I'd like to know how this business was allowed to operate with such a lack of safety measures.I noticed that you raised this issue earlier but it got lost in political debates.
To be a fishing charter captain and operate a vessel, there are regulations that must be followed.
To be an air pilot for hire, there are regulations that must be followed.
Even a limo driver.
I noticed that you raised this issue earlier but it got lost in political debates.It depends on where it debarks. International Maritime Law could also come into play, but I'm unsure of how it would.
It is a good point and my best guess is that it is probably a combination of two factors:I can't remember where, might have been Key West, but I've seen commercial submarine rides offered. However these were well within US waters so US regulations would obviously apply and the depths were, IIRC, something like 30-50'.
- New technology: Regulations haven't caught up with Submarines that can (or at least almost could) dive to 12,000'
- International Waters: What nation's regulations would even apply?
Diving 12,000+ feet in International Waters is just completely different.
Rescue operations are also completely different. If a coral/fish submarine sank in 30-50' it wouldn't be all that difficult to raise it. Anybody SCUBA certified could go down there and hook a cable to them.
He thinks they are relaxed??I agree with your incredulousness. We all know that the best thing to do would be to go to sleep because you'd use oxygen more slowly but who could actually do that?
**********************************
Guillermo Söhnlein founded OceanGate with Rush in 2009 to offer pricey deep-sea tours to the extremely wealthy in manned submersibles capable of diving up to 13,123 feet. Söhnlein left the company in 2013, turning it over to Rush and reducing his role to a minority shareholder, but the two have kept in touch and last spoke a couple of weeks before the ill-fated Titanic expedition.In a statement posted on Facebook, Söhnlein broke his silence about the missing crew and encouraged the public and the media to remain hopeful for the crew's rescue and avoid speculation about what happened."For the past three days, I have watched from afar as hundreds of dedicated professionals worked tirelessly to find and rescue the crew of the research submersible, Titan, with which communication was lost during its science expedition to the wreck of the Titanic. The pilot is my co-founder and friend, Stockton Rush," Söhnlein wrote.
"Today will be a critical day in this search and rescue mission, as the sub's life support supplies are starting to run low. I'm certain that Stockton and the rest of the crew realized days ago that the best thing they can do to ensure their rescue is to extend the limits of those supplies by relaxing as much as possible. I firmly believe that the time window available for their rescue is longer than what most people think," he said.
I agree with your incredulousness. We all know that the best thing to do would be to go to sleep because you'd use oxygen more slowly but who could actually do that?I thought about that. What would the dead bodies emit though?
On that note, what are the chances that one of the five figured out that they alone would use less oxygen than five people and killed the other four to preserve their own life a bit longer?
I thought about that. What would the dead bodies emit though?No idea but here is an article addressing your earlier question:
Petition to change the thread title to "A sub below" in homage to the old Subway ad.(https://i.imgur.com/ZqdummV.png)
I thought about that. What would the dead bodies emit though?It may be more likely that the father/son duo would have done it if anyone.
So question to all of you who ARE interested... What about this story makes it so compelling?The fact that every news outlet is headlining it. I more or less agree with you, it has some technical interest I think.
I thought about that. What would the dead bodies emit though?Chum for the ghost shrimp at the bottom
So question to all of you who ARE interested... What about this story makes it so compelling?You have a good point. For me, I've been interested in Titanic since way before the recent (as compared to A Night to Remember from the 50's) movie so there is that and also the technical issues.
If they lost power it would get cold inside pretty fast. Obviously if they had a major unplanned disassembly ...My guess is that it did NOT implode. I say that for two reasons:
Am I a weirdo for being completely uninterested in this mess?No. You’re a weirdo for other reasons.
A bunch of obscenely rich people did something unbelievably risky, at massive cost and useful for very little more than bragging rights to other obscenely rich people, and are probably now dead or dying at the bottom of the ocean. I mean, I'm sad for them and their families, but beyond that I'm actually not giving this any thought at all.
I might be more likely to follow this if Stockton Rush was NOT among the occupants, because him being above the surface and having to answer for the culpability of this would be a far more interesting storyline. But he's down there too, and unable to answer for what he's done.
So question to all of you who ARE interested... What about this story makes it so compelling?
You have a good point. For me, I've been interested in Titanic since way before the recent (as compared to A Night to Remember from the 50's) movie so there is that and also the technical issues.Yeah, and interest in the Titanic is part of it, but I feel like that's almost a side tangent to any of this. I mean, these guys weren't going to go down and do a bunch of new scientific or historical exploration of the wreck. They were going for a pleasure dive because they're rich and wanted to boast that they'd done it.
Am I a weirdo for being completely uninterested in this mess?So, I'm with you on all of this.
A bunch of obscenely rich people did something unbelievably risky, at massive cost and useful for very little more than bragging rights to other obscenely rich people, and are probably now dead or dying at the bottom of the ocean. I mean, I'm sad for them and their families, but beyond that I'm actually not giving this any thought at all.
I might be more likely to follow this if Stockton Rush was NOT among the occupants, because him being above the surface and having to answer for the culpability of this would be a far more interesting storyline. But he's down there too, and unable to answer for what he's done.
So question to all of you who ARE interested... What about this story makes it so compelling?
Yeah, and interest in the Titanic is part of it, but I feel like that's almost a side tangent to any of this. I mean, these guys weren't going to go down and do a bunch of new scientific or historical exploration of the wreck. They were going for a pleasure dive because they're rich and wanted to boast that they'd done it.The technical challenges of the rescue efforts fascinate me.
As an engineer, I do think the technical issues could be fascinating. And maybe it'll be QUITE a story if somehow, against all odds, they're rescued and we find out what actually happened. But I feel like at this point it's just another wreck down there on the ocean floor, and a lot less interesting of a wreck than the one they were going to see.
My guess is that it did NOT implode. I say that for two reasons:Would an implosion really make much noise?
- If the reports of banging sounds are true then obviously it didn't implode.
- The control ship must have at least passive sonar (a 100+ year old technology) and an implosion would almost certainly have been audible.
Would an implosion really make much noise?This was how WWII surface ships knew that they had sunk a submarine, they could hear it break up. That is my "source".
This was how WWII surface ships knew that they had sunk a submarine, they could hear it break up. That is my "source".If there was even a pin hole- at 5800PSI, it would fill and explode in less than one second.
I'm sure that distance would lessen the sound but the control ship would have been nearly exactly on top of the sub so it had to be within 12,000 feet or so.
I think the amount of noise would depend on suddenness. If it sprang a leak and filled up, probably not much sound. If it cracked/shattered (my understanding is that Carbon Fiber does that when it fails), that would have made a lot of racket.
At least that is my guess but I'm not an expert.
The technical challenges of the rescue efforts fascinate me.What about the financial ones shouldn't this come out of their company coffers? Sorry not sorry
If there was even a pin hole- at 5800PSI, it would fill and explode in less than one second.Yes it would fill quickly, but would it implode?
US Coast Guard says they found the tail cone 1,600 feet away from the rest of the sub.14000 or so feet down? Over in milliseconds?
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/americas/live-news/titanic-missing-sub-oceangate-06-22-23/index.html
That is clearly a catastrphic implosion. How did the control ship not hear it?
If the surface ship had any kind of passive sonar it would almost certainly be heard. I don't know what would lead to such a catastrophic hull failure of course, maybe something at a seam of the port window. If a leak started they'd loose buoyancy quickly and sink.I don’t think you understand. And this is not coming from me. This is coming from the engineers who were talking about the situation.
14000 or so feet down? Over in milliseconds?I'm with @Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) on this:
no chance it would be heard. Imagine taking a small, loose dirt ball in you hand, the size of a marble. Now crush it between your forefinger and thumb, until it turns to dust. How much noise does that make?
If the surface ship had any kind of passive sonar it would almost certainly be heard. I don't know what would lead to such a catastrophic hull failure of course, maybe something at a seam of the port window. If a leak started they'd loose buoyancy quickly and sink.The surface ship should have been equipped with passive sonar and they *SHOULD* have heard the implosion.
"Again, this was a catastrophic implosion of the vessel, which would have generated a significant broadband sound down there that the sonar buoys would have picked up," Rear Adm. John Mauger, the commander of the First Coast Guard District said, while also noting that he would check again with experts on any possible connection.
I'm with @Cincydawg (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=870) on this:The surface ship should have been equipped with passive sonar and they *SHOULD* have heard the implosion.Well- they didn’t. So, there is that.
Yes it is over in milliseconds but that makes it more not less audible. That crushing makes noise and sound travels MUCH further in water than air. I *THINK* they should have heard it.
I would guess the sound was picked up by our SOSUS underwater listening devices. The left from the top dot and headed south to the Titanic site lower yellow dot.Ok. You would guess. But they are saying it wasn’t.
(https://i.imgur.com/G0RbmJM.png)
12,000 feet is 2.2 miles. What kind of sonar did the mothership have? And more importantly, was someone monitoring the sonar at all times, and is there a recording of the live sonar? I'm betting no.
A previous passenger is saying they lost contact on all four trips he did on the sub (I guess he was employee). They would have been around 9,000 feet at the point of lost contact, which might not change anything.Welp.
Contact was lost with the Titan one hour and 45 minutes into its descent. Based on accounts from previous passengers who reported it took roughly two and a half hours to reach the Titanic wreckage, the vessel could have descended about 8,750 feet before losing contact.
Welp.CDawg, you were absolutely correct.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-navy-detected-titan-sub-implosion-days-ago-6844cb12?st=tmqd4va55vpnzky&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
CDawg, you were absolutely correct.I came here to share the same article. The Navy did detect it but they weren't 100% sure it was that particular sub imploding so they didn't go public but they did alert the incident commander so the search and rescue people probably knew or were at least fairly certain that there was no race against time and no lives to be saved.
It had been reported that nothing was picked up, but it turns the US Navy did- right when it happened. They apparently didn’t want to cast to much pessimism on the search- not knowing for sure what they heard.
US Coast Guard says they found the tail cone 1,600 feet away from the rest of the sub.Not as good as advertised
https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/americas/live-news/titanic-missing-sub-oceangate-06-22-23/index.html
That is clearly a catastrphic implosion. How did the control ship not hear it?
This could be interesting.From the article:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/titanic-subs-deadly-implosion-draws-investigation-d47398d3?st=nscwfko2q1eu4ix&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink
SOSUS has been a thing for the US for a long, long time. I don't think it's existence is top secret, it's capabilities are. After all, it did detect he soviet sub that went down back in the 70's, and they knew where it went down and tried to bring it back up, and partially succeeded.
The term "sonar buoy" is different from the SOSUS (and other) detection devices. The SOSUS detectors located the Thresher back in the day.Also of note and related to the comments above:
66 Years of Undersea Surveillance | Naval History Magazine - February 2021 Volume 35, Number 1 (usni.org) (https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2021/february/66-years-undersea-surveillance)
I don't know much about carbon fiber characteristics beyond light weight and good tensile strength. Common polymers do poorly under repeated stress/strain situations (fatigue). Our subs all use steel hulls, so far as I know.
I don't know much about carbon fiber characteristics beyond light weight and good tensile strength. Common polymers do poorly under repeated stress/strain situations (fatigue). Our subs all use steel hulls, so far as I know.This sub did make numerous prior trips to the Titanic wreck site so maybe the Carbon Fiber weakened from repeated contraction/expansion and eventually could no longer withstand the immense pressure so it imploded.
They imply in the article that carbon fiber may not be a good material for submarines. They don't go into detail but it sounds like it does not handle the repeated stress as well as very high grade steel or titanium.I've read a couple things where the ship was made of carbon fiber and titanium, which violated what other people thought would work because they corrode each other? He was very proud of making it work, but... That's not a topic I know anything about, but it is interesting.
I've read a couple things where the ship was made of carbon fiber and titanium, which violated what other people thought would work because they corrode each other? He was very proud of making it work, but... That's not a topic I know anything about, but it is interesting.I hadn't heard the corrosion issue (does Carbon Fiber corrode?) but I had heard it mentioned that one difficulty with multiple materials is that they contract at different rates under pressure. That can cause issues because parts that match up exactly at the surface may not match up once you are 12,000 ft down facing 6,000 psi.
if a tree falls in the forest ...Does it hit the pope dropping a duece?
and there's no one there to hear it....
The book "Hunt for Red October" is actually a pretty good overview of the navy's sound detection capabilities and tactics. Not the movie, the book.Clancy was known for the amount of research he put into a book
Clancy was known for the amount of research he put into a bookI've read quite a few of his books, and yes the research really stands out. They say that he had access to semi-secret stuff, as long as he agreed to not show the full capabilities. Apparently Reagan was a huge fan, and fed his knowledge base. I think HFRO was before he had access, the later novels he knew a lot of stuff.
Paywall.
For @betarhoalphadelta (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19) , @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) and everyone else questioning our interest in Titanic:
https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-the-titanic-keeps-drawing-us-in-f75bf9fa?cx_testId=3&cx_testVariant=cx_170&cx_artPos=6&mod=WTRN#cxrecs_s
Some here actually are. I took some materials and metallurgy courses in college, but I'm not an expert. It is interesting though.
Now everyone is an expert on polymers and titanium and secret navy radar and all that nonsense. It's silly.
.SONAR, that isn't the same as RADAR. The media hype drama, and this afforded them drama. It's akin to when some reasonably good looking usually blonde female goes missing in Aruba, it's drama, people lap it up on otherwise slow news days.
Now everyone is an expert on polymers and titanium and secret navy radar and all that nonsense. It's silly.
Paywall.Economists often run into the problem of trying to explain Why People Are Interested In Things. Better to accept there is no answer. Better for your mental health, especially for when you have kids and see what they are interested in.
I'm sure the article talks about humanity's obsession with exploration and blah blah blah, but I still don't get it. 5 people died. They were doing something very dangerous and died. Duh?
5 veterans probably offed themselves today. Hippos probably killed 5 people in Africa this week.
Is it the cost? An expensive death is more noteworthy?
So odd.
.
Now everyone is an expert on polymers and titanium and secret navy radar and all that nonsense. It's silly.
Paywall.And to be honest, I understand fascination with the Titanic. I just didn't understand the fascination with obscenely rich people doing stupid stuff and paying the ultimate price for it. I don't draw the parallel that because they were going down to see the Titanic, that this ultimately has anything to do with the Titanic. So I don't know why someone would ascribe Titanic fascination to this idiocy.
I'm sure the article talks about humanity's obsession with exploration and blah blah blah, but I still don't get it. 5 people died. They were doing something very dangerous and died. Duh?
5 veterans probably offed themselves today. Hippos probably killed 5 people in Africa this week.
Is it the cost? An expensive death is more noteworthy?
So odd.
.
Now everyone is an expert on polymers and titanium and secret navy radar and all that nonsense. It's silly.
Economists often run into the problem of trying to explain Why People Are Interested In Things. Better to accept there is no answer. Better for your mental health, especially for when you have kids and see what they are interested in.Yeah, because economists make a critical mistake of assuming a rational actor :57:
Clearwater man who traveled to the Titanic wreckage believes Titan submersible was never safe (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/clearwater-man-who-traveled-to-the-titanic-wreckage-believes-titan-submersible-was-never-safe/ar-AA1cUMWw?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=dfb7b9af96114be98c2b0955ae09e108&ei=14)it was safe until it wasn't
That hopefully is not new learning. The "news media" with few exceptions are "for profit", which is a way of saying "they need ratings", which is a way of saying "they have to entertain". This is why I lean to the various business news channels, their "clients" are much less likely to tolerate pure entertainment.But there is a large chasm between news stories that are genuinely important and one where 5 people died doing an optional activity.
And to be honest, I understand fascination with the Titanic. I just didn't understand the fascination with obscenely rich people doing stupid stuff and paying the ultimate price for it. I don't draw the parallel that because they were going down to see the Titanic, that this ultimately has anything to do with the Titanic. So I don't know why someone would ascribe Titanic fascination to this idiocy.I understand the fascination with the Titanic for people back in 1912. Not now. Not 30 years ago. It was big, it hit an iceberg, it sank. Why give a shit now? I went on a cruise ship that dwarfs the Titanic and I guess since it didn't sink, nobody cares. Hell, it would have been amazing if it struck an iceberg, as it was in the Caribbean, lol.
That said, I heartily enjoy the discussions about titanium and carbon fiber. That's learning some new stuff that's a HELL of a lot more interesting than rich people dying from taking risks they shouldn't have.
I'm convinced Bigfoot is real. There are many. They aren't what we think they are, though. Instead, they're regular guys who at some point in their past read too many opinions from too many people, watched too much news and perhaps witnessed the mainstream morphing of opinions being called news, and just walked out. They walked out deep in the woods and after a while ran out of shaving cream and wore their boots out... and adapted.I think you would make a great bigfoot Drew
I may become a Bigfoot. It kinda makes sense.
I think you would make a great bigfoot DrewThat is perhaps the best way I've ever personally encountered the instruction if not urging to pursue intercourse alone and in my spare time.
it was safe until it wasn'thttps://twitter.com/i/status/1672335083733131266
I'm convinced Bigfoot is real. There are many. They aren't what we think they are, though. Instead, they're regular guys who at some point in their past read too many opinions from too many people, watched too much news and perhaps witnessed the mainstream morphing of opinions being called news, and just walked out. They walked out deep in the woods and after a while ran out of shaving cream and wore their boots out... and adapted.The original off the grid aboriginals
I may become a Bigfoot. It kinda makes sense.
no interest in going under the surface in a submarine for any reasonMaybe to find out where the walleye are holed up at. Kinda ups your odds of snagging a few
S.A.S. is an ignoranusFIFY,unbelievable how unprepared and inaccurate that unhinged halfwit is. Twice I heard him praise guys who weren't even or had been playing because he really doesn't follow sports as closely as those who tune in. Last winter he was 100% wrong on some proclomation he got panned for - evidently it happens with distressing frequency. I hope the guy who fixes his brakes or does his taxes is that competent