/or they have to stop buying hambuger and switch to hotdogs.

I once had to get by on a very limited income and those habits are still with me, I have to force myself at times to "splurge", but in Kroger, I'm looking for deals, and the day old meat section.

At least most folks are employed, it's something, if we hit a  bad recession that UE figure could top 10% easily enough, and inflation might still be a problem (usually not).

Then tax receipts drop hard, the stock market drops hard, people feel poor so even those with some money and a job cut back and the whole thing spirals down.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 12, 2024, 12:18:27 PM
I mean, I understand the mechanics of it.

I just don't agree that you can treat an unrealized gain the same as a realized gain.

I understand the energy behind the effort, trying to find some way to get the "rich" to pay "their share." 

But there are lot of reasons why past attempts like this, simply haven't worked out.
Oh, ok. I thought you were asking for an explanation of how it would work mechanically.

Fwiw: I wasn't advocating for it, I was just explaining how the mechanics would probably work.

I'll add some problems that would make it VERY difficult to implement:

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 12:19:49 PM
There is also an agument that the income tax amendment does not provide for such a tax, so it would be adjudicated for a while.

The apportionment clause.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 12, 2024, 12:32:52 PM
Also a $10M/year floor would be pretty manipulable too.  Let's say @utee94 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=15) owned a business that was worth $80M at the beginning of 2018 and the value grew by 10% per year.  Based on that, and using @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) 's $10M floor, his taxable unrealized gain per year would be: 
(https://i.imgur.com/3IXsdJP.png)

But if he had me doing his taxes we'd assert that the value grew by $10M/year instead of 10% per year.  This WOULDN"T be illegal because when I said "value grew by 10% per year", that is an ESTIMATE.  This isn't a publicly traded stock where the value is a known quantity, it is a privately held business where the value is an estimate and even an honest appraiser (assuming such a thing exists) would give you a range. So instead he would report:
(https://i.imgur.com/bZl10r1.png)
Viola, I just saved Utee the taxes on $9.5M in unrealized gains and the IRS would have a VERY difficult time disputing it because even at the end of 2024 the value I am reporting is within +/-4% of the "correct" value.  That would EASILY be within the range of the appraiser's estimate. 

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 12:34:11 PM
I think we'd see a lot of smaller companies going private.  Their value would be impossible to assess.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 12, 2024, 12:37:06 PM
I think we'd see a lot of smaller companies going private.  Their value would be impossible to assess.
True because when your stock price goes up you are stuck. The value is a known quantity and you HAVE to report it. If the company is private, the value is an estimate. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 12:42:01 PM
Even larger companies get taken private fairly often.  I suppose one could estimate a value based on reported sales and profit margins, but that gets a bit wonky too.

It would probably do wonders for the value of collectibles and precious metals also.  Real estate?  

Anyway, I don't think this is on the nearer term horizon anyway.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 12, 2024, 12:49:19 PM
I don't know why everyone is focusing on Bezos. He's not even the CEO any more. Not for the last 3 years.
Just a figurehead everyone knows as an example.  This is an instance where I don't take the time to type out that he's not the CEO anymore and blah blah blah.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 12, 2024, 12:53:44 PM
He's as good an example as any.  Even if he's no longer the CEO, he still owns almost a billion shares of Amazon, around 9% of the company, so any sort of "wealth tax" like the "unrealized gains tax" would still apply to those holdings, as well as whatever other holdings he has, which are probably quite a lot.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 12, 2024, 01:07:12 PM
If it was treated like Capital Gains/Losses are now you'd get a capped deduction that you could carry forward (or backward) for a set period of time.

Exapmle (ignoring @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) 's $10M floor):
You have $150k in unrealized capital gain in 2023 that you have to pay tax on.

You have a $250k unrealized capital loss in 2024. You can:
  • Carry $175k back to 2023 and file an amended 2023 return with $25k in unrealized LOSS instead of $150k in unrealized gain, then
  • Take a $25k deduction in 2024. You have now used up $200k of your $250k loss and you continue to carry it forward to either offset gains or take a $25k/year deduction.


This is how I have been doing it for years.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 12, 2024, 02:51:51 PM
  • This seems pretty simple if your assets are publicly traded stocks and it is. In that case you just add up shares, multiply by price and viola, value. It is SUBSTANTIALLY more complicated if you own a business or land or mineral rights or patents or basically anything that isn't publicly traded. Then you have to come up with valuations and those are inherently subjective.

Yeah, and then let's say, for example, that you're a real estate mogul. Would you not be incentivized to value your property at a certain [low] level for the tax man, but then perhaps value it at higher levels if you're trying to use it as collateral for loans or something? It's all subjective valuation until it is sold, right? 

Not that anyone would do such a thing, of course. That would be fraud. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on July 12, 2024, 04:01:56 PM
Any rule you put in would be worked around and massaged and become irrelevant because these people can buy lawyers and accountants that find and invent loopholes.

The people who least need every last cent are the only ones who get it.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on July 12, 2024, 04:09:47 PM
Yeah, and then let's say, for example, that you're a real estate mogul. Would you not be incentivized to value your property at a certain [low] level for the tax man, but then perhaps value it at higher levels if you're trying to use it as collateral for loans or something? It's all subjective valuation until it is sold, right?

Not that anyone would do such a thing, of course. That would be fraud.
Speaking as a banker- any real estate used as collateral and the loan will be evaluated by the bank.    Not the owner.   
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 12, 2024, 04:21:45 PM
Yeah, and then let's say, for example, that you're a real estate mogul. Would you not be incentivized to value your property at a certain [low] level for the tax man, but then perhaps value it at higher levels if you're trying to use it as collateral for loans or something? It's all subjective valuation until it is sold, right?

Not that anyone would do such a thing, of course. That would be fraud.
Oh please, it isn't "fraud" it is puffing.   

Besides:
Speaking as a banker- any real estate used as collateral and the loan will be evaluated by the bank.    Not the owner. 
Banks aren't trusting the owner's estimated value anyway.  

If you lied to the bank about income, that would be fraud but even there it would almost always be murkier than that.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 04:24:05 PM
Any rule you put in would be worked around and massaged and become irrelevant because these people can buy lawyers and accountants that find and invent loopholes.
Billionaires don't really need to "invent" loopholes.  They have very legal obvious means around paying income taxes.  Corporations can get rather creative.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 12, 2024, 04:29:22 PM
Imagine I inherited a million (after inheritance tax) in say 1980, and wisely put the entirety into Berkshire Hathaway A at that time at $305 per share.

It closed to day at almost $640,000 per share.  So, I started with a meager 3,300 shares (rounding).  I still have 3,300 shares, but their value is, well, a lot more, 2,100 times more.  So, I'm a billionaire, twice over.  How much tax did I pay on that?  Zero.  Nada.  No dividends.  No income.  Just a massive increase in wealth.

If I did the math right.


Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 12, 2024, 08:39:18 PM
I didn't inherit much
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Hawkinole on July 17, 2024, 12:46:07 AM
Wish I did the math right. I didn't.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 17, 2024, 04:12:11 PM
This is local so from a national perspective it is not necessarily representative but:

I just compiled a report of local income tax receipts for my city.  There is a big lag here because the City hires out collection so the City gets in July what the agency got in June.  There are three main components:

So first some backstory, history here:

The sustained growth from 2014-2023 is astounding and unprecedented.  The City has seen growth eight of the last ten years with only slight hiccups in 2015 and 2020 (COVID) and those were minor decreases.  Frankly, I think that is over and the economy is cooling significantly.  

One of the things I track is "ttm" collections.  This is a common thing in the financial world, bankers will all be familiar.  "ttm" stands for "trailing twelve months".  Using this serves multiple purposes including:
My local City's ttm income tax receipts peaked at just over $21M for April23-March24, then:
At this point ttm collections are only up a hair over 2%:
There are two problems with this:

Cratering growth rate:

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 17, 2024, 04:46:22 PM
The stock market likes where the economy is.  One can argue of course that it is wrong.  It'll be wrong at some point, if history is any guide.

I'm seeing the NASDAQ drop when the DJIA goes up, and then that reverses a day or so later quite often.  There is a reason for that.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on July 17, 2024, 07:20:05 PM
Consumer credit portfolios are deteriorating moderately quickly.  

This based on data I see in banking circles.  But it is public data.  

Personally, I think it is a mistake to correlate an improvement in the stock market to confidence in the economy.  

It may have more to do with hints that the Fed will lower the rates once before the end of the year   

It may also be related to people sensing a trump victory in November  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: longhorn320 on July 17, 2024, 07:38:12 PM
I got out of the market when Biden was elected and will return if Trump is elected.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 17, 2024, 07:46:56 PM
I have done great with Biden.  I remain nervous. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Hawkinole on July 18, 2024, 12:38:16 AM
I got out of the market when Biden was elected and will return if Trump is elected.
You must be really disappointed in your returns. At the 42-month of these administrations, S&P up:

Obama: 67%
Biden: 50.5%
Clinton 45.8%
Trump: 43.5%
Bush -19.5%

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 18, 2024, 06:45:18 AM
Consumer credit portfolios are deteriorating moderately quickly. 

This based on data I see in banking circles.  But it is public data. 

Personally, I think it is a mistake to correlate an improvement in the stock market to confidence in the economy. 

It may have more to do with hints that the Fed will lower the rates once before the end of the year 

It may also be related to people sensing a trump victory in November 
Bingo.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 18, 2024, 08:02:29 AM
I just noted that the stock market likes the economy, which won't be the case if the economy is currently in dire circumstances.  I agree the very recent moves are prompted by expected Fed actions.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 18, 2024, 08:35:58 AM
People with no money in the market beg could not care less.

People are choosing between medicine and food, struggling for shelter. Working two jobs to make ends meet. Stuff like that. It's real and I see it.

People who were doing fine 4 years ago are not doing fine right now.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 18, 2024, 08:39:04 AM
Over half of US HHs have some stock market participation, but many have little or none obviously.  I don't think the stock market can possibly be doing this well while the overall economy is in terrible shape, or even bad shape.  It can be bifurcated of course such that overall it's pretty sound while folks below the median are really struggling, and that could be close to what we have now.

Inflation is a tax that hits the poorer the hardest.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 18, 2024, 08:51:27 AM
Last week I was at CVS to pick up an Rx and the elderly lady in front of me was literally begging the pharmacist to give her a break. Her co-pay was $25.00, and I heard her say it was the medicine or dinner that week. She did not "look" poor to me. Just fixed income and now broke.

That's reality for many people right now.

Perspectives change when you witness things like this.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 18, 2024, 08:57:31 AM
Even in a superb economy, some folks will be struggling.  I certainly agree we have more than the usual number of folks struggling today, but it can be worse.  When the economy tanks, e'g', goes into recession, a lot of folks are out of work and the safety net is a bit sketchy for them.  They have to curtail "optional" spending which makes the recession worse.

I can recall 2008-09, things perceptibly slowed down.  Traffic was lighter, the malls were noticeably emptier (when we had malls), planes were emptier, etc.  I felt fortunate to be employed.  One of my neighbors lost his job, they were close to losing their home, he had two kids around the same age as mine.  He started a chaffeur company that ended up doing pretty well, I think.  

A recession is a pretty bad time for a whole lot of folks.  High inflation is a bad time for folks on limited, fixed incomes.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 18, 2024, 09:37:37 AM
I just noted that the stock market likes the economy, which won't be the case if the economy is currently in dire circumstances.  I agree the very recent moves are prompted by expected Fed actions. 
Note that the value of market indices can also be a product of inflation... The world's governments flooded everyone with fiscal stimulus. Some of that money caused the price of goods to rise. Some of that money caused housing prices to rise. Some of that money caused the price of the DJIA or Nasdaq indices to rise. 

It's more money, worth less in real terms, chasing a fixed number of goods. 

So while some of those stock market gains might be "real", some may also be distortions based on the inflation.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: NorthernOhioBuckeye on July 18, 2024, 09:39:26 AM
Note that the value of market indices can also be a product of inflation... The world's governments flooded everyone with fiscal stimulus. Some of that money caused the price of goods to rise. Some of that money caused housing prices to rise. Some of that money caused the price of the DJIA or Nasdaq indices to rise.

It's more money, worth less in real terms, chasing a fixed number of goods.

So while some of those stock market gains might be "real", some may also be distortions based on the inflation.
Ed Zackery
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 18, 2024, 09:43:16 AM
Staple foods are up significantly from 4 years ago, some of them over 100%.  Prescription drug prices are up as much as an average of 15% during the same time span.  For the top half that just means switching the vacation plans from Europe to Florida.  For the bottom half that means choosing between dinner and medicine.

These are not metrics of a strong economy.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 18, 2024, 09:48:24 AM
Staple foods are up significantly from 4 years ago, some of them over 100%.  Prescription drug prices are up as much as an average of 15% during the same time span.  For the top half that just means switching the vacation plans from Europe to Florida.  For the bottom half that means choosing between dinner and medicine.

These are not metrics of a strong economy.


Thank you.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 18, 2024, 10:02:52 AM
For the top half that just means switching the vacation plans from Europe to Florida.  For the bottom half that means choosing between dinner and medicine.
I did pretty well on Cedar Fair in the last recession.  For those unaware, Cedar Fair was an Amusement Park operator who initially owned Cedar Point (Big Amusement Park in Sandusky, OH) then acquired a bunch more and more recently merged with Six Flags.  

Anyway, when the recession tanked their Stock* plummeted because a lot of investors thought their offering was a luxury good that would take a big hit in the recession.  I assumed roughly what you said:
Sure, some people who planned pre-recession to go to Cedar Point will not be able to due to the recession but at the same time, some people who planned pre-recession to go to Disney will dial back their plans and go to Cedar Point instead.  

*Cedar Fair wasn't technically stock, they were a partnership so you bought shares of the partnership not shares of stock.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 18, 2024, 10:08:24 AM
Maybe what we all are saying is the current economy has bidurcated (or tri).  Those less well off and/or on fixed incomes are struggling to meet ends.  Those in the middle are cutting back, but managing OK by doing so, those nearer the top are doing pretty well.

A recession typically hurts those in the middle more than they are being harmed now, I think.  

My Dad once told me he didn't know there was a Great Depression as he lived through it, things were the same for him, poor.  He was born in 1917.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 18, 2024, 10:09:22 AM
I did pretty well on Cedar Fair in the last recession.  For those unaware, Cedar Fair was an Amusement Park operator who initially owned Cedar Point (Big Amusement Park in Sandusky, OH) then acquired a bunch more and more recently merged with Six Flags. 

Anyway, when the recession tanked their Stock* plummeted because a lot of investors thought their offering was a luxury good that would take a big hit in the recession.  I assumed roughly what you said:
  • Paris becomes Disney
  • Disney becomes Cedar Point
  • Cedar Point becomes a backyard water sprinkler. 
Sure, some people who planned pre-recession to go to Cedar Point will not be able to due to the recession but at the same time, some people who planned pre-recession to go to Disney will dial back their plans and go to Cedar Point instead. 

*Cedar Fair wasn't technically stock, they were a partnership so you bought shares of the partnership not shares of stock. 


Residential pool builders absolutely cleaned up during the pandemic.  What do you do when you have discretionary income and either aren't allowed to go anywhere, or nowhere you'd want to go, is actually open and operating?

If you gotta stay home, do it in style.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 18, 2024, 10:15:46 AM
Residential pool builders absolutely cleaned up during the pandemic.  What do you do when you have discretionary income and either aren't allowed to go anywhere, or nowhere you'd want to go, is actually open and operating?

If you gotta stay home, do it in style.
RV and boats too.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 18, 2024, 10:18:06 AM
golf courses
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 18, 2024, 10:21:49 AM
RV and boats too.
Yeah I bought our RV in 2018 for $24,000.  Our dealer was calling me back in 2020 and offering $28,000 or more.

Of course, then I'd have to pay even more to replace it, but for folks that owned RVs they never used, it would have been a good deal.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 18, 2024, 10:22:50 AM
Residential pool builders absolutely cleaned up during the pandemic.  What do you do when you have discretionary income and either aren't allowed to go anywhere, or nowhere you'd want to go, is actually open and operating?

If you gotta stay home, do it in style.
RV and boats too.
Hardware too and I totally missed all of those.  

We have a Hardware Wholesaler in our town and their business went BONKERS during the Pandemic.  I should have seen these things coming and didn't.  I was trying to pick healthcare/medical stocks.  I should have known better.  Years ago my dad told me:

"If you read it on the front page of the business section, everybody in the market already knows it."  

My lesson for the next recession/pandemic/calamity:
Try to figure out the second-order results and invest in those, ie:

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 18, 2024, 10:50:58 AM
golf courses
Yep. Not only did COVID bring a lot of new people into the game because it was one of the few things you could do, it brought a lot of people (like me) back to the game that had been gone a while. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 18, 2024, 10:52:40 AM
my muni course had it's best year ever financially

which was great because then prices didn't go up this spring or last spring
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on July 18, 2024, 11:00:49 AM
my muni course had it's best year ever financially

which was great because then prices didn't go up this spring or last spring
Prices have been going up around here. Part of it IMHO is just California. Everything's going up. 

The other part is that there simply aren't a lot of affordable courses in Orange County, so tee sheets are 100% full from dawn until super-twilight. So to an extent they know they can raise prices without seeing any drop in demand. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 18, 2024, 11:15:40 AM
Golf is half price or less in the summer here than it is in the winter. On our course you can play 9 holes late in the day for <$10, including cart, if you can handle the heat.

Less people around -> better deals.

Restaurants too.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Hawkinole on July 19, 2024, 02:15:56 AM
Economy overall seems very healthy. I would like to see lower interest rates. I think those rates are in the cards to come. 

In NE Iowa the economy seems very healthy. Unemployment rate is well below full employment level. We have a demand for outside manufacturing workers, especially welding workers, that are not available, here. Since I am in a rural area, farm workers are also too scarce.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Temp430 on July 19, 2024, 07:24:16 AM
The economy is booming.  There's no inflation, the higher prices you see for everything ain't due to the cost of stuff going up.  Rather, your money is worth less.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 19, 2024, 07:42:15 AM
unemployment rate Iowa 2.8%

Nebraska - 2.5%

South Dakota - 2%

____________________________

send those hard working dreamers up to snow country
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on July 19, 2024, 07:48:14 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/giu1rSd.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on July 19, 2024, 08:30:51 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/giu1rSd.png)
Not too bad. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 19, 2024, 08:35:23 AM
Rural states have low UE mostly.  Even urban states have moderate UE relative to the 5% figure some say is "normal".
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 19, 2024, 09:50:00 AM
If unemployment were the only metric for the economy, we'd be doing okay.

Curse you pesky inflation!
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 19, 2024, 09:50:48 AM
we'd be doing GREAT
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 19, 2024, 09:53:07 AM
Reported inflation NOW is in pretty good shape also.  It's the price jump in the past that still hurts.  And that won't change.

Nearly all the reported economic metrics look solid, UE, current inflation, GDP growth, not so great is median real HH income growth.  Folks have forgotten what inflation was liked in the early Reagan years.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on July 19, 2024, 09:53:17 AM
If unemployment were the only metric for the economy, we'd be doing okay.

Curse you pesky inflation!
And credit usage.   And savings levels.  And credit performance.   And business investment.    And consumer spending.  And consumer confidence.  
I could go on.  

the basic trends are not good.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on July 19, 2024, 09:54:50 AM
Reported inflation NOW is in pretty good shape also.  It's the price jump in the past that still hurts.  And that won't change.

Yes, of course.  This is the point several of us have been making for the past dozen pages or so.

When staple food items are up as much as 100% over 4 years, it doesn't really matter that inflation is only mild within the past year.  There's never been a chance to catch up.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on July 19, 2024, 10:04:21 AM
Reported inflation NOW is in pretty good shape also.  It's the price jump in the past that still hurts.  And that won't change.

Nearly all the reported economic metrics look solid, UE, current inflation, GDP growth, not so great is median real HH income growth.  Folks have forgotten what inflation was liked in the early Reagan years.
Income is kind of the thing though isn't it?


[color=var(--YLNNHc)]The unemployment rate rose from 7% in 1980 to 11% in 1982, then declined to 5% in 1988. The inflation rate declined from 10% in 1980 to 4% in 1988. Some economists have stated that Reagan's policies were an important part of bringing about the third longest peacetime economic expansion in U.S. history.

 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics#:~:text=The unemployment rate rose from,economic expansion in U.S. history.)
Reaganomics - Wikipedia
 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics#:~:text=The unemployment rate rose from,economic expansion in U.S. history.)

Wikipedia

 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaganomics#:~:text=The unemployment rate rose from,economic expansion in U.S. history.)





[/font][/size][/color]




Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 19, 2024, 10:17:00 AM
I view real median HH income as the most important metric out there.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on July 20, 2024, 12:48:13 AM
And credit usage.  And savings levels.  And credit performance.  And business investment.    And consumer spending.  And consumer confidence. 
I could go on. 

the basic trends are not good. 
Yep.
Those of us that follow these metrics regularly are worried. 

That said, there is an old joke that most economists have predicted 8 of the last 3 recessions so . . .
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 20, 2024, 07:58:03 AM
or 24 of the last 2
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on July 20, 2024, 08:05:00 AM
It seems apparent a lot of Americans think the economy is in bad shape.  No doubt their personal situation influences this more than reported data, and their political leanings will also influence this.  I was curious how folks here view it, most think "OK shape with worrisome signs".

The various signs folks have noted are quite worrisome.  

I have in my past become so worried about the "signs" that I sold off my rather modest stock portfolio, and then watched as the stocks went higher for years.  I was rather lucky in 1998, I had been saving $100 a month for some years as a downpayment on a new van.  It reached the point I could buy a new nicer van, and did.  The old one had reached 155,000 miles.  The market of course turned south about two years later, but I rather liked the new van, it got the same gas mileage, was larger and more powerful by a good measure.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on July 20, 2024, 08:31:59 AM
It seems apparent a lot of Americans think the economy is in bad shape.  No doubt their personal situation influences this more than reported data, and their political leanings will also influence this.  I was curious how folks here view it, most think "OK shape with worrisome signs".

This is constant - doom & gloom - woe is me
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 02, 2024, 10:09:18 AM
Starting to fray a bit?  More than a bit?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MarqHusker on August 02, 2024, 10:11:38 AM
Dr. Doom announced he's launching his first ETF.    He must really be bearish now.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 02, 2024, 10:16:57 AM
I make considerable effort to avoid being bearish or bullish, and stick to "The Plan".  It's not easy.

Any time I think about timing a sale, I remind myself it's an amateurish mistake, usually.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on August 02, 2024, 10:20:40 AM
Negative waves Moriarity,always with the negative waves
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 02, 2024, 10:22:04 AM
Intel share plunge drags down global chip stocks from TSMC to Samsung (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/intel-share-plunge-drags-down-global-chip-stocks-from-tsmc-to-samsung.html)

Layoffs?  Who could have foreseen this???
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: SuperMario on August 02, 2024, 09:04:18 PM
And credit usage.  And savings levels.  And credit performance.  And business investment.    And consumer spending.  And consumer confidence. 
I could go on. 

the basic trends are not good. 
Couldn’t agree with this more. I don’t think most people grasp the reality of the underlying giant red flags of the mess to come. Jobs reports consistently revised downward the following months, with bulk of the jobs coming in healthcare and government jobs. insurance costs skyrocketing because of the lag at properly assessing inflation, avg auto loan up over $700, property taxes escalating in so many places. 

what has kept everything afloat has been the ease to access credit. Many consumers staying afloat by accessing more and more credit with creditors approving everything under the sun. As the reality starts to hit, companies will tighten budgets, unemployment will rise and credit markets will tighten. Call it gloom and doom. I call it looking at the data and seeing the inevitable on its way.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 02, 2024, 11:15:30 PM
Intel share plunge drags down global chip stocks from TSMC to Samsung (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/intel-share-plunge-drags-down-global-chip-stocks-from-tsmc-to-samsung.html)

Layoffs?  Who could have foreseen this???

Who indeed?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 03, 2024, 07:15:59 AM
Obviously, IF the economy noticeably drops off, the election outcome will be impacted (duh!).

I can't tell if this is the start of a noticeable drop or just a blip.  But a lot of signs are signaling he former.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 03, 2024, 07:40:32 AM
guess I should keep my job for a while
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 03, 2024, 07:44:16 AM
Was happy to be able to sell of a bunch of company stock at the start of the week. It behaved a bit unusually for the weeks when I’m allowed to sell, but ultimately ended up where I expected.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 03, 2024, 07:48:15 AM
I can tell you the economy is about to crash because my oldest is about to go to college and her college fund is in the stock market
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 03, 2024, 08:26:05 AM
Any money I think I will need in the next five years is in "cash equivalents", not the market.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 03, 2024, 08:29:43 AM
I could say that if I work another 4 years
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 03, 2024, 09:45:55 AM
Took a beating in the market this week.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MarqHusker on August 03, 2024, 11:19:54 AM
Dry powder!   

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 03, 2024, 12:58:08 PM
My IRA topped a mark, a round number, I never thought I would see just last week, and I mentioned to the wife I should sell it all and put the money into CDs and be done with it.  Of course, I didn't.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 03, 2024, 02:13:40 PM
My IRA topped a mark, a round number, I never thought I would see just last week, and I mentioned to the wife I should sell it all and put the money into CDs and be done with it.  Of course, I didn't.
It's ok CD. I'm sure you're good with $999,999,999. Don't need the B in the number to survive. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 03, 2024, 02:18:45 PM
We can probably scrape by for a while yet.

My wife paid for lunch today.

I had Nook Style Migas, which was ... interesting.

(https://i.imgur.com/tCAXNK5.jpeg)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 03, 2024, 02:21:43 PM
My wife's pension is the equivalent of having about $2.5 million in a shoebox (today), not gaining any interest and no COLA attached to it. So, I don't really know what it's "worth" in 20 years.

The good news is it's fully funded (actually 125 percent) so Baxter Healthcare has done a nice job.

About 3 years after she started, they stopped pensions. Not a lot of people on the program anymore.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 03, 2024, 02:22:44 PM
Very similar to my breakfast- City Coincil


(https://i.imgur.com/mCDCBz4.jpeg)With 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MarqHusker on August 03, 2024, 04:47:30 PM
my prior employer had a pension (which i did fully vest in before we were spun off)   it does have modest adjustments,  i basically look at it as a funding source for my future utility bills and other overhead.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 04, 2024, 12:47:47 PM

It's ok CD. I'm sure you're good with $999,999,999. Don't need the B in the number to survive.
Tres Commas

my prior employer had a pension (which i did fully vest in before we were spun off)  it does have modest adjustments,  i basically look at it as a funding source for my future utility bills and other overhead.

I've never had a pension.  Between my various jobs, I currently have an IRA, and two 401K plans.  I've been investing what I could since I was 22, they're doing pretty well over the decades, I can't complain.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Gigem on August 05, 2024, 07:36:47 AM
I’ve mentioned this in other threads. I started with a pension and 401k. They stopped the pension for me last year. Now, it will only accrue, not grow. They did increase what they match in our 401k. Problem is that they only recently started to match 401 to what you made on overtime and bonuses. My pay had far exceeded my salary due to OT every year I’ve been with the company, sometimes by double. 

Yes, I worked a lot of hours. 

Now that I’m salary I missed that window. So I get screwed both ways. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 05, 2024, 07:45:36 AM
Another bad day on Wall Street according to the futures.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 05, 2024, 07:52:34 AM
Before I retired, I interviewed about five "money managers".  One claimed his wife worked where I did and he understood their retirement plan (which is unusual).  He didn't  have a clue.  Another one had no clue either, which I found remarkable in a city as smallish as Cincinnati with some major corporations on board.  I finally found one I liked.  My direct contact had worked with the huge bank that "administers" our retirement plan.  When I went to get my money out and into an IRA self administered, they mailed me about 80 pages of tripe.  (They first wanted to charge me $86 to mail the stuff "express".)  I met with my manager dude, and he started throwing out pages and pages of the crap they mailed me.  He said a normal person gets all this and starts to read through it all, and gets tired and puts it off.  Every day they delay is another $$$$ for the huge bank.  He got it down to four pages, which were where I had to sign.  He filled out the "transfer to" parts (to my IRA with Schwab).  It worked, but then, because I retired after a part year of "benefits", I got another tranche and we repeated the process.  It was worth the 0.9% I was paying them to sift through the BS.

So, then I watched how they invested, and asked a LOT of questions.  My contact person liked questions and was patient with me explaining this and that.  After three years, I told him I got it and could manage myself, thanks a ton.

As an employee, I was locked into their plan of course with few options, as soon as I retired, I got out of all that company stock I was saddled with, good thing too.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 05, 2024, 09:35:08 AM
https://www.wsj.com/finance/stocks/japan-stocks-fall-sharply-after-weak-u-s-jobs-data-yen-strengthening-3903689f?st=jxuthqq82kr5d3l&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 05, 2024, 09:40:03 AM
I couldn't logon to my account just now, heavy traffic I suppose.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 05, 2024, 09:50:13 AM
Couldn’t agree with this more. I don’t think most people grasp the reality of the underlying giant red flags of the mess to come. Jobs reports consistently revised downward the following months, with bulk of the jobs coming in healthcare and government jobs. insurance costs skyrocketing because of the lag at properly assessing inflation, avg auto loan up over $700, property taxes escalating in so many places.

what has kept everything afloat has been the ease to access credit. Many consumers staying afloat by accessing more and more credit with creditors approving everything under the sun. As the reality starts to hit, companies will tighten budgets, unemployment will rise and credit markets will tighten. Call it gloom and doom. I call it looking at the data and seeing the inevitable on its way.
The credit issue is ominous in several ways;

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 05, 2024, 09:50:18 AM
Recession: What is the Sahm rule and why is everyone talking about it (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/05/recession-what-is-the-sahm-rule-and-why-is-everyone-talking-about-it.html)

Global stock markets are in the grip of a deepening rout (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/04/stock-market-today-live-updates.html), prompting investors to turn to one of the most historically accurate indicators to determine whether the U.S. economy is in recession.
The so-called “Sahm rule (https://www.cnbc.com/2023/11/13/kelly-evans-the-recession-rules-are-close-to-being-triggered.html)” has observed without fail that the initial phase of a recession has started when the three-month moving average of the U.S. unemployment rate is at least a half a percentage point higher than the 12-month low.

The time-tested indicator, which is widely recognized for its simplicity and ability to quickly reflect the onset of a recession, was named after economist Claudia Sahm when it was first introduced as part of a policy proposal in 2019.
A weaker-than-expected July jobs report (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/heres-where-the-jobs-are-for-july-in-one-chart.html) on Friday officially triggered (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/kelly-evans-the-first-cut-is-the-deepest.html) the Sahm rule. The data led investors to worry that the Federal Reserve may be behind the curve in cutting interest rates to fend off a recession.
The rule’s inventor, however, is not convinced.
“We are not in a recession now — contrary the historical signal from the Sahm rule — but the momentum is in that direction,” Sahm told CNBC by email on Friday. “A recession is not inevitable and there is substantial scope to reduce interest rates.”


Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 05, 2024, 09:56:46 AM
My IRA topped a mark, a round number, I never thought I would see just last week, and I mentioned to the wife I should sell it all and put the money into CDs and be done with it.  Of course, I didn't.
One thing your Financial Advisor *SHOULD* tell you is to consider the horizon on your investments. 

What I mean is this:
Upthread @MaximumSam (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1572) mentioned having a kids college fund for a kid about to start college. That I probably would want in T-bills or CD's (cash equivalents) because all of it is needed within 4-6 years so there isn't enough time to ride out a stock market drop.

An IRA, 401k, or other retirement account is different. Even if you are already withdrawing from it, your horizon is still almost always longer than 4-6 years. Your horizon is your remaining lifespan or yours AND your wife's. Even if you are 80+ your actuarial lifespan is probably more than 4-6 years.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 05, 2024, 10:02:07 AM
The FED really screwed up by holding the rate in its last meeting.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 05, 2024, 10:19:23 AM
My wife's pension is the equivalent of having about $2.5 million in a shoebox (today), not gaining any interest and no COLA attached to it. So, I don't really know what it's "worth" in 20 years.

The good news is it's fully funded (actually 125 percent) so Baxter Healthcare has done a nice job.

About 3 years after she started, they stopped pensions. Not a lot of people on the program anymore.
Some days I wouldn't wish my headaches on anyone but . . .

Rental property is a great inflation hedge that you might want to consider. I'll explain the reason:
Say you buy a duplex for $350,000. Typically you put 25% ($87,500) down and borrow 75% ($262,500). At today's rates (30 fixed, 7.54%) your monthly payment is ~$1,850. 

Now say you rent the units for $1,700/mo each. That is $3,400 in monthly rent but figure 95% occupancy (roughly one moth vacant every two years per unit) so your average monthly gross is ~$3,230. Your mortgage payment of $1,850 chews up the bulk of that (57%) leaving you with ~$1,400/mo for insurance, taxes, repairs, etc. You'll roughly break even.

Breaking even may not sound enticing but the break-even is a cash measurement. There are two other benefits:
Here is where inflation comes in and why rental property is a great inflation hedge:

Suppose prices double. 

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 05, 2024, 10:20:48 AM
The FED really screwed up by holding the rate in its last meeting.
I don’t blame them.  

you got to pay the piper for what has been going on.   You can’t print and spend money forever and not have consequences.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 05, 2024, 10:24:51 AM
I don’t blame them. 

you got to pay the piper for what has been going on.  You can’t print and spend money forever and not have consequences. 
I agree, of course. Some of the bleeding needs to stop.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 05, 2024, 10:39:33 AM
Rental property is a great inflation hedge that you might want to consider. I'll explain the reason:

I also look at it as one of the few ways that ordinary people can use other peoples' money (OPM) to build their own wealth. 

You need a certain floor to get there, but once you have the foot in the door, you use the bank's money to buy the property and then use your tenant's money to pay off the mortgage. Even if you're only break-even from an annual cash flow perspective, you're the one who ends up with the expensive asset (property) at the end of the process. Even if you start out mildly below break-even, rising rents in most places will ensure that after a few short years, you're break even or even cash flow positive. As long as you have the cushion to cover it, it's still fine to start below break even. 

They say that real estate is a poor asset compared to inflation in general. However, if you're using OPM to buy it, that's not a bad thing. You can use OPM to buy real estate. You can't [easily] use OPM to invest in the stock market. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 05, 2024, 11:04:28 AM
I also look at it as one of the few ways that ordinary people can use other peoples' money (OPM) to build their own wealth.

You need a certain floor to get there, but once you have the foot in the door, you use the bank's money to buy the property and then use your tenant's money to pay off the mortgage. Even if you're only break-even from an annual cash flow perspective, you're the one who ends up with the expensive asset (property) at the end of the process. Even if you start out mildly below break-even, rising rents in most places will ensure that after a few short years, you're break even or even cash flow positive. As long as you have the cushion to cover it, it's still fine to start below break even.

They say that real estate is a poor asset compared to inflation in general. However, if you're using OPM to buy it, that's not a bad thing. You can use OPM to buy real estate. You can't [easily] use OPM to invest in the stock market.
Exactly!

Here is a more detailed 10-year example of of the example I used for @847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) above.  Here I have assumed 7.2% annual inflation which roughly halves the value of money in 10 years (rule of 72):
(https://i.imgur.com/6zX0JNm.png)

By the time you reach year 10 you are making almost $19k/yr in cash but only paying tax on $14k due to depreciation and your equity is up by $386k on an investment of just $87,500.  

Sensitivity analysis, what if there was no inflation?
(https://i.imgur.com/oO1OeRa.png)
It is still not a terrible investment.  You are losing a small amount of money per year but you are EASILY making that back in tax savings by showing a tax loss every year.  Over the 10 years with no inflation you lose $1,516 but take a tax loss of $62.5k and pay the loan down by $34.5k.  At this point you could re-finance and either:

Sensitivity analysis, what if inflation is 10% instead of 7.2%?
(https://i.imgur.com/6eBlRfy.png)
Now at the 10-year mark you've made almost $128k in cash and only paid tax on about half of it due to depreciation.  The value of your property has also increased to over $900k and your $228k remaining mortgage is just 25% of that so you can borrow an additional $453k if you want to.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 05, 2024, 11:07:13 AM
Best decision we ever made was to keep our starter house and use it as a rental, when we bought our new house, 12 years ago.

I'll be honest we were stretched very thin for a few years and really could have used cash from the sale to cover the new house, but we scrapped through it, and now 12 years later it's not even a thing. 

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 05, 2024, 11:09:02 AM
Best decision we ever made was to keep out starter house and use it as a rental, when we bought our new house, 12 years ago.

I'll be honest we were stretched thin for a few years and really could have used cash from the sale to cover the new house, but we scrapped through it, and now 12 years later it's not even a thing. 
It is a pretty solid decision without inflation. Inflation makes it ingenious. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 05, 2024, 11:14:06 AM
I don't want the landlord headaches at this point in my life.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 05, 2024, 11:22:41 AM
I don't want the landlord headaches at this point in my life.
I can understand that. I started my comment on it by saying that some days I wouldn't wish my headaches on anyone. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 05, 2024, 11:28:01 AM
I'm lucky enough that after we partnered up with my FIL on some other properties, he now manages all of them.  The first few years of managing our own rental though, weren't a lot of fun, no doubt.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 05, 2024, 11:40:27 AM
I'm lucky enough that after we partnered up with my FIL on some other properties, he now manages all of them.  The first few years of managing our own rental though, weren't a lot of fun, no doubt.
The strange thing about the rental business is that the business/profitability ratio are inverted.  

In most businesses the busier you are the more money you are making.  In the rental business when I'm busy I'm losing money.  When I'm not busy, I'm making money.  

This month I'm losing money and busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 05, 2024, 12:39:53 PM
The strange thing about the rental business is that the business/profitability ratio are inverted. 

In most businesses the busier you are the more money you are making.  In the rental business when I'm busy I'm losing money.  When I'm not busy, I'm making money. 

This month I'm losing money and busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest. 
So true.

"Passive" income isn't passive when you're busting your tail for it.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 05, 2024, 12:53:13 PM
The Fed is trying to 'fight a ghost' as recession fears mount, investor says (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/the-fed-is-trying-to-fight-a-ghost-as-recession-fears-mount-investor-says/ar-AA1ofWpu?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=7185d88ec509482bac0e2b9fa98f68d7&ei=18)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 05, 2024, 12:56:16 PM
The Fed is trying to 'fight a ghost' as recession fears mount, investor says (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/the-fed-is-trying-to-fight-a-ghost-as-recession-fears-mount-investor-says/ar-AA1ofWpu?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=7185d88ec509482bac0e2b9fa98f68d7&ei=18)
I think it's dangerous to think of this as a "ghost."  The implication is that it's irrational, that there's actually no basis for an expectation of recession, but that's just not true at all.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 05, 2024, 12:57:40 PM
https://www.wsj.com/finance/stocks/is-this-1987-all-over-again-whats-driving-the-market-meltdown-4d107126?st=um5cr5paypsmue9&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Gigem on August 05, 2024, 01:11:22 PM
We own and manage some rentals.  So true about being busy.  I just had a tenant move out after ~5 years.  House completely trashed, needs major work.  Probably 15k for repairs and a trash-out.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 05, 2024, 01:12:48 PM
I finally was able to log in to my account, man that was ugly, not lilke getting laid off ugly, but ugly.

I never bought any of this VIX thing, I never did find a useful explanation of it.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Riffraft on August 05, 2024, 01:18:13 PM
I don't want the landlord headaches at this point in my life.
Hire a management company which a ceiling for spending on the unit and let them handle the regular headaches.  Worth the relatively low cost. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 05, 2024, 01:52:00 PM
'Don't panic': What to do when the stock market sinks like a stone (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/don-t-panic-what-to-do-when-the-stock-market-sinks-like-a-stone/ar-AA1ogSeb?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=3e6d52a091064d57840050b1a4db4087&ei=14)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 05, 2024, 02:03:58 PM
Buy low, sell high.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 05, 2024, 02:21:47 PM
Buy low, sell high.
It's easier to be wrong twice than it is to be right twice.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 05, 2024, 02:50:16 PM
It's easier to be wrong twice than it is to be right twice.
The lessons of marriage, amirite?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 05, 2024, 03:41:16 PM
Hire a management company which a ceiling for spending on the unit and let them handle the regular headaches.  Worth the relatively low cost.
When I was growing up we were the management company.  My dad took care of a few of his own and a LOT for other people.  Over time he was able to acquire more and more of his own.  I started helping almost before I could talk.  Dad would be under a sink or something working on something and he'd say "Medinabuckeye1, bring me a basin wrench".  So I guess the first thing I learned was tool identification.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 05, 2024, 03:44:16 PM
I learned to identify my tool at a very young age.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on August 05, 2024, 03:57:27 PM
I started helping almost before I could talk.  Dad would be under a sink or something working on something and he'd say "Medinabuckeye1, bring me a basin wrench".  "Medinabuckeye1, bring me a Budweiser"
FIFY - forgot the important part
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on August 05, 2024, 04:00:32 PM
It's easier to be wrong twice than it is to be right twice.
The lessons of marriage, amirite?
Thought my oldest Brother was the only one nuts enough to get married 4X. Actually 5X but married number 3 twice
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 05, 2024, 04:20:30 PM
When I was growing up we were the management company.  My dad took care of a few of his own and a LOT for other people.  Over time he was able to acquire more and more of his own.  I started helping almost before I could talk.  Dad would be under a sink or something working on something and he'd say "Medinabuckeye1, bring me a basin wrench".  So I guess the first thing I learned was tool identification. 
And yet you turned down a promising career in urology
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 06, 2024, 12:08:36 PM
So, VIX. Huh.

(https://i.imgur.com/phBre7v.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 06, 2024, 12:13:23 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/PEZpabe.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: SuperMario on August 06, 2024, 01:45:21 PM
Enjoy the coming months. 

(https://i.imgur.com/GhQuCij.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 06, 2024, 01:46:20 PM
Gonna be very choppy until probably December 1 or so.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 06, 2024, 01:47:45 PM
I heard one wag say decades ago, "We're in for a period of increasing uncertainty."

I thought, well, OK then.  Word Saladesque.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 06, 2024, 04:42:24 PM
I'm actually surprised this type of down - up - down fluctuation doesn't happen MUCH more often

a few big players (Koch Brothers) or whoever start a big sale and encourage panick selling only to buy it all back and more at the cheaper price a few days or weeks later

only to continue to do that over and over and over
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 06, 2024, 05:45:17 PM
The Koch bros are small potatoes compared to Blackrock.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 06, 2024, 10:00:31 PM
well, whoever the big taters are
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 07, 2024, 07:04:19 AM
I'm actually surprised this type of down - up - down fluctuation doesn't happen MUCH more often
The market is so huge it's very difficult to influence a major part of it in this way.  One factor is all the algorithms "traders" use that fire buys and sells in microseconds.  This is one reason the market can react as it did the past couple of days, major downs usually, not so often ups without news.  There supposedly are circuit breakers now after the day crash of 1987.  
And of course, once a major player starts selling some specific stock, the price inherently drops quickly, and they may end up selling on the way down, and then buying on the way back up becomes a zero sum game.  There isn't all that much stock available near asking price.  I think manipulation happens, but it's with the algorithms and it's in the fractions of fractions.  

For example, there are "carry trades" where outfits borrow currency from a country with low interest rates and buy a short term bond fund from a country with higher interest rates, the spread may be a percent or two, but it's real money if it works and you can cover the vigs.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 07, 2024, 07:43:01 AM
1 or less % is fine, if you have volume
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 07, 2024, 07:45:09 AM
Volume, and turnover rates.  You might be making 0.5% every week.  It adds up.

The odd thing, to me, is that managed funds over time do worse than market averages with very very few exceptions.    Some do well in a year or three and then track back to average.  This is why ETFs have become so popular, along with low fees.  You'd think a managed fund by "professionals" would do better, but largely they do not.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 07, 2024, 08:11:53 AM
Volume, and turnover rates.  You might be making 0.5% every week.  It adds up.

The odd thing, to me, is that managed funds over time do worse than market averages with very very few exceptions.    Some do well in a year or three and then track back to average.  This is why ETFs have become so popular, along with low fees.  You'd think a managed fund by "professionals" would do better, but largely they do not.
They don't because all those professionals are up against . . .

Other professionals. 

Also, the reason they tend to track back to market is because the managers index the fund after a good year. Example:

Let's say I manage the Medinabuckeye1 fund and in year #1 I beat the S&P by 10%. The safe play for me is to then match the fund's holdings to the S&P and I'll thus match the S&P each year after. However, my year #1 was better so my 5-year and 10-year returns will stay ahead of the benchmark for five and 10 years respectively. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 07, 2024, 08:35:38 AM
The main reason I'd pay some professional one percent is to get one percent extra return, versus buying an ETF and paying a tenth of a percent.

I think I own one mutual fund that is managed because it hold stocks in Europe, for some diversity.

Since I retired and took over my own IRA, I've beaten the market pretty handily over ten years, maybe a couple were even.  But I had some very lucky picks, I know that.

A small "fund" can be heavily influenced by a couple lucky picks, in my case, Apple and Costco, neither of which my previous "pro" wanted to buy.

We don't pay managers of elite sports teams to be average for very long, maybe the White Sox might.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Hawkinole on August 08, 2024, 12:27:06 AM
We don't pay managers of elite sports teams to be average for very long, maybe the White Sox might.
The White Sox actually have a paid general manager, but I don't know why. They could have paid me $75k and I would gladly outperform him due to my love and affection for the culture of the White Sox, and would have done much better. I knew coming into this season that the new GM hadn't done a thing.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 08, 2024, 01:50:35 PM
This is good.

https://www.wsj.com/economy/housing/mortgage-rates-drop-to-15-month-low-e744aa2c?st=pjabbqhrmh8vjt1&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Hawkinole on August 09, 2024, 12:49:36 AM
The Fed really must act at its next meeting. The Aug. 8 unemployment claims report was better than expected, so the sky hasn't fallen yet. It is drifting lower. The latest inflation report was -.1% for June, as released July 11. We will get another read, in a few days. 
Locally, gasoline prices are volatile ranging from 3.23, to 3.59 (today) in the past 10-days.
That said, when the Fed's goal is 2% inflation per year, and when the recent inflation #s are < 0%, the Fed must consider today's data, and place less emphasis on a yearly average. I don't blame them too much for waiting, but perhaps there should be monthly meetings, not every six-weeks meetings. A lot can happen in a month.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 09, 2024, 08:24:12 AM
They can have emergency meetings if they deem one needed.  I don't think we're there at this point.  The stock market seems to be shaking off the declines and recovering a bit.  (Futures are down slightly at the moment, not enough to be real.)

Oil prices are a decent indicator also, I think, and while they have declined a bit, they also appear to have stabilized and moved up a bit.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 09, 2024, 03:51:09 PM
I continue to read about layoffs every day, in so many industries.


Layoffs coming to Stellantis Warren plant as Ram 1500 Classic production ends (detroitnews.com) (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2024/08/09/layoffs-stellantis-warren-ram-1500-classic-production-ends/74737898007/)

Tech giants, media companies downsizing their workforces  (businessreport.com) (https://www.businessreport.com/article/tech-giants-media-companies-downsizing-their-workforces)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 09, 2024, 04:22:29 PM
I continue to read about layoffs every day, in so many industries.
Layoffs coming to Stellantis Warren plant as Ram 1500 Classic production ends (detroitnews.com) (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/chrysler/2024/08/09/layoffs-stellantis-warren-ram-1500-classic-production-ends/74737898007/)

Tech giants, media companies downsizing their workforces  (businessreport.com) (https://www.businessreport.com/article/tech-giants-media-companies-downsizing-their-workforces)
IMHO, this is the key wildcard in the POTUS election this fall.  

As per usual in politics, the key issue is perception not reality.  Does the electorate perceive that we are entering a recession or will they perceive that we are in a recession when they vote?  

One thing that changes the equation is early voting.  20-some years ago nearly everyone voted on election day which this year is Tuesday, November 5.  In Ohio early voting starts four weeks ahead of the date of the election so Tuesday, October 8.  That could be a really big deal that could cut either way.  Suppose that the economy continues to slow down, early voting presumably helps the Democrats because it will be not as bad when voting starts as it is on election day.  OTOH, suppose that the economy starts perking up in mid-to-late September.  In that case early voting would presumably help Republicans because perception typically lags reality so by the time people realize that the slowdown has reversed, a lot of them will have already voted.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 09, 2024, 09:02:48 PM
As per usual in politics, the key issue is perception not reality.  Does the electorate perceive that we are entering a recession or will they perceive that we are in a recession when they vote? 

does the electorate ever deviate from the people's vote?
I understand that they could
and understand Trump may have asked them to deviate 4 years ago
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 10, 2024, 09:44:30 AM
Most of us have lived through inflation periods higher than today's, and we're more used to it, but it has been so lowish for so long, we forget a bit, and younger folks are stunned.  It's a "new thing" for them.  They see prices jump and it's out of their experience base.

I recall reading a book advising folks to "invest" in canned goods, etc., because they'd be more expensive later, and you'd be getting a ~12% return on your investment.

I know a lot of folks are just struggling to buy what they need after cutting back a lot, and they don't like it, no matter what the stock market does or what government figures are claiming.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 10, 2024, 11:14:10 AM
I don't recall ever seeing the price of staple foods increase by 100% over a 2-4 year span.  I don't remember the stagflation of the 70s very well but it certainly hasn't happened in my adult lifetime.  The current food and medicine crisis is not "ordinary" by any means.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 10, 2024, 11:20:03 AM
I personally have not seen a 100% price increase in any food items.  I'm going by the government inflation reports.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 10, 2024, 11:24:09 AM
I personally have not seen a 100% price increase in any food items.  I'm going by the government inflation reports.

I've already linked it several times, if you've chosen not to read it that's your choice but it doesn't change the facts.

Personally off the top of my head I can cite eggs, over 100% in 4 years easy.  Historically one of the cheapest and most effective sources of protein, especially for the poorest segments of our population.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 10, 2024, 11:28:11 AM
I'm just related my personal experience, which is anecdotal.  I understand maybe some items I rarely purchase have shot up in price, usually that's a case of some special event like "bird flu" or somesuch.  Eggs here are not double what they were in 2020.

Ground beef has gone from ~$5-6 to ~$7 or so, 80/20 grade, I usually get it on sale.  I would agree some specific items have increased 50% in my experience.  Some have not, more like 15% or so.

Milk has gone up, we don't buy it often, maybe $1.50 to $2.30 for 2 qts.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 10, 2024, 11:32:46 AM
4 years ago, 80-20 ground beef was $3.99 here. Now it's $7.99.

(https://i.imgur.com/lCmmB6v.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 10, 2024, 11:36:42 AM
Yeah I have no idea where CD is shopping but I sure wish I had access to it here.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 10, 2024, 11:40:49 AM
We shop at the local Kroger, and Costco.  This 100% thing is simply not what I personally have experienced.

I know the steelhead trout at Costco is the same price it's always been, not that Costco is a particularly good reference.  The coffee I buy used to be $10, now it's $13, Columbian 3 pound cans, Kirkland.  Vegetables are about the same price overall here, up some no doubt, same with fruit.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: longhorn320 on August 10, 2024, 11:41:59 AM
Yeah I have no idea where CD is shopping but I sure wish I had access to it here.
CD is one of the beautiful people

He doesnt shop

He just dines at the local sidewalk cafe

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 10, 2024, 11:44:58 AM
I shop personally at Kroger once a week or so.  We go to Costco once a month or so.  A few days ago, I bought a large package of chicken legs for $5 at Kroger, on sale, but there were 12-14 legs in the pack.  Chicken breasts are not that pricey there either.  They have good sushi at that Kroger, and it used to be $5 on Wednesdays, now it's $6.  We get it for lunch fairly often.  We think it's about as good as in some restaurant at 4x the price.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 10, 2024, 11:55:48 AM
Inflation apparently has not hit Midtown.

Prices are absolutely sick here.

$8.99/pound for boneless chicken breast. Just bought some yesterday.

4 years ago, wings were $2.99/pound. Now they are $5.99. Sometimes $4.99 if on sale, but you have to buy 3 pounds.

Seafood has also gone up a lot too. 

In the Gulf, you have to go out 30-50 miles to get the good stuff. Boats use gas, and we all know about gas prices.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 10, 2024, 11:59:57 AM
2019 price for eggs at my local grocery store, was around $1.10/dozen.  Current price is $2.77/dozen.  These aren't fancy organics or anything, they're the base for large Grade A in the cheapest version of the store's own-brands.  Basically, what the poor people (and me) buy for basic protein needs.

154% increase.  



Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 10, 2024, 12:00:26 PM
My last gas fillup was $2.85 here, at Costco.  It's around $3.30 elsewhere at regular stations, about the same price as in 1980 adjusted for inflation.

I mentioned the Totchos next door have gone from $10 to $15, not $20 (yet).  Our Kroger technically is not in midtown.  We're going to shop at a Safeway in Sedona, I'll get a brief peak at what prices are there.  We usually get stuff for breakfast and lunch and then fine out.  I might cook steaks at the resort, we'll see.  They have grills about.

We have a small kitchen in the unit.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 10, 2024, 12:02:36 PM
My last gas fillup was $2.85 here, at Costco.  It's around $3.30 elsewhere at regular stations, about the same price as in 1980 adjusted for inflation.

I mentioned the Totchos next door have gone from $10 to $15, not $20 (yet).  Our Kroger technically is not in midtown.  We're going to shop at a Safeway in Sedona, I'll get a brief peak at what prices are there.  We usually get stuff for breakfast and lunch and then fine out.  I might cook steaks at the resort, we'll see.  They have grills about.

We have a small kitchen in the unit.
That will save you a ton of money. Sedona is not cheap by any stretch. Breakfast out can be a $50 ordeal, depending on where you go.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 10, 2024, 12:03:28 PM
I just paid $4.19 for 91 octane yesterday. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 10, 2024, 12:03:31 PM
How about beer and wine prices where you are?  They have not gone up here much, a 12 pack of good beer went from ~$16 to ~$17-18.  Wine is about the same, and I buy wine pretty often.  I've been getting Josh cases over the past few years, I think they do a decent job for the money.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 10, 2024, 12:05:20 PM
A case of basic beer (Pabst) runs about $27 here.

A 12 of Modelo I just bought was $16.49.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 10, 2024, 12:07:24 PM
Prices are absolutely sick here.

$8.99/pound for boneless chicken breast. Just bought some yesterday.

4 years ago, wings were $2.99/pound. Now they are $5.99. Sometimes $4.99 if on sale, but you have to buy 3 pounds.
WTF??

I just looked in my freezer. Boneless skinless breast $2.99/lb. Wings $2.49/lb. 

I don't know where you're shopping, but you're getting screwed. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 10, 2024, 12:07:34 PM
6-pack of local craft beer here is around $10.  4-5 years ago it was more like $8.  25% increase isn't bad for something that has VERY inelastic demand with respect to pricing.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 10, 2024, 12:19:22 PM
An item that is WAY up in price catches our eye, and we tend not to notice that some other item is barely if any up in price.

Our impressions can be misleading.

Mine included.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 10, 2024, 12:21:16 PM
WTF??

I just looked in my freezer. Boneless skinless breast $2.99/lb. Wings $2.49/lb.

I don't know where you're shopping, but you're getting screwed.
Chicken wing prices are highly volatile.  Current price at my local grocer is $3.63/ lb and that's for the cheapest brand, the store's entry-level own-brand.  Average national price was around $1.69/lb in 2019 so that's around 114% inflation.

HOWEVER

It wasn't so long before that, that wings were $.79 or $.89 per lb. 
The ever-increasing popularity of chicken wings is not the fault of the president, I can't blame Sleepy Joe for the law of supply and demand. :)

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 10, 2024, 12:23:18 PM
I recall at some restaurants advertising wings for a quarter (happy hour).  This was maybe 2010ish.  That is an item that has really zoomed in popularity, and in most cases, I don't find them worth it.  I prefer legs at home.

We're about to get a Lyft to the ATL, see ya.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 10, 2024, 12:25:18 PM
WTF??

I just looked in my freezer. Boneless skinless breast $2.99/lb. Wings $2.49/lb.

I don't know where you're shopping, but you're getting screwed.
Look on a map to see where we are in the country. I'll help.


(https://i.imgur.com/utwhRIe.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 10, 2024, 12:47:46 PM
I'll probably go get some of these today.

(https://i.imgur.com/SfYbQhI.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2FoFZtJ.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/7Asuaxx.png)

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 10, 2024, 01:32:03 PM
Chicken wing prices are highly volatile.  Current price at my local grocer is $3.63/ lb and that's for the cheapest brand, the store's entry-level own-brand.  Average national price was around $1.69/lb in 2019 so that's around 114% inflation.

HOWEVER

It wasn't so long before that, that wings were $.79 or $.89 per lb. 
The ever-increasing popularity of chicken wings is not the fault of the president, I can't blame Sleepy Joe for the law of supply and demand. :)
I wonder if wings actually get more expensive when football season rolls around? 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 10, 2024, 01:34:08 PM
Look on a map to see where we are in the country. I'll help.


(https://i.imgur.com/utwhRIe.png)
I know where live. But $8.99/lb for boneless skinless chicken breast seems like the kind of thing you'd find here, at Gelson's Market (upscale compared to Whole Foods), in Newport Beach. And even then only for organic. 

What's up with food prices in Florida??
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 10, 2024, 02:11:14 PM
2019 price for eggs at my local grocery store, was around $1.10/dozen.  Current price is $2.77/dozen.  These aren't fancy organics or anything, they're the base for large Grade A in the cheapest version of the store's own-brands.  Basically, what the poor people (and me) buy for basic protein needs.

154% increase. 
According to this (https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/egg-prices-adjusted-for-inflation/), using 2019 is a bit of cherry-picking... 2019 was the lowest price for a dozen eggs since 2006, at $1.40/dozen. 2018 was $1.76, and back in 2015 it was as high as $2.47. 

National price is currently $2.71, suggesting NEARLY 100% price inflation (94%), but only if you use a statistically very cheap year for eggs. If you started with 2018 it'd be 54% and if you used 2020 it'd be 79%. 

Also note that using a single commodity is difficult, because it may reflect factors beyond simple inflation. For example, the rise of bird flu (https://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/spending/articles/why-are-eggs-so-expensive-right-now) and the rising costs to mitigate it. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: longhorn320 on August 10, 2024, 02:26:33 PM
According to this (https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/egg-prices-adjusted-for-inflation/), using 2019 is a bit of cherry-picking... 2019 was the lowest price for a dozen eggs since 2006, at $1.40/dozen. 2018 was $1.76, and back in 2015 it was as high as $2.47.

National price is currently $2.71, suggesting NEARLY 100% price inflation (94%), but only if you use a statistically very cheap year for eggs. If you started with 2018 it'd be 54% and if you used 2020 it'd be 79%.

Also note that using a single commodity is difficult, because it may reflect factors beyond simple inflation. For example, the rise of bird flu (https://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/spending/articles/why-are-eggs-so-expensive-right-now) and the rising costs to mitigate it.
I think its more then inflation creating price increases 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 10, 2024, 02:32:49 PM
I’m not saying it was aliens but. ….
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 10, 2024, 03:23:15 PM
I know where live. But $8.99/lb for boneless skinless chicken breast seems like the kind of thing you'd find here, at Gelson's Market (upscale compared to Whole Foods), in Newport Beach. And even then only for organic.

What's up with food prices in Florida??
Trucking. Loads come down here from all over the country, and you can't get much further South than we are. I mean, when you get to Florida, you're still another 6 hours from here.

Then the trucks leave, often with nothing loaded outside of citrus, and sugar.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 10, 2024, 03:42:19 PM
Interesting. I would say that I wouldn't have thought shipping costs would be THAT big of an issue.

But then I think about where I live. We have two MAJOR ports, which means we've got container ships showing up to be unloaded onto trains constantly, and we've got 20M+ people in this metro area, so it would make sense that there are a LOT of consumers here so anything that can be put on a train on the way here helps, so trains can be pretty full going both ways.

I mean, the costs I quoted were based on bulk packs from Costco, so there's savings there, but it still seems crazy that you're paying >2x for wings and ~3x for chicken breast. I wonder what those items cost at your local Costco--a Google Maps search suggests you've got one ~30 min away? 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 10, 2024, 03:52:25 PM
Costco is 45-60 minutes depending on traffic. We are supposed to get one in the next five years.

We have BJ's and Sams closer, but I'm not a fan of either.

We have Publix, Aldi, Walmart and Winn Dixie close. Meh on the latter three, except for some items at Aldi can be decent. And we have a place called Farmer Joe's, which is more $ than Publix.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 10, 2024, 05:10:45 PM
Aldi is awesome
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 10, 2024, 06:03:17 PM
Costco is 45-60 minutes depending on traffic. We are supposed to get one in the next five years.

We have BJ's and Sams closer, but I'm not a fan of either.

We have Publix, Aldi, Walmart and Winn Dixie close. Meh on the latter three, except for some items at Aldi can be decent. And we have a place called Farmer Joe's, which is more $ than Publix.
Ditto all of that here as well and how I feel about them.   Publix is awesome.  Clean, super well stocked, great meat, fish and produce.   You can’t work there unless you know about good customer service.  But…. High priced on many things. 
Winn Dixie ok for generic things ( coffee, cereal, noodles, etc) and often less expensive, but not nearly as clean and organized, and the employees often less than friendly.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 10, 2024, 06:25:41 PM
According to this (https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/egg-prices-adjusted-for-inflation/), using 2019 is a bit of cherry-picking... 2019 was the lowest price for a dozen eggs since 2006, at $1.40/dozen. 2018 was $1.76, and back in 2015 it was as high as $2.47.

National price is currently $2.71, suggesting NEARLY 100% price inflation (94%), but only if you use a statistically very cheap year for eggs. If you started with 2018 it'd be 54% and if you used 2020 it'd be 79%.

Also note that using a single commodity is difficult, because it may reflect factors beyond simple inflation. For example, the rise of bird flu (https://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/spending/articles/why-are-eggs-so-expensive-right-now) and the rising costs to mitigate it.

So the price dropped when Trump was president, and increased under Biden.  I think you've made the R's point for them. ;)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 10, 2024, 08:11:34 PM
I'll just retire here and put up with the snow............

$2.98 fresh ground beef
$3.88 fresh boneless skinless chicken breasts
$16.98 lb angus reserve boneless ribeye
$8.99 boneless sirloin
$2.77 Oscar Mayer hot dogs
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 11, 2024, 08:34:51 AM
Ditto all of that here as well and how I feel about them.  Publix is awesome.  Clean, super well stocked, great meat, fish and produce.  You can’t work there unless you know about good customer service.  But…. High priced on many things.
Winn Dixie ok for generic things ( coffee, cereal, noodles, etc) and often less expensive, but not nearly as clean and organized, and the employees often less than friendly. 
Do you have Kroger over there? We had Kroger back North in the form of Mariano's. Bob Mariano left Roundy's and started his own store, taking many of the former Dominick's locations. Those stores were great and forced others to step up their game. The Kroger came in and bought all of the Mariano's stores. They didn't mess them up, which was good.

And yes, Publix is great. Just expensive. I watch for BOGO's and we pretty much only buy that stuff now.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 11, 2024, 08:50:19 AM
Do you have Kroger over there? We had Kroger back North in the form of Mariano's. Bob Mariano left Roundy's and started his own store, taking many of the former Dominick's locations. Those stores were great and forced others to step up their game. The Kroger came in and bought all of the Mariano's stores. They didn't mess them up, which was good.

And yes, Publix is great. Just expensive. I watch for BOGO's and we pretty much only buy that stuff now.
Same.  They have those often.  
no Kroger here.  That was the go to back in Michigan.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 11, 2024, 08:57:21 AM
It would be nice to have Kroger come so Publix has some competition!
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 11, 2024, 01:33:06 PM
So the price dropped when Trump was president, and increased under Biden.  I think you've made the R's point for them. ;)
Well, it does get a little bit difficult... We can look at the four years of Trump's presidency, as he came into office in Jan 2017:


Or, maybe, just maybe, we can all agree that the President isn't responsible for the price of eggs :57:


Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 11, 2024, 02:01:15 PM
Well, it does get a little bit difficult... We can look at the four years of Trump's presidency, as he came into office in Jan 2017:

  • 2017: Good job, Donny! You dropped the price of eggs from Obama's last year (1.68) to 1.47. Well done! That's effective leadership!
  • 2018: Wait, you rose the price of eggs to 1.74? That's even higher than it was in Obama's last year. What the hell were you thinking? How are families going to deal with your piss-poor leadership?
  • 2019: Whew! Down to 1.40! I guess you figured things out, Donny, and we're back to good leadership. Making America Eggs Great Again!
  • 2020: 1.51?! You let the price of eggs go UP again? Why would you do that? You've had 4 years to learn how to govern, and you're letting the price of eggs rise?! I guess you don't really want to get reelected, do you? You want to blame the Democrats for stealing the election, but maybe you just had a big target on your back from the egg lobby...

Or, maybe, just maybe, we can all agree that the President isn't responsible for the price of eggs :57:




2020 was when Sleepy Joe was elected.  Donny's only responsible for the price up to October. :)

And I've never asserted that the president influences the price of eggs.  I've only suggested that people vote with their wallets and there are many cases, including the price of eggs, where people are worse off financially than they were 4 years ago. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on August 11, 2024, 02:05:43 PM
Ditto all of that here as well and how I feel about them.  Publix is awesome.  Clean, super well stocked, great meat, fish and produce.  You can’t work there unless you know about good customer service.  But…. High priced on many things.
Winn Dixie ok for generic things ( coffee, cereal, noodles, etc) and often less expensive, but not nearly as clean and organized, and the employees often less than friendly. 
Can't have your Kate and Edith too
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 11, 2024, 03:13:19 PM
There is a brand new Costco in North Port. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 11, 2024, 03:31:38 PM
2020 was when Sleepy Joe was elected.  Donny's only responsible for the price up to October. :)

And I've never asserted that the president influences the price of eggs.  I've only suggested that people vote with their wallets and there are many cases, including the price of eggs, where people are worse off financially than they were 4 years ago. 
I agree. It's the economy, stupid. And stupids vote on the status of an economy that the President has terribly little control over. 

All that said, I absolutely think that the Biden administration shares blame for the inflation we've seen. Global pandemic and we spent, and spent, and spent, and spent. Massive fiscal stimulus. What does anyone think all that extra money in the economy, chasing the same amount (or lesser, given some supply chain issues) of goods and services in the economy, is going to do? Raise prices. 

But I also have a sneaking suspicion that if 45 had won a second term, and he got the ability to take credit for all that fiscal stimulus to "keep the economy going", he'd have signed off on it too. Obv you can't easily argue counterfactuals because I can't prove myself right and nobody else can prove me wrong. But seeing how giddy he was to send out those stimulus checks [as long as they had his signature on them], I don't doubt it. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 11, 2024, 05:35:22 PM
The last round of checks was one round to many, and DJT supported them too, Joe signed the bill.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on August 11, 2024, 06:46:50 PM
It's true, but there were a lot of unknowns, and the gov't erred on the side of people possibly having too much rather than too little.

I tend to give the imperfections of the covid and post-covid decision-making a pass, as it was unprecedented for all involved.
No, that does not include Trump poo-pooing it, suggesting it would just "go away."  His ignorance caused a lot of deaths.
But Fauci should have specified wanting masks for front-line workers.  You have to trust the masses there with transparency, even though the masses are shaved apes and would have horded masks regardless.
The CDC should have been telling the gov't what to do and not the other way around.
I understand if we went a little overboard with the mask mandates and school closures, but closing outdoor spaces like beaches and parks was asinine and ignorant. 
Shit, to this day, I see people driving alone in a car with a mask on.  There's too careful, there's ignorant, and then there's stupid.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:46:08 AM
The executive branch and government policy ABSOLUTELY impact inflation.  It’s called fiscal policy. Not only how much to tax, or reduce taxes, but also how much to spend, and more importantly- WHAT to spend it on. 

Monetary policy is the central bank’s/Federal reserve responsibility and CAN BE influenced by the executive branch.

Biden and Congress DO NOT get a pass for the inflation that they strongly contributed to- well after Covid   

This is where decisions that are much more social have such impact. Entitlement programs, or things that are “green“ all have a major impact.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:51:21 AM
It's true, but there were a lot of unknowns, and the gov't erred on the side of people possibly having too much rather than too little.

I tend to give the imperfections of the covid and post-covid decision-making a pass, as it was unprecedented for all involved.
No, that does not include Trump poo-pooing it, suggesting it would just "go away."  His ignorance caused a lot of deaths.
But Fauci should have specified wanting masks for front-line workers.  You have to trust the masses there with transparency, even though the masses are shaved apes and would have horded masks regardless.
The CDC should have been telling the gov't what to do and not the other way around.
I understand if we went a little overboard with the mask mandates and school closures, but closing outdoor spaces like beaches and parks was asinine and ignorant. 
Shit, to this day, I see people driving alone in a car with a mask on.  There's too careful, there's ignorant, and then there's stupid.
This false narrative “ Trumps ignorance “ caused deaths has been overwhelmingly proven false. You need to get with the times- that narrative was effective by the Dems and MSM to win the 2020 election. 
The repeated falsehoods about the vaccines, the effectiveness of the masks, why we have lockdowns, what medication’s work and don’t work, have all fallen apart like an undercooked cake. 
The hypocrisy was and still is stunning. Close down businesses that have never recovered or ever came back but allow marijuana stores to stay open massive riots and shipping Covid patients into old folks homes. Those are the things that caused not only a lot of deaths, but are now contributing to, so many of the economic problems that exist 

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 12, 2024, 07:49:26 AM
There is a brand new Costco in North Port.
54 minutes away.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 12, 2024, 07:59:02 AM
At the height of the pandemic housing boom in May 2022, FirstKey Homes, an institutional landlord owned by private equity firm Cerberus, bought a three-bedroom house at 25080 Estrada Circle in Punta Gorda, Florida for $445,000.

After putting it on the market for rent in July 2022, taking it off the market, and putting it back on the market at a lower asking rent, FirstKey Homes decided to put the rental home for sale at $400,000 in February 2024.

Fast-forward to July 2024, and the home is still currently for sale, having seen its price cut six times to $336,000. If it sells for that amount, it would represent a 25% decline from its May 2022 purchase.

While national aggregate home price indices are hovering around all-time highs, some regional housing markets in states like Florida, Texas, and Louisiana are experiencing home price corrections. This includes the Punta Gorda metro area in Southwest Florida.


https://www.fastcompany.com/91170046/housing-market-florida-city-punta-gorda-hardest-hit-2008-bubble (https://www.fastcompany.com/91170046/housing-market-florida-city-punta-gorda-hardest-hit-2008-bubble)

(https://i.imgur.com/4c1A9oM.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 12, 2024, 08:01:54 AM
25080 Estrada Circle in Punta Gorda
Burnt Store Village is weird. I would never buy in there.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 12, 2024, 10:19:07 AM
With a different admin, I do wonder what inflation would’ve looked like. There is basically no way it was going to be anything other than some degree of bad. So the question would be how much would a different admin shave off the high inflation already there. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Temp430 on August 12, 2024, 10:27:41 AM
With a different admin, I do wonder what inflation would’ve looked like. There is basically no way it was going to be anything other than some degree of bad. So the question would be how much would a different admin shave off the high inflation already there.
Without the $1.9 trillion 2021 American Rescue Plan potlach and the $1.2 trillion 2022 Inflation Reduction Act is quite likely the inflation would never have happened.  VP Harris had the tie breaking votes on both of those bills in the Senate.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 12, 2024, 10:37:56 AM
Without the $1.9 trillion 2021 American Rescue Plan potlach and the $1.2 trillion 2022 Inflation Reduction Act is quite likely the inflation would never have happened.  VP Harris had the tie breaking votes on both of those bills in the Senate.
Correct.

Neither of those bills were needed, and here we are.

But just remember, we were told by this administration that inflation would be transitory.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 12, 2024, 10:49:30 AM
Without the $1.9 trillion 2021 American Rescue Plan potlach and the $1.2 trillion 2022 Inflation Reduction Act is quite likely the inflation would never have happened.  VP Harris had the tie breaking votes on both of those bills in the Senate.
Here's where the question becomes one of imagination, though...

Do you think if 45 remained in office, we wouldn't have had massive fiscal stimulus? I personally think we would have. The names of the bills might have changed, and maybe a lot of the priorities for that spending would be different. But I think we'd still have had a hell of a lot of spending. 

After all, pretty much every other country did it (https://www.investopedia.com/government-stimulus-and-relief-efforts-to-fight-the-covid-19-crisis-5113980). 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 11:00:30 AM
The thing is that legislation was bragged about and pushed hard.

They own the good and the bad of it.


They just don’t want to “man up” and own it
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 12, 2024, 11:09:33 AM
The thing is that legislation was bragged about and pushed hard.

They own the good and the bad of it.


They just don’t want to “man up” and own it
Of course. They want the credit for the good it did and not to accept blame for the bad. So they deflect about record profits and say inflation is all the fault of greedy corporations or some claptrap like that. When massive fiscal stimulus caused the inflation, and anyone with two brain cells to rub together knows it. 

I also note that on the other side, they want to hang inflation on the administration, but I don't see any of them giving credit for the US having the strongest post-COVID recovery in the first world, for 2 1/2 years of <4% unemployment, for the DJIA at record highs, etc. They want the admin to have all the blame for the bad but none of the credit for the good. 

It's standard politics. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 12, 2024, 11:16:33 AM
If "they" and "their ilk" who rammed those acts through didn't embrace long-term lockdowns, a huge stimulus would not have been done. It was not needed to the extent that it was done - they did it to us with foolish policies.

What was definitely needed was the PPP. That helped for a ton of employees who would have been faced with layoffs. And it should have stopped there.

I make too much money to get any stimulus checks, but my brothers got them. The smart one took his checks and gave it to his financial planner to invest. The dumb one bought a TV.

So yeah, that shit was really needed...
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 12, 2024, 05:47:19 PM
Without the $1.9 trillion 2021 American Rescue Plan potlach and the $1.2 trillion 2022 Inflation Reduction Act is quite likely the inflation would never have happened.  VP Harris had the tie breaking votes on both of those bills in the Senate.
We gave away well more than half a trillion in stimulus money and business handouts before that. Plus The supply chain was also all messed up, and the government wasn’t gonna save that.

There wouldn’t have been negative inflation or even normal inflation on account of those alone. Plus the next admin almost assuredly wouldn’t have suddenly gone to austerity policies.

It’s ok to acknowledge that an obvious shock was gonna have consequences soon enough. Did disfavored policies help? Nope. But if the only answer is that specific policies, I don’t like a responsible for all the problems, that basically robs credibility when using any of these metrics. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 12, 2024, 05:53:56 PM
The War on Immigrants clearly didn't help and clearly contributed to inflation, as well. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 05:57:38 PM
The War on Immigrants clearly didn't help and clearly contributed to inflation, as well.
A focus group of one.     What war😂😂😂

such a ridiculous take.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 12, 2024, 06:02:31 PM
A focus group of one.    What war😂😂😂

such a ridiculous take. 
Don't live in denial. Obviously, excessive restrictions on labor will increase the costs of goods and services. As we actually saw when plenty of businesses had huge problems in getting and keeping employees in the wake of COVID.

Seriously, Trump ran on basically one thing, which was building a wall to keep immigrants out. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:04:50 PM
Don't live in denial. Obviously, excessive restrictions on labor will increase the costs of goods and services. As we actually saw when plenty of businesses had huge problems in getting and keeping employees in the wake of COVID.
 Better than living in fantasy land. 

yes- employers struggled to get employees in the wake of Covid because because of the war on immigrants. ( the war that never happened). 

Not because the government handouts were richer than the employment.   Get a clue and learn something about economics please
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 12, 2024, 06:06:19 PM

Quote
yes- employers struggled to get employees in the wake of Covid because because of the war on immigrants. ( the war that never happened). 
Yeah Trump was famous for his welcoming message to immigrants. Might as well go full on delusional.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:09:08 PM
Yeah Trump was famous for his welcoming message to immigrants. Might as well go full on delusional.

Oh, now I see your point. The incredible and painful rise in inflation during the Biden administration caused by his fiscal policy was really the fault of the President before him for talking about wanting legal immigration versus illegally immigration. 😂😂😂😂.   You are truly delusional.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:10:02 PM
Just own it man. It is what it is. The inflation caused by Biden’s spending policies and other fiscal policies was very painful for this country and still is. Just own it. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:11:39 PM
Not to mention the millions of dollars of taxpayer money spent on un vetted illegal immigrants for housing, food, education, medical, and transportation to all the cities that the Biden administration ship them to.   But it was Trumps fault. 😂😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 12, 2024, 06:12:52 PM
Oh, now I see your point. The incredible and painful rise in inflation during the Biden administration caused by his fiscal policy was really the fault of the President before him for talking about wanting legal immigration versus illegally immigration. 😂😂😂😂.  You are truly delusional. 
Let's see.


This is basic economics and can't be escaped by wishing it away. I will say the Dems didn't really do anything to address the issue, and Congress was mostly helpless on the issue despite a clear need, though that is typical of them these days.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:15:37 PM
Let's see.

  • Trump ran on a message of drastically reducing immigration
  • Trump claimed he successfully reduced immigration
  • After COVID inflation occurred, triggered in part to a lack of labor due to decreased immigration
  • Honest Buckeye says "it's everything else! Not that! Not that!"

This is basic economics and can't be escaped by wishing it away. I will say the Dems didn't really do anything to address the issue, and Congress was mostly helpless on the issue despite a clear need, though that is typical of them these days.


I can’t have a debate with someone who is so separated from the actual facts.  You truly are delusional.  I can’t even believe you wrote what you just wrote. 

I’ll just take your word for it. The torrid spending and money printing that went on during the Biden ministration and clearly caused inflation was really really the fault of the person before him.  Struggling employment after Covid was because of Donald Trump not because of the government handouts.  OK, you win  😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:18:58 PM
You should run for office. You’ve got the talking points down to a science.

Biden ran on a policy of “the buck stops here” but has blamed anything negative on the president before him. He, Harris, and the media are still doing that as are you.  

Meanwhile, he’s been bragging about how good the employment numbers are so you must’ve forgotten that memo. Now you’re blaming inflation on businesses challenge to hire employees.   Do you see how stupid that looks and sounds?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 12, 2024, 06:19:53 PM
I can’t have a debate with someone who is so separated from the actual facts.  You truly are delusional.  I can’t even believe you wrote what you just wrote. 

I’ll just take your word for it. The torrid spending and money printing that went on during the Biden ministration and clearly caused inflation was really really the fault of the person before him.  Struggling employment after Covid was because of Donald Trump not because of the government handouts.  OK, you win  😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Your entire premise is that there is but one single cause of inflation. Good luck with that.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 12, 2024, 06:21:11 PM
I think this time y'all are really gonna convince one another!

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:21:37 PM
Your entire premise is that there is but one single cause of inflation. Good luck with that.
If you read up thread, you’ll see the exact opposite is true. Having a deep understanding and economics there are multiple factors involved, which I stated way of thread.  


Who’s claiming there is a single cause and blaming it on some thing that’s not even related and an administration that’s been gone for a long time. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 12, 2024, 06:22:21 PM
This is basic economics and can't be escaped by wishing it away. I will say the Dems didn't really do anything to address the issue, and Congress was mostly helpless on the issue despite a clear need, though that is typical of them these days.
Sam, you're off on this one. While a lack of immigration might lead to wage growth, which might lead to inflation, I don't think that's really the case here. Especially with the very high immigration that we've seen post-Trump. 

But the inflation we see is a global phenomenon, not a domestic one. If it was caused by a lack of US immigration, wouldn't all those countries who were flush with workers see their prices be stable? After all, their people weren't trying to immigrate here, right? 

The truth (to my basic economics mind) is that massive fiscal stimulus caused a situation where a lot of new dollars were chasing an equivalent--or due to supply chain issues, a smaller--basket of goods and services. It's monetarily-driven. 

However, unlike HB I'm not just going to say this is a Biden or Democrat problem. Trump was already starting fiscal stimulus while still in office--likely to try to get people to vote for him. GWB was starting fiscal stimulus when the Great Recession hit, as well as a few times before that.

So I don't think it's partisan. It's what governments do when the excrement impacts the air circulation device. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:22:30 PM
I think this time y'all are really gonna convince one another!


Sorry- I should just resist when somebody who is politically blind post something so ridiculous. You’re right it isn’t even worth my time.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 12, 2024, 06:23:03 PM
you fellas are typical political arguers 

nothing new here

"It's the other side's fault"
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 12, 2024, 06:23:20 PM
Sorry- I should just resist when somebody who is politically blind post something so ridiculous. You’re right it isn’t even worth my time.
Most online political fights are not. But man they get us going. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:24:30 PM
Sam, you're off on this one. While a lack of immigration might lead to wage growth, which might lead to inflation, I don't think that's really the case here. Especially with the very high immigration that we've seen post-Trump.

But the inflation we see is a global phenomenon, not a domestic one. If it was caused by a lack of US immigration, wouldn't all those countries who were flush with workers see their prices be stable? After all, their people weren't trying to immigrate here, right?

The truth (to my basic economics mind) is that massive fiscal stimulus caused a situation where a lot of new dollars were chasing an equivalent--or due to supply chain issues, a smaller--basket of goods and services. It's monetarily-driven.

However, unlike HB I'm not just going to say this is a Biden or Democrat problem. Trump was already starting fiscal stimulus while still in office--likely to try to get people to vote for him. GWB was starting fiscal stimulus when the Great Recession hit, as well as a few times before that.

So I don't think it's partisan. It's what governments do when the excrement impacts the air circulation device.
Well, if you read up thread a little bit, you will see that that is not at all what I am saying.

but what I am saying is that the fiscal policy of the current administration was a substantial contributor to the acceleration of inflation.

as I have said numerous times, neither party gets a pass on this.  But they don’t get a pass when they do it.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 12, 2024, 06:25:12 PM
you fellas are typical political arguers

nothing new here

"It's the other side's fault"
That’s bull.  That is not my position.   Read up before you say crap like that. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 12, 2024, 06:28:54 PM
;)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 12, 2024, 07:11:01 PM
I blame the egg lobby. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 12, 2024, 08:03:36 PM
I think this time y'all are really gonna convince one another!


Truth finds a way brother. People used to say beans didn't belong in chili, but they are much quieter now.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 12, 2024, 08:13:53 PM
I blame the egg lobby.
I blame eggs themselves. Slackers. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 12, 2024, 08:26:49 PM
Truth finds a way brother. People used to say beans didn't belong in chili, but they are much quieter now.
Negatory there, little brother.  That's a nil on the beanos.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 12, 2024, 08:28:16 PM
Negatory there, little brother.  That's a nil on the beanos.
Yes grandpa we hear you now let's find you your favorite rocking chair
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 12, 2024, 08:48:56 PM
Sam, you're off on this one. While a lack of immigration might lead to wage growth, which might lead to inflation, I don't think that's really the case here. Especially with the very high immigration that we've seen post-Trump.

But the inflation we see is a global phenomenon, not a domestic one. If it was caused by a lack of US immigration, wouldn't all those countries who were flush with workers see their prices be stable? After all, their people weren't trying to immigrate here, right?

The truth (to my basic economics mind) is that massive fiscal stimulus caused a situation where a lot of new dollars were chasing an equivalent--or due to supply chain issues, a smaller--basket of goods and services. It's monetarily-driven.

However, unlike HB I'm not just going to say this is a Biden or Democrat problem. Trump was already starting fiscal stimulus while still in office--likely to try to get people to vote for him. GWB was starting fiscal stimulus when the Great Recession hit, as well as a few times before that.

So I don't think it's partisan. It's what governments do when the excrement impacts the air circulation device.
I mean yes, you can't deny that increasing the money supply is going to raise inflation. But in the same vein that increases in the money supply don't end at the borders, neither does the costs of US goods and services. 

That increase in price hit everywhere, but the one people complain about the most is the cost of groceries and food. These depend on a lot of "unskilled" labor, the kind easily supplied by immigration, and the kind that dried up in the face of very low levels of immigration. It wouldn't be any surprise to see that hypothetical and conclude crackdowns on immigration contributed to inflation.

But we don't need a hypothetical! We saw it. Many businesses struggled to fill jobs, and therefore struggled to do business without raising prices across the board. We didn't have a policy about making sure people could come and work. We had a policy to prevent people from working. And now we are paying the price.

It's also no surprise that the decrease in inflation has been largely helped by an increase in immigrants working.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 12, 2024, 09:01:17 PM
Yes grandpa we hear you now let's find you your favorite rocking chair
Lulzno
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 12, 2024, 09:27:35 PM
That increase in price hit everywhere, but the one people complain about the most is the cost of groceries and food. These depend on a lot of "unskilled" labor, the kind easily supplied by immigration, and the kind that dried up in the face of very low levels of immigration. It wouldn't be any surprise to see that hypothetical and conclude crackdowns on immigration contributed to inflation.
Food prices are also HIGHLY correlated to shipping and fertilizer costs... Guess what happened to those? 

And as we discussed re: eggs, a huge portion of that was bird flu. Immigrants aren't going to make bird flu suddenly better. 

IMHO immigration vs non-immigration absolutely CAN affect the cost of goods and services--in fact medina will agree with that, where immigration drives down the cost of labor (and therefore prices that are based upon that labor). 

I just think in the wake of what's happened over the last 4 years, immigration is a very minor factor. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on August 12, 2024, 10:06:35 PM
It's also no surprise that the decrease in inflation has been largely helped by an increase in immigrants working.
Any other rare gems you'd like to mine for the congregation??? Almost any swinging Richard would call false at that economic indicator.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 12, 2024, 10:07:18 PM
Immigrants brought the bird flu
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 12, 2024, 10:10:13 PM
Immigrants brought the bird flu
And COVID.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on August 12, 2024, 10:16:03 PM
Negatory there, little brother.  That's a nil on the beanos.
Ya well even briskett/Gr Beef has gone thru the roof gonna be more meatless meals.Brutha can you spare a lonestar
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 12, 2024, 10:24:52 PM
Ya well even briskett/Gr Beef has gone thru the roof gonna be more meatless meals.Brutha can you spare a lonestar
Oh I wouldn't ever deny a poor, sad soul a bowl of bean soup.  Bean soup can be delicious.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 12, 2024, 10:25:31 PM
Back on topic, just saw this:
Some of you may or may not know but I’ve been an appraiser for the Medina County Sheriff 27 years. We had 8 Foreclosure appraisals this month. The most in several years. Just a FYI…

That is local, second hand, and anecdotal but to me it is just another indicator pointing a bad way.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on August 12, 2024, 10:35:54 PM
Back on topic, just saw this:
Some of you may or may not know but I’ve been an appraiser for the Medina County Sheriff 27 years. Didn't know that

That is local, second hand, and anecdotal but to me it is just another indicator pointing a bad way. Kind a felt/figured that
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 13, 2024, 05:58:07 AM
Truth finds a way brother. People used to say beans didn't belong in chili, but they are much quieter now.
Bullshit.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 13, 2024, 07:21:37 AM
I'd rather argue over chili and bean soup than.......... the unspeakable
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 13, 2024, 07:32:16 AM
I'd rather argue over chili and bean soup than.......... the unspeakable
I'm always all ears when it comes to what you can add to chili starter base (Texas chili) to make it good
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 13, 2024, 07:42:10 AM
I like shredded cheese and corn chips as condiments

stickin a big bright green fresh or roasted Hatch chili pepper on top is always good
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 13, 2024, 07:43:43 AM
I'd rather argue over chili and bean soup than.......... the unspeakable
people who think a steak should be cooked well done?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 13, 2024, 07:46:57 AM
I don't argue with those folks
I don't even speak with them
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: GopherRock on August 13, 2024, 08:36:31 AM
Isn't that a hangin' offense in some jurisdictions?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 13, 2024, 08:52:43 AM
should be if it isn't
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 13, 2024, 09:16:20 AM
Kenji Lopez-Alt has all sorts of additions - chocolate, star anise, stuff like that. I haven't tried that, but the trifecta of marmite, soy sauce, and anchovies works. Anchovies are an underrated ingredient in all sorts of things.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 13, 2024, 10:39:35 AM
Early sense raw material prices are headed lower.  Have already weakened. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 13, 2024, 11:02:33 AM
I'm seeing that  ICs and CPUs will be headed into shortage and allocation by Q2 of next year.  That means price increases and longer lead times on anything and everything that uses them-- computers, consumer electronics, cars, etc.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 13, 2024, 11:59:58 AM
I'm seeing that  ICs and CPUs will be headed into shortage and allocation by Q2 of next year.  That means price increases and longer lead times on anything and everything that uses them-- computers, consumer electronics, cars, etc.
Yep. RAM and storage devices as well. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: longhorn320 on August 13, 2024, 01:47:17 PM
Yep. RAM and storage devices as well.
maybe we will start making them in the US
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 13, 2024, 02:17:45 PM
maybe we will start making them in the US
We already do.  Micron makes a lot of DRAM here in the states, and they're currently planning large additions to their US-based manufacturing.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 13, 2024, 10:46:58 PM
Kenji Lopez-Alt has all sorts of additions - chocolate, star anise, stuff like that. I haven't tried that, but the trifecta of marmite, soy sauce, and anchovies works. Anchovies are an underrated ingredient in all sorts of things.
I've heard of folks putting some chocolate in chili
not Star anise, marmite, soy sauce, or anchovies
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 14, 2024, 01:12:46 AM
. Anchovies are an underrated ingredient in all sorts of things.
Pasta burro e alici. Heavenly. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 14, 2024, 07:11:25 AM
I've heard of folks putting some chocolate in chili
not Star anise, marmite, soy sauce, or anchovies
I've taken to putting them in all sorts of things - meatballs are especially good. Marmite I'm not sure I've tasted as much but I do add it sometimes. Getting the lid off the jar is a bitch though
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 14, 2024, 08:22:39 AM
I've heard of folks putting some chocolate in chili
not Star anise, marmite, soy sauce, or anchovies
Tangential nice business story.

There was a chocolate maker in Texas that was falling on hard times a few years back. they realized that some of their techniques and equipments could be adapted for barbecue.

They ended up being ranked among the best BBQ in the state one year, and still sell upscale chocolate on the side. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 14, 2024, 08:29:59 AM
Tangential nice business story.

There was a chocolate maker in Texas that was falling on hard times a few years back. they realized that some of their techniques and equipments could be adapted for barbecue.

They ended up being ranked among the best BBQ in the state one year, and still sell upscale chocolate on the side.
Tejas Chocolate and BBQ, in Tomball, TX, outside of Houston.

I've had it, it's legit. 


https://www.tejaschocolate.com/
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 14, 2024, 08:42:04 AM
Tejas Chocolate and BBQ, in Tomball, TX, outside of Houston.

I've had it, it's legit.


https://www.tejaschocolate.com/

Yes! I went on a work trip a few years back. Was pleased.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 14, 2024, 08:44:00 AM
that's the only reason I've been to Houston
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 14, 2024, 08:52:03 AM
that's the only reason I've been to Houston
NASA is pretty cool.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: GopherRock on August 14, 2024, 08:59:29 AM
that's the only reason I've been to Houston
https://youtu.be/EuvlVo1QdLU?si=U2zYYCsBVT5z2ym7
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 14, 2024, 09:15:44 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh6XVg_qugc
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on August 14, 2024, 09:22:19 AM
How do you think the US economy is doing???

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/BBD2-OOYBXE?feature=share
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 14, 2024, 10:38:42 AM
https://youtu.be/EuvlVo1QdLU?si=U2zYYCsBVT5z2ym7
great song, great album


So farewell, my darling
Perhaps we'll meet again
On some sin-infested street corner in Houston Texas
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 15, 2024, 08:54:20 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/15/retail-sales-july-2024-.html
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 15, 2024, 09:05:44 AM
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/15/retail-sales-july-2024-.html
How much of that went onto credit cards...?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on August 15, 2024, 10:47:06 AM
Did my local Income Tax receipts analysis for August:

Four of the last five months are down compared to the same month a year ago. The lone exception was due to an extra Friday (payday) this year as compared to last.

Municipal Income Tax receipts for the last twelve months (ttm) are now about 2% off peak and dropping. 

The local economy here is definitively slowing down. In theory this particular locality could be an anomaly among a growing national economy but that us unlikely for several reasons including:



IMHO, the national economy is slowing down but, and this is important, I don't see any sudden crash. This isn't like 2008 when everything was hunky dory one day and the next day Lehman Bros. went broke, credit dried up, and a slew of mortgage backed securities suddenly defaulted seemingly in unison. 

Instead, what I am seeing is a broad but shallow slowdown. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 15, 2024, 11:03:23 AM
I'm anticipating a slide into mild recession starting early next year and peaking about a year later.  This will happen regardless of which party wins the presidential election.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 15, 2024, 02:48:31 PM
I'm anticipating a slide into mild recession starting early next year and peaking about a year later.  This will happen regardless of which party wins the presidential election.


Probably.   The different approaches impacted how we got here, and most certainly how we handle it when it happens- how quickly it is corrected.  
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 15, 2024, 05:06:34 PM
https://youtu.be/F4lryx3tZv0
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MarqHusker on August 16, 2024, 09:03:27 PM
I know, we could institute price controls, that always works!
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 16, 2024, 09:16:40 PM
Controls on price from one side, controls on labor from the other. All directions are commie.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 17, 2024, 09:46:37 AM
https://twitter.com/jimiuorio/status/1824509503758610710?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1824509503758610710%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url= (https://twitter.com/jimiuorio/status/1824509503758610710?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1824509503758610710|twgr^|twcon^s1_&ref_url=)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 19, 2024, 07:46:40 AM
Our flight out was not full, had 30 empty seats, flight back seemed to be full.  The ATL airport when we arrived was jammed, like a holiday weekend, on a Sunday.  A lot of folks spending $$$, perhaps off CCs.

We were told this is the slow season in Sedona et al., also the "monsoon season", and it did rain a fair bit.  Phoenix was hot and humid early Sunday morning with occasional brief spats of rain, had regular rain most of the drive down.  PHX is a nice airport.  The Delta Lounge got a bit crowded.

People are still out and about, not like a recession period, to me.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 19, 2024, 10:06:22 AM
GM lays off more than 1,000 salaried software and services employees (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/19/gm-lays-off-more-than-1000-salaried-software-and-services-employees.html)


and the layoffs continue.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 19, 2024, 05:13:35 PM


(https://i.imgur.com/e9pAjuX.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 19, 2024, 05:14:08 PM
bought gasoline today for $2.85/gallon

life is good
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 20, 2024, 07:57:29 AM
bought gasoline today for $2.85/gallon
We filled up at Costco for $3.06, up a bit from last time.  Regular stations are around $3.50.

$3 gas once sounded heinous and now is decent.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 20, 2024, 08:48:37 AM
still sounds bad to me

$2.50 is decent

$2:00 is great
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 20, 2024, 09:12:27 AM
Inflation adjusted gas prices are pretty much the same now as in 1980, in fact, they are lower now.

Of course, this is somewhat circular.

(https://i.imgur.com/hhPVc7h.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 20, 2024, 09:18:20 AM
Gas prices have an outsized impact on "our" views of prices because we see them daily posted.  Maybe "cereal" goes up a dime, we don't really notice, at least not daily.

And gas prices closely track petroleum pricing, which is a global situation.  WTI won't vary that much from Brent, etc.  (It's usually a bit cheaper.)

There is this notion that "under Trump, we were energy independent", which is false.  And US oil production is now at record levels.  Would it be even high under Trump?  Doubtful, as oil production hinges on demand, oil majors/OPEC have no interest in producing "extra" just because they can.  They produce in the amount needed to stabilize prices, to the extent they can do so.  Trump would open up more land for exploration, fine, that doesn't mean anybody would step in at current prices and start producing.

Longer term, it could be a factor, but I do expect oil demand to drop over the next 20 years after peaking around 2030.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 20, 2024, 09:28:53 AM
I think US oil production which is now at record levels, would it be even high under Trump

We'd simply be importing less

same supply and demand, just less import
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 20, 2024, 09:32:53 AM
That's my point, I don't think US production would be any higher under Trump.  Other factors dominate.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 20, 2024, 10:18:10 AM
the US could have much more production, the overall world production could remain

US could be exporting oil

at least not importing any
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: longhorn320 on August 20, 2024, 10:19:13 AM
That's my point, I don't think US production would be any higher under Trump.  Other factors dominate.


Its my understanding Biden completely closed off Alaska's oil reserves so that might be different under Trump
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 20, 2024, 10:20:29 AM
also shut down leases in North Dakota
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 20, 2024, 11:35:39 AM
My point is oil companies don't produce just because some oil fields opened up.  They produce based on their forecast of demand.  You could open up everything and they probably, in my view, would produce almost nothing additional.  They would IN THE FUTURE, probably, but not now.  For one thing they currently are pretty much maxed out on drill rigs and workers and capital etc. and they have fields still available to them on private lands for more production if they see fit.

They produce more because they think it will be profitable, a solid return on investment, not because Alaska opened up.  Now if prices went well over $100 they would start if they could.

 Ant new oil field away from current fields requires a high level of investment, like Alaska, and it isn't worth it at current pricing.  They'd rather just drill another hole in the Permian.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 20, 2024, 06:16:04 PM
pretty sure it was stated that the oil companies had record profits last year

perhaps it's cause they're so smart as to only pump so much US oil and it's a better profit margin to refine imported oil
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 21, 2024, 08:00:36 AM
I don't know who had "record profits" in the oil patch, maybe someone did.  Below is for Exxon followed by Shell.

(https://i.imgur.com/O16DgrD.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Xr3MhJ9.png)

But they do have a choice between investing in new drilling somewhere and simply buying oil on the open market to refine, and they decide that based on their internal models.  No oil company is going to invest huge dollars in production here or elsewhere IF it would mean supply would start to exceed demand.  Their challenge is predicting the future of course, and they aren't all that good at it (neither am I).

Right now, in my view, one could open up vast tracts of land for exploration and production and not much would happen, maybe in five years or more production might start, maybe.  

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 21, 2024, 08:07:25 AM
plenty of wells sitting idle in North Dakota

plenty of wells idle all over the country because the price is down

perhaps a tariff on oil imports would be useful
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 21, 2024, 08:14:33 AM
plenty of wells sitting idle in North Dakota

plenty of wells idle all over the country because the price is down

perhaps a tariff on oil imports would be useful
But that would raise gas prices. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 21, 2024, 08:16:28 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/H1h474F.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 21, 2024, 08:18:25 AM
Most of our imported oil is from Canada and Mexico.  I view that as "better" than importing from most other oil producing countries.  And we export oil as well as refiners try and obtain the type of oil best suited for the refineries.  Some are optimized for Canadian "tar sands", some prefer low sulfur "sweet" crude.  Mucking with this by government likely will have adverse impacts somewhere.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 21, 2024, 08:41:45 AM
If I were in charge.......
I'd strive for a lot more US production, less imports (even from Canada), and lower prices because of more US production

I'd probably fail miserably
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 21, 2024, 08:48:30 AM
I think more US production would get swamped by the global oil market.  The US produces about 13 MMBPD, globally, it's about 100 MMBPD.  Say the US goes to 15, which is possible though unlikely, it would mean OPEC+ could simply cut back a bit from 41 BBPD so as to maintain pricing.  Now, OPEC doesn't completly control this as countries do cheat of course.  My point is US producers are not likely to want to do this any time soon.

OPEC+ produces 437,000 b/d above quota in first month of compensation cuts | S&P Global Commodity Insights (spglobal.com) (https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/080824-opec-produces-437000-bd-above-quota-in-first-month-of-compensation-cuts)

You still have the same supply-demand issue, just producing more somewhere doesn't mean prices would drop, necessarily.  Nobody wants to produce more than they can sell.  Oil companies want to avoid that even if it means they produce a bit less than  they can sell at a decent price.  They have an incentive to control supply.

Oil producers also have to be looking at the EV market share.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 21, 2024, 08:50:58 AM
yes, and demand is going up

I'd probably fail but, I'd try

the state of Texas and Oklahomo, and North Dakota, and Alaska would benefit
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 21, 2024, 08:59:16 AM
Short-Term Energy Outlook - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) (https://www.eia.gov/outlooks/steo/)

Their projections often are wrong for various reasons (so would be mine).

We forecast that global consumption of liquid fuels will increase by 1.1 million b/d in 2024 and 1.6 million b/d in 2025, down from a forecast of 1.8 million b/d in our previous STEO. Most of the reduction in our oil consumption forecast is in China, where we expect slowing economic growth will continue to reduce diesel consumption.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 21, 2024, 09:08:17 AM
between 2010 to 2019 fracked oil in North Dakota Williston area grew from 300,000 barrels of oil a month to 7½ million barrels a month.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 21, 2024, 09:36:03 AM
It really is stunning, and I think is the underpinning of a lot of US economic growth during that period.  Instead of sending dollars out, we kept them internally, mostly.

Without it, we'd probably have $5/gallon gas today.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 23, 2024, 10:22:04 AM
Interesting.

What net worth does one need to be rich in 2024? Here's what Americans think (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/personalfinance/what-net-worth-does-one-need-to-be-rich-in-2024-here-s-what-americans-think/ar-AA1piQsN?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=7850a7300b9a4eecbcef8c1534158f3b&ei=452)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 23, 2024, 10:29:45 AM
Charles Schwab's annual [color=var(--accent-foreground-rest)]Modern Wealth Survey (https://www.aboutschwab.com/schwab-modern-wealth-survey-2024)[/url] released this week found Americans now believe it takes a $2.5 million net worth on average to be considered wealthy in 2024, up from $2.2 million for the past two years. [/font][/size][/color]





Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 23, 2024, 10:59:34 AM
$2.5M net worth?  I don't consider that wealthy.  For a lot of folks probably close to half of that is tied up in your house.  Even if you're getting 10% on the rest that's not really enough to live on, insurance alone would eat up a ton of that. 

I'd guess that most folks with $2.5M net worth are still working schlubs like me.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 23, 2024, 11:03:57 AM
For a student or person struggling, a million sounds wealthy, I suspect.  For someone with fair means, it probably sounds "OK".  For a person with $10 million, it probably sounds "poorish".  There are likely a lot more folks in the first group than the last giving opinions.

We did this poll around here and I think hit on $5 million, or so, as opinion here, I'd guess most of us are doing fairly well.

I think one can retire fairly comfortably with a net worth of $2.5 million IFF one is 65 or so.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 23, 2024, 11:14:04 AM
I think one can retire fairly comfortably with a net worth of $2.5 million IFF one is 65 or so.
I'd think so. Especially given that a lot of people with that net worth has probably spent enough years at an income level where they're maxing out SS contributions, and thus will get the max benefit. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 23, 2024, 11:15:40 AM
$2.5M at 65 is one thing.

At 50 it means you're probably still a working stiff.

How much does insurance cost once you retire?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 23, 2024, 11:18:13 AM
$2.5M at 65 is one thing.

At 50 it means you're probably still a working stiff.
Yeah, but $2.5M at 50 means it's going to be growing significantly for the next 15 years until "normal" retirement age, so if you've got a job and $2.5M net worth at 50, you're well on your way to wealthy IMHO. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 23, 2024, 11:19:14 AM
At 50 it means you're probably still a working stiff.
Edit To Add: Especially if you have two high school kids about to enter college... :'(
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 23, 2024, 11:23:06 AM
Yeah, but $2.5M at 50 means it's going to be growing significantly for the next 15 years until "normal" retirement age, so if you've got a job and $2.5M net worth at 50, you're well on your way to wealthy IMHO.

Sure.  But "on your way to wealthy" is not the same as "wealthy."

If you're working because you MUST, I don't consider that wealthy.  To me, "wealthy" means you have enough money not to work at all, and if you're still working it's a choice.  And I also think of "wealthy" as a person who is capable of living a lavish lifestyle, within his means.

Sure there are wealthy people that DON'T live a lavish lifestyle, I think there are stories about Sam Walton still driving an old pickup and living frugally.  But he still had the capability to live lavishly, if he wanted.

Just my opinion of course.

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 23, 2024, 11:34:24 AM
How much does insurance cost once you retire?
My cost is unusually low, $134 a month for some Medicare Plus kind of policy, from work (it covers us both).  They take something out of my SS for Medicare, a few hundred, maybe $170.

My coverage seems to be solid though I've been healthy enough not to use it much.  My wife uses it more and she says it's good coverage.

I personally feel "comfortable", as "we" like to say.  I noted my IRA crested a number I never thought I'd see and then the "Kamala Crash" happened, and I pulled some out to pay bills, and now it crested that figure again today.  

For me, being "comfortable" means I'm not going to see a bill that stresses me and we can do "stuff" we want to do without worrying, but it is far short of paying for Delta One tickets etc.  I'll stay in Comfort seats.  Our cruises take a chunk, but manageable.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Riffraft on August 23, 2024, 12:38:04 PM
$2.5M at 65 is one thing.

At 50 it means you're probably still a working stiff.

How much does insurance cost once you retire?
Paying $1300 a month for Health, dental and eye insurance for the wife and I until next year when I turn 65 and am elligible for Medicare.  Wife is only 60 so 5 more years of probably a little more than half that. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 23, 2024, 12:38:49 PM
How Much You Need To Be in the Top 5% in Every State (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/personalfinance/how-much-you-need-to-be-in-the-top-5-in-every-state/ss-AAVm7Bl?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=ca3549649d7d4bd8871728991b8ac3a1&ei=17)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Riffraft on August 23, 2024, 12:47:56 PM
My cost is unusually low, $134 a month for some Medicare Plus kind of policy, from work (it covers us both).  They take something out of my SS for Medicare, a few hundred, maybe $170.

My coverage seems to be solid though I've been healthy enough not to use it much.  My wife uses it more and she says it's good coverage.

I personally feel "comfortable", as "we" like to say.  I noted my IRA crested a number I never thought I'd see and then the "Kamala Crash" happened, and I pulled some out to pay bills, and now it crested that figure again today. 

For me, being "comfortable" means I'm not going to see a bill that stresses me and we can do "stuff" we want to do without worrying, but it is far short of paying for Delta One tickets etc.  I'll stay in Comfort seats.  Our cruises take a chunk, but manageable.
I can relate.  I wouldn't consider myself wealthy but I am comfortable.   I can also say I can't imagine that I would see a bill that stresses me out.  If we want to go out we go out.  If we see something we want we buy it.  Our major expense is also our cruises.  we have taken 4 cruises this years and 1 other trip and have 1 more cruise this year and 6 cruises scheduled for next year.  However we planned our retirement with 2 years of extensive traveling and then will back down to a couple of trips a year after that.  We could not keep up the pace of travel for the rest of our lives but wanted to see the things and do the things we wanted while we are able.  Seen too many people wait and then die or become unhealthy and can't do things.   
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Riffraft on August 23, 2024, 12:51:14 PM
How Much You Need To Be in the Top 5% in Every State (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/personalfinance/how-much-you-need-to-be-in-the-top-5-in-every-state/ss-AAVm7Bl?ocid=msedgntp&pc=DCTS&cvid=ca3549649d7d4bd8871728991b8ac3a1&ei=17)
That is income not net worth.  As far as income I am on the low end but most would consider me well off.  Income is a nice measure but it far from tells the whole story. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 23, 2024, 12:52:27 PM
That is income not net worth.  As far as income I am on the low end but most would consider me well off.  Income is a nice measure but it far from tells the whole story.
Yep, I'm aware of what it was.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 23, 2024, 12:53:51 PM
One factor in travel is aging.  If you wait too late, it's too late.  Travel can be stressful obviously.  I can see a time when I think "I'm done, it's too much travail for me."

Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on August 23, 2024, 01:57:44 PM
We have been very conservative on our spending this year. Only trip was to Cabo in January, and then random trips to IL/WI.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 23, 2024, 02:07:47 PM
We've traveled quite a bit obviously.  With the economy obviously doing GREAT with record stock market levels, I'm eager to spend it while I can.

I'm being a bit facetious.

Our big trip is a 30 day cruise in Asia in March.  And Istanbul is coming up in a few weeks.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 23, 2024, 02:10:24 PM
Why did Constantinople get the works?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 23, 2024, 02:17:13 PM
One factor in travel is aging.  If you wait too late, it's too late.  Travel can be stressful obviously.  I can see a time when I think "I'm done, it's too much travail for me."
Yeah, that's one reason we're doing Ireland soon. My MIL and wife's stepdad have never been out of the country, and they're 70+. They're currently in good health, but time is ticking. We don't think they'd take a trip like this alone, and my wife has wanted to go to Ireland for a LONG time. 

So we're going now because it essentially takes away any excuse they'd have for not taking the trip, since I'll be there as the trip "chaperone" and take the stress out lol. A lot of trust they're putting in me :57:
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 23, 2024, 02:23:11 PM
I prefer the  term "Byzantium", even though I'm not sailing there.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 23, 2024, 02:23:29 PM
A beer-lover "chaperoning" in Ireland.

Yeah this is not gonna end well... :)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 23, 2024, 02:23:59 PM
Oh, and take it to the Travel Unimpressions Thread!
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 23, 2024, 02:29:30 PM
Elizabeth Warren, CNBC host spar over Kamala Harris's economic proposals (thehill.com) (https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4844349-elizabeth-warren-cnbc-host-joe-kernen-kamala-harris-economic-plan/)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 23, 2024, 02:40:02 PM
Yeah, that's one reason we're doing Ireland soon. My MIL and wife's stepdad have never been out of the country, and they're 70+. They're currently in good health, but time is ticking. We don't think they'd take a trip like this alone, and my wife has wanted to go to Ireland for a LONG time.

So we're going now because it essentially takes away any excuse they'd have for not taking the trip, since I'll be there as the trip "chaperone" and take the stress out lol. A lot of trust they're putting in me :57:

Where in Ireland?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 23, 2024, 02:49:53 PM
Where in Ireland?
Quick side jaunt to Cliffs of Moher, couple days around Killarney, and then a few days in Dublin. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MaximumSam on August 23, 2024, 03:37:23 PM
Quick side jaunt to Cliffs of Moher, couple days around Killarney, and then a few days in Dublin.
That's cool. When I was in law school I studied abroad in Oxford, but spent two weeks in Ireland before hand. I enjoyed the random walks around the countryside. Finding thousand year old buildings just hanging out on a path was special.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Riffraft on August 23, 2024, 04:10:04 PM
We've traveled quite a bit obviously.  With the economy obviously doing GREAT with record stock market levels, I'm eager to spend it while I can.

I'm being a bit facetious.

Our big trip is a 30 day cruise in Asia in March.  And Istanbul is coming up in a few weeks.
We have a 36 day in April/May next year going across the altantic starting in San Juan,  Hitting Islands along the way to Portugal and then covering the mediterrean Spain, France, Italy, down to Egypt and finish in Istanbul.  26 stops along the way. The rest are 7 to 10 day trips. Mexican riveria, western Carribbean, Hawaii, New England/Canada coast.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Riffraft on August 23, 2024, 04:12:24 PM
Oh, and take it to the Travel Unimpressions Thread!

Never was a great fan of Guiness until I went to the Guiness Warehouse in Dublin. Turns out it make a big difference where and how it is served.  Drank it all through Ireland and England. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 26, 2024, 07:13:30 AM
Dividend stocks as a hot play into fall due to Fed and interest rates (cnbc.com) (https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/24/dividend-stocks-as-a-hot-play-into-fall-due-to-fed-and-interest-rates.html)

I had moved some holdings in my IRA into shorter term CDs, they were paying 5.3% or so, now they are under 5%.  I still have a lot of dividend stocks, including an ETF, SCHD, that has done well over time.  A good dividend stock, to me, is not the ones with the highest raw number, but one that is decent now but has good prospects, and a history, of increasing their payment, which has to be based on decent overall company growth.

Quite a few drug stocks pay a nice dividend, and they can be more risky than say consumer stocks like KO.  Some regional bank stocks I like, like KEY, they've done well since dropping pretty hard about a year or so back.

The stock markets are saying the US economy is doing pretty well, at least shorter term, but we all know they can be driven by Fed actions (as is the case today I think).  My GUESS is the Fed cuts 25 bps in September, not 50, and the markets react negatively on that news, while going up with the anticipation of maybe a 50.  

One watch out for careful investors is your balance between "stocks and bonds", when stocks go up a lot, your preferred ratio, whatever it is, say it's 60:40, can become 80-20 if you don't reallocate and rebalance.  That's one thing I try and eyeball myself.

It would be unusual to have the stock market reaching new highs if the US economy wasn't on fairly sound footing.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 26, 2024, 06:43:49 PM
The national average for a gallon of regular has fallen more than 20 cents since May and is now at $3.38 — about 47 cents lower than this time a year ago. Experts say the trend is likely to continue in the coming months, possibly leading to $3-a-gallon gasoline for the first time since 2021.

According to AAA, as of Thursday, the price per gallon for regular gasoline ranged from $4.59 in California, where state gas tax is the highest in the nation, to $2.93 in Mississippi, which has one of the lowest tax rates on fuel.

“For every Mississippi, you have a California to balance it out,” says Andrew Gross, a spokesperson for AAA.

"The late-season wild card is always hurricanes"
A year ago, excessive heat forced Texas refineries to curtail operations, and Hurricane Idalia temporarily shut down oil production in the Gulf of Mexico, which contributed to higher prices. Despite record-breaking heat waves across the country this summer, Texas and Louisiana, where the majority of U.S. refineries are located, haven’t been hit as hard.

“The late-season wild card is always hurricanes,” says Patrick De Haan, head of petroleum analysis at GasBuddy. “If a hurricane makes landfall in a refining area, it can really disrupt things.”

Forecasters have warned of a particularly active hurricane season this year, but things have been quieter than expected — so far. Hurricane Beryl did considerable damage in parts of the Caribbean and caused some disruptions to U.S. refinery operations, but things got back to normal pretty quickly.

Even so, energy analyst Stephen Schork, who is principal and co-founder of The Schork Group, cautions that we are entering peak hurricane season, which falls between mid-August and late October. In 2005, the double wallop of Hurricane Katrina at the end of August, followed by Hurricane Rita nearly a month later, “completely disrupted the market and sent prices extremely higher,” he says.


Despite the devastating effects of Katrina and Rita on oil supplies, those storms were seen as outliers. Typically, late-season storms have less impact on fuel prices, according to Tom Kloza, the global head of energy analysis for the Oil Price Information Service (OPIS). That’s because every year, around August, the industry transitions from a summer blend to a winter blend of gasoline. The winter blend, which evaporates at lower temperatures, is less expensive to produce. And that switch occurs just as the summer driving season is waning.

“The further we get into hurricane season without any major storms making landfall, the better for consumers,” De Haan says.

Global events, EVs and an aging U.S. population affect prices
But other factors are also influencing the current downward trend in gas prices.

Iran, which produces 3 million to 4 million barrels a day, continues to aid its Hamas, Hezbollah and Houthi allies arrayed against Israel amid the ongoing Gaza conflict, but so far that hasn’t affected Tehran’s oil production. “If Iran gets more heavily involved, that could be a problem. … But if things stay relatively contained there, it shouldn’t have much impact on gas prices,” the AAA’s Gross says.

Meanwhile, China’s demand for oil remains relatively low due to its flagging economy. OPEC+ is expected to curtail cuts in production starting in October. And the U.S. is pumping record amounts of petroleum.

“We’ve never produced more oil than we’re producing now,” Gross says. That record production comes as U.S. demand has tapered — from 9.8 million barrels of gasoline per day in recent years to barely 9 million per day now, Gross says.

Kloza points to several factors to explain the change: Remote work means fewer commuters. There are an estimated 3.3 million electric vehicles on U.S. roads, more than twice as many as in 2021. More EVs have helped keep demand for gasoline in check, although Kloza notes that the effect is relatively modest, with every million EVs sold reducing demand by about 22,000 barrels a day. And Kloza also notes the gradually aging U.S. population — older Americans, he says, “tend to drive a lot less.”


Barring unforeseen shocks, it all points to the likelihood of lower fuel prices for some time to come. GasBuddy’s De Haan says pump prices could crack the $3-a-gallon level before Thanksgiving and remain low into next year.

Whether gas prices are up or down, don't blame or thank the president
Of course, this comes as Americans prepare to vote in the general election. U.S. presidents have very little to do with gas prices, but that has rarely stopped them or their opponents from trying to score political points off the issue.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Mdot21 on August 26, 2024, 08:13:17 PM
https://twitter.com/iAnonPatriot/status/1828148044082110857
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 27, 2024, 07:14:47 AM

 There are an estimated 3.3 million electric vehicles on U.S. roads, more than twice as many as in 2021. More EVs have helped keep demand for gasoline in check, although Kloza notes that the effect is relatively modest, with every million EVs sold reducing demand by about 22,000 barrels a day.
So, if EVs grow to say 10 million, that would be another 150,000 BPD off the gasoline market.  That starts to be a dent.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 27, 2024, 07:26:39 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/3bsRFDJ.png)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: FearlessF on August 27, 2024, 08:48:30 AM
So, if EVs grow to say 10 million, that would be another 150,000 BPD off the gasoline market.  That starts to be a dent.
maybe by 2030
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on August 27, 2024, 09:45:32 AM
maybe by 2030
Current projections would say we'll hit 10M well before that. Over 1M were sold in 2023, so even with flat sales volume from 2024->2030 we'd basically be there. 

But despite all the doom and gloom about EV demand, if you look at 2024 Q1 and Q2 EV sales, both quarters were up YoY over 2023.

My guess would be we'll hit 10M EVs on the road in either 2027 or 2028. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 27, 2024, 09:48:46 AM
The S&P bounce back has been nice. 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 27, 2024, 09:58:38 AM
The S&P bounce back has been nice.
(https://i.imgur.com/avfJZeq.jpeg)
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: bayareabadger on August 27, 2024, 10:20:26 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/avfJZeq.jpeg)

The universe aligned so that I had sold a bunch of company stock a few weeks earlier and was able to buy that dip in a solid way.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on August 27, 2024, 10:39:06 AM
Never was a great fan of Guiness until I went to the Guiness Warehouse in Dublin. Turns out it make a big difference where and how it is served.  Drank it all through Ireland and England.
Jeebis the place on the corner had it on Draught prolly will again,ya know March the 17th - sleep the 18th that sort of thing. Smooth going one of my top 10 you get a sweet, toasty, nutty,smoky aroma,with hints of caramel/chocolate. The hops are more resin like.

But really let's just enjoy the stuff
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: MrNubbz on August 27, 2024, 11:01:46 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/3bsRFDJ.png)
Well the defenders of the Alamo,Davey Crockett was from Tennessee,Jim Bowie was from Kentucky,W.B. Travis from S.Carolina. Capt John Forsyth was from NY, James Fannin was from Georgia - he survived the battle but was shot by a firing squad. Gordon C. Jennings was the oldest defender of The Alamo he was from Connecticut. 

 Talk about recruiting talent - Crockett,Bowie, and Travis got most of these guys from out of state,some from over seas.

https://youtu.be/VGF4ibgcHQE
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Cincydawg on August 27, 2024, 02:21:13 PM
Did they have NIL going back then?
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: utee94 on August 27, 2024, 02:23:33 PM
Did they have NIL going back then?

Back then Texico had lots of land to give away.

Now it's just lots of money.
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: jgvol on August 27, 2024, 02:25:22 PM
Did they have NIL going back then?

Yep, and we'd appreciate your donation today.


https://thevolunteerclub.com/pages/about-us 
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 27, 2024, 05:21:42 PM
A lot of people are under the false impression that when rates go down, which I believe they are about to, that ends the problem.


Historically, it’s gone like this:

H- homes are the first to slow
O- orders for goods go next
M- money, known as profits, drop
E- employment goes down 

This is when recession begins.   We are all hoping for a soft landing here, but it’s not a sure thing so keep your fingers crossed as all those signs have fallen right into place   
Title: Re: How do you think the US economy is doing right now?
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 12, 2024, 09:44:10 AM
The ECB cut rates for the second time in three months.

The Fed needs to get off its ass.

https://www.wsj.com/economy/central-banking/ecb-cuts-interest-rates-for-second-time-in-three-months-c50ea730?st=3rduPa&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink